In a message dated 28/04/2002 23:01:46 GMT Daylight Time,
ian.nospam@... writes:


> However, I do have a lot of experience of arguments (!!) and I find
> that they usually begin with a statement which can be interpreted
> differently by different people. With that in mind, I wanted to ask
> you to clarify the sentence above, if that's OK.
>

Ian,
I rarely, if ever argue. I may contend, posit, or question.-:)) My statement
I thought was self explanatory, followed by a request for any information to
the contrary. It seems to me that the 'answers' I have received so far are
simply opinions. welcome as they may be, they do not fulfil the need.

Regards.

Peter


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 28/04/2002 23:00:59 GMT Daylight Time, adam@...
writes:


> that we cannot talk about the efficacy of NLP)
>

And on that we have to agree to disagree-:))


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone,

Good to be here to get to know other members of the group.   I am a
psychotherapist, hypnotherapist and trainer in South Yorkshire.  Most of the
last 22 years of my full time private practise life have been involved with
working on physical and psychological problems with individual clients.
Around 20% is in performance management in the corporate and sports arena.
Approximately 10% is in training others, this training is in the UK, and
abroad.

In the last 3 years my partner and I have throughly enjoyed incorporating
Meridian Therapies into our practise and in training others. We are
accredited trainers and TAT International trainers.  This new field has
opened up some very exciting and rewarding work.

I look forward to being involved in discussion on this group because I love
NLP too :-)

Warmly

Mair
(Mary Llewellyn)
http://members.aol.com/TickhillHealth/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ian

A good concise summary of some of the commoner persuasion techniques
(I think I'll print it out).

Eric

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "iannospam_1" <ian.nospam@t...> wrote:
> How can one become aware of this manipulation? What are the
> > pointers, the typical embedded commands to watch out for on
> programmes like
> > QVC?
> >
>
> I wouldn't over-estimate how much the more esoteric NLP skills are
> used by sales and marketing people, but there are certainly some
> examples of it in use.
>
> NLP is fundamentally about modelling what works and then tweaking it
> to make it better. For that reason, a lot of what you find on tele-
> shopping shows might be just someone "doing what works for them" or
> it might be careful considered application of NLP - the two can look
> very similar, because good salespeople were doing this stuff long
> before Bandler et al codified it.
>
> Some fun things to watch for on teleshopping shows would be:
>
> * presuppositions - "when you are wearing these earrings...."
>
> * ambiguities - "By now, you may be wondering" (say it out loud!!)
>
> * bogus choices - "you may be wondering whether to call now, or in a
> few minutes time" - there's a bonus embedded command in that one
too!
>
> * anchoring - occasionally you'll see someone do something very
> clever, like "you remember that evening you went out and just looked
> fabulous and were the belle of the ball? With these earrings, that
> elegant look is available every day".
>
> You'll also see a lot of application of Cialdini's work, too:
>
> * Social Proof - "hundreds of people have called already"
> * Scarcity - "only a few left"
>
> etc etc. Once you get the idea, they are fun to spot (but no less
> effective, so be careful out there!!)
>
> cheers
>
> Ian

Hi Mary

One of the commonest methods of delivering an embedded command (in my
experience), is to inflect the voice downwards during the command.

e.g.

consider the sentence "I don't know if you will buy this car".

seems a perfectly normal sentence, although, if the "you will buy this
car" portion is soken with a commanding voice tone, inflecting
downwards towards the end, it is an embedded command.

when a question is asked the voice often inflects upwards at the end,
when a statement is made the voice often has no inflection, and when a
command is given, there is often a downwards inflection, According to
NLP.

I Hope THIS H
              E
               L
                P
                 S

Eric

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "Mary Ashley" <mary_ashley@n...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I know only a little of NLP. However I am aware that sales teams
benefit
> greatly from NLP. I dislike covert manipulation for financial greed
and
> gain. Ian spoke of a spoof on QVC. I would presume QVC know all
about and
> use NLP.  How can one become aware of this manipulation? What are
the
> pointers, the typical embedded commands to watch out for on
programmes like
> QVC?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mary Ashley.

Hi Peter,

I thought I'd add my sixpenn'th, to an important question.



