PittsburghAltNet : Messages : 1-30 of 279

Great point Tony about the leakage in the domain of an attribute-based map. It would seem that it would require, at least, an extra layer of abstraction services to maintain the Domain integrity to keep the persistence *noise* out of the domain...

I’ll have to look at ActiveWriter, thanks..

Rick

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drfatbooty
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:07 PM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources

There are a few reasons I don't really like the active record pattern.
For one, all classes that must descend from the ActiveRecordBase
class. If you look a the the resources available to you when you are
doing OO analysis, inheritance is the most scarce since you can only
use it once.

Secondly, the attributes let the details of your database leak into
your domain model. My Customer class shouldn't give a crap about what
the name of my customer table is. But with active record you get
something like this:

[ActiveRecord("YUCK_CUST_001")]
public class Customer : ActiveRecordBase<Customer>

Thirdly, when I activate the intelli-sense for my customer object, I
want to see a list of the business functions that it can perform
(things like AddOrder, CalculateLoyaltyDiscount). Not things like
Save, Refresh, and Update.

In a legacy environment I like ActiveRecord even less because the
noise caused by the attribute mappings is just ugly.

There is a project out there called ActiveWriter
(http://altinoren.com/activewriter/) that is a plugin to VisualStudio
to generate the mappings/classes. The approach it takes is kind of
interesting because it uses partial classes to allow you to add
business logic to your model classes without having to worry about it
getting blown away by the codegen.

Tony

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...> wrote:
>
> Gino, Active Record does seem to be somewhat more attractive than pure
> NHibernate, but in regards to Jim's research that revealed the
performance
> hit on *dirty checks* I embrace Active Record with some caution.
Though I do
> like the idea of using attribute-based mapping..
>
>
>
> One other thing is that they advised when one might not use ActiveRecord
> would be:
>
> "Complex databases structures (legacy databases mostly) usually are not
> covered by the range of mapping features supported by ActiveRecord.
In this
> case you might consider using NHibernate directly."
>
>
>
> Gino what are your thoughts with ActiveRecord and our legacy
database or any
> legacy database for that matter?
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:57 AM
> To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources
>
>
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.
>
> Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
> mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
> to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
> ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
> NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
> factor is pretty appealing too.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gino
>
> --- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com> , "jeremyjarrell"
> <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> > different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> > posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> > may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> > think of to the page.
> >
> > http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
>

#29

From: "drfatbooty" <tony.pitluga@...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:07 pm
Subject: Re: ALT.NET Resources

drfatbooty

Offline

There are a few reasons I don't really like the active record pattern.
For one, all classes that must descend from the ActiveRecordBase
class. If you look a the the resources available to you when you are
doing OO analysis, inheritance is the most scarce since you can only
use it once.

Secondly, the attributes let the details of your database leak into
your domain model. My Customer class shouldn't give a crap about what
the name of my customer table is. But with active record you get
something like this:

[ActiveRecord("YUCK_CUST_001")]
public class Customer : ActiveRecordBase<Customer>

Thirdly, when I activate the intelli-sense for my customer object, I
want to see a list of the business functions that it can perform
(things like AddOrder, CalculateLoyaltyDiscount). Not things like
Save, Refresh, and Update.

In a legacy environment I like ActiveRecord even less because the
noise caused by the attribute mappings is just ugly.

There is a project out there called ActiveWriter
(http://altinoren.com/activewriter/) that is a plugin to VisualStudio
to generate the mappings/classes. The approach it takes is kind of
interesting because it uses partial classes to allow you to add
business logic to your model classes without having to worry about it
getting blown away by the codegen.

Tony

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...> wrote:
>
> Gino, Active Record does seem to be somewhat more attractive than pure
> NHibernate, but in regards to Jim's research that revealed the
performance
> hit on *dirty checks* I embrace Active Record with some caution.
Though I do
> like the idea of using attribute-based mapping..
>
>
>
> One other thing is that they advised when one might not use ActiveRecord
> would be:
>
> "Complex databases structures (legacy databases mostly) usually are not
> covered by the range of mapping features supported by ActiveRecord.
In this
> case you might consider using NHibernate directly."
>
>
>
> Gino what are your thoughts with ActiveRecord and our legacy
database or any
> legacy database for that matter?
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:57 AM
> To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources
>
>
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.
>
> Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
> mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
> to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
> ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
> NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
> factor is pretty appealing too.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gino
>
> --- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com> , "jeremyjarrell"
> <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> > different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> > posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> > may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> > think of to the page.
> >
> > http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
>

#28

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 4:12 pm
Subject: RE: Re: ALT.NET Resources

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Great explanation Gino!

