Terence-

First, if you're leaning toward Bill, what would you expect the form to do
if you filter it to no records and you can't add a record? Bill suggests it
should show the controls blank but locked. But the developer might have
chosen locked properties for some but not all of the controls. If the form
returns to a state where it does have records again, how would Access
determine which controls to unlock?

As for no records, whenever I have a situation where returning no rows would
be confusing or otherwise cause a problem, I check first in code. In your
case, I think a simple DLookup would suffice. If DLookup returns a Null
when using the filter, tell the user and reject applying the filter.

John Viescas, author
Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
Building Microsoft Access Applications
Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
http://www.viescas.com/
(Paris, France)


-----Original Message-----
From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buffalome90210
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 12:38 AM
To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
disappearing

To ALL involved in this conversation,

I see ALL sides!

Yes Jesse I agree that Access does indeed transcend other development tools
in it's intuitive assists to developers needs....No Question on that front.

In regard to the above statement, I do wish someone would give me a link to
the documentation that explains the effect of vanishing controls. I would be
interested to see the wording.

I guess my assessment is that what we are discussing is what each of our
opinions is regarding how "WE Each would handle the given scenario of NO
RETURNED RECORDS".

I can see pros and cons to all, though I tend to lean towards Bill and Not
Uncle John.

It appears that we may need to conclude by agreeing to disagree?

Terence

PS In any event, WHAT A WILD and PASSIONATE discussion !:)






--- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Mosca" <wrmosca@...>
wrote:
>
> John
>
>
>
> I did create a form just for testing. Not that I doubted you...I just
wanted to
> see it happen. I think it's counter-intuitive (at least as far as my
intuition
> goes <g>). I'd rather see the controls, but have them locked and maybe a
warning
> pop up when the filter is applied and returns no records...just like I do
with
> my reports that return no records. I let the user know why the report is
not
> going to open instead of just showing the #error# junk.
>
>
>
> I'm afraid such a feature would make me spend more useless time assuring
my
> users that the application is indeed not broken. They do tend to panic
over the
> littlest things because they are caregivers first and computer users
second.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Viescas
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 2:14 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bill-
>
> Do this in Northwind:
>
> 1) Start a new form.
>
> 2) Set the Record Source to:
>
> SELECT * FROM Customers WHERE 1 = 0
>
> 3) Add a few controls
>
> 4) Set Allow Additions = No
>
> 5) Switch to Form view
>
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill
Mosca
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:59 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
> John
>
> I've never seen that before. I guess because I've built forms that don't
> fall
> under those specs. Interesting to say the least. I would have thought you
> would
> see the controls but they would be locked. It seems funny to just blank
out
> the
> entire form.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of John
Viescas
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:51 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
> Bill-
>
> If the filter causes the form to return no rows, and the form does not
allow
> new records (either because Allow Additions is False or the recordset is
not
> updatable), the form goes blank. It's been that way forever.
>
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill
Mosca
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:27 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
> John
>
> Why would filtering cause controls to vanish? I don't understand this one.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of John
> Viescas
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 12:10 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
> Terence-
>
> Sorry, but that's the way Access has always worked. When you filter a form
> that cannot add records so that it has no records, all the controls
> disappear. It's a "feature," not a bug.
>
> John Viescas, author
> Microsoft Office Access 2007 Inside Out
> Building Microsoft Access Applications
> Microsoft Office Access 2003 Inside Out
> SQL Queries for Mere Mortals
> http://www.viescas.com/
> (Paris, France)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> buffalome90210
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 8:57 PM
> To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [MS_AccessPros] Re: About my post re split forms and controls
> disappearing
>
> I thought I would explain the business purpose this form achieves, because
> its purpose has a generic fundamental use to all. and thought I have not
> attempted to duplicate the error in a small test form which lack all the
> other stuff in my form, i am pretty sure it can be duplicated.
>
> 1 Create 2 tables
>
> table one will contain two fields Name & Date, we will call it table
"GOOD"
> We will use this table and add to it entries of when people are GOOD !
>
> Hence a person gets added to the table, their name and the date they are
> good.
>
> Table 2 has one field ...a Name of people...these are the people That we
can
> choose from to add them to the GOOD table, we will call this table the
NAME
> table.
>
> Now we create a split form. The top has a listbox displaying all the
> DISTINCT DATES in the GOOD table. The second listbox displays all the
> POTENTIAL names from the NAME table. NOTICE that the difficulty is that we
> MUST make the listbox for names connect to the NAME table, If we connect
the
> NAME/listbox to only the GOOD table, the result would be that only names
> show which already exits in the GOOD table. Hence the listbox in that
> scenario will only show names that have at some point been added to the
GOOD
> table. Someone like "johnny", who is bad would never show up in the GOOD
> table, and therefore never show in the NAME/listbox
>
> BUT I wanted the listbox to display all names GOOD and Bad, so the
> NAME/listbox depicts ALL the Names of the NAME TABLE and a click on the
name
> in the NAME listbox should cause the dataportion in the bottom to show all
> the Dates that JOHNNY" was good.
>
> Now IF Johnny was NEVER GOOD, The Name/Listbox would show His name, But
when
> clicked, the database has NO entry for Johnny in the GOOD Table, hence the
> dataportion should display NO Records.
>
> BUT Instead, when that situation occurs, The Dataportion goes blank, NO
> Column Header no nothing, The TOP Form portion, BOTH Listboxes will also
> DISSAPEAR.
>
> Now if you toggle the filtered button at the bottom of the datasheet, the
> form and dataportion gets restored.
>
> BUT I REALLY don't think the top form controls aught to vanish ?
>
> Terence
>
> --- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> , "buffalome90210"
> <buffalome90210@> wrote:
> >
> > oh cantare monami
> >
> > Hi Bill !....... pretending I'm John :)
> >
> > NO NO NO....the weirdness is the the cONTROLS on the top portion , The
> Form Portion, THE listboxes themselves vanish into thin air.
> >
> > THE ENTIRE form on top, all controls, textboxes, listboxes, labels,
> headers, button......................VANISHES
> >
> > regarding the truefalse thingy opposed to yes no.....The NO worked but
the
> yes did not,
> >
> > Now let me go back to true false and give that a whirl, as I said
earlier,
> For production I have chosen a different technique, so this is academic,
BUT
> its still very odd.
> >
> > Terence
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> , "Bill Mosca"
<wrmosca@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Terence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1. You should be using Me.FilterOn False . The options are
> True/False
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And when you turn a filter on after it being off I'm pretty sure you
> have to
> > > requery to refresh the recordset.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2. Are you saying not all of the fields in the bottom are showing?
> They
> > > should all show unless you specifically hide them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Bill Mosca,
> > >
> > > MS Access MVP
> > >
> > > <http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Bill.Mosca>
> > > http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Bill.Mosca
> > >
> > > That'll do IT <http://www.thatlldoit.com/> http://thatlldoit.com
> > >
> > > Founder, MS_Access_Professionals
> > >
> > > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MS_Access_Professionals>
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MS_Access_Professionals
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> buffalome90210
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:00 AM
> > > To: MS_Access_Professionals@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:MS_Access_Professionals%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [MS_AccessPros] About my post re split forms and controls
> dissapearing
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I have been playiong with them a bit, and reading about somne of the
> mysterious
> > > quirks.
> > >
> > > I have gotten around all the issues I had/have so nothing is eminant.
> > >
> > > The two questions I have remaining are:
> > >
> > > 1. I was able to toggle (programatically) the filter off via Me.filter
> > > NO.....But have not been able to re-0establish the filter....Turn it
> back on, OR
> > > rest the entire form to its load state....any Ideas.
> > >
> > > 2. The strange manifestation I saw on the split form, I ralize and
> accept that
> > > their are quirks, and that my filters may be a bit odd...BUT, I still
> don't
> > > understand, not accept, that a filtered Split form should have the
> ability to
> > > make the controls in the form portion "NON Visible" ?...That I fail to
> > > understand..how..why..under any circumstances it should occur.
> > >
> > > Terence
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
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