--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "panovrx" wrote:
>
> This is a useful thing to be able to do with certain kinds of raw
>panorama sequences and was now can be done with relative ease by a
> software tool LRTimelapse (donationware) and workflows for Lightroom
> and/or Bridge
> http://lrtimelapse.com/
>
> This was developed in the context of raw timelapse sequences and has
> another feature related to that - "deflicker" - which could be useful
> for stereo panoramas in particular where your "slices" can be narrow
> and exposure variations are a nuisance.
>
> PeterM
>

Thanks for the tip Peter!
This tool looks very interesting indeed.

Cheers!

Erik Leeman

No-one commented when I asked about the Samyang 8mm fisheye, which I intended to
use as a replacement for my Peleng. I went ahead anyway, and took home a Pentax
K-01 and the Samyang last week. The camera was fine--just right for panos, as I
had thought, but the Samyang was a bitter disappointment. I couldn't get sharp
focus at any combination of distance and lens setting... I had heard that
occasionally the lenses are adjusted properly before leaving the factory, but
when I suggested to the assistant in the shop where I bought it that they should
send it back for adjustment, he said "the people they have representing them in
Japan don't have a good reputation for that kind of care. They would probably
send it back to Korea, and you would have to take another chance with the
replacement they might send." In fact he recommended me to take a refund, and as
they didn't have another Samyang with Pentax mount in t he store, that was the
best they could do.

So I can either continue to take four-around using my Peleng in a ring mount on
a monopod, which is my preferred mode, or use the Nodal Ninja to set up my
Pentax zoom 10-17mm fisheye for six-around using a tripod. <sigh>

Roger W.

Sent from my iPad

I am another who profited from Pat's generous help and probing correspondence.
He had shared some details of a major project he was working on for a great
potential customer and it is sad to think he  will not be able to follow through
on that vision.

He had promised to take me sky diving if ever I visited and poo-poohed the idea
I might be too old at 74. I shall miss him. A great and generous guy.

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view" instead of
what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More disconcerting was the strange
way the image seemed to swim around inside the frame. I later guessed this must
be the image stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going
to make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just a few
pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the use of "shift"
adjustment in opotimization as the center of each image will almosst certainly
be different from the ones adjacent to  it.

I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old age is
making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also think it could
help me to get good results from spinning the camera on top of a pole and using
the burst mode (six shots per second) to take a series of shots automatically
for panoramas without having to use a very high shutter speed.

Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep the list
posted on the results I get.

Roger W.

Sent from my iPad

If I remember correctly there are tutorials on the web that show how one can
adjust the focus barrel by oneself. I did this also with my 14mm Samyang.



--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@...> wrote:
>
> No-one commented when I asked about the Samyang 8mm fisheye, which I intended
to use as a replacement for my Peleng. I went ahead anyway, and took home a
Pentax K-01 and the Samyang last week. The camera was fine--just right for
panos, as I had thought, but the Samyang was a bitter disappointment. I couldn't
get sharp focus at any combination of distance and lens setting... I had heard
that occasionally the lenses are adjusted properly before leaving the factory,
but when I suggested to the assistant in the shop where I bought it that they
should send it back for adjustment, he said "the people they have representing
them in Japan don't have a good reputation for that kind of care. They would
probably send it back to Korea, and you would have to take another chance with
the replacement they might send." In fact he recommended me to take a refund,
and as they didn't have another Samyang with Pentax mount in t he store, that
was the best they could do.
>
> So I can either continue to take four-around using my Peleng in a ring mount
on a monopod, which is my preferred mode, or use the Nodal Ninja to set up my
Pentax zoom 10-17mm fisheye for six-around using a tripod. <sigh>
>
> Roger W.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jrgen_schrader" <panorama@...> wrote:
>
> If I remember correctly there are tutorials on the web that show how one can
adjust the focus barrel by oneself. I did this also with my 14mm Samyang.
>
>
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
> >
> > No-one commented when I asked about the Samyang 8mm fisheye, which I
intended to use as a replacement for my Peleng. I went ahead anyway, and took
home a Pentax K-01 and the Samyang last week. The camera was fine--just right
for panos, as I had thought, but the Samyang was a bitter disappointment. I
couldn't get sharp focus at any combination of distance and lens setting... I
had heard that occasionally the lenses are adjusted properly before leaving the
factory, but when I suggested to the assistant in the shop where I bought it
that they should send it back for adjustment, he said "the people they have
representing them in Japan don't have a good reputation for that kind of care.
They would probably send it back to Korea, and you would have to take another
chance with the replacement they might send." In fact he recommended me to take
a refund, and as they didn't have another Samyang with Pentax mount in t he
store, that was the best they could do.
> >
> > So I can either continue to take four-around using my Peleng in a ring mount
on a monopod, which is my preferred mode, or use the Nodal Ninja to set up my
Pentax zoom 10-17mm fisheye for six-around using a tripod. <sigh>


