Stiof,

Silly me. When I said 'exotic' I meant 'not used very often for
construction purposes etc'.

As for the cutting across the grain, I do recall one huge lump of trunk
that was about 30cm in diameter that had obviously been brought down
with a bronze axe, and was a bugger to cut a slice from with a hand-saw.
I got hand-sore (groan).

Stuart

====================
Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
Licensed Archaeologist
====================

Stuart,

> I'm not sure if it mentions it or not, but check the recent publication
> on the Lisheen Mine Archaeological Project 1996-8, available from
> Wordwell <http://www.wordwellbooks.com/book.php?id=402> Books. I worked
> on the final fieldwork season and we recovered a lot of timber from the
> bog, used in the construction of trackways, and a great many had faces
> that could only have come from Bronze axes. Also worthy of note were the
> nicks and burrs on the axes which showed up as raised scars on the wood.
> We certainly had some trees that would have had a diameter of over 20cm,
> so I guess 20-30 years old? As species go, there were a lot of Alder and
> Oak, but also exotic species like Crabapple (which showed evidence of
> pruning - cider in the BA anyone?).

Damn. I got hold of a copy from the local library recently, but I was looking
for something totally different. It'll ake me weeks to get hold of it again.
Thanks for the pointer, though. I'll let you know what it says in this regard
when I next take a look at it.

Yes, I know bronze axes were used & that the cut marks are clear enough (not
just in this case but elsewhere) to distinguish th type of axe used, and signs
of wear etc on the axe blades. My point really was just that using an axe to cut
across the grain is a real pain. From your time at Lisheen, can you tell us if
the timbers were cut straight across or at an angle to the grain, and if the
latter (which I expect), whether the angle was shallow or steep relative to the
grain.

Oh, last niggly point, when you refer to crabs as 'exotic' I assume you mean
used in ways we might not expect, ie exotic use, rather than in the strict sense
of 'non-native species'?

Stiof
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> Stiof,
>
> As far as I'm aware, most BA charcoal tends to be Oak or Ash.
>
> Stuart

Good. That was what I thought and expected. They're the only native species that
are really abundant islandwide and burn well enough (hot and slow without
spitting and cracking).

Stiof
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Stiof,

As far as I'm aware, most BA charcoal tends to be Oak or Ash.

Stuart

====================
Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
Licensed Archaeologist
====================

I'm not sure if it mentions it or not, but check the recent publication
on the Lisheen Mine Archaeological Project 1996-8, available from
Wordwell <http://www.wordwellbooks.com/book.php?id=402> Books. I worked
on the final fieldwork season and we recovered a lot of timber from the
bog, used in the construction of trackways, and a great many had faces
that could only have come from Bronze axes. Also worthy of note were the
nicks and burrs on the axes which showed up as raised scars on the wood.
We certainly had some trees that would have had a diameter of over 20cm,
so I guess 20-30 years old? As species go, there were a lot of Alder and
Oak, but also exotic species like Crabapple (which showed evidence of
pruning - cider in the BA anyone?).

Stuart

====================
Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
Licensed Archaeologist
====================

Kevin,

> I'm sorry to come back to this if no one wants to talk about it and I
> have been waiting for someone else to point this out, but as I would
> like to know the answer, here goes.

Don't be sorry. This sort of activity is what the group is here for, after all.

> Despite the original question of if a bronze axe was capable of
> handling a large tree, it seems to me that the real question that
> needs answering is did bronze axes actually take out large hardwood
> trees.

Well, the original issue was really about the purpose to which flint and copper
axes were put, but yes, we did get on to bronze pretty fast.

> And perhaps more importantly, if they did, when they did, what
> were the trees used for?  I imagine that answering this question will
> answer the intent of original question, which I take to be something
> like, why would someone work so hard to fell a few trees when they
> could clear a bit of scrub and get as good or better results with half
> the work.

...if they wanted to clear land for farming. (best to keep the context!)

Still, I do agree that understanding what was going on as regards people and
woodland and tools will tell us a lot about the underlying thinking that shaped
the BA landscape.

> Furthermore, as for the hardwood trees, didn't they have specific
> uses?  For example, aren't oaks the primary wood found in structural
> postholes?  Is that the main use of such trees?

I think the main reason oaks are recognised as having this important role is
because posts are bloody big lumps of wood and therefore are more likely to
survive. Oak has a load of other uses, including use for handles for tools that
take a lot of strain (eg spade, pick handle, axe handle) and oak is still used
for similar purposes today, where the wood needs to be strong and disinclined to
split, and fairly rigid rather than flexible (such as ash is).

> If so, is the fact
> significant?

In what way? There was a lot of oak available, it was ideal for the job as it
(if you're using Sessile Oak) grows fairly straight and is quite resistant to
rot (thanks to containing a lot of tannin), so it was ideal for the job. They
could have used ash or Scots pine which both are inclined to grow nice and
straight quite often, but both will decay quicker thn oak. Alder would also do,
but that rots when exposed to the elements even faster than thelast two, as
would birch. At this point the options are getting pretty restricted. The last
three worth even considering are elm, holly and yew. Yew does not seem to have
been a dominant species except in a few small areas and has a habit of growing
into several boles rather than with a single main trunk, holly would be about as
good as ash, but is generally an understory species rather than a dominant
species in woodland in Ireland, and that leaves elm. Elm is a real option, thouh
I confess I don't remember offhand how widespread it was. Worth checking, that.

After these, you're down to considering species that are inappropriate mainly
because if the size trees tend to grow to - wild and bird cherry, rowan, crab
apple, whitethorn, blackthorn, juniper, goat willow etc, and most of these have
a growth habit that makes them utterly useless of making poles of any size.
Aspen grows tall, straight and fast, but the wood is rubbish, even as firewood.
Handy for carving dollies and other objects that require carving but won't
suffer any serious stress. Whitebeam might be an option except that it was not a
common species at all.

So, use of oak seems to be because it is ideal for the job and widely available,
with ash, elm and Scots pine as reasonably available (at least regionally)
alternatives.

> Then what about other trees?

See above.

> Again for example, what
> kind of wood was used in the forges?  Some woods burn better than others.

Do we have any BA metalworking charcoal (or possible metalworking charcoal)? I'm
sure there must have been some found, though I have to say it is not something
I've ever paid attention to. This also raises the question of the types of
methods used in smelting, the structures built for the purpose, etc.

Stiof
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I'm sorry to come back to this if no one wants to talk about it and I
have been waiting for someone else to point this out, but as I would
like to know the answer, here goes.

