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ISO8601 · To bring the International Date and Time Format to the attention of the Internet world and beyond.
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UTC didn't exist before 1961   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #2176 of 2202 |
Re: UTC didn't exist before 1961

In a very strict technical sense it may have been overlooked.


However, prior to atomic clocks, you have to relax the formality of beating in
synch with atomic clocks. It obviously approximates (within 0.9 s, that is why
leap seconds are used) mean solar time at Greenwich. Formerly that time was
kept as GMT or UT1 (Note: GMT had a confusing period where astronomers counted
from noon, and civilly, hours were counted from midnight). GMT was used from
1884 when Greenwich was accepted by international convention as the Prime
Meredian (and used by many nations prior to that).

Your bigger problem is when did political entities switch from local mean solar
time to standard time. In most places it was adopted first by railroads and
some local entitites, eventually national. The US was 1918, with some prior use
by individual cities and states.

The "Z" designation for time at Greenwich was used long before UTC.

I think your 1961 boundary can be pushed back to when the country of interest
declared "standard time" (if you can determine how many hours off Greenwich.
There are a LOT of time zone changes.)

Prior to standard time, there may be a problem, although if you know the
longitude of a place, you could calculate the time shift from Greenwich to the
nearest minute (1 hour/15°). Rarely are times back then known with any great
accuracy.

--- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "pqrc96" <pqrc96@...> wrote:
>
> Some people who write in Wikipedia are interested in using
> microformats to provide a machine-readable version of important dates
> and times, in the hopes that future software will be better able to
> mine data from articles. Dates and times in microformat purport to
> conform to the ISO 8601 standard, but at least in the case of
> Wikipedia, the people interested in implementing this sort of thing
> don't have a clear understanding of time zones or the need to use
> the Gregorian calendar. Upon re-reading the standard to see if some
> of these items could be cleared up, I noticed that the standard has
> an oversignt, in that it allows for dates and times before the
> beginning of UTC but does not provide a way to specify a time zone
> for these dates, because doing so requires UTC. In a standard that
> is so careful to explain the meaning of every single character, this
> seems like an error. Of course, people will go ahead and extend it
> backward however they please, but strictly speaking, they are no
> longer using ISO 8601, they are using their own private extension.
>
> --- In ISO8601@yahoogroups.com, "johnmsteele" <johnmsteele@> wrote:
> > . . .
> > What are you trying to do exactly and what time records are you
> having
> > trouble relating to UTC?
>





Sat May 23, 2009 10:26 pm

johnmsteele
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Message #2176 of 2202 |
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All the parts of the standard that discuss Universal Time or time zones specify that everything is based on Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). But UTC didn't...
pqrc96
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Feb 28, 2009
8:14 pm

8601 also requires the use of the Gregorian calendar, which did not exist prior to 1582, for all dates. It is easy to extrapolate back. For time, the concept...
johnmsteele
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Mar 1, 2009
12:59 am

Some people who write in Wikipedia are interested in using microformats to provide a machine-readable version of important dates and times, in the hopes that...
pqrc96
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May 23, 2009
6:56 pm

In a very strict technical sense it may have been overlooked. However, prior to atomic clocks, you have to relax the formality of beating in synch with atomic...
johnmsteele
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May 23, 2009
10:26 pm

I don't see a problem....
piebaldconsult
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May 25, 2009
3:58 am

Did the responses answer your question sufficiently? The problem(s) are not really with the standard. As you go back in time, UTC doesn't exist, time zones...
Tex Texin
textexin
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May 25, 2009
8:31 am

Right. Doesn't the standard call for a proleptic Gregorian calender for dates before 1582 & after the present (and that more digits/negative dates are allowed...
nguyenivy@...
ali0917
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May 25, 2009
8:53 am

... Yes, but seconds generally aren't important in day-to-day events anyway. If you're going to try to calculate an offset to great precision you may need to...
piebaldconsult
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May 26, 2009
2:09 pm

I was thinking of historical examples like the offset The Netherlands used sometime in the last 100 years that had an offset precise to the centisecond....
nguyenivy@...
ali0917
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May 26, 2009
11:35 pm

I started this thread. After seeing the responses, I don't really see anything that would change my ideas, but knowing that my thoughts have been reviewed by...
pqrc96
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May 29, 2009
9:21 am

Hi, You are welcome to do whatever you want of course, but I don’t think this is what was suggested or recommended and I don’t think you should in any way ...
Tex Texin
textexin
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May 29, 2009
9:46 am

I agree with Tex's remarks. But I would add the following three points: *Dates don't have time zones. Only times or "date and time" representations have time...
johnmsteele
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May 29, 2009
11:39 am

John Good comments. I am surprised by your comment on dates. Dates definitely do have time zones. Since time zones span 25 hours, without mention of the zone, ...
Tex Texin
textexin
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May 29, 2009
11:54 am

... Personally, I think that would be fairly silly....
piebaldconsult
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Jun 1, 2009
2:57 am

... That's fine if your application imposes such restrictions, but it is not what ISO 8601 requires. ISO 8601 fixes some notations but it does not constrain...
Deckers, Michael
michael.deckers
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Jun 4, 2009
6:50 pm

... True, so we may never know the offset, but that doesn't interfere with using ISO 8601. You can simply indicate "local time" by not specifying the offset....
piebaldconsult
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May 26, 2009
2:03 pm

No....
piebaldconsult
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Apr 4, 2009
3:44 pm

Tex,   I agree with the dilemma you pose.  In reality, that means date alone often does not suffice and you must consider time of day as well.   However, in...
John Steele
johnmsteele
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May 29, 2009
12:56 pm

When I mentioned in an earlier post that I would reject certain date-times in the ISO 8601 format, I meant that I would halt processing or flag them for...
G Ashton
pqrc96
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May 29, 2009
5:33 pm
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