The *gist* would have to be deep thought on a per project basis if an ORM can be used effectively to reflect domain boundaries..

I think many times if the focus on persistence can simply start off with enforcing the persistence layer boundary and exposing the services to that boundary in the domain a huge step would be made instead of introducing persistence dependencies into our domain logic.. This obviously should go without saying, but isn’t always the case. Once we get that, then engage in ORM discussions and possibly engaging custom entities through hql in our repositories…

Rick

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 9:22 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources

Rick,

I agree. For me, AR is a no brainer choice for green field, but with
legacy dbs, stuffed with stored procedures and/or triggers one has to be
very cautious.

First criteria to consider would be how much of busienss logic is in
sprocs & triggers. With much of biz logic beyond your reach, maybe
ORMing is not worth it at all, since you cannot effectively encapsulate
to begin with. Ie. if sprocs you're calling alter the data you wish to
control via NHibernate, you're in trouble right there.

Secondly, degree of relationships complexity, and how can one express
existing relationships in OR maps, either AR or NHib. Sometimes it's
hard to detect true relationships to begin with: I have seen dbs with
very little declarative RI constraints, although queries and sprocs used
implied relationships, such as FKs and composite keys. Big help are the
map generators (I've seen only MyGeneration; recently went open source)
in getting a first pass at relationship complexity.

Finally, size matters - actual cardinality of data. Like Jim's problem,
automatic caching of x thousands of instances, which pretty much calls
for custom SQL feature in NHibernate. If you have many cases like that,
your ORM benefit might fade quickly.

Alternative approach to all of this might be to 'force' a green field,
if there is a way to effectively isolate data model elements for single
subsystem. If there are relatively small number of down-dependencies,
maybe it's worth considering it.

Gino

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
wrote:
>
> Gino, Active Record does seem to be somewhat more attractive than pure
> NHibernate, but in regards to Jim's research that revealed the
performance
> hit on *dirty checks* I embrace Active Record with some caution.
Though I do
> like the idea of using attribute-based mapping..
>
>
>
> One other thing is that they advised when one might not use
ActiveRecord
> would be:
>
> "Complex databases structures (legacy databases mostly) usually are
not
> covered by the range of mapping features supported by ActiveRecord. In
this
> case you might consider using NHibernate directly."
>
>
>
> Gino what are your thoughts with ActiveRecord and our legacy database
or any
> legacy database for that matter?
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:57 AM
> To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources
>
>
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.
>
> Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
> mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
> to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
> ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
> NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
> factor is pretty appealing too.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gino
>
> --- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com> , "jeremyjarrell"
> jeremy.jarrell@ wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> > different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> > posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> > may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> > think of to the page.
> >
> > http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
>

#27

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: O/R mapper performance

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Jim

Thanks for the info, that's good to know. How difficult is it to write custom sprocs under NHibernate and refer to them with code. For example, in our current app we rely on a lot of legacy, really nasty sprocs to do a lot of business work for us in certain situations (yeah, i know). Until we can justify the time to replace those sprocs, how hard would it be to use them in conjunction with NHibernate?

On Dec 7, 2007 8:14 AM, crowdozer <yahoo@...> wrote:

Jeremy--

In regards to our talk last Friday about performance concerns with O/R
mappers, I just thought of performance related scenario that I have
run into in the past with NHibernate.

If you have a process that queries for ClassA that returns 1000s of
results and then you do a query for ClassB, before the second query is
ran, NHibernate does a dirty check on the objects loaded from the
first query. This can be be a performance hit. We identified this by
running dotTrace against our running code. The solution was to evict
the ClassA objects from the NHibernate session before doing the second
query.

