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Reply | Forward Message #88598 of 98141 |
RE: [Digital BW] Re:MIS Newsletter

(Some rambling thoughts ...)

Steve Kale wrote, in part:

>>What¹s wrong with a company (anyone) wanting to protect and
>>generate a return from its intellectual capital?

That's indirectly one of the legal issues: How far does the protection
(legal monopoly) extend? Several courts have stated that the monopoly does
not extend into adjacent markets, including after market replacement parts,
which seems similar to aftermarket ink sales.

>>Nothing wrong with shopping around for a free lunch but
>>you should be happy you had a free lunch this far.

I don't want to see Epson damaged by this any more than I want to see the
aftermarket ink and cartridge sellers damaged. I think the challenge here
is to come up with a win-win strategy. I agree we should not expect to free
ride on anyone, and at the low end we probably have been.

Being realistic, what may happen is that Epson's actions will cut off the
mass market of cheap, pre-filled carts, while more sophisticated and
determined people -- including probably the real photo enthusiasts as
opposed to average snap shooters -- will find ways to circumvent the
problem, such as buying the empty carts on eBay or from an oversees seller
and re-filling. Re-filling carts seems like a problem Epson will have to
fight by making the carts very re-fill un-friendly. Blocking all the
easy-refill carts from overseas will probably be too expensive to bother
with.


Tony Wells wrote, in part:

>... Low useage amateurs would be worse off while professional
>printers would be better off,

In the original IBM case where their tying of punch card sales to the
business machines was declared an illegal "tying" agreement, the economic
justification for the IBM conduct was said to be that the punch cards were a
method of "metering" usage. The way the high volume users paid more than
the low volume users, which seemed like a fair way to more closely equate
price with the value of the machine to the user.

If the scenario of the more sophisticated people more easily getting around
the ban happens, it may end up that the higher volume users in the real
world figure out how to avoid the meter, while the less sophisticated pay
the premium.

I have assumed Epson, in fact, is not selling the more sophisticated
machines at a loss. The Epson rep who visited me the week before they filed
the ITC matter seemed mostly concerned with the low end. The 220 was the
printer we discussed the most in this regard. He stated Epson lost money on
those sales, and to compound the damage, the 220 was so good it was seen as
cannibalizing the sales of the profitable, more expensive printers.

While B&W ink sales are hardly the main focus of Epson's concern, I'd be
rather happy to see a solution that allowed Epson to compete head to head
with the others that are doing this same thing at the 260 level (letter or
A4 size) if the 13" or 1800-2400 and up level was wide open.

Epson has made some fine printers for our purposes. I hope they continue to
do so. It would sure be nice if both sides saw each other as partners as
opposed to adversaries.

As a Hasselblad rep once said to me: photographers tend to be creative and
cheap. I can't see Epson succeeding in keeping at least the B&W enthusiasts
in their proprietary, expensive box. It's just not going to happen.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com





Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:26 pm

pr_roark
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Message #88598 of 98141 |
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Perhaps the way Epson shuld go is to charge a realistic price for their printers and the same for their inks, rather than subsidising one withthe other. Low...
Tony Wells
gunner_wells
Online Now Send Email
Nov 10, 2007
2:20 pm

(Some rambling thoughts ...) ... That's indirectly one of the legal issues: How far does the protection (legal monopoly) extend? Several courts have stated...
Paul Roark
pr_roark
Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2007
4:24 pm

With all the software hacking and computer viruses in this world, does anyone think that a "firmware solution" will be created by a smart programer to trick...
Mark Savoia
ctphoto1
Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2007
4:41 pm

Mark, I have heard about a new attempt that might be implemented by Epson. Similar to how you can track a computer, either just the HD or the processor #,...
Eric Neilsen
platinumeric
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Nov 10, 2007
5:13 pm

This means war! ... Mark...
Mark Savoia
ctphoto1
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Nov 10, 2007
5:14 pm

... in ... fire? ... a ... Well said, Mark. I have wondered for the last two years, why a CIS unit couldn't be designed and implemented that had a direct...
Native Texan Photogra...
hedgpeth_98
Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2007
1:54 am

... OK. Heres an idea for you. Take some IV bags and tubing.Fill them with ink.Buy 4,6,8, whatever, 3000 dampers and connect to the tubing. Draw ink through...
dlruckus
Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2007
3:26 am

... My Epson 9000 CIS systems had that seven years ago. Bottles directly connected to the internal ss ink lines inside. Still in use at some places. Only...
Ernst Dinkla
ernstdinkla
Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2007
10:48 am

