I'm collecting the viRaliyARRuppaTai poems in CT and post-CT texts.
These poems describe or advise the viRali dancer to reach
a court or place of worship or a home. viRali appears alone
unaccompanied by anyone including husband.

Thanks,
N. Ganesan

--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:
> At 01:21 20/04/01 +0000, you wrote:
>
> In order to try to answer your first question,
> I went to Google search engine <http://www.google.com>
> made a search for "Squirrel in the Courtyard" (do not forget the
brackets),
> and landed on 4 valid answers that boil down to 2 sites:
>

I am sure you are correct.

btw, "Squirrel  in the courtyard" seems like a translation
of "aNilATu munRil" from kuRuntokai 41. The poet also goes by the
name "aNilATu munRilAr" and acc to UVS, he's not known to have
written anything else.

Hope this helps,

LS

--- In CTamil@y..., "Toke Lindegaard Knudsen" <tlknudsen@g...> wrote:
>
> Respected members of CTamil,
>
> I have been studying Sanskrit for nearly two years now.  During my
> studies of Indian history and culture I have developed a desire to
> learn Tamil.  I am interested in learning both the Classical
language
> (I am very fascinated with the works of the Alvars) and the modern
> language (as I would like to be able to speak Tamil; I am somewhat
> that I am only learning to deal with Sanskrit on a textual level).
> Unfortunately the University here does not offer Tamil, so I would
> have to study on my own in the beginning.


My own personal feeling is that the Classical language is best
approached by learning the modern language first. This would satisfy
the other objective of learning the modern language. One good
starting point is Kausalya Hart (Tamil for Beginners Parts 1 & 2,
Berkeley, 1992). It starts with the alphabet and deals with
conversational language. I got Part 1 for my kids and it's pretty
good.

I am deeply touched that you are interested in the Alvar poetry.
Please do not hesitate to write to me. It will be a great pleasure to
get you over the initial hurdles and help you in whatever way I can.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS

At 17:29 20/04/01 +0200, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote:

>Respected members of CTamil,
>[...........]
>My question to you all is if you could recommend a good book
>which I could use on my own to get familiar with the Classical
>language.  Books on the modern language seems to be readily
>available here, but if any of you know of good titles here I would
>also like to hear about it.  Any ideas and suggestions  would be
>greatly appreciated.

The problem is that there are many varieties
of "Classical Tamil".
1.Would you like to be able to read the Sangam classics
(kuRuntokai, naRRiNai, etc.)?
2.Would you like to be able to read tEvAram?
3.Would you like to be be able to read medieval commentaries
(like those of naccin2Arkkin2iyar)?

In the first case, you could use
A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry
    V.S. Rajam, American Philosophical Society,
    vol.199, Philadelphia, 1992 [[ ISSN 0065-9738 ]]

but this is hardly a textbook

I am sure Thomas Lehman, from Heidelberg university,
who has first-hand experience
of teaching Tamil, and who is now on this list,
could usefully comment

Bonne chance!

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)

Respected members of CTamil,

I have been studying Sanskrit for nearly two years now.  During my
studies of Indian history and culture I have developed a desire to
learn Tamil.  I am interested in learning both the Classical language
(I am very fascinated with the works of the Alvars) and the modern
language (as I would like to be able to speak Tamil; I am somewhat
that I am only learning to deal with Sanskrit on a textual level).
Unfortunately the University here does not offer Tamil, so I would
have to study on my own in the beginning.

My question to you all is if you could recommend a good book
which I could use on my own to get familiar with the Classical
language.  Books on the modern language seems to be readily
available here, but if any of you know of good titles here I would
also like to hear about it.  Any ideas and suggestions  would be
greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen
Copenhagen/Denmark

Dear co-list members,

whenever someone starts a new thread,
I believe it is easier for everybody
if there is a new Subject line.

Which is why I send again tiru VVRaman's message
under a new title (I hope he does not mind)
and delete the original message
from the list's archive.

