Okay that makes sense - but how is that at all related to Grouply asking for
IDs and passwords? Wouldn't you still have privacy of your ID and Password with
Open ID?

Wendy




-----Original Message-----
From: Yamanoor Srihari <yamanoor@...>
To: GrouplyImprovements@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 2:26 pm
Subject: [GI] Re: [GrouplyImprovements] ISSUE: Y! ID and Passwords-Addendum

























Hello Wendy,



Sorry to have come across as speaking Greek. Open ID is a new concept

where people want to get rid of multiple user IDs and passwords and

have one identity for themselves across the internet. This means, they

want something like a driver's license for the internet. This ID would

then authenticate them wherever they have signed up across the

internet. This means they dont have to store half a dozen IDs and

passwords all across the place.



Does this sound better or is still coming across as gibber?



Sincerely,



Srihari
















________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Wendy,

Sorry to have come across as speaking Greek. Open ID is a new concept
where people want to get rid of multiple user IDs and passwords and
have one identity for themselves across the internet. This means, they
want something like a driver's license for the internet. This ID would
then authenticate them wherever they have signed up across the
internet. This means they dont have to store half a dozen IDs and
passwords all across the place.

Does this sound better or is still coming across as gibber?

Sincerely,

Srihari

On Feb 9, 2008 1:44 PM,  <caribousmom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Wow, that was like Greek to me. Even under the "What is Open ID" it was a
> bunch of computereeze ... the average person (including myself) will not
> have any idea what this means...
>
>  Wendy
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Yamanoor Srihari <yamanoor@...>
>  To: GrouplyImprovements@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:37 pm
>  Subject: Re: [GrouplyImprovements] ISSUE: Y! ID and Passwords-Addendum
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Simmie,
>
>  I know this ID/Password thing has become a melting pot, but there are
>  two additional things to be considered: People already give their
>  passwords freely to services like Meebo, Trillian etc.
>
>  Plus, there is a big push across the internet towards Open ID.
>  http://www.openid.net . It is rumored that Yahoo! is also going to be
>  supporting Open ID soon.
>
>  In wake of such things, I am wondering, beyond our mother's advice
>  against talking to strangers, if giving out IDs and Passwords is
>  really such a terrible issue.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Srihari
>
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
>



--
New! Sign Up for my Photography Newsletter at http://yamanoor.net/news/su.html

http://www.yamanoor.com/ = Home

http://www.yamanoor.net/ = Dreams!

http://chaaraka.blogspot.com/ = Medical Devices

--- In GrouplyImprovements@yahoogroups.com, "Wendy" <caribousmom@...>
wrote:
>
> As a list owner, I would like Grouply to assume I don't want Grouply
> users in my group unless I opt-in.
>


I agree.  This vies with the YahooGroups ID/password requirement for
the top spot in problems that must be fixed.  No list should be
accessed by Grouply unless the list owner has initially opted in.  If
a Grouply member tries to link to a list that has not opted in, that
request should be denied on the basis that the list owner has not
previously approved the list for inclusion in Grouply's archive.  That
could, in fact, be the message that goes out when a Grouply member
tries to do so:  "This list has not been pre-approved for access by
Grouply by the list owner and is not available," or some such wording
that would make it clear to the member that it is the list owner who
gets to make that decision before anyone gets to apply.

It also takes the onus off the list owner to be aware of Grouply in
the first place in order to opt out or lose the right to do so, and it
puts it on the member, if they want to use Grouply, to check first
with the list owner.

The default should be not to access or attempt to access a list unless
and until you're told that you can do so.

For those of you that filter your email -- we have changed the
subject tagline for this group to [GI] so we're able to see more of
the subject!

Thanks,
Simmie

Hope I'm doing this right!

> I'm bringing a couple of issues over here to be addressed.
>
> This one is the issue of requiring Yahoo! IDs and passwords in order
> to use Grouply.
>
> Mark, this is probably one of the first things we're taught when we
> get on the internet -- don't give your username or password to
> anyone.
>
> Is it possible (and also probable) that your site can be changed so
> that the onus is on the user to change whatever needs to be changed
> on the Yahoogroups they want to include on Grouply?  Perhaps with
> instructions to "get them there" so they're not flailing?
>
> I think if you are able to accomplish this, you'll be doing some good
> work.
>

I agree that this is one of the top three problems that have been
mentioned repeatedly vis a vis Grouply, and the primary one, at that.