Despite the original question of if a bronze axe was capable of
handling a large tree, it seems to me that the real question that
needs answering is did bronze axes actually take out large hardwood
trees.  And perhaps more importantly, if they did, when they did, what
were the trees used for?  I imagine that answering this question will
answer the intent of original question, which I take to be something
like, why would someone work so hard to fell a few trees when they
could clear a bit of scrub and get as good or better results with half
the work.

Furthermore, as for the hardwood trees, didn't they have specific
uses?  For example, aren't oaks the primary wood found in structural
postholes?  Is that the main use of such trees?  If so, is the fact
significant?  Then what about other trees?  Again for example, what
kind of wood was used in the forges?  Some woods burn better than others.

Just a thought.
Cheers, Kevin

There's a huge amount of stuff in here, all relating to Tara, but frustratingly
little detail about Barronstown 1.

Still, I present it here for people to read, think about and comment on, good
and bad.

Stiof

#################################

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> * Update on campaign to save the Hill of Tara from the M3 motorway �
> 12
> March 2006
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> * Protest at Baronstown 1
>
>
> A discrete national monument has been discovered in the pathway of the
> M3 motorway, during investigative archaeological excavations. It is
> entitled Baronstown 1, by the NRA, and lies just on the other side of
> the N3, between the hills of Tara and Skryne. It can be seen at:
> http://www.m3motorway.ie/Archaeology/Section2/Baronstown1/
>
> A protest involving local and national activist groups is planned for
> 12.00PM, March 15th, at 'Baronstown 1', a newly discovered national
> monument in the pathway of the M3 motorway. Evidence regarding this
> site was not allowed to be presented in the High Court case, because
> Justice Smyth denied an application for cross-examination of expert
> witnesses.
>
> Maps, photographs and archaeological and historical information about
> the site is available at http://www.tarawatch.org
>
> The route of the M3 motorway was given approval by An Bord Pleanala in
> July 2003. During the course of building the motorway, which will
> stretch 60 km between Clonee and Kells, 38 new archaeological sites
> were found during investigative test-trenching in the stretch between
> Navan and Dunshaughlin. In May 2005 the Minister for the Environment
> gave directions under the National Monuments Act 2004, for the
> excavation and removal of these sites. That decision is being review in
> the courts.
>
> Many of the new sites lie within or near the archaeological complex of
> monuments associated with the Hill of Tara, County Meath. This complex
> has been extensively researched by the Discovery Programme, an
> independent, but State-funded archaeological research unit, over the
> last decade.
>
> TaraWatch maintain that all of these sites, with in the complex, are
> national monuments, because they are part of the larger national
> monument that is the archaeological complex of Tara.  This complex is
> defined in relation to the upstanding defensive features that have
> stood for centuries around the Hill of Tara.  To the east; sites on the
> Hill of Skryne. To the northeast; Rath Lugh. To the north; Rathmiles.
> To the northwest; the linear earthwork. To the west; Ringlestown Rath.
>
> These man-made features, taken in conjunction with the natural features
> of the hills and valley in between create a clearly defined sanctuary
> within, which is a national monument.  This is similar to Glendalough
> National Monument, which encompasses lakes, a valley and numerous
> archaeological features, taken as a whole.
>
> Baronstown is a national monument, even aside from its association with
> tara, because of the spectacular features that lies above and below
> ground.  Its proximity to tara and Skryne only adds to its intrinsic
> value.
>
>
> * New Web site - tarawatch.org
>
>
> TaraWatch is pleased to announce the launch of its new web site at
> http://www.tarawatch.org The site is a WordPress blog, which allows
> anyone to read and post information, images and so on, in an effective
> and dynamic manner.
>
> The Hill of Tara issue has trundled on now for about 6 years, with no
> satisfactory end in sight.  Over the years various groups have come and
> gone in efforts to lobby the Government to alter the route of the M3
> away from Tara.
>
> TaraWatch has been set up to amalgamate and refocus the campaign to
> save Tara. We are co-ordinating efforts between activist campaigns,
> locally, nationally and internationally and are working closely with
> local residents groups in County Meath.
>
>
> * Legal Action / moratorium
>
>
> The litigant in the High Court case on Tara and the M3, Vincent
> Salafia, is working closely with TaraWatch to ensure that legal and
> activist approaches, though independent of each other, work in synch.
> Site monitoring and local information is being relayed to the legal
> team.
>
> TaraWatch is requesting all campaigning groups and individuals to
> refrain from making statements or taking any public action with regards
> to the M3 before the costs hearing in the High Court case on March
> 14th. We are very conscious of the need not to cause any allegation of
> contempt of court to be made against Mr. Salafia, or to prejudice his
> case in any way.  We ware asking the media to also respect this
> moratorium.
>
> After March 14th, it is likely that the issue will remain before the
> courts for some time, and TaraWatch is designed to provide accurate
> information to the media, regarding the legal situation and the
> campaign to save Tara.
>
> We are also organising a fundraising dinner at Drimnagh Castle, March
> 24th, to support his litigation fund. Please contact Chris Murray at
> dotliath-at-gmail.com for more information.
>
>
> * Online Activism Can Save Tara
>
>
> TaraWatch is using online activism as a means of attaining critical
> mass, and restoring the democratic deficit on the Tara issue. The
> online activist mailing list already has 450 members. You can join at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hilloftara/.
>
> While many groups have lobbied for Tara, and fair dues to them, none
> have been able to build up critical mass.  With the issue reaching
> crisis point, the campaign has to be taken to a new level.  Irish
> people throughout the world, and people in general, are appalled when
> they hear what is happening.  The problem is getting the message out.
> TaraWatch enables anyone, anywhere, to take action now, by:
>
> - Signing an online petition. http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/
> (19,000 signatures)
> - Sending letters to newspapers. Instructions at:
> http://www.hilloftara.info
> - Writing to politicians. Instructions at: http://www.hilloftara.info
> - Promoting the web sites and petition above, by sending mails and
> adding sites to engines and directories.
> - Joining the Discussion group
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hilloftara/.
> - Signing up to attend events when informed
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/litigation
> - Editing web sites like TaraWatch, which is a blog.  Please add your
> views, images and so on.
> - Spreading the word
> - Displaying the Save Tara logo
> http://www.hilloftara.info/images/tarabutton.gif
> - Donating to the litigation fund, so a professional and effective case
> can be completed.
>
> * Democratic deficit.
>
> Despite the fact that a national survey last year showed that over 70%
> of Irish people survey, wanted the route of the M3 changed, the Irish
> authorities have dug in their heels, and are pushing ahead in the
> courts and on the ground.
>
> Instead of listening to unequivocal public, professional and scientific
> opinion, the Irish authorities are pressing ahead with the excavations
> at Tara and preparations for the M3 motorway. They have abdicated their
> responsibility and transferred the difficult decision-making on the
> controversy to the Irish courts, under pressure from small but powerful
> commercial interests such as, IBEC, http://www.ibec.ie the Construction
> Industry Federation, http://www.cif.ie Meath Chambers of Commerce and
> private tolls companies, who are bidding on this and other motorway
> projects in Ireland.
>
>
> * On the ground.
>
>
> Excavations are proceeding on the 38 sites found between Navan and
> Dunshaughlin.  The National Roads Authority has a web site
> http://www.m3motorway.ie showing the sites being excavated. They expect
> to be finished some time this year.  Then road construction will begin.
>  Four consortia are in the bidding for the construction contract, with
> a preferred bidder having been chosen.  Meanwhile, land around the
> massive 52 acre interchange planned for Blundelstown, 1,000 metres from
> the tip of the Hill, is being bought up.
>
> The Tara Management Plan, http://www.friendsoftara.com/position.asp for
> a visitor center at Tara has been drawn up, but has not been released
> to the public. We need people on the ground in Meath to keep an eye on
> what is happening there, and to help organize events locally.
>
>
> * Media
>
>
> In the media, the plan has received worldwide attention.
> Telegraph
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/13/wtara1
> 3.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/13/ixworld.html
> Associated Press,
> http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20050511-1408-ireland-hilloftara.html
> International Herald Tribune,
> http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/11/news/travel12.php
> New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com (subscription)
> Washington Post,
