Here is your chance to get yourself a x'mas & New year gift!


http://klaudiodoctor.blogspot.com/2009/12/this-thing-called-jazz-and-more-vol-1.\
html

A write up of the listening session............................



http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.com/2009/12/loves-tapestry-music-preview-session.\
html




________________________________
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2009 10:04:31
Subject: Listening session


Hi All,


Please take note of the date of this listening session.

http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.com/2009/11/pop-pop-music-cmy-audio-visual-and-hi\
fi.html




________________________________

________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,


For those who are not too sure what's happening. Tony has referred leejammies as
the person who reviewed the R305 in the
Audiofile column of the Star Publication. An indication that Truck is also
leejammies, a member with 2 ids or 2 nicks. See para 2
of Tony's posting below.

extracted from para 2:

"Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening
and loss of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this
wasn't obtrusive." (Audiofile review of R305)."

Regards,
co-moderator,
Vic.





________________________________
From: truck168 <truck168@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 14:55:21
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs


Tony,

Hey ... are you implicating me? You think I would stoop to such an infantile
measure and pose as someone else in this forum? Pleaselah, you dont know me and
I dont ever want to know you or what some fool like you would do.

YOU ARE NOT WORTH MY TIME AND MY EFFORT AND I NEVER WANT TO HEAR YOU ADDRESS ME
OR MAKE A REFERENCE EVER AGAIN.

I'll give you a chance - PROVE IT or get out of KLANS and never come back again.

To the others out there, sorry about this, but Tony has been barred from the
forum.

Truck

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
>
> How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good
ones) capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to
wall/corners which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before
roll off. Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response
from 70hz to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the
problem starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a
frequencies overlap at 70hz.
>
> Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).
>
> Tony
> p.s. Already watched that but not in 3D though. Anyway, nothing like watching
that in the comfort of home wearing my favorite fire truck jammies.





       Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com.
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I define bass as 100Hz and below.  Depending on the listening environment,
compression can make the bass sound pretty decent.

Your statement about problems starting at crossover point of 20hz to 70hz, my
opinion is, your driver is not good enough.  If you can pay, there are 20hz to
180hz drivers out there.

  Rgds


Adrian Chin
adchin@...




________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 2:10:58 PM
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs


How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good ones)
capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to wall/corners
which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before roll off.
Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response from 70hz
to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the problem
starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a frequencies
overlap at 70hz.

Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tony,

Hey ... are you implicating me? You think I would stoop to such an infantile
measure and pose as someone else in this forum? Pleaselah, you dont know me and
I dont ever want to know you or what some fool like you would do.

YOU ARE NOT WORTH MY TIME AND MY EFFORT AND I NEVER WANT TO HEAR YOU ADDRESS ME
OR MAKE A REFERENCE EVER AGAIN.

I'll give you a chance - PROVE IT or get out of KLANS and never come back again.

To the others out there, sorry about this, but Tony has been barred from the
forum.

Truck





--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
>
> How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good
ones) capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to
wall/corners which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before
roll off. Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response
from 70hz to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the
problem starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a
frequencies overlap at 70hz.
>
> Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).
>
> Tony
> p.s. Already watched that but not in 3D though. Anyway, nothing like watching
that in the comfort of home wearing my favorite fire truck jammies.

Hi Vic,

Yes, that's why some DSP actually do wonders.

Tony


--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tony,
>
>
> Hate to have to chip in here!!! But I'm doing it!!!
>
>
> If u are talking hypothetical situation. Then I will say hypothetically u can
use a state of the art digital  EQ device and precisely join from 70hz. Can't u?
It's hypothetical isn't it?
>
>
> But in real life it's not a breeze, right?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Vic.
>
> PS: over to u lee. Speak your mind, please.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 14:10:58
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
>
> How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good
ones) capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to
wall/corners which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before
roll off. Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response
from 70hz to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the
problem starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a
frequencies overlap at 70hz.
>
> Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).
>
> Tony
> p.s. Already watched that but not in 3D though. Anyway, nothing like watching
that in the comfort of home wearing my favorite fire truck jammies.
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > I dont understand your numbers. can u explain what you're saying? all I know
is the sub doesnt disturb the main speaker and only if there is bass then it
starts to work. so all your theories about colouration doesnt apply.
> >
> > I can recommend a better movie for you and a new one. Showing in GSC now and
even see in 3d - A Christmas Carol, maybe you can learn something from the
scrooge guy. humbug
> >
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My subwoofer is DIY. Cheap stuff.
> > >
> > > But even looking at R205 specs at the lowest crossover setting of 25hz at
the volume of 75db  of drops about 25db at at 70kz. If you have a speaker and
flat frequencies response from 70hz to 20khz wouldn't an increase of 50db at
70hz affect the quality of the main speakers?
> > > It is worse at 85db because it extend to 200hz.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > (Tonite HT day watching Mission impossible - enjoy the part where they
disguise with the plastic face)
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>       New Email names for you!
> Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
> Hurry before someone else does!
> http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Tony,


Hate to have to chip in here!!! But I'm doing it!!!


If u are talking hypothetical situation. Then I will say hypothetically u can
use a state of the art digital  EQ device and precisely join from 70hz. Can't u?
It's hypothetical isn't it?


But in real life it's not a breeze, right?


Cheers,
Vic.

PS: over to u lee. Speak your mind, please.




________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 14:10:58
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs



How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good ones)
capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to wall/corners
which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before roll off.
Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response from 70hz
to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the problem
starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a frequencies
overlap at 70hz.

Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).

Tony
p.s. Already watched that but not in 3D though. Anyway, nothing like watching
that in the comfort of home wearing my favorite fire truck jammies.

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ ...> wrote:
>
> I dont understand your numbers. can u explain what you're saying? all I know
is the sub doesnt disturb the main speaker and only if there is bass then it
starts to work. so all your theories about colouration doesnt apply.
>
> I can recommend a better movie for you and a new one. Showing in GSC now and
even see in 3d - A Christmas Carol, maybe you can learn something from the
scrooge guy. humbug
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > My subwoofer is DIY. Cheap stuff.
> >
> > But even looking at R205 specs at the lowest crossover setting of 25hz at
the volume of 75db  of drops about 25db at at 70kz. If you have a speaker and
flat frequencies response from 70hz to 20khz wouldn't an increase of 50db at
70hz affect the quality of the main speakers?
> > It is worse at 85db because it extend to 200hz.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > (Tonite HT day watching Mission impossible - enjoy the part where they
disguise with the plastic face)
> >
> >
>
> >
>





       New Email names for you!
Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How do you define bass? 80hz downwards? 200hz downwards? All speakers(good ones)
capable of being flat at least to 80hz. With placement closer to wall/corners
which reinforces the bass it would go down few more decades before roll off.
Let's say hypothetically your main speakers give out a flat response from 70hz
to 20khz and you wanted to add more bass from 20hz to 70khz but the problem
starts no matter where you set your crossover there will be a frequencies
overlap at 70hz.

Even you mentioned that when you said " There was a slight thickening and loss
of transient detail, but due to the low crossover point, this wasn't obtrusive."
(Audiofile review of R305).

Tony
p.s. Already watched that but not in 3D though. Anyway, nothing like watching
that in the comfort of home wearing my favorite fire truck jammies.




