Susan wrote:

> I am dedicated to improving bloodlines
> and creating the best possible kits...
> which includes health, personality,
> temperament.
> snip
> I spayed her without ever breeding her
> because I felt that willingly passing on
> a genetic defect would go against what I
> am trying to accomplish as a breeder.

Very well stated, Susan.

Judith wrote:

> Each breeder is entitled to consider
> what is and what is not worth breeding
> for.
> snip
> Just because I also happen to like the
> beauty of a panda,  DEW's and other
> marked ferrets, I will continue to work
> with those colors.

Very well stated as well, Judith.

It is the personal goals that separate us from each other and create the
differences in the animals.  If I don't like a particular breeder's
animals, then I don't like them.  Nothing personal - just my preference.
Same goes with ethics, standards, etc.

Thanks for playing nice!

AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

 

Hob A bred to Jill B
This results in 50% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill C
Hob A is then bred to Jill C
This results in 75% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill D
Hob A is then bred to Jill D
This results in 87.5% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill E
Hob A is then bred with Jill E
This results in 93.8% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill F
Hob A is then bred with Jill F
This results in 96.9% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill G

You get the picture.

> but I "Personally" think your vets 6%
> chance of defects is pretty low.

I think so as well.  Rule of thumb (so I have heard and not done much line
breeding) is that no one animal should contribute more than 50% of the
genectic make up.  For example:

Hob A bred to Jill B
This results in 50% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill C
Hob A is then bred to Jill C
This results in 75% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill D
Hob A is then bred to Jill D
This results in 87.5% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill E
Hob A is then bred with Jill E
This results in 93.8% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill F
Hob A is then bred with Jill F
This results in 96.9% genetic make up of Hob A in Jill G

You get the picture.

> <Susan - why don't you put the photos in the "vault" or something for this
> list?>

I would be happy to, that is the reason I took the pics, in case they could
have some educational value. Trust me, I sure as hell didn't enjoy handling
them to get the pics. Pssst, just tell me HOW to send it to the vault? *G*

Which is a question I would ask any breeders. does this ,make any sense or have
you ever felt this way?
The NTD kits, handling, examine them etc.. made me sick to my stomach. But it
wasn't the appearance that caused it. Yes they were kind of gross, but the
"clinical" part of me gets past that quickly. The sick feeling was more.. how
do I explain it? For the lost babies that never had a chance, for the jill
grieving her babies.... sadness.

>
>
> <I also had a few jills that would consistently have a "milk heat" and her
> offspring did as well.  I was told by a vet that this was genetic and
> considered a "bonus" (which I didn't!) for the larger farms because they
> could then breed them again for another litter ASAP. Anybody else notice this
> in specific lines?>

A BONUS?? NOT! I have only encountered it a couple of times and this is the
first year I even HAVE one of ny own offspring, so I have no experience to go
by on that yet.

>
> <For those that don't know - can you explain what this is (symptoms, genetic
> links, etc.) and what you found out about it?

Well, here is a short snippet description:
"In short, CMP is a congenital problem in some lines of ferrets that manifests
as ferrets get older. CMP means that the muscle of
the heart becomes progressively weaker, and the heart is no longer strong
enough to pump all of the blood. As the muscle
weakens, it stretches, and the heart gradually enlarges, sort of like a
balloon. "

My current understanding is, it can happen at any age, some animals may have a
pre-disposition towards it. It is less common that young, otherwise healthy
ferrets would drop over from it... however, the vet who did my necropsies says
that in cases where they were born with the heart defect yet otherwise fine,
you may never know it until it flares up. And it will commonly flare up about
the time the ferret hits full maturity. Which both the ones I lost were right
about 7 months old when it flared.
For more info on the subject, you can check out...
http://www.ferretcentral.org/faq/med/cardio.html

>
> <Speaking of colours . . . I seriously think we need to establish what they
> are>

Okay... we definitely need some *ground rules* on colors. LOL Cause even the
things you describe there, I know as a different name. This is going to be
interesting..... soooooo.. how do we establish a "universal" color guide?

> We're waiting for necropsies.

Forgot to ask - do you have photos?  I would be interested in seeing
necropsy photos as well, if available.

> For one, a panda jill (under 1 yr. old)
> with no ribs that we could feel.  She is
> one we weren't allowed to take.

PLEASE check with your state dpt of Ag. or the USDA.  In MI it is illegal
to breed ferrets with genetic defects!  This may be true in your state as
well and this may give you guys leverage to remove these ferrets from this
person.  If anything, he may be required under law to spay her at least.