Of course the effectiveness of any tool in any endeavour will, to a
greater
or lesser degree, be influenced by the competence of the user. However
to use
that as a reason for not being able, or unwilling to measure
effectiveness is
not productive.

I don't know how much research has been done in this area or where one
may find it. How exactly does noting that practitioners/therapists have
different levels of  competence lead you to believe that someone (I'm
not sure who) is unable or unwilling to measure the effectiveness of
their practice?

Your comparison with psychotherapy is interesting. A similar comparison
could
be drawn with hypnotherapy. However the effectiveness of both as
suggested in
the following suggests that such a comparison is not valid:

If I remember correctly there were studies in the 70's that apparently
demonstrated no significant benefits for people undergoing
psychotherapy. On closer inspection of the results the researchers found
that there were substantial benefits for those with good therapists but
these results were masked by bad results put in by the less competent
therapists. The average showed no benefit.

Hypnosis is supported by more scientific evidence than any other
complementary therapy: (Health Education Authority [1994).

Hypnosis has been around a lot longer than NLP and I imagine there's
been more opportunity to do research and have it published.

22.9% of GPs believe that hypnotherapy should be available in their
surgeries: (BMA 1993)*

There is good evidence from randomised controlled trials that both
hypnosis
and relaxation techniques can reduce anxiety. they are also effective
for
panic disorders and insomnia particularly when integrated into a package
of
cognitive therapy. A systematic review has found that hypnosis enhances
the
effects of cbt for conditions such as phobia, obesity, and anxiety. **
(British Medical Journal 1999)

* I wish I could find them in my locale-:))

** Anxiety is a major feature in bringing about relapse in those who are

addicted.


I could continue for quite some time but I hope that the foregoing makes
the
point that if a procedure is claimed to be effective, it should be able
to
lend itself to objective testing.

I agree wholeheartedly. If I were helping a client I would want to know
that what I was doing was to the clients benefit. That might sound
rather trite but sometimes it's forget that the therapeutic process
(whatever it is) is for the client's benefit, not the other way round.

When you mentioned objective testing I remembered the (in)famous quote
of Lord Kelvin: "If it exists, it can be measured!" I suspect many
readers with reservations about men in white coats, test tubes,
laboratories & clipboards are squirming. How you get to a reasonable
measurement of effectiveness is another matter, hopefully it wont
involve test tubes! By the way, how could any therapeutic procedure be
satifactorily validated for you to use? What's your standard of proof?

You will be aware from your own experience and interests, that the
complexities and fragile condition of those presenting with alcohol
abuse are
sufficiently challenging and difficult to deal with, without risking
treatments that have yet to be objectively assessed.

In the last few issues of Rapport (magazine of the ANLP) there have been
some articles by someone specialising in additive behaviours (resolving
them that is). I'll try and find a reference if you like.

  Regards,

Peter O'Loughlin

  Andy

Hi everyone,
I am on three hypnotherapy e-groups also, and I am hoping to 'meet' a
similar bunch of fascinating people on this e-group also.
My background is teaching, hypnosis and NLP.
I am a compulsive course and workshop participant, and a book-addict.

Warm  Wishes,
--
Gennie Stone   Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire, U.K.
To reply by email:     therapy@...

Hi all, thanks for getting things rolling so quickly.  We're only a
few days old and already have about 50 members which is what I would
call a flying start.  I intend to get this group up to about 200 UK
members within the next 2 months or so.  We already have some
excellent people here.  Soon it will be the biggest and best NLP
forum in the UK.
    If you know anyone else who is really into NLP, send them the
details below:

Homepage
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NLP-UK/

To join send a blank email to:
NLP-UK-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Best,

Don Robertson (moderator)

--- In NLP-UK@y..., peterolo@a... wrote:
> Unfortunately there is no evidence to support their hypothesis that
NLP is
> effective with alcohol, or drug addiction.

Hi Peter,

firstly, let me say that I have little experience with NLP and no
experience at all in a theraputic environment.

However, I do have a lot of experience of arguments (!!) and I find
that they usually begin with a statement which can be interpreted
differently by different people. With that in mind, I wanted to ask
you to clarify the sentence above, if that's OK.

NLP is not a single tool, and indeed many would say its not really
about tools at all. I'd therefore like to hear more specifically the
applications or uses of NLP which you are sceptical about (and I'm
cautious about what to believe about NLP too, so I know where you are
coming from).