We extrapolated this knowledge to mean that its a good practice for
performance to evict objects from the session if you know that you
won't be modifying them and all the lazy-loadable properties relevant
to your process have been loaded in order to avoid dirty checking
overhead. The gotcha here is if you evict your ClassA objects and then
you do another query that loads more ClassA objects, you may end up
with two instances that point to the same record.

--Jim

#26

From: "gino.leovac" <gleovac@...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 2:21 pm
Subject: Re: ALT.NET Resources

gino.leovac

Offline

Rick,

I agree. For me, AR is a no brainer choice for green field, but with
legacy dbs, stuffed with stored procedures and/or triggers one has to be
very cautious.

First criteria to consider would be how much of busienss logic is in
sprocs & triggers. With much of biz logic beyond your reach, maybe
ORMing is not worth it at all, since you cannot effectively encapsulate
to begin with. Ie. if sprocs you're calling alter the data you wish to
control via NHibernate, you're in trouble right there.

Secondly, degree of relationships complexity, and how can one express
existing relationships in OR maps, either AR or NHib. Sometimes it's
hard to detect true relationships to begin with: I have seen dbs with
very little declarative RI constraints, although queries and sprocs used
implied relationships, such as FKs and composite keys.  Big help are the
map generators (I've seen only MyGeneration; recently went open source)
in getting a first pass at relationship complexity.

Finally, size matters - actual cardinality of data. Like Jim's problem,
automatic caching of x thousands of instances, which pretty much calls
for custom SQL feature in NHibernate. If you have many cases like that,
your ORM benefit might fade quickly.

Alternative approach to all of this might be to 'force' a green field,
if there is a way to effectively isolate data model elements for single
subsystem. If there are relatively small number of down-dependencies,
maybe it's worth considering it.

Gino

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
wrote:
>
> Gino, Active Record does seem to be somewhat more attractive than pure
> NHibernate, but in regards to Jim's research that revealed the
performance
> hit on *dirty checks* I embrace Active Record with some caution.
Though I do
> like the idea of using attribute-based mapping..
>
>
>
> One other thing is that they advised when one might not use
ActiveRecord
> would be:
>
> "Complex databases structures (legacy databases mostly) usually are
not
> covered by the range of mapping features supported by ActiveRecord. In
this
> case you might consider using NHibernate directly."
>
>
>
> Gino what are your thoughts with ActiveRecord and our legacy database
or any
> legacy database for that matter?
>
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:57 AM
> To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources
>
>
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.
>
> Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
> mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
> to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
> ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
> NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
> factor is pretty appealing too.
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gino
>
> --- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com> , "jeremyjarrell"
> jeremy.jarrell@ wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys,
> >
> > I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> > different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> > posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> > may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> > think of to the page.
> >
> > http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
>

#25

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:48 am
Subject: RE: Re: ALT.NET Resources

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Gino, Active Record does seem to be somewhat more attractive than pure NHibernate, but in regards to Jim’s research that revealed the performance hit on *dirty checks* I embrace Active Record with some caution. Though I do like the idea of using attribute-based mapping..

One other thing is that they advised when one might not use ActiveRecord would be:

“Complex databases structures (legacy databases mostly) usually are not covered by the range of mapping features supported by ActiveRecord. In this case you might consider using NHibernate directly.”

Gino what are your thoughts with ActiveRecord and our legacy database or any legacy database for that matter?

Rick

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gino.leovac
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:57 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: ALT.NET Resources

Hi Jeremy,

First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.

Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
factor is pretty appealing too.

Here's the link:

http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html

Thanks,

Gino

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> think of to the page.
>
> http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
>
> Jeremy
>

#24

From: "crowdozer" <yahoo@...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:14 pm
Subject: O/R mapper performance

crowdozer

Offline

Jeremy--

In regards to our talk last Friday about performance concerns with O/R
mappers, I just thought of performance related scenario that I have
run into in the past with NHibernate.

If you have a process that queries for ClassA that returns 1000s of
results and then you do a query for ClassB, before the second query is
ran, NHibernate does a dirty check on the objects loaded from the
first query. This can be be a performance hit. We identified this by
running dotTrace against our running code. The solution was to evict
the ClassA objects from the NHibernate session before doing the second
query.

