Matt, Rouzbeh, et al.,

The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this group is a result of FLI's (my)
desire to not moderate or censor its forum. FLI does not have the manpower to do
so. If we did this, we would end up with a long lag between released messages.
You see this already when images are posted and I have to release them. We could
hire someone to do this for us (you). I would then raise the prices on our
products to pay this person's salary and benefits. This benefits nobody.

We would then have to decide "offensive" or "constructive". That would be very
subjective. That would likely result in posters being made upset. Just the
opposite policy of what we have now would likely result in the same amount of
pain for FLI. Furthermore, it would definitely squelch debate and science as
people would be afraid to tick off the moderator.

That being said, we expose the nature of our competitors' groups. Their groups
are locked down tighter than bank vault. If we had the same policy, it would be
easy for us to adopt or perceived to have adopted a screening policy that would
prohibit any message from being posted that seemed critical of FLI's products or
even mentioned our competitors'. It certainly would make my life easier if
nobody, in an open forum, discussed what would be, in open debate, viewed as a
product defect or deficiency. Imagine the QSI vs FLI debate on any other forum.
You all know there was no interference by FLI on this. All of you know you can
bring up anything, be it positive or negative, without repercussion from FLI.

FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without
flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best. To provide an on-point example,
look at the current CCDSoft discussion going on. I am the FLI software guy. If I
were a moderator of convenience, like our competitors', that would never have
made it to the group. Neither would the "which filters are better" discussion,
"halos", etc...

This group has some vocal members. Some fly off the handle and say things they
shouldn't. Seriously, nobody should be told their images look like crap. That
was out of line. But, those comments can be ignored or self-censored. If you
don't like what you hear, then hit the delete key. This is no different than the
television. These same people, more often than not, provide valuable technical
knowledge to the group. I have been chastised hard and long for not banning
certain members. Some hate me for taking this stand. And, yes Dean, we likely
have lost business as a result of this. I have been told as much. I would rather
lose business than fall on my principles. Squelching speech is not me.

If this prevents you from buying a product from us, I believe you should
reconsider. Think of this as a strength, not weakness. Just remember that
whenever you need help or have a question and FLI isn't available or your
question is beyond the scope of what FLI provides, you might get help and what
you need. You will also get information that has not been screened or adjusted
to/for FLI's taste. Just look over the last few years of the things that have
been covered on this group. Imagine what the field would be like without it.

Regards,
Jim Moronski
FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
Finger Lakes Instrumentation, LLC

Plug-ins are currently being written for CCDSoft and TheSkyX. Betas
should be posted to the group before the end of the year. I know this
has been said before, but the development is right now and is active.

-Jim

On 11/8/2011 5:10 PM, rdcrisp@... wrote:
>
>
> Ditch Bisque and use Maxim
> I suspect the only reason you use CCDSOFT is because it came free with
> an SBIG camera.
> Since you probably ditched the clearly inferior SBIG product, I
> recommend doing the same with the clearly deficient BISQUE software.
> Clearly deficient in the sense that it doesn’t permit you to use the
> features built into the camera.
> *From:* Olivier <mailto:olivierfp@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 7:01 PM
> *To:* FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com>
> *Subject:* [FLI_Imaging_Systems] An RBI question for Richard,
>
> Hi,
> I use CCDSoft with an ML16803 and do not have a way to activate the NIR
> flood. I was wondering if using light from an el flat screen could
> achieve the same purpose? It may take a higher intensity and longer to
> reach the area where the traps are, but could this be a workable
> technique? The laser light RBI slide in your SPIE paper seems to
> indicate it could, but I am not the expert here.
> Regards
> Olivier
>
>
>
>

> The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this ....

Jim, this is absolutely false and I may prove it.

It is forbidden to tell the truth about difficulties encountered with your
products
and your totally deficient support.

You delivered to us a PL9000, at full price, that was barely in alpha test mode,
we
had failures after failures, and your only proposal was that we spend at least
2000
USD for a camera a few weeks old. You refused our proposal that was at a very
minimal cost for you as well as for us. And  years after it is not yet fixed.

You have time to moderate the list, but not to answer about what you did with
the
money (thousands of USD) we sent several years ago for a filter wheel and a set
of
Astrodon filters never received.

There is no way to believe what you tell. 48 hours after we had *privately*
reported
ice crystals on our CCD (on a some 100 days camera) you wrote on the FLI list
"FLI
cameras never leak"! What a lie!

The only allowed critics on your list are these made by your sponsored hit man
against all your competitors and some providers he had issues for reasons not
even
related to technical issues, but personal issues. You may not, in good faith
ignore
that.

But there is worse, you let (and certainly encourage) him to made claims you
perfectly know are false, just because they serve your interests.


I had only false promises after false promises from FLI.


> Their groups are locked down tighter than bank vault.

Absolutely false, it is just brainwashing, but you are an expert in that matter.
There is not a week without, on some of these groups, people reporting issues,
And not only they may be freely discussed, but they are solved on the contrary
of
what I see with FLI, where the one complaining is immediately told to contact
off-list and moderated.


> FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without
> flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best.

The best..., it is just commercial claims, you have yet to prove it to me and
not by
an additional cost of more than 2000 USD.

