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Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:38:14 -0000
To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
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From: "buffalome90210" <buffalome90210@...>
Subject: Re: About my post re split forms and controls disappearing
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=256966228; y=EhzPN0DSRvUWuxmzklvR_V-lX-H5Yxz158tbjGT5RtaOEAPrrky1_fE
X-Yahoo-Profile: buffalome90210
To ALL involved in this conversation,
I see ALL sides!
Yes Jesse I agree that Access does indeed transcend other development tools=
in it's intuitive assists to developers needs....No Question on that front=
.
In regard to the above statement, I do wish someone would give me a link to=
the documentation that explains the effect of vanishing controls. I would =
be interested to see the wording.
I guess my assessment is that what we are discussing is what each of our op=
inions is regarding how "WE Each would handle the given scenario of NO RETU=
RNED RECORDS".
I can see pros and cons to all, though I tend to lean towards Bill and Not =
Uncle John.
It appears that we may need to conclude by agreeing to disagree?
Terence
PS In any event, WHAT A WILD and PASSIONATE discussion !:)
--- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Mosca" <wrmosca@...> =
wrote:
>
> John
>=20
>=20=20
>=20
> I did create a form just for testing. Not that I doubted you...I just wan=
ted to
> see it happen. I think it's counter-intuitive (at least as far as my intu=
ition
> goes <g>). I'd rather see the controls, but have them locked and maybe a =
warning
> pop up when the filter is applied and returns no records...just like I do=
with
> my reports that return no records. I let the user know why the report is =
not
> going to open instead of just showing the #error# junk.
>=20
>=20=20
>=20
> I'm afraid such a feature would make me spend more useless time assuring =
my
> users that the application is indeed not broken. They do tend to panic ov=
er the
> littlest things because they are caregivers first and computer users seco=
nd.
>=20
>=20=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Bill=20
>=20
>=20=20
>=20
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Viesca=
s
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:14 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and control=
s
> disappearing
>=20
>=20=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Bill-
>=20
> Do this in Northwind:
>=20
> 1) Start a new form.
>=20
> 2) Set the Record Source to:
>=20
> SELECT * FROM Customers WHERE 1 =3D 0
>=20
> 3) Add a few controls
>=20
> 4) Set Allow Additions =3D No
>=20
> 5) Switch to Form view
>=20
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill Mo=
sca
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:59 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and control=
s
> disappearing
>=20
> John
>=20
> I've never seen that before. I guess because I've built forms that don't
> fall
> under those specs. Interesting to say the least. I would have thought you
> would
> see the controls but they would be locked. It seems funny to just blank o=
ut
> the
> entire form.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Bill=20
>=20
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of John Vi=
escas
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:51 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and control=
s
> disappearing
>=20
> Bill-
>=20
> If the filter causes the form to return no rows, and the form does not al=
low
> new records (either because Allow Additions is False or the recordset is =
not
> updatable), the form goes blank. It's been that way forever.
>=20
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill Mo=
sca
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:27 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and control=
s
> disappearing
>=20
> John
>=20
> Why would filtering cause controls to vanish? I don't understand this one=
.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Bill=20
>=20
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of John
> Viescas
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:10 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and control=
s
> disappearing
>=20
> Terence-
>=20
> Sorry, but that's the way Access has always worked. When you filter a for=
m
> that cannot add records so that it has no records, all the controls
> disappear. It's a "feature," not a bug.
>=20
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> buffalome90210
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:57 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> Subject: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>=20
> I thought I would explain the business purpose this form achieves, becaus=
e
> its purpose has a generic fundamental use to all. and thought I have not
> attempted to duplicate the error in a small test form which lack all the
> other stuff in my form, i am pretty sure it can be duplicated.
>=20
> 1 Create 2 tables
>=20
> table one will contain two fields Name & Date, we will call it table "GOO=
D"
> We will use this table and add to it entries of when people are GOOD !
>=20
> Hence a person gets added to the table, their name and the date they are
> good.
>=20
> Table 2 has one field ...a Name of people...these are the people That we =
can
> choose from to add them to the GOOD table, we will call this table the NA=
ME
> table.
>=20
> Now we create a split form. The top has a listbox displaying all the
> DISTINCT DATES in the GOOD table. The second listbox displays all the
> POTENTIAL names from the NAME table. NOTICE that the difficulty is that w=
e
> MUST make the listbox for names connect to the NAME table, If we connect =
the
> NAME/listbox to only the GOOD table, the result would be that only names
> show which already exits in the GOOD table. Hence the listbox in that
> scenario will only show names that have at some point been added to the G=
OOD
> table. Someone like "johnny", who is bad would never show up in the GOOD
> table, and therefore never show in the NAME/listbox
>=20
> BUT I wanted the listbox to display all names GOOD and Bad, so the
> NAME/listbox depicts ALL the Names of the NAME TABLE and a click on the n=
ame
> in the NAME listbox should cause the dataportion in the bottom to show al=
l
> the Dates that JOHNNY" was good.
>=20
> Now IF Johnny was NEVER GOOD, The Name/Listbox would show His name, But w=
hen
> clicked, the database has NO entry for Johnny in the GOOD Table, hence th=
e
> dataportion should display NO Records.
>=20
> BUT Instead, when that situation occurs, The Dataportion goes blank, NO
> Column Header no nothing, The TOP Form portion, BOTH Listboxes will also
> DISSAPEAR.
>=20
> Now if you toggle the filtered button at the bottom of the datasheet, the
> form and dataportion gets restored.
>=20
> BUT I REALLY don't think the top form controls aught to vanish ?
>=20
> Terence
>=20
> --- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> , "buffalome90210"
> <buffalome90210@> wrote:
> >
> > oh cantare monami=20
> >=20
> > Hi Bill !....... pretending I'm John :)
> >=20
> > NO NO NO....the weirdness is the the cONTROLS on the top portion , The
> Form Portion, THE listboxes themselves vanish into thin air.
> >=20
> > THE ENTIRE form on top, all controls, textboxes, listboxes, labels,
> headers, button......................VANISHES
> >=20
> > regarding the truefalse thingy opposed to yes no.....The NO worked but =
the
> yes did not,
> >=20
> > Now let me go back to true false and give that a whirl, as I said earli=
er,
> For production I have chosen a different technique, so this is academic, =
BUT
> its still very odd.
> >=20
> > Terence
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill Mosca" <wrmosc=
a@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Terence
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > 1. You should be using Me.FilterOn False . The options are
> True/False
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > And when you turn a filter on after it being off I'm pretty sure you
> have to
> > > requery to refresh the recordset.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > 2. Are you saying not all of the fields in the bottom are showing?
> They
> > > should all show unless you specifically hide them.
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Regards,=20
> > >=20
> > > Bill Mosca,=20
> > >=20
> > > MS Access MVP
> > >=20
> > > <http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Bill.Mosca>
> > > http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Bill.Mosca=20
> > >=20
> > > That'll do IT <http://www.thatlldoit.com/> http://thatlldoit.com
> > >=20
> > > Founder, MS_Access_Professionals
> > >=20
> > > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MS_Access_Professionals>
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MS_Access_Professionals
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> > > [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> buffalome90210
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:00 AM
> > > To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>=20
> > > Subject: [MS_AccessPros] About my post re split forms and controls
> dissapearing
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > I have been playiong with them a bit, and reading about somne of the
> mysterious
> > > quirks.
> > >=20
> > > I have gotten around all the issues I had/have so nothing is eminant.
> > >=20
> > > The two questions I have remaining are:
> > >=20
> > > 1. I was able to toggle (programatically) the filter off via Me.filte=
r
> > > NO.....But have not been able to re-0establish the filter....Turn it
> back on, OR
> > > rest the entire form to its load state....any Ideas.
