Precolumbian_Inscriptions : Messages : 11835-11864 of 12092

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:44 PM

Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america'

catlin tells that the andes rose and fell repeatedly in the 19th c. he said a quake opened the earth there, sending forth steam and water, and where a village stood, a lake appeared.

[ i will adjust my theory, that the caverns below the andes could have water, with air above. what a boon to the desert coast if they could penetrate into the caverns, and lead aquaducts off. at least until an eruption. for all we know, this could be the source of some valley rivers. ]

[ looking at the southwestern usa by google earth is revealing. every basin up to 5500 ft or so, has signs of having been filled with seawater. if it were salts left from evaporation of fresh over eons, it would be in a concentrated basin, but the entire basin is white with white sands or salt, and has left the former shores outlined. this is in accord with either elevator plate movements, or of mega tsunamis coming far ashore, and being retained in basins. rivers tend to cut channels over time, not stay in a basin from mya. that old theory has serious flaws. a most violent disaster is reflected by that seen across the sw and west. it doesnt require a phd to see this. it it had been fresh, it would probably be still flowing, but they remain dry. seawater had reached these high elevations, up to 5500 feet, and then seawater evaporated from basins. these basins were unconnected, as if water spashed into them from waves, rather than a drop in a plate. it would be interesting to check the level of the old shore, to see if its on our current level.

most of the basins run ne to sw, it may indicate that the tsunamis came from off southern california or the sea of cortez. it has the appearance of a recent geological event. its possible that the oceans roared far ashore from many directions, for the nw usa has salt and sand trails running due west, and ok has signs of the sea coming in at e tx. a poleshift could account for that seen. 5,000 or 12,000 years ago poleshift, or great tsunamis from martinique within the same span. that volcano appears to be on the eastern rim of a submerged super volcano. the debris thrown up to the east, could make it an impact crater. ]

catlin brings up the mystery of erratic blocks, huge stones left thousands of miles from their native beds. only huge tsunamis could carry such masses. we need to plot the route of these. west to east, like the ark? mountains thrown on their sides. lateral pressure bore on them from the east. the expanding crust from the mid-atlanta ridge?

he says gold is more often found on the western slopes of mountains.

author did travel lots, in the americas and europe.

all of the granite he had seen was shattered or fractured.

[im afraid catlin was a better painter, than a geologist. ] he has the expanding earth, shrinking from contraction due to cooling.

catlin speaks of 'tens of thousands of years' for mountain uplift.

he says the apalachian mts also have a river under feeding the gulf stream. [ maybe okeechobee is the outlet. ]

the two most disturbed districts of rocks in america were given as labrador and grenada. using google earth, montserrat looks to have had a violent past. there is a photo-link on the island that shows the volcano active at night, with lava flows, the other pics shows giant rocks and boulders flung all over. volcanoes on each end of the island. city of plymouth half buried in ash. the whole arc of islands from grenada to dominican rep look to be on a ring of fire. beautiful places, with flowers, waterfalls, palm trees, aquamarine sea - but potentially death traps. volcanic soil seems to be very fertile, all grows lush. i would be afraid to even visit these places.

[wow, the more i study the eastern caribbean sea, and the arc of islands out from the grenadines, the more it looks like an impact crater, of 900 mile diameter. its younger and larger than the one proposed for the yucatan of 65 mya, that our lads say made the dinosaurs extinct. i would consider this one as cause for the megafauna great kill-off. lets call it white's crater. it came in at a low angle from the west. it could have mostly depopulated mexico, as well as swept the megafauna to siberia by the great tsunamis that the event generated. this could well be the cause for the cutting away much land, leaving plateaus in venezuela, and along the isthmus. i truly think that this is an important discovery! the tsunamis were probably over a mile high, reaching to salt lake. im amazed that others did not take note of the seafloor along that arc of islands. its less than 12,000 years ago, imho. no wonder the mountains are so shattered on grenada. it hit so hard, that it may have cracked into the magma chamber. this volcanic arc is not an extension of the andes. its an anomaly. this event and its tsunamis might explain the red clay across ga and the carolinas. im surprised that cayce didnt mention it. the meteorite was likely 300 miles diameter, as shown by the path it cut. ]

manicouagan island west of labrador is also an impact crater. i suppose that must be known.

the book is a bit boring, but it is thought provoking.

mike

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#11837

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:41 am
Subject: Fw: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america'

aumsparky

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=16.308875,-67.788648&z=5&t=h&hl=en

judge for yourself if this could be a 900 mile diameter impact crater, that could have killed the megafauna.

many dont have google earth, so i send this way.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:44 PM

Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america'

catlin tells that the andes rose and fell repeatedly in the 19th c. he said a quake opened the earth there, sending forth steam and water, and where a village stood, a lake appeared.

he says gold is more often found on the western slopes of mountains.

author did travel lots, in the americas and europe.

all of the granite he had seen was shattered or fractured.

