Bostjan,

I have been following your plight, and really sorry to hear this latest
awful news for you. Perhaps this is the problem when people with limited
technical understanding become regulators.

Your story has hit some of the professional photography mailing lists in
the UK, so more and more people are aware of your situation.

Does the Information Commissioner of Slovenia define precisely the
boundary between a stills photograph and a "Virtual Reality Panorama"?
Perhaps there is some way to fall outside of their definition e.g. if
they mention 360x180 then produce a 360x179 degree panorama.

How do they intend to check that you have deleted the source files?
Surely these qualify as ordinary stills anyway? Can you store them
online or mail a hard disk of images abroad?

Don't let them do this to you!

Best wishes,
Rob
--

Bostjan Burger wrote:
>
>
> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
> panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data.

--
Robert Slade, Photographer
Manor Photography 07890 564889
http://www.manor-photography.com

She didn't define. I have explained on the meeting that VR panorama is not
necessary a 360°. Then she reacted that acctually all images of people when are
published on internet and are not part of event are not (quite) legal. Important
difference is that VR panorama is a data collection.
IC told us that she has not only jurisdiction in Slovenia - BUT (!) also on the
teritory of European Union (!) - that was on the public and documented meeting
last Thursday. According to decree: I am not allowed to transfer or move
original, source images of my panoramas or unblurred panoramas out of the
country.
I have taken my camera to the public meeting and shot a panorama after my
introduction of the problem and durning the speech of Ms. IC. All word, claims,
stories e.t.c are recorded with almost 2 hours of sound... as there was no
foreign journalists the talk was only in Slovene, but it is at least documented-
this one is allowed as it is an
event: http://www.burger.si/DOGODKI/2011_IP/vrp.html . 
Documenting events is still allowed but who can guarantee me that maybe
"tomorrow" is going to be illegal... what is important decision of IC is also
retroactive.

:) Boštjan



________________________________
From: Robert Slade <robert@...>
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Information commissioner: very final !



Bostjan,

I have been following your plight, and really sorry to hear this latest
awful news for you. Perhaps this is the problem when people with limited
technical understanding become regulators.

Your story has hit some of the professional photography mailing lists in
the UK, so more and more people are aware of your situation.

Does the Information Commissioner of Slovenia define precisely the
boundary between a stills photograph and a "Virtual Reality Panorama"?
Perhaps there is some way to fall outside of their definition e.g. if
they mention 360x180 then produce a 360x179 degree panorama.

How do they intend to check that you have deleted the source files?
Surely these qualify as ordinary stills anyway? Can you store them
online or mail a hard disk of images abroad?

Don't let them do this to you!

Best wishes,
Rob
--

Bostjan Burger wrote:
>
>
> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
> panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data.

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
>
> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data. As a database it is
under her jurisdiction. Such photography is illegal to be published on the
internet unless it is with the blurred face. Published Virtual reality panorama
with not blurred faces is legal only in case that the publisher has a written
permit of all people on the panorama. The source images from which panorama were
stitched need to be unrecoverable deleted e.g. destroyed.
> What about other images published on the internet? That is not a data
collection but it doesn’t mean that the publisher is without the
responsibility. To be “safe”, the publisher (photographer, videographer)
needs to get (ex-post) the permit every individual documented on the image.
> That decree is valid for all images taken on the territory of Republic of
Slovenia and retroactive (no time limit for the past). 
> As I don’t want to unrecoverable destroy and delete my source (RAW) images
and to respect the decree of the Slovenian government, I removed from the
internet (again! And again waste of my time…) even the cultural project with
masking the people with African masks ( www.burger.si ). With that decision I
can keep my panoramas for my personal use and wait for a new legal system which
might allow publishing panoramas. I don’t feel to be a victim as my internet
project was my “mission” and not for a living… but who is >next in
Europe... somewhere else?
>


Actually I think Switzerland already has  a very similar law.
http://www.insideprivacy.com/international/swiss-privacy-law-halts-googles-stree\
tview----but-is-unlikely-to-affect-photojournalism/