There is very little difference shooting with the Samyang 8mm and the Pentax
10-17mm at 10mm.

Even if you can shoot 4 around +1 zenith with the Samyang it is not something I
would do handheld or even with monopod as it does need a very presize rotation
at 90 degrees.

Hans

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@...> wrote:
>
> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view" instead of
what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More disconcerting was the strange
way the image seemed to swim around inside the frame. I later guessed this must
be the image stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going
to make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just a few
pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the use of "shift"
adjustment in opotimization as the center of each image will almosst certainly
be different from the ones adjacent to  it.
>
> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old age is
making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also think it could
help me to get good results from spinning the camera on top of a pole and using
the burst mode (six shots per second) to take a series of shots automatically
for panoramas without having to use a very high shutter speed.
>
> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep the list
posted on >the results I get.

Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
You should always turn it of for panoramas.

If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to do.

Hans



>
> Roger W.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

http://www.versacorp.com/vlink/jcreview/sy8rv9jc.pdf

Thanks, Hans. But by tilting the Samyang until the diagonal was vertical I got
more lateral overlap and had absolutely no problem with stitching/seams. But the
panoramas were so soft they were useless.

Roger W.

Sent from my iPad

On May 27, 2012, at 9:53 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jrgen_schrader" <panorama@...> wrote:
>>
>> If I remember correctly there are tutorials on the web that show how one can
adjust the focus barrel by oneself. I did this also with my 14mm Samyang.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
>>>
>>> No-one commented when I asked about the Samyang 8mm fisheye, which I
intended to use as a replacement for my Peleng. I went ahead anyway, and took
home a Pentax K-01 and the Samyang last week. The camera was fine--just right
for panos, as I had thought, but the Samyang was a bitter disappointment. I
couldn't get sharp focus at any combination of distance and lens setting... I
had heard that occasionally the lenses are adjusted properly before leaving the
factory, but when I suggested to the assistant in the shop where I bought it
that they should send it back for adjustment, he said "the people they have
representing them in Japan don't have a good reputation for that kind of care.
They would probably send it back to Korea, and you would have to take another
chance with the replacement they might send." In fact he recommended me to take
a refund, and as they didn't have another Samyang with Pentax mount in t he
store, that was the best they could do.
>>>
>>> So I can either continue to take four-around using my Peleng in a ring mount
on a monopod, which is my preferred mode, or use the Nodal Ninja to set up my
Pentax zoom 10-17mm fisheye for six-around using a tripod. <sigh>
>
>
> There is very little difference shooting with the Samyang 8mm and the Pentax
10-17mm at 10mm.
>
> Even if you can shoot 4 around +1 zenith with the Samyang it is not something
I would do handheld or even with monopod as it does need a very presize rotation
at 90 degrees.
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
>
>
>

For my friends at Panotools NG who still prefer to forego FB (where this was
originally posted):

  Here's a link to one of my recent works which shows a group of Somali refugees
waiting for medical treatment at Melkadida refugee camp in southern Ethiopia

http://www.bavaria360.de/waiting/warten.html

  Melkadida refugee camp is located in the south of Ethiopia close to the border
to Somalia. Melkadida is one camp of five in this area and houses 40,600
refugees in 9,300 households (which means families in tents). 70% of the
inhabitants are under 18 ears old.

  Because I wanted to learn and report about what live in such a camp is really
like, I was invited by a German help organization which is running a health post
there to live and stay with them for two weeks.

  You can imagine that this was a challenging venue by all means and
unfortunately I yet haven't had the time to work on most of the images and
videos I grabbed there. This one here is the first one I published and hopefully
one day there will be a complete "story".

  The lucky people who can make it to the IVRPA NYC 2012 conference will get a
detailed first hand report.