Thanks for everybody to try to follow the same policy

--- jlc (Moderator of Classical Tamil list)


At 09:49 20/04/01 -0400, VVRaman (vvrsps@...) wrote

>In a (friendly) debate on whether Tamil is an independent language or is
>Sanskrit-derived, I gave the following two Tamil translations of a famous
>Bengali line (from a song), both of which would be understood by any Tamilian,
>the first utterly incomprehensible to one who doesn't know Tamil, and the
>second fairly intelligible to anyone familiar with Hindi, Bengali, Marathi,
>etc. I'd like tour reactions.
>
>1. ellA naDugaLukkum araciyAga iruppadu nAn piRanda nADu.
>
>2. sakala desaNgalirkkum rANi en janma bhUmi.
>
>3. shokol deshe rANi amAr jonma-bhUmi (Bengali).
>
>Any thoughts?
>VVRaman
>20 April, 2001

At 16:57 19/04/01 +0000, Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote:
>--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:
>[....]
> > Is this how you analyse the tEvAram line by appar
> > which I just quoted:
> >
> > un2 aTikkE pOtukin2REn2 (tEvAram, 6-99)
> > "I am coming to take shelter under your feet" (VMS translation)
>
>or "...proceeding towards your feet"
>
> >
> >
> > And how do you understand tEvAram 1-59_(8)
> > iRaiyE piriyAtu eZuntu pOtum  ?
> >
> > Is it "rise and come!" ?
> > or is it "rise and go!" ?
>
>I would say the latter.
>We can  rule out the possibility that
>"pOtum" is not readable as "pO + tu + um".
>"we shall go"
>That is applicable only to first person plural.
>Since we have the vocative form of "iRai" here,
>we most likely have the "pOtum" addressed to "iRai".
>Hence "pOtum" = pOtu + um as in col > collum = "please say".
>So it most likely means "rise and go".

V.M. Subrahmanya Ayyar chooses the other possibility.
The fuller quotation of his translation is
tavam il cUZ iTam karuti nin2RIr ellAm
"all of you who were thinking of a place to perform penance! "
iRaiyE piriyAtu eZuntu pOtum
"rise and come without parting even for a moment"

     To explain where this unpublished (and unrevised) translation
      is taken from (and what its status is)
     [the author died before being able to revise the manuscript,
     so that sometimes some phrases are left-over ...],
      you can read the WriteUp of a project which I am working on at the moment.
      [it is in Acrobat/PDF format and located at the following URL
      <http://www.linguist.jussieu.fr/~chevilla/WriteUp.pdf>

All comments very welcome.

Regards

-- jlc

At 01:21 20/04/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm enjoying the fine translation of naRRiNai, a CT classic:
>NaRRiNai, An anthology of Amour,
>Translated by A. V. Subramanian,
>Dept. of Tamil Development-Culture, Govt. of TN, Chennai, 1989
>
>...................
>What are the complete bibliographic details of
>1) The squirrel in the courtyard and 2) the Ten Decads.
>  ...............
>N. Ganesan

Greetings!

In order to try to answer your first question,
I went to Google search engine <http://www.google.com>
made a search for "Squirrel in the Courtyard" (do not forget the brackets),
and landed on 4 valid answers that boil down to 2 sites:

<http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/sangam/Kurincip.htm>
<http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/sangam/Abbrev.htm>

MULLAIPPATTU:

Full text:     A.V.Subramanian
                     The Squirrel in the Courtyard.
                     Transcompositions from Tamil Sangam Lyric.
                     Madras: Tamil Nadu Textbook Society, 1980 / (p.88) -

<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/tpoetry.html>
The squirrel in the courtyard: transcompositions from Tamil Sangam lyrics
       A. V. Subramanian
       Madras: Tamilnadu Textbook Soc., 1980

The result seems to be
1.that "The Squirrel in the Courtyard" is an 88p. translation/transcomposition
    of Mullaippattu that was published in 1980 in Madras.
2. that they have a good data base in Koeln (Germany) on such topics
3. that K. Kalyanasundaram maintains a Tamil Electronic Library at Geocities

But I have not seen the book

Hopefully, others may know more

I hope that helps

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)

--- In CTamil@y..., naga_ganesan@h... wrote:
> > I'm enjoying the fine translation of naRRiNai, a CT classic:
> NaRRiNai, An anthology of Amour,> Translated by A. V. Subramanian,
> Dept. of Tamil Development-Culture, Govt. of TN, Chennai, 1989
> > The translations are beautiful. The author is a polymath,
> having rendered Sanskrit poems also into English.
> > The first paragraph in the Foreword:
> "I do not particularly want to be known and pointed out
> as a translator of classical Tamil poetry. I happened to do
> a book - the Squirrel in the Courtyard, I was invited to
> do a second - The Ten Decads ---"
> > What are the complete bibliographic details of
> 1) The squirrel in the courtyard and 2) the Ten Decads.
> > The book (2) is obviously patiRRuppattu.
> Does OCLC list (1) and/or (2)
>

Shri AVS is an extraordinary scholar. He is also an authority on
Sanskrit aesthetics (his book has been published by Motilal
Banarsidass). It has indeed been a privilege for me to have been his
colleague for decades and of course, an avid admirer.