For instance, I can't believe that there is anyone who doesn't think
that strong rapport building skills, the ability to generate specific
emotional states in others or the ability to use meta-model
questioning to precisely understand what someone means by what they
say would be helpful in dealing with addictions. Since these are
important parts of NLP, to that extent I would suggest it is self-
evident that good NLP skills would help you to do whatever it is you
already do to help these people.

On the other hand, I can well imagine that there are specific NLP
toolkits (Compulsion Blowout, Phobia Cure, Change Personal History)
which themselves might or might not stand up to scrutiny in such a
demanding environment.

So, to help the debate along, what precisely do YOU mean by NLP?

Ian

How can one become aware of this manipulation? What are the
> pointers, the typical embedded commands to watch out for on
programmes like
> QVC?
>

I wouldn't over-estimate how much the more esoteric NLP skills are
used by sales and marketing people, but there are certainly some
examples of it in use.

NLP is fundamentally about modelling what works and then tweaking it
to make it better. For that reason, a lot of what you find on tele-
shopping shows might be just someone "doing what works for them" or
it might be careful considered application of NLP - the two can look
very similar, because good salespeople were doing this stuff long
before Bandler et al codified it.

Some fun things to watch for on teleshopping shows would be:

* presuppositions - "when you are wearing these earrings...."

* ambiguities - "By now, you may be wondering" (say it out loud!!)

* bogus choices - "you may be wondering whether to call now, or in a
few minutes time" - there's a bonus embedded command in that one too!

* anchoring - occasionally you'll see someone do something very
clever, like "you remember that evening you went out and just looked
fabulous and were the belle of the ball? With these earrings, that
elegant look is available every day".

You'll also see a lot of application of Cialdini's work, too:

* Social Proof - "hundreds of people have called already"
* Scarcity - "only a few left"

etc etc. Once you get the idea, they are fun to spot (but no less
effective, so be careful out there!!)

cheers

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <peterolo@...>
> Of course the effectiveness of any tool in any endeavour will, to a
greater
> or lesser degree, be influenced by the competence of the user. However to
use
> that as a reason for not being able, or unwilling to measure effectiveness
is
> not productive.

Oh I agree entirely. My points are not meant to justify the use of untested
and unverified treatment modalities- I do belief that we need to take a
different approach when looking at the effictiveness of therapies that
involve the use of self as agent of change than we do when say researching
the efficacy of medication. Not saying I have any answers - as a point of
interest, John Grinder makes a call for NLPers to work toward becoming a
legitimate research community in his book Whispering in the Wind.
>
> Your comparison with psychotherapy is interesting. A similar comparison
could
> be drawn with hypnotherapy. However the effectiveness of both as suggested
in
> the following suggests that such a comparison is not valid:

I have to say, I'm not sure how.

> Hypnosis is supported by more scientific evidence than any other
> complementary therapy: (Health Education Authority [1994).
>
> 22.9% of GPs believe that hypnotherapy should be available in their
> surgeries: (BMA 1993)*
>
> There is good evidence from randomised controlled trials that both
hypnosis
> and relaxation techniques can reduce anxiety. they are also effective for
> panic disorders and insomnia particularly when integrated into a package
of
> cognitive therapy. A systematic review has found that hypnosis enhances
the
> effects of cbt for conditions such as phobia, obesity, and anxiety. **
> (British Medical Journal 1999)
>
> * I wish I could find them in my locale-:))

LOL

>
> ** Anxiety is a major feature in bringing about relapse in those who are
> addicted.
>
> I could continue for quite some time but I hope that the foregoing makes
the
> point that if a procedure is claimed to be effective, it should be able to
> lend itself to objective testing.
>
> You will be aware from your own experience and interests, that the
> complexities and fragile condition of those presenting with alcohol abuse
are
> sufficiently challenging and difficult to deal with, without risking
> treatments that have yet to be objectively assessed.

