Hi Joe:
two comments:
1) If this is truly a NASA website, why is it not part of the NASA web domain?
2) They are copying YOU.  I think YOU should get credit for being the first to
organize such a directory of AWE participants.

I'm not sure what it is, but I have a problem with people coming along after the
fact and trying to take credit for what others have done, and that goes
especially for any government agency, since they have completely ignored this
field for so long while posing as the most cutting edge thinkers in the world.

There is no entity that has slowed my progress more than the government labs and
agencies, promising money and participation for new clean energy ideas, then not
responding in any meaningful way to clear and promising, simple solutions,
offered at great penalty of time and effort to them on the silver platters they
demand.

Anyway, thanks much for the heads-up on this - I joined, and my membership is
"awaiting approval".
I had to type in the word GE Ecomagination to join, which is also irritating, as
they are similarly liars like the federal labs, having taken an inordinate
amount of my time for absolutely NOTHING with their empty promises.

I'm recommending a class action suit by all entrants into the GE Ecomagination
Challenge to insist that they actually DO provide the promised $200,000,000 to
the ideas proposed in their contest.  I am so tired of the big liars and their
big lies while we small players beat our heads against the wall on low budgets,
accomplishing all that they say is impossible.

:)
Doug Selsam

Doug,

The cyclic history of atmospheric CO2 content follows your temp curve quite nicely, UNTIL the last 200 years, when the CO2 content has gone from an historical average of about 240 ppm (with cyclic fluctuations occuring fairly uniformly between 280 and 200 ppm - corresponding to the warming/cooling eras) TO its current peak of 375 ppm  and HEADED STRAIGHT UP (50 ppm of this increase occurring in the last 50 yrs).

SO, yes, if modern man hadn't been become enthralled with all the things he can do with FIRE and HEAT, we would likely be poised for the next ice age.....but to so state unequivocally, would be to ignore the role that CO2 seems to play in the atmosphere - I guess you could argue that point from now on, but the periodic +/- 40 ppm CO2 level variations sure correlate nicely with the historic temperature periods on your plot :-))!

DaveL

Sorry Dave L., I missed your response and searched but cannot find it, but would be interested to read it, as I know you are a "thinking man".
:)
Doug S.

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Dave Lang <SeattleDL@...> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> I did comment on your ice-age graph, but you seem to have chosen to
> ignore it :-/
>
> DaveL
>

A classification allows a faster understanding of systems, advantages, disadvantages according their common main features,and that with a concise presentation.Studies of possible uses of systems will be easier. The joined presentation allows furthering insertion of other systems,corrections and improves of presentation. Links on websites or videos can be created.It would be interesting to keep steps before a conversion into PDF which could be a document for presentations towards organizations like NASA.

PierreB

> Message du 21/11/10 20:19
> De : "Joe Faust"
> A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : [AWECS] Re: AWEHSS
>
>  

>

> >>The objective of this system study is to assemble a complete picture of these systems to help establish a foundation for this future industry, and support the wide variety of concept approaches. << NASA

> Toward that objective:
> http://www.energykitesystems.net/AWECSclassification/index.html
> All are welcome to make advances for the Classification Challenge, so that all potentials are set on view.

> Lift,

> JoeF

> Message du 22/11/10 17:03
> De : "Joe Faust"
> A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : Re: [AWECS] Re: AWEHSS [1 Attachment]
>
>  

>

> Thank you, Pierre!

The PDF attached has no edits by me.

The tree format surely will be one of the leading favored presentations.

In PDFs, I can form Internet links per word or symbol, if you supply the URLs. 

Further versions, as you wish, can be formed.  

I am envisioning various treed versions for various purposes.

And even perhaps stepped versions that grow from one page to another view to yet other views.  Others will work in this direction as you are working.

Be sure to send this to people that you think might want to contribute to the Classification Challenge committee.     

 http://energykitesystems.net/AWECSclassification/PierreB/CLASSIFICATIONforAWECSbyPBnov2010.pdf

[ ] Pierre, I need some help in understanding your phrase:
> "It would be interesting to keep steps before a conversion into PDF"

Please give me your meaning in French and perhaps another version in English. Thanks.

Did you mean that we could make the links to websites and videos on the tree presentation before we convert to PDF?       That will eventually be done.   