I'm enjoying the fine translation of naRRiNai, a CT classic:
NaRRiNai, An anthology of Amour,
Translated by A. V. Subramanian,
Dept. of Tamil Development-Culture, Govt. of TN, Chennai, 1989

The translations are beautiful. The author is a polymath,
having rendered Sanskrit poems also into English.

The first paragraph in the Foreword:
"I do not particularly want to be known and pointed out
as a translator of classical Tamil poetry. I happened to do
a book - the Squirrel in the Courtyard, I was invited to
do a second - The Ten Decads ---"

What are the complete bibliographic details of
1) The squirrel in the courtyard and 2) the Ten Decads.

The book (2) is obviously patiRRuppattu.
Does OCLC list (1) and/or (2)

Many thanks,
N. Ganesan

--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:
> At 11:27 19/04/01 +0000, you wrote:..
> To concentrate on pOtarutal,
> one can compare your quotation with T.Lex.
> where they gives 4 different meanings
> for pOtarutal when it is intransitive
>   1. to go, pass (= cellutal)
>   2. to return (= tirumputal)
>   3. to come (=varutal)
>   4. to be inferred (=peRappaTutal)
> and 3 different meanings when it is transitive
> (which is not the case with our kuRaL example)
> > For each meaning, T.Lex. gives quotations from Tamil Classics
> (respectively kalit., nAlaTi., civ. periyAJ., tirukkO. urai)
> > So, since everyone of these meanings> seems to be attested, the
difficulty, it seems to me, is:> > FIRST to understand how (or to say
whether)> it is possible for the same word> to have (had) at the same
time seemingly contradictory meanings> like "coming" and "going"
>       (you may remember the discussions on the word "en2al"
>        that occurs twice in kuRaL 196, first with a negative meaning
>       "do not call (him) (this)!" and then with a positive meaning
>       "call (him) (that)!", but in that case one would imagine that
the stress>        might be  positionned at a different place)
>

In parole or colloquial parlance, it is common while bidding good-bye,
to say: vare_n- (which literarry means, I am coming); this is an
idiomatic way of waying, 'po_yit.t.u vare_n-un:ga' (I will go and
return); I suppose it is a matter of politeness to indicate that I
like your company, I will be gone only temporarily and will return
soon. Maybe, there is a taboo in the use of the word, po_kir-e_n-
which may sound like the English: 'I am off (dead)'.

Similarly, po_tarutal may mean, to go, to go for good -- emphatic GO
and don't return! There is an alternation in old Tamil between
po_kin-, po_tin-; so the compound po_taral may be: po_tu + aralai (go
(in time) and in error (kur-r-am). Maybe.

Greetings listers!

--- In CTamil@y..., "Periannan Chandrasekaran" <perichandra@y...>
wrote:


> tiruppAvai verse # 11:
> "kaRRuk kaRavai kaNaGkaL pala kARantu
> ....
> puRR(u) arav(u) alkul pun2a mayilE pOtarAy
> ...
> "
>
> Here in this beautiful verse,
>  the pAvai girls stand in the courtyard of a girl and
> ask her to come join them.

Chandra and list,

There's one more reference from tiruppAvai:

cil enRu azaiyEnmin naGkaimIr pOtarukinRen (tp 15?)

Here the "pOtarukinREn" means "vantuviTukiREn". The auxiliary "taru"
seems to be used in the sense of completion of the verb but for a
future time hence "viTukiREN" not "viTTEn" ... "taru" here seems to
be used exactly like "viTu" is used.

What about colloquial Telugu "vaccEstAnu" = "vacci + istAnu" ... very
commonly used and exactly identical in form to "pOtarukinREn".

In idiomatic Hindi with verbs of non motion type this is very common
e.g., "kar diyA" = ceytu viTTAn where the "diyA" literally
means "gave". In rural Hindi, this is used even with verbs of motion.
I have heard Muslims say "A dEtA hUn" identical in form
to "pOtarukinREn". In fact in Hindi, the standard perfective
construction uses the verb for "give" as an auxiliary.

To me using the verb for "give" as an auxiliary to the main verb to
impart this sense appears to be an areal feature.