> When we asked about this little girl,
> we were told "she has a birth defect".

Anybody know what sort of birth defect would not allow a ribcage to form?
I wonder how her poor little organs are protected?!?!

> Two of the 5-6 week olds (also pandas)
> died within 24 hours.  Their ribcages
> also were deformed, they seemed too small,
> almost pinched.

No doubt due to poor resperatory conformation.

Anybody know what would casue their rib cages to be so narrow - aside from
bad conformation or nutrition?

> We're waiting for necropsies.

Please keep us posted on this.  And on how the other ferrets from this
person go.

> The owner of these animals has been
> breeding ferrets for many years.

This doesn't surprise me, however, I hope you can get enough support and
evidence to STOP this person's actions.

> We know there is inbreeding.

This may be illegal as well.  Double check with your state dtp.of Ag. or
the USDA.

> In closing, I would like to say that
> we hope to go back and rescue the rest,
> but as of this date, we don't know.

I seriously wish you luck.  Double check with your state laws on this
person . . . are they complient with the state?  Dig deep.  If you need
assistance, do not be afraid to ask.

> I also see deaf ferrets frequently

I see them going in breeder classes at shows.  I see them at shows not
known that they are deaf.  It is hard to determine if a ferret is deaf in
an environment like that, however, or if they are just attentive to their
surroundings.

> Zima, who is deaf, has raised a
> litter of (I think 11) before I got
> her and a litter of 4 here.  She is
> the best mother I have ever seen.

Good point, Judith.  Could it be she is partial hearing?  I had a lovely
DEW jill that was just a doll.  She was wonderful.  She seemed to hear us
fine so we bred her (she was one of the first jills we bred).  She was a
wonderful mother.  So protective and attentive to the kits, yet so gentle
with us messing with them.  She took anything as her own at any age.  Every
once in a while I would find a kit just screaming bloody murder.  It would
be around by her butt or by her back and I would pick it up and show it to
her.  She would get this paniced look on her face and take it and tuck it
away under her.  From this I figured she was partial hearing.  She is
retired now (has been for quite some time) and is now completely deaf.  Her
kits that we kept to breed from (all hearing) also have/had her lovely
mothering instincts.

So the question is - genetic or taught?  Nature vs. Nurture?

> Why does Marshall Farm continue sending
> these ferrets to the Petstores, without
> telling them that these ferrets may be deaf.

Simply because they sell and are in high demand.

Amy,  I would only address one thing.  The statement that deafness is a
danger for the kits.  Zima, who is deaf, has raised a litter of (I think 11)
before I got her and a litter of 4 here.  She is the best mother I have ever
seen.  Gentle, and constantly caring for her babies.  She raised all of both
litters and they were all healthy!

I think a poor mother is a poor mother with or without hearing.  And the
reverse is true.
Judith Moon, owner Moonsong Ferretry, a totally different kind of ferretry.
http://moonsongferrets.virtualave.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <aflemmin@...>
To: <Ferret-Genetics@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferret-Genetics] Digest Number 3


> First off - I may be way off here - if I am PLEASE let us all know.  And
> proof is good, too! <g>
>
> > Isn't deafness a resessive gene and
> > therefor you might know when you breed
> > to another carrying the gene?
>
> >From my understanding, it depends on what sort of deafness it is.  If it
is
> colour associated (usually is with blazes, DEWs, etc) then it is colour
> linked (WS).  In this case, I belive WS is a dominent (?) gene resulting
in
> a posibility of full hearing, partial hearing, or non-hearing.  So you
> might not know you are breeding two ferrets that are full hearing, but
> carrying the gene for deafness.  The result *could* be deaf kits.
>
> > then why not breed to a hearing
> > ferret anyway?
>
> Because you don't know for sure if the hearing ferret is carrying that
> deafness.  You certinaly can try to limit it.
>
> > Maybe it is just me, but I don't
> > think that deafness is such a bad
> > problem, as compared to others. I
> > own two deaf ferrets and they are
> > both sweet.
>
> Once it is identified and dealt with, it is not generally a problem for
the
> ferret - or owner.  However, some ferrets are never "found out" and
> continually have "adjustment" or "aggression" probelms.  Some of them are
> put to sleep because of it.
>
> Deafness is most dangerous for the kits of deaf jills.  Since crying is
the
> way kit comunicate to their mums that they are away from her, hungry, etc,
> she may not get to a lost kit on time or even engage in mothering
> instincts.
>
> Rule of thimb for me - don't breed a deaf animal - no matter what species.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
> Remember the good 'ol days
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5531/6/_/_/_/961560656/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

> I have only been *studying* breeding
> at all for about 3 years

Susan - this is a GOOD thing!  many people don't study anything until they
are having problems.  Good on ya . . .