I agree. But I don't see NLP as a treatment but as an epistemology of the
structure of experience, which has derivative applications that include
those that can be classed as remedial (being picky, I know, but I think it
is important that we realize we are not talking about the *efficacy of NLP*,
indeed that we cannot talk about the efficacy of NLP)

Adam

OK, to continue the tradition of introducing oneself - Hi Folks:-)

I currently live in Milton Keynes (moving to West Yorkshire in a matter of
weeks). I have been a psychiatric nurse for 9 years, and run my own business
(healthcare recruitment) for 2 1/2. I have just jacked that in and am
returning to full time coal face nursing, while studying hypnotherapy and
NLP.

I come new to NLP, and have only completed half a Practitioner course (they
did too well on the well formed goals with me, because that was when I
decided on the major life change that also required me to put my prac
training on hold :-) But I am booked for the next practitioner course with
the Northern School of NLP.

I have to admit to being something of a convert, having had great success
with the fast phobia approach and other experiments derived from NLP. So
please slap me down if I start to sound off about something I know little
about <G> (But don't expect me not to answer back:-)

Enough for now. Look forward to learning more.

BTW, check out www.mknlp.org.uk for the Milton Keynes practitioner group-
next meeting april 30th, on the subject of time distortion.

Adam

Hi There

I thought I'd introduce myself.

My name is Barry, and I'm an NLP trainer from Liverpool. I'm also in the process
of setting up as a hypnotherapist, so I'm always looking for hypnotic script
ideas. If anyone has any, why don't we set up an exchange system? I've got a few
of my own which I'm happy to make available to other therapists.

Apart from that, I look forward to many fruitful discussions.

Cheers

Baz.

I'm looking


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,
I live in Haslemere, Surrey, and I have a growing coaching and consulting
business. I do training with a large IT company, and I am currently engaged
in a large project in a grocery company.

I did an NLP/TimeLine Therapy practitioner with Jenny Foster/Innersense,
plan to do a Master Prac this year, and I'm interested in how people
communicate at work.

Jonathan
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Andy Hunt [mailto:andy@...]
   Sent: 26 April 2002 09:36
   To: NLP-UK@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [NLP-UK] Hello


   Hi folks,

   I couldn't bare looking at the empty messages space so I thought I'd
   send a short introduction. I live Gateshead and work in Newcastle at the
   moment I'm a software engineer. However in my spare time I'm an NLPer
   and sometime soon I'd like to have a sideways career shift into
   therapeutic work particularly health related work.

   Training so far:

   ITS: Practitioner Spring 2000
   ITS: Master Practitioner 2001

   NLP North East: Practioner 2002 - I thought I could use the
   reinforcement and a different take on the whole thing and I'm really
   enjoying it. (also heavily discounted which is great)

   Training plans

   NLP North East: Master Practitioner 2002 - as above

   ITS Health Certification 2003 ? If they run one.

   Career aims:

   Would like to get involved with therapeutic work in a health setting,
   perhaps in association with GPs. Just a vague notion as yet ..... I know
   - bring it into focus, make it brighter & closer etc :)

   Things I'd like to be better at:

   The linguistic stuff, I'm very VK biased and the auditory stuff is a
   challenge.

   Anyway that's enough about me, how about you?

   All the best,

   Andy


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
               ADVERTISEMENT




   To unsubscribe email to:
   NLP-UK-nomail@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Adam,

Thank you for your contribution.

Of course the effectiveness of any tool in any endeavour will, to a greater
or lesser degree, be influenced by the competence of the user. However to use
that as a reason for not being able, or unwilling to measure effectiveness is
not productive.

Your comparison with psychotherapy is interesting. A similar comparison could
be drawn with hypnotherapy. However the effectiveness of both as suggested in
the following suggests that such a comparison is not valid:

Hypnosis is supported by more scientific evidence than any other
complementary therapy: (Health Education Authority [1994).

22.9% of GPs believe that hypnotherapy should be available in their
surgeries: (BMA 1993)*

There is good evidence from randomised controlled trials that both hypnosis
and relaxation techniques can reduce anxiety. they are also effective for
panic disorders and insomnia particularly when integrated into a package of
cognitive therapy. A systematic review has found that hypnosis enhances the
effects of cbt for conditions such as phobia, obesity, and anxiety. **
(British Medical Journal 1999)

* I wish I could find them in my locale-:))

** Anxiety is a major feature in bringing about relapse in those who are
addicted.

I could continue for quite some time but I hope that the foregoing makes the
point that if a procedure is claimed to be effective, it should be able to
lend itself to objective testing.

