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  • Category: Ecosystems
  • Founded: May 17, 2009
  • Language: English
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#62 From: "moersch51" <moersch51@...>
Date: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:13 pm
Subject: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
moersch51
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Ettamarie-

> The Warre hive makes a lot of sense. I could never use it because I
> am only 5 feet tall and old and weak.

Don't let that stop you, please. I am also old and weak, and run 20
Warre hives up in Alberta. Our weaknesses become the bees' strengths. I
have developed a top bar-less warre-type hive and methodology and these
have become the finest hives I've seen in my 35 years of beekeeping.
This is my second season with them, and they survived their first winter
(a long and cold one) in fine shape. I use no treatments, and no
artificial feeds. My only problems are bears and skunks. Those problems
are easy. I will be happy to elaborate if you'd like.

Regards-
John in Calgary


--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, Ettamarie
Peterson <peterson@...> wrote:
>
> The Warre hive makes a lot of sense. I could never use it because I
> am only 5 feet tall and old and weak.
> On Sep 20, 2009, at 1:16 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> >
> > That is indeed my opinion Ettamarie. For that reason also I use a
> > Warré hive which allows the bees to build all their own comb from
> > top to bottom as is natural.
> > Test have shown that overwintering bees use 20-25 % less honey
> > stores in a Warré hive than in a national type hive, probably due
> > to the Warré being narrower and higher which also makes it more
> > natural since it is much more like a hollow tree than the flat and
> > wide national box.
> > john
> > Reading  John D'hondt's post makes me think he is of the opinion
> > that we would have better bees if we gave them a better place to
> > live. This makes a lot of sense to me. Many diseases are caused by
> > poor living conditions for people as well as other animals and
> > insects. A good water proof, comfortable hive would be a big help
> > to the bees I am sure. Planting a variety of crops, flowers and
> > trees that have a variety of year around blooms would also help.
> > The other thing I think is crucial is to have good local stock that
> > are acclimated to the area. It would make no sense for me to raise
> > Native Irish bees here in the Mediterranean climate of Northern
> > California. That is why I am working towards keeping alive the
> > swarms I catch. We do have bee trees in our neighborhood and feral
> > colonies found in walls of houses and barns, etc. Something is good
> > about them or they would not survive well enough to swarm in the
> > spring.
> >>
> >
> > Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com
>

#63 From: Ettamarie Peterson <peterson@...>
Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:21 am
Subject: Re: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
petersonsfarm
Send Email Send Email
 
Doesn't lifting those upper boxes bother you or do you make them all mediums? Even a medium is 30 pounds if full of honey. Please do elaborate.
On Sep 20, 2009, at 4:13 PM, moersch51 wrote:

 

Hi Ettamarie-

> The Warre hive makes a lot of sense. I could never use it because I
> am only 5 feet tall and old and weak.

Don't let that stop you, please. I am also old and weak, and run 20
Warre hives up in Alberta. Our weaknesses become the bees' strengths. I
have developed a top bar-less warre-type hive and methodology and these
have become the finest hives I've seen in my 35 years of beekeeping.
This is my second season with them, and they survived their first winter
(a long and cold one) in fine shape. I use no treatments, and no
artificial feeds. My only problems are bears and skunks. Those problems
are easy. I will be happy to elaborate if you'd like.

Regards-
John in Calgary


Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com



#64 From: Dave Thorn <davet@...>
Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:49 am
Subject: Re: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
anotherdavey
Send Email Send Email
 
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:21:04PM -0700, Ettamarie Peterson wrote:
[On lifting Warres]
> Doesn't lifting those upper boxes bother you or do you make them all
> mediums? Even a medium is 30 pounds if full of honey. Please do
> elaborate.

Perhaps this can help:

http://warre.biobees.com/lift.htm

David Heaf's Warre pages:

http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/beeindex.htm

Thanks,

--
dave thorn

#65 From: Ettamarie Peterson <peterson@...>
Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
petersonsfarm
Send Email Send Email
 
That does help! I saw a hive lifter made in Italy at the Apimondia in Ireland. I had forgotten about it until I saw those. The one on the trolley with wheels would be good for folks who had more than one hive.
On Sep 20, 2009, at 11:49 PM, Dave Thorn wrote:

 

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:21:04PM -0700, Ettamarie Peterson wrote:
[On lifting Warres]
> Doesn't lifting those upper boxes bother you or do you make them all
> mediums? Even a medium is 30 pounds if full of honey. Please do
> elaborate.

Perhaps this can help:

http://warre.biobees.com/lift.htm

David Heaf's Warre pages:

http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/beeindex.htm

Thanks,

--
dave thorn


Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com



#66 From: "John D'hondt" <dhondt@...>
Date: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
dhondt@...
Send Email Send Email
 
I would be very interested to find out more too John in Calgary.
How does this top bar less hive work?
john in Ireland

Hi Ettamarie-

> The Warre hive makes a lot of sense. I could never use it because I
> am only 5 feet tall and old and weak.

Don't let that stop you, please. I am also old and weak, and run 20
Warre hives up in Alberta. Our weaknesses become the bees' strengths. I
have developed a top bar-less warre-type hive and methodology and these
have become the finest hives I've seen in my 35 years of beekeeping.
This is my second season with them, and they survived their first winter
(a long and cold one) in fine shape. I use no treatments, and no
artificial feeds. My only problems are bears and skunks. Those problems
are easy. I will be happy to elaborate if you'd like.

Regards-
John in Calgary


--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, Ettamarie
Peterson <peterson@...> wrote:
>
> The Warre hive makes a lot of sense. I could never use it because I
> am only 5 feet tall and old and weak.
> On Sep 20, 2009, at 1:16 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
>
> >
> > That is indeed my opinion Ettamarie. For that reason also I use a
> > Warré hive which allows the bees to build all their own comb from
> > top to bottom as is natural.
> > Test have shown that overwintering bees use 20-25 % less honey
> > stores in a Warré hive than in a national type hive, probably due
> > to the Warré being narrower and higher which also makes it more
> > natural since it is much more like a hollow tree than the flat and
> > wide national box.
> > john
> > Reading  John D'hondt's post makes me think he is of the opinion
> > that we would have better bees if we gave them a better place to
> > live. This makes a lot of sense to me. Many diseases are caused by
> > poor living conditions for people as well as other animals and
> > insects. A good water proof, comfortable hive would be a big help
> > to the bees I am sure. Planting a variety of crops, flowers and
> > trees that have a variety of year around blooms would also help.
> > The other thing I think is crucial is to have good local stock that
> > are acclimated to the area. It would make no sense for me to raise
> > Native Irish bees here in the Mediterranean climate of Northern
> > California. That is why I am working towards keeping alive the
> > swarms I catch. We do have bee trees in our neighborhood and feral
> > colonies found in walls of houses and barns, etc. Something is good
> > about them or they would not survive well enough to swarm in the
> > spring.
> >>
> >
> > Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ettamarie Peterson  www.petersonsfarm.com and www.liberty4Hbees.com
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

#67 From: "billsf9c" <OOWONBS@...>
Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 12:48 am
Subject: Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
billsf9c
Send Email Send Email
 
There's a John M on the Warré list that now can report that his topbar-less
hive(s) are doing well.