Hope this helps,

LS

--- In CTamil@y..., "Periannan Chandrasekaran" <perichandra@y...>
...
> This may be corroborated further by examining "izitaru" in
> muruku's penultinate line (#316) which refers to the descendence of
> the water fall at a typical mountain ruled by murukan2:

I forgot to add a phrase from the line 315:
"....cEN nin2Ru
izum en2a izitarum aruvip
  paza mutir cOlai malai kizavOn2E".

where cEN = distance nin2Ru = from

> Here the poet is describes it as though he were at the foot of the
> falls and points us to the "distant" origin of the water fall that
> comes down hurtling *towards* him.

P. Chandrasekaran

--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:
..
..
> >-------
> >pOtu-tal
> >
> >otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 01 1. to be adequate; to suffice; 2. to be
> >competent, fit, proper; to be adapted, suitable; 3. to be
respectable
> >
> >
> >pOtu-tal
> >
> >otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 02 1. to go, pass, proceed; 2. to conduct
> >oneself, behave
>
> Is this how you analyse the tEvAram line by appar
> which I just quoted:
>
> un2 aTikkE pOtukin2REn2 (tEvAram, 6-99)
> "I am coming to take shelter under your feet" (VMS translation)

or "...proceeding towards your feet"

>
>
> And how do you understand tEvAram 1-59_(8)
> iRaiyE piriyAtu eZuntu pOtum  ?
>
> Is it "rise and come!" ?
> or is it "rise and go!" ?

I would say the latter.
We can  rule out the possibility that
"pOtum" is not readable as "pO + tu + um".
"we shall go"
That is applicable only to first person plural.
Since we have the vocative form of "iRai" here,
we most likely have the "pOtum" addressed to "iRai".
Hence "pOtum" = pOtu + um as in col > collum = "please say".
So it most likely means "rise and go".

Looks like comparing pO and pOtA/pOtaru,
only the latter form could mean "come" as implied by the "tA/taru"
verb which through its "give" sense apparently reverses the direction
of movement towards the speaker as if he were the "beneficiary" of
the
  action.
This may be corroborated further by examining "izitaru" in
muruku's penultinate line (#316) which refers to the descendence of
the water fall at a typical mountain ruled by murukan2:
"izum en2a izitarum aruvip
paza mutir cOlai malai kizavOn2E".

Here the poet is describes it as though he were at the foot of the
falls and points us to the "distant" origin of the water fall that
comes down hurtling *towards* him.


>
> I have the feeling that using this verb in this circumstance
> means that the one who speaks MOVES ALONG with those
> to whom he speaks.
>
> What do you think?
>
> >-----------
> >
> >Morever the palm size "popular"  edition of kuRal with commentary
by
> >16-kavanakar Kanacuppuraththinam piLLai that I  carry with me
> >splits sandhi as "pOtAy yAm".
>
> Of course, one may have to go back to the manuscripts,
> compare many editions and many commentators!
>
..
>
> Regards
>
> -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD
>
> P.S. I may have to delay until tomorrow the continuation of this
> interesting enquiry
> which is very enjoyable.

At 16:00 19/04/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > All we have here is pOtA, which is the imperative (=Eval) of
>pOtarutal
> > like tA is the imperative of tarutal
> >
> > [the past stem is pOnt-, like in pOntEn2]
> >
> > [to be continued]
> >
>
>Actually what we may have here is the verb pOtu-tal
>and its imperative form pOtAy
>just like:
>  vA-tal > vArAy
>
>-------
>pOtu-tal
>
>otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 01 1. to be adequate; to suffice; 2. to be
>competent, fit, proper; to be adapted, suitable; 3. to be respectable
>
>
>pOtu-tal
>
>otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 02 1. to go, pass, proceed; 2. to conduct
>oneself, behave

Is this how you analyse the tEvAram line by appar
which I just quoted:

un2 aTikkE pOtukin2REn2 (tEvAram, 6-99)
"I am coming to take shelter under your feet" (VMS translation)


And how do you understand tEvAram 1-59_(8)
iRaiyE piriyAtu eZuntu pOtum  ?

Is it "rise and come!" ?
or is it "rise and go!" ?

I have the feeling that using this verb in this circumstance
means that the one who speaks MOVES ALONG with those
to whom he speaks.

What do you think?

>-----------
>
>Morever the palm size "popular"  edition of kuRal with commentary by
>16-kavanakar Kanacuppuraththinam piLLai that I  carry with me
>splits sandhi as "pOtAy yAm".

Of course, one may have to go back to the manuscripts,
compare many editions and many commentators!


>So we might not even be having "pOtaru-tal" there in the kuRal itself
>notwithsatnding the deceptive occurrence of "pOtaru-tal" in pari.'s
>commentary!
>
>
>Regards
>P. Chandrasekaran.

Regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

P.S. I may have to delay until tomorrow the continuation of this
interesting enquiry
which is very enjoyable.

At 15:28 19/04/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Prof. Chevillard and Dr. Ganesan,
>vaNakkam.
>Pleased to see that a list devoted to classical Tamil is started.

..........;

>pOtA-tal(pOtarutal)
>
>otl pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) 01 1. to go, pass; 2. to
>return; 3. to come; 4. to be inferred;

I believe these intransitive uses given by T. Lex. have to be studied first

>1. to carry away; 2. to bring;
>3. to welcome, receive with courtesy

these are the the transitive (they could be studied later,
when the main case is cleared)



>tiruppAvai verse # 11:
>"kaRRuk kaRavai kaNaGkaL pala kARantu
>....
>puRR(u) arav(u) alkul pun2a mayilE pOtarAy
>...
>"
>
>Here in this beautiful verse,
>  the pAvai girls stand in the courtyard of a girl and
>ask her to come join them.

that tiruppAvai example is a very good one
because it is unambiguous. Professor Jean FILLIOZAT,
(in his French translation of tiruppAvai, published in 1972
by the French Institute of Pondicherry)
gives the same interpretation
(pOtarutal with the meaning of "coming"):

"Paonne de la djangle dont le sexe est un serpent de termitière, viens"

One can also explore le texte of tEvAram,
but the forms that are met with there
are a little different, like for instance,
the following, which is found in appar's tEvAram


un2 aTikkE pOtukin2REn2 (6-99)

V.M. Subrahmanya Ayyar translates it as:
"I am coming to take shelter under your feet"

I have the feeling that it is the same verb,
and here also it means coming,
what do you think?

Regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:
> At 08:36 19/04/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >KuRal: 1123
> >karu maNiyin pAvAy nI pOtA yAm vIZum<BR>
> >tirunutaRku illai iTam.
>
>
>
> >pOtA yAm        begone!
> >vIZum           will fall (in love)
>
...
> ><pOtal> could mean <to be born>, but is also means <to go>.
> >I don't see this word in this kuRaL
>
> I don't see pOtal either.
>
> All we have here is pOtA, which is the imperative (=Eval) of
pOtarutal
> like tA is the imperative of tarutal
>
> [the past stem is pOnt-, like in pOntEn2]
>
> [to be continued]
>

Actually what we may have here is the verb pOtu-tal
and its imperative form pOtAy
just like:
  vA-tal > vArAy

-------
pOtu-tal

otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 01 1. to be adequate; to suffice; 2. to be
competent, fit, proper; to be adapted, suitable; 3. to be respectable


pOtu-tal

otl pOtu-tal pOtu-tal 02 1. to go, pass, proceed; 2. to conduct
oneself, behave
-----------

Morever the palm size "popular"  edition of kuRal with commentary by
16-kavanakar Kanacuppuraththinam piLLai that I  carry with me
splits sandhi as "pOtAy yAm".

So we might not even be having "pOtaru-tal" there in the kuRal itself
notwithsatnding the deceptive occurrence of "pOtaru-tal" in pari.'s
commentary!


Regards
P. Chandrasekaran.

--- In CTamil@y..., "S.Kalyanaraman" <kalyan97@y...> wrote:
> --- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:.
> > The subject line of this message announces
> > two questions. They are the following:
> > 1. Do other people familiar with classical Tamil litterature
> >    agree with this analysis
> > 2. What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal,
> >   which I am embarassed to translate: it usually means "to come",
> >   but somehow this does not seem to make sense in the context,
> >   this might be the reason why the above-mentioned translator
> >   has rendered it by "Begone".
>
> po_tarutal = po_taral = po_kutal (Katirve_l Pil.l.ai Akara_ti)
> po_kutal means, to go'; also, ne_rmai (rectitude).

Dear Prof. Chevillard and Dr. Ganesan,
vaNakkam.
Pleased to see that a list devoted to classical Tamil is started.
Of course it would have been better to discuss these freely on
Indologty itself despite the points raised by Jean.

Wishing the list all the best, I continue with the pOta  tal
verb.
It has like many other Tamil words bears opposite senses which is
an interesting subject by itself.
[Cf. el = light and evening; nizal = light and shadow etc.]