Without this fix, I don't think you'll be able to recover from the bad
reaction you've gotten thusfar.  With it, you just might be able to
pull it off.

Tricia Jumonville

A couple of days ago I was totally against Grouply. It looks to me now that
they are all trying to resolve the owner's concern's as quickly as they can
which makes me feel a little better towards the whole situation.  BUT.... I
would like to opt-out of my groups being visible to any Grouply member at
this time. Down the road if I feel it is all under control and more secure
then I might change my mind. How at this time can I opt-out without joining
Grouply?

I do thank you at Grouply for listening and taking action. It is making a
difference.

Sincerely
Lynnetta

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi there,

Yes, please feel free to let others know about this group.  I've let
the Listowners/Moderators of three other ListOwner/Moderator forums
know about the group, but it is open to anyone to join, as long as
they're polite and don't spam us!

Simmie

--- In GrouplyImprovements@yahoogroups.com, "Yamanoor Srihari"
<yamanoor@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Simmie, Texas Critter and other mods,
>
> I am wondering if you can let us talk about this group elsewhere for
> people who would like to join and participate. Is this request to be
> done on a case by case basis?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Srihari

Hello Simmie, Texas Critter and other mods,

I am wondering if you can let us talk about this group elsewhere for
people who would like to join and participate. Is this request to be
done on a case by case basis?

Sincerely,

Srihari

--
New! Sign Up for my Photography Newsletter at http://yamanoor.net/news/su.html

http://www.yamanoor.com/ = Home

http://www.yamanoor.net/ = Dreams!

http://chaaraka.blogspot.com/ = Medical Devices

P.S.  www.grouply.com's "user" cookie has expiration date 14 days after login,
but a technically versed troll can prolong the cookie's expiration time.

Simmie,

>In other words: Can there be an external way (other than signing up
>for Grouply) for List Owners/Moderators to opt out some of their
>groups?

The problem is authentication. How does Grouply know who is an owner of the
group other than by signing in with that owner's credentials?

They can't trust just an email address -- those can be spoofed.

Having Grouply send an email to -owner is a reasonable suggestion, with the
caveat that it would allow any moderator to make the option. That might not be
acceptable to all group owners.

-- Shal

When replying to a Yahoo Group message via the Grouply web site, the
email address of the original poster is not munged or truncated, even
if the Yahoo Group member list is private.  Note that no message need
actually be sent for the email address to be revealed.  This is
unacceptable.

I've been following this along (mostly quietly) and while Grouply isn't
something I envision myself using, I must say that the responses and actions
of Mark and Rich lately certainly give me a better impression of Grouply
than I've had in the past.  I appreciate that they are making changes that
so many group owners have requested.  Thank you to both of them, as well as
to the owners of this group and EL-M.

Colette

Rich Reimer (Co-founder of Grouply) posted to EL-M:

> every time you login, we check Yahoo to see if
> there are any changes to your group list.

Grouply's login form has a checkbox "remember me". A Grouply user who is
a member of my group (restricted, with archives for members only)
can check that checkbox (or never turn the computer off)
and never log out of Grouply.
A scenario: I unsub or ban such user (not because of using Grouply).
The banned user can continue to read next messages from my group on Grouply
infinitely (because Grouply uses another member's
password or letters to @grouply.com). Right?

Simmie,

It can't be done, without help from Yahoo.

The reason is that Grouply needs, at minimum, access to the member's
"My Groups" page in order to verify their membership in Yahoo Groups.
There is at present no other way to get that information without
signing in as that member. Without verification of membership
Grouply's whole security system falls down.

What _could_ be done, with Yahoo's cooperation, is that Yahoo could
develop an API Key mechanism for Groups, similar to that used by
Flickr (another Yahoo company). This is a means by which a member may
grant (and rescind) permission for a third-party to access, directly
from Yahoo's servers, information about the member which is normally
private.
<http://www.flickr.com/help/website/#181>

This is really the right solution for this issue, as it avoids the
need for anyone to give out passwords, and Yahoo can give the member
the ability to grant (or deny) a list of specific privileges to the
third party (much as an owner can select privileges for a moderator).

It would also be great as a way to tie in other services. Such as
PBwiki. I'd love to have a way to tie a Wiki to my group so that only
group members can see/edit the wiki. With an API key PBwiki could
verify membership in my group before allowing access to my wiki.