> This group has some vocal members.

Why the plural? There is only your sponsored guy.


> These same people, more often than not, provide valuable technical
> knowledge to the group.

Add 'biased' please.


> Squelching speech is not me.

I am waiting to see that mail on your list

> Jim Moronski
> FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
              ****************

That is the best one! The group is not moderated, but there is a moderator!

One more lie from you, Jim, sorry.

If you want an extended list of your lies and these of Greg, ask me, just allow
me
to use your mails.


Now I will appreciate if I may use my PL9000. All the issues you may not ignore
Where well inside the warranty period (a few months), and you were told in time.

I want these issues fixed, if you are not courageous enough to publish that
mail, it
doesn't matters.

And BTW, point me to only one message to the list in which what I wrote was not
the
truth.
You moderate me just because I was telling the truth about the failures of your
products and services.

It is a surprising implementation of free speech.



Jean-Claude PELLE
Southern Stars Observatories.

Statements like this are what keeps me coming back to FLI when I feel the need
to upgrade imaging equipment. I really appreciate the honest and straight
forward way they do business. I have been lied to by just about all of the other
cam makers out there. One even took full payment up front and NEVER delivered
the product. Dealing with FLI is like breathing fresh air again.

Richard doesn't work for FLI and to not consider purchasing from them because of
his statements is like cutting your nose off despite your face. Equipment should
be judged based on specs not what people discuss on user groups.

In ways I can understand why Richard is a bit harsh in his statements. He has an
extensive technical background and understands why things need to be done a
certain way. Now imagine if you were him and year after year you had to keep
explaining the same basic ideas over and over again. Then toss in a bunch of
people who will deny to the bitter end that what you are saying is even
truthful. Yes maybe he could tone it down a bit sometimes but put into the above
context I can understand his frustration.

Maybe this can all be put into a new marketing ploy for the other companies. Buy
our equipment over FLI's because you don't want Richard Crisp showing up at your
house to personally attack you and forget about the fact that it's an inferior
product. Lame I know but I wouldn't put it past them.

Chuck




--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jmoronski-ng@...> wrote:
>
> Matt, Rouzbeh, et al.,
>
> The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this group is a result of FLI's
(my) desire to not moderate or censor its forum. FLI does not have the manpower
to do so. If we did this, we would end up with a long lag between released
messages. You see this already when images are posted and I have to release
them. We could hire someone to do this for us (you). I would then raise the
prices on our products to pay this person's salary and benefits. This benefits
nobody.
>
> We would then have to decide "offensive" or "constructive". That would be very
subjective. That would likely result in posters being made upset. Just the
opposite policy of what we have now would likely result in the same amount of
pain for FLI. Furthermore, it would definitely squelch debate and science as
people would be afraid to tick off the moderator.
>
> That being said, we expose the nature of our competitors' groups. Their groups
are locked down tighter than bank vault. If we had the same policy, it would be
easy for us to adopt or perceived to have adopted a screening policy that would
prohibit any message from being posted that seemed critical of FLI's products or
even mentioned our competitors'. It certainly would make my life easier if
nobody, in an open forum, discussed what would be, in open debate, viewed as a
product defect or deficiency. Imagine the QSI vs FLI debate on any other forum.
You all know there was no interference by FLI on this. All of you know you can
bring up anything, be it positive or negative, without repercussion from FLI.
>
> FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without
flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best. To provide an on-point example,
look at the current CCDSoft discussion going on. I am the FLI software guy. If I
were a moderator of convenience, like our competitors', that would never have
made it to the group. Neither would the "which filters are better" discussion,
"halos", etc...
>
> This group has some vocal members. Some fly off the handle and say things they
shouldn't. Seriously, nobody should be told their images look like crap. That
was out of line. But, those comments can be ignored or self-censored. If you
don't like what you hear, then hit the delete key. This is no different than the
television. These same people, more often than not, provide valuable technical
knowledge to the group. I have been chastised hard and long for not banning
certain members. Some hate me for taking this stand. And, yes Dean, we likely
have lost business as a result of this. I have been told as much. I would rather
lose business than fall on my principles. Squelching speech is not me.
>
> If this prevents you from buying a product from us, I believe you should
reconsider. Think of this as a strength, not weakness. Just remember that
whenever you need help or have a question and FLI isn't available or your
question is beyond the scope of what FLI provides, you might get help and what
you need. You will also get information that has not been screened or adjusted
to/for FLI's taste. Just look over the last few years of the things that have
been covered on this group. Imagine what the field would be like without it.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Moronski
> FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
> Finger Lakes Instrumentation, LLC
>

Not to get into a argument with you but your post made it's way onto the user
group. Now maybe Jim could respond to this?