--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@...> wrote:
>
> I dont understand your numbers. can u explain what you're saying? all I know
is the sub doesnt disturb the main speaker and only if there is bass then it
starts to work. so all your theories about colouration doesnt apply.
>
> I can recommend a better movie for you and a new one. Showing in GSC now and
even see in 3d - A Christmas Carol, maybe you can learn something from the
scrooge guy. humbug
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > My subwoofer is DIY. Cheap stuff.
> >
> > But even looking at R205 specs at the lowest crossover setting of 25hz at
the volume of 75db  of drops about 25db at at 70kz. If you have a speaker and
flat frequencies response from 70hz to 20khz wouldn't an increase of 50db at
70hz affect the quality of the main speakers?
> > It is worse at 85db because it extend to 200hz.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > (Tonite HT day watching Mission impossible - enjoy the part where they
disguise with the plastic face)
> >
> >
>
> >
>

I dont understand your numbers. can u explain what you're saying? all I know is
the sub doesnt disturb the main speaker and only if there is bass then it starts
to work. so all your theories about colouration doesnt apply.

I can recommend a better movie for you and a new one. Showing in GSC now and
even see in 3d - A Christmas Carol, maybe you can learn something from the
scrooge guy. humbug


--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> My subwoofer is DIY. Cheap stuff.
>
> But even looking at R205 specs at the lowest crossover setting of 25hz at the
volume of 75db  of drops about 25db at at 70kz. If you have a speaker and flat
frequencies response from 70hz to 20khz wouldn't an increase of 50db at 70hz
affect the quality of the main speakers?
> It is worse at 85db because it extend to 200hz.
>
> Tony
>
> (Tonite HT day watching Mission impossible - enjoy the part where they
disguise with the plastic face)
>
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> >
> > Who is talking about winning and losing and what you dont get? you say you
have a sub so I want to know what sub you use and why you use if you have
problems. Maybe its not subwoofer giving problem but a setup problem. I use REL
R205 in small room (15x9) and the sound is better than without a sub. My sub
give me better bass and the treble and mid is the same so I dont understand why
you have a problem. No clouration for me and bass boom prblem solved with
position and corner room treatment. If you say what sub and speaker you use and
how you set up your hifi than maybe we know what to do or not to do. I prefer to
use subwoofer but not everybody can. Setting up one sub properly is already
susah so why do you say using more makes the sound better?
> >
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Mmm..I am not getting it. I said multiple subs is the way to go. I use a
sub but I said it colours the sound because small room. I said it is  huge trade
off in a small room. Big room like wikin's is a blessing. Ok lah you win. Aiyoh
difficult to discusslah... when we talk about on another topic Truck was asking
what Beatles I owned and now you are also asking what equipment. I guess KLANS
advocates sub under all conditions. You need to own something before talking
about music. You win.
> > >
> > > Tony.
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use
also? you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to
make the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover
and volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and
no boom and coloration
> > > >
> > > > smart alex exactlee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think.
As I explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room
is small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile
to do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not smart alec
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you
cannot just use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing.
doesnt mean can only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length
of 20hz.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is
your sub and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz,
is your room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use
it and why you buy if cannot?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder
Everybody can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lee
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news
with the subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way
traffic saje?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > > > > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size,
its how you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at
40hz, wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how
many rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lee
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > me to wonder..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding
all sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Just me
> > > > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i wonder....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > > > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > > > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > curious,
> > > > > > > > > > jimmy
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >       Vic,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest
distance/border) . What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the
20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Wide awake
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi,

If its loud enough, moves enough air you will feel it.
Listen to the bass drum of a marching band, pitch is not low yet you can feel
it.

Rgds



________________________________
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 3:33:06 PM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs


Hi Rabin,

Despited unable to hear much, surprisingly there is some subtle 'feel' to the
low hz, something not possible without
the subs. So it's either want it or don't want it, quite simple actually. KM is
supposed to come chart the room response,
and if i can get chelvam to come do a measurement, that would provide some
useful information i am sure. So that's
about only what the microphone could pick up, the sound. What about the feel
part? Difficult to know more isn't it?

Regards,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ yahoo.com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 19:01:36
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

UV,

Yes it does look bad until you realise that your multi subs are not so much
about the lows but about what they do to the modes in your room. I would think
plotting your room with one sub as compared to two or more or all the subs will
show the difference on paper i.e much less peaks and dips.

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:30:48 PM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Hi Rabin,

Actually, if i used one of those test cds for ICE, that provide definite track
no, and type of hz.......... then only can
i find if any of the low hz is present. Unfortunately, nothing 'appears' from
20hz .......maybe about above 30hz start
to hear faintly, and more distinct after 40hz la.  Meaning about doing 10hz
better/lower than some floorstanders.
Looks bad isn't it?

Cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ yahoo.com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 10:20:55
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

UV, Anyone,
What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?

Tony,
What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point or
how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the properties/capabili
ties of the sub and main speaker?

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to hear
very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then it's
acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room that
could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.

cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Vic,

Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What will be
the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

Wide awake
Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@. ..> wrote:
>
> Hi tony,
>
> Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and obtain
good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every room is
still different from each other.
>
> Cheers,
> Vic.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
>
>
> Hi,
>
> How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And isn't
it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly affordable
that most people add sub(s).
> > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down to,
determine if you should go multi-sub.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> >
> > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> >
> > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go for
full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good boom
boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> >
> > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> >
> > HT Nut,
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > >
> > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer manufacturers
and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet installs, here's
what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > >
> > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder bass.
"Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area,"
explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively
long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > >
> > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better performance and
yield flatter response."
> > >
> > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when décor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > >
> > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio. "I'm
rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk people
out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > >
> > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air. The
window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > >
> > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > >
> > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > >
> > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > >
> > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers, we
can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > >
> > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > >
> > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be, use
multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than trying
to hide freestanding units."
> > >
> > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder audio
performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the correct
place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>       Get your new Email address!
> Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Hi Rabin,

Despited unable to hear much, surprisingly there is some subtle 'feel' to the
low hz, something not possible without
the subs. So it's either want it or don't want it, quite simple actually. KM is
supposed to come chart the room response,
and if i can get chelvam to come do a measurement, that would provide some
useful information i am sure. So that's
about only what the microphone could pick up, the sound. What about the feel
part? Difficult to know more isn't it?

Regards,
Vic.




________________________________
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 19:01:36
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs


UV,

Yes it does look bad until you realise that your multi subs are not so much
about the lows but about what they do to the modes in your room. I would think
plotting your room with one sub as compared to two or more or all the subs will
show the difference on paper i.e much less peaks and dips.

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:30:48 PM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Hi Rabin,

Actually, if i used one of those test cds for ICE, that provide definite track
no, and type of hz.......... then only can
i find if any of the low hz is present. Unfortunately, nothing 'appears' from
20hz .......maybe about above 30hz start
to hear faintly, and more distinct after 40hz la.  Meaning about doing 10hz
better/lower than some floorstanders.
Looks bad isn't it?

Cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ yahoo.com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 10:20:55
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

UV, Anyone,
What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?

Tony,
What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point or
how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the properties/capabili
ties of the sub and main speaker?

