----- Original Message -----

From: benwood

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 5:22 PM

Subject: [Hermes-Server] Herme servers stop listening to port 25/110 intermittently

I have this problem which has surfaced in the last couple of weeks. 
I run Hermes on my local computer (always on, always connected), and
use it as my personal e-mail server.  I run the latest server version
of Hermes.  I have run Hermes without a hitch (save one, which I'll
describe in the next post) for several months, until this problem
cropped up within the last couple of weeks (perhaps when I installed
Norton AntiVirus 2002).

Several times recently, Outlook Express has notified me
that it cannot connect with my POP3 server (or sometimes it's the
SMTP server).  I pop up the Hermes console and it
doesn't show any errors or anything.  I hit STOP which kills the
services and then GO and it reports that all services where started. 
Then in Outlook Express, I retry to retrieve my mail, and it times
out saying there's connection on port 110.  Additionally, if I try to
send, it says no connection on port 25 and that fails, too.  At this
time, the Hermes log pane shows nothing at all.  I can then hit Stop,
and it reports that all three services stop.  I can press Go, and
repeat the above, and it's all the same.

Finally, after a reboot, it works again.

My setup is Win2k Professional, all the latest updates and patches;
also, ZoneAlarmPro, Norton Anti-Virus 2002, and AdsGone ad blocker. 
I have tried killing all three of these off during one of
these "episodes" with no different result although I'm less sure of
how "shut down" Norton AV is.

This problem seems to have coincided with when I installed Norton
Antivirus 2002 (it says it was installed 2/27).  I've been using the
e-mail scanning (incoming & outgoing) and will try running with that
off for a while to see if the problem goes away.  Perhaps someone
else has run with Norton AV and has had a similar problem?


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I would like the Hermes POP3 service to be able to download new e-
mail but continue to maintain it on the server.  I have done tests
with this setting in Outlook Express when retrieving e-mail on my
local server, and it has worked -- at least, the folder has showed
that the e-mail is still there a few seconds after retrieval.

However, when I'm on my home PC and want to check my work e-mail (the
HERMES service), I use the same setting in Outlook Express (leave
mail on server), but when I get to work, the e-mail is not there any
longer.

So... not sure if Hermes supports this feature intermittently (or
under certain conditions or internal settings) but it does not seem
to for me for the work/home and vice-versa cases.

--Ben

I have this problem which has surfaced in the last couple of weeks.
I run Hermes on my local computer (always on, always connected), and
use it as my personal e-mail server.  I run the latest server version
of Hermes.  I have run Hermes without a hitch (save one, which I'll
describe in the next post) for several months, until this problem
cropped up within the last couple of weeks (perhaps when I installed
Norton AntiVirus 2002).

Several times recently, Outlook Express has notified me
that it cannot connect with my POP3 server (or sometimes it's the
SMTP server).  I pop up the Hermes console and it
doesn't show any errors or anything.  I hit STOP which kills the
services and then GO and it reports that all services where started.
Then in Outlook Express, I retry to retrieve my mail, and it times
out saying there's connection on port 110.  Additionally, if I try to
send, it says no connection on port 25 and that fails, too.  At this
time, the Hermes log pane shows nothing at all.  I can then hit Stop,
and it reports that all three services stop.  I can press Go, and
repeat the above, and it's all the same.

Finally, after a reboot, it works again.

My setup is Win2k Professional, all the latest updates and patches;
also, ZoneAlarmPro, Norton Anti-Virus 2002, and AdsGone ad blocker.
I have tried killing all three of these off during one of
these "episodes" with no different result although I'm less sure of
how "shut down" Norton AV is.

This problem seems to have coincided with when I installed Norton
Antivirus 2002 (it says it was installed 2/27).  I've been using the
e-mail scanning (incoming & outgoing) and will try running with that
off for a while to see if the problem goes away.  Perhaps someone
else has run with Norton AV and has had a similar problem?

One feature I really need is for Hermes to be able
to handle more than one DNS server and try
the others if one fails.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

----- Original Message -----

From: -Cisco -

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 9:52 AM

Subject: [Hermes-Server] web InterFaces

Hey Guys I Use Hermes and Have since the Very First
version.. I think its Great... I was Browsing around
the INterNet Looking for Freeware Open Source
Pre-Coded Email server WebInterfaces and I that would
work Great with Hermes... 

Well I found One that Work Great its still Kinda Buggy
but its Called ecorrei Created by SourceForge and Can
be Downloaded at http://ecorrei.sourceforge.net/

This interface is Coded in PHP and Can Use pop3 or
Imap to acces the Email server... its still Very Basic
The interface Can't do very Much Yet But thats the
Best thing about OPEN-Source stuff ...