[im afraid catlin was a better painter, than a geologist. ] he has the expanding earth, shrinking from contraction due to cooling.

catlin speaks of 'tens of thousands of years' for mountain uplift.

he says the apalachian mts also have a river under feeding the gulf stream. [ maybe okeechobee is the outlet. ]

manicouagan island west of labrador is also an impact crater. i suppose that must be known.

the book is a bit boring, but it is thought provoking.

mike

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#11838

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america' - impact tsunami

aumsparky

catlin says that the subsidence of the antilles was 'probably the most stupendous catastrophe that has happened on the surface of the globe.' his cause was the underground stream from the andes undermined the islands, and volcanic activity. the islands are not aligned with the andes. he may have had the wrong cause for the shattered rock.

an astronomer friend thinks the trench and crater on the seafloor in the caribbean sea is too wide and not long enough to be an impact crater, and a glancing blow is unlikely. after looking again at the seafloor with google earth, the glancing blow idea seems to have more merit than he intended. the object came in fast and low from wsw, gouged a trench, struck the edge of cuba, and seemed to rebound toward ese, exiting over the rim and debris. as i recall, the presence of micro crystals there would prove an impact, so the truth should not be hard to determine, if any feel scientific.

i used google earth to search the entire globe for similar marks on the seafloor, but found nothing to compare. for starters, we can say that found is not a natural formation, or its unique. the marks are an anomaly, the arc in near a perfect circle of volcanoes, where it is found, is also an anomaly. this alone is cause for further study. the evidence of fractured and shattered rock in the antilles is an anomaly as well.

on the chance, that this generation does not investigate these things, i will try to write a paper on it, and hope a copy is preserved.

the ruins of central america should be examined to see if its likely that they were standing when the miles-high tsunamis raced thru. i did a brief search of the pictures of the ruins, and the structures remaining do not deny that tsunamis may have been involved in their destruction. pyramids survived but stelas were broken at ground level.

nivens reported the valley of mexico was destroyed twice by floods or wave action. the basin would fill up, until a dike was released.

formerly, it was mentioned how much of central america along the isthmus was washed away by tsunamis, leaving central plateaus.

there are salt lakes, and former great salt lakes in the west and southwest. many of these are at high elevation, over a mile above sealevel. almost all are dry now, with salt residue. mostly, these were not rain run-off deposits. the traces of salt are more often still seen in the west, due to its aridy. in the east, the rains washed away the salt, leaving red clay in some places. sand, salt, and red clay, show that the sea had came ashore.

the deposits of megafauna in the north give us a good estimate on the date of the mega tsunami event. some species existed over a longer span than others, but from that found the date should be more accurate than any other date in geology. some species of megafauna, like the mammoth, lived until circa 3000 bce in the se usa.

its almost certain that the mega tsunami that carried the mega fauna north was a recent event. in some cases, the fast-frozen mammoth meat is still edible. the explorers club enjoyed steaks of it.

the clovis-point hunters were active before the mega fauna kill-off. they have been dated about 12,500 bce. thus, the great tsunami event was after the clovis people.

from a careful examination of the ruins in central america, we may determine which were built before the tsunami, showing the expected damage from the se, and those that show no such effects. they are so poorly dated, that we cannot accept the date that they conclude, but the info will be useful for some of us to pin the event closer to the right time. it is very likely that a high culture existed there when the tsunami event occurred. its just as certain that the high culture was destroyed by that event. the cosmic event seemed to have happened between 9000 bce and 3000 bce. perhaps the codices have a clue, like depicting a space object involved in their flood tradition.

catlin never dreamed that his words about the antilles would lead to a theory like i propose. i wasnt seeking a discovery, but the thing presented itself. i have sought an explanation for the other effects for many years, and its a relief to have a plausible cause.

it should be noted that siberia has the effects of more than one event. the fast frozen mammoth was probably a poleshift event. while those of the bonebeds on the northern islands were swept across the arctic ocean from the tsunami that began in the caribbean sea.

oddly, of the older impact they cite for yucatan, no traces can be seen from space. im surprised that it was so fully accepted, yet this one was overlooked.

the impact of our crater or bounce impact site cracked into the magma chamber, then the broken plate uplifted. the antilles took a severe blow.

i invite the earth scientists to explain it all away, or to come up with a better scenario or theory. the sudden disappearance of these high cultures, and the seeming absence of ancient population of north america, is all made clear now. as is the cause of the megafauna kill-off. this is perhaps the most important event in the prehistory of the americas, right up there with the sinking of atlantis.

the near-global disaster of 3000 bce has been a mystery. this event may be the one, but the species found in the north may point to an earlier time.

i expect to study the craters on the moon to see if any craters near this large are evident. seen, by the rims still being sharp, and few or no smaller craters within. the number and size of near-earth objects shows that such an event could happen anytime.

mike

#11839

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america' - impact tsunami

aumsparky

http://www.barringercrater.com/about/history_4.php

our scientists only recently could believe that rocks fall from space. it was 1908 before barringer finally convinced our lads that the crater in az was from a meteorite impact.

its only been about 100 years since scientists were able to see that this crater was an impact, and not a volcano. so we should not expect them to recognize this new discovery as valid.

here is a picture of a large lunar crater. its rim is sharp, and it looks very recent.

large impacts are not always from mya.

catlin cites traditions of the tribes of the south, 'the water was seen coming in waves like mountains from the east'. the whole region sank, including the gulf of mexico, and the caribbean sea. it has rebounded somewhat. proof is found at palenque and uxmal, that they had lain on the seafoor for thousands of years. he cites the salt and marine deposits that tsunamis could have brought ashore.

bourbourg translated a toltec codice, 'teo amoxtli', a history of the cataclysm of the antilles. volcanic convulsions for four days and nights.