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to hear
very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then it's
acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room that
could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.

cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Vic,

Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What will be
the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

Wide awake
Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@. ..> wrote:
>
> Hi tony,
>
> Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and obtain
good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every room is
still different from each other.
>
> Cheers,
> Vic.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
>
>
> Hi,
>
> How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And isn't
it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly affordable
that most people add sub(s).
> > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down to,
determine if you should go multi-sub.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> >
> > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> >
> > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go for
full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good boom
boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> >
> > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> >
> > HT Nut,
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > >
> > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer manufacturers
and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet installs, here's
what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > >
> > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder bass.
"Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area,"
explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively
long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > >
> > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better performance and
yield flatter response."
> > >
> > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when décor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > >
> > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio. "I'm
rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk people
out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > >
> > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air. The
window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > >
> > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > >
> > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > >
> > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > >
> > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers, we
can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > >
> > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > >
> > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be, use
multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than trying
to hide freestanding units."
> > >
> > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder audio
performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the correct
place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>       Get your new Email address!
> Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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My subwoofer is DIY. Cheap stuff.

But even looking at R205 specs at the lowest crossover setting of 25hz at the
volume of 75db  of drops about 25db at at 70kz. If you have a speaker and flat
frequencies response from 70hz to 20khz wouldn't an increase of 50db at 70hz
affect the quality of the main speakers?
It is worse at 85db because it extend to 200hz.

Tony

(Tonite HT day watching Mission impossible - enjoy the part where they disguise
with the plastic face)



--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@...> wrote:
>
> Who is talking about winning and losing and what you dont get? you say you
have a sub so I want to know what sub you use and why you use if you have
problems. Maybe its not subwoofer giving problem but a setup problem. I use REL
R205 in small room (15x9) and the sound is better than without a sub. My sub
give me better bass and the treble and mid is the same so I dont understand why
you have a problem. No clouration for me and bass boom prblem solved with
position and corner room treatment. If you say what sub and speaker you use and
how you set up your hifi than maybe we know what to do or not to do. I prefer to
use subwoofer but not everybody can. Setting up one sub properly is already
susah so why do you say using more makes the sound better?
>
>
> Lee
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mmm..I am not getting it. I said multiple subs is the way to go. I use a sub
but I said it colours the sound because small room. I said it is  huge trade off
in a small room. Big room like wikin's is a blessing. Ok lah you win. Aiyoh
difficult to discusslah... when we talk about on another topic Truck was asking
what Beatles I owned and now you are also asking what equipment. I guess KLANS
advocates sub under all conditions. You need to own something before talking
about music. You win.
> >
> > Tony.
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use
also? you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to
make the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover
and volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and
no boom and coloration
> > >
> > > smart alex exactlee
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think.
As I explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room
is small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile
to do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
> > > >
> > > > Not smart alec
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot
just use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean
can only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
> > > > >
> > > > > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is
your sub and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz,
is your room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use
it and why you buy if cannot?
> > > > >
> > > > > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder
Everybody can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lee
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news
with the subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way
traffic saje?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > > > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its
how you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lee
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > me to wonder..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding
all sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just me
> > > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i wonder....
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > curious,
> > > > > > > > > jimmy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >       Vic,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest
distance/border) . What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the
20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Wide awake
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Tony,

> > Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> > If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.

Peaks and dips occur in all rooms irrespective of size with mid-bas boom being a
worse case scenario.
Room treatment is a must for all proper listening rooms.
I would still not discount room treatment even with say the Cardas speaker
placement method or the use of a golden ratio room as room modes though I
believe reduced will still exist.

Rgds


________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 6:43:00 PM
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs


Hi Rabin,

Please don't take what I say is the final word. I am just engaging to get a
better understanding of the subject matter.

Going back to your Q. Ok most professional headphones are suppossedly to be 20hz
to 20khz. But now since the distance from the source to ears is about an inch
the large wavelenght  reaches significtly immediately from the source. So that's
the reason why the headphones sound generally flat without dips and peaks.

Unlike in the room, due to the sine wave at certain location you hear the bass
(loud = the peak) and others you hardly get them. But this is subject to room
reflection and standing wave.

Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> > If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
>
>
> Does your answer with regards to HeadPhones affect your asnswer to the above?
>
> Rgds
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:18:11 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> There was an article by one magazine where the editor boasted asking the same
question about the headphone. That's a valid question and I welcome a valid
technical explanation.
>
> You don't need the full wave lenght to hear the frequencies. To hear the full
loudness of the frequencies so long any peak of the sine wave hit your ears will
do. even if you hear 1/4 wave the will be still sound to your ears but it
wouldn't be as loud as the peak of the cycles.
>
> Tony.
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> > If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
> > Does this mean in a concert hall the last row is more accurate than the
first row?
> > Does this mean headphones can't possible recreate any music below 9040 Hz
without it being coloured, given that 9040 Hz has a wavelength of 1.5 inches.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:48:21 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> >
> >
> > Rabin,
> >
> > So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is
approx 6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from
2 ft from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am
sure you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that
you are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.
> >
> > So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz.
(Of course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the
wall also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave
would not give us an ideal 70 db).
> >
> > Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.
> >
> > So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover.  So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > >
> > > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> > > 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> > > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> > > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
> > >
> > > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> > >
> > >
> > > Rabin,
> > >
> > > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
> > >
> > > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically 
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
> > >
> > > And Jimmy,
> > >
> > > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > UV, Anyone,
> > > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> > > >
> > > > Tony,
> > > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO
point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?
> > > >
> > > > Rgds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any
room that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > Vic.
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > > Vic,
> > > >
> > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > >
> > > > Wide awake
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi tony,
> > > > >
> > > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Vic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub?
And isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go
down to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rgds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a
world renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go
though it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather
than to focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share
their thoughts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather
go for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a
good boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HT Nut,
> > > > > > Tony
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers
dramatically reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all
listening levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'â€
'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\
ƒâ€šÃ‚©cor concerns force you into using a less than optimal location for the
first sub.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL
Audio. "I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often
talk people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central
air. The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot,
with little at others.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all
listening locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would
be twice as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall,
with varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different
location enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or
other concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs
that are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs
all running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison
to drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when
you place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip:
for example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along
the back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple
subwoofers, we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling
in the peaks and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the
overall consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard
stud-wall cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size,
and excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding
models.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to
be, use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls
than trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to
hinder audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in
the correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >       Get your new Email address!
> > > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> > > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.
> > > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ah jimmy chai ar,

Thanks for the correction. some buttons turn and some buttons slide. the phase
on my rel slides. but you can call it a switch and the other one knob right?

smart alec answer.