You will be aware from your own experience and interests, that the
complexities and fragile condition of those presenting with alcohol abuse are
sufficiently challenging and difficult to deal with, without risking
treatments that have yet to be objectively assessed.

Regards,

Peter O'Loughlin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: <peterolo@...>
> We are both cognisant of the value of NLP although we share reservations
as
> to if it is as effective as it is claimed to be. I am currently carrying
out
> some research into it's effectiveness with addictions. The difficulty of
all
> of the stuff I have found so far, is that whilst the authors are certainly
> skilled NLP practitioners, they have no first hand expereince of the
> complexity of some addictions. They have some interesting anecdotes,
together
> with one or two 'case' histories.

Hi Peter

My concern here would be about trying to measure the "effectiveness" of NLP.
In my book, NLP (or any such field) is not effective, it is the individual
who is effective in eliciting change. Given your brief CV I'm sure that I am
preaching to the enlightened here, but the statement above seems to me to be
riddled with the same problems that beset those who tried to research the
efficacy of psychotherapy. Their figures reflected the efficacy of the
practitioners in the sample population and not of the different schools of
intervention they whre researching.
>
> Unfortunately there is no evidence to support their hypothesis that NLP is
> effective with alcohol, or drug addiction.

See above. NLP is surely not effective at anything. As a clinician (I'm a
psychiatric nurse BTW) *I* am effective or otherwise at using the tools
available to me.

I have seen some appalling uses of NLP in psychiatric work, and very little
effective use. However, my own simple experiments in the field are more than
convincing me of the value of NLP in my field. I believe currently that this
comes down to two things.

1. Calibration- the practitioners I have had the misfortune to observe just
ain't doing it
2. Flexibility- the one practitioner that springs to mind had this habit of
persisting with the same approaches with her client even when the approach
was not effecting any change.

If you were to include these idiots in your research, and apply the premise
that you were researching *NLP*, you could only conclude that *NLP* didn't
work.

> For example I am unable to find
> any documented histories of whether NLP has been used in a clinical
setting,
> such as a detox unit or rehab centre. And if so what were the outcomes as
> compared with CBT, or other talking therapies.
>
> Any information that any one can offer, or point me to would be greatly
> appreciated.

I've not been very helpful in that regard :-)

However, I am just re-entering full-time clinical practice after nearly
three years, and do have a particular interest in drug and alcohol problems,
so would be very interested in what you turn up. I also intend to be doing
my own work in the field and will let you know of anything interesting.

One thing that does occur to me, is that many NLP Practitioners seem to
place a lot of emphasis on visual and auditory submodalities, while most
states induced by pharmaceuticals are both profoundly altered and often
involve unusually strong kinaesthetic and even gustatory (eg injecting
heroin) sensations.

Adam

Hi,

I know only a little of NLP. However I am aware that sales teams benefit
greatly from NLP. I dislike covert manipulation for financial greed and
gain. Ian spoke of a spoof on QVC. I would presume QVC know all about and
use NLP.  How can one become aware of this manipulation? What are the
pointers, the typical embedded commands to watch out for on programmes like
QVC?

Thanks.

Mary Ashley.

Hello Everyone,

It's good to see that they are already some familiar names here.

For those of you who haven't had the misfortune:-) of encountering me before,
I'm a hypnotherapist and psychotherapist and together with my wife who is a
qualified social worker and psychotherapist run the Eden Lodge Practice, in
Beckenham. I also run a clinic in Southend once a week.

My wife's principle area of activity is in bereavement and personal
relationships. My own is addictions, especially alcoholism and eating
disorders.

We are both cognisant of the value of NLP although we share reservations as
to if it is as effective as it is claimed to be. I am currently carrying out
some research into it's effectiveness with addictions. The difficulty of all
of the stuff I have found so far, is that whilst the authors are certainly
skilled NLP practitioners, they have no first hand expereince of the
complexity of some addictions. They have some interesting anecdotes, together
with one or two 'case' histories.

Unfortunately there is no evidence to support their hypothesis that NLP is
effective with alcohol, or drug addiction. For example I am unable to find
any documented histories of whether NLP has been used in a clinical setting,
such as a detox unit or rehab centre. And if so what were the outcomes as
compared with CBT, or other talking therapies.