[ the oil wells of venezuela and tar on trinidad support the idea that forest land has been covered by the seabed. an impact of that great mass could have broken plates. he presents much evidence that the caribbean sea had been dry land. ]

the weight of water when the sea invades the land as tsunamis, can depress the plate, so that the sea retains the land.

he rightly says that travel at behring straits could have just as easy been east to west.

in his travels he visited 120 native american tribes. the central and southern tribes tell of two great floods.

mike

#11840

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:04 am
Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america' - impact tsunami

aumsparky

[ in response to author saying that much of yucatan and south to panama, had been below the sea. i suppose there could have been a tsunami and a plate drop during an earthquake, all caused by such a large impact from space. with tsunamis several miles high, it is not necessary to have elevator plate action to explain the record. im relieved, after having found evidence of seawater in so many places, america seemed very unstable and unsafe. cosmic impacts are normally a one time event.

a glancing blow from space could change the poles, or rotational speed. perhaps the year went from 360 to 365.25 days then. a glancing blow from the west would make the earth turn faster. a low angle strike from the west is more likely to bounce off, than one from the east. identifying this one event helps bring closure to so many earth mysteries, not only for the americas, but the world. ]

[ since i dont rely upon the concensus, i will accept this impact as a valid event, that happened within the last 10,000 years. imagine a disaster that erased a 900 mile circle, and destroyed life for a few thousand miles in every direction, with fire and huge waves. the recovery from an event of that magnitude could have taken ages. our largest h bomb is not as powerful. people were happy to live two miles above the sea after that in the andes. those northern bonebeds and muck must contain men as well. the hunters were near the game. any survivors either migrated or starved. please read dr hibbens on the megafauna deposits of alaska. the beds were being excavated with bull dozers, looking for gold. they were not looking for human bones. as far as i know, nobody has examined them since. all of the most important sites in the americas are left mostly unexplored. its ripe for great discoveries. ]

the great bison herds are a strange thing. did they survive the great tsunami kill-off, or were they introduced later? i need to take another look at that, but it seems there were breaks in time when there were fewer bison. there was no place of certain safety in their range, that i can locate, from such waves. how could bison survive, but not horses? the debris in tsunamis crashes rocks, trees, etc, and animals mixed, so their bones were tangled together in the deposits. only a tsunami could have done it.

structures facing the impact crater may have a burnt look on that side. that side also took the brunt of the waves, so may have those walls knocked down afterwards.

catlin had the idea that mountains collapse into the open vaults below them.

book ends

mike

#11841

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:11 pm
Subject: Fw: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america' - impact tsunami

aumsparky

http://www.barringercrater.com/about/history_4.php

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:45 PM

Subject: Re: [Ancient-Mysteries] catlin: 'lifted and subsided rocks of america' - impact tsunami

our scientists only recently could believe that rocks fall from space. it was 1908 before barringer finally convinced our lads that the crater in az was from a meteorite impact.

its only been about 100 years since scientists were able to see that this crater was an impact, and not a volcano. so we should not expect them to recognize this new discovery as valid.

here is a picture of a large lunar crater. its rim is sharp, and it looks very recent.

large impacts are not always from mya.

bourbourg translated a toltec codice, 'teo amoxtli', a history of the cataclysm of the antilles. volcanic convulsions for four days and nights.

the weight of water when the sea invades the land as tsunamis, can depress the plate, so that the sea retains the land.

he rightly says that travel at behring straits could have just as easy been east to west.

in his travels he visited 120 native american tribes. the central and southern tribes tell of two great floods.

mike

#11842

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:27 am
Subject: Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
I'm in northern Nicaragua, and last week when I went to buy some locally made
bricks,I bought an item that the owner said was excavated on his property, while
he was digging clay for his bricks.  The item appears to be a drinking vessel. 
It has three legs with finger holes and what appear to be thumbrests on two of
the legs.  The bowl area is approximately eight inches in diameter, and the
three legs protrude about an inch from that.  There is a gargoyle type head
protruding on one side, and a damaged protrusion on the opposite side (much like
a frog's nose and eyes.  The finish is faded off-white paint or glaze with much
crazing.  There are what appear to be blue lines inside at the bottom edge that
ring the bowl, and numerous different panels? painted all around the inside
wall.  Most of these are faded and although fairly simple line drawings, are not
easy to describe.  One, may be a snake with an open mouth at the left, with the
body extending to the right and curving upward to what may be a head. then a
smaller head and body with outstretched arms sitting in the lap of the
snake/man/woman.  There are also numerous panels around the outside, some with
the blue and what appears to be a dull red.
Is there any safe way to clean this?  Can anybody tell me what it was used for? 
I would think that it was ceremonial, probably too big for blood, so maybe
chocolate.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RWC

#11843

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:40 am
Subject: Re: Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

aumsparky

welcome to the group. you have acquired an interesting item. determining its purpose or use, may take longer. i would recommend making photographs of the cup, the higher the resolution the better. it sounds like there are inscriptions, that should be studied. strange that it was found in clay, without a burial or other objects. perhaps an ancient traveller lost it, or waves carried it there.

northern nicaragua is near several high cultures of ancients, which may have overlapped. the face and extent of land in that region may have changed much over recent ages.

besides the maya, cholulan refugees settled there. atlantean relics from two periods might be found. the earliest is associated with the stone balls of costa rica.

your description was good and detailed, but seeing it, and recording the glyphs, is an important next step. i dont think the cup was for daily use, which makes it more interesting. its amazing that the cup survived intact.

