Skip to search.
Nostratic-L

Group Information

? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Fw: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European   Message List  
Reply Message #9964 of 10064 |
I think this says it all.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Allan Bomhard <arbomhard@...>
To: Brian Zeisberger <bzeisberger@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European

Brian:

I had hoped to stay out of the fray on this, but I see that it is not going to be possible.  I will not enter into a long discussion about this matter but will make a simple statement and let it go at that.

The Hurrian project was challenging when I was working on it with Arnaud, but, as time has passed and I have had a chance to think more on these issues, I have changed my mind.  I no longer support any of the theories advanced or conclusions drawn in that work.

Allan


From: Brian Zeisberger <bzeisberger@...>
To: "arbomhard@..." <arbomhard@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:50 PM
Subject: Fw: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European

I would very much like to get your reaction to my latest posting on the Nostratic list.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Brian Zeisberger <bzeisberger@...>
To: "Nostratic-L@yahoogroups.com" <Nostratic-L@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Nostratic-L] Hurrian & Indo-European

 
I have just read, with great interest, the manuscript by Arnaud Fournet and Allan Bomhard entitled The Indo-European Elements in Hurrian.  It is available as a PDF download from the Russian Nostratic website.  For some reason (never satisfactorily explained), the work deals only with Hurrian, mostly ignoring the closely related Urartian.  Also not discussed is the alternative theory put forth by Diakonoff and Starostin that sees Hurro-Urartian as a Northeast Caucasian language.  These omissions are disturbing.  I would like to offer a few comments about this work.
 
My overall impression is that the work is a piece of inferior scholarship, and that is being generous.  It is clear from the work that two authors were involved, and it is not too difficult to figure out who did what.  The chapter dealing with phonology, writing systems, and texts could only have been written by Fournet.  This is evident from the writing style and English usage as well as from the ideas expressed.  The ideas about Hurrian phonology are so far removed from what has come to be the accepted views (see Speiser 1941, Wegner 2007, and Wilhelm 2004a cited in the references at the end of the work for details) that they can only be described as “crackpot”.  Highly problematic interpretations are put forth as though they were standard points of view, without a single shred of credible evidence to back them up.  It may be likened in scholarship to the kind of term paper one receives from undergraduate students who have just come off a weekend of heavy partying, drinking, and drugging.
 
The three chapters dealing with morphology do, in fact, appear to be a joint effort.  They are much more in agreement with established views (see again, the works cited above for details about Hurrian), especially on the Indo-European side.  The attempt to compare Hurrian morphology with that of Proto-Indo-European does contain some interesting ideas.  However, what is disturbing is the fact that counter-evidence is totally ignored, as is the evidence marshaled by Diakonoff and Starostin to support their alternative theory. 
 
The Hurrian vocabulary is based mostly on the work of Laroche, with some additions taken from other sources.  As written, it can pass muster.
 
The chapter on the comparison of the lexicons of Hurrian and Indo-European could only have been prepared by Bomhard, since it is similar to other work he has authored.  This chapter has to be judged substandard compared to other work that Bomhard has produced.  It shows that he has an excellent understanding of the Indo-European data but not a good handle on the Hurrian.  At best, the data examined in this chapter points to possible contact between Hurrian and one or more Indo-European languages.  Moreover, when when digs deeply into the rest of the work, one can see that Bomhard does not use Fournet's theories regarding Hurrian phonology in presenting the Hurrian lexical data.  Does this point to disagreement between the two authors?  Was a subtle rejection of Fournet's theories built into the work itself?
 
Hurrian is unambiguously NOT an Indo-European daughter language.  Nor can we say, on the basis of this work, that Hurrian and Indo-European are genetically related in any way, shape, or form.
 
For more information, see the devastating review of this work by Alexei Kassian in Journal of Language Relationship, issue 4 (2010), pp. 199-206.  The rebuttal (prepared mostly, it seems, by Fournet), which appeared in the next issue of the same journal, is more of a “rant” than a genuine rebuttal.








Sat Aug 6, 2011 9:00 pm

bzeisberger
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Message #9964 of 10064 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

I think this says it all. ... From: Allan Bomhard <arbomhard@...> To: Brian Zeisberger <bzeisberger@...> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 4:57 PM ...
Brian Zeisberger
bzeisberger Offline Send Email
Aug 6, 2011
9:00 pm

... *** Amazing. Is this a fake mail by Allan Bomhard ? Or is this man really such an incredible unspeakable piece of double-speak **** ?? I cannot believe any...
Arnaud
afyangh Offline Send Email
Aug 6, 2011
11:42 pm

What I am trying to do is teach you a little humility.  You should not be so quick to dismiss and criticize others and their work when your own work is of...
Brian Zeisberger
bzeisberger Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
5:41 am

... *** I don't need your "teachings", least of all coming from some toxic troll like you. A. ... *** I've written a paper for the Armenian Journal of Near...
Arnaud
afyangh Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
7:27 am

Arrogance, intolerance, toxicity, deprecation, bullying, and incompetence seem to be the hallmarks of this list. First one person, now two. Sorry, Arnaud,...
Brian Zeisberger
bzeisberger Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
10:31 am

... *** I definitely know what a troll is, and you are just behaving like a troll. There's an interesting paper by another well-known internet troll on trolls:...
Arnaud
afyangh Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
10:59 am

________________________________ From: Brian Zeisberger <bzeisberger@...> To: "Nostratic-L@yahoogroups.com" <Nostratic-L@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday,...
Rick McCallister
gabaroo6958 Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
9:24 pm

... *** He does not even see that he's insulting somebody he claims to defend... A. ... Le 07/08/2011 23:24, Rick McCallister a écrit : From: Brian...
Arnaud
afyangh Offline Send Email
Aug 7, 2011
9:53 pm
Advanced

Copyright 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines NEW - Help