--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Southern Stars Observatories"
<jcpelle@...> wrote:
>
> > The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this ....
>
> Jim, this is absolutely false and I may prove it.
>
> It is forbidden to tell the truth about difficulties encountered with your
products
> and your totally deficient support.
>
> You delivered to us a PL9000, at full price, that was barely in alpha test
mode, we
> had failures after failures, and your only proposal was that we spend at least
2000
> USD for a camera a few weeks old. You refused our proposal that was at a very
> minimal cost for you as well as for us. And  years after it is not yet fixed.
>
> You have time to moderate the list, but not to answer about what you did with
the
> money (thousands of USD) we sent several years ago for a filter wheel and a
set of
> Astrodon filters never received.
>
> There is no way to believe what you tell. 48 hours after we had *privately*
reported
> ice crystals on our CCD (on a some 100 days camera) you wrote on the FLI list
"FLI
> cameras never leak"! What a lie!
>
> The only allowed critics on your list are these made by your sponsored hit man
> against all your competitors and some providers he had issues for reasons not
even
> related to technical issues, but personal issues. You may not, in good faith
ignore
> that.
>
> But there is worse, you let (and certainly encourage) him to made claims you
> perfectly know are false, just because they serve your interests.
>
>
> I had only false promises after false promises from FLI.
>
>
> > Their groups are locked down tighter than bank vault.
>
> Absolutely false, it is just brainwashing, but you are an expert in that
matter.
> There is not a week without, on some of these groups, people reporting issues,
> And not only they may be freely discussed, but they are solved on the contrary
of
> what I see with FLI, where the one complaining is immediately told to contact
> off-list and moderated.
>
>
> > FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without
> > flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best.
>
> The best..., it is just commercial claims, you have yet to prove it to me and
not by
> an additional cost of more than 2000 USD.
>
> > This group has some vocal members.
>
> Why the plural? There is only your sponsored guy.
>
>
> > These same people, more often than not, provide valuable technical
> > knowledge to the group.
>
> Add 'biased' please.
>
>
> > Squelching speech is not me.
>
> I am waiting to see that mail on your list
>
> > Jim Moronski
> > FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
>              ****************
>
> That is the best one! The group is not moderated, but there is a moderator!
>
> One more lie from you, Jim, sorry.
>
> If you want an extended list of your lies and these of Greg, ask me, just
allow me
> to use your mails.
>
>
> Now I will appreciate if I may use my PL9000. All the issues you may not
ignore
> Where well inside the warranty period (a few months), and you were told in
time.
>
> I want these issues fixed, if you are not courageous enough to publish that
mail, it
> doesn't matters.
>
> And BTW, point me to only one message to the list in which what I wrote was
not the
> truth.
> You moderate me just because I was telling the truth about the failures of
your
> products and services.
>
> It is a surprising implementation of free speech.
>
>
>
> Jean-Claude PELLE
> Southern Stars Observatories.
>

Rumors are just that - rumors.  If you base your hardware purchase on some
perceived imbalance of opinion, I think you could do far worse than listen to
Richard. Yes, he is abrasive. Yes, he is not politically correct. Too bad.
Listen to what he says and not how he says it. He is far from ignorant about the
issues he discusses. He lives, breathes, and works with this stuff all time.

A pretty picture is just that as well. Some people appreciate the oversaturated
blindingly contrast boosted photos. Others don't and appreciate subtly. Once
again, they are opinions, not absolute truths. Get the best hardware you can,
image to your best ability, and massage the data as little or as much as you
wish. Publish it for all to comment on or keep it private, sitting back and
enjoying the fruits of your labor without extraneous comment. If you put it out
there for comments and opinions, then comments and opinions you will get, both
positive and negative; deal with it! That's life! Pretty simple isn't it?


--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Dean S" <dean@...> wrote:
>
> Matt,
>
> Where you around for the “thin the herd” thread???  That should go down in
history like this one.
>
> I heard rumors from AIC about Crisp and how is assumed association with FLI is
hurting them in the market.
>
>
>
> From: Matts Sporre
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 4:34 PM
> To: FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [FLI_Imaging_Systems] Re: My opinon
>
>
>
>
> Rouzbeh,
>
>
> You have my support and I could add to the list, but you already made your
point.
>
>
> No other group I listen in to have the frequency of statements like the ones
you listed.
>
>
> BR
> Matts
>
>
>
>
> 7 nov 2011 kl. 23:59 skrev "roozbeh_bid" <rbidshahri@...>:
>
>
>
>
>
>   "it is unusual it doesn’t happen very often Jeanette"
>
>   I have to point out the contradiction here.
>   Unfortunately we have to bear examples like these in the past few days:
>
>   "It seems I have to tell people this simple thing about 50 times per year"
>   "here are doing when you do dumb things"
>   "I am just trying to teach you that obviously don’t understand"
>   "of putting garish oversaturated crap up on the internet and calling it a
â€�"pretty pictureâ€"
>   "Perhaps it is a cultural thing? I’ve certainly noticed a
correlation."
>   "I did lump it into a growing set that I collectively call crap"ö
>   "ignorant teaching the beginners utter rubbish"
>
>   I doubt anybody will appreciate these comments whatever your
intentions/reasons specially the borderline racial ones!
>
>   As you can see these have already had a detrimental effect on Jeanette.
>
>   I do agree with one line though:
>
>   "you can do what you want including destroying faint reflection….."
>
>   --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, <rdcrisp@> wrote:
>   >
>   > it is unusual
>   >
>   > it doesn’t happen very often Jeanette
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > From: nettielamb63
>   > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 2:12 PM
>   > To: FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
>   > Subject: [FLI_Imaging_Systems] My opinon
>   >
>   >
>   > I joined this group because I will soon be levelling up from my unmodded
DSLR.
>   > I was recommended a FLI by Paul Haese and Mike Sidonio.
>   > But if the recent "crap" I've witnessed in this group is the sort of abuse
I'm to expect when I start posting my first images, well, I'd rather buy a
different brand of camera just so I can join a support group where I know I
won't be dumped on for processing an image to my own taste.
>   > You've lost me here and FLI have lost a customer.
>   > cs
>   > Jeanette Dunphy
>   >
>

Ok, I'll bite.

