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Modified version of Gary's gain mod preserves default DI/O filter c   Message List  
Reply Message #891 of 3276 |
Re: Gain Spreadsheet...one more time

I'll try to on my layman's hat. In:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIOmods/files

I have added an updated spreasheet correcting a number of
typos from the original, you can get it here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIOmods/files/Gary%27s%20stuff/Filter_dio.xls


Sheet 1: Updated/Edited version of Gary's spreadsheet
Sheet 2: Ray's Spreadsheet for advance users
Sheet 3: Gary's original spreadsheet...locked

Most users will want to use Sheet 1. Here there are six different filter
alignments that all line up in terms of response at only one particular
frequency called the cutoff frequency "Fc". At this frequency all filter
alignments (butterworth, bessel, etc) put out 1/2 the power the would near 0 Hz.

The best filter would have flat response below Fc and infinite rolloff above Fc
in the frequency domain.We can go for Filters with lower "eta" values will have
variation/peaking below Fc but more rolloff/(fster rolloff) above Fc.

The flattest response below Fc is Butterworth with eta=0.707 in terms of sine
wave response. If you put a square wave input, the output will ring/overshoot
just a bit on the top of square wave. Some clever person came up with the Bessel
filter(with slight higher eta=0.866) that has no overshoot BUT less roll of
above Fc.

All the Chebyshev filters tradeoff flatness in sine wave response below Fc for
MORE rolloff above Fc. The Art DI/O has an ETA=0.729
and rolls off just a bit slower than the Butterworth but like the Bessel with
have a better square wave time response (but not as good as the Bessel). The
downside to a slower rolloff rate is that digital
noise artifacts could get into your music. With this background in
"eta"/damping factor lets get back to the spreadsheet. For most hobbyist, the
general goal is to preserve the "ETA-0.729" of the orginal deign and second the
Fc (equivalently the Wo) of the original design and altering only the gain.


In the spreadsheets, only the "green" squares are allowed to be altered by the
user. For most users, only "Gain" needs to be altered.
The Fc should be set to 50.3KHz and the Fc, Wo, and eta of the original design
will be preserved for any gain setting. The corresponding resistor values are
given in "DI/O default" which stands for the default characteristic.

The "instructions A" that Gary gave in his original spreadsheet allow you to
keep R4=20K by altering Fc until R4 shows 20K. This is generally not a good
thing to do as we are violating one of the ten commandments of filter design
when we change Fc.

Instructions B illustrate combinations of "gain" and "fc" (along with filter
alignment...ie. eta) that give rise to corresponding resistor combinations that
have been generated in this "filter thread".

The 8.23K resistor for R3 (R1=11.7K R4=20K) gave an eta of 0.52 or a 1.02 dB
Chebyshev alignment. Changing R3 only to 823 will give a Bessel alignment
(eta=0.866) but the the Fc=97.4Khz...which is much too high.

Putting in Gain=-4.255 and Fc=50.3Khz will allow you to see the calulator
generate the default R1=4.7K, R4=20K and R3=4.7K alignment that came with stock
D/IO. Finally, putting in any gain you like in
entry "B2" will show you the resistor values for your new design in the row
labelled DI/O default characteristic. I hope this helps.

PeAK





--- In DIOmods@y..., "Bob McNeice" <ptmconsulting@a...> wrote:
> As Doug stated in his post - can you put this into laymen's terms ...?
>
> The values Ray recommended was to simply swap out the (R4) 20K
> resistors for the (R3) 4.7K resistors. I don't see these values in the
> post below. Does that mean that this approach has been adjusted also -
> or does this still make sense?
>
> > Gain = (?)
> > R1=R14, R15, R20, R22 = 4.7K
> > R4=R13, R18, R19, R24 = 4.7K
> > R3=R16, R17, R21, R23 = 20K
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gbronn" <gbron@w...>
> To: <DIOmods@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 6:09 PM
> Subject: [DIOmods] Gain Spreadsheet Updated
>
>
> > I'd like to thank Ray Chau for catching an error in my gain
> > spreadsheet and I'd also like to apologize to everyone for the
> > error. The calculation for R3 (= R16, R17, R21, R23) had an error
> > that gave a number that was a factor of 10 high.
> >
> > Here are the correct numbers:
> >
> > Gain = 1
> > R1=R14, R15, R20, R22 = 20K
> > R4=R13, R18, R19, R24 = 20K
> > R3=R16, R17, R21, R23 = 773 (closest standard value = 768)
> >
> > Gain = 1.5
> > R1=R14, R15, R20, R22 = 13.3K
> > R4=R13, R18, R19, R24 = 20K
> > R3=R16, R17, R21, R23 = 808 (closest standard value = 806)
> >
> > Gain = 1.67 (for doug)
> > R1=R14, R15, R20, R22 = 11.98K
> > R4=R13, R18, R19, R24 = 20K
> > R3=R16, R17, R21, R23 = 821 (closest standard value = 825)
> >
> > I haven't tried putting in the right values into my DI/O, so I can't
> > comment on how important this is to the sound.
> >
> > Once again, I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.
> > ---Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >




Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:14 pm

peakrchau
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Message #891 of 3276 |
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bob, according to what i could make of peak's analysis, gain should be 1.2157. but, when i plug this walue into gary's updated spreadsheet, and adjust the...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
1:56 pm

I'll try to on my layman's hat. In: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIOmods/files I have added an updated spreasheet correcting a number of typos from the...
peakrchau Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
3:15 pm

ok peak... ;~) working off of your file, both "gary's corrected edited sheet", & "ray's sheet", i am unable to come up w/the values you say i should get, when...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
4:44 pm