-- Shal


-- Shal

--- In GrouplyImprovements@yahoogroups.com, Simmie <simmiejoyz@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible (and also probable) that your site can be changed so
> that the onus is on the user to change whatever needs to be changed
> on the Yahoogroups they want to include on Grouply?  Perhaps with
> instructions to "get them there" so they're not flailing?

As a list owner, I would like Grouply to assume I don't want Grouply
users in my group unless I opt-in.

Grouply should have a way for List owners to determine if Grouply
users are allowed in their groups.

Wendy

Another big one.

Right now, the only way I can see who is actually a user of grouply in
one of my groups is to become a member of Grouply.

As a list owner, we should be able to see immediately if there is a
Grouply user in one of our groups - they should not be able to hide
that from list owners.

Wendy

Hello Simmie,

I know this ID/Password thing has become a melting pot, but there are
two additional things to be considered: People already give their
passwords freely to services like Meebo, Trillian etc.

Plus, there is a big push across the internet towards Open ID.
http://www.openid.net . It is rumored that Yahoo! is also going to be
supporting Open ID soon.

In wake of such things, I am wondering, beyond our mother's advice
against talking to strangers, if giving out IDs and Passwords is
really such a terrible issue.

Sincerely,

Srihari

On Feb 9, 2008 12:27 PM, Simmie <simmiejoyz@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm bringing a couple of issues over here to be addressed.
>
>  This one is the issue of requiring Yahoo! IDs and passwords in order
>  to use Grouply.
>
>  Mark, this is probably one of the first things we're taught when we
>  get on the internet -- don't give your username or password to
>  anyone.
>
>  Is it possible (and also probable) that your site can be changed so
>  that the onus is on the user to change whatever needs to be changed
>  on the Yahoogroups they want to include on Grouply? Perhaps with
>  instructions to "get them there" so they're not flailing?
>

This is a big one for me...

Right now it is my understanding that groups which have been made
private (invitation only ) and preference on Yahoo is to not show this
group publicly...are showing up on Public Profiles of members at Grouply.

Private, no show groups on Yahoo should NEVER be made public on Grouply.

Wendy

Opting out of Grouply.

Is it possible for Grouply to perhaps set up an email address for
folks to send opt-OUT requests to -- that have a URL sent back to
them (the group owner in question) to verify that they are the
owners....after it's checked out.

Or however that's done!

In other words: Can there be an external way (other than signing up
for Grouply) for List Owners/Moderators to opt out some of their
groups?

Thanks,
Simmie

Grouply should not be able to override the decision of a Yahoo group
owner to ban access to a members-only message archive (on Yahoo).
Members that were banned yesterday on Yahoo are still being shown as
group members on Grouply now.  This is unacceptable.

This one is an issue for some groups -- not all, but some.

Groups that have their archives closed to members but open to
Moderators only need to have that same set of circumstances applied
to Grouply.

IOW: If the archives are Moderators only on Yahoogroups, then the
archives for that group should not be available on Grouply.

This is a biggie.

Simmie

I'm bringing a couple of issues over here to be addressed.

This one is the issue of requiring Yahoo! IDs and passwords in order
to use Grouply.

Mark, this is probably one of the first things we're taught when we
get on the internet -- don't give your username or password to
anyone.

Is it possible (and also probable) that your site can be changed so
that the onus is on the user to change whatever needs to be changed
on the Yahoogroups they want to include on Grouply?  Perhaps with
instructions to "get them there" so they're not flailing?

I think if you are able to accomplish this, you'll be doing some good
work.

Thanks,
Simmie

This is the Welcome Letter that will go to anyone joining this group.

Please read it, and note in particular the posting requirements of
ISSUE: and COMMENTS:

_____________________________

Welcome to the GrouplyImprovements group at Yahoo! Groups.

This group's purpose is to discuss issues and provide comments to
Grouply management on what our thoughts are on their service.

Standard email reply guidelines apply: remove extraneous text that is
not necessary, keep your sig lines as short as possible, and be nice!

With that in mind, please preface any post you make with one of the
following listed below. Please provide your initial input once in
seven days, so as to not repeat issues that are being worked on:

ISSUE:
COMMENTS:

Grouply management, when appropriate with their replies, are asked to
change one of the above to: RESOLVED.

Thank you!
GrouplyImprovements Moderators
_____________________________

Hello Everyone,

Thanks to "Simmie" for setting up the group. I am glad such a group
has been set up where we can discuss Grouply features and suggest
improvements for Grouply features.

Hope to interact with everyone here.

Sincerely,

Srihari