BillSF9c

--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, "John D'hondt"
<dhondt@...> wrote:
>
>
> I would be very interested to find out more too John in Calgary.
> How does this top bar less hive work?
> john in Ireland
>

#68 From: OOWONBS@...
Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:10 am
Subject: Re: top bar less hive
billsf9c
Send Email Send Email
 
>Re: Explaining the Role of Local Population
>There's a John M on the Warré list that now can report that his topbar-less 
hive(s) are doing well.
BillSF9c

>> I would be very interested to find out more too John in Calgary.
>> How does this top bar less hive work?
>> john in Ireland

Seeing this in the light of a new day, perhaps I misunderstood
the intent of your query...

He uses flat plywood as i recall, with holes or slots in it to
facilitate moisture migration into a Warré-like hive's quilt-box.
Spales are inserted here and the, as the boxes descent.
(Warré technique calls for nadirring, or subbering, as
opposed to supering additional boxes. No foundation is
used, though sometimes a starter strip may be, when
topbars are used, which he is not.)


This is to mimic more closely a tree cavity.
A spale is
like a top bar, but is often at an odd skewed angle,
and there may be 1 - 3 per box.

One advantage is that he doesn't see what others and
he sometimes did, which is the reluctance for bees to
initiate building downward, past the next set of topbars,
into a new box, at certain times of year or flows. It
is thought that (or, *I* think...)  there is  a reluctance to
initiate a new box that they cannot largerly fill, as it
would break up the solid mass of brood, hindering
warming efforts. John M does not see this effect, and
does in his standard Warré hives, on not rare occasion,
at some times of year, which I will take to be cessation
of flow when it coincides with a time that a new box
would have to be decended into... or whenever that
time approaches time to expand brood. His topbarless
bees have no "have to warm a new room for just 20
rows of cells" issue. They can proceed 1 cell
downward, at will.

John M & I like to experiment with numbers and shape
of hives. In Warré's day, w/o power tools, a cylinder
was impractical. We look at hex's and octagons/etc.,
to see ratio of surface area to volume. A Warré concept
is thermal dynamics, and is a main reason that frames
are not used, as they tend to not abut the hive-body
walls, and allow a draft in the beespace, and thus,
between the comb.

Hope that's better, if the other was not a "Good" or
"Bad" question.

HNY! (2% into it already!)
BillSF9c


#69 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:32 am
Subject: Progress...?
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Everybody,
 
Happy New Year!  There seems to be an air of optimism around, a sense that our way of thinking is making inroads into the journals, forums and conferences.   I've noted below a few positive signs, partly in order to gather these things in one place.  Could I ask you all to report other similarly useful developments?  I still maintain what I think are most useful sources on my links page, and will soon be updating this.  Lets try to put together a good guide to sources of best practice and studies, and publicize any new papers and conference events as widely as we can.
 
There is an organic beekeeping conference in Orlando next week, (http://seobc.beekeeperspbc.com/page2.html) to coincide with the adjacent American Beekeeping Federation conference.  The ABF program shows the depth to which our ideas are breaking through.  Marla Spivak and other leading lights of the selctive breeding movement will be present.
 
In the UK, at a forthcoming Welsh Convention:

DR JOHN KEFUSS
COMMERCIAL QUEEN BREEDER, TOULOUSE, FRANCE
“LIVE & LET LIVE – TO TREAT OR NOT TO TREAT,
THAT IS THE QUESTIONâ€
 
Royal Welsh Showground, Builth Wells, on Saturday, March 27th.
 
Marla Spivak (again) has begun an online course for selection against varroa (and other parasites and diseases) 
 
In the journals The American Bee Journal seems to be a leading light. (I haven't got a list of useful papers)
 
From others:
 
Mike Allsopp's paper Analysis of Varroa Destructor infestation of Southern African Honeybee populations is a breakthrough, as is:
 

Conserving diversity and vitality for honey bee breeding

Marina D Meixner, Cecilia Costa, Per Kryger, Fani Hatjina, Maria Bouga, Evgeniya Ivanova, Ralph Büchler, Journal of Apicultural Research 49(1): 85-92 (2010)
 
Extracts from the abstract:
 
In this paper, we briefly review the genetic diversity of honey bees in Europe, discuss the effects of beekeeping and selective breeding on honey bee populations under the aspect of genetic diversity and bee health, and review the current status of EU legislation with respect to protection of native bee populations. We introduce and discuss recent approaches in honey bee selective breeding to improve disease resistance by introducing traits related to colony vitality. Finally, we present the aims of WG4 within the COLOSS network and briefly introduce our experimental approach.
The general theme is that 'traditional' breeding (poor wording in my view) meaning 'what breeders currently do' does nothing to maintain health, and that changing that would make a great deal of difference.  The underlying science is entirely supportive of our beliefs; and this marks what seem to me to be an exiting development: the scientists and the organic beekeeping movement are joining up, and both fingering the breeders and non-selective commercial keepers as causes of ill health. 
 
I'm finding the forums are more open to our ideas these days, though the stupidity and rudeness of some beekeepers remains boundless.  Some are plainly terrified of change, but I think a great many have quietly taken in the basic message.  Those still fighting make no attempt to put up arguments.  The more we spread the new thinking, the more we can hope to attract like-minded people to our cause, so please, do chip in when you can and help to spread the word on whatever forums you belong to.  Plenty of cross-posting of links and positive news will be very helpful to everybody. 
 
Names to watch out for in 2010:
Dave de Jong, Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Jerry Hayes, Maryann Frazier, Jerry Bromenshenk, Medhat Nasr.
 
I have a horrible feeling I've forgotten something important...
 
All the best for 2010!
 
Mike
 
 
 
http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

#70 From: peter haywood <samphorgatherer@...>
Date: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:48 pm
Subject: Re: Progress...?
samphorgatherer
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi All
          A Happy New Year to you all.   I`ve been pleased to note during the previous season my 70 plus, untreated stocks are all progressing well and many which had a small amount of varroa "damage" at various points during the season seem to have stabilised their mite populations at a point well below the damage threshold, and all went into the winter without any sign of either damage or phoretic mites though I`m sure a long enough look would dig out one or two mites.  All remain in good health and I`m looking forward to another season free from the stink of thymol in my car!  As I now have a significant number of  very long term untreated stocks for breeding from too, I hope to be able to re-queen any stocks which show signs of "falling by the wayside" over the coming seasons.
Best wishes to you all
                                   Pete H.   N. Wales

From: "mikebispham@..." <mikebispham@...>
To: Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 10 January, 2010 13:32:47
Subject: [Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee] Progress...?

 

Hello Everybody,
 
Happy New Year!  There seems to be an air of optimism around, a sense that our way of thinking is making inroads into the journals, forums and conferences.   I've noted below a few positive signs, partly in order to gather these things in one place.  Could I ask you all to report other similarly useful developments?  I still maintain what I think are most useful sources on my links page, and will soon be updating this.  Lets try to put together a good guide to sources of best practice and studies, and publicize any new papers and conference events as widely as we can.
 
There is an organic beekeeping conference in Orlando next week, (http://seobc. beekeeperspbc. com/page2. html) to coincide with the adjacent American Beekeeping Federation conference.  The ABF program shows the depth to which our ideas are breaking through.  Marla Spivak and other leading lights of the selctive breeding movement will be present.
 