Also the Web-GUI could use RE-Desiging But Hey its
works lol well check it out if you'd like ..

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


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Hey Guys I Use Hermes and Have since the Very First
version.. I think its Great... I was Browsing around
the INterNet Looking for Freeware Open Source
Pre-Coded Email server WebInterfaces and I that would
work Great with Hermes...

Well I found One that Work Great its still Kinda Buggy
but its Called ecorrei Created by SourceForge and Can
be Downloaded at http://ecorrei.sourceforge.net/

This interface is Coded in PHP and Can Use pop3 or
Imap to acces the Email server... its still Very Basic
The interface Can't do very Much Yet But thats the
Best thing about OPEN-Source stuff ...

Also the Web-GUI could use RE-Desiging But Hey its
works lol well check it out if you'd like ..

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

I am currently using the english language version.

And i'm currently using the App version, but I would like to get the H icon
out of the tray, just for the sake of less clutter, it's picky, but i'd just
rather have it running as a service. Also i'd like it to start up when i'm
not logged into a particular profile, and the app version doesn't support
that.

Basicly, I have the App version running at startup through a less
complicated methor then using Task Scheduler, being as you can simply
shortcut Hermes in the Startup folder and have it come up and work just fine
without any fiddling in the task manager. I KNOW the solution is to use the
app version, I want a solution that lets me use the service version under 2k
Adv Server.

Regards,
Lorand

-----Original Message-----


    Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:27:29 +0100
    From: "Patrik Lundin" <patrik@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Hermes under Advanced Server

> It DOES show up in the service manager, and it shows as "Started" but the
> console says it's not installed, and the servers do not accept
> inbound/outbound traffic unless manually started through the console.

What language version of Windows is this ?

I had similar problems installing it on a non english Windows 2000,
I think it has to do with the "Program Files" folder being hardcoded
but I could be wrong.

The solution is simple, don't use the service version, use the app version
and use the scheduler to schedule the start of Hermes at "system start".

This works fine although you will not see or be able to start the gui
when you login without first killing it off in task manager.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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> It DOES show up in the service manager, and it shows as "Started" but the
> console says it's not installed, and the servers do not accept
> inbound/outbound traffic unless manually started through the console.

What language version of Windows is this ?

I had similar problems installing it on a non english Windows 2000,
I think it has to do with the "Program Files" folder being hardcoded
but I could be wrong.

The solution is simple, don't use the service version, use the app version
and use the scheduler to schedule the start of Hermes at "system start".

This works fine although you will not see or be able to start the gui
when you login without first killing it off in task manager.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

It doesn't matter if it shows up in the service manager or not if the
Control Panel for hermes thinks it's not installed, it will not start up the
POP/SMTP/Agent services.

It DOES show up in the service manager, and it shows as "Started" but the
console says it's not installed, and the servers do not accept
inbound/outbound traffic unless manually started through the console.

Lorand

-----Original Message-----

    Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:30:14 -0500
    From: "Alexander J. Fanti" <afanti@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4

Lorand,

I thought you said the service appeared in the service control manager.  If
so, then it's installed, regardless of what the Hermes manager says.  The
SCM is the definitive source.

Is Hermes listed in the SCM or not?

Alex

From: wangyu_china2002

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:48 PM

Subject: [Hermes-Server] Support Webmail?

Hi,how to let hermes support webmail(use asp)? we need what to
realize.and anyone have demo about webmail.
BTW,the hermes's speed is too slow than IMail,why?
Thread?Socket?... I want to know why?
thanks



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----- Original Message -----

From: Lorand S. D'Caltan

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 6:35 PM

Subject: RE: [Hermes-Server] Digest Number 4

It doesn't matter what I set the "recovery" tab to, because it doesn't even
recognize that the service is installed. It gives me the message "Cannot
manage service, try installing the service by going to..." etc.

I didn't move anything out of the folders, and I did a complete re-install,
i'm not quite sure what's going on, seems like it's just not getting the
message that the service is installed on the system.

Lorand

Hi,how to let hermes support webmail(use asp)? we need what to
realize.and anyone have demo about webmail.
BTW,the hermes's speed is too slow than IMail,why?
Thread?Socket?... I want to know why?
thanks

Hi,how to let hermes support webmail(use asp)? we need what to
realize.and anyone have demo about webmail.
BTW,the hermes's speed is too slow than IMail,why?
Thread?Socket?... I want to know why?
thanks

It doesn't matter what I set the "recovery" tab to, because it doesn't even
recognize that the service is installed. It gives me the message "Cannot
manage service, try installing the service by going to..." etc.

I didn't move anything out of the folders, and I did a complete re-install,
i'm not quite sure what's going on, seems like it's just not getting the
message that the service is installed on the system.