You are highly encouraged to post any comment especially if you want to discuss
the use of panoramas for editorial work in general or improvements for this one
in particular.

Warm regards
Jürgen

After reading Trausti's conundrum I don't feel so bad about mine. I
can't afford to go to New York and I don't dare go in debt to do it, so
I will miss this one.

Paul Fretheim

Hi,
Congratulations, it's just great photography + 360° functionality. Very well
done.
I don't understand why did you watermark all over the picture. Is there any
copyright issue?
www.bavaria360.com all over the faces and walls looks like you are
advertising your business.
Best regards,
Fernando

-----Message d'origine-----
De : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] De la
part de jrgen_schrader
Envoyé : 27 mai 2012 10:32
À : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [PanoToolsNG] Waiting

For my friends at Panotools NG who still prefer to forego FB (where this was
originally posted):

  Here's a link to one of my recent works which shows a group of Somali
refugees waiting for medical treatment at Melkadida refugee camp in southern
Ethiopia

http://www.bavaria360.de/waiting/warten.html

  Melkadida refugee camp is located in the south of Ethiopia close to the
border to Somalia. Melkadida is one camp of five in this area and houses
40,600 refugees in 9,300 households (which means families in tents). 70% of
the inhabitants are under 18 ears old.

  Because I wanted to learn and report about what live in such a camp is
really like, I was invited by a German help organization which is running a
health post there to live and stay with them for two weeks.

  You can imagine that this was a challenging venue by all means and
unfortunately I yet haven't had the time to work on most of the images and
videos I grabbed there. This one here is the first one I published and
hopefully one day there will be a complete "story".

  The lucky people who can make it to the IVRPA NYC 2012 conference will get
a detailed first hand report.

You are highly encouraged to post any comment especially if you want to
discuss the use of panoramas for editorial work in general or improvements
for this one in particular.

Warm regards
Jürgen

Fernando, there is no need to advertise my business but to protect my work. So
if anybody thinks he needs to "reuse" any part of it without asking people will
know where he got it from :)

Usually I do not use watermarks on the work I publish.
But with this one I felt it was necessary.



--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Congratulations, it's just great photography + 360° functionality. Very well
> done.
> I don't understand why did you watermark all over the picture. Is there any
> copyright issue?
> www.bavaria360.com all over the faces and walls looks like you are
> advertising your business.
> Best regards,
> Fernando
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] De la
> part de jrgen_schrader
> Envoyé : 27 mai 2012 10:32
> À : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [PanoToolsNG] Waiting
>
> For my friends at Panotools NG who still prefer to forego FB (where this was
> originally posted):
>
>  Here's a link to one of my recent works which shows a group of Somali
> refugees waiting for medical treatment at Melkadida refugee camp in southern
> Ethiopia
>
> http://www.bavaria360.de/waiting/warten.html
>
>  Melkadida refugee camp is located in the south of Ethiopia close to the
> border to Somalia. Melkadida is one camp of five in this area and houses
> 40,600 refugees in 9,300 households (which means families in tents). 70% of
> the inhabitants are under 18 ears old.
>
>  Because I wanted to learn and report about what live in such a camp is
> really like, I was invited by a German help organization which is running a
> health post there to live and stay with them for two weeks.
>
>  You can imagine that this was a challenging venue by all means and
> unfortunately I yet haven't had the time to work on most of the images and
> videos I grabbed there. This one here is the first one I published and
> hopefully one day there will be a complete "story".
>
>  The lucky people who can make it to the IVRPA NYC 2012 conference will get
> a detailed first hand report.
>
> You are highly encouraged to post any comment especially if you want to
> discuss the use of panoramas for editorial work in general or improvements
> for this one in particular.
>
> Warm regards
> Jürgen
>

Yes, of course encryption would be an option, but I had also screengrabs in
mind. With that resolution and a large monitor one could easily get some nice
files for magazine prints.