> Anything I say may come across
> opinionated but is based soley on
> my own learning and experiences.

But that is how we learn the best - from our own experiences.  And those of
others!  So please share!  don't be afraid to ask questions - even if you
think they are stupid.  Even if you think others will think you are stupid
that you don't know.  at least when people ask questions they WANT to know
and not just pretend they know or not care to know.  Questions are good and
nothing to be ashamed of.  Neither are mistakes.  Mistake better us and
they can better others.

> I don't mind a discussion or debate,
> we may end up learning from each other.
> Just please, no flames. LOL

This is the whole point, folks.  Lets debate.  Lets put out our opinions.
Persuade others to our opinions (with proof please - that is funner for the
rest of us) - but respect them if they do not wish to share your opinion.

> I had one litter in which 2 of 4 kits
> have Neural Tube Defects...

Susan - why don't you put the photos in the "vault" or something for this
list?  A while back I had kits born with no tails (all kits, hob, and jill
were desexed after that) and took photos that I will scan in and put in as
well.  I think it helps if folks can identify genetic problems by sight, as
well as with text.

On that note - if anybody has files they wish to bring into the "vault" as
well, please do (but keep them to .txt files if possible).

> produces a LOT of "Talkers"

I have notices that in some of my lines as well . . . mostly the Aussie
lines I imported to the US in 1998/1999.

I also had a few jills that would consistently have a "milk heat" and her
offspring did as well.  I was told by a vet that this was genetic and
considered a "bonus" (which I didn't!) for the larger farms because they
could then breed them again for another litter ASAP. Anybody else notice
this in specific lines?

> I had two kits, born 6 months apart
> .. who both died at 8-9 months of age
> from Hypertrophic Cardiomyapathy.

For those that don't know - can you explain what this is (symptoms, genetic
links, etc.) and what you found out about it?

> the hobs line had not had any
> problems before...

May be recessive . . . and hit the right two jills . . .

> I decided I would not risk passing on any
> possible latent defective gene

Good choice. <g>

> a strong color like cinnamon,
> chocolate or blacks

IMO, I do not consider cinnamon to be a real solid colour - mainly because
it is partial albino (which I consider to be a sort of a not so good
thing).  My opinion might change on this, though, as I am always learning.

Speaking of colours . . . I seriously think we need to establish what they
are - particularly "silver mitt" and "black".  I consider "silver mitts" to
be sable, cinnamon, chocolate, etc. with mitts and roaning/silvering.  I do
so because the "silvers" tend to turn white (into DEWs), there for I
consider them "marked whites".  Blacks IMO are dark marked whites - or
possibly a "black silver mitt".  Some consider "blacks" sables with black
guard hair.  I feel this is VERY important for determining colour linked
genetic problems.

First off - I may be way off here - if I am PLEASE let us all know.  And
proof is good, too! <g>

> Isn't deafness a resessive gene and
> therefor you might know when you breed
> to another carrying the gene?

From my understanding, it depends on what sort of deafness it is.  If it is
colour associated (usually is with blazes, DEWs, etc) then it is colour
linked (WS).  In this case, I belive WS is a dominent (?) gene resulting in
a posibility of full hearing, partial hearing, or non-hearing.  So you
might not know you are breeding two ferrets that are full hearing, but
carrying the gene for deafness.  The result *could* be deaf kits.

> then why not breed to a hearing
> ferret anyway?

Because you don't know for sure if the hearing ferret is carrying that
deafness.  You certinaly can try to limit it.

> Maybe it is just me, but I don't
> think that deafness is such a bad
> problem, as compared to others. I
> own two deaf ferrets and they are
> both sweet.

Once it is identified and dealt with, it is not generally a problem for the
ferret - or owner.  However, some ferrets are never "found out" and
continually have "adjustment" or "aggression" probelms.  Some of them are
put to sleep because of it.

Deafness is most dangerous for the kits of deaf jills.  Since crying is the
way kit comunicate to their mums that they are away from her, hungry, etc,
she may not get to a lost kit on time or even engage in mothering
instincts.

Rule of thimb for me - don't breed a deaf animal - no matter what species.