The Colgne MTL does list the "come" and "go" senses both at:

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/otl_search.html

pOtA-tal(pOtarutal)

otl pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) 01 1. to go, pass; 2. to
return; 3. to come; 4. to be inferred; 1. to carry away; 2. to bring;
3. to welcome, receive with courtesy


pOtA-tal(pOtarutal)

otl pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) pOtA-tal(pOtarutal) to leave aside (TLS)


tiruppAvai verse # 11:
"kaRRuk kaRavai kaNaGkaL pala kARantu
....
puRR(u) arav(u) alkul pun2a mayilE pOtarAy
...
"

Here in this beautiful verse,
  the pAvai girls stand in the courtyard of a girl and
ask her to come join them.

Regards
P.Chandrasekaran.

At 14:48 19/04/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Dear Tamilists/Dravidologists/Indologists,
>
>I have announced to lists that will attract Tamil experts
>to Classical Tamil yahoogroup



Dear Dr Ganesan,

thanks a lot!

-- jlc

>N. Ganesan

Dear Tamilists/Dravidologists/Indologists,

I have announced to lists that will attract Tamil experts
to Classical Tamil yahoogroup at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CTamil

Pl. see
i) Agathiyar egroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/message/9004
ii) www.tamil.net
http://www.tamil.net/list/2001-04/msg00357.html
iii) Indic Traditions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indictraditions/message/5100
iv) Indian Civilization
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/5115

Regards,
N. Ganesan

At 10:05 19/04/01 -0400, you wrote:
><what does eZutaru mean?>
>< what does iZitaru precisely mean?>
>In what context are you asking??
>Can you give the relevant quotes?
>V. V. Raman
>April 19, 2001

My question is a general question

But to make it specific, if we take kuRuntokai

1.what is the common value to the form eZutaru which we find in
    195-2, 259-1, 315-1, 398-7?
2. what is the common value to the forms iZitarum which we find in
    78-3, 95-1, 134-6, 200-3, 284-7, 332-5, 339-3?
3. Is there something (which a linguist could describe in terms
   of "aspect", etc.) that is common to both these forms and may-be also to
   uTaitarum (351-4, 381-6)
   Urtara (195-5)
   Urtarum (205-7)
   eRitarum (110-7)
   Ertarum (287-8)
   cErtarum (275-3)
   peyartara (340-6)

I am taking all these examples from a concordance of kuRuntokai
which I made. I could give the full quotes, but I believe this is faster
if you have a standard edition.

I hope this clarifies my question.

Regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

<what does eZutaru mean?>
< what does iZitaru precisely mean?>
In what context are you asking??
Can you give the relevant quotes?
V. V. Raman
April 19, 2001

At 08:36 19/04/01 -0400, you wrote:
>KuRal: 1123
>karu maNiyin pAvAy nI pOtA yAm vIZum<BR>
>tirunutaRku illai iTam.



>pOtA yAm        begone!
>vIZum           will fall (in love)

Please compare with the patavurai of the commentators

parimElaZakar replaces pOtA (in his gloss) by pOtaruvAyAka
maNakkuTavar replaces pOtA by pOtuvAyAka
I did not check the others

As far as yAm is concerned, it is a 1st person plural pronoun
(mentionned in tolk. peyariyal 8)

In the 3rd case it becomes emmAl "by us"

parimElaZakar replaces yAm vIZum by emmAl virumpappaTTa
maNakkuTavar replaces yAm vIZum by emmAl virumpappaTTa

>In my rhymed translation of the TirukkuRaL (Book I was published by
>Manimekalai Prasuram , Chennai, January 2001).
>
>Oh image in my pupil, begone from there!
>No place for my love, with eye-brows fair.
>
><What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal, which I am embarrassed to
>translate: it usually means to come, but somehow this does not seem to make
>sense in the context, this might be the reason why the above-mentioned
>translator has rendered it by.
>< pOtarutal> means <to come and go>.

This is a very interesting point.
Do you mean to say that it expresses a COMPLEX movement?
(to come AND then to go, expressed with one single word)
I never thought of it like this. Then to describe verbs of movements
in Classical Tamil, we should  maybe try to check the technical
vocabulary that was developped for the description of Russian verbs
of movement (it is also a very intricate domain)

This is a topic which has to be explored further
(what does eZutaru mean? what does iZitaru precisely mean?)
[although I am sure some work must have been done on it, possibly by Steever]

><pOtal> could mean <to be born>, but is also means <to go>.
>I don't see this word in this kuRaL

I don't see pOtal either.