its fascinating and a mystery, why the earliest people settled to the south. we should specify it as among the first of high culture in central america.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:27 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

Hi,
I'm in northern Nicaragua, and last week when I went to buy some locally made bricks,I bought an item that the owner said was excavated on his property, while he was digging clay for his bricks. The item appears to be a drinking vessel. It has three legs with finger holes and what appear to be thumbrests on two of the legs. The bowl area is approximately eight inches in diameter, and the three legs protrude about an inch from that. There is a gargoyle type head protruding on one side, and a damaged protrusion on the opposite side (much like a frog's nose and eyes. The finish is faded off-white paint or glaze with much crazing. There are what appear to be blue lines inside at the bottom edge that ring the bowl, and numerous different panels? painted all around the inside wall. Most of these are faded and although fairly simple line drawings, are not easy to describe. One, may be a snake with an open mouth at the left, with the body extending to the right and curving upward to what may be a head. then a smaller head and body with outstretched arms sitting in the lap of the snake/man/woman. There are also numerous panels around the outside, some with the blue and what appears to be a dull red.
Is there any safe way to clean this? Can anybody tell me what it was used for? I would think that it was ceremonial, probably too big for blood, so maybe chocolate.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RWC

#11844

From: Dick Cobbs <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:30 am
Subject: Re: Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I thought of a possibility; I was thinking that it may float, due to its shape. So, it may have floated down stream. The iconography appears quite different from Mayan; I'm not sure how to describe it, possibly more basic, more simple. I can tell that it is completely decorated, but greatly faded. I have tried examining with a black light, but don't see much change. Is there some way to bring out the detail without harming the vessel. I'm going to upload some pictures to the site.

Thanks Again,

RWC

From: "aumsparky@..." <aumsparky@...>
To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

    welcome to the group. you have acquired an interesting item. determining its purpose or use, may take longer. i would recommend making photographs of the cup, the higher the resolution the better. it sounds like there are inscriptions, that should be studied. strange that it was found in clay, without a burial or other objects. perhaps an ancient traveller lost it, or waves carried it there.

    northern nicaragua is near several high cultures of ancients, which may have overlapped. the face and extent of land in that region may have changed much over recent ages.

    besides the maya, cholulan refugees settled there. atlantean relics from two periods might be found. the earliest is associated with the stone balls of costa rica.

   your description was good and detailed, but seeing it, and recording the glyphs, is an important next step. i dont think the cup was for daily use, which makes it more interesting. its amazing that the cup survived intact.

   its fascinating and a mystery, why the earliest people settled to the south. we should specify it as among the first of high culture in central america.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:27 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

Hi,
I'm in northern Nicaragua, and last week when I went to buy some locally made bricks,I bought an item that the owner said was excavated on his property, while he was digging clay for his bricks. The item appears to be a drinking vessel. It has three legs with finger holes and what appear to be thumbrests on two of the legs. The bowl area is approximately eight inches in diameter, and the three legs protrude about an inch from that. There is a gargoyle type head protruding on one side, and a damaged protrusion on the opposite side (much like a frog's nose and eyes. The finish is faded off-white paint or glaze with much crazing. There are what appear to be blue lines inside at the bottom edge that ring the bowl, and numerous different panels? painted all around the inside wall. Most of these are faded and although fairly simple line drawings, are not easy to describe. One, may be a snake with an open mouth at the left, with the body extending to the right and curving upward to what may be a head. then a smaller head and body with outstretched arms sitting in the lap of the snake/man/woman. There are also numerous panels around the outside, some with the blue and what appears to be a dull red.
Is there any safe way to clean this? Can anybody tell me what it was used for? I would think that it was ceremonial, probably too big for blood, so maybe chocolate.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RWC

#11845

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 6:25 am
Subject: Re: Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

aumsparky

do not try to clean it yet. a mistake cannot be undone. the clay may have protected it. lets hope the air wont crumble it. with enough time, even pottery decomposes.

was the site near a river? it may indicate more relics upstream, ruins or tombs.

dick, were you born there, or relocated?

we recently reviewed books by astute travellers to that region, squiers in particular. are there ruins nearby? near what city or village? i dont know the laws on antiquities there. maybe contact a museum curator in managua. there might be info on cleaning and preserving pottery online. probably vegetable dyes were used.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:40 PM

Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

    welcome to the group. you have acquired an interesting item. determining its purpose or use, may take longer. i would recommend making photographs of the cup, the higher the resolution the better. it sounds like there are inscriptions, that should be studied. strange that it was found in clay, without a burial or other objects. perhaps an ancient traveller lost it, or waves carried it there.

    northern nicaragua is near several high cultures of ancients, which may have overlapped. the face and extent of land in that region may have changed much over recent ages.

    besides the maya, cholulan refugees settled there. atlantean relics from two periods might be found. the earliest is associated with the stone balls of costa rica.

   your description was good and detailed, but seeing it, and recording the glyphs, is an important next step. i dont think the cup was for daily use, which makes it more interesting. its amazing that the cup survived intact.

   its fascinating and a mystery, why the earliest people settled to the south. we should specify it as among the first of high culture in central america.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:27 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