Lorand

-----Original Message-----
    Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 19:31:57 -0500
    From: "Alexander J. Fanti" <afanti@...>
Subject: Re: Hermes Service Version on 2k Advanced Server

Lorand,

Have you set the "recovery" tab in the service properties in the service
control manager?
You can set it to "restart the service" on failure / stoppage.  That's the
best thing to do.
The Hermes service has a problem that I haven't found yet.

The service's start up type should also be set here as "Automatic" which is
the default when Hermes installs... but may have been changed.  That should
be enough to get it to start on boot.

As for the management console's problems.  I don't know.  The exe and
service are in the same folder, right?
In the default folder?  If they don't communicate properly, I'd suggest the
first step is to re-install the whole thing, but I'm sure you've already
done that a few times ;-).

Try the other settings and see if it's better.  Let me know about the
rest...

Alex

From: AngelusBane

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 6:17 PM

Subject: [Hermes-Server] Hermes Service Version on 2k Advanced Server

I'm having a problem with the Service version of Hermes Mail Server
when running on Windows 2000 Advanced Server SP2

It seems to register the service ok, and it shows up in
the "Services" list in Computer Management, but when I open the
management console, it tells me that the service is not registered,
and it cannot manage the service. Even though the Start, Stop, Pause,
and Continue buttons all work after clicking once on the Start
button, and the service shows as "Installed"

The problem here is that the server does not auto-start, and it does
not continue itself when the console checks up on the service, so as
a result, I had to re-start the service every twenty minutes or so.

I'm back using the program version of Hermes, which has always served
me well, but i'd prefer to have it running as a service, any
suggestions?

lorand



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I'm having a problem with the Service version of Hermes Mail Server
when running on Windows 2000 Advanced Server SP2

It seems to register the service ok, and it shows up in
the "Services" list in Computer Management, but when I open the
management console, it tells me that the service is not registered,
and it cannot manage the service. Even though the Start, Stop, Pause,
and Continue buttons all work after clicking once on the Start
button, and the service shows as "Installed"

The problem here is that the server does not auto-start, and it does
not continue itself when the console checks up on the service, so as
a result, I had to re-start the service every twenty minutes or so.

I'm back using the program version of Hermes, which has always served
me well, but i'd prefer to have it running as a service, any
suggestions?

lorand

I am the novice to intermediate user of Hermes that Alex was talking
about. I use Hermes to send emails to two lists of people. It is
running on a Windows 2000 Pro box along with Apache. I would like to
create a PHP page which will allow users to subscribe and unsubscribe
themselves from these two lists. Can any of you help me out??

I'm a network admin, and can build servers all day long. My problem
is that I'm not much of a programmer, and don't know where to start
with this PHP page. I assume it's fairly straightforward since it's
just updating the related INI files, but I have ZERO idea how to do
that.

So, I can't add much to your discussion of the features in future
versions of Hermes, but I'm eager to see what these features are!

Thanks,

Kyle Irestone

Patrik,

I don't mind at all...  I'll do it too, especially when the mail is short
;-)

As for the latest thing... Feico de Boer wrote:

> I agree that step 1 is the most important, and in my opinion also the one
> that needs most thinking since it is the core of the system. Depending on
> the targeted audience I would also suggest to take volume and concurrence
in
> mind. How do you target Hermes, should it be for personal use or also for
big servers?

I still think of home users as the primary audience for Hermes, however I'd
like small ISPs to be able to use it as well.  Let me be clear here, I do
not intend to make Hermes so Mindspring can use it instead of Sendmail.
Super-optimized performance is nice, but not at the expense of ease of use
or setup or configuration.  Hermes is not targetted at professional
administrators, but semi-pros or amatures.  If performance can be achieved
without losing those things, then great!

> From my perspective INI files are for configuration only and you should
not
> put data in there. Ofcourse there is a need to store user specific details
> and to store the data. Personally I would suggest the flat stucture used
> before and maybe extend this with the users domain. When a users fetches
> it's mail it shouldn't be to hard to get the domain, anyway that's for
> later.

INI files are nice, but frankly, there's a lot of work in using them.
Constant folder and file availability checks, file locking issues, etc.  I
want simplicity in construction because IMHO, simplicity improves
reliability and reduces bugs / failures.

As for data distinctions, Messages are user data, all other information I
consider configuration information.  This includes the info for each
VServer, and each user (ie user forward settings).

> Actually, regular users should keep their fingers of the registry.
> Fortunately you need administrator rights to be able to edit it.

Actually this is a problem with the registry because it points out that if
Hermes uses the Registry, the system owner has to give it permission to do
so.  Just that fact alone makes me un-happy, and I know I'll get dozens of
emails about it! (Hermes says it can's store... what do I do?...)