Hans


>
> :) Boštjan
>

That was also on the meeting last week. Yes for journalism but it need to be
related to the story. Then I told that I am a geographer and my task is also
documenting present for the future... social geography. I gave her an example
with "time line panoramas" documenting the same town area and differences
comparing urbanism, different fashion, haircut, even licence plates has changed
dramatically. It was no answer to my example. And don't think that I am "just
picked one"... it seems to be an European directive among ICs but panographers,
photographers and videographers are not aware...they have just started in the
weakest country. I have posted "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish"... some
have got it some not...". Here use to be
Slovenia: http://www.burger.si/SLOIndex.htm

:) Boštjan

________________________________
From: Hans <hans@...>
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 1:48 PM
Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !





--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
>
> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data. As a database it is
under her jurisdiction. Such photography is illegal to be published on the
internet unless it is with the blurred face. Published Virtual reality panorama
with not blurred faces is legal only in case that the publisher has a written
permit of all people on the panorama. The source images from which panorama were
stitched need to be unrecoverable deleted e.g. destroyed.
> What about other images published on the internet? That is not a data
collection but it doesn’t mean that the publisher is without the
responsibility. To be “safe”, the publisher (photographer, videographer)
needs to get (ex-post) the permit every individual documented on the image.
> That decree is valid for all images taken on the territory of Republic of
Slovenia and retroactive (no time limit for the past). 
> As I don’t want to unrecoverable destroy and delete my source (RAW) images
and to respect the decree of the Slovenian government, I removed from the
internet (again! And again waste of my time…) even the cultural project with
masking the people with African masks ( www.burger.si ). With that decision I
can keep my panoramas for my personal use and wait for a new legal system which
might allow publishing panoramas. I don’t feel to be a victim as my internet
project was my “mission” and not for a living… but who is >next in
Europe... somewhere else?
>

Actually I think Switzerland already has  a very similar law.
http://www.insideprivacy.com/international/swiss-privacy-law-halts-googles-stree\
tview----but-is-unlikely-to-affect-photojournalism/

Hans

>
> :) Boštjan
>


   

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matt Smith <masmith@...> wrote:
>
> I was thinking more in the direction of
>
> WHAT IS AN EVENT?
> In the eyes of the court that is...

Yes this is vey true.

I just went through the panoramas with people in them  I have published at
panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be defined as an event.

However if we look at the ones I have done for Arounder Copenhagen
http://copenhagen.arounder.com/
and Arounder Aarhus http://aarhus.arounder.com/
There are many illegal according to the Slovenian law.

However even among these there are several which may be difficult to define.
For example what about this one.
http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/amalienborg-guardshift-1.html

That is a daily event in Copenhagen.

Or what about the tourists at the Little Mermaid
http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/the-little-mermaid.html

Hans






>
>
> Matt Smith
> PhotoSpherix
> 317.396.5791
> Spin 360 Product Photography
> Indianapolis, Indiana USA
> http://www.photospherix.com
>
> On Dec 1, 2011, at 5:19 AM, Robert Slade wrote:
>
> > Bostjan,
> >
> > I have been following your plight, and really sorry to hear this latest
> > awful news for you. Perhaps this is the problem when people with limited
> > technical understanding become regulators.
> >
> > Your story has hit some of the professional photography mailing lists in
> > the UK, so more and more people are aware of your situation.
> >
> > Does the Information Commissioner of Slovenia define precisely the
> > boundary between a stills photograph and a "Virtual Reality Panorama"?
> > Perhaps there is some way to fall outside of their definition e.g. if
> > they mention 360x180 then produce a 360x179 degree panorama.
> >
> > How do they intend to check that you have deleted the source files?
> > Surely these qualify as ordinary stills anyway? Can you store them
> > online or mail a hard disk of images abroad?
> >
> > Don't let them do this to you!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Rob
> > --
> >
> > Bostjan Burger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Now it seems very final. I hope that I have translated correctly:
> >> Information commissioner of Slovenia has declared that Virtual Reality
> >> panorama is collecting and maintenance of the personal data.
> >
> > --
> > Robert Slade, Photographer
> > Manor Photography 07890 564889
> > http://www.manor-photography.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