Hi,
I'm in northern Nicaragua, and last week when I went to buy some locally made bricks,I bought an item that the owner said was excavated on his property, while he was digging clay for his bricks. The item appears to be a drinking vessel. It has three legs with finger holes and what appear to be thumbrests on two of the legs. The bowl area is approximately eight inches in diameter, and the three legs protrude about an inch from that. There is a gargoyle type head protruding on one side, and a damaged protrusion on the opposite side (much like a frog's nose and eyes. The finish is faded off-white paint or glaze with much crazing. There are what appear to be blue lines inside at the bottom edge that ring the bowl, and numerous different panels? painted all around the inside wall. Most of these are faded and although fairly simple line drawings, are not easy to describe. One, may be a snake with an open mouth at the left, with the body extending to the right and curving upward to what may be a head. then a smaller head and body with outstretched arms sitting in the lap of the snake/man/woman. There are also numerous panels around the outside, some with the blue and what appears to be a dull red.
Is there any safe way to clean this? Can anybody tell me what it was used for? I would think that it was ceremonial, probably too big for blood, so maybe chocolate.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RWC

#11846

From: Dick Cobbs <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 5:39 am
Subject: Pictures

dickcobbs1

Hi,

Pictures attached.

RWC

#11847

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Thu Feb 2, 2012 11:27 am
Subject: Re: Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

aumsparky

hi dick, all

these pics may be too high of resolution for email. my client stalled my email acct, at 10mb. i did go online email to see them. there is a photo upload on group main at yahoo.

after seeing how it was made, with the prominent sturdy legs, it doesnt seem to be a drinking cup. i didnt see any certain glyphs. it is badly faded.

i dont know how the detail could be enhanced. distilled water might help, wet sometimes brings it out. before chemicals could be tried safely, the dyes and glazing should be identified. then try a sample on a leg.

so far, not enough can be seen well, to even identify the culture.

its nice to have such items in one's cabinet, but more might be gained if the local experts were brought in. if they want it in the museum, they should have you identified as the donor.

on a calm river it may float, but i was thinking a tsunami may have carried it, or a spring freshet washed it from a bank upstream. the experts should look for other relics in the area. the relic has such fine detail intact, that its possible that someone buried it in the clay. it may have been a votive bowl temple offering, or from a person's home altar.

someone else may be able to add comment upon it. at least you know where it was found, so many items ive bought from estates, have unknown provenance. i wonder at what depth in the clay it was found.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 1:25 AM

Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

    do not try to clean it yet. a mistake cannot be undone. the clay may have protected it. lets hope the air wont crumble it. with enough time, even pottery decomposes.

   was the site near a river? it may indicate more relics upstream, ruins or tombs.

   dick, were you born there, or relocated?

   we recently reviewed books by astute travellers to that region, squiers in particular. are there ruins nearby? near what city or village? i dont know the laws on antiquities there. maybe contact a museum curator in managua. there might be info on cleaning and preserving pottery online. probably vegetable dyes were used.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:40 PM

Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

    welcome to the group. you have acquired an interesting item. determining its purpose or use, may take longer. i would recommend making photographs of the cup, the higher the resolution the better. it sounds like there are inscriptions, that should be studied. strange that it was found in clay, without a burial or other objects. perhaps an ancient traveller lost it, or waves carried it there.

    northern nicaragua is near several high cultures of ancients, which may have overlapped. the face and extent of land in that region may have changed much over recent ages.

    besides the maya, cholulan refugees settled there. atlantean relics from two periods might be found. the earliest is associated with the stone balls of costa rica.

   your description was good and detailed, but seeing it, and recording the glyphs, is an important next step. i dont think the cup was for daily use, which makes it more interesting. its amazing that the cup survived intact.

   its fascinating and a mystery, why the earliest people settled to the south. we should specify it as among the first of high culture in central america.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:27 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Mayan/Olmec Drinking Vessel

Hi,
I'm in northern Nicaragua, and last week when I went to buy some locally made bricks,I bought an item that the owner said was excavated on his property, while he was digging clay for his bricks. The item appears to be a drinking vessel. It has three legs with finger holes and what appear to be thumbrests on two of the legs. The bowl area is approximately eight inches in diameter, and the three legs protrude about an inch from that. There is a gargoyle type head protruding on one side, and a damaged protrusion on the opposite side (much like a frog's nose and eyes. The finish is faded off-white paint or glaze with much crazing. There are what appear to be blue lines inside at the bottom edge that ring the bowl, and numerous different panels? painted all around the inside wall. Most of these are faded and although fairly simple line drawings, are not easy to describe. One, may be a snake with an open mouth at the left, with the body extending to the right and curving upward to what may be a head. then a smaller head and body with outstretched arms sitting in the lap of the snake/man/woman. There are also numerous panels around the outside, some with the blue and what appears to be a dull red.
Is there any safe way to clean this? Can anybody tell me what it was used for? I would think that it was ceremonial, probably too big for blood, so maybe chocolate.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
RWC

#11848

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 5:21 am
Subject: Olmec vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
I'm sending more pictures, hoping someone can identify this item.  One is said
to be the Olmec dragon. I think there is a similar representation upside down on
the leg opposite the gargoyle.  The gargoyle could be a transforming shaman, a
monkey, or just a really ugly dude with a monkey hat.
Thanks,
RWC

#11849

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:32 am
Subject: Re: Olmec vessel

aumsparky

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/olmec-dragon.htm

hi dick, all

i admire your work dick. i agree that the relic is olmec. while the olmec dragon is variously represented, the flaming eyebrows points to it being olmec. i wasnt aware that there was an olmec presence in n nicaragua, until now. the bird is also an olmec symbol, often found with the dragon culture.

what i said earlier about a potential site upstream still goes.

we are not a mainstream site, that cling to concensus opinion. there are some among us that hold different opinions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_religion

http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/03/olmec-dragon.html

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:21 AM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Olmec vessel

Hi,
I'm sending more pictures, hoping someone can identify this item. One is said to be the Olmec dragon. I think there is a similar representation upside down on the leg opposite the gargoyle. The gargoyle could be a transforming shaman, a monkey, or just a really ugly dude with a monkey hat.
Thanks,
RWC

#11850

From: "bigalemc2" <sgtti@...>
Date: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: maya in ga?

bigalemc2

Mike -

Good point about Tulum.