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27671-2005Jan21.html
> and even China News Daily have featured the story.
>
> Stories are archived at http://www.hilloftara.blogspot.com/ and
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taralitigation/
>
>
> * Issues at stake
>
>
> Tara has become a global beacon in the struggle with modernity, and
> incorporates many civil rights issues:
>
> 1. Sovereignty � What is the duty of the State to protect the
> national
> cultural and environmental assets, owned by the people of Ireland?
>
> 2. Citizenship.  Does citizenship entitle you to take a legal action to
> protect the national cultural or environmental assets? Does it place an
> active duty on you to take legal or some other action to protect these
> assets against abuse by the State and private developers?
>
> 3. Privatisation � Are privately run toll roads an economically sound
> idea, or is it a way of keeping certain small interests very happy?  Is
> it ethical for the Government to take land from a private citizen, at
> below market value, and hand it over to a toll company who will reap
> huge profits from it?  Is rezoning land for huge profits
> anti-democratic?
>
> 4. Global warming.  More roads means more cars.  Is the current policy
> of massive investment in private roads, and little or none in public
> transport going to lead to a more and more car-dependent State, and
> possible economic ruin when the oil runs out?
>
> 5. Cultural identity. What does it mean to be Irish? Who are we? What
> are our symbols? What is sacred to us? Do we care? The same isues are
> being faced by peoples and nations worldwide.
>
> 6. Right to the Environment.  The European Convention on Human Rights
> has been interpreted to recognize �environmental rights�.  Do these
> apply to our right to enjoy Tara?
>
> 7. Public consultation.  The EU Environmental Impact Assessment
> directives, and the theories of sustainable development, require public
> consultation during the planning of national infrastructure projects.
> An Bord Pleanala has ben holding oral hearings, but many who
> participate in these hearings feel they are a sham, and that the
> authorities are only going through the motions, and the Bord is only
> rubberstamping projects because they are in the �national
> interest�.
>
> 8. Draconian legislation. Every year more and more laws are being
> passed which limit citizens rights and increase Government powers,
> particularly in the area of environmental law.  On the other hand,
> Ireland has the worst environmental record in the EU and the slowest
> rate of incorporation of EU legislation, such as the overdue AARHUS
> agreement.  In the case of Tara, the Landscape Convention would have
> made a big difference, but we are not signed up to that either.
> - The Planning and Development Act 200 limited judicial review of an An
> Bord Pleanala decision to those who made submissions.
> http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA30Y2000.html
> - The National Monuments Act 2004 greatly increased the powers of the
> Minister for the Environment and decreased protections for monuments.
> It was basically drafted by the National Roads Authority, in response
> to the Carrickmines Castle cases.
> http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/wvNavView/National+Monuments+Se
> rvice?OpenDocument&Lang=
> - Strategic Infrastructure Bill 2006 has just been published and will
> be making its way through the Oireachtas in the coming weeks. It
> severely limits the ability of a citizen to challenge a national
> infrastructure project in the courts, by limiting judicial review to
> certain types of groups.  It also does away with getting planning
> permission from local authorities. Download a copy of the draft bill
> http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4946
> - A new National Monuments Act is currently being drafted by the NRA
> and the Department of the Environment
>
> 9. Waste of public money.  The National Roads Authority has overspent
> by three times the amount of money estimated to complete the National
> Roads Programme under the National Development Plan 2000-2006.  It has
> gone from 6 billion to 18 billion and they are way behind delivery time
> too. It has been described as the biggest waste of taxpayers money in
> the history of the State. Se RTE Prime Time�s �The Money Pit�
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0509/primetime.html
>
> 10. Corruption.  Many people are smelling rats all along the pathway of
> the M3, but nobody has been able to catch one yet.  There was a flurry
> during the by-electin last year when the Fianna Fail candidate stepped
> down because it had reached the papers that he had bought land in Meath
> with Frank Dunlop, former press secretary of Fianna Fail, who has been
> a star witness in the Planning Tribunal. See RTE �Riley Withdraws
> from
> Election� http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0131/byelection.html
>
>
> * Public opposition thus far
>
>
> The purpose of TaraWatch is to harness all those who oppose the current
> plan, and reach all those who still don�t know about it or haven�t
> been
> given an opportunity to express their opinion.
>
> So far there has been significant opposition to the plan. The M3
> motorway�s route through the Hill of Tara�s archaeological complex
> has
> been publicly opposed by:
>
> - 70% of Irish people who voted in a national survey by Red C Research,
> the results of which were reported in The Irish Times.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taralitigation/message/1 Download the
> survey at http://www.hilloftara.info/downloads.html
> - The Director of the National Museum of Ireland, Mr. Pat Wallace.
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0512/m3.html
> - The Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland (RSAI).
> http://www.rsai.ie/index.cfm?action=obj.display&obj_id=93
> - The Heritage Council.
> http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/news/M3_hill_of_tara.html
> - The Discovery Programme, Ireland�s State archaeological research
> unit. http://www.discoveryprogramme.ie/controller?action=groups&gid=55
> - Top experts on Tara, Dr. Edel Bhreatnach, Conor Newman and Joe
> Fenwick
> http://www.nuigalway.ie/faculties_departments/archaeology/Tara_M3.html
> - Sean Haughey, T.D., Chairman of the Environment Committee.
> http://www.unison.ie/classifieds/property/planning/stories.php?ca=280&
> si=1307934
> - The Archaeological Institute of America (AIA).
> http://www.archaeology.org/online/news/tara.html
> - The European Association of Archaeologists (EAA).
> http://www.e-a-a.org/
> - The Landmarks Trust, New York.
> - Members of all Opposition parties in the Oireachtas and Meath County
> Council: Fine Gael, Sinn Fein, Labour, Green Party, Socialist Party, as
> well as many Independent members like Senators Maurice Hayes, David
> Norris, Shane Ross, Joe O�Toole,  and current Chairman of Meath
> County
> Council Brian Fitzgerald.
> - Mr. John Bruton, Irish Ambassador the United States, and former
> Taoisaeach of Ireland and County Meath TD.
> - The Meath Archaeological and Historical Society.
> - The Ancient Order of Hibernians, and many other Irish organizations
> worldwide.
> - Writers of Opinion/Editorial in newspapers like The New York Times,
> The Boston Globe, The Irish Times, The Irish Independent, The Sunday
> Tribune, The Sunday Independent, The Sunday Times and The Meath
> Chronicle.
> - Charlize Theron and Stuart Townsend.
> - Hundreds of academics worldwide who signed a petition.
> - Thousands of people worldwide who signed an online petition.
> - Thousands of people who have protested publicly, such as at the march
> through Dublin city center in March 2004
> - Thousands of people who made written objections to the Minister for
> the Environment, the Environment Committee and Transport Committee.
>
>
> * In the courts
>
>
> The case of Vincent Salafia �v- The Minister for the Environment,
> Heritage and Local Government; Ireland; The Attorney General; Meath
> County Council and the National Roads Authority
>
> The costs hearing in this case will be held Tuesday March 14th in the
> High Court, before Justice Thomas Smyth.  The case was dismissed on
> March 1 2006.  Mr. Salafia had argued that the Directions of the
> Minister, under the National Monuments Act 2004 were illegal; the Act
> was unconstitutional; the motorway passes through the Hill of Tara
> national monument or complex of monuments; and that newly discovered
> sites required that work stop, and a new route be found.  The case may
> be appealed to the Supreme Court.  A case is bring prepared for the EU,
> now that the Irish courts have spoken.
>
> Massive resources are being thrown into media spin and the legal case.
> The NRA has invested in a glossy booklet booklet,
> http://www.m3motorway.ie/Publications/ full-page newspaper
> advertisements, and animated videos, and well as creating scholarships
> to bribe academics.
> http://www.ucd.ie/news/mar06/030206_newman_scholars.htm  Over 20
> lawyers on three legal teams opposed the latest action, and costs are
> estimated to be around 500,000 for the High Court action alone.
> TaraWatch is the only group supporting and fundraising for litigation.
> A fundraising dinner is planned for Drimnagh Castle March 24, to
> support the legal fund. http://www.hilloftara.info
>
>
> LINKS
>
>
> TaraWatch http://www.tarawatch.org
> Hill of Tara litigation http://www.hilloftara.info
> General information and links on the Tara issue:
> http://www.hilloftara.blogspot.com
> Online Petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html
> News archive and mailing list:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taralitigation/
> Online Activism mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hilloftara
>
>
> CONTACT
>
>
> Please contact Chris Murray - 7 Kenliworth Square, Rathmines, Dublin 6
> 087-776-5289 dotliath@...