> Getting info from memory is still the fastest way to go. Have you
considered
> storing configuration information in an XML file. Load on start-up and
> easily edited by admins using text or XML editors. You really should cache
> the configuration information in memory in my opinion. It's simply the
> fastest way to access the configuration details. Offcourse this makes it a
> bit harder to implement instantanious changes, but if you provide an admin
> interface you can signal the server for a reload. Admin that still use a
> text or XML editor know what they do and should signal the server(s) on
> their behalve.

True, this is the fastest access, but it doesn't make it "harder" to
implement instantaneous changes, I think it makes it impossible.  The only
way to implement a change is to "re-load" the config files.  The problem
with this is as follows:

Hermes will use data objects to represent user settings, VServer settings,
etc.  That is certain.  These objects are constructed in memory from a
"master" source such as an INI file or registry set.  Under most
circumstances, they must be destroyed and reconstructed to affect a
"reload".  This can only happen when the server is not involved in an
operation (ie the server is stopped).  I don't want to have to stop and
restart the server because a user wants to change their forwarding address.

Hermes must pull configuration "as needed" from whatever perminant storage
medium is chosen, be it Registry, INI files, XML files, SQL or whatever.
That being said, there is the possibility of a "two tier" mechanism:

Hermes reads the INI file into memory, the data objects pull dynamically
from the memory image.  A reload of the data file is required to affect
changes, but the data objects don't get destroyed.  This is doable, but less
than ideal.  It still requires a re-load, but now without the problem of
data corruption during the event.

> Oh, before I forget, to easy access to the XML file I think MS has
supplied
> a component that makes live more easy for programmers, just load the file
  > through it and it will be parsed for you. Don't know the details however.

XML is certainly more hierarchial than INI files, but certainly not as
high-performance.  Continuous XML parsing would probably be worse than the
registry solution, I think...  Either way I'm not terribly familiar with the
XML tools available, and I'd face a learning curve.  While I don't consider
that a waste of time, it's probably unnecessary.

> For large installations, maybe LDAP should even be considered to store
user
> information. This however depends on external components.

Agreed, LDAP is out for now.  Not necessarily for ever.

> For your information, Microsoft Internet Information Server uses it's own
> metabase to store configuration etcetera. Is the registry maybe not fast
> enough for high volume servers?

I don't know.  Maybe not.  Maybe it's the same mechanism but with a
different "file" so when Bill looses his registry, his web sites aren't
lost.

> The registry is just as hierarchical is the Windows filesystems.

Yes, but it's far easier to use.  See comments above about file/folder
validation.

> IMHO you should not (ab)use the registry as a regular storage container. I
> didn't even discuss the storage of the emails yet. Right here I want to
> point out the MS filesystems in the past didn't like lots of small files
> allthough NTFS is doing a bit better here. E.g. Outlook Express uses the
> Microsoft Jet Engine to store emails in 'folders' (each email folder is a
> jet file). This has it drawbacks too because the file gets fragmented
> internally and you need some sort of mechanism to 'optimize' usage.

> There is also the Microsoft SQL Server data engine (a kind of 'embedded'
SQL
> Server). However, since I believe you program in Delphi I don't think you
> have a licence to redistribute this server. Using a database for storage
is
> a good idea since all the administration hassle is taken away from you and
  > managed by the database engine. I agree on the support issue, you'd
better
> create a Hermes-Support mailinglist already. ;-)

> I really prefer reading design documents over code, especially since I'm a
> C-programmer.

Hmmm.  Instead of responding to these, I'm going to think about my goals and
criteria for Hermes in general and the data mechanism specifically, and try
to post something later today... OK?

Alex

Hello mr. policeman ;-),

Allthough I don't like to go into politics, sometimes it is better to
include as much off the original text as possible. At least for my replies I
found it hard to cut without loosing context, in general I agree with your
statement. With four members (last time I checked) on the list is hard not
being personal, right? BIG ;-) I've been on FIDO and Usenet for a while now
and I've heard of quoting. But anyway, personal or not, no hard feelings.

And one thing more, sorry for the double post. I was to impatient for Yahoo
Groups, my fault.

Regards,
Feico

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrik Lundin" <patrik@...>
To: <Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 12:31
Subject: Re: [Hermes-Server] Let's get started


>
> I'm gonna play list police for a while, hope you don't mind Alex.
>
> Just want to point out a basic thing with all mailing lists and news,
> do *not* leave *all* of the original text when replying.
>
> It makes it hard to read and the mails become unnecessary large.
>
> Patrik Lundin
> http://www.javathings.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Hermes-Server-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I'm gonna play list police for a while, hope you don't mind Alex.