One has to think that - whether they planned it or not - they would
quickly have seen that from the top of the pyramids they could see a
long way.  And no society that has enemies could not see the advantage
of having a high perspective.

This strongly suggests that one  of the primary reasons for pyramids was
as a vantage point, a crow's nest on land.  And like in The Lord of The
Rings, using them for signal fires could not be long in coming.  I have
no idea if there is evidence for fires atop pyramids with flat tops.  I
kind of doubt the evidence was there or someone would have mentioned it.
All we hear about is rituals.

But as vantage points, fires weren't necessary, but I won't drop the
idea until I have proven it wrong to my satisfaction.

Having the tops be above the trees not only gives the perspective of
looking down like gods, but it also allows seeing long ways across the
Yucatan, over the trees.  Yet, there is not much to see except trees -
and other pyramids - and perhaps the smoke from fires of anyone camping
anywhere nearby.

As an ancient version of the Pony Express or the telegraph, you couldn't
do any better.  It would even justify building them.

I would not be mentioning this, except I have never heard of any thought
put into this, so I thought I'd put it out there.

If we consider the ancient peoples as practical in the slightest, we
have to consider what WE would do with certain structures that we find.
Yes, the Christian white guys who started archeology decided that the
ancients were all mumbo-jumbo fearing numb nuts.  But we here don't.
So, if we had something taller than the trees, what would we utilize it
for?  Just because the 19th century arkies had no imagination doesn't
mean we can't.  And just because archeology is - amazingly - still stuck
in the thinking of those religious dummies, well, that isn't our doing.

My vote goes to them using them for signalling between complexes.  Once
they were up there, they could NOT have not seen that potential.
SOMEBODY had to have seen the potential.

Steve Garcia

--- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
>
>
> hi david, all
>
>    i reposted the link that was put on ancient-mysteries.  brasstown
bald and blairsville are probably within 30 miles from my home at
franklin, nc.  unfortunately, my legs are no longer up to the rigors
needed to hike up to the site.
>    apparently, some of the maya escaped the general revolt of the
masses, and may have taken boats from tulum.  they may have come inland
on the savanah river.
>    i dont recall the particulars, but some relics from the mound in
franklin may have related to the maya.  this may be how bamboo was
carried into this region.
>    ive travelled much in asia in the last 9 years.  im hoping to
explore the andes and mexico next.
>    i will look for authors other articles.
>
> happy holidays
> mike
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: dcampbell75479
>   To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:43 PM
>   Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: maya in ga?
>
>
>
>   That's a fascinating article, Mike. I ran across it yesterday at
another list. About a year ago I corresponded with Richard Thornton on a
project of mine. He has a whole slew of similar articles on the Examiner
which I suggest you check out.
>
>   --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, aumsparky@ wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > mayan ruins near blairsville, ga
>   >
>   >
http://www.examiner.com/architecture-design-in-national/massive-1-100-ye\
ar-old-maya-site-discovered-georgia-s-mountains
>   >
>   > mike
>   >
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (15)

#11851

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:39 am
Subject: Re: Olmec vessel

aumsparky

an old email got overlooked, i apologize for the tardiness.

ive come to a different chronology for mesoamerica. the olmec, either of the two races that are currently lumped into the olmec, have features that are common to pacifica, the lemurians. that continent sank circa 50,000 bce, said cayce. the people of cholula were driven south by the olmec in remote times. its likely that the olmec were descended from the lemurians. i would guess the olmec arrival between 26,000 bce and 10,000 bce, far earlier than the 3000 bce commonly cited. there may have been two distinct periods of olmec in mexico, the earlier giants with the round heads, and the later elongated skull type. i assume that they were in mexico for thousands of years, and overlapped with the early atlanteans.

dick's relic could be up to 20,000 years old, in my opinion. it may have taken millennias for the clay to cover the cup, if it were by spring freshets.

the olmec may have had a script. some claim to have translated it, but i have my doubts.

please look for potters' marks on the bowl, often 3-5 characters.

im having email trouble, so there are delays.

mike

#11852

From: Luis Andrade <luis.sparhawk@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 6:20 pm
Subject: Re: Olmec vessel

ci1222950

Hi Dick,

Thank you for sharing those pictures. Do you have any more of the "Olmec dragon" from different angles? It reminds me of some of the earlier, pre-Xia, Chinese cultures (Liangzhu or Longshang, for example) and their jade objects. Interested also in any rubbings of the relief on that clay vase.