All we have here is pOtA, which is the imperative (=Eval) of pOtarutal
like tA is the imperative of tarutal

[the past stem is pOnt-, like in pOntEn2]

[to be continued]

>.
>
>V. V. Raman
>April 19, 2001

Regards

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

P.S. I enjoy being able to discuss technical points
without restriction. On Indology, I always felt
like it would bore 95% of the list.

P.S. Please invite other people to join,
who like classical Tamil texts like you do.

KuRal: 1123
karu maNiyin pAvAy nI pOtA yAm vIZum<BR>
tirunutaRku illai iTam.
karumaNiyin: black gem's (pupil's)
  pAvAi:  image
nI 		 you, thou
pOtA yAm  begone!
vIZum  will fall (in love)
tirunudaRku  beautiful eye-brow
illai 	 no, not
iTam  place.

In my rhymed translation of the TirukkuRaL (Book I was published by
Manimekalai Prasuram , Chennai, January 2001).

Oh image in my pupil, begone from there!
No place for my love, with eye-brows fair.

<What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal, which I am embarrassed to
translate: it usually means to come, but somehow this does not seem to make
sense in the context, this might be the reason why the above-mentioned
translator has rendered it by.
< pOtarutal> means <to come and go>.
<pOtal> could mean <to be born>, but is also means <to go>.
I don't see this word in this kuRaL.

V. V. Raman
April 19, 2001

At 11:27 19/04/01 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:.
> > The subject line of this message announces
> > two questions. They are the following:
> > 1. Do other people familiar with classical Tamil litterature
> >    agree with this analysis
> > 2. What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal,
> >   which I am embarassed to translate: it usually means "to come",
> >   but somehow this does not seem to make sense in the context,
> >   this might be the reason why the above-mentioned translator
> >   has rendered it by "Begone".
>
>po_tarutal = po_taral = po_kutal (Katirve_l Pil.l.ai Akara_ti)

For T.Lex. this is one among 4 possible meanings
(see below)

>po_kutal means, to go'; also, ne_rmai (rectitude).

That item (=pOkal) is the one referred to by tolkAppiyam, uriyiyal, 19
[Rajam edition]
but it is distinct from pOtarutal.

To concentrate on pOtarutal,
one can compare your quotation with T.Lex.
where they gives 4 different meanings
for pOtarutal when it is intransitive
   1. to go, pass (= cellutal)
   2. to return (= tirumputal)
   3. to come (=varutal)
   4. to be inferred (=peRappaTutal)
and 3 different meanings when it is transitive
(which is not the case with our kuRaL example)

For each meaning, T.Lex. gives quotations from Tamil Classics
(respectively kalit., nAlaTi., civ. periyAJ., tirukkO. urai)

So, since everyone of these meanings
seems to be attested, the difficulty, it seems to me, is:

FIRST to understand how (or to say whether)
it is possible for the same word
to have (had) at the same time seemingly contradictory meanings
like "coming" and "going"
       (you may remember the discussions on the word "en2al"
        that occurs twice in kuRaL 196, first with a negative meaning
       "do not call (him) (this)!" and then with a positive meaning
       "call (him) (that)!", but in that case one would imagine that the stress
        might be  positionned at a different place)

SECOND to explore whether there might have not been different stages
   in that situation. As far as I know, -taru was used at some periods
   in combination with verbal roots, like for instance iZitaru, eJutaru, etc.
   That might have been a regular formation at the beginning
   but might have been misunderstood later.

What is your opinion?

Best Regards

[to be continued]

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)

--- In CTamil@y..., Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD <JLC@C...> wrote:.
> The subject line of this message announces
> two questions. They are the following:
> 1. Do other people familiar with classical Tamil litterature
>    agree with this analysis
> 2. What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal,
>   which I am embarassed to translate: it usually means "to come",
>   but somehow this does not seem to make sense in the context,
>   this might be the reason why the above-mentioned translator
>   has rendered it by "Begone".

po_tarutal = po_taral = po_kutal (Katirve_l Pil.l.ai Akara_ti)
po_kutal means, to go'; also, ne_rmai (rectitude).

Dear List members,

there was recently an exchange of views
started by Peter Claus on the VYAKARAN list
and concerning the words in indian languages
that could refer to a puppet, a doll, an effigy, an image,  a clay image,
a wooden figures, etc. (These are not his very words, I am summarizing).

He mentioned, among other things,
'bombe' (Kannada and Tulu),
pommai  (Ta), bomma (Te and Ma), etc.

To my knowledge, the standard word
having these meanings in CTamil is pAvai.