--
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Recently there was a report that a bronze age settlement site was not going to
slow or stop development of a new roadway in Co Carlow. Fair enough. These
things happen.

I was reminded of this a few days ago when discussing a lump in the ground in Co
Tipperary that *might* be a barrow. There are signs that a local person has
intentions to build on or beside this lump (whatever it is).

The question was, what sort of site will be excavated and built over, and what
sort will be protected?

Would a passage grave be an acceptable candidate for removal in favour of a
road? A henge site? A medieval cemetery? A Viking longport? A ringfort?

Which sorts of sites are reckoned too 'special' to trash, and what sort of
standards are being applied?

Sheer practicality means that some sites *have* to be excavated and built over
or it'd be enxt to impossible to do about anything but as the Woodstown Viking
site has shown, all archaeological sites may be equal, but some are more equal
than others. Was it just the sheer cost of excavating Woodstown that 'saved' it?
Was it the threat of extra cost that meant the site of Carrickmines Castle now
has a motorway running through it?

Is it just a finincial issue, or are there sites that are reckoned to be too
'special' to dig up and tarmac?

Stiof
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Barry,

> I'm of the opinion that good old fashioned
> experimental work can't be a bad thing.  James Mathieu
> published some work on this in a BAR volume in 2002,

Yep, I've seen this, and also read similar discussions and spoken with people
who've experimented with stone axes of varying types.

[snip]
> Mathieu doesn't give the
> diameters of the trees in his study, but he did cut
> down 100 without too much trouble. OF course, a Bronze
> axe is going to work harden along the cutting edge the
> more it is used, which can only be helpful.

True, though what I'm interested in is how practical it might be to fell the
likes of a yew, oak, holly or similar hard-wooded species when the bole has a
diameter of 0.5 metres, or 1.5 metres... or 3 metres. There's a huge difference
between cutting through pine and oak, willow and yew. That's really where the
core of my comments lie. No doubt such cutting was done, and they for sure did
not have saws, as we see the use of planks as well as poles in the construction
of palisades and building walls. To get planks of the appropriate diameter, you
need to come at a tree which is going to be way taller/longer than you need, so
you will have to cut it into appropriate lengths. Splitting oak or ash for
example into straight planks is a dead easy job. Any eejit can do it. Cutting
lengths out of a beam is another matter.

> I suppose ring-barking was used on the larger trees
> maybe?? Or maybe they bored them to death with some
> hard-core archaeological theory ;-P

I think you may have something there with the second idea... ;-)

Ring barking is fine to *kill* a tree, but it doesn't cut it up for you.