Just want to point out a basic thing with all mailing lists and news,
do *not* leave *all* of the original text when replying.

It makes it hard to read and the mails become unnecessary large.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander J. Fanti" <afanti@...>
To: <Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 22:11
Subject: Re: [Hermes-Server] Let's get started


> Hi guys,
>
> Welcome.  Here's my development plan:
>
> I'm planning to do things in a certain order determined by how hard I find
> something to do, and how deterministic I think it is.  In other words, If
I
> think step 3 will determine what can be done in step 1 or 2, then step 3
> gets moved to step 1.  Bear with me on this.
>
> Here's the order I plan to tackle the next Hermes:
>
> 1) Data structures and storage.  This is the heart of the server's
> operational ability.  It is how Hermes will know who the users are, what
the
> domains are, what the mailing lists are, etc.  The current equivalent is
the
> Hermes INI file system.
>
> 2) User Interface.  Obviously, this exposes the Hermes data system to a
> computer user for management.
>
> 3) Client / Server code.  Well, I'm sure you can guess what this does.
>
> Right now, I'm planning a complete (90+ %) rewrite of the current version
of
> Hermes.  This is mainly because I'm finding the current Data system too
> limited to add the multi-domain feature.  BTW: let's refer to this as
> Virtual Domains (or VDomains) as in MS Server Managers...  Other reasons
> include what I consider to be a poor implementation of the SMTP agent, and
a
> less than stellar logging system.
>
> Forget 2 and 3 for now.  I'm not even going to think about them until #1
is
> settled.  Now here is the big thing with #1:
> How should it work?  First, some background.

I agree that step 1 is the most important, and in my opinion also the one
that needs most thinking since it is the core of the system. Depending on
the targeted audience I would also suggest to take volume and concurrence in
mind. How do you target Hermes, should it be for personal use or also for
big servers?

> Currently Hermes stores everything in INI files (windows INI file format).
> The files are organized nominally by a very flat directory structure which
> is basically a folder for each user (mainly to store their mail).
>
> The benefit of this is that it's easy for people to look at these files,
> modify them, etc.  This is important to let people write their own
software,
> scripts, etc to manipulate Hermes, and to have access to the data Hermes
> uses.  For example, you could write a WebPOP server that runs 100%
> independant of Hermes, and yet delivers Hermes mail.  In fact, someone
did.
>
> The drawback of this mechanism is that it requires constant file access,
and
> has no real hierarchy, which I think is essential to the future of Hermes.

From my perspective INI files are for configuration only and you should not
put data in there. Ofcourse there is a need to store user specific details
and to store the data. Personally I would suggest the flat stucture used
before and maybe extend this with the users domain. When a users fetches
it's mail it shouldn't be to hard to get the domain, anyway that's for
later.

> So, What I've been thinging of is using the Windows Registry to store
Hermes
> operational data.  Here are the drawbacks:
>
> 1) It's the registry.  It gets corrupted!  I've lost my Win2K registry
about
> every 7 months like clockwork for the past 2 years now.  Thanks Bill!
> Anyway, this is a major problem, because the server config could be lost
> when Windows drops the ball.

Never had a problem with this, maybe I'm more carefull. ;-)

> 2) The registry is harder to manage for most users.  It's not like opening
a
> text file.  You need to use RegEdit or another tool to get to it.  It's
also
> not as accessable from certain development tools, although there are
> probably libraries for all the popular ones.

Actually, regular users should keep their fingers of the registry.
Fortunately you need administrator rights to be able to edit it.

> 3) Because of the way I want to run Hermes (never store anything in
memory,
> and always read from the "master" data source, so all config changes are
> instantly implemented, there will be a hell of a lot of registry access
> going on when Hermes is doing anything.

Getting info from memory is still the fastest way to go. Have you considered
storing configuration information in an XML file. Load on start-up and
easily edited by admins using text or XML editors. You really should cache
the configuration information in memory in my opinion. It's simply the
fastest way to access the configuration details. Offcourse this makes it a
bit harder to implement instantanious changes, but if you provide an admin
interface you can signal the server for a reload. Admin that still use a
text or XML editor know what they do and should signal the server(s) on
their behalve.

Oh, before I forget, to easy access to the XML file I think MS has supplied
a component that makes live more easy for programmers, just load the file
through it and it will be parsed for you. Don't know the details however.

For large installations, maybe LDAP should even be considered to store user
information. This however depends on external components.

> Now, here are the benefits or counters to the above:
>
> 1) Registry access is faster than file access, improving server
performance.
> It's been optimized, and cached by MS for jsut this reason, in fact,
opening
> a web page causes more registry hits than you'd expect, so Hermes usage
> would probably not stand head and shoulders above other system
> applications...