Each breeder is entitled to consider what is and what is not worth breeding
for.  I do not find deafness in itself to be a problem.  Having bred silvers
for a number of years and found that whenever a silver had a white marking
that they are sometimes deaf or partially so, I have learned to appreciate
ferrets for what they are as individuals.
there has always been and always will be a demand for beautiful animals.
Just because I also happen to like the beauty of a panda,  DEW's and other
marked ferrets, I will continue to work with those colors.  Thankfully this
is still a country where each of us can set our own goals and standards.
There are also those who will try to control, rule and otherwise dominate
those who they see as a threat to themselves.  The thing is I believe most
of these people are sincere.  So although I disagree with them, their
attitudes, I do think they should be allowed to do their own thing.  I only
wish they would allow others, like myself, that same courtesy.
Judith Moon, owner Moonsong Ferretry, a totally different kind of ferretry.
http://moonsongferrets.virtualave.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Malone" <FURTulsa@...>
To: <Ferret-Genetics@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Ferret-Genetics] Digest Number 3


> Maybe none of my business, but my personal standpoint is....
> As I breeder, I am dedicated to improving bloodlines and creating the best
> possible kits... which includes health, personality, temperament.
> Personally, I would not breed a ferret who has a defect and/or has proven
to
> produce kits with a defect.
> No matter how careful you are, defects can happen and dealt with but I do
not
> agree with continuing known defects.
> I was sent a DEW kit a while back from a breeder, as she grew it became
clear
> she was deaf. I spayed her without ever breeding her because I felt that
> willingly passing on a genetic defect would go against what I am trying to
> accomplish as a breeder.
> Susan
>
> JudithMoon wrote:
>
> > As a breeder I ALWAYS make sure the prospective buyers realizes there is
a
> > possibility and/or probability that ferrets with white on their head can
be
> > deaf.  Many blazes are not, but I still try to make them understand the
issues
> > involved.  However, Many people do not seem to listen.  They say "yes,
yes we
> > understand" and then ignore what they are told.
> >
> > I do know that Zima's litter had two pandas which think were deaf.  Zima
> > herself is deaf.  But she is the calmest sweetest ferret I've ever
handled.
> > Never bites.  The two pandas both settled into good homes are are doing
very
> > well.  So some people do make good homes for those very beautifully
marked
> > pandas.
> >
> > Zima will be having another litter soon.  Probably with some pandas.
They
> > will be carefully placed again with responsible people in loving homes.
So
> > with care this beautiful animals can be placed.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Free Worldwide Calling with Firetalk!
> Click Here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5481/6/_/_/_/961558836/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

have a question here. Isn't deafness a resessive gene and therefor you might
know when you breed to another carrying the gene?

And if this is true, then why not breed to a hearing ferret anyway?

Maybe it is just me, but I don't think that deafness is such a bad problem,
as compared to others. I own two deaf ferrets and they are both sweet.

Maggie

Maybe none of my business, but my personal standpoint is....
As I breeder, I am dedicated to improving bloodlines and creating the best
possible kits... which includes health, personality, temperament.
Personally, I would not breed a ferret who has a defect and/or has proven to
produce kits with a defect.
No matter how careful you are, defects can happen and dealt with but I do not
agree with continuing known defects.
I was sent a DEW kit a while back from a breeder, as she grew it became clear
she was deaf. I spayed her without ever breeding her because I felt that
willingly passing on a genetic defect would go against what I am trying to
accomplish as a breeder.
Susan

JudithMoon wrote:

> As a breeder I ALWAYS make sure the prospective buyers realizes there is a
> possibility and/or probability that ferrets with white on their head can be
> deaf.  Many blazes are not, but I still try to make them understand the issues
> involved.  However, Many people do not seem to listen.  They say "yes, yes we
> understand" and then ignore what they are told.
>
> I do know that Zima's litter had two pandas which think were deaf.  Zima
> herself is deaf.  But she is the calmest sweetest ferret I've ever handled.
> Never bites.  The two pandas both settled into good homes are are doing very
> well.  So some people do make good homes for those very beautifully marked
> pandas.
>
> Zima will be having another litter soon.  Probably with some pandas.  They
> will be carefully placed again with responsible people in loving homes.  So
> with care this beautiful animals can be placed.
>

You are welcome to your opinions.  We will take it under advisement that
you are unhappy with us.  When the negatives outweigh the positives.  Or
even come close to a significant proportion of our feedback we will
certainly do something about it.