In versions of classifications, when a company name is used, then I am wanting to be sure all companies are presented. 

Thanks for continuing work on the classificatin challenge.

I have not sent your version to anyone, but the PDF is linked from the working page for AWCCC at

http://www.energykitesystems.net/AWECSclassification/index.html which is open to public.

Your suggestions and directives are ever invited.

Do you feel the version just presented holds free-freeflight methods?  Traction over land?  Combined methods that have flygen and groundgen in one system?  

If AWECS is said without qualification, then I am aiming to face the scale challenge.  When a presentation is intended for the large-scale AWECS for satisfying grid needs, then title distinction would discern the matter.   

If an AWECS is using mechanical energy for direct work like sawing, grinding, pumping fluids, pounding, charging flywheels, moving objects, etc, then no electrical generator is involved.

Soon,

JoeF

In 2004 Peter Lynn was seemingly coming close to Richard Miller's mid-1960s dynamic soaring of free-flight using HTA coupled with HTA body while perhaps suggesting some twists and turn of his own.   Dale C. Kramer  has been furthering analysis of dynamic free-flight soaring of  two-kite-on one free-flight tether (no tether to ground).    In the 2004 essay of concepts

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829141827/www.inet.net.nz/~cbrent/pete/

there are many things that might be discussed.    We have paragliding pilots soaring, but not flying in the sense of Miller and Kramer.      The easy two-body kite with water paravane coupling has been the more easily reached event.    A let-go toy kite with appropriate tether dragging can fly out for long distances with the appropriate tether becoming mooring also for the system as the system travels with ground path that can be very long; instead of wrestlying with "appropriate design of tether" one may just design a lower-attached kite; letting things go, though may break may laws and regulations and cause damage to people and property, so this discourse is not a suggestion to let-go things in the air space without appropriate control of system-stopping and clearance of air space, etc. 

Has Peter Lynn advanced on his 2004 essay?   I have no offer on that question; Peter might answer such.      

And certainly for over 20 years Wayne German as also been contemplating tethered free flying wings.   In the 1970s we took pleasure in hang gliding circles and in Low & Slow to review Miller's earlier essay and description in Without Visible Means of Support book.   The recent company on LTA with HTA coupled by tether is in this family of concerns for AWECS.    Kramer confirmed to me in 2009 conference that he envisioned RATs on his coupled aircraft tethered free-flying wings. Scaling to the tons mentioned by Peter Lynn for wind-turbine purposes posits his essay into this AWECS forum.

 A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

JoeF

Bouncing off DaveS'  tetherless dynamic-soaring FEG:

That brings to mind a tethered AWECS flygen that aloft charges supercapacitor and then swoops down to drag whiskers to off-load charge to ground supercapacitors; then the TFEG swoops up again to mine the wind again.  No conductive tether, but a plain kite tether is used.  While the gathering is being done aloft, the ground supercapacitor spends its charge to store energy, say, pump hydro, or do work in order to empty the charge in readiness for the next swoop event.  

JoeF

> Message du 22/11/10 23:48
> De : "Joe Faust"
> A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
> Copie à :
> Objet : [AWECS] Non-conductive-tether TFEG
>
>  

>

> Bouncing off DaveS'  tetherless dynamic-soaring FEG:

> That brings to mind a tethered AWECS flygen that aloft charges supercapacitor and then swoops down to drag whiskers to off-load charge to ground supercapacitors; then the TFEG swoops up again to mine the wind again.  No conductive tether, but a plain kite tether is used.  While the gathering is being done aloft, the ground supercapacitor spends its charge to store energy, say, pump hydro, or do work in order to empty the charge in readiness for the next swoop event.  

> JoeF

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/december-2008/daily-planet-decembe\
r-2-2008/#clip118301

I tried posting this and others to that NASA(?) site but got a message that I,
as a mere earthling, was not allowed to post.  I thought the reason to join was
to post videos.  I tried writing to the e-mail address that let me know I had
been approved, to submit the links to them, but have not heard back.  It seems
like the video selection there is pretty limited - hopefully they are just
getting started.
I'm still trying to figure out if this is really anything to do with NASA.  Note
the site is not part of a NASA domain.  Anyone have any info?