If I join a forum I expect to be spoken to respectfully.
I can take constructive criticism, in fact I crave it, it's the only way to move
forward and learn.
But I will NOT tolerate condescension nor any form of abusive comments towards
myself or my work.
And I should NOT be expected to just "deal with it" either.
Already I've been told I've "failed the intelligence test".LOL
You don't even know me Mr Crisp. Why did you say that?
Are you so scared of me that you immediately went into the defensive? I'm no
threat to anyone, I assure you. I'm just a country girl who loves Astronomy and
Astro Imaging.
In my 7 years in this hobby I've managed to become one of the most highly
respected female imagers in Australia. I've had my share of success. I've been
published, not only in Australia, but also the UK
(a front cover of "The Astronomer" last year, and back cover this year) and had
an article commissioned and published in the US mag Astro Technology Today. Most
recently I was short listed for the ROG awards.
One must assume it would take some form of intelligence to have achieve this
much in just a few years.
I would appreciate it if you would keep such negative remarks to yourself in the
future as far as I'm concerned. thank you very much.


--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "nettielamb63" <nettielamb63@...>
wrote:
>
> I joined this group because I will soon be levelling up from my unmodded DSLR.
> I was recommended a FLI by Paul Haese and Mike Sidonio.
> But if the recent "crap" I've witnessed in this group is the sort of abuse I'm
to expect when I start posting my first images, well, I'd rather buy a different
brand of camera just so I can join a support group where I know I won't be
dumped on for processing an image to my own taste.
> You've lost me here and FLI have lost a customer.
> cs
> Jeanette Dunphy
>

What projects are you working on Jim?

I'd like to know the upcoming products FLI is planning.

Best,

Greg.

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jmoronski-ng@...> wrote:
>
>
> All,
>
> Show respect to everyone on the group! This group exists to promote the
> hobby and the science behind the hobby. People should not be afraid to
> post their images, techniques, etc... and any criticisms should be
> positive and constructive. This group is unmoderated and is not heavily
> monitored by FLI. This is because FLI believes that everyone should act
> like adults and has faith in its customer base that, even if
> disagreements start or someone says something that is either
> inappropriate or is taken as inappropriate, it is handled in an
> appropriate way.
>
> We have cameras and accessories to design and build. We do not have the
> time to moderate every post. Furthermore, we also don't want to squelch
> reasonable and constructive debate with the time it takes to moderate
> and approve messages or the fear of censorship.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Moronski
> Finger Lakes Instrumentation, LLC
>

That's good news Jim.

Greg.

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, Jim Moronski <jmoronski-ng@...>
wrote:
>
> Plug-ins are currently being written for CCDSoft and TheSkyX. Betas
> should be posted to the group before the end of the year. I know this
> has been said before, but the development is right now and is active.
>
> -Jim
>
> On 11/8/2011 5:10 PM, rdcrisp@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ditch Bisque and use Maxim
> > I suspect the only reason you use CCDSOFT is because it came free with
> > an SBIG camera.
> > Since you probably ditched the clearly inferior SBIG product, I
> > recommend doing the same with the clearly deficient BISQUE software.
> > Clearly deficient in the sense that it doesn’t permit you to use the
> > features built into the camera.
> > *From:* Olivier <mailto:olivierfp@...>
> > *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 7:01 PM
> > *To:* FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com>
> > *Subject:* [FLI_Imaging_Systems] An RBI question for Richard,
> >
> > Hi,
> > I use CCDSoft with an ML16803 and do not have a way to activate the NIR
> > flood. I was wondering if using light from an el flat screen could
> > achieve the same purpose? It may take a higher intensity and longer to
> > reach the area where the traps are, but could this be a workable
> > technique? The laser light RBI slide in your SPIE paper seems to
> > indicate it could, but I am not the expert here.
> > Regards
> > Olivier
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Yes Jim ....thanks!  I find CCDSoft has a few advantages when using CCDAutoPilot
compared with Maxim.