We extrapolated this knowledge to mean that its a good practice for
performance to evict objects from the session if you know that you
won't be modifying them and all the lazy-loadable properties relevant
to your process have been loaded in order to avoid dirty checking
overhead. The gotcha here is if you evict your ClassA objects and then
you do another query that loads more ClassA objects, you may end up
with two instances that point to the same record.

--Jim

#23

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 3:05 am
Subject: RE: Re: ALT.NET Resources

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Gino, glad you found the user group.. I totally forgot to forward the link to you the other day as life/work happened when I got back to my desk… Many apologies!!!

Rick

#22

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:10 am
Subject: Re: Re: ALT.NET Resources

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Hi Gino,

You're welcome, I'm just thrilled that I have other people to talk about alternative technologies with now :o)

Thanks for the info about ActiveRecord, I've added it to our wiki page on the PittsburghAlt.NET site.

Thanks!
Jeremy

On Dec 6, 2007 10:56 AM, gino.leovac <gino.leovac@...> wrote:

Hi Jeremy,

First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.

Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
factor is pretty appealing too.

Here's the link:

http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html

Thanks,

Gino

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt). I'm sure I
> may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> think of to the page.
>
> http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
>
> Jeremy
>

#21

From: "gino.leovac" <gino.leovac@...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:56 pm
Subject: Re: ALT.NET Resources

gino.leovac

Offline

Hi Jeremy,

First, thanks for getting this started. I think it's pretty good idea.

Regarding OR mappers, I think Castle's ActiveRecord deserves notable
mentioning. Although at only RC2 release, it's pretty good and likely
to improve. It's a big move from RC1, with support for generics, and
ability to drop/create data model - maintaining sql scripts for your
NHibernate model is no longer needed. Finally, 'the price is right'
factor is pretty appealing too.

Here's the link:

http://www.castleproject.org/activerecord/index.html

Thanks,

Gino

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
> different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
> posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt).  I'm sure I
> may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
> think of to the page.
>
> http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx
>
> Jeremy
>

#20

From: "jeremyjarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:44 pm
Subject: ALT.NET Resources

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Hey guys,

I added a resource page to our wiki listing links to a bunch of the
different technologies we talked about Friday night (thanks for
posting all of the O/R Mappers links to the list, Matt).  I'm sure I
may have forgotten a few, so feel free to add any more that you can
think of to the page.

http://www.pittsburghalt.net/ALT.NET%20Tools.ashx

Jeremy

#19

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:29 pm
Subject: RE: O/R Mappers

rick_a_corbin

Offline

http://www.llblgen.com
http://www.entityspaces.net
http://ibatis.apache.org

Thanks Matt! I think I’m going to investigate Ibatis further.

Rick

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Otto
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 9:42 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] O/R Mappers

I was able to find my old notes from when we were evaluating O/R mappers. Along with Ibatis.net and nHibernate, the other products that had made it onto our short list were LLBLGen Pro and EntitySpaces. Unfortunately I can't give you much info on how they were to use, because like Ibatis.net we didn't get a chance to examine them further due to a decision to not use an ORM.

Links:

Hope this helps,

Matt

#18

From: "Matt Otto" <mattotto@...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:42 pm
Subject: O/R Mappers

matthew.otto

Offline

http://www.llblgen.com
http://www.entityspaces.net
http://ibatis.apache.org

Links:

Hope this helps,

Matt

#17

From: "jeremyjarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:53 pm
Subject: Reminder - ALT.NET Meeting Tonight

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Just a reminder...

We'll be having our first Pittsburgh ALT.NET meeting tonight at the
Starbucks on McKnight Road at 6PM.  You can find directions here...

http://www.pittsburghalt.net/

See you there!

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#16

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: First Meeting Announcement

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Yup, that's the one. The standalone one, not the one inside of the Target. Thanks for clarifying this :)

On Nov 29, 2007 10:26 AM, Matt Otto < mattotto@...> wrote:

Google maps puts them in sort of the wrong spots, but the one further south at the intersection of Siebert and McKnight (Starbucks on the left if heading north) is the one I think we'd want. The other one is inside a Target.