In the UK, at a forthcoming Welsh Convention:

DR JOHN KEFUSS
COMMERCIAL QUEEN BREEDER, TOULOUSE, FRANCE
“LIVE & LET LIVE – TO TREAT OR NOT TO TREAT,
THAT IS THE QUESTIONâ€
 
Royal Welsh Showground, Builth Wells, on Saturday, March 27th.
 
Marla Spivak (again) has begun an online course for selection against varroa (and other parasites and diseases) 
 
In the journals The American Bee Journal seems to be a leading light. (I haven't got a list of useful papers)
 
From others:
 
Mike Allsopp's paper Analysis of Varroa Destructor infestation of Southern African Honeybee populations is a breakthrough, as is:
 

Conserving diversity and vitality for honey bee breeding

Marina D Meixner, Cecilia Costa, Per Kryger, Fani Hatjina, Maria Bouga, Evgeniya Ivanova, Ralph Büchler, Journal of Apicultural Research 49(1): 85-92 (2010)
 
Extracts from the abstract:
 
In this paper, we briefly review the genetic diversity of honey bees in Europe, discuss the effects of beekeeping and selective breeding on honey bee populations under the aspect of genetic diversity and bee health, and review the current status of EU legislation with respect to protection of native bee populations. We introduce and discuss recent approaches in honey bee selective breeding to improve disease resistance by introducing traits related to colony vitality. Finally, we present the aims of WG4 within the COLOSS network and briefly introduce our experimental approach.
The general theme is that 'traditional' breeding (poor wording in my view) meaning 'what breeders currently do' does nothing to maintain health, and that changing that would make a great deal of difference.  The underlying science is entirely supportive of our beliefs; and this marks what seem to me to be an exiting development: the scientists and the organic beekeeping movement are joining up, and both fingering the breeders and non-selective commercial keepers as causes of ill health. 
 
I'm finding the forums are more open to our ideas these days, though the stupidity and rudeness of some beekeepers remains boundless.  Some are plainly terrified of change, but I think a great many have quietly taken in the basic message.  Those still fighting make no attempt to put up arguments.  The more we spread the new thinking, the more we can hope to attract like-minded people to our cause, so please, do chip in when you can and help to spread the word on whatever forums you belong to.  Plenty of cross-posting of links and positive news will be very helpful to everybody. 
 
Names to watch out for in 2010:
Dave de Jong, Dennis vanEngelsdorp, Jerry Hayes, Maryann Frazier, Jerry Bromenshenk, Medhat Nasr.
 
I have a horrible feeling I've forgotten something important...
 
All the best for 2010!
 
Mike
 
 
 
http://www.suttonjo inery.co. uk/CCD/


#71 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:57 am
Subject: Progress and books
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Everyone,
 
A couple of snippets;
 
There has been quite a lot of interesting action on beesource recently - the quality comes and goes, but among the dross there are a few gems, and a definite sense of progress.  Look for the thread: Natural Cell Beekeeping.
 
Also, Larry Connor (Wicwas Press) has just released a new queen Rearing book. Should prove quite interesting as he's pretty much at the forefront of practical breeding for resistance.
 
(Thanks Roland)
 
Mike
 

#72 From: OOWONBS@...
Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:25 pm
Subject: Re: Progress and books
billsf9c
Send Email Send Email
 

>There has been quite a lot of interesting action on beesource recently - 
the quality comes and goes, but among the dross there are a few gems, and a
definite sense of progress. Look for the thread: Natural Cell Beekeeping.

Yes. That we are here, and there and there and there ad nauseum,
indicated *our* members desire to learn these gems. But all of life
is gem-seeking, as we muddle through the routine. And how good
we are socially and individually in seeking those gems and sharing
them strategically, (...We can't help it. We are animals, too.) is
wagt determines our success, and proliferation. And that is *OUR*
natural selection.

Here's some other boll info. I understand that it ~ $14.95, with
amazon/penguin process making PreOrders just $11 or 12.95.

From 1 of the authors:
>
Hi everyone, it seems that our book has actually gone to publication.

The book was running long, so they've dropped our 12 pages of references (which
will be online instead), and added some pages so the book is now 224 pages
rather than 208. <*Bet he got this backwards.*>
So, with that said, here is the introduction to "The Complete Idiot's Guide to
Beekeeping".
<Here's one paragraph... and a link oto the Intro, which might
be on the site. The Intro was very long, fro a post.>

No matter the accumulated knowledge, no matter the sophistication of the tools,
every answer we get yields countless questions. The closer we look, the deeper
we go, and it never seems to end. This is the nature of the honeybee.
Working with them, studying them, trying to unlock their secrets, is both
satisfying and engaging. This is the big secret: bees are more interesting than
honey.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers/message/76804
<*I'm on the list. No other connection with these folks. Good list, also.>

>Also, Larry Connor (Wicwas Press) has just released a new queen Rearing
book. Should prove quite interesting as he's pretty much at the forefront of
practical breeding for resistance.
Mike

Last but not least, we have created a website to support our readers.
www.TheCompleteIdiotsGuideToBeekeeping.com contains additional information,
updates, clarifications, educational videos, commentary from other beekeepers
and an interactive forum so that readers can communicate with one another[md]and
with us. We hope to see you there!

“The bee’s life is like a magic well: the more you draw from it, the more it
fills with water†–Karl Von Frisch

<*I haven't looked at the site. New, & new to me.>
Best,
<BillSF9c>


#73 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:53 am
Subject: Nice to see you
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
hey,
how are you ?
Just received  my 2010 Yamaha YZF-R 2010 YZFR1 R1  from this website.
www. excebuy.com much cheaper than others and genuine . if you would
like to get one,you can check it out . They have  many other items .
all the best for 2010

Regards



Afternoon

#74 From: "mikebispham" <mikebispham@...>
Date: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:49 am
Subject: Friedrich Ruttner on the importance of ruthless selection
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
I recently came across a book containing a passage that supplies authorative
support for the thesis that failure to select for health is resulting in
widespread ill health in bees, and that treatments are massively compounding the
problem.  I've copied the relevant part, and offer it here as a focus for
disussion of the problem.

Best to All,

Mike

Friedrich Ruttner, Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the
Honeybee, translated by Ashleigh and Eric Milner [1]

Chapter II: Selection for Performance

1.  What is breeding?
Queen breeding is, in the first place, simply the increase in the number of
queens.  By regular rejuvenation and keeping a reserve supply of queens the
output of an apiary can be very substantially increased.  The enhanced
productive energy of the young queens is utilized and deficiencies in the
working stock, which result in queenlessness, drone laying, or any other kind of
failure in a queen, are made good.  Queen breeding ranks as the most important
activity in the management of an apiary; by it the apiarist, in the words of
Professor Shillers of Vienna, advances from being a beekeeper to being a bee
breeder.

Yet breeding is not merely a question of reproduction.  Above all, breeding
implies improvement in the bee's performance capability.  No colony is exactly
like another; brood rearing, inclination to swarm, foraging vigour, stinginess,
susceptibility to disease, differ from colony to colony.  Breeding means the
augmentation of the best [the positive variants] and the ELIMINATION OF THE BAD
[the negative variants]. [2]  The aim is the attainment of an apiary which is
uniform and has an above average performance.