:-)




--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@...> wrote:
>
> ah lee ar,
> there is another "button" for phase... i notice some can even
> turn one.
>
> trying to be smart,
> jimmy
>
>
> --- On Mon, 12/7/09, leesjammies <leesjammies@...> wrote:
>
> From: leesjammies <leesjammies@...>
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 12:48 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use
also? you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to
make the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover
and volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and
no boom and coloration
>
>
>
> smart alex exactlee
>
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As I
explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
>
> >
>
> > Not smart alec
>
> > Tony
>
> >
>
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ > wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just
use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can
only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
>
> > >
>
> > > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your
sub and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is
your room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it
and why you buy if cannot?
>
> > >
>
> > > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody
can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
>
> > >
>
> > > Lee
>
> > >
>
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with
the subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic
saje?
>
> > > >
>
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ > wrote:
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > > I agree with Jimmy,
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
>
> > > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how
you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot! !! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > > Lee
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > >
>
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
>
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > me to wonder..
>
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all
sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
>
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > Just me
>
> > > > > > Tony
>
> > > > > >
>
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > i wonder....
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
>
> > > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
>
> > > > > > > (i meant musically... )
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
>
> > > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
>
> > > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
>
> > > > > > > the physics of sound?
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > curious,
>
> > > > > > > jimmy
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
>
> > > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
>
> > > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
>
> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >       Vic,
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) .
What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > Wide awake
>
> > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > Tony
>
> > > > >
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

UV,

Yes it does look bad until you realise that your multi subs are not so much
about the lows but about what they do to the modes in your room. I would think
plotting your room with one sub as compared to two or more or all the subs will
show the difference on paper i.e much less peaks and dips.

Rgds



________________________________
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:30:48 PM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs


Hi Rabin,

Actually, if i used one of those test cds for ICE, that provide definite track
no, and type of hz.......... then only can
i find if any of the low hz is present. Unfortunately, nothing 'appears' from
20hz .......maybe about above 30hz start
to hear faintly, and more distinct after 40hz la.  Meaning about doing 10hz
better/lower than some floorstanders.
Looks bad isn't it?

Cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ yahoo.com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 10:20:55
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

UV, Anyone,
What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?

Tony,
What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point or
how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the properties/capabili
ties of the sub and main speaker?

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to hear
very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then it's
acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room that
could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.

cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Vic,

Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What will be
the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

Wide awake
Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@. ..> wrote:
>
> Hi tony,
>
> Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and obtain
good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every room is
still different from each other.
>
> Cheers,
> Vic.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
>
>
> Hi,
>
> How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And isn't
it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly affordable
that most people add sub(s).
> > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down to,
determine if you should go multi-sub.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> >
> > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> >
> > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go for
full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good boom
boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> >
> > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> >
> > HT Nut,
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > >
> > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer manufacturers
and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet installs, here's
what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > >
> > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder bass.
"Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area,"
explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively
long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > >
> > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better performance and
yield flatter response."
> > >
> > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when décor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > >
> > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio. "I'm
rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk people
out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > >
> > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air. The
window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > >
> > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > >
> > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > >
> > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > >
> > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers, we
can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > >
> > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > >
> > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be, use
multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than trying
to hide freestanding units."
> > >
> > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder audio
performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the correct
place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>       Get your new Email address!
> Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who is talking about winning and losing and what you dont get? you say you have
a sub so I want to know what sub you use and why you use if you have problems.
Maybe its not subwoofer giving problem but a setup problem. I use REL R205 in
small room (15x9) and the sound is better than without a sub. My sub give me
better bass and the treble and mid is the same so I dont understand why you have
a problem. No clouration for me and bass boom prblem solved with position and
corner room treatment. If you say what sub and speaker you use and how you set
up your hifi than maybe we know what to do or not to do. I prefer to use
subwoofer but not everybody can. Setting up one sub properly is already susah so
why do you say using more makes the sound better?


Lee


--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mmm..I am not getting it. I said multiple subs is the way to go. I use a sub
but I said it colours the sound because small room. I said it is  huge trade off
in a small room. Big room like wikin's is a blessing. Ok lah you win. Aiyoh
difficult to discusslah... when we talk about on another topic Truck was asking
what Beatles I owned and now you are also asking what equipment. I guess KLANS
advocates sub under all conditions. You need to own something before talking
about music. You win.
>
> Tony.
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> >
> > What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use
also? you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to
make the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover
and volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and
no boom and coloration
> >
> > smart alex exactlee
> >
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As
I explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
> > >
> > > Not smart alec
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot
just use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean
can only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
> > > >
> > > > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your
sub and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is
your room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it
and why you buy if cannot?
> > > >
> > > > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder
Everybody can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
> > > >
> > > > Lee
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with
the subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic
saje?
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its
how you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > me to wonder..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all
sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just me
> > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i wonder....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > curious,
> > > > > > > > jimmy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >       Vic,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border)
. What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wide awake
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tony
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Rabin,

Please don't take what I say is the final word. I am just engaging to get a
better understanding of the subject matter.

Going back to your Q. Ok most professional headphones are suppossedly to be 20hz
to 20khz. But now since the distance from the source to ears is about an inch
the large wavelenght  reaches significtly immediately from the source. So that's
the reason why the headphones sound generally flat without dips and peaks.

Unlike in the room, due to the sine wave at certain location you hear the bass
(loud = the peak) and others you hardly get them. But this is subject to room
reflection and standing wave.

Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> > If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
>
>
> Does your answer with regards to HeadPhones affect your asnswer to the above?
>
> Rgds
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:18:11 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> There was an article by one magazine where the editor boasted asking the same
question about the headphone. That's a valid question and I welcome a valid
technical explanation.
>
> You don't need the full wave lenght to hear the frequencies. To hear the full
loudness of the frequencies so long any peak of the sine wave hit your ears will
do. even if you hear 1/4 wave the will be still sound to your ears but it
wouldn't be as loud as the peak of the cycles.
>
> Tony.
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> > If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
> > Does this mean in a concert hall the last row is more accurate than the
first row?
> > Does this mean headphones can't possible recreate any music below 9040 Hz
without it being coloured, given that 9040 Hz has a wavelength of 1.5 inches.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:48:21 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> >
> >
> > Rabin,
> >
> > So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is
approx 6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from
2 ft from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am
sure you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that
you are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.
> >
> > So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz.
(Of course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the
wall also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave
would not give us an ideal 70 db).
> >
> > Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.
> >
> > So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover.  So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > >
> > > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> > > 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> > > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> > > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
> > >
> > > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> > >
> > >
> > > Rabin,
> > >
> > > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
> > >
> > > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically 
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
> > >
> > > And Jimmy,
> > >
> > > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > UV, Anyone,
> > > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> > > >
> > > > Tony,
> > > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO
point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?
> > > >
> > > > Rgds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any
room that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > Vic.
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > > Vic,
> > > >
> > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > >
> > > > Wide awake
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi tony,
> > > > >
> > > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Vic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub?
And isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go
down to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rgds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a
world renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go
though it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather
than to focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share
their thoughts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather
go for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a
good boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HT Nut,
> > > > > > Tony
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers
dramatically reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all
listening levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚©cor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL
Audio. "I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often
talk people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central
air. The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot,
with little at others.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all
listening locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would
be twice as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall,
with varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different
location enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or
other concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs
that are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs
all running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison
to drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when
you place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip:
for example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along
the back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple
subwoofers, we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling
in the peaks and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the
overall consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard
stud-wall cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size,
and excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding
models.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to
be, use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls
than trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to
hinder audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in
the correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >       Get your new Email address!
> > > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> > > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.
> > > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

>       Oh you are the Jimmy who wanted to put the mono switch. Did it work?