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, Maggie wrote:

> on 6/20/00 10:20 PM, bill and diane killian - zen and the art of ferrets at
> killian@... wrote:
>
>
> > The interesting thing about genetics and the study of it.  You can find
> > out what problems in ferrets are hereditary and STOP BREEDING FOR DEFECTS!
> >
> > It is a darned shame you consider the 'pretty' patterns more important
> > than a healthy ferret.
> >
> > We try to breed flaws out of our ferrets.  Despite the higher price we
> > could sell the neato patterns for.
> >
>
> Well I will open my big mouth  up.
>
> Bill, Diane, I wished you would be more constructive in your statements on
> ALL the ferrets lists and quit being sarcastic and personal. I am very tired
> of it and I just signed up to this list last night. It is a shame to see it
> here too.
>
> Everyone else, I am very sorry for this post but feel it is needed. And I
> wanted to do it public since the comment was public.
>
> I do apologize and will look forward to others posting about genetics.
>
> Maggie
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.
> Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/5666/6/_/_/_/961558014/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

--
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
http://www.zenferret.com/
mailto:killian@...

on 6/20/00 10:20 PM, bill and diane killian - zen and the art of ferrets at
killian@... wrote:


> The interesting thing about genetics and the study of it.  You can find
> out what problems in ferrets are hereditary and STOP BREEDING FOR DEFECTS!
>
> It is a darned shame you consider the 'pretty' patterns more important
> than a healthy ferret.
>
> We try to breed flaws out of our ferrets.  Despite the higher price we
> could sell the neato patterns for.
>

Well I will open my big mouth  up.

Bill, Diane, I wished you would be more constructive in your statements on
ALL the ferrets lists and quit being sarcastic and personal. I am very tired
of it and I just signed up to this list last night. It is a shame to see it
here too.

Everyone else, I am very sorry for this post but feel it is needed. And I
wanted to do it public since the comment was public.

I do apologize and will look forward to others posting about genetics.

Maggie

On Tue, 20 Jun 2000, JudithMoon wrote:

> As a breeder I ALWAYS make sure the prospective buyers realizes there is a
> possibility and/or probability that ferrets with white on their head can be
> deaf.  Many blazes are not, but I still try to make them understand the
> issues involved.  However, Many people do not seem to listen.  They say
> "yes, yes we understand" and then ignore what they are told.




The interesting thing about genetics and the study of it.  You can find
out what problems in ferrets are hereditary and STOP BREEDING FOR DEFECTS!

It is a darned shame you consider the 'pretty' patterns more important
than a healthy ferret.

We try to breed flaws out of our ferrets.  Despite the higher price we
could sell the neato patterns for.


--
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
http://www.zenferret.com/
mailto:killian@...

Well, obviously I think you already know the answer. These poor creatures are
the products of irresponsible breeding, in-breeding and who knows what other
problems.
I have not seen any *statistics* lately, but I "Personally" think your vets 6%
chance of defects is pretty low.
I don't have much to add for your situation other than the fact that reading
your post made me ick to my stomach, I truly hope you can get them stopped.
Susan

Barbara Hann wrote:

> Hi Everybody!
> I have a question.  To bring everyone up to date, I work with a local rescue.
> Last Monday, we rescued 11 weaned kits, and 2 nursing jills with 10 kits
> between them.  The owner of the ferrets we rescued is a M.D.  We saw such
> awful things.  For one, a panda jill (under 1 yr. old) with no ribs that we
> could feel.  She is one we weren't allowed to take.  When we asked about this
> little girl, we were told "she has a birth defect".  Two of the 5-6 week olds
> (also pandas) died within 24 hours.  Their ribcages also were deformed, they
> seemed too small, almost pinched.  We're waiting for necropsies.  These two
> little ones, we named Love and Cupid, were gasping for breath.  We did all we
> could, and still we had to say goodbye.
>
> I grew up around animals.  I've never come across anything like this. We're
> looking for information-has anyone ever heard of this? The owner of these
> animals has been breeding ferrets for many years.  The animals are allowed to
> co-mingle.  Hobs are kept together, hobs (several) in a cage with many jills.
> We know there is inbreeding.  I was told by my vet that with inbreeding, there
> is a 6% chance of defects.  If there was many generations of inbreeding, it
> would seem likely that the percentage of
> defects would increase exponentially.
> I personally have no problem with people breeding any type of animal as long
> as they are responsible.  The owners of these kits are a far cry from
> responsible.

As a breeder I ALWAYS make sure the prospective buyers realizes there is a
possibility and/or probability that ferrets with white on their head can be
deaf.  Many blazes are not, but I still try to make them understand the
issues involved.  However, Many people do not seem to listen.  They say
"yes, yes we understand" and then ignore what they are told.

I do know that Zima's litter had two pandas which think were deaf.  Zima
herself is deaf.  But she is the calmest sweetest ferret I've ever handled.
Never bites.  The two pandas both settled into good homes are are doing very
well.  So some people do make good homes for those very beautifully marked
pandas.