Cheers,
Tim

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <bradgregley10@...> wrote:
>
> That's good news Jim.
>
> Greg.
>
> --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, Jim Moronski <jmoronski-ng@>
wrote:
> >
> > Plug-ins are currently being written for CCDSoft and TheSkyX. Betas
> > should be posted to the group before the end of the year. I know this
> > has been said before, but the development is right now and is active.
> >
> > -Jim
> >
> > On 11/8/2011 5:10 PM, rdcrisp@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ditch Bisque and use Maxim
> > > I suspect the only reason you use CCDSOFT is because it came free with
> > > an SBIG camera.
> > > Since you probably ditched the clearly inferior SBIG product, I
> > > recommend doing the same with the clearly deficient BISQUE software.
> > > Clearly deficient in the sense that it doesn’t permit you to use the
> > > features built into the camera.
> > > *From:* Olivier <mailto:olivierfp@>
> > > *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 7:01 PM
> > > *To:* FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com>
> > > *Subject:* [FLI_Imaging_Systems] An RBI question for Richard,
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I use CCDSoft with an ML16803 and do not have a way to activate the NIR
> > > flood. I was wondering if using light from an el flat screen could
> > > achieve the same purpose? It may take a higher intensity and longer to
> > > reach the area where the traps are, but could this be a workable
> > > technique? The laser light RBI slide in your SPIE paper seems to
> > > indicate it could, but I am not the expert here.
> > > Regards
> > > Olivier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

HI Time,
What advantages are those? I use Maxim with CCDAutoPilot, so I am curious.
Floyd

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "topcat4445" <topcat4445@...> wrote:
>
> Yes Jim ....thanks!  I find CCDSoft has a few advantages when using
CCDAutoPilot compared with Maxim.
>
> Cheers,
> Tim
>
> --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <bradgregley10@> wrote:
> >
> > That's good news Jim.
> >
> > Greg.
> >
> > --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, Jim Moronski <jmoronski-ng@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Plug-ins are currently being written for CCDSoft and TheSkyX. Betas
> > > should be posted to the group before the end of the year. I know this
> > > has been said before, but the development is right now and is active.
> > >
> > > -Jim
> > >
> > > On 11/8/2011 5:10 PM, rdcrisp@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ditch Bisque and use Maxim
> > > > I suspect the only reason you use CCDSOFT is because it came free with
> > > > an SBIG camera.
> > > > Since you probably ditched the clearly inferior SBIG product, I
> > > > recommend doing the same with the clearly deficient BISQUE software.
> > > > Clearly deficient in the sense that it doesn’t permit you to use the
> > > > features built into the camera.
> > > > *From:* Olivier <mailto:olivierfp@>
> > > > *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 7:01 PM
> > > > *To:* FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> > > > <mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > *Subject:* [FLI_Imaging_Systems] An RBI question for Richard,
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I use CCDSoft with an ML16803 and do not have a way to activate the NIR
> > > > flood. I was wondering if using light from an el flat screen could
> > > > achieve the same purpose? It may take a higher intensity and longer to
> > > > reach the area where the traps are, but could this be a workable
> > > > technique? The laser light RBI slide in your SPIE paper seems to
> > > > indicate it could, but I am not the expert here.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Olivier
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

 

Matt, Rouzbeh, et al.,

The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this group is a result of FLI's (my) desire to not moderate or censor its forum. FLI does not have the manpower to do so. If we did this, we would end up with a long lag between released messages. You see this already when images are posted and I have to release them. We could hire someone to do this for us (you). I would then raise the prices on our products to pay this person's salary and benefits. This benefits nobody.

We would then have to decide "offensive" or "constructive". That would be very subjective. That would likely result in posters being made upset. Just the opposite policy of what we have now would likely result in the same amount of pain for FLI. Furthermore, it would definitely squelch debate and science as people would be afraid to tick off the moderator.

That being said, we expose the nature of our competitors' groups. Their groups are locked down tighter than bank vault. If we had the same policy, it would be easy for us to adopt or perceived to have adopted a screening policy that would prohibit any message from being posted that seemed critical of FLI's products or even mentioned our competitors'. It certainly would make my life easier if nobody, in an open forum, discussed what would be, in open debate, viewed as a product defect or deficiency. Imagine the QSI vs FLI debate on any other forum. You all know there was no interference by FLI on this. All of you know you can bring up anything, be it positive or negative, without repercussion from FLI.

FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best. To provide an on-point example, look at the current CCDSoft discussion going on. I am the FLI software guy. If I were a moderator of convenience, like our competitors', that would never have made it to the group. Neither would the "which filters are better" discussion, "halos", etc...

This group has some vocal members. Some fly off the handle and say things they shouldn't. Seriously, nobody should be told their images look like crap. That was out of line. But, those comments can be ignored or self-censored. If you don't like what you hear, then hit the delete key. This is no different than the television. These same people, more often than not, provide valuable technical knowledge to the group. I have been chastised hard and long for not banning certain members. Some hate me for taking this stand. And, yes Dean, we likely have lost business as a result of this. I have been told as much. I would rather lose business than fall on my principles. Squelching speech is not me.

If this prevents you from buying a product from us, I believe you should reconsider. Think of this as a strength, not weakness. Just remember that whenever you need help or have a question and FLI isn't available or your question is beyond the scope of what FLI provides, you might get help and what you need. You will also get information that has not been screened or adjusted to/for FLI's taste. Just look over the last few years of the things that have been covered on this group. Imagine what the field would be like without it.

Regards,
Jim Moronski
FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
Finger Lakes Instrumentation, LLC

Now wait a minute: I did not say you failed the intelligence test. I said if
you went and bought a demonstrably inferior product solely on the basis of a
perceived insult that you have failed the intelligence test.

If you can’t see the distinction in your allegation versus my restatement, I
suggest you read it again until you can.

I think it is great that you are such a gifted imager and applaud your
achievements.