--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Trausti Hraunfjord <trausti.hraunfjord@...>
wrote:
>
> Very nice work!
>
> Image encryption does have it's obvious advantages... or are you also
> preventing screen grabs with the watermarkings?
>
> Trausti
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 11:33 AM, jrgen_schrader
> <panorama@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Fernando, there is no need to advertise my business but to protect my
> > work. So if anybody thinks he needs to "reuse" any part of it without
> > asking people will know where he got it from :)
> >
> > Usually I do not use watermarks on the work I publish.
> > But with this one I felt it was necessary.
> >
> >
> > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Fernando Chaves" <fc@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > Congratulations, it's just great photography + 360° functionality. Very
> > well
> > > done.
> > > I don't understand why did you watermark all over the picture. Is there
> > any
> > > copyright issue?
> > > www.bavaria360.com all over the faces and walls looks like you are
> > > advertising your business.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Fernando
> > >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com]
> > De la
> > > part de jrgen_schrader
> > > Envoyé : 27 mai 2012 10:32
> > > À : PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
> > > Objet : [PanoToolsNG] Waiting
> > >
> > > For my friends at Panotools NG who still prefer to forego FB (where this
> > was
> > > originally posted):
> > >
> > > Here's a link to one of my recent works which shows a group of Somali
> > > refugees waiting for medical treatment at Melkadida refugee camp in
> > southern
> > > Ethiopia
> > >
> > > http://www.bavaria360.de/waiting/warten.html
> > >
> > > Melkadida refugee camp is located in the south of Ethiopia close to the
> > > border to Somalia. Melkadida is one camp of five in this area and houses
> > > 40,600 refugees in 9,300 households (which means families in tents). 70%
> > of
> > > the inhabitants are under 18 ears old.
> > >
> > > Because I wanted to learn and report about what live in such a camp is
> > > really like, I was invited by a German help organization which is
> > running a
> > > health post there to live and stay with them for two weeks.
> > >
> > > You can imagine that this was a challenging venue by all means and
> > > unfortunately I yet haven't had the time to work on most of the images
> > and
> > > videos I grabbed there. This one here is the first one I published and
> > > hopefully one day there will be a complete "story".
> > >
> > > The lucky people who can make it to the IVRPA NYC 2012 conference will
> > get
> > > a detailed first hand report.
> > >
> > > You are highly encouraged to post any comment especially if you want to
> > > discuss the use of panoramas for editorial work in general or
> > improvements
> > > for this one in particular.
> > >
> > > Warm regards
> > > Jürgen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi all,

Please read the info on the PanoTools Meeting blog if you are interested in
attending the PanoTools Meeting 2012 in Den Haag but did not register yet.

http://www.panotools-meeting.com/blog/limited-capacity-attendees-venue-panotools\
-meeting-2012

-- The PTM 2012 team

Hi all,

If you registered last year on the PanoTools Meeting website and like to visit
the coming meeting in Den Haag then please go to the PanoTools Meeting website,
login and check if all data on your account page is ok.

Check if the size of T-Shirt, the number of people for the excursions, etc. is
still the same and of course make sure "2012" is enabled.

Don't forget to save the changes.......

http://www.panotools-meeting.com/

See you in Den Haag!

-- The PTM 2012 team

Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as you think. I
never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod but sometimes I use
a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold the foot in the same position.
(I used to have trouble with the foot "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The
little tripod I use has a ball head that I screw into the bottom of the monopod
and I slacken the clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed point . I use a
Velcro'd bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I usually turn it
by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to shoot six
around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be like the
case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable it could be used
for making templates.

Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization to remove
what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why wouldn't it be a good thing
to use on a camera that is being spun to take a burst of photos for later
stitching into a panorama?

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@...> wrote:
>>
>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view" instead
of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More disconcerting was the
strange way the image seemed to swim around inside the frame. I later guessed
this must be the image stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This
is going to make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just
a few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the use of
"shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each image will almosst
certainly be different from the ones adjacent to  it.
>>
>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old age is
making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also think it could
help me to get good results from spinning the camera on top of a pole and using
the burst mode (six shots per second) to take a series of shots automatically
for panoramas without having to use a very high shutter speed.
>>
>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep the
list posted on >the results I get.
>
> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>
> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to do.
>
> Hans
>
>
>
>>
>> Roger W.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
>
>
>

Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of vibration produced by
hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if mounted on a tripod (sometimes even a
monopod) will get confused by the different frequency of the vibrations and
actually introduce *more* vibration than if you turn the IS off.

A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general IS and any
kind of support doesn't mix well.