Zima will be having another litter soon.  Probably with some pandas.  They
will be carefully placed again with responsible people in loving homes.  So
with care this beautiful animals can be placed.
Judith Moon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Malone" <FURTulsa@...>
To: <Ferret-Genetics@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ferret-Genetics] Digest Number 3


> Charleen Schuster wrote:
> "We continue rescuing deaf ferrets from the Petstores.  Blazes, Panda's,
DEW'S.
> Why does Marshall Farm continue sending these ferrets to the Petstores,
without
> telling them that these ferrets may be deaf.  People buy them because of
the
> colors and then later return them when they bite harder then other
ferrets."
>
> I also see deaf ferrets frequently, either coming into rescue or their
owners
> looking for help with biting issues. In answer to the question of why they
> continue to be sold. Well, there are several points to consider.
> 1. Mills do not track bloodlines, and usually do not even know who the
father
> is.
> 2. Mills do not test or screen kits before sending them.
> 3. Why would they warn about deaf issues? From THEIR way of thinking...
that
> might decrease sales.
> 4. They rarely lose any money on deaf ones... since if you were to call
> Marshalls and complain you were sold a deaf ferret.. they tell you that
they
> will cheerfully replace your ferret... and your ferret is send back to be
> destroyed. Now how many people are really going to do that???
>
>
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>

Hi Everybody!
I have a question.  To bring everyone up to date, I work with a local
rescue.  Last Monday, we rescued 11 weaned kits, and 2 nursing jills with 10
kits between them.  The owner of the ferrets we rescued is a M.D.  We saw
such awful things.  For one, a panda jill (under 1 yr. old) with no ribs
that we could feel.  She is one we weren't allowed to take.  When we asked
about this little girl, we were told "she has a birth defect".  Two of the
5-6 week olds (also pandas) died within 24 hours.  Their ribcages also were
deformed, they seemed too small, almost pinched.  We're waiting for
necropsies.  These two little ones, we named Love and Cupid, were gasping
for breath.  We did all we could, and still we had to say goodbye.

I grew up around animals.  I've never come across anything like this. We're
looking for information-has anyone ever heard of this?

The owner of these animals has been breeding ferrets for many years.  The
animals are allowed to co-mingle.  Hobs are kept together, hobs (several) in
a cage with many jills.  We know there is inbreeding.  I was told by my vet
that with inbreeding, there is a 6% chance of defects.  If there was many
generations of inbreeding, it would seem likely that the percentage of
defects would increase exponentially.

I personally have no problem with people breeding any type of animal as long
as they are responsible.  The owners of these kits are a far cry from
responsible.

In closing, I would like to say that we hope to go back and rescue the rest,
but as of this date, we don't know. There is more to this, but we need the
"Ace" up our sleeves.

Barbara Hann
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Charleen Schuster wrote:
"We continue rescuing deaf ferrets from the Petstores.  Blazes, Panda's, DEW'S.
Why does Marshall Farm continue sending these ferrets to the Petstores, without
telling them that these ferrets may be deaf.  People buy them because of the
colors and then later return them when they bite harder then other ferrets."

I also see deaf ferrets frequently, either coming into rescue or their owners
looking for help with biting issues. In answer to the question of why they
continue to be sold. Well, there are several points to consider.
1. Mills do not track bloodlines, and usually do not even know who the father
is.
2. Mills do not test or screen kits before sending them.
3. Why would they warn about deaf issues? From THEIR way of thinking... that
might decrease sales.
4. They rarely lose any money on deaf ones... since if you were to call
Marshalls and complain you were sold a deaf ferret.. they tell you that they
will cheerfully replace your ferret... and your ferret is send back to be
destroyed. Now how many people are really going to do that???

Hi Everyone,

We continue rescueing deaf ferrets from the Petstores.  Blazes, Panda's,
DEW'S.  Why does Marshall Farm continue sending these ferrets to the
Petstores, without telling them that these ferrets may be deaf.  People buy
them because of the colors and then later return them when they bite harder
then other ferrets.

So far I have 4 ferrets that are deaf in my business here, of course they
are all fixed!

2 are from Breeders here in Washington(Panda and Black Mit)
2 are from Marshall Farm( 2 blazes) that we rescued out of the Petco a few
months ago.  One was a kit and the other one was over a year old that had
been returned to the store, because of biting!

To tell you the truth so far I have had no problems with these four ferrets.
The only thing I have found different is they sleep more!

Charleen Schuster
Ferretlove@...