> Don't know of any BA saws from NW Europe, but they had
> coarse-toothed saws of over 1.5m length in the Aegean,
> which were clearly designed for felling trees.

There's even difficulty with arguments that there were saws in Ireland before
the medieval period, and no proof at all they existed.

> Some of the Irish EBA axes were in all probability too
> heavy to be used effectively (well over 1KG and quite
> large surface area), so perhaps some pieces were used
> simply as ingots??

...or as symbolic objects, say as gifts for a guest, ally, in marriage gift
exchanges, etc?

> \don't forget that some axes may have been more
> intended for cleaving skulls than trees, I have my
> suspicions about a lot of the LBA socket axes, given
> the width of their edge angle, relatively thin
> structure and comparatively light weight.

If you're cutting a narrow diameter piece of wood (say <10cm), what you need
most of all is a hard sharp edge, not length, and the narrowness of the axe head
is not an issue. If you're looking to split logs, you don't need something with
a sharp edge, but something tapering and hard. To cut through a large diameter
log or tree trunk you need something with a sharp edge, but most of all
something that can take th stress over the long term. You don't want the edge
blunting every fifteen minutes or every couple of days even. You also wan to
avoid structural damage like stress fractures or broken handles. Thus, axes used
to do this sort of work *ought* to have characteristic features of their design
which are not at all necessary for other jobs. You ideally need  socket able to
take a good big sturdy handle, and thickening of the metal in some way at key
stress points.

I'm really just pondering how such issues might show up (or not) in the axe
heads we have from various periods.

Stiof
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I'm of the opinion that good old fashioned
experimental work can't be a bad thing.  James Mathieu
published some work on this in a BAR volume in 2002,
and I was talking to some Swedish colleagues recently
who had made Aegean BA axes.  When they are used to
cut obliquely into the wood (taking out wedges), they
were most certainly functional objects and well
capable of felling trees.  Mathieu doesn't give the
diameters of the trees in his study, but he did cut
down 100 without too much trouble. OF course, a Bronze
axe is going to work harden along the cutting edge the
more it is used, which can only be helpful.

I suppose ring-barking was used on the larger trees
maybe?? Or maybe they bored them to death with some
hard-core archaeological theory ;-P

Don't know of any BA saws from NW Europe, but they had
coarse-toothed saws of over 1.5m length in the Aegean,
which were clearly designed for felling trees.

Some of the Irish EBA axes were in all probability too
heavy to be used effectively (well over 1KG and quite
large surface area), so perhaps some pieces were used
simply as ingots??

\don't forget that some axes may have been more
intended for cleaving skulls than trees, I have my
suspicions about a lot of the LBA socket axes, given
the width of their edge angle, relatively thin
structure and comparatively light weight.

ANyway, I digress!!!!

Back to work :(
Barry

__________________________________________________
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People,

There's been some discussion on the Britarch group about the uses to which flint
and copper axes might have been put. It is a subject as much applicable to the
Irish situation as the British, so rather than respond to the discussion there,
I am looking to start a new one here...

At the heart of the issue, from my point of view, is the problem of cutting
across the grain of wood. The great value of a saw blade is that it has the
ability to cut across the grain by way of making multiple small chips out of the
wood in rapid sequence without having to deal with the resistance to pressure
that a solid wall of wood presents - it essentially scrapes bits off the exposed
surface of the cut. An axe blade operates in exactly the opposite way,
attempting to combine the force of impact, sharpness of the edge and hardness of
the material of the axe head to bash into the fabric of the wood. Anyone who has
attempted to cut through a tree limb or trunk with an axe will appreciate that
the work involved is considerable. The technique usually adopetd to maximise the
cutting effect is to come at the side of the wood at an angle either to cut
through the wood at one blow or to remove a wedge by means of alternate cuts
from above and below or left and right. The thing is, even this is hard work.
Each blow has to contend with the hardness of the wood head-on, each blow
compresses the wood and makes it harder to cut, and for several types of wood
the length of the fibres combined with the softness of the wood mean the blade
also has to throw waste energy into overcoming the elasticity of the wood.

What axes are great for is cutting along the grain, being little more than a
wedge with a handle. Even in this, though, they are not always ideal as it is
easy enough to see that placing a wedge and giving it a thump with a hammer or
rock will mean your cut will be aimed exactly as required while swinging an axe
always risks missing the desired spot.

All this rambling has a point ('at last', they cry!). Cutting across the grain
of just about any wood is hard to do without a saw. Thinking especially about
land clearance during the neolithic and bronze age periods for the creation of
farm land, the question is 'just how worthwhile is it to expend effort to fell
woodland - especially mature trees - to clear space for farming?'

For livestock, clearing away ground cover and understory tree species and
leaving mature trees in place will enable livestock to move about and find food,
and allow light through to promote the growth of grasses and herbs. The same
goes for clearing scrubland of birch, willow, hazel etc. The axe work required
is far less, cutting through smaller diameter boles in a few blows each, with a
lot of space being opened up simply by removing briars and similar shrub species
with a scythe-type blade or even by hand or just by trampling and beating with a
sturdy pole. Doing this means not just less cutting effort, but also leaves
shelter for livestock in place. For livestock, the underlying soil type is also
less of an issue. As long as there are plenty of suitable food plants growing,
the site is suitable. The biggest problems for livestock are presented by
waterlogging of the soil (danger of the likes of foot-rot, water-borne
parasites) and steep slopes (danger of slipping and injury).

For the growing of crops the issues are different. Maximised sunlight is, in the
main, important. So, too, is the right soil type. Heavy soils are hard to turn
whether by hand or by plough. The right soil chemistry can be vital for a
successful crop. The type of natural environment most easily cleared for growing
crops is one with the least tree cover. Not only do trees obstruct the sunlight,
but they draw needed moisture from the soil in times of drought, their roots
make digging a really painful process, and they draw nutrients from the soil.
While neolithic farmers are hardly likely to have been conscious of issues like
soil pH levels or levels of nutrients in the soil, they will certainly have been
conscious of the importance of good sunlight, decent drainage, and the problems
posed by tree roots. For crops, the best land will, among other things, be that
which is free or relatively free of dense and/or mature tree cover.

With the above in mind, we might expect people to aim at clearing scrubland,
moorland or land forested with either smaller species or softer-wooded species.
Where these coincide with good light, good drainage and not too serious levels
of wind exposure, all the better. Therefore, we might expect people to be able
to view the available land with an eye to picking out areas best suited to easy
clearance as none of the above is rocket-science.