Ian


On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:

> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as you think.
I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod but sometimes I
use a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold the foot in the same
position. (I used to have trouble with the foot "walking" as i rotated the
monopd.) The little tripod I use has a ball head that I screw into the bottom of
the monopod and I slacken the clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed
point . I use a Velcro'd bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I
usually turn it by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to
shoot six around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be
like the case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable it could
be used for making templates.
>
> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization to
remove what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why wouldn't it be a
good thing to use on a camera that is being spun to take a burst of photos for
later stitching into a panorama?
>
> Roger W
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view" instead
of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More disconcerting was the
strange way the image seemed to swim around inside the frame. I later guessed
this must be the image stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This
is going to make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just
a few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the use of
"shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each image will almosst
certainly be different from the ones adjacent to  it.
>>>
>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old age is
making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also think it could
help me to get good results from spinning the camera on top of a pole and using
the burst mode (six shots per second) to take a series of shots automatically
for panoramas without having to use a very high shutter speed.
>>>
>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep the
list posted on >the results I get.
>>
>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>>
>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to do.
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Roger W.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
>
>
>

Thank you Ian. I didn't know that, and of course Hans's comment now
makes a lot more sense to me.

Roger W.


On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:08:55 +0900, Ian Wood <panolists@...>
wrote:

> Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of vibration
> produced by hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if mounted on a
> tripod (sometimes even a monopod) will get confused by the different
> frequency of the vibrations and actually introduce *more* vibration than
> if you turn the IS off.
>
> A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general IS
> and any kind of support doesn't mix well.
>
> Ian
>
>
> On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as you
>> think. I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod
>> but sometimes I use a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold
>> the foot in the same position. (I used to have trouble with the foot
>> "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The little tripod I use has a ball
>> head that I screw into the bottom of the monopod and I slacken the
>> clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed point . I use a Velcro'd
>> bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I usually turn it
>> by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to shoot
>> six around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be
>> like the case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable
>> it could be used for making templates.
>>
>> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization
>> to remove what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why wouldn't
>> it be a good thing to use on a camera that is being spun to take a
>> burst of photos for later stitching into a panorama?
>>
>> Roger W
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view"
>>>> instead of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More
>>>> disconcerting was the strange way the image seemed to swim around
>>>> inside the frame. I later guessed this must be the image
>>>> stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going to
>>>> make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just a
>>>> few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the
>>>> use of "shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each
>>>> image will almosst certainly be different from the ones adjacent to
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old
>>>> age is making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also
>>>> think it could help me to get good results from spinning the camera
>>>> on top of a pole and using the burst mode (six shots per second) to
>>>> take a series of shots automatically for panoramas without having to
>>>> use a very high shutter speed.
>>>>
>>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep
>>>> the list posted on >the results I get.
>>>
>>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
>>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>>>
>>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to
>>> do.
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roger W.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>


--
Business: www.adex-japan.com
Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net

roger,

not all image stabilization systems are born equal, but according to the k-01
english manual (from http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/869),
page 101, it is fixed to off when using either the self-timer or the remote
control, as i think you would, on top of a pole.  so if i'm reading this rite,
you don't actually have a choice...

hth
cheers,
pedro

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Ian. I didn't know that, and of course Hans's comment now
> makes a lot more sense to me.
>
> Roger W.
>
>
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:08:55 +0900, Ian Wood <panolists@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of vibration
> > produced by hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if mounted on a
> > tripod (sometimes even a monopod) will get confused by the different
> > frequency of the vibrations and actually introduce *more* vibration than
> > if you turn the IS off.
> >
> > A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general IS
> > and any kind of support doesn't mix well.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> > On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as you
> >> think. I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod
> >> but sometimes I use a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold
> >> the foot in the same position. (I used to have trouble with the foot
> >> "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The little tripod I use has a ball
> >> head that I screw into the bottom of the monopod and I slacken the
> >> clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed point . I use a Velcro'd
> >> bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I usually turn it
> >> by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to shoot
> >> six around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be
> >> like the case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable
> >> it could be used for making templates.
> >>
> >> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization
> >> to remove what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why wouldn't
> >> it be a good thing to use on a camera that is being spun to take a
> >> burst of photos for later stitching into a panorama?
> >>
> >> Roger W
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view"
> >>>> instead of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More
> >>>> disconcerting was the strange way the image seemed to swim around
> >>>> inside the frame. I later guessed this must be the image
> >>>> stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going to
> >>>> make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just a
> >>>> few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the
> >>>> use of "shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each
> >>>> image will almosst certainly be different from the ones adjacent to
> >>>> it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old
> >>>> age is making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also
> >>>> think it could help me to get good results from spinning the camera
> >>>> on top of a pole and using the burst mode (six shots per second) to
> >>>> take a series of shots automatically for panoramas without having to
> >>>> use a very high shutter speed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep
> >>>> the list posted on >the results I get.
> >>>
> >>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
> >>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
> >>>
> >>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to
> >>> do.
> >>>
> >>> Hans
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger W.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> --
> Business: www.adex-japan.com
> Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
> Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
>