For your information, Microsoft Internet Information Server uses it's own
metabase to store configuration etcetera. Is the registry maybe not fast
enough for high volume servers?

> 2) The registry is hierarchial, and lends itself to objectification better
> than file systems do.

The registry is just as hierarchical is the Windows filesystems.

> 3) The registry can be managed with a number of tools, and backed up,
> remotely edited, etc.  By using this M$ product, I think I'm making Hermes
> more "open".

With my XML storage suggestion you can backup as well with any tool. Just
don't keep the file open and you will be save when backing up.

> 4) The registry can be backed up, and I can provide a mechanism where
Hermes
> can "archive" its settings to a file for crash protection anyway.

See 3).

> 5) Most programmers and sysadmins are comfortable with the registry and
> probably can "manage" Hermes programatically through it.  I think ;-)

> Given this, I've started writing a data storage system.  It's not
complete,
> but the framework is this: Use the registry for storage; re-read data from
> the registry for every operation (ie user checks mail, etc.)
>
> What do you all think?  Am I going down the wrong road here?

I work as a performance test engineer for a large software company. No, not
Microsoft ;-). As such I would really like to see a design description
before anything is coded. After coding it is so much more expensive to make
design changes. At some point a choice has to be made but I offer some time
here for a review.

IMHO you should not (ab)use the registry as a regular storage container. I
didn't even discuss the storage of the emails yet. Right here I want to
point out the MS filesystems in the past didn't like lots of small files
allthough NTFS is doing a bit better here. E.g. Outlook Express uses the
Microsoft Jet Engine to store emails in 'folders' (each email folder is a
jet file). This has it drawbacks too because the file gets fragmented
internally and you need some sort of mechanism to 'optimize' usage.

> The other alternative is using a relational database, like MySQL or
Access.
> The reason I have not gone this route yet is that I feel there's a serious
> performance penalty; I do not have a great mastery of SQL (although I was
> paid to write it for a time ;-) ; I think ODBC is great, but we're getting
> into heavy support requirements, etc.

There is also the Microsoft SQL Server data engine (a kind of 'embedded' SQL
Server). However, since I believe you program in Delphi I don't think you
have a licence to redistribute this server. Using a database for storage is
a good idea since all the administration hassle is taken away from you and
managed by the database engine. I agree on the support issue, you'd better
create a Hermes-Support mailinglist already. ;-)

> Anyway, chime in.  I plan to settle on the data system, then begin
> populating the data structures with parameters / properties.  These will
> determine what the server can do.  Once we get there, I'm going to do each
> object one at a time.  I'll post the code to the list and let every body

I really prefer reading design documents over code, especially since I'm a
C-programmer.

> suggest additions or re-organization.  Then I'll try to "finalize" it and
> we'll move on to the next item.  At these points, I'll be looking for
"when
> we read a POP3 message from another server, check the To: field for one or
> more addresses seperated by semi-colons, then look for full qualification,
> etc..."
>
> Good?

I agree that the POP fetcher is one of the last things to think about.

> Alex
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrik Lundin" <patrik@...>
> To: <Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 9:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [Hermes-Server] Let's get started
>
>
> > > like the POP3 fetcher, because I just don't have one to
> > > use as a guide.
> >
> > Some of these might be helpful as reference:
> >
> > Email server written in Java with a POP3 Fetcher functionality
> > is available with source at:
> > http://www.jps.at/java/tools/mailserver.html
> >
> > ETRN mail kicker in Delphi can be found at:
> > http://www.boris.org.uk/borisware/etrn.html
> >
> > Other mail servers with source is:
> > http://www.xmailserver.org/
> > http://www.2cah.com/email/downloads.php
> >
> > > Apart from that, I would love to see a possibility to have a 'catch
> > > all' account that gets email delivered for not existing users.
> >
> > Domain wide accounts might be useful but it should of course be
> selectable,
> > such a feature would be a real spam collector since they don't even
> > have to have a valid email address, just the domain.
> >
> > For me personally the most important new features are better relaying
> > control and at least a simple spam filter.
> >
> > I also agree it would be useful to get a complete list of planned
> features,
> > maybe Alex could set up a vote on his site for the different features ?
> >
> > Patrik Lundin
> > http://www.javathings.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Hermes-Server-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Hermes-Server-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Patrik Lundin

To: Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:29 AM

Subject: Re: [Hermes-Server] Data storage mechanisms...

> but I guess a BLOB in a database could do the same job.

A text field would probably suffice since there will be no binary
data.

I haven't really read the RFC for "Arpa Internet Messages" yet but
isn't an email always pure text ? If there's an attachment it's usually
encoded in Base64 ?