Since we are getting to know each other, here’s a bit of my background:

I developed the tricolor emission line imaging method in broad use beginning
6 months after I began imaging in 2000 (
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/264861.jpg ). I wrote the
definitive article on the subject in the Aug 2005 S&T
(http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/tricolor_emission_line_imaging_crisp_page.htm
  ).

I also have published peer-reviewed papers in SPIE journals on the topic of
Residual Bulk Image, these are professional journals that cater to the world
of image sensor and optics design engineers. I would be willing to wager
that my paper on RBI I presented at the SPIE’s “Electronic Imaging Science
and Technology Symposium” conference in January of 2009 was the only such
paper given on the basis of HOBBY work...  (
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/rbi_paper_crisp_page.htm )

Most recently I had an expanded version of the paper published in the SPIE’s
“Journal of Electronic Imaging” (
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/033006_1_1314293318_1.pdf )

I also published a non-technical version of it for S&T and it appeared in
the August 2011 issue

I was an invited speaker at Image Sensors Europe in March of this year,
which is a professional conference with leading researchers from the major
image sensor companies (Kodak, E2V, Dalsa, Fairchild, Omnivision etc) and
several major European universities speaking or in attendance
(http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/Image_sensors_europe_crisp.ppsx ).
And I have been shunned/boycotted and banned from every major astroimaging
conference because three or four vendors refuse to participate if I am
permitted to speak or even attend because they know they are selling
overpriced junk and I have never been shy about pointing it out. I don't
care what people say or think about me. I don't need their approval to
function in my career or to feel good about myself. I deal in reality and
that is that.

I have been a semiconductor technologist for over 35 years and am the CTO of
a major silicon valley semiconductor technology intellectual property
company and have over 19 issued US patents and have filed over 20 in the
past year and a half on recent work.

and I began my career in electrical engineering by designing the CPUs in the
first three generations of Macintosh computers.

So I know what I am talking about when it comes to the technology and I
simply don't suffer any fools, of which this hobby is laden to the gills. I
don't have time to beat around the bush, so I just say it the way I see it.
I travel nearly continuously in Asia promoting the technology we are
developing and making deals with leading semiconductor and computer
manufacturers. I post in this group and a couple of others because I hate to
see bad information propagated and when I know the  truth I speak up. It
does no one any good to walk around believing things that just aren't true.

If you want to know something I am  happy to help if I can, and I cite
scholarly references where applicable; I don't just wave my hands and say
"because I say so" as is the modus operandi in most of the forums.

Before my work in RBI people just "dealt with it". Now the better camera
companies all have implemented the method I outlined in my papers, which is
what flew on the Cassini and Galileo probes.

I have taught many imagers how to characterize their cameras with the Photon
Transfer method (learn full well, gain, read noise, linearity, photoresponse
non uniformity and dark signal non-uniformity when using the basic method)
( http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/ptc_method_wsp2009_page.htm ) so when one
of us that I taught says what the read noise is, you can take it to the
bank. BS is not a commodity I carry in stock; you can find plenty of that
elsewhere.

And in the course of doing all of that, I've serendipitously discovered four
planetary nebulae, all of which were confirmed by spectroscopic analysis at
WIYN and were covered in papers written by a professional astronomer (Dr.
George Jacoby of WIYN). One of my early tricolor multispectral emission line
images even appeared on the cover of a graduate textbook on star formation
written by Dr Norbert Shulz of MIT, who is a member of the Spitzer research
team ( http://space.mit.edu/home/nss/ )

Nice to know you, Jeannette!
-Richard








From: nettielamb63
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 8:54 PM
To: FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FLI_Imaging_Systems] Re: My opinon




Ok, I'll bite.

If I join a forum I expect to be spoken to respectfully.
I can take constructive criticism, in fact I crave it, it's the only way to
move forward and learn.
But I will NOT tolerate condescension nor any form of abusive comments
towards myself or my work.
And I should NOT be expected to just "deal with it" either.
Already I've been told I've "failed the intelligence test".LOL
You don't even know me Mr Crisp. Why did you say that?
Are you so scared of me that you immediately went into the defensive? I'm no
threat to anyone, I assure you. I'm just a country girl who loves Astronomy
and Astro Imaging.
In my 7 years in this hobby I've managed to become one of the most highly
respected female imagers in Australia. I've had my share of success. I've
been published, not only in Australia, but also the UK
(a front cover of "The Astronomer" last year, and back cover this year) and
had an article commissioned and published in the US mag Astro Technology
Today. Most recently I was short listed for the ROG awards.
One must assume it would take some form of intelligence to have achieve this
much in just a few years.
I would appreciate it if you would keep such negative remarks to yourself in
the future as far as I'm concerned. thank you very much.

--- In mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems%40yahoogroups.com, "nettielamb63"
<nettielamb63@...> wrote:
>
> I joined this group because I will soon be levelling up from my unmodded
> DSLR.
> I was recommended a FLI by Paul Haese and Mike Sidonio.
> But if the recent "crap" I've witnessed in this group is the sort of abuse
> I'm to expect when I start posting my first images, well, I'd rather buy a
> different brand of camera just so I can join a support group where I know
> I won't be dumped on for processing an image to my own taste.
> You've lost me here and FLI have lost a customer.
> cs
> Jeanette Dunphy
>

HI'a Netti!