Larger trees will no doubt need to be felled on occasion not just for land
clearance but to construct boats or dwellings, though even here on an island
covered in the main by mature forest opportunities for taking advantage of large
fallen limbs and tree trunks mean that we're not necessarily looking at a need
to cut down large living trees all that often.

While all this discussion suggests that we can think about the relationship
between types of tree cover and the areas where we know early farming activity
was carried out, what concerns me here is the issue of use of axes.

It seems to me that there was little or no real need to use axes to cut across
the grain of large lumps of wood, and that they were far more likely to have
been used to deal with the sort of tasks they are better suited to - clearing
scrubland, removing tree limbs, splitting logs, stripping bark and cutting
through small diameter tree trunks.

With this in mind, what sort of design priorities might we expect to see in
evidence in axes from these periods? What sort of wear might we expect to see,
and how might this differ from wear from axes used regularly to fell large
trees? What sort of constraints and lack of constraints on types of material
used might we expect? What other sorts of uses might axes be put to which could
affect their design?

Thoughts, comments etc welcome.

Stiof
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<sheepish>
Thank you, I seem to have mis-spoke, as it were.
</sheepish>

--- In Bronze-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart D. Elder, MIAI" <13arch@...>
wrote:
>
> You missed out the Neolithic.
>
> Stuart
>
> ====================
> Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
> Licensed Archaeologist
> ====================
>
>
>
> ktolley wrote:
> > Good morning,
> > I have a question.  I ran across an article about the receeding fens
> > and the drying up of bogs.  Apparently, this has turned up trees lost
> > to the growth of peat some 6000 years ago.  By my reckoning, this puts
> > the trees at the beginning of the Bronze age end of the paleolithic.
> > Also, I have heard the argument that the growth of the peat helped
> > spur the transition period from a fairly stable lithic culture to one
> > that is unstable enough to allow bronze tools to move from status
> > symbols to everyday implements.
> >
> > My question is (or questions are), what do the trees tell us through
> > dendrochronology about the weather patterns at the time?  What other
> > kinds of evidence might such specimens provide?  Has this avenue of
> > study been exhausted?  I understand that these trees have been turning
> > up since the 17th century in England.  What about Ireland?
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> > IRQUAS INFORMATION
> >
> > INSIGHT, the Irish Heritage Studies Journal:
> > http://www.irishinsight.net
> >
> > Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the message text, this message
> > remains under copyright of the author. IRQUAS accept no responsibility
> > for views expressed in this message.
> >
> > To join related IRQUAS discussion groups or find out more about the
> > IRQUAS project visit our website: http://www.maqqi.supanet.com
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Online social science degree
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Online+social+science+degree&w1=Online+social+science+degree&w2=Social
+science+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102&.sig=YeZyJ51
ivzpBeJCJ7vQbIg>
> >  Social science book
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Social+science+book&w1=Online+social+science+degree&w2=Social+science+
book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102&.sig=mfJHWLO0AJOToV
nGUG382w>
> >  Social science degree
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Social+science+degree&w1=Online+social+science+degree&w2=Social+science
+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102&.sig=CejJmc3iF1-
FAwbKGOOoRg>
> >
> > Bronze age
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Bronze+age&w1=Online+social+science+degree&w2=Social+science+book&w3
=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102&.sig=1gu5Ixjx5Wyt054vG7FfNg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>

You missed out the Neolithic.

Stuart

====================
Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
Licensed Archaeologist
====================



ktolley wrote:
> Good morning,
> I have a question.  I ran across an article about the receeding fens
> and the drying up of bogs.  Apparently, this has turned up trees lost
> to the growth of peat some 6000 years ago.  By my reckoning, this puts
> the trees at the beginning of the Bronze age end of the paleolithic.
> Also, I have heard the argument that the growth of the peat helped
> spur the transition period from a fairly stable lithic culture to one
> that is unstable enough to allow bronze tools to move from status
> symbols to everyday implements.
>
> My question is (or questions are), what do the trees tell us through
> dendrochronology about the weather patterns at the time?  What other
> kinds of evidence might such specimens provide?  Has this avenue of
> study been exhausted?  I understand that these trees have been turning
> up since the 17th century in England.  What about Ireland?
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> IRQUAS INFORMATION
>
> INSIGHT, the Irish Heritage Studies Journal:
> http://www.irishinsight.net
>
> Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the message text, this message
> remains under copyright of the author. IRQUAS accept no responsibility
> for views expressed in this message.
>
> To join related IRQUAS discussion groups or find out more about the
> IRQUAS project visit our website: http://www.maqqi.supanet.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Online social science degree
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+social+science+degree&w1=Online+soci\
al+science+degree&w2=Social+science+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&\
c=4&s=102&.sig=YeZyJ51ivzpBeJCJ7vQbIg>
>  Social science book
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Social+science+book&w1=Online+social+scienc\
e+degree&w2=Social+science+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102\
&.sig=mfJHWLO0AJOToVnGUG382w>
>  Social science degree
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Social+science+degree&w1=Online+social+scie\
nce+degree&w2=Social+science+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=1\
02&.sig=CejJmc3iF1-FAwbKGOOoRg>
>
> Bronze age
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Bronze+age&w1=Online+social+science+degree&\
w2=Social+science+book&w3=Social+science+degree&w4=Bronze+age&c=4&s=102&.sig=1gu\
5Ixjx5Wyt054vG7FfNg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "Bronze-Age-Ireland
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bronze-Age-Ireland>" on the web.
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>        Bronze-Age-Ireland-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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<mailto:Bronze-Age-Ireland-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Good morning,
I have a question.  I ran across an article about the receeding fens
and the drying up of bogs.  Apparently, this has turned up trees lost
to the growth of peat some 6000 years ago.  By my reckoning, this puts
the trees at the beginning of the Bronze age end of the paleolithic.
Also, I have heard the argument that the growth of the peat helped
spur the transition period from a fairly stable lithic culture to one
that is unstable enough to allow bronze tools to move from status
symbols to everyday implements.

My question is (or questions are), what do the trees tell us through
dendrochronology about the weather patterns at the time?  What other
kinds of evidence might such specimens provide?  Has this avenue of
study been exhausted?  I understand that these trees have been turning
up since the 17th century in England.  What about Ireland?