A sad image, which reminded me somewhat of this story here in the UK:

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580911/PC-overkill-for-schools-internet\
-newsletter.html>

Regards,
Rob
--

Bostjan Burger wrote:
>
>
> I have posted "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish"... some
> have got it some not...". Here use to be
> Slovenia: http://www.burger.si/SLOIndex.htm

--
Robert Slade, Photographer
Manor Photography 07890 564889
http://www.manor-photography.com

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Bostjan Burger <si_lander@...> wrote:
>
> According Slovenian IC (now I am trained and educated after few momnths of
"political education" and "brain wash" ...lol...) none of your VRPs you gave as
an example would be illegal... soldiers marching is event, walking on the river
is event..., maremaid ... it is event (on the limit but still ok.)
>
> But would be illegal:�
>
> http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html
> http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html

Just needs some text
1. Nyhavn was full of people last weekend because of the very beautiful late
summer weather. http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-1.html
2. The Fej� Fruit ship arrived yesterday at Nyhavn at  it's traditional visit
each autumn.
http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/nyhavn-2.html

Hans

>
> http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/stroeget-at-amagertorv.html�...
e.t.c...
>
>
> You need to mask or blur peoples faces and after publishing panoramas
unrecoverable destroy source photographies... but luckily it is not Slovenia nor
Switzerland...
>
> Bostjan
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Hans <hans@...>
> To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:40 PM
> Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !
>
>
> �
>
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matt Smith <masmith@> wrote:
> >
> > I was thinking more in the direction of
> >
> > WHAT IS AN EVENT?
> > In the eyes of the court that is...
>
> Yes this is vey true.
>
> I just went through the panoramas with people in them  I have published at
panoramas.dk and found that almost all of them can be defined as an event.
>
> However if we look at the ones I have done for Arounder Copenhagen
http://copenhagen.arounder.com/
> and Arounder Aarhus http://aarhus.arounder.com/
> There are many illegal according to the Slovenian law.
>
> However even among these there are several which may be difficult to define.
> For example what about this one.
> http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/amalienborg-guardshift-1.html
>
> That is a daily event in Copenhagen.
>
> Or what about the tourists at the Little Mermaid
> http://copenhagen.arounder.com/en/city-tour/the-little-mermaid.html
>
> Hans
>

Wow.

I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in
slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera
phones on some popular tourist spot.

Sorry about that.

Blochi

 

Hi,

The quality of these panos sure make a change from the usual Google street/store view:

http://g.co/maps/j5hn7

We've also reduced the price of the Atome to £145 ex VAT or $USD225. This is a limited offer while stocks last. Shipping will be 5-7 days.

Matt
http://www.360precision.com

�

If you keep posting on Facebook you won't get a reply. �And what does the supply on an Atome have to do with built-to-order Absolute parts ?

Matt

On 1 Dec 2011, at 18:57, Manuel Cabral wrote:

�

5-7 days? I've been waiting for my order for over a month.

5-7 days is more like the time since my last attempt to contact 360precision, which was not replied to as usual.

Manuel


On 30-11-2011 23:21, Matthew Rogers wrote:

�

Hi,

The quality of these panos sure make a change from the usual Google street/store view:

http://g.co/maps/j5hn7

We've also reduced the price of the Atome to �145 ex VAT or $USD225. This is a limited offer while stocks last. Shipping will be 5-7 days.

Matt
http://www.360precision.com

Bostjan,

Why do you take all your panos offline again?

Why don't you fight it?

Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust? Otherwise,
how can anything be changed?