That's interesting, Pedro. I am also grateful for the link to the English
manual. I got the Japanese one of course! And although I made my living for
years translating Japanese instruction manuals into English, it is not exactly
my idea of fun. Much easier and faster to find what I want in English!

Roger W.

Sent from my iPad

On May 28, 2012, at 11:29 PM, "pedro_silva58" <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:

> roger,
>
> not all image stabilization systems are born equal, but according to the k-01
english manual (from http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/869),
page 101, it is fixed to off when using either the self-timer or the remote
control, as i think you would, on top of a pole.  so if i'm reading this rite,
you don't actually have a choice...
>
> hth
> cheers,
> pedro
>
> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you Ian. I didn't know that, and of course Hans's comment now
>> makes a lot more sense to me.
>>
>> Roger W.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:08:55 +0900, Ian Wood <panolists@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of vibration
>>> produced by hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if mounted on a
>>> tripod (sometimes even a monopod) will get confused by the different
>>> frequency of the vibrations and actually introduce *more* vibration than
>>> if you turn the IS off.
>>>
>>> A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general IS
>>> and any kind of support doesn't mix well.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as you
>>>> think. I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod
>>>> but sometimes I use a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold
>>>> the foot in the same position. (I used to have trouble with the foot
>>>> "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The little tripod I use has a ball
>>>> head that I screw into the bottom of the monopod and I slacken the
>>>> clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed point . I use a Velcro'd
>>>> bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I usually turn it
>>>> by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to shoot
>>>> six around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be
>>>> like the case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable
>>>> it could be used for making templates.
>>>>
>>>> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization
>>>> to remove what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why wouldn't
>>>> it be a good thing to use on a camera that is being spun to take a
>>>> burst of photos for later stitching into a panorama?
>>>>
>>>> Roger W
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view"
>>>>>> instead of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More
>>>>>> disconcerting was the strange way the image seemed to swim around
>>>>>> inside the frame. I later guessed this must be the image
>>>>>> stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going to
>>>>>> make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not just a
>>>>>> few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require the
>>>>>> use of "shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each
>>>>>> image will almosst certainly be different from the ones adjacent to
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as old
>>>>>> age is making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I also
>>>>>> think it could help me to get good results from spinning the camera
>>>>>> on top of a pole and using the burst mode (six shots per second) to
>>>>>> take a series of shots automatically for panoramas without having to
>>>>>> use a very high shutter speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll keep
>>>>>> the list posted on >the results I get.
>>>>>
>>>>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
>>>>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed to
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hans
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger W.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Business: www.adex-japan.com
>> Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
>> Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
>
>
>

Ran into an interesting "Gotcha" trying to use the perspective change
tool for filling a nadir today. I was taking a panorama indoors where
I could be sure there were lots of close-by details to reveal and
slight parallax problems.

I knew the control points had to be on a flat horizontal plane for
this to work properly, but I hadn't figured on the effect of my wife's
pride and joy, our highly polished wooden floors! The perspective of
the nadir-inset reflections is all wrong, so I have to go back to
MAJOR cloning as I am now using the Pentax 10-17mm zoom at 10mm, and
although I pointed it down 15 degrees that is still one LARGE hole to
fill! Ouch!