Breeding is by no means a human invention.  Nature, which in millions of years
has bought forth this immense diversity of wonderfully adapted creatures, is the
greatest breeder.  It is from her that the present day breeder learnt how it
must be done, excessive production and then ruthless selection, permitting only
the most suitable to survive and eliminating the inferior.  If this harsh rule
of nature is either set aside or relaxed the constraints will within a short
time be broken through, and a species will disintegrate into a large number of
different forms which through divergent colouring and living requirements,
through unusual body forms, will depart from the natural pattern.  In laboratory
animals which are kept only for study and not within a definite breeding
objective, these phenomena can be regularly observed.  At the same time, reduced
fitness for life under natural conditions very quickly results, because in
nature this is only preserved by incessant and rigourous selection.  If this
selection is lacking because the trouble of finding food and warm shelter and
taking care of the young has been removed and protection from enemies has been
provided, the ability to hold its own in nature gradually but inevitably
declines.  What has the wolf, the ancestor of our dogs, turned into during the
course of millennia under the hand of man?  A Dachshund or Poodle would soon be
a pitiful wreck if it had to try to exist on its own.

Nature is also the breeder's greatest instructress as to how to avoid
inbreeding:- no mating within the same colony; mating flights to far distant
assembly places; multiple mating.
[…]

2. The Breeding of Honeybees
Our bees have certainly not yet reached the condition of the domestic animals
just mentioned since even today they still have to maintain the struggle for
existence largely on their own.  Nonetheless, we have gone a very long way
towards making their lives easier, so that the laziest colony or the latest
swarm is not in danger of starving the following winter.  Today the majority of
beekeepers restrict themselves to protecting their bees, but allow them to
increase just as they like.  What is the result?  Stocks with excessive swarming
tendency grow ever more numerous, while the good foragers with weak tendency to
increase, which rejuvenate themselves by supercedure, are driven back  Wit the
Heather bee, and in the Carinthian method of breeding for swarms which produce
bees quite useless for a modern beekeeping business, we see the result of these
practices quite clearly.

[1] Published by the British Isles Bee Breeders Association by Arrangement with
Ehrenwirth Verlag, Munich;1988, pages 45-46
[2] This sentence is italicized in the book.

#75 From: Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...>
Date: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: Friedrich Ruttner on the importance of ruthless selection
t.vandermeche@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Mike,

thank you for the info.
________________________________

Just a quick note to introduce myself to the other group members. I am
a Dutch beekeeper since summer 2009.
To me it's very clear that we (as a beekeeper) should support natural
selection by doing nothing. This is risky and we need some courage to
do this. I lost allready two colonies due to the bad summer. I wanted
to feed them but the other colonies instantly started robbing. So I
quit feeding. The two colonies died two weeks ago. But I'm  not sad
about it because it makes room for the other colonies: more flowers,
nectar and pollen for the survivors!. The article you send us supports
me in my basically-doing-nothing-method. And let's face it: Mother
Nature knows what she does!

The funny thing is that this Friedrich Ruttner writes about dogs
(Woolf versus Poodle) and that is the same example I use when I
discuss my "method" with other people.

I still have 6 or 7 colonies to go through this winter. Let's see what happens.

I followed your (Mike) advise:
1 I want to go as far as 10 colonies to compensate for the heavy loss of bees.
2 A friend and I founded a small beebreeding group so (maybe for next
season) we will have about twenty colonies to compensate the heavy
losses of bees.
3 I will go after that (forty year old) feral stock swarming around in
our small village. The seem to do good this season! I'll stay
connected with the lady who lives there. She will warn me when she
sees a swarm coming.

I allready wrote you about it but I would like to share my ideas about
beekeeping with the other Yahoo-group members:

This is my "method":

I do not treat our bees means that I do not treat our bees in any way.
I have two top bar hives. And a couple of other small nucs. All made
form natural materials. 100% poison free and breathable stuff. (wood,
clay, cowdung) I do not treat.
I don't use waxfoundation.
I do not make splits.
I do not collect honey.
I do not disturb the broodnest.
They swarm all the way :-)
I just make sure that they have enough space (I add some extra bars)
And maybe: If they have enough honey I collect some honey in the next
spring. (when there is a flow of nectar)
The only thing I do is: I catch the swarms. (But not all of them)

In my opinion: That's the best pest treatment the bees can get. All
natural. Also: the natural broodgap is in my opinion also very good to
prevent the varroapopulation from growing. Mother Nature will do the
rest by ruthlessly selecting all the genetically inferior (or:
not-so-well-adapted) bloodlines. In the words of Friedrich Ruttner:
separating the Poodles from the Woolfs.

Tjerk van der Meché
Beekeeper
(near Amsterdam, Holland)

#76 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:57 am
Subject: Re: Friedrich Ruttner / separating the Poodles from the Wolfs!
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Tjerk,
 
Glad you found that useful.  I love your characterization: separating the Poodles from the Wolfs!  Spot on!
 
I've found some more similar stuff in other older books on bee breeding and honey farming, and I'll copy out the relevant parts as and when I have time and post them here, and also put them on a new page on my website.  If anyone comes across passages that make clear statements about the necessity of breeding bees against pests and diseases, I'd be grateful for details. 
 
Glad to hear you are making progress.  I too have been busy making increase, collecting swarms and extracting nests, and have 12 colonies ready for the test of winter.  Early in the year I made contact with a couple of local pest controllers, and they seem very happy to let me deal with their bee problems. Usually they collect a fee and I get the bees, and everybody is happy.  I've picked up 4 nests that were well established, and these, it seems very likely, have good mite tolerance.  I've noticed that I have had three calls from the same area in one town, and my guess is that this is a small recovering feral population.  All these bees seem perfectly well behaved (so far).  Next year I will have an advert running, and should pick up lots more.  And I'll start evaluating for mite tolerance and selecting the strongest for increase.  Till then, absolutely no treatments or manipulations - just feeding to help the small ones establish and overwinter.
 
Like you I've had problems with robbing.  I've found a few things that help, and now seem to be able to feed without problems.  I use slow feeders (glass jars with 5 holes punched through the lid using a frame nail).  I always allow the syrup to cool, as warm syrup makes them over-exited and broadcasts the treasure to all and sundry.  I place the jars on at dusk, when they've stopped flying, and reduce the entrances to a crack - enough to allow one bee each way. It seems to me that those colonies that have bees on frames right by the entrance have an advantage over those whose nest is away from the entrance, which tends to be only lightly guarded until they've built up a bit.  Wasps were difficult too for a while, but reducing entrances and putting out a number of jar-traps seems to have reduced them to an occasional nuisance.
 
Best to All,
 
Mike
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hello Mike,

thank you for the info.
________________________________

Just a quick note to introduce myself to the other group members. I am
a Dutch beekeeper since summer 2009.
To me it's very clear that we (as a beekeeper) should support natural
selection by doing nothing. This is risky and we need some courage to
do this. I lost allready two colonies due to the bad summer. I wanted
to feed them but the other colonies instantly started robbing. So I
quit feeding. The two colonies died two weeks ago. But I'm  not sad
about it because it makes room for the other colonies: more flowers,
nectar and pollen for the survivors!. The article you send us supports
me in my basically-doing-nothing-method. And let's face it: Mother
Nature knows what she does!

