--- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@...> wrote:
>
> --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.answers.com/laryngeal%20sac
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any link of the trigeminal nerve or facial nerve
> > > > > > > > to the larynx or hyoid?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > m3d,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd wondered about the significance of mountain gorillas
> > > > > > lying on their backs in the sun, which is more common
> > > > > > than I would have expected otherwise. Being at higher
> > > > > > elevations means more humidity and less oxygen in the
> > > > > > air, cool nights would seem to encourage a thicker
> > > > > > coat of insulatory fur and warmth retention in the
> > > > > > breath.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Guess they have become acclimatised to life at a
> > > > > higher elevation (don't think the Albertine Rift
> > > > > - cloud forests, are anything like the Tibetan
> > > > > plateau though) ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > One might consider the opposite conclusion, that air
> > > > > > sacs and/or paranasal sinuses are requisite for rainforest
> > > > > > primates, including those at higher elevations? It's
> > > > > > those that live on plains that tend
> > > > > > to not have either air sacs or paranasals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also read that orangs (2 per one article) get laryngeal
> > > > > > air sac infections at times.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wasn't a connection I would have had made with
> > > > > respiratory infections, but it is obvious when
> > > > > you think about it ...
> > > > >
> > > > > What is exhaled into air-sacs - moist warm air
> > > > > from the lungs, possibly hosting bacteria - could
> > > > > linger in the air sacs, leading to infections of
> > > > > the air sacs themselves and possibly reinfection
> > > > > the throat and lungs.
> > > > >
> > > > > (there are over 200 viruses currently, that can
> > > > > cause upper respiratory tract infections)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Interesting in regarding infants as well. (see the
> > > > > > thread on Nitric Oxide & humming). I think mountain
> > > > > > gorilla mortality is relatively high, though that
> > > > > > must reflect human interference and infections.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DD
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wouldn't blame everything on human interference. There
> > > > > are numerous viral infections that humans, gorillas an
> > > > > chimps have been passing back and forth for millions
> > > > > of years (humans possibly evaded one that was infecting
> > > > > chimps, gorillas between 3 an 4 millions years ago, by
> > > > > being out of Africa).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---m3d
> > > > >
> > > > > (will have a look at your thread, on
> > > > > nitric oxide & humming)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gorillas/air sacs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [quote]
> > > > > > > Diseases of the Respiratory Tract:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The mountainous climate of the Virunga Volcanoes
> > > > > > > is chilly and damp, and the gorillas seem not to
> > > > > > > be optimally adapted to these conditions although
> > > > > > > they have been living there since many thousand
> > > > > > > years. Due to the moist climate, gorillas frequently
> > > > > > > succumb to diseases of the respiratory tract, notably
> > > > > > > pneumonia, which are the most common cause of death
> > > > > > > in the mountain gorillas of the Virunga Volcanoes.
> > > > > > > Wild gorillas may suffer from colds, coughs, rhinitis
> > > > > > > sinusitis and inflammations of the laryngeal sac,
> > > > > > > especially in times of heavy precipitation. If the
> > > > > > > weather is fine, mountain gorillas can often be seen
> > > > > > > lying in the sun, while gorillas in the lowland
> > > > > > > generally seek the coolness of the shade.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> http://www.berggorilla.org/english/gjournal/texte/9disease.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would seem from this article on gorilla diseases, that
> > > > > > > heavy precipitation (getting a soaking), can lead to
> > > > > > > inflammation of the laryngeal air sacs in gorillas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moisture and air sacs incompatible?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---m3d
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nitric Oxide is emitted during humming and speech/song.
> > > >
> > > > A backfloating mother humming while her infant suckled would
> transmit
> > > > potentially infectious diseases, so production of nasal NO during
> > > > suckling would be selected for, note strong visual and auditory
> > > > component of nursing, eyes to eyes, unlike (all?) other
mammals, and
> > > > unlike most, the recurring demand for milk (some mammals nurse
only
> > > > once or twice a day, noter correlation to colic in human infants).
> > > >
> > > > Apes (Apiths, see 3yo Selam dik1-1) produce NO in their larynx
> > > > (probably strongly associated with or inside the laryngeal air
> sacs?)
> > > >
> > > > Humans have protruding noses (nasosinus NO), apes don't. Gibbons
> sing
> > > > without hooting and have slightly protruding noses (nasosinus
NO?).
> > > > Siamangs also have slightly protruding noses and also slightly
> > > > different lar. air sacs and hoot while calling, so not sure about
> > > > their NO production, their sacs may have enlarged beyond the
> previous
> > > > state.
> > > >
> > > > Apes nurse while seated usually, the face and eyes are less
> connected
> > > > than in in ancient Homo while backfloating but similar to modern
> > > > humans who nurse while seated.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Humans can click quite loudly underwater (only) while prone if the
> > > > mouth is wide open full of air while tongue clicking, this prone
> > > > position matches the bell-jar nose in Homo.
> > >
> > > Note that prone clicking and supine humming seem to send sound
> > > out in the wrong direction, away from the dive partner, however
> > > humans unlike dolphins do not use directional biosonar underwater. >
> > Sound in water travels quickly in all directions in a spherical
> > > pattern from the source, so no matter what direction the click
> > > or hum was sent, it would be heard in all directions immediately.
> > > The listener could easily judge the distance, but not the
> > > direction, of the sound producer, so vision remained significant
> > > to the diver but less so to the backfloater who may have kept
> > > the eyes slitted to reduce sun glare. The diver during forward
> > > motion (pushing through water)
> > > probably kept the eyes slitted (partial-dark adaptation), but
> > > while at depth kept eyes open for better vision and
> > > accommodation (dark adaptation).
> > >
> >
> >
> > While back floating the face/mouth would out of the
> > water, but the ears would be in the water, would
> > you hear a clicking/humming sound emitted above
> > the surface of the water?