Kevin

> Folks
> from today's Stone Pages newsletter:
>
> "An ancient Bronze-Age settlement believed to be 4,000 years old has
> been uncovered in the direct path of the Carlow bypass (Ireland). The
> discovery was unearthed on a farm this week and consists of a number
> of ancient circular dwellings, while preliminary examination of the
> site has also identified an ancient cremation pit. However, despite
> the historical fascination this discovery will undoubtedly evoke,
> there is absolutely no intention by the National Roads Authority or
> the Local Authorities to stop the construction of the N9/N10.

Par for the course, that. If really big sites don't get bypassed (exception
being Woodstown site beside Waterford), what hope for something as trivial as a
mere group of ancient houses?

Would be interesting to know if the likes of An Taisce have even lifted their
heads to consider this one at all... Probably not.

Fact is, if they don't get excavated, we find out almost nothing. If they get
excavated, they get destroyed no matter what. If we dig the thing for purely
researh purposes, the end result is exactly the same as the end result of
putting the road through here... the site gets dug, recorded, published (in some
form or another)... and life goes on.

Stiof
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Folks
from today's Stone Pages newsletter:

"An ancient Bronze-Age settlement believed to be 4,000 years old has
been uncovered in the direct path of the Carlow bypass (Ireland). The
discovery was unearthed on a farm this week and consists of a number
of ancient circular dwellings, while preliminary examination of the
site has also identified an ancient cremation pit. However, despite
the historical fascination this discovery will undoubtedly evoke,
there is absolutely no intention by the National Roads Authority or
the Local Authorities to stop the construction of the N9/N10.
       "It is an honour that the discovery was made here on the farm,
something like this doesn't happen every day," stated farm owner
Michael Kelly. Mr Kelly indicated his firm belief that we should
preserve this link with the past. "Carlow is rich in ancient
archaeology - the Brownshill Dolmen is just across the fields from
this site," he added. "I do think it's wrong for a dual carriageway
to be built over it and for it to be lost forever," Mr Kelly remarked.
       The site is located directly across from Tinryland GAA Club
where members put up a huge challenge to divert the path of the
roadway from their facility. Preliminary investigations involving
test trenching along the path of the roadway last summer revealed
archaeological activity at Rathcrogue and closer inspection last week
revealed this ancient Bronze Age site on the Kelly farm.
       Archaeologists arrived to clear and excavate the site, which
will painstakingly continue by hand for upwards of one month. It is
believed at this initial stage that the discovery consists of
possibly three circular dwellings, which are indicated by carbonised
markings of ancient timber stakes. Some bones were also discovered on
the site, which have been sent away for testing to determine if they
are animal or human and also some pottery pieces.
       Hillary King, Press Officer with Kildare County Council, the
acquiring authority of the N9/N10, stated that the council could not
comment on the nature of the archaeological examination at Rathcrogue
until a full archeological report had been furnished. She added that
it was 'unlikely' this would affect the progression of the roadway."

Source: The Nationalist (8 February 2006)
http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/news/story.asp?j=27001

Anne
   ----------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apparently when I connect to Yahoo I am getting some sort of "command"
root spyware. As a result,having knowledge of Yahoo and thier
practices I will be deleting my Yahoo account. If anyone would still
like to contact me,my addy is radharc-alainn@...

Dunno if anyone here can help on this query from our sister Iron Age group,
but...

Stiof

##########################

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Iron-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Iron-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of madraruax
> Sent: 11 February 2006 18:28
> To: Iron-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: ~IAI > Prehistoric Glass
>
>
> Does anyone happen to know the dating of the earliest glass (not
> faience) from Ireland?
> The earliest I know of so far are those glass beads from Raftery's dig
> at Rathgall which I think are from a burial of about 1100-1000BC.
> Other than these I know of only two other sites that have produced
> glass beads before the Iron Age: Mullaghmore, Down,  (Waddell 2000,
> Prehistoric Archaeology of Ireland, 367) and Kilmahuddrick, Dublin,
> (both also LBA burial sites I think). Some were found at Haughey's
> Fort (Waddell 216-7) but do not know if they were from a dated context
> (s).
> Any help (even speculation) much appreciated.
> Madra

I will probably cover a good bit of The Mythological Cycle, focusing
on The Tuatha Dé Danann. However I would also like to include a few
bits from The Ulster Cycle.However It may be a better idea to publish
seperate books covering each cylce unto itself. Maybe some input from
a few members on this subject? This is a labor of love...and I want
things to be as accurate as possible. Anyone who catches a spelling
error or a screwed up fact,please let me know!Also I would love it if
someone might help me with pronunciations.I am studying The Irish
Language,trying to learn to speak and write.But with the dialect
differences and people giving misinformation because they think it's
funny to "muck with The American" it has been difficult Growing up in
the US,my knowledge is limited to the watered down versions that pop
up over here. I wish to bring a bit of enlightenment and education
with this project,as well as putting a human face to the legends and
tales that are so near to my heart. By the way,I have already recieved
more help from "The Bronze Age Ireland group" than every other
resource combined. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart..(and
wallet) for everything thus far. Hopefully I will gain a bit of
education from this as well. Unlike many people in this country,I want
to know FACTS...not what strikes my fancy.
Thank You once again,
     S.W.Mac Roich Tampa,Florida

Seán,

> The styrofoam and plaster Lia Fail is for a photoshoot. I am not in
> Ireland or I'd do it at the actual sights. I am publishing a
> hardcover "table top" pictorial of The Legends of Ireland. As opposed
> to a bunch of paintings,I have enlisted several men and women to dress
> and pose as the characters in Irish mythology. It goes without saying
> The Lia Fail plays a significant role in Irish Mythology and I just
> don't feel I could do a spread without including it somewhere in the
> book. Any ideas as to where I might find the specifications on it?...I
> am about to check a few of the more prominant megalith sites on the
> web as soon as I finish typing this post.Sláinte chugat!

Sounds like an interesting and ambitious project. Which legends are you going to
deal with? I'm sure people here would be more than happy to discuss choices of
jewellery, weapons, etc also. There is still too much out there which presents a
confused picture of how people ought to look in a given period in Ireland. This
is, after all, part of what we're here for...

Stiof
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Seán,

I live in Navan (5 mins from Tara and the Lia Fail), so if you have
broadband, I could email some decent digital photos and measurements at
the weekend perhaps? I usually go up there on Sunday afternoons. Maybe
you could jig the photo in Photoshop or similar and superimpose your
freinds into the picture if I get a fairly wide shot of it?