Here are links to 3 more videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddliyfspmr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOGqURa1a8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55HfnGR6kQ
Doug S.

Apparently the step to Dougs design and Kitepower was one step too far for GE,
so they decided to go for the in-between solution... an inflatable wind turbine.
Read more here :

http://inhabitat.com/ges-ecomagination-challenge-unveils-5-winning-energy-soluti\
ons/2/



--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <doug@...> wrote:
>
> Hi to all from this list and other lists, who have take a few moments to cast
a vote for my "Shocking Sky Serpent" entry into the GE Ecomagination Challenge.
>
> Recent results of contests and grant proposals:
>
> 1) NREL: No thanks, that's a job for (the new) ARPA-E;
>
> 2) ARPA-E: No Thanks, we were overwhelmed with responses and it has been "a
learning experience" for us;
>
> 3) GE Ecomagination: Made it to the "GE 100" but was ignored after that "It
has beeen a learning experience" - hey where have I heard that one before? 
Let's make sure they really award $200,000,000;
>
> 4) Masdar Challenge: "We had an overwhelming number of great submissions"
translation: you are just another member of the herd - ignored.
>
> 5) Owens Corning App Challenge: I was a semi-finalist when they last contacted
me (I had not remembered even entering), they had asked for more material.  Best
case scenario for any entity that purports to "help" usher in progress: to give
the already overworked innovator one more assignment, almost always for no
result.  Sorry Owens Corning, I've reached my saturation point with regard to
more assignments.  Either you like what I have or you don't.
> :)
>
> PS here's a question to pursue: how many new wind turbine configurations have
been explored, by all the big official labs combined, in the last 30 years? 
(Could it be zero?) How much money have they taken in to explore new wind energy
technologies in that time?
>
> Why do I often sound cynical and unbelieving?  Well I guess it comes with age
and hearing years and years of talk with little in the way of progress.  I have
not seen any new turbine designs, only resurrections of old designs already
proven not useful.  Only actual progress is progress, not just talking about
progress, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make: to get people who may
make a difference focused on progress rather than empty talk.
>
> Doug Selsam
>

Yes my patents cover inflating the blades,  This is a workaround to the true
solution that is in my patents, of inflating the blades.
Not that complicated.
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "reinhartp" <rein-art@...> wrote:
>
> Apparently the step to Dougs design and Kitepower was one step too far for GE,
so they decided to go for the in-between solution... an inflatable wind turbine.
Read more here :
>
>
http://inhabitat.com/ges-ecomagination-challenge-unveils-5-winning-energy-soluti\
ons/2/
>
>
>
> --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <doug@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi to all from this list and other lists, who have take a few moments to
cast a vote for my "Shocking Sky Serpent" entry into the GE Ecomagination
Challenge.
> >
> > Recent results of contests and grant proposals:
> >
> > 1) NREL: No thanks, that's a job for (the new) ARPA-E;
> >
> > 2) ARPA-E: No Thanks, we were overwhelmed with responses and it has been "a
learning experience" for us;
> >
> > 3) GE Ecomagination: Made it to the "GE 100" but was ignored after that "It
has beeen a learning experience" - hey where have I heard that one before? 
Let's make sure they really award $200,000,000;
> >
> > 4) Masdar Challenge: "We had an overwhelming number of great submissions"
translation: you are just another member of the herd - ignored.
> >
> > 5) Owens Corning App Challenge: I was a semi-finalist when they last
contacted me (I had not remembered even entering), they had asked for more
material.  Best case scenario for any entity that purports to "help" usher in
progress: to give the already overworked innovator one more assignment, almost
always for no result.  Sorry Owens Corning, I've reached my saturation point
with regard to more assignments.  Either you like what I have or you don't.
> > :)
> >
> > PS here's a question to pursue: how many new wind turbine configurations
have been explored, by all the big official labs combined, in the last 30 years?
(Could it be zero?) How much money have they taken in to explore new wind energy
technologies in that time?
> >
> > Why do I often sound cynical and unbelieving?  Well I guess it comes with
age and hearing years and years of talk with little in the way of progress.  I
have not seen any new turbine designs, only resurrections of old designs already
proven not useful.  Only actual progress is progress, not just talking about
progress, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make: to get people who may
make a difference focused on progress rather than empty talk.
> >
> > Doug Selsam
> >
>

Anne Quéméré

Change in a shape in one of the kites used in her Pacific traction efforts:

http://pacific-solo.com/?p=1150

http://pacific-solo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Adrien-2010-67--300x200.jpg

JoeF

I also have some doubt about this site. In any case, somebody has invested some
time and money to do it and obviously for some reason. What I finde good is a
lot of good sorteâ articles. www.energykitesystems.net and so on are lack of
such order.