I am aware of occurences like the following examples
taken from kuRuntokai (the translations are taken from
M. Shanmugam Pillai and David Ludden, 1976,
Madurai, Koodal publishers)

8-1: ATip pAvai pOla: "like an image in the mirror"
48-1: taN pan2ip pAvai  "(your) doll, made of pollen dust"
89-6: pAvai = (image of the) goddess (drawn on the slope of Kolli hill)
195-6: "my body, like a doll perfectly made"
(There are 7 more occurrences, but this gives an idea)

And of course, there is the famous kuRaL 1123
karu maNiyiR pAvAy nI pOtA yAm vIZum
tirunutaRku illai iTam

but I always had problems with some (technical?) points
in the english translations available to me, like for instance:
"O pupil of my eye! Begone; there is no room for my fair-browed beloved"
     (translation included in the 1976 republication by Madurai Univ.
       of kO. vaTivElu ceTTiyAr's edition of parimElaZakar's commentary)

The commentary of parimElaZakar says:
(1) en2 kaNNiR karumaNiyin2kaN uRaiyum pAvAy,
(2) nI aGkunin2Rum pOtaruvAyAka,
(3) pOtarAtiruttiyAyin2,
(4) emmAl virumpappaTTa tirunutalai uTaiyATku
(5) irukka iTam illaiyAm.

Which I understand as:
(1) O image (pAvai) that resides in the pupil (karumaNi) of my eye
(2) you please move/go/come (pOtarutal) from there!
(3) [because] if you do not move/go/come,
(5) there will be no place to stay
(4) for the one that possesses the dear forehead desired by us/me.
   (sorry for the clumsiness of this, hopefully, litteral translation)

As pointed by Nicholas Ostler,
who took part in the discussion on VYAKARAN,
the etymology of "pupil"
goes back to Latin pupilla,
a diminutive of pup(p)a, the Latin for a doll;

And elaborating on the semantic link
between "puppet" (doll, effigy, image)
and  "eyeball", he added that
it was always explained to him
by the  fact that people are reflected
in the pupil and look like little  miniatures
from the view of an outside observer
gazing deep into  another's eye!

Now coming back to kuRaL 1123,
I think my uneasiness with the translation
stems from the fact that the tamil text
has two distinct terms:
    karumaNi: the apple of the eye
    pAvAy: vocative of pAvai: (miniature) image (inside the karumaNi)
whereas the english translation
has only one, "pupil", which has then
to take a double meaning.

The subject line of this message announces
two questions. They are the following:
1. Do other people familiar with classical Tamil litterature
    agree with this analysis
2. What is the exact meaning here of pOtarutal,
   which I am embarassed to translate: it usually means "to come",
   but somehow this does not seem to make sense in the context,
   this might be the reason why the above-mentioned translator
   has rendered it by "Begone"

[à suivre]

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (Paris)

My best wishes for this new group.
May this shine as yet another star in the firmament of Tamil language
and literature, scholarship and wisdom.
vAZga tamiZmoZi, vAZga centamiZ!
Mes meilleurs voeus pur ce groupe, et mes felicitations a celui qui
l'a inaugure.
V. V. Raman
le 18 avril, 2001

Welcome to the Classical Tamil list!

The following message is a copy
of a message sent to the members of
the INDOLOGY list <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY>
to invite those of them interested
in Classical Tamil to join this list.

I include it here as a testimony
to the way this list was conceived
in its first stage.

an2puTan2

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD

************************

Dear List Members,

following the kind advice of Tiru N.Ganesan,
I have decided to try to set up a new list
which would be dedicated mostly
to discussions on Classical Tamil
(Topics concerning Modern Tamil
and Sanskrit are of course not excluded).

This new list, which has an open membership,
unless its future members later decide otherwise,
has its home page at the following URL:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CTamil>,
which you can use if you want to subscribe.

While taking part in discussions on the Indology List,
founded by Dominik Wujastyk,
I often had the feeling that it was not possible
(or not advisable)
to have long in-depth discussions
on questions pertaining to Classical Tamil,
and especially Classical Tamil Literature,
because the section of the readership of INDOLOGY
really interested in them was too small.

This is not to say that Tamil should be in a ghetto,
but I feel that, in some cases,
a discussion could eventually start on INDOLOGY
be continued on CTAMIL, with a possible pointer
being sent back to INDOLOGY when an interesting discussion
has taken place (and possibly reached a conclusion).

This might not be a realistic view
but one has to give a try.

So, welcome to Classical Tamil,
alias <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CTamil>.

Regards to everybody!


an2puTan2

-- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD