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FS : KM 28-75 F/2.8 D and 17-35 F/2.8-4.0 D   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #138625 of 147677 |
Re: [PRICE DROP] --- FS : KM 28-75 F/2.8 D and 17-35 F/2.8-4.0 D

I may have posted some earlier thoughts on Minolta, Leica and Zeiss.
Most comments about Minolta glass refer to lenses made pre-mid-1990s,
because they changed their philosophy considerably once the Malaysian
plant was opened. When Minolta made all their own glass, from the mix
to the coating, they did something which no other maker did at the
time (mid-1970s to the end of the first generation of AF lenses). They
used the lens coatings to balance colour and contrast, so that an
entire set of lenses from 7.5mm to 1600mm (originally) would need no
CC filters if tested critically on a single roll of film.

This involved allowing some lenses to have less effective
multicoating, in order to keep their contrast lower than would have
been theoretically possible. Generally, simpler lenses with fewer air
to glass surfaces were given single and double coatings on some
surfaces and not the total of up to 9 layers which became possible in
the 1980s. Zooms were given more efficient coatings to combat their
naturally lower contrast. All the coatings were balanced, with the
glass types, to give a neutrally matched colour transmission
(Minolta's polariser and ND filters were also extremely accurate). We
used Minolta colour measurement systems in the mid-1980s, and again in
the early 1990s, to check lenses and filters and found the consistency
exceptional.

Leica, for whom Minolta made lenses, elements, prisms and focusing
screens (nothing to do with the G series which came long after Leica
and Minolta ceased to work together) had never attempted to match
colour or contrast and you will find radical differences between (for
example) a six-element and seven-element Summicron. What they
attempted to do was balance microcontrast and overall contrast
(boosting MTF figure finer than 60 cycles at the expense of the
important 10-30 cycles range). They also taught this concept to
Minolta. It tends to produce a 'liquid, three-dimensional' look
because overall tones are quite soft, but textures and surfaces are
rendered far better.

Zeiss went in a different direction and picked a cutoff point for MTF,
using equipment able to measure up to 400 cycles per mm (beyond the
resolving power of any film, and theoretically unusable). They would
decide that a particular range of lenses should maintain 60 per cent
contrast at 80 cycles - or whatever - and then work like hell on the
glass, the design, the coatings to achieve this target and never fail.
They also tested each individual lens (in Germany) and retained a
certificate against its serial number stating the actual figure for
that one lens. Then, if returned for repair, they could instantly spot
whether elements had become decentered. I do not believe the
Kyocera-Zeiss team ever did this! All Hasselblad lenses were tested.
Any lens which fell short was sent back for reassembly, or in the
worst case, scrapped. The cycles per mm depended on focal length -
tele lenses were not expected to reach the same figure as standard or
macro lenses. Since retrofocus lenses naturally have extremely high
central resolution, their focus with these was maintaining the edge MTF.

In pursuit of this, Zeiss actually ended up with rather variable
contrast, usually as high as the design would permit, and used the T*
coating thoroughly. They did not get absolutely consistent colour
transmission because they used the coating to maximimise certified
performance (chart tests) and not to balance colour. But the coating
was so effective they often got high microcontrast plus high overall
contrast, when Leitz was claiming the two functions were traded
against each other.

Since the mid-1990s all you have is the heritage of these policies.
Minolta started using outside sources, set up new factories,
introduced cheap kit lenses which don't entirely match the range;
Leica started trying to copy Zeiss; Hasselblad discarded Zeiss as sole
supplier and went to Fuji, whose 9-layer Electron Beam (Super EBC) is
probably the best around along with Pentax and Zeiss. Digital has made
it all different, forcing designers to multicoat even the rear
surfaces and the glued surfaces of lenses, whether or not this changes
the contrast and colour. Avoiding digital sensor flare is now the big
challenge. Ideas like 'liquid colour' and 'enhanced textural
rendering' are no longer relevant (actually such lenses do worse on
digital, as Leica owners have found, and would have REALLY found if
Leica had dared to use an AA filter).

Canon and Nikon, like Sigma and Tamron, had entirely different targets
in mind with lens design (like 'can we make this specification?') and
generally their lenses are a real mixture of different qualities.
Nikon's six blade iris, like Pentax's five-blader, gave their 1970s
lenses that wiry, enhanced sharpness look - precisely what Minolta
avoided, if you've ever seen the wonderful circular iris of the 1966
100mm f2 for example, or the extreme of the manual SLR lenses - can't
remember how many blades the 135mm f4.5 had, but it's in the teens.

Consequently Canon owners have no real idea why Minolta owners get so
deeply into lens quality (Canon lenses don't have a 'look') while
Nikon and Pentax owners often really didn't like the softer,
flare-prone Minolta glass. Leica owners of course have always liked
Minolta glass, Minolta copied Leica from 1958 onwards and won Leica
subcontracting work because they did it so well. Leica in return got
the Minolta M-mount rangefinder system, previewed in 1958, shelved for
ever. Minolta got Leica input into the design of the SR reflex series.

But in a way it is all irrelevant now as lenses are not made the same
way, or to the same targets, today. If you collect vintage Minolta
glass - 1970-80s MD/MC, 1985-1990 AF (particularly) you can enjoy the
colour and contrast matching which made Minolta unrivalled for
audio-visual production (the XE-1 was one of the few camera designed
to space exposures perfectly to fit a Wess mount without needing pin
registration - if you own one, check it out). It also made Minolta
first choice for film-stills shooting and stop-frame animation - no
need to test each lens and carefully fit a Wratten CC/LB filter pack
and apply an exposure compensation (etc).

One thing I'll bet - when my CZ 16-80 arrives, it will be very
different in contrast, microcontrast and colour transmission to my Min
24-105mm, which it will replace in daily use.

David




Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:01 pm

daveinkelso
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Forward
Message #138625 of 147677 |
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Chuck, I believe we'd differed a bit on the question of CZ glass in the past. I can only say that different eyes see different things. Personally, I have...
Jack Casner
jackinkc
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Mar 27, 2007
6:35 pm

I may have posted some earlier thoughts on Minolta, Leica and Zeiss. Most comments about Minolta glass refer to lenses made pre-mid-1990s, because they changed...
daveinkelso
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2007
9:02 pm

I may have posted some earlier thoughts on Minolta, Leica and Zeiss. Most comments about Minolta glass refer to lenses made pre-mid-1990s, because they changed...
daveinkelso
Offline Send Email
Mar 27, 2007
9:04 pm

I may have posted some earlier thoughts on Minolta, Leica and Zeiss. Most comments about Minolta glass refer to lenses made pre-mid-1990s, because they changed...
daveinkelso
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Mar 27, 2007
9:06 pm

Anyone got any idea how my replying via a web post got THREE COPIES posted in a row? David...
daveinkelso
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Mar 28, 2007
8:33 am

... David, I'm noticing the same thing in other forums. Some posts have duplicate and triplicate copies. It must be a Yahoo thing. I've been getting...
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
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Mar 28, 2007
2:16 pm

... Zeiss. I remember reading a post (here or dpreview) that expressed some of these thoughts, but you've expanded on them greatly - thanks ! ... So David,...
ctgardener
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Mar 28, 2007
12:29 pm

... Ah, great minds think alike. My 16-80 arrives tomorrow to compiment my 100-300APO and 28/2. That's the same set I was working towards. Ed...
Ed Rice
edriceus
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Mar 28, 2007
2:13 pm

... Some months back, I sold the 28-75/2.8 I had after buying a 35/2 figuring I could use the 28-85/3.5-4.5 for general purpose and the 35/2 for low light....
ctgardener
Online Now Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
3:00 pm

... FWIW, I loved my KM 28-75mm f/2.8 so much that I bought the Tamron version of it to use on my Nikon D200. Too bad it won't fit my Film 7. Oh well, at least...
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
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Mar 28, 2007
3:32 pm

... Isn't a stabilized f/2.8 midrange zoom for $400 great ??!?!?!?!? Oh ... wait ... (Sorry, couldn't resist ;) - Dennis...
ctgardener
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Mar 28, 2007
5:29 pm

... LOL. OK....OK....you got me. You're forgiven ;>) On the flip side, I got it for only $250... BTW, I firmly believe that market pressures will force...
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
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Mar 28, 2007
5:39 pm

... Nice ! And on the other flip side, I wouldn't let in-body IS sway me too much in deciding on a system ... I could happily live with one system for nature...
ctgardener
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Mar 28, 2007
6:00 pm

... Well, let's just say that the grass is a different shade of green on this side of the fence. Two words: Back-Focus! The D200 is a remarkable camera....
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
6:38 pm

... Well, let's just say that the grass is a different shade of green on this side of the fence. Two words: Back-Focus! The D200 is a remarkable camera....
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
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Mar 28, 2007
6:40 pm

... Hey Viken, Didn't you try the Tokina version of this lens? I prefer Tokina glasses better... Pako...
Pako Dominguez
pakodominguez
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Mar 28, 2007
6:56 pm

... If I remember right, the Tokina wasn't released until recently (less than a month ago?). I hadn't even heard that Tokina was making one, but I knew that...
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
7:07 pm

... Well, let's just say that the grass is a different shade of green on this side of the fence. Two words: Back-Focus! The D200 is a remarkable camera....
Viken Karaguesian
veekoman
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Mar 28, 2007
7:00 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
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Mar 28, 2007
9:39 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
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Mar 28, 2007
9:47 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
9:49 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
9:55 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
10:17 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
10:41 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 28, 2007
11:21 pm

Cool!!! So who is buying my 28-75 now? ... Rajan...
rajan1106
Offline Send Email
Mar 29, 2007
1:19 am

I would hope folks see Yahoo is having a multi-posting issue on this and other groups. I am getting bombarded by multiple listings 20+ of the same message.... ...
Ken Wales
waleskeg
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Mar 29, 2007
3:35 am

I would hope folks see Yahoo is having a multi-posting issue on this and other groups. I am getting bombarded by multiple listings 20+ of the same message.... ...
Ken Wales
waleskeg
Offline Send Email
Mar 29, 2007
3:37 am

I would hope folks see Yahoo is having a multi-posting issue on this and other groups. I am getting bombarded by multiple listings 20+ of the same message.... ...
Ken Wales
waleskeg
Offline Send Email
Mar 29, 2007
3:44 am

thankfully, they are upgrading their systems and this is one of the benefits of the upgrade. you get more for your money ... -- ... regards, mehrdad [Non-text...
mehrdad
msadat
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Mar 29, 2007
3:51 am
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