Just to pick up on one point here Mr Roark, though not contentiously. Here in the UK the car manufacturers have either a 2 or 3 year absolute monolpoly of...
Tony Wells
gunner_wells
Online Now Send Email
Nov 10, 2007
7:09 pm

with all due respect to everyone's posted opinions here and elsewhere, it's been a bit frustrating to see on every list I've seen with threads about this...
Tyler Boley
tboleyyh
Offline Send Email
Nov 10, 2007
7:47 pm

... Forgive, but this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :-) Impacting the outcome is a matter of business and law; what makes you think otherwise? Dana...
Dana H. Myers
dana_myers
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Nov 10, 2007
7:59 pm

No, it's how they decide to interpret and apply the law, and that is as yet not finalized in this case. Read the posts by Jon and Paul....
Tyler Boley
tboleyyh
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Nov 10, 2007
8:32 pm

A: Business: If Epson can make money with what they are doing, they will do it, if they cannot, they will not. It is up to the customer base to insure that...
Robert W Shearer
iceman15613
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Nov 10, 2007
8:58 pm

I hate to defend lawyers and international corporations, but.... This isn't "about business and law" ... it's about entrepreneurs and Chinese exporters who...
djon43
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Nov 11, 2007
3:41 am

... <dana.myers@...> wrote: ... by the way Dana... I gave of clinging to the facade of making sense long ago, as you see it's not my forte. Tyler...
Tyler Boley
tboleyyh
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Nov 10, 2007
10:20 pm

... A matter of business? What is business but a transaction between a supplier and a consumer? Epson only controls one end of the transaction. We control the...
Bruce Watson
bwyg1x
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Nov 10, 2007
10:43 pm

Hello Tyler, At present the Epson thing is an issue for the US but it will most likely rear its head in some guise or other here in the UK - and of course ...
stephengledhill
virtuallygrey
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Nov 10, 2007
11:09 pm

There may be another complication in this case that I do not think has been mentioned. At its most basic, this is an argument about protection of intellectual...
Stephen Kobrin
voranado
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Nov 10, 2007
11:55 pm

In this connection, does anyone know if there have ever been discussions about licensing? Is licensing an option for, say, MIS or Piezography (which offer a...
Mitch Greenwald
migreenw
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Nov 11, 2007
12:00 am

... Yes, and Dr. Susan Schwab, head of the U.S. Trade office and whose court this ball is now in, is perhaps best known for her book on the trade offs that...
Paul Roark
pr_roark
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Nov 11, 2007
3:35 am

Paul - Is there anything to be gained by pointing out to the decission makers that Epson does not provide the product that is needed by the b&w printing...
Tom Baker
tombakerprints1
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Nov 11, 2007
5:27 am

... I do think it's relevant that the B&W community has products that are innovative and different, not just cheap knock-offs of Epson's products. Epson will,...
Paul Roark
pr_roark
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Nov 11, 2007
5:55 am

Some interesting comments by an attorney in this DPR thread (5th post down) concerning the composition of the ITC. ...
Carl Schofield
scho_2000
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Nov 12, 2007
1:19 am

Did somebody already mention that we could write to ITC and give them hell for what they decided? We could also tell the government that we want health care...
RobLee
roblee007
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Nov 12, 2007
2:13 pm

Those who use large format printers, and are thus not affected by the recent decision, should not become complacent. Here's a quote from the Epson FAQ: *Epson...
Mitch Greenwald
migreenw
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Nov 13, 2007
6:44 am

Paul, After writing to the President and our Congressmen should we also be sending letters to Dr. Susan Schwab? John Parascak http://web.mac.com/johnparascak...
jwhorfin88
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Nov 11, 2007
5:55 pm

... <stephengledhill@...> wrote: ... I can ... Hi Steve, I'm sure you are right, let's hope your willingness inspires some more colonists. Other Steve, I'm...
Tyler Boley
tboleyyh
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Nov 11, 2007
12:11 am

Tyler, Being pessimistic does not mean giving up. I agree with you. Steve...
Stephen Kobrin
voranado
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Nov 11, 2007
2:54 pm

I suspect this is a "community" that makes B&W prints more than it is an "ink" community. This "community" will decide to agitate, or not. Is it passionate...
djon43
Online Now Send Email
Nov 11, 2007
3:43 am

so now it's about my poor use of language. There seems to be something I'm completely missing regarding a lot of this discussion. So, you're saying I should do...
Tyler Boley
tboleyyh
Offline Send Email
Nov 11, 2007
5:00 am
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