Any information that any one can offer, or point me to would be greatly
appreciated.

Regards.


Peter O'Loughlin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Carole,

I'm also new to this group.  Coaching is an interesting profession,
as I have been in the coaching field for several years now.  Once you
get your feet wet - you might want to transition into group
coaching.  I find it much more stimulating (and lucrative) than one-
on-one coaching.  You may want to check out Coachville for more about
the coaching field -
http://www.thomasleonard.com/coachville/default.lasso?id=933028
  - it was started by Thomas Leonard, the founder of CoachU and the
International Coach Federation.  Currently, Coachville is the largest
coaching organization in the world with approximately 10,000
members.  It's also full of information regarding the coaching
industry.

Much Success,

Bob Choat, C.Ht., GMS
Inspired Warrior Coach
http://www.hypnomindpower.com

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "Carole Kinsey" <carole@n...> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> How nice to have a new group started. Here is another on in the
front row and I am looking forward to some interesting discussions
and getting to know some new people.
>
> I am Carole - an NLP trainer, in Surrey, running Practitioner and
Master Practitioner Courses with a colleague - Peter Hawke. We have
been running courses for the past four years and have a slow drip
feed approach. Our courses take 11 months - one weekend a month with
a month off in the middle and lots of practise in- between. we have
found that doing NLP that way means it can really get into
the "bones" and enable people to become unconsciously competent. As a
follow on, I am able to offer accelerated Master's courses - which
only take 10 days - but the students reach a very high level.
>
> I am just about to begin work as a life coach  (either face to
face - or by phone) - and have set myself a target to achieve 5 new
clients in the next couple of months. Anyone interested - or knows
anyone who might be?
>
> I am looking forward to "sitting further back than the front row!"
>
> Carole
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Great minds think alike, both Elman and Erickson follow James Braid in
defining hypnosis as a state of selective awareness (monoideism):

Hypnosis is a state of mind in which the critical faculty of the human is
bypassed, and selective thinking established. (Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy,
1964: 26)


In the state of hypnosis, as in the state of conscious awareness, you give
your attention but you give your attention to selected ideas.  (Milton
Erickson, Collected Papers, 1980, vol. II, cap. 4, p. 28)

Don.

Donald Robertson
Hypnosis & Hypnotherapy
Harley St., London, UK







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "Hadrian444" <hadrian444@l...> wrote:
> 1) What is a Master Practitioner?

Anyone who has done two short courses on NLP.

> 4) Was there not only ONE Master Practitioner, namely Erickson, the
founder and originator of the entire NLP system? He was just Milton
Erickson MD.

Erickson did NOT found NLP.  NLP was loosely based on a study of his
work along with general study of other therapies around at the time.

Best,

Don.

Hello folks.  I'm Sue.  I run self-hypnosis courses in
Northamptonshire and I am currently training in hypnotherapy.

I have read a bit and taken a week-end NLP workshop.  I know NLP will
be very useful when I start to see clients, however so far, in all
honesty, I don't have a very good opinion of it.  I believe this is
because I don't understand it fully and have been involved with too
many NLP groups where I have found the members to be aggressive and
manipulative, and I was "afraid" to ask my "stupid" questions.

So now I am hoping that this new group will help to bring me closer
to understanding this fascinating thing called NLP.  Be prepared for
a lot of "stupid" questions!

Look forward to enlightening participation.

Warmest best wishes to all, Sue

Now here's few little questions.
I know Hypnotists, Stage Hypnotists, Hypnotherapists, Hypnoanalysts and NLP
Practitioners. All of these I have no problem with.

Now for the questions.

1) What is a Master Practitioner?
2) Says whom?
3) Who authorises this change from Practitioner to Master Practitioner and under
what legitimate criteria and authority?
4) Was there not only ONE Master Practitioner, namely Erickson, the founder and
originator of the entire NLP system?
He was just Milton Erickson MD.
No Master Practitioner of anything there yet no one has matched his skill, much
less eclipsed it.
5) Is this entire Master Practitioner thing not just sheer pap?


smiles
Peter Willis
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Carole Kinsey
   To: NLP-UK@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:50 AM
   Subject: [NLP-UK] Hello everyone


   Hello everyone,

   How nice to have a new group started. Here is another on in the front row and
I am looking forward to some interesting discussions and getting to know some
new people.