Matt

On Nov 29, 2007 10:06 AM, drfatbooty <tony.pitluga@...> wrote:

Jeremy,
Great job putting this together. I'm really looking forward to it.

There seems to be two starbucks on McKnight Rd. Which one were you
thinking of:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=starbucks&near=Wexford,+PA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.536764,-80.011368&spn=0.188124,0.359802&z=12&om=1

Tony
--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> We have a location for our first meeting!!!
>
> We'll be meeting at the Starbucks on McKnight road, this Friday
> (November 30) at 6PM. We'll be talking about ALT.NET in general,
> ideas for our own little spot of ALT.NET here in Pittsburgh, and our
> experience with OR/Ms.
>
> You can find more information, as well as directions to the Starbucks,
> on our website (http://www.pittsburghalt.net).
>
> Hope to see you all there!
>

#15

From: "Matt Otto" <mattotto@...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: Re: First Meeting Announcement

matthew.otto

Offline

Google maps puts them in sort of the wrong spots, but the one further south at the intersection of Siebert and McKnight (Starbucks on the left if heading north) is the one I think we'd want. The other one is inside a Target.

Matt

On Nov 29, 2007 10:06 AM, drfatbooty <tony.pitluga@...> wrote:

Jeremy,
Great job putting this together. I'm really looking forward to it.

There seems to be two starbucks on McKnight Rd. Which one were you
thinking of:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=starbucks&near=Wexford,+PA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.536764,-80.011368&spn=0.188124,0.359802&z=12&om=1

Tony
--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> We have a location for our first meeting!!!
>
> We'll be meeting at the Starbucks on McKnight road, this Friday
> (November 30) at 6PM. We'll be talking about ALT.NET in general,
> ideas for our own little spot of ALT.NET here in Pittsburgh, and our
> experience with OR/Ms.
>
> You can find more information, as well as directions to the Starbucks,
> on our website (http://www.pittsburghalt.net).
>
> Hope to see you all there!
>

#14

From: "drfatbooty" <tony.pitluga@...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:06 pm
Subject: Re: First Meeting Announcement

drfatbooty

Offline

Jeremy,
Great job putting this together. I'm really looking forward to it.

There seems to be two starbucks on McKnight Rd. Which one were you
thinking of:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=starbucks&ne\
ar=Wexford,+PA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.536764,-80.011368&spn=0.188124,0.359802&z=12&om=1

Tony
--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> We have a location for our first meeting!!!
>
> We'll be meeting at the Starbucks on McKnight road, this Friday
> (November 30) at 6PM.  We'll be talking about ALT.NET in general,
> ideas for our own little spot of ALT.NET here in Pittsburgh, and our
> experience with OR/Ms.
>
> You can find more information, as well as directions to the Starbucks,
> on our website (http://www.pittsburghalt.net).
>
> Hope to see you all there!
>

#13

From: "jeremyjarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:51 am
Subject: First Meeting Announcement

jeremyjarrell

Offline

We have a location for our first meeting!!!

We'll be meeting at the Starbucks on McKnight road, this Friday
(November 30) at 6PM.  We'll be talking about ALT.NET in general,
ideas for our own little spot of ALT.NET here in Pittsburgh, and our
experience with OR/Ms.

You can find more information, as well as directions to the Starbucks,
on our website (http://www.pittsburghalt.net).

Hope to see you all there!

#12

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:43 am
Subject: Re: Re: November 30th Meeting

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Sounds we like have a consensus!
Our first meeting will be Friday, November 30th at 6PM at the Starbucks on McKnight road.

We'll be talking about ideas for the group, ALT.NET itself, and OR/Ms. No need to prepare, just bring your experience with OR/Ms or your desire to learn about them.

Jeremy

On Nov 28, 2007 8:53 AM, Matt Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:

Sounds like a good location - anytime in the evening works for me.

Matt

On Nov 26, 2007 9:49 PM, Jeremy Jarrell < jeremy.jarrell@... > wrote:

Sounds like we're getting more of a consensus. I'm game for Starbucks for the convenience and potential lack of crowds.

Here's a Starbucks on McKnight road...