As I say to my younger brothers from time to time..."you guys kill me". I thought that the problem was that the frequency entered was 10x to high (extra zero)...
peakrchau Offline Send Email Mar 19, 2002
3:04 am

Man I must be stupid! Please help me with a simple answer (yes or no). I played with this new spreadsheet, but I still don't see how I can validate that...
Bob McNeice
ptmconsulting2 Offline Send Email
Mar 18, 2002
4:53 pm

ok, bob, don't feel so alone - yure not the *only* stupid one here! ;~) the best i can make out, per peak's last post, is peak's walue would also be gain = 1,...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
5:57 pm

Bob, You do not need to make a separate "post" for each of your queries. Instead of click on the "Post" icon in the left hand menu...go to the thread that you...
peakrchau Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
8:14 pm

Sorry about the extra "posts". I never go to the DIOMODS site at Yahoo to post - I just reply to the e-mail in Outlook. Never knew this caused a problem since...
ptmconsulting2 Offline Send Email Mar 18, 2002
8:23 pm

Bob and Doug and others, I think Ray (aka Peak) isn't doing a very good job of explaining himself, but he has actually done us a rather good turn. He put in a...
gbronn Offline Send Email Mar 19, 2002
2:51 am

Hey Gary, I apologize for rubbing you the wrong way within a spreadsheet ... I did not intend to in a state of "glee", but rather, to be transparent on the...
peakrchau Offline Send Email Mar 19, 2002
12:59 pm

thanks, peak, for your hard work. yup, i totally missed your scientific notation - i yust figured this was somehow related to your spreadsheet cell formulas. ...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 19, 2002
4:46 pm

Thanks Gary and Peak. I actually implemented Peak's suggestion of swapping the 4.7K and 20K resistors, and although I did get a reduced gain (actually sounds...
ptmconsulting2 Offline Send Email Mar 19, 2002
1:07 pm

The gain will be 20% lower than the 3.5x attenuator gain adjust that gives (4.255/3.5=1.21 vs 1 for the swap). I found that with just the resistor swap the...
peakrchau Offline Send Email Mar 20, 2002
2:43 am

... in...this may be an issue with tweaking. ... You just took the words out of my mouth. I just tweaked a friend's DI/O this morning (jumped output caps, 75...
ptmconsulting2 Offline Send Email Mar 20, 2002
5:27 pm

Bob, My $.02 - check the cap at C16 first. Should be ceramic or silver mica (fast). I was planning to put a poly cap here as well and the brain trust (Gary,...
buenosdio Offline Send Email Mar 21, 2002
3:31 am

I traded my digital tweaked board with my buddy's stock one - the slowness disappeared. So something I did to the digital board is the cause of this. I took...
ptmconsulting2 Offline Send Email Mar 21, 2002
12:29 pm

well, i have one-o-dem big fat polypropylene "orange-drop" caps (stock walue) i got from angela.com at c16, & no slowness to my di/o. also, i have 33uf...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 21, 2002
7:26 pm

Hi Doug, just a few comments FWIW. C16 really should be a RF-type cap, ceramic, mica, silver mica, because of its application. This is not to say another type...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 21, 2002
10:39 pm

craig, thanks for the tips. the reason i tried the polypropylene cap at c16 is someone here mentioned they tried it & liked it, so, i figured i'd give it a...
sedond Offline Send Email Mar 22, 2002
3:04 am

Hi again Doug, yeah, I know what you mean about when something's sounding good, you hate to maybe ruin it. But...right now, for both of us I guess, is the best...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 22, 2002
4:03 am

... I thought the LT 1362 was the ticket with the DIO until ... I tried try the Edcor units, especially the 600:600. The 10k:600 is no slouch, either--provided...
gtrmkr2@...
gtrmkr2 Offline Send Email
Mar 22, 2002
1:14 am

Hi Jim, where did you get your Edcors? I recall that the Edcors are sufficiently large that they have to be mounted externally, that's why I haven't gotten any...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 22, 2002
3:02 am

... Get them directly from Edcor: http://www.edcorusa.com/magnetics/audio/matching.htm Friendly folks. Yes, they do need to be mounted externally, but I've...
gtrmkr2@...
gtrmkr2 Offline Send Email
Mar 22, 2002
2:44 pm

Thanks guys. Somehow I missed the order info at the Edcor site, it loaded up funny here too... I'll also check out what Farnell has, but can't use RS as they...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 22, 2002
9:00 pm

Chris, If you're ordering some trans from the states, perhaps I can tag along for a couple. We both can save on shipping, tax, etc. I'm in Scarborough and...
S.Fraser
lowtherclub Offline Send Email
Mar 22, 2002
9:15 pm

Hi Scott, Yes, I'm in Pickering, so not too far. Makes sense to order together: may not save tax, but will save some shipping and one PO $5 charge. I'm having...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 23, 2002
3:33 am

Chris, No problem. As always, I have too many things on my plate. I just finished a few mods to my phono stage, so the Dio has been quiet. I traded some...
S.Fraser
lowtherclub Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2002
4:05 am

Did you still want to go with something from Edcor? I am trying to get a handle on Farnell offerings here. It's weird that Newark shows no listings for them,...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 26, 2002
6:49 pm

Also: I note Edcor has two x:x transformers mounted on a PCB for ~$16, and also the same PCB/trans mounted in a box with RCA in/out jacks for ~$22. These trans...
cbottca Offline Send Email Mar 27, 2002
3:18 am

Chris, I think you know more about them than I. I will therefore defer to your decision, and go along for the ride. Both sound(?) good, but if I order both,...
S.Fraser
lowtherclub Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2002
5:39 am
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