   I am Carole - an NLP trainer, in Surrey, running Practitioner and Master
Practitioner Courses with a colleague - Peter Hawke. We have been running
courses for the past four years and have a slow drip feed approach. Our courses
take 11 months - one weekend a month with a month off in the middle and lots of
practise in- between. we have found that doing NLP that way means it can really
get into the "bones" and enable people to become unconsciously competent. As a
follow on, I am able to offer accelerated Master's courses - which only take 10
days - but the students reach a very high level.

   I am just about to begin work as a life coach  (either face to face - or by
phone) - and have set myself a target to achieve 5 new clients in the next
couple of months. Anyone interested - or knows anyone who might be?

   I am looking forward to "sitting further back than the front row!"

   Carole




   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   To unsubscribe email to:
   NLP-UK-nomail@yahoogroups.com

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


   ---
   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
   Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "jism_monkey2002" <jism_monkey2002@y...> wrote:
> Hi Ian
>
> I did the McKenna Breen prac course 2 years ago, would be interested
> to hear your experience/opinion/outcomes of it.
>
> Eric

Hi (nice screen name!!)

I posted some initial thoughts onto alt.psych.nlp a couple of days
after the course finished, which I'll copy here:

========
In a strange sense, the week managed simultaneously to show me the
power of NLP and at the same time to remind me that its not magic -
just some good ideas well applied. I lost my sense of NLP as "devious
communication" which would make me do things I didn't want to (because
frankly, it isn't) but gained instead a healthy respect for the role
that "thinking about thinking" could play in my life.

I thought the trainers were excellent. My opinion of Richard grew
through the week, although I probably still think he is
hero-worshipped more than is justified. I hugely admire his philosophy
and the passion with which he obviously lives it. The jury is out on
unconscious installation - ask me again in a couple of weeks!

Michael and Paul were simply excellent - the best stage trainers I
have ever seen. I'm amazed at how well they handled such a large group
and at how much content we covered over the week - I can't find much
in my NLP books now that I haven't had a go at.

High points from the course for me were the compulsion blowout (as
long as I live, I will always remember seeing that woman cured of a
chocolate craving in 2 mins flat). The phobia cure day was great too -
I cured someone of a public speaking phobia and had him in tears,
which was very moving. There were many other memorable moments as
well, including Paul and Michael's hilarious QVC spoof, which taught
me more about embedded commands than any book. All the memorable
moments for me have in common that they point out just how much
control we can have over our own minds and attitudes if we really work
at it - a valuable lesson.

No real low points, but I would certainly have some feedback for the
organisers. In the first couple of days I had some real concerns about
the stage demonstrations - all the old stage hypnosis tricks were in
evidence, including careful selection of volunteers etc. I'd disagree
with you about Richard's "cures" of public speaking anxiety on the
first day - I thought it was pretty clear than in both cases the
subjects were only really claiming to be cured to get back off the
stage. I also agree that there was slightly too much focus on the
theraputic aspects and too little on sales, negotiation and other
business applications for my taste, though that's an individual thing.

I don't want any of that to take away from what was a fantastic and
educational week - I know a thousand percent more about NLP than I did
beforehand and have a whole toolkit of new things to try. I also have
a real sense of how much I don't yet know, and a hunger to learn more.

Probably most importantly, my wife has already commented on how much
I've changed personally for the better, which was one of the things I
really worked on in the exercises, so there must be something in it!
=============

I'm not sure I've particularly changed my views since then. I haven't
noticed any "unconscious installation" magic yet, but perhaps that's
a topic for a new thread - did you experience any of this in the
weeks/months after your course?

cheers

Ian

Hi there

My name is Najma and I trained with McKenna Breen in March 1999. I've also done
a three day course entitled "A seminar with Eric Robbie" and a three "Linguistic
wizardry" course with Jonathan Altfeld. I used to go to NLPlay groups
approximately once a month and have seen Joseph Riggio and Sid Jacobson, amongst
others. I've also attended Richmond and Regent's college NLP groups from time to
time.