Thanks for the reply.

>
>
>
> Anyway, where where where I mentioned the words u alleged.  Tony
>
>

Still waiting.

Also one
Tony

Hi,

> Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.


Does your answer with regards to HeadPhones affect your asnswer to the above?

Rgds


________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 5:18:11 PM
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs


Rabin,

There was an article by one magazine where the editor boasted asking the same
question about the headphone. That's a valid question and I welcome a valid
technical explanation.

You don't need the full wave lenght to hear the frequencies. To hear the full
loudness of the frequencies so long any peak of the sine wave hit your ears will
do. even if you hear 1/4 wave the will be still sound to your ears but it
wouldn't be as loud as the peak of the cycles.

Tony.

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
> Does this mean in a concert hall the last row is more accurate than the first
row?
> Does this mean headphones can't possible recreate any music below 9040 Hz
without it being coloured, given that 9040 Hz has a wavelength of 1.5 inches.
>
> Rgds
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:48:21 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is approx
6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from 2 ft
from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am sure
you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that you
are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.
>
> So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz. (Of
course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the wall
also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave would not
give us an ideal 70 db).
>
> Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.
>
> So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover.  So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> > 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
> >
> > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> >
> >
> > Rabin,
> >
> > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
> >
> > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically 
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
> >
> > And Jimmy,
> >
> > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > UV, Anyone,
> > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point
or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > >
> > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room
that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Vic.
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > > Vic,
> > >
> > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > >
> > > Wide awake
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi tony,
> > > >
> > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Vic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And
isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down
to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rgds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go
for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good
boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > > >
> > > > > HT Nut,
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when dÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
'ÃÆ'‚©cor concerns force you into using a
less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio.
"I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk
people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers,
we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be,
use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than
trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder
audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the
correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Get your new Email address!
> > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.
> > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tony,
yes... its me. the kwai lan one.

i still not read it; thus the switch is not installed yet.
(a bit too high tech for a non diyer and electronic noob like me).

seriously... why are you so fuzzy about the mathematics? aren't our ears
the ones supposed to be pleased?

also, how sure are you that your main speakers are not colored? are they
B&W? give this a try: swap caps of different brands to the speakers xover
and listen; i think you might then say bass seems colorless.

lastly, tony... what or the stuff you talk; have been discussed in other forums,
debated over and over again. but i yet come across one that really provide a
solution or a step by step to educate or share knowledge, expertise in how
to select a sub, to tune a sub. what to measure and how... what to take note;
such as room acoustic, etc... perhaps, you would like to start?

thanks.

about to talk lesser,
jimmy

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@...> wrote:

From: Tony <tonyht@...>
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 10:57 PM







 









       Oh you are the Jimmy who wanted to put the mono switch. Did it work?



Anyway, where where where I mentioned the words u alleged.  Tony



Produced in full.

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _



Re: [KLANS] Re: The Mono switch



thanks tony. i will save up your reply to try to

understand it at a later stage.



--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Tony <tonyht@...> wrote:



From: Tony <tonyht@...>

Subject: [KLANS] Re: The Mono switch

To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:55 AM



Hi Jimmy,



I am not a guru but a HT Nut. So you may want to take what I refer here with a

pinch of salt, maybe include a bit of sambal belacan and pickles :). But just

watch the impedance.



"The summing process is done by feeding both signals to one point via a

T-network of resistors, either to ground or to the virtual ground in an op-amp

circuit. It can generally be carried out in any one of four places, namely at

the inputs (before the input buffers), before the volume control, between volume

control and output buffer, or after the output buffer. All of these involve a

compromise - either extra impedance is inserted in the signal path or an extra

buffer stage is needed. In particular, monoing immediately preceding or

following the volume control means losing the accuracy of the potentiometer. The

most acceptable compromise seems to me to do it right after the input selector,

where a well-defined impedance isn't obligatory, although of course it relies on

both channels of the source component having the same output impedance. On the

other hand, this doesn't have any effect on the signal in the normal stereo

mode."



http://www.soton. ac.uk/~apm3/ diyaudio/ Preamp_notes. html



Tony



--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@... > wrote:



>



--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@... > wrote:

>

> wa piah-leh tony...

> how to add mono switch, you say. expensip equipment, also

> you say. now you say i can skip or hit delete. you say all lah.

>  

> why you no say if your system sound better or not with a sub?

>  

> si-bei tulan,

> jimmy

>

>

> --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@...> wrote:

>

>

> From: Tony <tonyht@...>

> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs

> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 9:48 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> Rabin,

>

> So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is approx
6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from 2 ft
from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am sure
you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that you
are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.

>

> So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz. (Of
course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the wall
also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave would not
give us an ideal 70 db).

>

> Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.

>

> So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover. So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.

>

> Tony

>

> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Tony,

> >

> > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g

> > 113Hz happens to be 10'.

> > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".

> > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?

> >

> > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?

> >

> > Rgds

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > From: Tony <tonyht@>

> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM

> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs

> >

> >

> > Rabin,

> >

> > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.

> >

> > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.

> >

> > And Jimmy,

> >

> > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.

> >

> > Tony

> >

> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > UV, Anyone,

> > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?

> > >

> > > Tony,

> > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point
or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?

> > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?

> > >

> > > Rgds

> > >

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>

> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM

> > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

> > >

> > >

> > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people

> > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,

> > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room
that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.

> > >

> > > cheers,

> > > Vic.

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>

> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14

> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

> > >

> > > Vic,

> > >

> > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

> > >

> > > Wide awake

> > > Tony

> > >

> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi tony,

> > > >

> > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small

> > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.

> > > >

> > > > Cheers,

> > > > Vic.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>

> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49

> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And
isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?

> > > >

> > > > Tony

> > > >

> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi,

> > > > >

> > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).

> > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down
to, determine if you should go multi-sub.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rgds

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>

> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM

> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?

> > > > >

> > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go
for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good
boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.

> > > > >

> > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.

> > > > >

> > > > > HT Nut,

> > > > > Tony

> > > > >

> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚©cor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio.
"I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk
people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers,
we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be,
use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than
trying to hide freestanding units."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder
audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the
correct place, your system will perform to its potential.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Get your new Email address!

> > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!

> > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!

> > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.

> > > Hurry before someone else does!

> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Rabin,

Actually, if i used one of those test cds for ICE, that provide definite track
no, and type of hz..........then only can
i find if any of the low hz is present. Unfortunately, nothing 'appears' from
20hz .......maybe about above 30hz start
to hear faintly, and more distinct after 40hz la.  Meaning about doing 10hz
better/lower than some floorstanders.
Looks bad isn't it?

Cheers,
Vic.




________________________________
From: rabin paul <rabindranpaul@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 7, 2009 10:20:55
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs


UV, Anyone,
What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?

Tony,
What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point or
how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the properties/capabili
ties of the sub and main speaker?