Starbucks McKnight - Siebert
4885 McKnight Road
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15237
(412) 364-9996

I basically just chose this one arbitrarily (found it online) so feel free to suggest alternatives.

Jeremy

On Nov 26, 2007 7:30 PM, rlcorbin <rlcorbin@...> wrote:

Starbucks probably isn't a magnet Friday night destination for most; well, at least until closing time to sober up. Sounds like a good location choice. Hopefully I can make it since I'm nursing a bad case of Bronchitis from the flu right now; too much of the Pittsburgh weather I guess� haha!

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Jarrell
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:17 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: November 30th Meeting

The more I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if a coffee shop may not be a bad choice at least for the first few meetings or so. It would give us a chance to get together without having to worry about planning for a location on a Friday night, especially until we figure out what our average turn out will be and can plan accordingly. It should also be quiet enough (relative to a bar, anyway) to give us a chance to talk.

How does a centrally located Starbucks (or other coffee shop) sound to everyone?

On Nov 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@... > wrote:

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside. For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself. Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee
> shop? Brewery?
>

> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In

PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

#11

From: "Matt Otto" <mattotto@...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: Re: November 30th Meeting

matthew.otto

Offline

Sounds like a good location - anytime in the evening works for me.

Matt

On Nov 26, 2007 9:49 PM, Jeremy Jarrell <jeremy.jarrell@... > wrote:

Sounds like we're getting more of a consensus. I'm game for Starbucks for the convenience and potential lack of crowds.

Here's a Starbucks on McKnight road...

Starbucks McKnight - Siebert
4885 McKnight Road
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15237
(412) 364-9996

I basically just chose this one arbitrarily (found it online) so feel free to suggest alternatives.

Jeremy

On Nov 26, 2007 7:30 PM, rlcorbin <rlcorbin@...> wrote:

Starbucks probably isn't a magnet Friday night destination for most; well, at least until closing time to sober up. Sounds like a good location choice. Hopefully I can make it since I'm nursing a bad case of Bronchitis from the flu right now; too much of the Pittsburgh weather I guess� haha!

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Jarrell
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:17 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: November 30th Meeting

The more I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if a coffee shop may not be a bad choice at least for the first few meetings or so. It would give us a chance to get together without having to worry about planning for a location on a Friday night, especially until we figure out what our average turn out will be and can plan accordingly. It should also be quiet enough (relative to a bar, anyway) to give us a chance to talk.

How does a centrally located Starbucks (or other coffee shop) sound to everyone?

On Nov 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@... > wrote:

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside. For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself. Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee
> shop? Brewery?
>

> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In

PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

#10

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:49 am
Subject: Re: Re: November 30th Meeting

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Sounds like we're getting more of a consensus. I'm game for Starbucks for the convenience and potential lack of crowds.

Here's a Starbucks on McKnight road...

Starbucks McKnight - Siebert
4885 McKnight Road
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15237
(412) 364-9996

I basically just chose this one arbitrarily (found it online) so feel free to suggest alternatives.

Jeremy

On Nov 26, 2007 7:30 PM, rlcorbin <rlcorbin@...> wrote:

Starbucks probably isn't a magnet Friday night destination for most; well, at least until closing time to sober up. Sounds like a good location choice. Hopefully I can make it since I'm nursing a bad case of Bronchitis from the flu right now; too much of the Pittsburgh weather I guess� haha!

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Jarrell
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:17 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: November 30th Meeting

The more I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if a coffee shop may not be a bad choice at least for the first few meetings or so. It would give us a chance to get together without having to worry about planning for a location on a Friday night, especially until we figure out what our average turn out will be and can plan accordingly. It should also be quiet enough (relative to a bar, anyway) to give us a chance to talk.

How does a centrally located Starbucks (or other coffee shop) sound to everyone?

On Nov 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@... > wrote:

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside. For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself. Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee
> shop? Brewery?
>

> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In

PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:30 am
Subject: RE: Re: November 30th Meeting

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Starbucks probably isn’t a magnet Friday night destination for most; well, at least until closing time to sober up. Sounds like a good location choice. Hopefully I can make it since I’m nursing a bad case of Bronchitis from the flu right now; too much of the Pittsburgh weather I guess… haha!