Regards,

Luis

On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dick <dickcobbs1@...> wrote:

Hi,
I'm sending more pictures, hoping someone can identify this item. One is said to be the Olmec dragon. I think there is a similar representation upside down on the leg opposite the gargoyle. The gargoyle could be a transforming shaman, a monkey, or just a really ugly dude with a monkey hat.
Thanks,
RWC

#11853

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 7:36 pm
Subject: Vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
Will send additional pictures of dragon.  If you magnify the uploaded pictures,
you should be able to make out some of the detail.  Actually I am able to see
more in the pictures than on he object itself.
It appears that the interior panels tell a story, in that there is a repetition
of the seated reclining figure with the figure in its lap changing.  I am
starting to think it is a description of the beginning of their religion, or the
world, or something along those lines.  My friend, Luis, who was with me when I
got it thinks it is the Olmec Kama Sutra!!!!!!!
Later,
RWC

#11854

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Sat Feb 4, 2012 10:28 pm
Subject: Olmec vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
I didn't mention that the dragon's snout is obviously broken and also the there
are rattles in the two intact legs.
RWC
p.s. I notice that tipping my screen brings out different details in the
pictures.

#11855

From: "dcampbell75479" <fred-dobbs@...>
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 2:44 pm
Subject: Re: Olmec vessel

dcampbell75479

Hi, Mike,
Have you added the Dragon Vessel to the files or photos yet? I just looked
quickly and didn't see them. What caught my attention was Dick's statement that
the dragon snout was obviously broken. You probably recall my photos of the
artifact from Texas which paleontologists said was merely a tylosaurus fossil
snout but which the original discoverer back in the '50's was certain was a
dragon type artifact of Mesoamerican origins. Also, years ago a correspondent
sent me photos of a dragon-like pictograph near Hueco Tanks which obviously had
Mesoamerican influence. It seems increasingly evident that there was a greater
Mesoamerican influence in the Southwest than previously acknowledged publicly.
(I have found discussions of this as far back as the '20's and '30's, though.)

Anyway, could you point me to the photo if you have it in the albums or photos,
so that I can make a visual comparison? Thanks.

Yours truly,
David Campbell

--- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
>
>
> hi dick, all
>
>    i admire your work dick.  i agree that the relic is olmec.  while the olmec
dragon is variously represented, the flaming eyebrows points to it being olmec. 
i wasnt aware that there was an olmec presence in n nicaragua, until now.  the
bird is also an olmec symbol, often found with the dragon culture.
>    what i said earlier about a potential site upstream still goes.
>    we are not a mainstream site, that cling to concensus opinion.  there are
some among us that hold different opinions.
>
> http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/olmec-dragon.htm
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_religion
>
> http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/03/olmec-dragon.html
>
> http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/03/olmec-dragon.html
>
> mike
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Dick
>   To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:21 AM
>   Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Olmec vessel
>
>
>
>   Hi,
>   I'm sending more pictures, hoping someone can identify this item. One is
said to be the Olmec dragon. I think there is a similar representation upside
down on the leg opposite the gargoyle. The gargoyle could be a transforming
shaman, a monkey, or just a really ugly dude with a monkey hat.
>   Thanks,
>   RWC
>

#11856

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 6:15 pm
Subject: Research

dickcobbs1

Hi,
I'll probably raise some hackles with this post, but here goes!  In researching
my vessel I'm finding a great deal of speculation/assumption.  I even find
myself doing it.  When trying to sketch some of the glyph on the vessel, it's
easy to mistake what is probably dirt for a line, or circle, or some other thing
that really isn't there.
That said, I looked at some of the information on the Cascajal tablet.
It is assumed that the representations are a system of symbols that compose a
written language.

What if it is simply the local stone and leather worker's bill of goods.  This
list of objects that he can make for trade being leather pouches of various
designs, and knives, rollers, picks, mashers, etc.

As I said, this should raise some controversy.

Sincerely,
RWC

#11857

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 8:09 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Olmec vessel

aumsparky

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/photos/album/1077709813/pic/list

hi david, all

dick uploaded the pics here :

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: dcampbell75479

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 9:44 AM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Olmec vessel

Hi, Mike,
Have you added the Dragon Vessel to the files or photos yet? I just looked quickly and didn't see them. What caught my attention was Dick's statement that the dragon snout was obviously broken. You probably recall my photos of the artifact from Texas which paleontologists said was merely a tylosaurus fossil snout but which the original discoverer back in the '50's was certain was a dragon type artifact of Mesoamerican origins. Also, years ago a correspondent sent me photos of a dragon-like pictograph near Hueco Tanks which obviously had Mesoamerican influence. It seems increasingly evident that there was a greater Mesoamerican influence in the Southwest than previously acknowledged publicly. (I have found discussions of this as far back as the '20's and '30's, though.)

Anyway, could you point me to the photo if you have it in the albums or photos, so that I can make a visual comparison? Thanks.