--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Doug" <doug@...> wrote:
>
>
http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/daily-planet/december-2008/daily-planet-decembe\
r-2-2008/#clip118301
>
> I tried posting this and others to that NASA(?) site but got a message that I,
as a mere earthling, was not allowed to post.  I thought the reason to join was
to post videos.  I tried writing to the e-mail address that let me know I had
been approved, to submit the links to them, but have not heard back.  It seems
like the video selection there is pretty limited - hopefully they are just
getting started.
> I'm still trying to figure out if this is really anything to do with NASA. 
Note the site is not part of a NASA domain.  Anyone have any info?
>
> Here are links to 3 more videos:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddliyfspmr4
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOGqURa1a8g
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55HfnGR6kQ
> Doug S.
>

I think we have to be carefull with such organisations. This group consolidate
enthusiasts and real investigators and consolidation is our power. It costs much
more than hypotetic investmens.

These are distinct from con operations of the underworld.

JoeF

1940-Goofy-Goofy's Glider (HQ) 

 KiteTech

KiteTech Energy Systems, Limited

John Russell Prewer; (GB).
Bill Hampton; (GB).

New link to replace former link:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2010079365

If you are not yet on our AWE community list, please send information to Editor@... 
  Nov. 30, 2010   
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Fly the food to the heights to keep the food cold. Release the food as needed via a glide-down system. Sail or pulley-up food for new storage. It is cold up there!  Burr...    

Needed, perhaps: advanced low-leak kite balloons using hydrogen.  

Want ice?   Collect atmospheric water aloft or send up water to be frozen. Drop-glide the ice cubes back down for local use. 

Are you just too hot and want a cooling?    Is the ground-hugging air just too hot right now?  Let the ever-up AWECS station be your destination; let the wind winch your hot body to the altitudes; enjoy the cool and fresh air with great view.  Take a rocking nap there too!   Enjoy a glide back home when rested.    Want exercise? Then climp up the tether or drop-line by muscle power.

Sell viewing sessions to people in order to obtain funds for paying the AWECS pilot team? Give repeat lifts to those just wanting to get up in order to sky-dive down.   Either fly down free or ride the tether down.

Pump cloud-seeding matter up the compound tether; spray as Ken C. directs to modify weather?

Be in the lifting body; ride-pilot the wing for exericse and fun; let the system be driving a ground generator. Significant g forces will test the strongest athletes.

What have we for using AWECS to directly compress air to recharge an air-car that runs on compressed air?

Meanwhile, some CONOPS are being drafted for presentation to the FAA in the USA.    What similar progress is occurring in Russian, China, Japan, Europe, Africa, Indea, Spain, _____?       AWECS pilots are pilots too! And AWECS pilots aim to be great neighbors on the ground and in the sky.   

How are we doing towards a world-around cableway that has no ground-going cables?  Nodes are upheld by working AWECS. Nodes rise and lower to move a cable-car along and around the world?   Also, energy gained might charge electric motor on the cable-car or be used to keep comfortable temperatures and pressures in the cabin.   Around the world travel without any jet fuel.  Sky Village Forever?

UpperWindpower ™  invites vertical wind-farming art for open publication.  Meshes, fences, nets, matrices, etc.   Recall the protection of London by kite-balloons; such just hints at the beginnings of a huge cubic space wafting with wind-energy conversion complexes.  Even mine the chaotic turbulence aft of first turbines!   How thick might vertical wind-farms be?    Watt-hours per projected land area?

May Haiti find its upperwindpower!

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspatbeta/applicationDetails.do?applicationNo=2009238195

on page is full patent applicaiton instruction document in PDF:  AU-A1

Thread might discuss points in Roberts' instruction.

Inventor:  Bryan William Roberts

---------------------JoeF