I see you've been introduced LOL :P

It's true what Jeanette is saying and she would be a very worthy user of an FLI
camera

Don't let Richard's forum tourettes get up your nose, he grows on you in time
and above all is a VERY helpful individual! You will likely come to love him XX

Mike



--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "nettielamb63" <nettielamb63@...>
wrote:
>
> Ok, I'll bite.
>
> If I join a forum I expect to be spoken to respectfully.
> I can take constructive criticism, in fact I crave it, it's the only way to
move forward and learn.
> But I will NOT tolerate condescension nor any form of abusive comments towards
myself or my work.
> And I should NOT be expected to just "deal with it" either.
> Already I've been told I've "failed the intelligence test".LOL
> You don't even know me Mr Crisp. Why did you say that?
> Are you so scared of me that you immediately went into the defensive? I'm no
threat to anyone, I assure you. I'm just a country girl who loves Astronomy and
Astro Imaging.
> In my 7 years in this hobby I've managed to become one of the most highly
respected female imagers in Australia. I've had my share of success. I've been
published, not only in Australia, but also the UK
> (a front cover of "The Astronomer" last year, and back cover this year) and
had an article commissioned and published in the US mag Astro Technology Today.
Most recently I was short listed for the ROG awards.
> One must assume it would take some form of intelligence to have achieve this
much in just a few years.
> I would appreciate it if you would keep such negative remarks to yourself in
the future as far as I'm concerned. thank you very much.
>
>
> --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "nettielamb63" <nettielamb63@>
wrote:
> >
> > I joined this group because I will soon be levelling up from my unmodded
DSLR.
> > I was recommended a FLI by Paul Haese and Mike Sidonio.
> > But if the recent "crap" I've witnessed in this group is the sort of abuse
I'm to expect when I start posting my first images, well, I'd rather buy a
different brand of camera just so I can join a support group where I know I
won't be dumped on for processing an image to my own taste.
> > You've lost me here and FLI have lost a customer.
> > cs
> > Jeanette Dunphy
> >
>

That looks fine to me Floyd because the colours look balanced, the stars have a
shine to them and it is an interesting mixed field :-)

Mike

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "bakersfieldbiker" <fblue@...>
wrote:
>
>
http://www.astrophotogallery.org/floyd-27s-pics/p8431-ic-1795-lrgb28reprocessed-\
29.html
>
> I am attempting to reprocess my data with more control and respect for nature.
My colors are more muted, but still present in abundance. Details are brought
out as fully as my data allows and contrast between colors and emmissions I try
to preserve.
>
> I would like honest opinions, positive or negative on this. If you dislike it,
please explain why, the same if you do like it.
>
> Honestly, I am trying to learn to do the best I can with LRGB and produce
photos that are pleasing and yet still maintain the integrity of the data and
image.
> Floyd
>

I must agree that FLI cameras are great and the customer service I have
experienced was the best when I have had problems.

I also agree that censorship and banning doesn��t have an overall positive
outcome in almost all situations.

Its seems Richard has in depth technical knowledge in this field, and has helped
a lot of people in the past including myself.

However, I also know that people, no matter who, will not respond positively to
harsh disrespectful words, that is human nature!

I am sure more experienced members can have a great positive impact (and genuine
respect) by not using a cannon to kill a fly.

Lets lighten the mood if we can folks �� and share this wonderful group�K..

After all it is a hobby we should enjoy (for me at least)