> OH BOY OH BOY!! Finally, time to have some fun! *hehehehe*

Now, for those who do not know me. Bear in mind these facts. I have only been
*studying* breeding at all for about 3 years, I have been breeding for 2, and
started REALLY getting into the genetics side within the past 2 years. Anything
I say may come across opinionated but is based soley on my own learning and
experiences.
If you disagree or have an opposite viewpoint, don't be afraid to speak up... I
don't mind a discussion or debate, we may end up learning from each other. Just
please, no flames. LOL


> "Colours, personality traits, genetic birth defects, unknown caused birth
> defects, etc."

1. I find it fascinating how *latent* genes can be such a factor in breeding.
This season I bred a butterscotch male to a light cinnamon female.. what did I
get?? Silver Mitts! Go figure!
2. Birth defects.. hmmm... I am still learning on this one. I had my first
defects this year and have been a little freaked trying to determine
causes..... I had one litter in which 2 of 4 kits have Neural Tube Defects...
and then another where the jill *aborted* 4 days before due date... the litter
was a mess... a couple of NTD's, a couple not formed at all, a couple normal
but extremely underdeveloped.
Now these were my first two due so I was in a panic. Thankfully since then, I
have had another 4 litters, all perfectly normal and healthy. So what
happened?? Damned if I know. I have done a lot of research.. made some slight
improvements in my food mix, added Folic Acid.. but none of that was done in
time to have made a difference between the first 2 and last 4 litters.

> "Anybody notice certain behaviours in lines?"

OH MY YES! I have a few traits I find totally charming. I have several ferrets
from one bloodline (no they don't breed to each other)... but anyway, this line
has some Angora WAAAY back in there somewhere... and about 1 in 4 of the kits
have longer than normal hair and the fuzziest paws.... look like little Wookie
Feet!
That same bloodline produces a LOT of "Talkers"... especially the males.. they
constantly chitter and make sounds, even just to themselves. And they are
extremely cuddly and sweet natured.
Also, I have a male whose kits are always "yappers".. they bark and yap a
lot... it sounds like a litter of toy poodles!

> "Illnesses in lines?"

The only thing I have encountered so far (knock on wood) *might* have been a
fluke but I decided not to risk it. I had two kits, born 6 months apart.. who
both died at 8-9 months of age from Hypertrophic Cardiomyapathy. I went nuts
looking for a link, when I realized the same Hob had fathered them both.
Coincidence? Maybe, the hobs line had not had any problems before... but these
were from my first 2 litters and I decided I would not risk passing on any
possible latent defective gene, so that hob was retired.

> "Dark (Black) Eyed Whites . . . What is your opinion of them? IMO, I believe
> they are stunning to look at, but a bundle of possible problems genetically.
> I believe that you should ALWAYS breed DEWs to safe solid coloured ferrets to
> help avoid some of the problems associted with DEWs.   But how safe is
> "safe"?  Are we talking sable with a solid pedigree of sables?  Or is one
> that has a DEW grandparent or two "safe"?"

Well, I only got the guts to attempt DEW/Marked White breedings a year ago, and
the high possibility of genetic defects scared the hell out of me, so I have
decided to play on the safe side of life... I breed to ones who are a
*baseline* and have baselines in their pedigree, however not just sables... a
strong color like cinnamon, chocolate or blacks... dunno if I would feel as
comfortable with a *diluted* mate such as a champagne.
I acquired Selene, who is Swedish, Dark Eyed White (Marked)... she is solid
white with a silver tail. I bred her last year to a Cinnamon standard. The
resulting litter had 1 DEW, 3 Marked Whites, 3 Cinnamon and 1 Sable. A nice mix
and NO health problems or deafness.
Selene is pretty but has the very lean, long, weasel build with a long skinny
nose... I prefer stockier. One of her daughters (Danae) turned into a lovely
Marked White, Silver Streak down her back with Ruby eyes and she also got her
dad's bodystyle, a wide chuck, very broad and "bulldog" looking. So after she
raises her current litter, I am retiring Selene and using Danae to carry on the
White line.
On a side note: There is a *backyard breeder* an hour or so from me who will
breed DEW to DEW, i have talked until I am blue and spent a fortune on postage
sending her info, does no good... she wants a lot of light ones because "they
sell good"... in the past year I have personally seen 6 DEWS which had been
acquired from her, and they were ALL deaf. *SIGH*

Anybody know of ferrets with Chediak-Higashi syndrome?

This syndrome is an autosomal (non-sex linked) recessive disorder that
affects the white blood cells.  It is associated with albinism,
hepatosplenamegaly (enlargement of spleen and liver), lymphadenopathy
(lymph node enlargement), and recurrent skin infections.  As with WS, it
can occur in any mammal.