"We know that sound moves. How fast does it move? Sound moves about
1500 meters per second in seawater. That's approximately 15 football
fields end-to-end in one second!! Pretty impressive! (Sound moves much
more slowly in air, at about 340 meters per second, only 3 football
fields a second)". (sound in seawater & fresh is almost same)

Note that both prone clicking at depth and supine humming at surface
both produce sound underwater.

Humming while exhaling sends sounds out of the nostrils or both
nostrils and mouth which are above the water surface, however the
sound is actually produced in the larynx at the glottal folds which is
submersed, like the ears, while backfloating.

This means for example the infant nursing on the mother hears the
air-born sound (laryngeal-nasal humming or laryngeal-oral song), while
the partner below hears primarily the water-born laryngeal vibration
of the humming but perhaps not any verbal consonants.

One possible reason why humans don't have SC fat covering the throat
especially around the adams apple may be because it would weaken
(insulate) the (hum/song/speech) sound transmission.

Submerged prone clicking, due to it's open mouth (bell jar) method,
would travel directly from the air entrapped oral cavity to the water,
without skin or fat to obstruct or insulate the sound. Therefore the
chubby cheeks did not interfere with click sound transmissions. (That
had confused me earlier, when trying to click with closed mouth.)

I must say this, people.

I could not have made this stuff up (fictional) in a million years.

It just would never have occurred to me to imagine it,

underwater open mouth clicking,
clear vision at dark depth followed by whalespout sun sneezing,
supine humming in eupnea with nursing infant,
tails lost due to aquatic air-trap sacs,
catnaps while backfloating in apnea,

It really is stranger than fiction!

Yet it's biology.

DD




>
> Water carries sound far better than air, whether the sound originated
> in water or adjacent air at the surface. (Ama divers whistle at the
> surface to co-divers, they often dive in somewhat rough water.)
>
> > (underwater, human ears, can't easily discern the
> > point of origin of a sound - those of aquatic
> > mammals, can)
>
> Certainly full time aquatic mammals can hear better than part time
> aquatic mammals, echolocators best of all.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ---m3d
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I've no real doubt that surface supine tonal humming and submersed
> > > > prone tongue clicking (still retained by the terrestrially
isolated
> > > > KhoiSan and in lesser degree amongst others.) Notably the Khoisan
> > > > clicking is interspersed with regular consonants and vowels,
> there is
> > > > no pure click language, I doubt there ever was except while
> > submersed.
> > > >
> > > > Homo erectus and neandertals most likely employed some form of
this,
> > > > with the tongue, palate, teeth affecting and being affected by
this
> > > > novel form of NO transmission and communication.
> > > >
> > > > In addition to humming and speech, how much NO transmission occurs
> > > > during sleep apnea and V Rhinopathy? Since the nasal airway is
> blocked
> > > > then, none. Therefore snoring would be an alternative source of NO
> > > > production, which is probably the more primitive (larynx related
> > > > rather than sinus related, seen in dogs, apes, etc.). If
mother apes
> > > > snore while laying on their sides in the nest while their
> infants are
> > > > near their mouths breathing, it would match human mothers humming
> > > > while nursing.
> > > >
> > > > I would not be surprised if burrowing/nesting animals also
> transmitted
> > > > NO in this way to their altricial young. Nitric Oxide may be
> difficult
> > > > to produce in newborn animals for some reason (the same reason
that
> > > > melanin in the eyes is slow to develop), NO acts as a hormone in
> some
> > > > ways and in blood vessel dilation.
> > > >
> > > > So, AFAICT, some form of Dive Song was indeed used by pre-boat
human
> > > > ancestors, clicking was communication, likely derived from feeding
> > > > style, possibly combined suction feeding and crunching of
crustacean
> > > > or shellfish; and humming was antibiotic and sound
transmission, and
> > > > the earliest human language derived from this.
> > > >
> > > > It's possible that seals have improved vocalization due to
somewhat
> > > > similar methods.
> > > >
> > > > I'm pretty sure parrots didn't backfloat/nurse/transmit NO, so
they
> > > > followed a coincidental parallel path of convergence.
> > > >
> > > > DD
> > > >
> > >
> >
>