Last weekend I did a time line therapy (tm) course with Andy Smith and Margaret
Nash which I enjoyed very much. I am hoping to use all my learning's to design a
personal development workshop soon. I currently run Relaxation workshops using
NLP and hypnosis. I also run a list on yahoogroups called London Personal
Development which is open to anyone with any interest in personal development
and/or alternative therapies. If anyone is interested in joining this group send
an email to LondonPersonalDevelopment-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Look foreword to taking part in discussions soon.

Najma

************************************************
                               First Path
                       Hypnotherapy & NLP
T: 020 8926 1297 E: firstpath@...
http://www.ukhypnosis.com/firstpath


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ian

I did the McKenna Breen prac course 2 years ago, would be interested
to hear your experience/opinion/outcomes of it.

Eric

--- In NLP-UK@y..., "iannospam_1" <ian.shepherd@b...> wrote:
> Now, I'm not one of those that has to sit in the front row at
> seminars, but posting the first message here feels strangely
similar!
>
> I suppose introductions are in order. I'm mid-30s and in business
> (marketing). I'm exploring NLP both for its impact on marcoms and
> also as a tool to help coach others and get through the usual big
> business stuff around influencing other teams etc.
>
> I did the McKenna Breen prac course earlier this month - interesting
> in sharing training feedback and stories with anyone who cares to.
>
> Anyone else care to reciprocate, or is this one of those tumbleweed
> scenarios?
>
> Ian

Hello everyone,

How nice to have a new group started. Here is another on in the front row and I
am looking forward to some interesting discussions and getting to know some new
people.

I am Carole - an NLP trainer, in Surrey, running Practitioner and Master
Practitioner Courses with a colleague - Peter Hawke. We have been running
courses for the past four years and have a slow drip feed approach. Our courses
take 11 months - one weekend a month with a month off in the middle and lots of
practise in- between. we have found that doing NLP that way means it can really
get into the "bones" and enable people to become unconsciously competent. As a
follow on, I am able to offer accelerated Master's courses - which only take 10
days - but the students reach a very high level.

I am just about to begin work as a life coach  (either face to face - or by
phone) - and have set myself a target to achieve 5 new clients in the next
couple of months. Anyone interested - or knows anyone who might be?

I am looking forward to "sitting further back than the front row!"

Carole




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My turn then! Just joined today and will take total to 3 messages.

I am John Gordon. I live London area and currently earn my living as
an entertainer, infotainer and trainer / coach.

My background is in Design and Marketing (Creative Consultant)
primarily in publishing, corporate and personal image, creativity and
communication.

I am not a practitioner (yet) but studying NLP and attending Richmond
Group and Regents Park group meetings as well as other one off
sessions.

Looking forward to hearing and discussing more in this group.

John
MagicWorks

Hi folks,

I couldn't bare looking at the empty messages space so I thought I'd
send a short introduction. I live Gateshead and work in Newcastle at the
moment I'm a software engineer. However in my spare time I'm an NLPer
and sometime soon I'd like to have a sideways career shift into
therapeutic work particularly health related work.

Training so far:

ITS: Practitioner Spring 2000
ITS: Master Practitioner 2001

NLP North East: Practioner 2002 - I thought I could use the
reinforcement and a different take on the whole thing and I'm really
enjoying it. (also heavily discounted which is great)

Training plans

NLP North East: Master Practitioner 2002 - as above

ITS Health Certification 2003 ? If they run one.

Career aims:

Would like to get involved with therapeutic work in a health setting,
perhaps in association with GPs. Just a vague notion as yet ..... I know
- bring it into focus, make it brighter & closer etc :)

Things I'd like to be better at:

The linguistic stuff, I'm very VK biased and the auditory stuff is a
challenge.

Anyway that's enough about me, how about you?

All the best,

Andy

Now, I'm not one of those that has to sit in the front row at
seminars, but posting the first message here feels strangely similar!

I suppose introductions are in order. I'm mid-30s and in business
(marketing). I'm exploring NLP both for its impact on marcoms and
also as a tool to help coach others and get through the usual big
business stuff around influencing other teams etc.

I did the McKenna Breen prac course earlier this month - interesting
in sharing training feedback and stories with anyone who cares to.

Anyone else care to reciprocate, or is this one of those tumbleweed
scenarios?

Ian