> My only problem is that I don't want to require the user to have a database,
> any sort of database.

Yes, it would probably be a bit overkill to require an SQL server, but it would
probably work great as a storage system.

> I'm thinking that if the data objects are done properly, there could be two
> versions,

Yes, if you don't mind the extra work ;-)

If you look at for example Ipswitch Imail there's an option when installing it to use
a database for the users, don't know about the message storage, I think it's
just files there as well.

Anyway, any of these methods, will work just as well.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Hermes-Server-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

> but I guess a BLOB in a database could do the same job.

A text field would probably suffice since there will be no binary
data.

I haven't really read the RFC for "Arpa Internet Messages" yet but
isn't an email always pure text ? If there's an attachment it's usually
encoded in Base64 ?

> My only problem is that I don't want to require the user to have a database,
> any sort of database.

Yes, it would probably be a bit overkill to require an SQL server, but it would
probably work great as a storage system.

> I'm thinking that if the data objects are done properly, there could be two
> versions,

Yes, if you don't mind the extra work ;-)

If you look at for example Ipswitch Imail there's an option when installing it
to use
a database for the users, don't know about the message storage, I think it's
just files there as well.

Anyway, any of these methods, will work just as well.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

> The other alternative is using a relational database, like MySQL or Access.

Iw as also thinking that MySQL would be a great thing to use here, although
not all users may like to have an (almost) full fledged SQL server running
on their system just to run a mail server.

I don't think SQL storage would have any less performance than registry
access, in fact I belive the registry almost always would be slower than
an SQL database.

The ideal thing about using an SQL server is that you can store just about
anything in it, usernames, passwords (encrypted), the messages, all the server
settings and you can do all sorts of simple or advanced queries to get the
information and also it would be very easy to generate statistics.

Built in support for encrypting passwords are also something that
speaks for the use of MySQL ( or another SQL server ).

Most programmers are familiar with SQL and there are libraries for connecting
to SQL servers in just about every programming language.

Also, you would not need to invent a registry key hiriarchy.

Using MySQL would be ideal since it's free to use and bundle with any
application.

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

Hi guys,

Welcome.  Here's my development plan:

I'm planning to do things in a certain order determined by how hard I find
something to do, and how deterministic I think it is.  In other words, If I
think step 3 will determine what can be done in step 1 or 2, then step 3
gets moved to step 1.  Bear with me on this.

Here's the order I plan to tackle the next Hermes:

1) Data structures and storage.  This is the heart of the server's
operational ability.  It is how Hermes will know who the users are, what the
domains are, what the mailing lists are, etc.  The current equivalent is the
Hermes INI file system.

2) User Interface.  Obviously, this exposes the Hermes data system to a
computer user for management.

3) Client / Server code.  Well, I'm sure you can guess what this does.

Right now, I'm planning a complete (90+ %) rewrite of the current version of
Hermes.  This is mainly because I'm finding the current Data system too
limited to add the multi-domain feature.  BTW: let's refer to this as
Virtual Domains (or VDomains) as in MS Server Managers...  Other reasons
include what I consider to be a poor implementation of the SMTP agent, and a
less than stellar logging system.

Forget 2 and 3 for now.  I'm not even going to think about them until #1 is
settled.  Now here is the big thing with #1:
How should it work?  First, some background.

Currently Hermes stores everything in INI files (windows INI file format).
The files are organized nominally by a very flat directory structure which
is basically a folder for each user (mainly to store their mail).

The benefit of this is that it's easy for people to look at these files,
modify them, etc.  This is important to let people write their own software,
scripts, etc to manipulate Hermes, and to have access to the data Hermes
uses.  For example, you could write a WebPOP server that runs 100%
independant of Hermes, and yet delivers Hermes mail.  In fact, someone did.

The drawback of this mechanism is that it requires constant file access, and
has no real hierarchy, which I think is essential to the future of Hermes.

So, What I've been thinging of is using the Windows Registry to store Hermes
operational data.  Here are the drawbacks:

1) It's the registry.  It gets corrupted!  I've lost my Win2K registry about
every 7 months like clockwork for the past 2 years now.  Thanks Bill!
Anyway, this is a major problem, because the server config could be lost
when Windows drops the ball.

2) The registry is harder to manage for most users.  It's not like opening a
text file.  You need to use RegEdit or another tool to get to it.  It's also
not as accessable from certain development tools, although there are
probably libraries for all the popular ones.

3) Because of the way I want to run Hermes (never store anything in memory,
and always read from the "master" data source, so all config changes are
instantly implemented, there will be a hell of a lot of registry access
going on when Hermes is doing anything.