Ta

Amy Flemming

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Well . . . as some of you may know, my PC was stolen a few weeks ago.  Sigh
. . . along with my back-ups.  So if any of you have written to me and I
did not respond, that is likely why.  (Feel free to respond again - please!
- and I will reply!).

That out of the way, lets get this list rolling!  Anybody have any topics
they wish to talk about?  Colours, personality traits, genetic birth
defects, unknown caused birth defects, etc.  Anybody notice certain
behaviours in lines?  Illnesses in lines?

I'll start one . . . and we'll keep it simple to get people motivated to
input.

Dark (Black) Eyed Whites . . . What is your opinion of them?

IMO, I believe they are stunning to look at, but a bundle of possible
problems genetically.  I believe that you should ALWAYS breed DEWs to safe
solid coloured ferrets to help avoid some of the problems associted with
DEWs.   But how safe is "safe"?  Are we talking sable with a solid pedigree
of sables?  Or is one that has a DEW grandparent or two "safe"?

Amy Flemming

    |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
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    |  If  this  communication  is  not intended for you and you are not an|
    |  authorised  recipient  of  this email you are prohibited by law from|
    |  dealing  with  or relying on the email or any file attachments. This|
    |  prohibition  includes  reading,  printing, copying, re-transmitting,|
    |  disseminating,  storing  or  in  any  other way dealing or acting in|
    |  reliance  on  the  information.  If  you have received this email in|
    |  error, we request you contact us immediately by returning this email|
    |  to postmaster@... and destroy the original.              |
    |----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Ann, I don't think this has a whole lot to do with genetics, but some of the
boys in his line do seem to have one thing on their minds, and for a very long
time!

From my experience and this probably holds true for most breeders, there are
some hobs that come in for a month or two then go out - WOO HOO!  There are some
boys that haven't a clue and come in when none of the girls are in - usually
these guys were born late in the year Nov-Dec.  It usually takes them a season
to get on cycle - but sometimes they never do!  Then there are those horny boys
who tongue the cage bars, widdle on EVERYTHING (be sure to move those new
sneakers or they won't be new anymore!), get skinny butt sooooo bad their hips
can fit through your thumb and index finger, jump up on your lap and try to take
YOU off for some amore'.  Actually, those are the boys you want for a v-hob!

I don't know what to tell you, I have had a couple of those guys in the past. 
Usually they never saw the show ring, but they threw some gorgeous babies!  I
think you need to get him a girl, but then again, he is dragging your neuts
around as it is.........

Vickie
Just a Business of Ferrets
www.mindspring.com/~jbferret

I am really looking forward to some interesting discussions on
genetics.  I haven't been able to breed yet, due to the arcane
breeding cycle of ferrets <grin>, but am trying to learn as much as I
possibly can before I do start.

I know this is slightly off-topic, and probably better on the
breeders' forum, but let me start you all off with one question:
Does a male EVER go out of season?  LOL

My hob seems to have been in season since January.  I'm starting to
worry about him.  He's happy and healthy, and has only lost a little
weight, but the sliming and all the other stuff that goes along with
being in season has not slowed down a bit.  Plus I'd like to see him
put some weight back on soon.


thanks for any info!

Ann
ferrets@...

<g>  Hey Susan!

> Well, I am assuming we will be discussing everything from the genetic
> pattern in certain colors and patterns... as well as temperament,
> personality, intelligence et al...

That was the plan! <g>

> As a breeder (third season now), I am fascinated by these subjects and
> always wanting to learn more. This season, I have also had my first
> experiences with genetic defects.. so more than ever, I am eager to soak
> up information.

I think most of us are really interesed in learning more about the genetic
side as well.  It seems there is so little knowledge about ferret genetics -
at least available to the public.  Maybe we could all band together and
share our thoughts and knowledge . . .

> I would like to thank Amy for creating this list. I guess she got sick
> of me emailing her asking genetic questions... LOL.. seriously, I think
> this is a great idea and a wonderful opportunity to learn from each
> other.

Thanks!  I think it will work out well if eveybody participates!

> I look forward to it.

Me too!

Amy Flemming


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Well, I am assuming we will be discussing everything from the genetic
pattern in certain colors and patterns... as well as temperament,
personality, intelligence et al...
As a breeder (third season now), I am fascinated by these subjects and
always wanting to learn more. This season, I have also had my first
experiences with genetic defects.. so more than ever, I am eager to soak
up information.
I would like to thank Amy for creating this list. I guess she got sick
of me emailing her asking genetic questions... LOL.. seriously, I think
this is a great idea and a wonderful opportunity to learn from each
other.
I look forward to it.
Susan