Roger

On Tue, 29 May 2012 08:47:23 +0900, Roger D Williams
<roger@...> wrote:

> That's interesting, Pedro. I am also grateful for the link to the
> English manual. I got the Japanese one of course! And although I made my
> living for years translating Japanese instruction manuals into English,
> it is not exactly my idea of fun. Much easier and faster to find what I
> want in English!
>
> Roger W.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 28, 2012, at 11:29 PM, "pedro_silva58"
> <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
>
>> roger,
>>
>> not all image stabilization systems are born equal, but according to
>> the k-01 english manual (from
>> http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/869), page 101,
>> it is fixed to off when using either the self-timer or the remote
>> control, as i think you would, on top of a pole.  so if i'm reading
>> this rite, you don't actually have a choice...
>>
>> hth
>> cheers,
>> pedro
>>
>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Ian. I didn't know that, and of course Hans's comment now
>>> makes a lot more sense to me.
>>>
>>> Roger W.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:08:55 +0900, Ian Wood <panolists@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of vibration
>>>> produced by hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if mounted on a
>>>> tripod (sometimes even a monopod) will get confused by the different
>>>> frequency of the vibrations and actually introduce *more* vibration
>>>> than
>>>> if you turn the IS off.
>>>>
>>>> A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general IS
>>>> and any kind of support doesn't mix well.
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as
>>>>> you
>>>>> think. I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a monopod
>>>>> but sometimes I use a mini-tripod at the foot of the monopod to hold
>>>>> the foot in the same position. (I used to have trouble with the foot
>>>>> "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The little tripod I use has a
>>>>> ball
>>>>> head that I screw into the bottom of the monopod and I slacken the
>>>>> clamp so the monopod can rotate about a fixed point . I use a
>>>>> Velcro'd
>>>>> bubble gauge on the monopod to keep it vertical, and I usually turn
>>>>> it
>>>>> by hand. I may have to modify this procedure a bit now I need to
>>>>> shoot
>>>>> six around--harder to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never
>>>>> be
>>>>> like the case of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so
>>>>> stable
>>>>> it could be used for making templates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image stabilization
>>>>> to remove what hand shake this setup may still induce? And why
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> it be a good thing to use on a camera that is being spun to take a
>>>>> burst of photos for later stitching into a panorama?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger W
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view"
>>>>>>> instead of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More
>>>>>>> disconcerting was the strange way the image seemed to swim around
>>>>>>> inside the frame. I later guessed this must be the image
>>>>>>> stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is going
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make the use of templates questionable, as the movement is not
>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>> few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would absolutely require
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> use of "shift" adjustment in opotimization as the center of each
>>>>>>> image will almosst certainly be different from the ones adjacent to
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as
>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>> age is making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp be. I
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> think it could help me to get good results from spinning the camera
>>>>>>> on top of a pole and using the burst mode (six shots per second) to
>>>>>>> take a series of shots automatically for panoramas without having
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use a very high shutter speed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll
>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>> the list posted on >the results I get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
>>>>>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is supposed
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger W.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Business: www.adex-japan.com
>>> Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
>>> Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>


--
Business: www.adex-japan.com
Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net

Better not to use perspective for nadirs any more than you have to. At the
moment I have someone mark my lens on the nodal point with a finger, remove
my setup, reposition the tripod and reconfigure it's center column back into
perfect position onto the floating finger. I still optimized VP for any
slight errors in alignment. You only have to worry about shadows and having
a tripod you can reconfigure.  Or you can use a nadir adapter on your
spherical head to swivel it out if you're using the ninja series. Major
cloning is annoying and doesn't even begin to compare in time with doing a
reshoot.

Best Regards,

Sacha Griffin
Southern Digital Solutions LLC  - Atlanta, Georgia
http://www.seeit360.com
http://twitter.com/SeeIt360
http://www.facebook.com/SeeIt360
IM: sachagriffin007@...
Office: 404-551-4275


-----Original Message-----
From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Roger D. Williams
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 11:31 PM
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: Using th K-01 for panoramas

Ran into an interesting "Gotcha" trying to use the perspective change tool
for filling a nadir today. I was taking a panorama indoors where I could be
sure there were lots of close-by details to reveal and slight parallax
problems.

I knew the control points had to be on a flat horizontal plane for this to
work properly, but I hadn't figured on the effect of my wife's pride and
joy, our highly polished wooden floors! The perspective of the nadir-inset
reflections is all wrong, so I have to go back to MAJOR cloning as I am now
using the Pentax 10-17mm zoom at 10mm, and although I pointed it down 15
degrees that is still one LARGE hole to fill! Ouch!