> > >=20
> > > 2. The strange manifestation I saw on the split form, I ralize and
> accept that
> > > their are quirks, and that my filters may be a bit odd...BUT, I still
> don't
> > > understand, not accept, that a filtered Split form should have the
> ability to
> > > make the controls in the form portion "NON Visible" ?...That I fail t=
o
> > > understand..how..why..under any circumstances it should occur.
> > >=20
> > > Terence
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>=20
> ------------------------------------
>=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=20
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>=20
> ------------------------------------
>=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=20
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>=20
> ------------------------------------
>=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I have been playiong with them a bit, and reading about somne of the mysterious quirks. I have gotten around all the issues I had/have so nothing is eminant. ...
Hi Terence, Whenever I have a form that is acting in an unusual fashion I make sure the form itself is not corrupted. To fix a corrupted form is usually very...
Terence 1. You should be using Me.FilterOn False . The options are True/False And when you turn a filter on after it being off I'm pretty sure you have...
oh cantare monami Hi Bill !....... pretending I'm John :) NO NO NO....the weirdness is the the cONTROLS on the top portion , The Form Portion, THE listboxes...
I thought I would explain the business purpose this form achieves, because its purpose has a generic fundamental use to all. and thought I have not attempted...
Terence You have a terrible accent. :O) At first I thought you were writing in Italian. Cantare means "to sing", but looking at the rest, I figured it was...
Terence- Sorry, but that's the way Access has always worked. When you filter a form that cannot add records so that it has no records, all the controls ...
Oh WOW! I just learned something totally and completely new! I thought the disappearing controls were a bug and have gone way out of my way to get around this...
Bill- If the filter causes the form to return no rows, and the form does not allow new records (either because Allow Additions is False or the recordset is not...
John I've never seen that before. I guess because I've built forms that don't fall under those specs. Interesting to say the least. I would have thought you...
Terence- As long as the form's recordset is updatable, yes. But maybe you don't want users to be able to actually add a record. If the controls are only to ...
TY Uncle V.....I will however be interested to see the posts which may (or may not) go between you and Bill regarding this so called "feature"........ I...
Terrence, If I can weigh in seriously here, I agree that it is odd for a developers tool (Access) to provide "features" like this as many development ...
Terence- I don't think it's inappropriate at all. If you open a form whose recordset returns no records and the form can't add records, why display any...
Bill- Do this in Northwind: 1) Start a new form. 2) Set the Record Source to: SELECT * FROM Customers WHERE 1 = 0 3) Add a few controls 4) Set Allow Additions...
John I did create a form just for testing. Not that I doubted you...I just wanted to see it happen. I think it's counter-intuitive (at least as far as my...
To ALL involved in this conversation, I see ALL sides! Yes Jesse I agree that Access does indeed transcend other development tools in it's intuitive assists to...
Hi Terence, Well you now know what happens when you try to display no records with AllowAdditions = No. It is quite logical in the case of Continuous Forms...
Hi Clive, WOW, my head is spinning, I did not anticipate that my simple little question would have ensighted the discussion which occured. I see ALL sides of...
Terence A truly admirable and professional approach! Asking the client what he expects the application to do is what your job is all about. After all, this is...
Terence- First, if you're leaning toward Bill, what would you expect the form to do if you filter it to no records and you can't add a record? Bill suggests...
Bill. We could look at it this way: In a bound form, the detail section comes into play only if there is at least one displayable record. If there is none, not...
A.D. Thanks for your input in this. Your detailed diagnosis is excellent. John's suggestion sounds like a very good one to me. A bit more overhead, but a more...
Bill- If no records can be displayed, as A.D. noted, the Detail section basically does not exist. NO controls appear - bound or unbound, linked or unlinked. ...
Thanks, John. Regards, Bill From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Viescas Sent:...
Bill, You are most welcome! You wished to explore the behavior of un-anchored labels. As stated in my previous post, the canvas of detail section itself...
Very good suggestions, A.D. This thread has proven quite educational and certainly given us all something to think about when designing user-friendly forms. ...
You are most welcome Bill! Quite often, access developers have to deal with the phenomenon in question. It is nice that various aspects stand covered under the...
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