You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but that
won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

Jeffrey



--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
>
> Wow.
>
> I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in
slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera
phones on some popular tourist spot.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Blochi
>

I didn't take all my panos offline and I didn't announce that. I have kept that
what is needed for e-learning programmes with direct links to my site (web sites
but mostly moodle e-learnig classrooms). And I am  still taking panos - here I
was two days ago:  http://www.burger.si/KSA/Rzenik/01.html and
here: http://www.burger.si/KSA/Konj/01.html . (documenting
Alps: http://www.burger.si/KSA/ksa_zemljevid.html ) That panos show acctuall
my daily life ...  I am not "urban" man... towns and streets are only a very
small part of my panos.
I have taken away only urban areas ... most of people "have got" the parody "So
long and thanks ..." from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy . That space
birocartic creatures and (slovenian) birocracy... that is my way of the protest,
as it was that masking peoples faces with African masks... as masking was not
enought, but I need to unrecoverby  delete my source images after masking, it
was safe to remove masked panos and find other resistance. As a fair citizen I
need to obey the legal institution but I have a right to make a fun from it in a
fair way untill it change the decision. Here in Slovenia are only random
shooting panoraphers and only few responded. Even some Slovenian diplomats has
responded using my web site for a Slovenian promotion last decade, as some stuff
has vanished and that text from HG2Galaxy appeared... they got a clue and it
very embarrassing...but not for me ;)

Boštjan

________________________________
From: prague <panoramas@...>
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:19 PM
Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !




Bostjan,

Why do you take all your panos offline again?

Why don't you fight it?

Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust? Otherwise,
how can anything be changed?

You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but that
won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

Jeffrey

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
>
> Wow.
>
> I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos in
slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all camera
phones on some popular tourist spot.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Blochi
>


   

Hey Bostjan :-)


On 12/04/2011, at 8:17 AM, Bostjan Burger wrote:
> but I need to unrecoverby  delete my source images after masking,

I can't help but think that (unrecoverably delete) is in breach of many national
and international codes, your own copyright to say the least. Or doesn't
Slovenia recognise copyright laws? Or human rights, or the right to work to earn
a living etc?


>  As a fair citizen I need to obey the legal institution but I have a right to
make a fun from it in a fair way untill it change the decision.


You have plenty of friends, perhaps whenever you want to take an urban pano you
should announce it as an event, and invite people down to partake in it. Put
signs up (perhaps printed on the backs of your volunteers T-shirts/jackets) that
anyone who does not want to get in the pictures should keep away? Then not only
can you call it an "event", anyone who participates will have given their
permission, and you could get some free publicity for it - good for you, perhaps
not so good for your oppressors ...

KathyW.

>... I need to unrecoverby �delete my source images after masking,

It would be a tragedy if someone stole one of your backup drives with all of
your source images and escaped the country before being apprehended. Truly a
tragedy... ;^)

Mark

________________________________
From: prague <panoramas@...>
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:19 PM
Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Information commissioner: very final !




Bostjan,

Why do you take all your panos offline again?

Why don't you fight it?

Isn't it the *obligation* of citizens to resist laws that are unjust?
Otherwise, how can anything be changed?

You have gotten a lot of sympathy from fellow photographers over this, but
that won't get anyone very far, and certainly won't change anything.

Jeffrey

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Christian Bloch <Blochi@...> wrote:
>
> Wow.
>
> I sure hope newspapers will warn potential tourists that all their photos
in slovenia will be illegal. Better hand out stacks of model releases at the
border. Also, they should set an example and have police confiscate all
camera phones on some popular tourist spot.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Blochi
>


  �


------------------------------------

--

Hi guys,

I have a working solution for a wireless transfer of the life-view signal from
my camera. Unfortunately I yet have no comfortable solution to view it in the
field. Can anybody recommend a small and cheap monitor in the 7" range with a
composite input? 12 V and deliverend from Europe would be nice. (Yes, I know
they're on ebay, but maybe someone can share his own experience with one of
these).

Cheers
J�rgen

Hi Jürgen,

I have a Phottix Hero lying around that I never use, let me know if that's
what you're looking for and bid! PS I have the N8 cable, D300-700
compatible.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=phottix%20hero&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDsQFj\
AA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmartybugs.net%2Fblog%2Fblog.cgi%2Fgear%2FPhottixHeroLiveView\
WirelessRemote.html&ei=md7bTrn6Fc6f-wbC3rHhDg&usg=AFQjCNFiJs-6JQmXUsHMXEeKwI-3UE\
ai9g

--
View this message in context:
http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/Need-a-small-field-monitor-tp4157963p415\
8101.html
Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Has anyone any experience, views etc on producing 180x180 virtual tour videos
using a fisheye lens on a fullframe SLR recording video?