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Jarrell
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 10:17 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PittsburghAltNet] Re: November 30th Meeting

The more I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if a coffee shop may not be a bad choice at least for the first few meetings or so. It would give us a chance to get together without having to worry about planning for a location on a Friday night, especially until we figure out what our average turn out will be and can plan accordingly. It should also be quiet enough (relative to a bar, anyway) to give us a chance to talk.

How does a centrally located Starbucks (or other coffee shop) sound to everyone?

On Nov 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@... > wrote:

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside. For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself. Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee
> shop? Brewery?
>

> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In

PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Re: November 30th Meeting

jeremyjarrell

Offline

On Nov 24, 2007 4:19 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@... > wrote:

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside. For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself. Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee
> shop? Brewery?
>
> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In
PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,

> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

From: "Matthew Otto" <mattotto@...>
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:19 pm
Subject: Re: November 30th Meeting

matthew.otto

Offline

Hope everyone had a good holiday.

Even though I live up in the North Hills, unfortunately I can't make
too many good recommendations. Normally when I go out its to the
Southside, Strip District, Shadyside.  For some reason we never really
end up going out to anywhere in our area. But here are a few ideas off
the top of my head.

As far as coffee shops are concerned, there are a few Starbucks in
between the North Side and Cranberry on both McKnight Road and Rt. 19,
plus if I'm not mistaken a few in Cranberry itself.   Breweries -
there's the Penn Brewery on the North Side. Good beer, but I think
they have music on Friday night so it might make talking a little
difficult. I had heard that there is a brewpub of some sort in
Cranberry now, but I don't know any more about it than that. Also,
there are also a ton of restaurants along McKnight Road and in
Cranberry, so we could always just pick one of those that is agreeable
to everyone and has a bar area and meet up there.

Matt



--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Jarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city.  Does
anyone have a
> good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there?  Coffee
> shop?  Brewery?
>
> On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto <mattotto@...> wrote:
>
> >   I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
> > everyone is fine with me.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In
PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com<PittsburghAltNet%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "jeremyjarrell"
> >
> > <jeremy.jarrell@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey ALT.NETters!
> > >
> > > Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
> > >
> > > Location...
> > > Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to
pick
> > > something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> > > with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> > > here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> > > this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a
bar or
> > > a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation
facility
> > > but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> > > The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> > > where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> > > have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> > > places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> > > isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> > > we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> > > Monroeville.
> > >
> > > Topic...
> > > This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> > > ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> > > through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> > > ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> > > dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a
round
> > > table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> > > just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> > > mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms
we've
> > > worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> > > the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> > > already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance
to see
> > > other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> > > all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> > > I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> > > suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> > > discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> > > like!
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

From: "Jeremy Jarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:44 am
Subject: Re: Re: November 30th Meeting

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Sounds like we're gravitating towards north of the city. Does anyone have a good suggestion for somewhere that would fit our needs up there? Coffee shop? Brewery?

On Nov 20, 2007 9:28 PM, Matthew Otto < mattotto@...> wrote:

I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
everyone is fine with me.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"

<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Hey ALT.NETters!
>
> Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
>
> Location...
> Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to pick
> something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
> with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
> this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a bar or
> a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation facility
> but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
> have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
> we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> Monroeville.
>
> Topic...
> This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
> through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a round
> table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
> just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
> mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms we've
> worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
> already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance to see
> other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
> all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
> like!
>
> Any thoughts?
> Jeremy
>

From: "Matthew Otto" <mattotto@...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:28 am
Subject: Re: November 30th Meeting

matthew.otto

Offline

I'm located in the North Hills, but whatever location works best for
everyone is fine with me.