Roger

On Tue, 29 May 2012 08:47:23 +0900, Roger D Williams <roger@...>
wrote:

> That's interesting, Pedro. I am also grateful for the link to the
> English manual. I got the Japanese one of course! And although I made
> my living for years translating Japanese instruction manuals into
> English, it is not exactly my idea of fun. Much easier and faster to
> find what I want in English!
>
> Roger W.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 28, 2012, at 11:29 PM, "pedro_silva58"
> <pedro_silva58@...> wrote:
>
>> roger,
>>
>> not all image stabilization systems are born equal, but according to
>> the k-01 english manual (from
>> http://www.pentaximaging.com/support/download-details/869), page 101,
>> it is fixed to off when using either the self-timer or the remote
>> control, as i think you would, on top of a pole.  so if i'm reading
>> this rite, you don't actually have a choice...
>>
>> hth
>> cheers,
>> pedro
>>
>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Roger D. Williams" <roger@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Ian. I didn't know that, and of course Hans's comment now
>>> makes a lot more sense to me.
>>>
>>> Roger W.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 20:08:55 +0900, Ian Wood <panolists@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Image stabilisation is designed to correct for the kind of
>>>> vibration produced by hand-holding a camera. Most IS systems if
>>>> mounted on a tripod (sometimes even a monopod) will get confused by
>>>> the different frequency of the vibrations and actually introduce
>>>> *more* vibration than if you turn the IS off.
>>>>
>>>> A few high-end systems have a switch for tripod-mode but in general
>>>> IS and any kind of support doesn't mix well.
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 28 May 2012, at 09:40, Roger D Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Hans, but it may not be quite such a clear situation as
>>>>> you think. I never use a tripod in the usual way. I always use a
>>>>> monopod but sometimes I use a mini-tripod at the foot of the
>>>>> monopod to hold the foot in the same position. (I used to have
>>>>> trouble with the foot "walking" as i rotated the monopd.) The
>>>>> little tripod I use has a ball head that I screw into the bottom
>>>>> of the monopod and I slacken the clamp so the monopod can rotate
>>>>> about a fixed point . I use a Velcro'd bubble gauge on the monopod
>>>>> to keep it vertical, and I usually turn it by hand. I may have to
>>>>> modify this procedure a bit now I need to shoot six around--harder
>>>>> to estimate 60 degrees than 90! But it will never be like the case
>>>>> of someone with a rock solid tripod and a setup so stable it could
>>>>> be used for making templates.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why am I wrong to think that it is useful to have image
>>>>> stabilization to remove what hand shake this setup may still
>>>>> induce? And why wouldn't it be a good thing to use on a camera
>>>>> that is being spun to take a burst of photos for later stitching
>>>>> into a panorama?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger W
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2012, at 10:00 PM, "Hans" <hans@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Roger D Williams <roger@> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's taking a bit of getting used to--having continuous "live view"
>>>>>>> instead of what I thought of as a "proper" viewfinder. More
>>>>>>> disconcerting was the strange way the image seemed to swim
>>>>>>> around inside the frame. I later guessed this must be the image
>>>>>>> stabilitzation mechanism shifting the sensor around. This is
>>>>>>> going to make the use of templates questionable, as the movement
>>>>>>> is not just a few pixels! I hadn't realised that this would
>>>>>>> absolutely require the use of "shift" adjustment in
>>>>>>> opotimization as the center of each image will almosst certainly
>>>>>>> be different from the ones adjacent to it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am happy to have image stabilization built into the camera, as
>>>>>>> old age is making my hands a lot less steady than they used tp
>>>>>>> be. I also think it could help me to get good results from
>>>>>>> spinning the camera on top of a pole and using the burst mode
>>>>>>> (six shots per second) to take a series of shots automatically
>>>>>>> for panoramas without having to use a very high shutter speed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mirrorless operation should also help avoid camera shake... I'll
>>>>>>> keep the list posted on >the results I get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Image stabilisation is an absolutely NO NO with any kind of tripod.
>>>>>> You should always turn it of for panoramas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you use it on a tripod it will do the opposite as it is
>>>>>> supposed to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger W.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Business: www.adex-japan.com
>>> Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
>>> Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>


--
Business: www.adex-japan.com
Pleasure: www.usefilm.com/member/roger
Panorama: Rogerama at photosynth.net



------------------------------------

--