Stuart

====================
Stuart D. Elder, MIAI
Licensed Archaeologist
====================



Seán Wheelock wrote:

> The styrofoam and plaster Lia Fail is for a photoshoot. I am not in
> Ireland or I'd do it at the actual sights. I am publishing a
> hardcover "table top" pictorial of The Legends of Ireland. As opposed
> to a bunch of paintings,I have enlisted several men and women to dress
> and pose as the characters in Irish mythology. It goes without saying
> The Lia Fail plays a significant role in Irish Mythology and I just
> don't feel I could do a spread without including it somewhere in the
> book. Any ideas as to where I might find the specifications on it?...I
> am about to check a few of the more prominant megalith sites on the
> web as soon as I finish typing this post.Sláinte chugat!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
> IRQUAS INFORMATION
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The Brigantia site was also a jewel...you guys are great! Thank You SO
much.

The Buster Ancient Farm site was perfect for what I needed as far as
the roundhouse.It had a great layout of how the Moel y Gerddi House
was built .Thank You!

The styrofoam and plaster Lia Fail is for a photoshoot. I am not in
Ireland or I'd do it at the actual sights. I am publishing a
hardcover "table top" pictorial of The Legends of Ireland. As opposed
to a bunch of paintings,I have enlisted several men and women to dress
and pose as the characters in Irish mythology. It goes without saying
The Lia Fail plays a significant role in Irish Mythology and I just
don't feel I could do a spread without including it somewhere in the
book. Any ideas as to where I might find the specifications on it?...I
am about to check a few of the more prominant megalith sites on the
web as soon as I finish typing this post.Sláinte chugat!

I have a postcard of a roundhouse from Craggenowen, obtained in 1992. Would
it be of some help??
Anne
-------Original Message-------

From: Stiof MacAmhalghaidh
Date: 02/07/06 13:46:26
To: Bronze-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: ~BAI > Bronze Age clothing...props

> Can anyone direct me to a link that has REALLY GOOD images of Irish
> Bronze Age clothing as well as maybe an instructional on how to make
> them. I have seen such articles before but I cannot relocate them on
> the web. Also I am searching for Large images of roundhouses,and the
> Lia Fail. I need to be able to recreate this stone from styrofoam and
> plaster,so I need as well any specification on this stone
> (ie:height,width etc)

Yikes... the only possible source that comes to mind is the presence of
surviving clothes on BA period bog bodies...

The Cregganowen reconstruction might be your best bet for a roundhouse,
which is
located in Co Clare. Don't know of there are any online photos for this
place,
but I wouldn't be surprised of there were. In terms of construction, a poke
around in a decent archaeology text book such as John Waddell's 'The
Prehistoric
Archaeology of Ireland' should turn up several nice (recon)structural
diagrams
for roundhouses also.

I cannot resist asking... what, oh what do you need to build a styrofoam Lia
Fail for??!!

Stiof
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http://www.irishinsight.net

Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the message text, this message remains
under copyright of the author. IRQUAS accept no responsibility for views
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Yahoo! Groups Links








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Can anyone direct me to a link that has REALLY GOOD images of Irish
> Bronze Age clothing as well as maybe an instructional on how to make
> them. I have seen such articles before but I cannot relocate them on
> the web. Also I am searching for Large images of roundhouses,and the
> Lia Fail. I need to be able to recreate this stone from styrofoam and
> plaster,so I need as well any specification on this stone
> (ie:height,width etc)

Yikes... the only possible source that comes to mind is the presence of
surviving clothes on BA period bog bodies...

The Cregganowen reconstruction might be your best bet for a roundhouse, which is
located in Co Clare. Don't know of there are any online photos for this place,
but I wouldn't be surprised of there were. In terms of construction, a poke
around in a decent archaeology text book such as John Waddell's 'The Prehistoric
Archaeology of Ireland' should turn up several nice (recon)structural diagrams
for roundhouses also.

I cannot resist asking... what, oh what do you need to build a styrofoam Lia
Fail for??!!

Stiof
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Hi,
You may want to contact the Irish National Heritage Park:
http://www.inhp.com/: FERRYCARRIG  CO WEXFORD  IRELAND, Telephone : 353 53
20733     Fax : 353 53 20911     Email : info@...

Butser Ancient Farm has re-build roundhouses, so they should have
information about them: http://www.butser.org.uk/

I guess you can also contact the re-enactment group Brigantia
(http://www.ironage.demon.co.uk/brigantia/about.htm); they have done a lot
of research for their clothes and weapons. They might also know a few things
about the Bronze Age Irish clothes.
I know there's also an Irish group / settlement, but I forgot their name.
Maybe I remember it the coming days.

I have only Dutch Bronze Age clothing on my site, for reference purposes.

Regards,
Hans

----Original Message Follows----
From: Seán Wheelock <radharc_alainn@...>
Reply-To: Bronze-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com
To: Bronze-Age-Ireland@yahoogroups.com
Subject: ~BAI > Bronze Age clothing...props
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:31:56 -0000

Can anyone direct me to a link that has REALLY GOOD images of Irish
Bronze Age clothing as well as maybe an instructional on how to make
them. I have seen such articles before but I cannot relocate them on
the web. Also I am searching for Large images of roundhouses,and the
Lia Fail. I need to be able to recreate this stone from styrofoam and
plaster,so I need as well any specification on this stone
(ie:height,width etc)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
IRQUAS INFORMATION

INSIGHT, the Irish Heritage Studies Journal:
http://www.irishinsight.net

Unless otherwise explicitly stated in the message text, this message remains
under copyright of the author. IRQUAS accept no responsibility for views
expressed in this message.

To join related IRQUAS discussion groups or find out more about the IRQUAS
project visit our website: http://www.maqqi.supanet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>


Yahoo! Groups Links

Can anyone direct me to a link that has REALLY GOOD images of Irish
Bronze Age clothing as well as maybe an instructional on how to make
them. I have seen such articles before but I cannot relocate them on
the web. Also I am searching for Large images of roundhouses,and the
Lia Fail. I need to be able to recreate this stone from styrofoam and
plaster,so I need as well any specification on this stone
(ie:height,width etc)

See below.

Stiof

############################

Applications are invited for the following position:

The National Roads Authority Newman Scholar in Landscape Archaeology

The appointment of a Newman Scholar in Landscape Archaeology is
established with the generous support of the National Roads Authority
(NRA).Applications are invited from graduates in archaeology or a related
discipline who hold a doctoral degree and have at least one year of post
doctoral experience.

Further application details:
http://www.ucd.ie/personl/html/vacancies/2005/academic/002194.htm

UCD School of Archaeology details:
http://www.ucd.ie/archaeology/
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