Now, here are the benefits or counters to the above:

1) Registry access is faster than file access, improving server performance.
It's been optimized, and cached by MS for jsut this reason, in fact, opening
a web page causes more registry hits than you'd expect, so Hermes usage
would probably not stand head and shoulders above other system
applications...

2) The registry is hierarchial, and lends itself to objectification better
than file systems do.

3) The registry can be managed with a number of tools, and backed up,
remotely edited, etc.  By using this M$ product, I think I'm making Hermes
more "open".

4) The registry can be backed up, and I can provide a mechanism where Hermes
can "archive" its settings to a file for crash protection anyway.

5) Most programmers and sysadmins are comfortable with the registry and
probably can "manage" Hermes programatically through it.  I think ;-)

Given this, I've started writing a data storage system.  It's not complete,
but the framework is this: Use the registry for storage; re-read data from
the registry for every operation (ie user checks mail, etc.)

What do you all think?  Am I going down the wrong road here?

The other alternative is using a relational database, like MySQL or Access.
The reason I have not gone this route yet is that I feel there's a serious
performance penalty; I do not have a great mastery of SQL (although I was
paid to write it for a time ;-) ; I think ODBC is great, but we're getting
into heavy support requirements, etc.

Anyway, chime in.  I plan to settle on the data system, then begin
populating the data structures with parameters / properties.  These will
determine what the server can do.  Once we get there, I'm going to do each
object one at a time.  I'll post the code to the list and let every body
suggest additions or re-organization.  Then I'll try to "finalize" it and
we'll move on to the next item.  At these points, I'll be looking for "when
we read a POP3 message from another server, check the To: field for one or
more addresses seperated by semi-colons, then look for full qualification,
etc..."

Good?

Alex








----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrik Lundin" <patrik@...>
To: <Hermes-Server@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Hermes-Server] Let's get started


> > like the POP3 fetcher, because I just don't have one to
> > use as a guide.
>
> Some of these might be helpful as reference:
>
> Email server written in Java with a POP3 Fetcher functionality
> is available with source at:
> http://www.jps.at/java/tools/mailserver.html
>
> ETRN mail kicker in Delphi can be found at:
> http://www.boris.org.uk/borisware/etrn.html
>
> Other mail servers with source is:
> http://www.xmailserver.org/
> http://www.2cah.com/email/downloads.php
>
> > Apart from that, I would love to see a possibility to have a 'catch
> > all' account that gets email delivered for not existing users.
>
> Domain wide accounts might be useful but it should of course be
selectable,
> such a feature would be a real spam collector since they don't even
> have to have a valid email address, just the domain.
>
> For me personally the most important new features are better relaying
> control and at least a simple spam filter.
>
> I also agree it would be useful to get a complete list of planned
features,
> maybe Alex could set up a vote on his site for the different features ?
>
> Patrik Lundin
> http://www.javathings.com
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Hermes-Server-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> like the POP3 fetcher, because I just don't have one to
> use as a guide.

Some of these might be helpful as reference:

Email server written in Java with a POP3 Fetcher functionality
is available with source at:
http://www.jps.at/java/tools/mailserver.html

ETRN mail kicker in Delphi can be found at:
http://www.boris.org.uk/borisware/etrn.html

Other mail servers with source is:
http://www.xmailserver.org/
http://www.2cah.com/email/downloads.php

> Apart from that, I would love to see a possibility to have a 'catch
> all' account that gets email delivered for not existing users.

Domain wide accounts might be useful but it should of course be selectable,
such a feature would be a real spam collector since they don't even
have to have a valid email address, just the domain.

For me personally the most important new features are better relaying
control and at least a simple spam filter.

I also agree it would be useful to get a complete list of planned features,
maybe Alex could set up a vote on his site for the different features ?

Patrik Lundin
http://www.javathings.com

<quote from website>
I've created a "Hermes mailing list" at Yahoo. They'll host the
files too... so I'm going to give them a try. Here's the info you
need to check it out.

I've started the major new version (2.0). I'm working on the
configuration storage mechanism. I really need some help with some
features... like the POP3 fetcher, because I just don't have one to
use as a guide. Anyone interested?

</quote from website>

Please post a list of features on this list to see what we may
expect.

My 2 cents for what it is worth. I would like to have the POP
messages fetched and being delivered as if it was delivered locally
through SMTP. In my opionion this means parsing the "To:" field
according to some rules and match these to local users.

Some rules I can think off:
- match user name before @ with local users/aliases
- as above, but include domain as well

Apart from that, I would love to see a possibility to have a 'catch
all' account that gets email delivered for not existing users. I
currently have a third level domain and I can use any name before
the @-sign. However, I don't like to create an account or alias for
every once and a while used name.

Regards,
Feico.