The funny thing is that this Friedrich Ruttner writes about dogs
(Woolf versus Poodle) and that is the same example I use when I
discuss my "method" with other people.

I still have 6 or 7 colonies to go through this winter. Let's see what happens.

I followed your (Mike) advise:
1 I want to go as far as 10 colonies to compensate for the heavy loss of bees.
2 A friend and I founded a small beebreeding group so (maybe for next
season) we will have about twenty colonies to compensate the heavy
losses of bees.
3 I will go after that (forty year old) feral stock swarming around in
our small village. The seem to do good this season! I'll stay
connected with the lady who lives there. She will warn me when she
sees a swarm coming.

I allready wrote you about it but I would like to share my ideas about
beekeeping with the other Yahoo-group members:

This is my "method":

I do not treat our bees means that I do not treat our bees in any way.
I have two top bar hives. And a couple of other small nucs. All made
form natural materials. 100% poison free and breathable stuff. (wood,
clay, cowdung) I do not treat.
I don't use waxfoundation.
I do not make splits.
I do not collect honey.
I do not disturb the broodnest.
They swarm all the way :-)
I just make sure that they have enough space (I add some extra bars)
And maybe: If they have enough honey I collect some honey in the next
spring. (when there is a flow of nectar)
The only thing I do is: I catch the swarms. (But not all of them)

In my opinion: That's the best pest treatment the bees can get. All
natural. Also: the natural broodgap is in my opinion also very good to
prevent the varroapopulation from growing. Mother Nature will do the
rest by ruthlessly selecting all the genetically inferior (or:
not-so-well-adapted) bloodlines. In the words of Friedrich Ruttner:
separating the Poodles from the Woolfs.

Tjerk van der Meché
Beekeeper
(near Amsterdam, Holland)

#77 From: Kathryn Marsh <kmarsh@...>
Date: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:25 am
Subject: Re: Re: Friedrich Ruttner / separating the Poodles from the Wolfs!
kathryn_litt...
Send Email Send Email
 
I've had lures out all summer here and hardly seen a honey bee in the garden -
not a single one on a large comfrey bed or an extensive borage plantation so I'm
assuming there has been no recovery yet in our once thriving feral population.
However, there were a lot more around in a friend's garden about ten miles away
despite no local bee keepers so I'm going to set up an empty top bar hive with
lures there from the start of next season and see what happens, along with
another one here.

I had two colonies from nukes in a friend's garden about forty miles away, along
with her own, but foul brood hit the area so they had to be destroyed.

I remember my uncle using that method to deter wasps back in the fifties.

kathryn

On 21 Sep 2011, at 08:57, mikebispham@... wrote:

>
>
> Hello Tjerk,
>
> Glad you found that useful.  I love your characterization: separating the
Poodles from the Wolfs!  Spot on!
>
> I've found some more similar stuff in other older books on bee breeding and
honey farming, and I'll copy out the relevant parts as and when I have time and
post them here, and also put them on a new page on my website.  If anyone comes
across passages that make clear statements about the necessity of breeding bees
against pests and diseases, I'd be grateful for details.
>
> Glad to hear you are making progress.  I too have been busy making increase,
collecting swarms and extracting nests, and have 12 colonies ready for the test
of winter.  Early in the year I made contact with a couple of local pest
controllers, and they seem very happy to let me deal with their bee problems.
Usually they collect a fee and I get the bees, and everybody is happy.  I've
picked up 4 nests that were well established, and these, it seems very likely,
have good mite tolerance.  I've noticed that I have had three calls from the
same area in one town, and my guess is that this is a small recovering feral
population.  All these bees seem perfectly well behaved (so far).  Next year I
will have an advert running, and should pick up lots more.  And I'll start
evaluating for mite tolerance and selecting the strongest for increase.  Till
then, absolutely no treatments or manipulations - just feeding to help the small
ones establish and overwinter.
>
> Like you I've had problems with robbing.  I've found a few things that help,
and now seem to be able to feed without problems.  I use slow feeders (glass
jars with 5 holes punched through the lid using a frame nail).  I always allow
the syrup to cool, as warm syrup makes them over-exited and broadcasts the
treasure to all and sundry.  I place the jars on at dusk, when they've stopped
flying, and reduce the entrances to a crack - enough to allow one bee each way.
It seems to me that those colonies that have bees on frames right by the
entrance have an advantage over those whose nest is away from the entrance,
which tends to be only lightly guarded until they've built up a bit.  Wasps were
difficult too for a while, but reducing entrances and putting out a number of
jar-traps seems to have reduced them to an occasional nuisance.
>
> Best to All,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Mike,
>
> thank you for the info.
> ________________________________
>
> Just a quick note to introduce myself to the other group members. I am
> a Dutch beekeeper since summer 2009.
> To me it's very clear that we (as a beekeeper) should support natural
> selection by doing nothing. This is risky and we need some courage to
> do this. I lost allready two colonies due to the bad summer. I wanted
> to feed them but the other colonies instantly started robbing. So I
> quit feeding. The two colonies died two weeks ago. But I'm  not sad
> about it because it makes room for the other colonies: more flowers,
> nectar and pollen for the survivors!. The article you send us supports
> me in my basically-doing-nothing-method. And let's face it: Mother
> Nature knows what she does!
>
> The funny thing is that this Friedrich Ruttner writes about dogs
> (Woolf versus Poodle) and that is the same example I use when I
> discuss my "method" with other people.
>
> I still have 6 or 7 colonies to go through this winter. Let's see what
happens.
>
> I followed your (Mike) advise:
> 1 I want to go as far as 10 colonies to compensate for the heavy loss of bees.
> 2 A friend and I founded a small beebreeding group so (maybe for next
> season) we will have about twenty colonies to compensate the heavy
> losses of bees.
> 3 I will go after that (forty year old) feral stock swarming around in
> our small village. The seem to do good this season! I'll stay
> connected with the lady who lives there. She will warn me when she
> sees a swarm coming.
>
> I allready wrote you about it but I would like to share my ideas about
> beekeeping with the other Yahoo-group members:
>
> This is my "method":
>
> I do not treat our bees means that I do not treat our bees in any way.
> I have two top bar hives. And a couple of other small nucs. All made
> form natural materials. 100% poison free and breathable stuff. (wood,
> clay, cowdung) I do not treat.
> I don't use waxfoundation.
> I do not make splits.
> I do not collect honey.
> I do not disturb the broodnest.
> They swarm all the way :-)
> I just make sure that they have enough space (I add some extra bars)
> And maybe: If they have enough honey I collect some honey in the next
> spring. (when there is a flow of nectar)
> The only thing I do is: I catch the swarms. (But not all of them)
>
> In my opinion: That's the best pest treatment the bees can get. All
> natural. Also: the natural broodgap is in my opinion also very good to
> prevent the varroapopulation from growing. Mother Nature will do the
> rest by ruthlessly selecting all the genetically inferior (or:
> not-so-well-adapted) bloodlines. In the words of Friedrich Ruttner:
> separating the Poodles from the Woolfs.
>
> Tjerk van der Meché
> Beekeeper
> (near Amsterdam, Holland)
>
>
>

#78 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:12 pm
Subject: Sourcing bees
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Kathryn,
 
You might try contacting local pest controllers.  I've got most of mine that way, though I leave my number with local councils too and pick up a few that way.  I got a swarm into a lure a few years ago, but nothing since.  Have you checked out Joe Waggle's pages for advice on luring bees?  I got fed up with getting nothing, and more proactive.
 