All the Best,
Rouzbeh,



--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "chuck" <goalt00@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Statements like this are what keeps me coming back to FLI when I feel the need
to upgrade imaging equipment. I really appreciate the honest and straight
forward way they do business. I have been lied to by just about all of the other
cam makers out there. One even took full payment up front and NEVER delivered
the product. Dealing with FLI is like breathing fresh air again.
>
> Richard doesn't work for FLI and to not consider purchasing from them because
of his statements is like cutting your nose off despite your face. Equipment
should be judged based on specs not what people discuss on user groups.
>
> In ways I can understand why Richard is a bit harsh in his statements. He has
an extensive technical background and understands why things need to be done a
certain way. Now imagine if you were him and year after year you had to keep
explaining the same basic ideas over and over again. Then toss in a bunch of
people who will deny to the bitter end that what you are saying is even
truthful. Yes maybe he could tone it down a bit sometimes but put into the above
context I can understand his frustration.
>
> Maybe this can all be put into a new marketing ploy for the other companies.
Buy our equipment over FLI's because you don't want Richard Crisp showing up at
your house to personally attack you and forget about the fact that it's an
inferior product. Lame I know but I wouldn't put it past them.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
> --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jmoronski-ng@> wrote:
> >
> > Matt, Rouzbeh, et al.,
> >
> > The uncensored and non-moderated policy on this group is a result of FLI's
(my) desire to not moderate or censor its forum. FLI does not have the manpower
to do so. If we did this, we would end up with a long lag between released
messages. You see this already when images are posted and I have to release
them. We could hire someone to do this for us (you). I would then raise the
prices on our products to pay this person's salary and benefits. This benefits
nobody.
> >
> > We would then have to decide "offensive" or "constructive". That would be
very subjective. That would likely result in posters being made upset. Just the
opposite policy of what we have now would likely result in the same amount of
pain for FLI. Furthermore, it would definitely squelch debate and science as
people would be afraid to tick off the moderator.
> >
> > That being said, we expose the nature of our competitors' groups. Their
groups are locked down tighter than bank vault. If we had the same policy, it
would be easy for us to adopt or perceived to have adopted a screening policy
that would prohibit any message from being posted that seemed critical of FLI's
products or even mentioned our competitors'. It certainly would make my life
easier if nobody, in an open forum, discussed what would be, in open debate,
viewed as a product defect or deficiency. Imagine the QSI vs FLI debate on any
other forum. You all know there was no interference by FLI on this. All of you
know you can bring up anything, be it positive or negative, without repercussion
from FLI.
> >
> > FLI delivers the best products and world class service. They are not without
flaws or deficiencies, but they are the best. To provide an on-point example,
look at the current CCDSoft discussion going on. I am the FLI software guy. If I
were a moderator of convenience, like our competitors', that would never have
made it to the group. Neither would the "which filters are better" discussion,
"halos", etc...
> >
> > This group has some vocal members. Some fly off the handle and say things
they shouldn't. Seriously, nobody should be told their images look like crap.
That was out of line. But, those comments can be ignored or self-censored. If
you don't like what you hear, then hit the delete key. This is no different than
the television. These same people, more often than not, provide valuable
technical knowledge to the group. I have been chastised hard and long for not
banning certain members. Some hate me for taking this stand. And, yes Dean, we
likely have lost business as a result of this. I have been told as much. I would
rather lose business than fall on my principles. Squelching speech is not me.
> >
> > If this prevents you from buying a product from us, I believe you should
reconsider. Think of this as a strength, not weakness. Just remember that
whenever you need help or have a question and FLI isn't available or your
question is beyond the scope of what FLI provides, you might get help and what
you need. You will also get information that has not been screened or adjusted
to/for FLI's taste. Just look over the last few years of the things that have
been covered on this group. Imagine what the field would be like without it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jim Moronski
> > FLI Yahoo! Groups Moderator
> > Finger Lakes Instrumentation, LLC
> >
>

One advantage that CCDSoft offered for me was Direct Guide of the ME Mount.  The
cable from the guide camera to the mount is eliminated.  Guide corrections are
sent through the USB cable to the mount.  Not possible in my case with Maxim.

The other advantage is I already had 2 copies of CCDSoft, one from purchase of
the mount and one from purchase of an SBIG 402 used as a guide camera.

--- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "bakersfieldbiker" <fblue@...>
wrote:
>
> HI Time,
> What advantages are those? I use Maxim with CCDAutoPilot, so I am curious.
> Floyd
>
> --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "topcat4445" <topcat4445@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes Jim ....thanks!  I find CCDSoft has a few advantages when using
CCDAutoPilot compared with Maxim.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <bradgregley10@> wrote:
> > >
> > > That's good news Jim.
> > >
> > > Greg.
> > >
> > > --- In FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com, Jim Moronski <jmoronski-ng@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Plug-ins are currently being written for CCDSoft and TheSkyX. Betas
> > > > should be posted to the group before the end of the year. I know this
> > > > has been said before, but the development is right now and is active.
> > > >
> > > > -Jim
> > > >
> > > > On 11/8/2011 5:10 PM, rdcrisp@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ditch Bisque and use Maxim
> > > > > I suspect the only reason you use CCDSOFT is because it came free with
> > > > > an SBIG camera.
> > > > > Since you probably ditched the clearly inferior SBIG product, I
> > > > > recommend doing the same with the clearly deficient BISQUE software.
> > > > > Clearly deficient in the sense that it doesn’t permit you to use the
> > > > > features built into the camera.
> > > > > *From:* Olivier <mailto:olivierfp@>
> > > > > *Sent:* Monday, November 07, 2011 7:01 PM
> > > > > *To:* FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > <mailto:FLI_Imaging_Systems@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > *Subject:* [FLI_Imaging_Systems] An RBI question for Richard,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I use CCDSoft with an ML16803 and do not have a way to activate the
NIR
> > > > > flood. I was wondering if using light from an el flat screen could
> > > > > achieve the same purpose? It may take a higher intensity and longer to
> > > > > reach the area where the traps are, but could this be a workable
> > > > > technique? The laser light RBI slide in your SPIE paper seems to
> > > > > indicate it could, but I am not the expert here.
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Olivier
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

On 2011-11-09 1:16 PM, kjcphoto2001 wrote:
> One advantage that CCDSoft offered for me was Direct Guide of the ME Mount.
The
> cable from the guide camera to the mount is eliminated. Guide corrections are
> sent through the USB cable to the mount. Not possible in my case with Maxim.

It is possible to ditch the cable using the Via Telescope method, if you turn on
the PulseGuide option in the TheSky-Controlled Telescope ASCOM driver.

Doug

--

Doug George
dgeorge@...

Diffraction Limited
Makers of Cyanogen Imaging Products
http://www.cyanogen.com/

100 Craig Henry Dr., Suite 202
Ottawa, Ontario,
Canada, K2G 5W3

Phone:    (613) 225-2732
Fax:      (613) 225-9688