Rgds

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@yahoo. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to hear
very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then it's
acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room that
could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.

cheers,
Vic.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

Vic,

Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What will be
the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

Wide awake
Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@. ..> wrote:
>
> Hi tony,
>
> Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and obtain
good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every room is
still different from each other.
>
> Cheers,
> Vic.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
>
>
> Hi,
>
> How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And isn't
it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly affordable
that most people add sub(s).
> > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down to,
determine if you should go multi-sub.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> >
> > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> >
> > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go for
full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good boom
boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> >
> > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> >
> > HT Nut,
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > >
> > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer manufacturers
and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet installs, here's
what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > >
> > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder bass.
"Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area,"
explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively
long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > >
> > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better performance and
yield flatter response."
> > >
> > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when décor concerns
force you into using a less than optimal location for the first sub.
> > >
> > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio. "I'm
rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk people
out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > >
> > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air. The
window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > >
> > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > >
> > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > >
> > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > >
> > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers, we
can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > >
> > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > >
> > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be, use
multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than trying
to hide freestanding units."
> > >
> > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder audio
performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the correct
place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>       Get your new Email address!
> Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
Hurry before someone else does!
http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





       Get your preferred Email name!
Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com.
http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/aa/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rabin,

There was an article by one magazine where the editor boasted asking the same
question about the headphone. That's a valid question and I welcome a valid
technical explanation.

You don't need the full wave lenght to hear the frequencies. To hear the full
loudness of the frequencies so long any peak of the sine wave hit your ears will
do. even if you hear 1/4 wave the will be still sound to your ears but it
wouldn't be as loud as the peak of the cycles.

Tony.

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@...> wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be
allowed to develop in a room?
> If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
> Does this mean in a concert hall the last row is more accurate than the first
row?
> Does this mean headphones can't possible recreate any music below 9040 Hz
without it being coloured, given that 9040 Hz has a wavelength of 1.5 inches.
>
> Rgds
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:48:21 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is approx
6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from 2 ft
from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am sure
you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that you
are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.
>
> So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz. (Of
course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the wall
also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave would not
give us an ideal 70 db).
>
> Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.
>
> So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover.  So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> > 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
> >
> > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> >
> >
> > Rabin,
> >
> > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
> >
> > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically 
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
> >
> > And Jimmy,
> >
> > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > UV, Anyone,
> > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point
or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > >
> > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room
that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Vic.
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > > Vic,
> > >
> > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > >
> > > Wide awake
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi tony,
> > > >
> > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Vic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And
isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down
to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rgds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go
for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good
boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > > >
> > > > > HT Nut,
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚©cor concerns force you into using a less than
optimal location for the first sub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio.
"I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk
people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers,
we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be,
use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than
trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder
audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the
correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Get your new Email address!
> > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> > > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
@rocketmail.
> > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Tony,

Are you saying that for bass to be uncoloured the full waveform must be allowed
to develop in a room?
If yes then everything we are all listening to is coloured.
Does this mean in a concert hall the last row is more accurate than the first
row?
Does this mean headphones can't possible recreate any music below 9040 Hz
without it being coloured, given that 9040 Hz has a wavelength of 1.5 inches.

Rgds



________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:48:21 PM
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs


Rabin,

So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is approx 6
feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from 2 ft
from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am sure
you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that you
are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.

So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz. (Of
course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the wall
also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave would not
give us an ideal 70 db).

Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.

So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by increasing
the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts because the XO
is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover.  So you can see
from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial 80hz). So
generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and additional
loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase. That's add
coloration or muddiness to you music.

Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
>
> What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
>
> Rgds
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If you
can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as mentioned in
one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops unwanted
frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with the main..
But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the problem a
subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
>
> I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically 
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
>
> And Jimmy,
>
> propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button or
skip.
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > UV, Anyone,
> > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> >
> > Tony,
> > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point
or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the properties/capabili
ties of the sub and main speaker?
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> >
> > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then it's
acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room
that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Vic.
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> >
> > Vic,
> >
> > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What will
be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> >
> > Wide awake
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi tony,
> > >
> > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and obtain
good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Vic.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And
isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down
to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > >
> > > > Rgds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go
for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good
boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > >
> > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > >
> > > > HT Nut,
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > >
> > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > >
> > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder bass.
"Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area,"
explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively
long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better performance
and yield flatter response."
> > > > >
> > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'©cor concerns force you into using a less than
optimal location for the first sub.
> > > > >
> > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio.
"I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk
people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > >
> > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > > > >
> > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > >
> > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > >
> > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > >
> > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers,
we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > >
> > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > > > >
> > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be,
use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than
trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > >
> > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder
audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the
correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >       Get your new Email address!
> > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
> > > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
> > Get the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted on the new @ymail and
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> > Hurry before someone else does!
> > http://mail. promotions. yahoo.com/ newdomains/ aa/
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mmm..I am not getting it. I said multiple subs is the way to go. I use a sub but
I said it colours the sound because small room. I said it is  huge trade off in
a small room. Big room like wikin's is a blessing. Ok lah you win. Aiyoh
difficult to discusslah... when we talk about on another topic Truck was asking
what Beatles I owned and now you are also asking what equipment. I guess KLANS
advocates sub under all conditions. You need to own something before talking
about music. You win.

Tony.

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@...> wrote:
>
> What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use also?
you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to make
the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover and
volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and no
boom and coloration
>
> smart alex exactlee
>
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> >
> > Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As I
explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
> >
> > Not smart alec
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just
use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can
only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
> > >
> > > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your
sub and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is
your room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it
and why you buy if cannot?
> > >
> > > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody
can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
> > >
> > > Lee
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with
the subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic
saje?
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > > > >
> > > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how
you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > me to wonder..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all
sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just me
> > > > > > Tony
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i wonder....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > curious,
> > > > > > > jimmy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >       Vic,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) .
What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wide awake
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

ah lee ar,
there is another "button" for phase... i notice some can even
turn one.

trying to be smart,
jimmy


--- On Mon, 12/7/09, leesjammies <leesjammies@...> wrote:

From: leesjammies <leesjammies@...>
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 12:48 AM







 









       What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use
also? you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to
make the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover
and volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and
no boom and coloration



smart alex exactlee



--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:

>

> Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As I
explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.

>

> Not smart alec

> Tony

>

> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ > wrote:

> >

> >

> > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just
use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can
only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.

> >

> > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your sub
and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is your
room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it and
why you buy if cannot?

> >

> > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody
can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.

> >

> > Lee

> >

> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with the
subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic saje?

> > >

> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I agree with Jimmy,

> > > >

> > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.

> > > >

> > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.

> > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how
you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot! !! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.

> > > >

> > > > Lee

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > me to wonder..

> > > > >

> > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all
sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?

> > > > >

> > > > > Just me

> > > > > Tony

> > > > >

> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > i wonder....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...

> > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?

> > > > > > (i meant musically... )

> > > > > >

> > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...

> > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you

> > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know

> > > > > > the physics of sound?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > curious,

> > > > > > jimmy

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>

> > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs

> > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com

> > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >       Vic,

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) .
What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wide awake

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tony

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What about your sub? your room, your speaker? you never say what you use also?
you talk abt colouration and abt boom, so why you still use? you wnat to make
the subwoofer work, there two small button behind sub that is for crossover and
volume/gain. usually those who know how to use properly get good sound and no
boom and coloration

smart alex exactlee


--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
> Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As I
explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.
>
> Not smart alec
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just
use measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can
only use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
> >
> > you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your sub
and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is your
room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it and
why you buy if cannot?
> >
> > What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody
can ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with the
subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic saje?
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > > >
> > > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > > >
> > > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how
you set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > > >
> > > > Lee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > me to wonder..
> > > > >
> > > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all
sort of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > > >
> > > > > Just me
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i wonder....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > curious,
> > > > > > jimmy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       Vic,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) .
What will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wide awake
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tony
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Faham...I can even use subwoofer in my kancil which is 5 by 5 I think. As I
explained earlier to Rabin it colours your main speakers sound if the room is
small because getting the boom at the expense of coloration. it is worthwhile to
do it in abig room but in a small room it is a huge trade off.

Not smart alec
Tony

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@...> wrote:
>
>
> Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just use
measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can only
use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.
>
> you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your sub
and main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is your
room at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it and
why you buy if cannot?
>
> What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody can
ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.
>
> Lee
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> >
> > Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with the
subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic saje?
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree with Jimmy,
> > >
> > > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> > >
> > > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how you
set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> > >
> > > Lee
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > me to wonder..
> > > >
> > > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all sort
of things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > > >
> > > > Just me
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > i wonder....
> > > > >
> > > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > > >
> > > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > > the physics of sound?
> > > > >
> > > > > curious,
> > > > > jimmy
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >       Vic,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wide awake
> > > > >
> > > > > Tony
> > >
> >
>

Do you understand what I say abt sub and room size and why you cannot just use
measurement? I think somebody else (wikin) says same thing. doesnt mean can only
use sub if your room is big as qurter or half wave length of 20hz.

you use sub, right? what is your room size and your xover? what is your sub and
main speaker brand, model and spec? if your sub spec can play 30hz, is your room
at least 11.46m or exactly 5.73m(half length). If not why you use it and why you
buy if cannot?

What you're talking about news and sub? Dont make sense brudder Everybody can
ask questions, but waiting for a clever not smart alex one.

Lee

--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
> Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with the
subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic saje?
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Jimmy,
> >
> > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> >
> > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how you
set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot!!! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can  ever use sub and all the sub
manufacturer are bluffing.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > > me to wonder..
> > >
> > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all sort of
things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > >
> > > Just me
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > i wonder....
> > > >
> > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > (i meant musically...)
> > > >
> > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > the physics of sound?
> > > >
> > > > curious,
> > > > jimmy
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Vic,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wide awake
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> >
>

Tony,
I pakai sendiri bikin punya monster speakers. Sekian maklum....

cheers.




________________________________
From: Tony <tonyht@...>
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 2:27:57 PM
Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs

 


Tang,

Banyak jealouslah kat your room. 20ft can play full half cycle of 23hz. Care to
share your speakers specs and your subwoofers's. Also please tell which freq u
crossed. Damn lucky. I am sure many envy your sound if you got the placements
correct. ideal room for a sub.

Tony

-- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, wikin tang <tangwikin@. ..> wrote:
>
> Ok lah Tony, since you have sincere questions let me give you my 2
cents experience too.
> Before, I was much like you too, worrying too much about how can one get 20hz
playback when the room just doesn't accomodate the wavelength.
> After, once I completed and fine tuned my subs, I find it possible to ignore
the theoretical calculation portion.
> My room is 20ft, my speakers are 8 ft from the front wall and I sit in an
equilateral traingle distance.
> When I play back Sheffield Labs test track on 20 hz I can feel it (can't hear
it) as though the Jedi Knight has wavered his palms on me and I'm being
disoriented.
>
> cheers,
> Tang.
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:53:44 PM
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
>
>  
> Tony is asking a lot question because he likes to listen to news with the
subwoofer turned on. :) Commonlah cannot ask questions?. one way traffic saje?
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "leesjammies" <leesjammies@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Jimmy,
> >
> > Tony asks a lot of questions but doesnt say if he likes music.
> >
> > My 2c is you will never find a sub that will fit your room 100%.
> > If the sub works in the room or not isnt to do with room size, its how you
set up the sub so it works in the room. If a sub can go loweest at 40hz,
wavelength is 8.6m/28foot! !! all subwoofer can go lower than that and how many
rooms are 28foot long? then nobody can ever use sub and all the sub manufacturer
are bluffing.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "Tony" <tonyht@> wrote:
> > >
> > > me to wonder..
> > >
> > > Are we interested in music or buying xyz equipments and adding all sort of
things and claim that music has improved? Remember the mono switch?
> > >
> > > Just me
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > i wonder....
> > > >
> > > > comparing with and without sub(s) in the same room...
> > > > will there be a difference? which option will sound better?
> > > > (i meant musically... )
> > > >
> > > > i cant help but to ask you this, tony...
> > > > are you more interested in listening to music or are you
> > > > conducting a research who in this little community know
> > > > the physics of sound?
> > > >
> > > > curious,
> > > > jimmy
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:54 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Vic,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wide awake
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh you are the Jimmy who wanted to put the mono switch. Did it work?

Anyway, where where where I mentioned the words u alleged.  Tony


Produced in full.
___________________________________________________________

Re: [KLANS] Re: The Mono switch

thanks tony. i will save up your reply to try to
understand it at a later stage.

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Tony <tonyht@...> wrote:

From: Tony <tonyht@...>
Subject: [KLANS] Re: The Mono switch
To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:55 AM


Hi Jimmy,


I am not a guru but a HT Nut. So you may want to take what I refer here with a
pinch of salt, maybe include a bit of sambal belacan and pickles :). But just
watch the impedance.



"The summing process is done by feeding both signals to one point via a
T-network of resistors, either to ground or to the virtual ground in an op-amp
circuit. It can generally be carried out in any one of four places, namely at
the inputs (before the input buffers), before the volume control, between volume
control and output buffer, or after the output buffer. All of these involve a
compromise - either extra impedance is inserted in the signal path or an extra
buffer stage is needed. In particular, monoing immediately preceding or
following the volume control means losing the accuracy of the potentiometer. The
most acceptable compromise seems to me to do it right after the input selector,
where a well-defined impedance isn't obligatory, although of course it relies on
both channels of the source component having the same output impedance. On the
other hand, this doesn't have any effect on the signal in the normal stereo
mode."



http://www.soton. ac.uk/~apm3/ diyaudio/ Preamp_notes. html



Tony



--- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@... > wrote:

>


--- In KLANS@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Khoo <jkhoo62@...> wrote:
>
> wa piah-leh tony...
> how to add mono switch, you say. expensip equipment, also
> you say. now you say i can skip or hit delete. you say all lah.
>  
> why you no say if your system sound better or not with a sub?
>  
> si-bei tulan,
> jimmy
>
>
> --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Tony <tonyht@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Tony <tonyht@...>
> Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> To: KLANS@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 9:48 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Rabin,
>
> So in a small room of 10ft. your sitting distance from the speakers is approx
6 feet. Say the speakers is 2 feet from the wall and you are sitting from 2 ft
from the rear wall. Since you are aware of the lenght of a wavelenght I am sure
you would also know the meaning of amplitude and loudness. Considering that you
are sitting 6 ft from the speakers the full half cycle of a wave is 6ft i.e.
about93hz.
>
> So if you set your volume 70 db. You would (hopefully) hear 70db of 93 hz. (Of
course it is not as simple as that because the proximity of speakers to the wall
also increases the bass and room's natural resonance and standing wave would not
give us an ideal 70 db).
>
> Now let's say your speaker is flat to 20hz. The loudness level of 20hz is
different. ( lower or higher depending on the standing wave)but in an ideal room
it is only only 20% peak (for sake of simplicity because it involves complex
calculation) of the half cycle hit your ears.
>
> So a subwoofer can be used to add up the the balance 80% loudness by
increasing the volume and crossing ur xo to 20hz. Howver the problem starts
because the XO is not a brickwall filter but usually a 4th order crossover. So
you can see from here how a 4th order crossover attenuates 40hz and (the crucial
80hz). So generally if you hear your 80hz at 70db you now will be hearing and
additional loudness due to your subwoofer or a dip(lower) if its out of phase.
That's add coloration or muddiness to you music.
>
> Tony
>
> --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Yes I am aware of the size of a wavelength of a particular frequency e.g
> > 113Hz happens to be 10'.
> > 2260 Hz happens to be 6".
> > What if the room happens to be 10ft long also?
> >
> > What has room size got to do XO point or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 12:25:14 PM
> > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi subs
> >
> >
> > Rabin,
> >
> > Are you aware of the size of a wavelenght for a particular frequencies? If
you can answer this then you know why I am talking about 10feet room as
mentioned in one of the post here earlier. And could you show me how XO stops
unwanted frequencies? Because this affects the loudness when it interacts with
the main.. But tunggu ya? Just wanted some discussion. So that we can see the
problem a subwoofer casues for a true audiophile system.
> >
> > I am using a sub but I think it is also coloring the sound. theoretically
YES. So if we can have a discussion here how the sub intereacts besides giving
boom then it would benefit all. Those without technical expertise can share
their experience and those with technical background can discuss and maybe we
can with some kind of conclusion as to what specs we should look for in aspeaker
for a particular room size.
> >
> > And Jimmy,
> >
> > propasal? expensive? where and when? You are free to hit the delete button
or skip.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > UV, Anyone,
> > > What music do you have that extends to below 20Hz or even below 30Hz?
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > > What has room size (the 10ft length you have mentioned) got to do XO point
or how loud @ 20/100 Hz?
> > > Would not XO point and how loud @ 20/100Hz depend on the
properties/capabili ties of the sub and main speaker?
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 8:45:55 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > >
> > > I've no technical details available. Generally speaking I will expect to
hear very little or not at all anything of 20hz! If people
> > > take it as a generally acceptable idea that 20hz is not possible, then
it's acceptable to them and many. There is nothing to argue,
> > > as they won't even give it a thought. And we probably not know of any room
that could handle that amount of 20hz is any at all.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Vic.
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: Tony <tonyht@ymail. com>
> > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2009 16:54:14
> > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > >
> > > Vic,
> > >
> > > Ok. let's debate. in a 10 ft room (the longest distance/border) . What
will be the X over point and how loud will you hear the 20hz vs 100hz?
> > >
> > > Wide awake
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, Victor Wong WL <vicwongwl@ ..> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi tony,
> > > >
> > > > Open to debate. If one could work around the given constraints, and
obtain good results then it's worth the while. Be it small
> > > > room, big room. Not a hard and fast rule about the x over point, every
room is still different from each other.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Vic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 20:14:49
> > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > How small or big the room should be before it can fit multiple sub? And
isn't it most sub meant for small room crossed at 30hz (+ - 5hz)?
> > > >
> > > > Tony
> > > >
> > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, rabin paul <rabindranpaul@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Its because real full range speakers (20Hz-20KHz) are not exactly
affordable that most people add sub(s).
> > > > > The size of the room and how low the main speakers and/or sub go down
to, determine if you should go multi-sub.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rgds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: Tony <tonyht@>
> > > > > To: KLANS@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 5:00:18 PM
> > > > > Subject: [KLANS] Re: multi suibs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read a research paper on multi subs by an ex chief engineer of a world
renowned loudspeaker long time ago. He thinks multi sub is the way to go though
it appears more to spread the frequencies through out the room rather than to
focus on the sweet spot. Anyone here having multi sub and care to share their
thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some reservation for using multi sub or even sub but rather go
for full range speakers. Yet, I am using sub because of HT. Nothing like a good
boom boom boom. But that's not correct for High end music.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul - would appreciate if you could post the link.
> > > > >
> > > > > HT Nut,
> > > > > Tony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In KLANS@yahoogroups. com, "paulcarbb" <paulcar@ > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I saw this in S&V and immediately thought of Vic!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Our custom Installer John Sciacca reached out to subwoofer
manufacturers and asked their tips for getting the most bass out of discreet
installs, here's what they had to say about using multiple subs:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Contrary to what you might think, it's not about getting louder
bass. "Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating
area," explained THX's John Dahl. "A secondary effect is to help reduce the
excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Eric Harper (Sunfire) noted, "Multiple subs provide better
performance and yield flatter response."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Al Baron (Polk) added that having "two or more woofers dramatically
reduces standing waves as well as providing better bass at all listening
levels." The bass benefits can be especially true when
dÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚©cor concerns force you into using a less than
optimal location for the first sub.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most vocal multiple-sub advocate was Carl Kennedy from JL Audio.
"I'm rabid about using a pair of subs at a minimum. In fact, I'll often talk
people out of using a sub at all until they can afford to get two."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He used a terrific analogy of an A/C window unit versus central air.
The window unit (single sub) will deliver blasts of cool air at one spot, with
little at others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When it comes to bass, the goal is smooth and even at all listening
locations. But if placing one sub is tricky, you might think two would be twice
as hard. Harper recommended "positions on the front wall and sidewall, with
varying distances from room corners to reduce probability of compounding
response problems."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Velodyne's Joe Finn commented, "A second sub in a different location
enhances the odds of getting great bass, [especially with] in-wall or other
concealed subs. One caveat: Spending the same amount of money on two subs that
are half the price of one good one is unlikely to result in great bass."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "The best solution," Dahl said, "involves placing multiple subs all
running from a single/mono sub output at locations where they work in unison to
drive highamplitude bass modes out of phase. The greatest effect comes when you
place two subs, one each at the opposite ends of a first harmonic modal dip: for
example, one sub halfway along the front wall and the other halfway along the
back wall. This works best in an acoustically symmetrical room."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BG Radia's Chris Brunhaver explained, "By using multiple subwoofers,
we can greatly increase the [room's] modal density, largely filling in the peaks
and dips, giving a smooth, articulate bass sound. This improves the overall
consistency of bass response from seat to seat."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since in-wall subs have to be shallow to fit into standard stud-wall
cavities, they generally have limits on enclosure volume, woofer size, and
excursion. In turn, their output is limited compared with freestanding models.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "As such," Brunhaver said, "to get the output where it needs to be,
use multiple subs. Thankfully, it's much easier to use multiple in-walls than
trying to hide freestanding units."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flabby, bloated, boomy, or anemicsounding bass does a lot to hinder
audio performance. By choosing the right sub(s) and putting it (them) in the
correct place, your system will perform to its potential.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Get your new Email address!
> > > > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else does!
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