Mike
 
 
 
I've had lures out all summer here and hardly seen a honey bee in the garden - not a single one on a large comfrey bed or an extensive borage plantation so I'm assuming there has been no recovery yet in our once thriving feral population. However, there were a lot more around in a friend's garden about ten miles away despite no local bee keepers so I'm going to set up an empty top bar hive with lures there from the start of next season and see what happens, along with another one here.

I had two colonies from nukes in a friend's garden about forty miles away, along with her own, but foul brood hit the area so they had to be destroyed.

I remember my uncle using that method to deter wasps back in the fifties.

kathryn

#79 From: "Mike" <mikebispham@...>
Date: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:28 am
Subject: John Kefuss
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
I've just turned up something I've been looking for for ages - information about
John Kufuss' background and methods.

http://opensourcelife.wikispaces.com/+Kefuss

Very good reading

Mike

--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, Tjerk van der Meché
<t.vandermeche@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Mike,
>
> thank you for the info.
> ________________________________
>
> Just a quick note to introduce myself to the other group members. I am
> a Dutch beekeeper since summer 2009.
> To me it's very clear that we (as a beekeeper) should support natural
> selection by doing nothing. This is risky and we need some courage to
> do this. I lost allready two colonies due to the bad summer. I wanted
> to feed them but the other colonies instantly started robbing. So I
> quit feeding. The two colonies died two weeks ago. But I'm  not sad
> about it because it makes room for the other colonies: more flowers,
> nectar and pollen for the survivors!. The article you send us supports
> me in my basically-doing-nothing-method. And let's face it: Mother
> Nature knows what she does!
>
> The funny thing is that this Friedrich Ruttner writes about dogs
> (Woolf versus Poodle) and that is the same example I use when I
> discuss my "method" with other people.
>
> I still have 6 or 7 colonies to go through this winter. Let's see what
happens.
>
> I followed your (Mike) advise:
> 1 I want to go as far as 10 colonies to compensate for the heavy loss of bees.
> 2 A friend and I founded a small beebreeding group so (maybe for next
> season) we will have about twenty colonies to compensate the heavy
> losses of bees.
> 3 I will go after that (forty year old) feral stock swarming around in
> our small village. The seem to do good this season! I'll stay
> connected with the lady who lives there. She will warn me when she
> sees a swarm coming.
>
> I allready wrote you about it but I would like to share my ideas about
> beekeeping with the other Yahoo-group members:
>
> This is my "method":
>
> I do not treat our bees means that I do not treat our bees in any way.
> I have two top bar hives. And a couple of other small nucs. All made
> form natural materials. 100% poison free and breathable stuff. (wood,
> clay, cowdung) I do not treat.
> I don't use waxfoundation.
> I do not make splits.
> I do not collect honey.
> I do not disturb the broodnest.
> They swarm all the way :-)
> I just make sure that they have enough space (I add some extra bars)
> And maybe: If they have enough honey I collect some honey in the next
> spring. (when there is a flow of nectar)
> The only thing I do is: I catch the swarms. (But not all of them)
>
> In my opinion: That's the best pest treatment the bees can get. All
> natural. Also: the natural broodgap is in my opinion also very good to
> prevent the varroapopulation from growing. Mother Nature will do the
> rest by ruthlessly selecting all the genetically inferior (or:
> not-so-well-adapted) bloodlines. In the words of Friedrich Ruttner:
> separating the Poodles from the Woolfs.
>
> Tjerk van der Meché
> Beekeeper
> (near Amsterdam, Holland)
>

#80 From: Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...>
Date: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: John Kefuss
t.vandermeche@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Mike (and all group members),

I have a couple of questions for you and the groupmembers.

1 The info about Natural Selection and the Honeybee is apparently not so easy to find on the web. All the info about Natural Selection I found is basically on your website. (thanks for that Mike!)
Is that true? Am I right?

2 I have been thinking to make the info more public. Maybe on a more social website (such as facebook)
Is there someone with similar ideas? Maybe someone who wants to help?
 
Tjerk

#81 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:18 am
Subject: Re: Re: John Kefuss
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
You are quite right Tjerk.  While other sources are there, we are massively crowded out by bad information, endless news stories and so on.  On the newsgroups its the same - and often intense hostility to discussion of the genetic mechanisms that lie behind the health problem.  The profile of the issue has to be raised on the net.  Just how we go about that I don't know.  Each in our own way I guess.  Mine is 'hammer away, regardless' : )
 
I've recently been using the texts of Manley and Rutter - who are small gods to anyone who knows their bee history - to demonstrate the importance of proper breeding, and that seems a useful tack. 
 
Mike

#82 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:25 am
Subject: Establishing the Facts and Making the Arguments
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
In case its useful to anyone here I've copied below an edited section from a private conversation I've been having with publisher of a bee magazine - of sorts.  I decded to have a go because I think the bee publications do a great deal of harm by endlessly reporting problems and research, without acknowledging the biological facts that reveal that a huge part of the problem is hopelessly inadequate husbandry due to  neglecting the essential stage of systematic breeding for health (and worse of course - treatments result in systematic breeding for treatment-dependence - in other words, ill health).
 
It seems to me that in some cases it is likely that the editors are simply ignorant of the relevant facts.  In this case the person is struggling to take on board the notion that there can be biological facts.  I think its important to try to encourage such influential people to review their approach - though I'm not at all sure I possess the diplomatic skill for that job.
 
Mike
 
('Id asked: "do you subscribe to the idea that what I have outlined is, as I've claimed factual - that failure to propagate selectively must, inevitably, lead to unhealthy stock?")
 
>I try to stay away from the words "must" and  "inevitably."  <
 
So you say:
 
'it isn't true that a car 'must' have fuel to go'? 
 
It isn't 'inevitable' that if you run out of petrol the car won't go?
 
Two blue-eyed parents carrying only blue-eye genes can only have blue-eyed children.  'Must' and 'inevitable' also apply here.  To bring out the strength of that statement: depite millions of observation there has never been a case observed of that event having occured, and if there was we wouldn't know how to explain it.  Its currently true - factual - to the tune of millions verses none.
 
Sorry to be a pain here[...], but the facts of inherited traits are just that - facts.  You could ask any breeder of any organic lifeform. 
 
That these things are widely unrecognised in beekeeping has lead to the situation where a casual approach to propagation is common.  The result is widespread ill-health. 
 
Yet look among the most authoritive sources - Manley, or Ruttner, for example.  Beekeepers traditionally raise new stock _only_ from the best among the current stock.  They select in _every generation_ for the most vigourous and healthy - even before they select for things like productivity, calmness and gentleness.
 