I know there are several kits available based on the one-shot mirror type setup
which will capture (nearly) 360x180. I'd like to use my existing kit (canon 5D
mk2 with a 8mm fisheye) and capture 180x180 video stream. Two issues I see are
1) converting the fisheye frames and 2) finding a suitable viewer. While this is
not a full 360x180 it would still make for an interesting,engagning video
experience.

Look forward to getting your comments.

Tim

Several years ago Prof Dersch [Heritage - PTVIEWER] used a Nikon Fisheye FE-8
lens duct taped over the digital handy cam movie camera.  I remember he walked
down a street, through a crowd of people before coming to a stop about 5 minutes
later.  He used one of his frame software to convert the movie to a panorama
movie which he displayed on the internet.

Maybe you could try video with your Fisheye lens and Canon 5d II.

Someone here on forum might know Prof Dersch's website URL. Or try Panoguide.com

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "tim_woolford2001" <tim.woolford@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone any experience, views etc on producing 180x180 virtual tour videos
using a fisheye lens on a fullframe SLR recording video?
>
> I know there are several kits available based on the one-shot mirror type
setup which will capture (nearly) 360x180. I'd like to use my existing kit
(canon 5D mk2 with a 8mm fisheye) and capture 180x180 video stream. Two issues I
see are 1) converting the fisheye frames and 2) finding a suitable viewer. While
this is not a full 360x180 it would still make for an interesting,engagning
video experience.
>
> Look forward to getting your comments.
>
> Tim
>

Thank you, Henri,
but what I have on my mind is more something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&isIU=1&item=250934089493

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Henri Smeets <henri@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jürgen,
>
> I have a Phottix Hero lying around that I never use, let me know if that's
> what you're looking for and bid! PS I have the N8 cable, D300-700
> compatible.
>
>
http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=phottix%20hero&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDsQFj\
AA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmartybugs.net%2Fblog%2Fblog.cgi%2Fgear%2FPhottixHeroLiveView\
WirelessRemote.html&ei=md7bTrn6Fc6f-wbC3rHhDg&usg=AFQjCNFiJs-6JQmXUsHMXEeKwI-3UE\
ai9g
>
> --
> View this message in context:
http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/Need-a-small-field-monitor-tp4157963p415\
8101.html
> Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

this is only because nikon cameras are "dumb" in this particular way - they
can't just use auto exposure with any kind of manual lens (the way canon cameras
can), right? :)


--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <panovrx@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon
>

Am 05.12.2011 15:24, schrieb texas360dave:
> Someone here on forum might know Prof Dersch's website URL

A mirror of the old page shut down in 2002 can be found on
http://www.panotools.org/dersch/

But the video is most likely located on his current page:
http://webuser.hs-furtwangen.de/~dersch/

Could it be it is
http://webuser.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/mp/MotionPanoramas.html ?

Regarding the original question:

As far as I know krpano can display panoramic video:
http://krpano.com/video/

Same is true for the lucid viewer: http://www.lucid.it/

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

No problem, that indeed gives you a better preview actually.

--
View this message in context:
http://panotoolsng.586017.n4.nabble.com/Need-a-small-field-monitor-tp4157963p416\
1977.html
Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

That's a reoccuring myth. I'm not sure how the Canon cameras get along with
pre-EOS lenses but my D-300 works quite nicely with the manual lenses I have.
Beginning with the D200 / D2 on all pro / semi-pro models you just need to set
the widest aperture in the camera's settings and you'll have the right info for
exposure/aperture in the EXIF info and also automatic exposure works as expected
(e.g. comparing to how it works on a F3).

Auto exposure is highly overrated btw ;-)

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "prague" wrote:
>
> this is only because nikon cameras are "dumb" in this particular way - they
can't just use auto exposure with any kind of manual lens (the way canon cameras
can), right? :)
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" <panovrx@> wrote:
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon

http://www.gizmag.com/steadepod-pocket-monopod/20729/