Yours truly,
David Campbell

--- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
>
>
> hi dick, all
>
> i admire your work dick. i agree that the relic is olmec. while the olmec dragon is variously represented, the flaming eyebrows points to it being olmec. i wasnt aware that there was an olmec presence in n nicaragua, until now. the bird is also an olmec symbol, often found with the dragon culture.
> what i said earlier about a potential site upstream still goes.
> we are not a mainstream site, that cling to concensus opinion. there are some among us that hold different opinions.
>
> http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/olmec-dragon.htm
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec_religion
>
> http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/03/olmec-dragon.html
>
> http://brazilweirdnews.blogspot.com/2011/03/olmec-dragon.html
>
> mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dick
> To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 12:21 AM
> Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Olmec vessel
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I'm sending more pictures, hoping someone can identify this item. One is said to be the Olmec dragon. I think there is a similar representation upside down on the leg opposite the gargoyle. The gargoyle could be a transforming shaman, a monkey, or just a really ugly dude with a monkey hat.
> Thanks,
> RWC
>

#11858

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 10:16 pm
Subject: Re: Research

aumsparky

concerning the olmec, almost everything is speculation. if you examine facts, you may find that they are not sufficiently supported. this is especially true of the dates assigned. if you have facts to present, we welcome them. most of us are aware of what is written by the 'experts'.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 1:15 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Research

Hi,
I'll probably raise some hackles with this post, but here goes! In researching my vessel I'm finding a great deal of speculation/assumption. I even find myself doing it. When trying to sketch some of the glyph on the vessel, it's easy to mistake what is probably dirt for a line, or circle, or some other thing that really isn't there.
That said, I looked at some of the information on the Cascajal tablet.
It is assumed that the representations are a system of symbols that compose a written language.

What if it is simply the local stone and leather worker's bill of goods. This list of objects that he can make for trade being leather pouches of various designs, and knives, rollers, picks, mashers, etc.

As I said, this should raise some controversy.

Sincerely,
RWC

#11859

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sun Feb 5, 2012 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Research

aumsparky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec

some might compare the human figure, and the animals represented at toltec sites, and conclude your relic is toltec. only the flaming eyebrows suggest it to be olmec. the olmec dragon on the bowl could be a toltec jaguar.

examine the racial features of these vastly different people, that are all classified as olmec. they are dated between 1600 bce and 400 bce. i have difficulty accepting any of this as fact, but each to their own opinion. there are other figurines classified as olmec, that depict extremely elongated skulls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmec

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: aumsparky@...

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:16 PM

Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Research

concerning the olmec, almost everything is speculation. if you examine facts, you may find that they are not sufficiently supported. this is especially true of the dates assigned. if you have facts to present, we welcome them. most of us are aware of what is written by the 'experts'.

mike

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick

To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 1:15 PM

Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Research

Hi,
I'll probably raise some hackles with this post, but here goes! In researching my vessel I'm finding a great deal of speculation/assumption. I even find myself doing it. When trying to sketch some of the glyph on the vessel, it's easy to mistake what is probably dirt for a line, or circle, or some other thing that really isn't there.
That said, I looked at some of the information on the Cascajal tablet.
It is assumed that the representations are a system of symbols that compose a written language.

What if it is simply the local stone and leather worker's bill of goods. This list of objects that he can make for trade being leather pouches of various designs, and knives, rollers, picks, mashers, etc.

As I said, this should raise some controversy.

Sincerely,
RWC

#11860

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 6:41 am
Subject: long-count

aumsparky

among olmec monuments and relics, it was noted that archaic hieroglyphs were in use, and dates were given by the familiar mayan bar and dot method. apparently, the mayans adopted much from the olmec, or an earlier culture. it is among the olmec relics that we should look for an earlier beginning of the long count. this would be in keeping with the hindu classification of time in about 5000 year yugas.

its unclear why they chose 5,126 year periods, instead of the near 2000 year duration of a zodiacal sign in precession.

perhaps both the olmec and the mayan cultures, adopted a script and numeral system already in place. this was also standard practice by the many foreign rulers of egypt.

this makes it hopeful that our scholars may learn more about the olmec people. they will probably learn that the olmec arrived from the pacific region, and not africa.

prospective members should read the group guidelines and description before joining. these groups are not professional journals. conjecture, speculation, and alternative theories are welcome, and encouraged.

mike

host

#11861

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 10:07 pm
Subject: Vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
Three more pics and some observations.  Most of the glyphs appear to be a seated
figure with legs extended.  There are various things either in the figure"s lap
or emerging.
Pic 010 shows the basic scene upside down at the left of the head and right side
up at the right of the head.
Pics 021 and 025 show some of the faded detail.
Some things that may or may not be there:
Pic 028 three whiskers just behind the mouth line and below the eye.
Pic 010 a claw with three lines.

#11862

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Wed Feb 8, 2012 12:25 am
Subject: Olmec vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi,
So far, the only "distant" similarity that I have seen to the major glyph, is
the seated ruler of the La Vente monument 19 (taube 1995 fig. 6a)
RWC

#11863

From: "Dick" <dickcobbs1@...>
Date: Thu Feb 9, 2012 6:14 pm
Subject: Vessel

dickcobbs1

Hi
I'm posting my crude sketches.
RWC

#11864

From: <aumsparky@...>
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:07 pm
Subject: great plains

aumsparky

the absence of trees on the great plains of north america has been a mystery since the first colonists arrived. not only were the trees missing, but the lands of texas, oklahoma, kansas, nebraska, and the dakotas, seemed to be stripped of top soil. oddly, there were few rivers flowing across the terrain.

my conclusion of a recent glancing impact by a huge meteorite in the caribbean sea, would explain so many mysteries, including the missing trees and soil from the great plains, the red clay of tx and ok, the missing soil of az, the grand canyon, the incredible flood erosion of utah, the bad lands, and the megafauna deposits of alaska. the huge tsunami that results from such an impact, seems the most plausible cause for all of these events. the object that made a crater hundreds of miles wide, would have generated a tsunami several miles high, with enough force to sweep away everything in its path for thousands of miles.

its hoped that the experts will take notice of this report, and investigate with field studies to determine the truth of it.

mike white