These things are recognised in small corners of modern beekeeping - but the voices are drowned by those who don't comprehend the imperitive need to breed well - to perform husbandry in its most basic sense - the husbanding of the genes down the generations. 
 
> There's  often much we don't know about biological systems and how they function.<
 
Sure; but there is a great deal we do know.  We know, for example that if don't feed an organism it must die.  Inevitably.  We know that if you bleed it enough it also dies.  We know that if you don't feed it sufficiently well, it won't thrive.  We know tens, hundreds of thousands of such things.  And we know them well enough to regard them as facts.
 
We also know that if you don't breed a population, selecting only the healthiest individuals as parents in each generation, the population weakens.  We know how, and why this happens.  We know that nature does this all the time, as the weakest die, the middling healthy reproduce in small numbers, and the strongest reproduce in the greatest number.  And we know that keepers of livestock copy this process, by deliberately and systematically selecting only the best for parents in each generation, and keeping the weak well away from the breeding pool. 
 
> Science also doesn't deal in these words; there is always a gray area<
 
Not so.  Science establishes _working facts_.  It then treats them logically to theorise, and tests the theory, repeatedly, with experiments.  A great many basic facts concerning biological reproduction have been established for a long time, and have been tested to exhaustion.  Among them are much relating to the mechanics and rationales of sexual reproduction.
 
This is not to say _everything_ is known - there is always more to learn, since nature is almost infinitely complex.  But it is to say: we can safely regard some statements as accurately referring to very deeply established facts, through a combination of deeply considered rationale and all but exhaustive observations.  In this catagory belong: 'cars need fuel to go'; and 'populations must be bred for health in order to remain healthy.'
 
In the case of breeding requirements, the basic facts are simple and straightforward.  They've been known for thousands of years - there are even references in the Bible.  All breeders work to same principles.  In the medieval expression that guided farmers and monks: 'put only best to best'.  Those farmers that follow this principle tend to thrive; those ignorant of it tend to fail. 
 
Best,
 
Mike
 
-- 
 
You are quite right Tjerk.  While other sources are there, we are massively crowded out by bad information, endless news stories and so on.  On the newsgroups its the same - and often intense hostility to discussion of the genetic mechanisms that lie behind the health problem.  The profile of the issue has to be raised on the net.  Just how we go about that I don't know.  Each in our own way I guess.  Mine is 'hammer away, regardless' : )
 
I've recently been using the texts of Manley and Rutter - who are small gods to anyone who knows their bee history - to demonstrate the importance of proper breeding, and that seems a useful tack. 
 
Mike
 
--
 
Hello Mike (and all group members),

I have a couple of questions for you and the groupmembers.

1 The info about Natural Selection and the Honeybee is apparently not so easy to find on the web. All the info about Natural Selection I found is basically on your website. (thanks for that Mike!)
Is that true? Am I right?

2 I have been thinking to make the info more public. Maybe on a more social website (such as facebook)
Is there someone with similar ideas? Maybe someone who wants to help?
 
Tjerk

#83 From: Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...>
Date: Tue Dec 6, 2011 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: Establishing the Facts and Making the Arguments
t.vandermeche@...
Send Email Send Email
 

Hello Mike and all,


Information about natural selection and the honeybee is hard to find on the internet. There is no platform, there is no organization.

I think we have to create a platform on our own. It seems to me there is no other option.


I decided to give it a try. I created a facebookpage about Natural Selection and the Honeybee. Why facebook? I think that a lot of new (young) beekeepers have a facebookaccount. There are 80 million facebookmemebers worldwide! So I would like to promote "natural selection and the honeybee" on this socialmedium. If you are a member of facebook; please take a look and search for natural selection and the honeybee.


Facebook is not just a page. You need the network to spread the word. That means: I need a lot of "friends" to build a network and to spread the info. Also I am currently writing topics. May be some of you want to react on this? Please sent me an invitation from your facebook page. Then we can connect.


So:

 

WHO wants to be ´FRIEND` of the facebookpage - Natural Selection and the Honeybee- ? Please mail me your facebooknames so we can connect.

 


 

Yes: It is indeed hard to challenge the status quo. I am afraid we are running out of time. Something has to be done. I decided to give it a try.

Yours cincerly,
Tjerk

#84 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 7:39 am
Subject: Re: Re: Establishing the Facts and Makin...
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Well done Tjerk,
 
I'll see you there!
 
Mike

#85 From: OOWONBS@...
Date: Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:48 pm
Subject: Re: Establishing the Facts and Making the Arguments
billsf9c
Send Email Send Email
 
>May be some of you want to react on this?
Please sent me an invitation from your facebook page.
Tjerk

BEST of luck...
That said, it was literally yesterday, that in responce(s) to a similar issue,
(though chickens,) I posted info for the unfortunate members, how to get
OFF of FaceBook. I got spam invites of dating and etc. All from posting
once, years ago, about the plight of bees.

BillSF9c


#86 From: "Sasha" <mrkflux@...>
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:41 am
Subject: Re: John Kefuss
frogkailo
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi guys, nice to see that someone found this useful, as I 've put it there (its
my wiki page). but of course it was written by someone else and the original
file can be found here:http://survivorstockqueens.org/

Sasha Mrkailo, Serbia


--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, "Mike"
<mikebispham@...> wrote:
>
> I've just turned up something I've been looking for for ages - information
about John Kufuss' background and methods.
>
> http://opensourcelife.wikispaces.com/+Kefuss
>
> Very good reading
>
> Mike
>

#87 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:36 am
Subject: Re: John Kefuss
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks for that Sasha,
 
Mike
 
Hi guys, nice to see that someone found this useful, as I 've put it there (its my wiki page). but of course it was written by someone else and the original file can be found here:http://survivorstockqueens.org/

Sasha Mrkailo, Serbia

--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikebispham@...> wrote:
>
> I've just turned up something I've been looking for for ages - information about John Kufuss' background and methods.
>
> http://opensourcelife.wikispaces.com/+Kefuss
>
> Very good reading
>
> Mike

#88 From: Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...>
Date: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:44 am
Subject: Re: John Kefuss
t.vandermeche@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Sacha, (and all)
 
thanks for the info. I read the site and I read the HIP breeder protocol. I do not agree on the HIP breeder protocol because they treat with Apistan. The protocol wants to do two things:
1 select the best colonies and not to treat them and
2 on the other hand "save" the rest of the colonies with Apistan treatment.
 
Our main goal should be: selecting out. That means: select the best and let the other colonies die.
 
How to select?
In my opinion: mother nature will in the end come up with the best. It's just a matter of time. The colonies that do not make it will collapse. I do accelerate the process. I do not feed them. (and I do not take any honey too)
That means: only the colonies that are strong enough will make it. That are the colonies that "fit" in to local environment. They are adapted to the Dutch climate and the Dutch flowers. I mean: why on earth should I try to save the Italian bee in Holland?
I had some colonies flying at zeven degrees Celcius. Bringing pollen to the hive. They will make it. (hopefully) The other colonies flew at twelve degrees Celsius. They apparently do not like the Dutch summer and the wet climate. They won't make it.
 