Matt

--- In PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com, "jeremyjarrell"
<jeremy.jarrell@...> wrote:
>
> Hey ALT.NETters!
>
> Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...
>
> Location...
> Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to pick
> something that worked well for everyone.  I'm not incredibly familiar
> with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
> here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions.  I would like to keep
> this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a bar or
> a coffee shop.  I don't believe we need a formal presentation facility
> but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
> The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
> where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening.  Does anyone
> have any ideas?  I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
> places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
> isn't exactly centrally located).  Depending on locations of everyone
> we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
> Monroeville.
>
> Topic...
> This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
> ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc.  After we get
> through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
> ALT.NET related topics.  What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
> dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a round
> table with a topic decided on before hand.  I think our group will be
> just small enough to make this work.  The first topic that comes to
> mind for me is OR/Ms.  We could share our stories of which OR/Ms we've
> worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
> the advantages and disadvantages of each.  The idea is that if your
> already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance to see
> other sides of the topic.  If you're not familiar with the topic at
> all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
> I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
> suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
> discussion as well.  Let's make this group into something that we all
> like!
>
> Any thoughts?
> Jeremy
>

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:16 am
Subject: RE: November 30th Meeting

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Sorry, Cranberry is in the North Side, just over the Allegheny/Butler county border.

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rlcorbin
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:07 PM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PittsburghAltNet] November 30th Meeting

Hi Jeremy, a few of us work and live near or in Cranberry Township.

Rick

From: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jeremyjarrell
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:37 AM
To: PittsburghAltNet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PittsburghAltNet] November 30th Meeting

Hey ALT.NETters!

Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...

Location...
Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to pick
something that worked well for everyone. I'm not incredibly familiar
with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions. I would like to keep
this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a bar or
a coffee shop. I don't believe we need a formal presentation facility
but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening. Does anyone
have any ideas? I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
isn't exactly centrally located). Depending on locations of everyone
we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
Monroeville.

Topic...
This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc. After we get
through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
ALT.NET related topics. What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a round
table with a topic decided on before hand. I think our group will be
just small enough to make this work. The first topic that comes to
mind for me is OR/Ms. We could share our stories of which OR/Ms we've
worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
the advantages and disadvantages of each. The idea is that if your
already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance to see
other sides of the topic. If you're not familiar with the topic at
all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
discussion as well. Let's make this group into something that we all
like!

Any thoughts?
Jeremy

From: "rlcorbin" <rlcorbin@...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:07 am
Subject: RE: November 30th Meeting

rick_a_corbin

Offline

Hi Jeremy, a few of us work and live near or in Cranberry Township.

Rick

From: "jeremyjarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:37 pm
Subject: November 30th Meeting

jeremyjarrell

Offline

Hey ALT.NETters!

Let's talk about the November 30th meeting...

Location...
Right now I don't have a location picked out because I wanted to pick
something that worked well for everyone.  I'm not incredibly familiar
with the various after work hang outs in the city (I've only worked
here about 6 months) so I'm up for suggestions.  I would like to keep
this as an informal pub club so I'm picturing somewhere like a bar or
a coffee shop.  I don't believe we need a formal presentation facility
but I'm sure we could borrow space from the Tech Council if need be.
The drawback to a bar is that we may have trouble finding a place
where we can sit around and talk on a Friday evening.  Does anyone
have any ideas?  I currently work on the North Side so I know a few
places over here, but I'm up for anything (I realize the North Side
isn't exactly centrally located).  Depending on locations of everyone
we could also considered less traveled places like Greentree or
Monroeville.

Topic...
This first meeting will simply be an informal meeting about what
ALT.NET is, what we want to do with this group, etc.  After we get
through the initial housekeeping tasks we can actually talk about
ALT.NET related topics.  What I'm envisioning is in lieu of having a
dedicated presenter each week that we could treat each week as a round
table with a topic decided on before hand.  I think our group will be
just small enough to make this work.  The first topic that comes to
mind for me is OR/Ms.  We could share our stories of which OR/Ms we've
worked with, which ones we like and which ones we don't, and debate
the advantages and disadvantages of each.  The idea is that if your
already familiar with one side of a topic you may get a chance to see
other sides of the topic.  If you're not familiar with the topic at
all then you have a chance to see both sides of a topic all at once.
I'm throwing the OR/M topic out only as an example so feel free to
suggest other topics as well as completely different formats for
discussion as well.  Let's make this group into something that we all
like!

Any thoughts?
Jeremy

From: "jeremyjarrell" <jeremy.jarrell@...>
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:50 am
Subject: First meeting time and date announcement

jeremyjarrell

Offline