All I do is catch the swarms of what is left in the next saison. And set up a new hive. Let them build there own comb. And I do not disturb in any way...
Tjerk
 
Please note: I lost five of seven colonies. I do have two colonies still 'up and running'
It looks like we will not get things changed without making our hands dirty. So be it.
 

#89 From: "Sasha" <mrkflux@...>
Date: Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:27 pm
Subject: Re: John Kefuss
frogkailo
Send Email Send Email
 
I think there is an easier way. Why dont you split them in late summer, get two
nucs and then make new colonies from them in the next year? You get two things
with this. First you get swarms, which will replace the colonies you lose during
the winter, second for some reason bees have much better chance to survive in
small nucs, which will give you time to develop more resistance or better said
varroa tolerance. Loosing bees constantly is no fun. I have done it. It breaks
your heart.
That is my plan, and is what people like Kirk Webster are doing. Hint: Kirk has
a great website. Lock him if interested.
PS: there is a beekeeper in Serbia who claims he hasn't treated varroa for 20
years. He says varroa problem is solved. Still he is very afraid of nosema
cerana.  Check his video:
http://youtu.be/xSGa9DKraGA

Varroa is just one of the issues. Others will follow. Life is a constant flux...
Merry Christmas!

Sasha

--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, Tjerk van der Meché
<t.vandermeche@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Sacha, (and all)
>
> thanks for the info. I read the site and I read the HIP breeder protocol. I
> do not agree on the HIP breeder protocol because they treat with
> Apistan. The protocol wants to do two things:
> 1 select the best colonies and not to treat them and
> 2 on the other hand "save" the rest of the colonies with Apistan treatment.
>
> Our main goal should be: *selecting out*. That means: select the best and
> let the other colonies die.
>
> How to select?
> In my opinion: mother nature will in the end come up with the best. It's
> just a matter of time. The colonies that do not make it will collapse. I do
> accelerate the process. I do not feed them. (and I do not take any honey
> too)
> That means: only the colonies that are strong enough will make it. That are
> the colonies that "fit" in to local environment. They are adapted to the
> Dutch climate and the Dutch flowers. I mean: why on earth should I try to
> save the Italian bee in Holland?
> I had some colonies flying at zeven degrees Celcius. Bringing pollen to the
> hive. *They will make it*. (hopefully) The other colonies flew at twelve
> degrees Celsius. They apparently do not like the Dutch summer and the wet
> climate. They won't make it.
>
> All I do is catch the swarms of what is left in the next saison. And set up
> a new hive. Let them build there own comb. And I do not disturb in any
> way...
> Tjerk
>
> Please note: I lost five of seven colonies. I do have two colonies still
> 'up and running'
> It looks like we will not get things changed without making our hands
> dirty. So be it.
>

#90 From: mikebispham@...
Date: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:13 am
Subject: Re: John Kefuss/overwintering in nucs strategy
mikebispham
Send Email Send Email
 
I'm no expert at this, but I'd tend toward making nucs in the early part of the year as much as possible.  Partly this is because I'm short of comb, aware that building comb is an expensive business for young colonies, and not overkeen on giving them sugar to help out.  I'd like to see strong and well stocked nucs that have built themselves up through the summer go into winter.  I'll give them room as they can use it, but they have to do the work as a swarm building a new nest would.  Those that don't have the right work ethic will fall - maybe through requeening.
 
There is also the point that splitting large colonies gives an unnatural advantage - nucs do better against varroa, but we want full colonies of bees that do well, producing masses of good drones to bring through the genes on the male side.  Perhaps overwintering its a good strategy to be making the transition, particularly while building up numbers, but I think we should aim for bees that don't need this sort of interference as quickly as possible.
 
I want to avoid Tjerk's situation, of running back to square one each winter, by building a big buffer quickly, and taking a measure of control of local genetics by having my drones dominate.  I'd like to go into next winter with 25-35 colonies in a range of boxes. 
 
Thanks for the tip toward Kirk Webster Sasha - I agree he has a great attitude.
 
Mike
 
 
I think there is an easier way. Why dont you split them in late summer, get two nucs and then make new colonies from them in the next year? You get two things with this. First you get swarms, which will replace the colonies you lose during the winter, second for some reason bees have much better chance to survive in small nucs, which will give you time to develop more resistance or better said varroa tolerance. Loosing bees constantly is no fun. I have done it. It breaks your heart.
That is my plan, and is what people like Kirk Webster are doing. Hint: Kirk has a great website. Lock him if interested.
PS: there is a beekeeper in Serbia who claims he hasn't treated varroa for 20 years. He says varroa problem is solved. Still he is very afraid of nosema cerana. Check his video:
http://youtu.be/xSGa9DKraGA

Varroa is just one of the issues. Others will follow. Life is a constant flux...
Merry Christmas!

Sasha

--- In Natural_Selection_and_the_Honeybee@yahoogroups.com, Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Sacha, (and all)
>
> thanks for the info. I read the site and I read the HIP breeder protocol. I
> do not agree on the HIP breeder protocol because they treat with
> Apistan. The protocol wants to do two things:
> 1 select the best colonies and not to treat them and
> 2 on the other hand "save" the rest of the colonies with Apistan treatment.
>
> Our main goal should be: *selecting out*. That means: select the best and
> let the other colonies die.
>
> How to select?
> In my opinion: mother nature will in the end come up with the best. It's
> just a matter of time. The colonies that do not make it will collapse. I do
> accelerate the process. I do not feed them. (and I do not take any honey
> too)
> That means: only the colonies that are strong enough will make it. That are
> the colonies that "fit" in to local environment. They are adapted to the
> Dutch climate and the Dutch flowers. I mean: why on earth should I try to
> save the Italian bee in Holland?
> I had some colonies flying at zeven degrees Celcius. Bringing pollen to the
> hive. *They will make it*. (hopefully) The other colonies flew at twelve
> degrees Celsius. They apparently do not like the Dutch summer and the wet
> climate. They won't make it.
>
> All I do is catch the swarms of what is left in the next saison. And set up
> a new hive. Let them build there own comb. And I do not disturb in any
> way...
> Tjerk
>
> Please note: I lost five of seven colonies. I do have two colonies still
> 'up and running'
> It looks like we will not get things changed without making our hands
> dirty. So be it.

#91 From: Tjerk van der Meché <t.vandermeche@...>
Date: Tue Jan 3, 2012 9:00 am
Subject: Re: John Kefuss/overwintering in nucs strategy
t.vandermeche@...
Send Email Send Email
 

Hello Sacha and Mike,

 

I also tend to start with nucs as early in the season as possible. So that they have time to settle and build up a strong colony. But I did not create the nucs. I decided to wait for the swarms to come. I think that a swarm has the best chances to build a new nest.

 I do agree that I run a great risk of falling back to zero each season. I agree on the point that the good drones should dominate. Hopefully the next season will be better.

I lost so many colonies due to the bad season in 2011. I could have saved them by starting to feed sugar, but I decided not to do it. When I feed one or two I do have to feed them all to prevent robbing. Second: I think that colonies that are not active enough may also do not harvest enough pollen. I can save them with sugar but in the end the offspring will not get enough protein…

Best wishes for 2012

Tjerk

PS I created an account on facebook. Search for: Natural Selection and the Honeybee

Or: Honeybees Matter

 


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