REBT-CBT-FORUM : Messages : 12842-12871 of 13630

Gunars, I typed a big response to one of your recent posts that I had overlooked
about this and other things and then had a computer issue and I lost the
message. So this is actually just a teaser.

You will just have to wait for me to finish it! :) Then we will chat more. By
the way when are you going to respond to my email.

Andrew

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)

#12870

From: Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...>
Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:25 am
Subject: Re: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/11

iamrex2000

Offline

Thu 12 Nov 09, 11:54 am

Look, it takes courage to be happy in a distorted, unhappy world. Some people are simply not up to the challenge. Are you?

Many very credible people with impeccable pedigrees and fine scientific knowledge prefer, nonetheless, to embrace superstition . . . for reasons which are entirely obvious, but still intellectually dishonest. In addition to everything Gunars said about biblical accuracy, historically, there was no ethic compelling scribes to translate accurately. Even before digital, most of us assume a "copy" to mean an "exact copy." As I am sure you already know, that simply was not the case historically. Scribes were at great liberty to "improve" whatever it was they were copying. And there is no way to track all of the omissions, errors, additions and "corrections" that occurred over various generations of texts.

Maybe it will help to remember that we are a very young species, just a pimple on the ass of anthropological time; a work still very much in progress. Have perspective and keep your expectations reasonable and rational against the backdrop of human history and anthropological time.

I was watching an old Andy Hardy movie last night on Turner Classic Movies. Andy is writing a school play, and maniacally running around the house asking questions like "Do they have volcanos in Tahiti?" No one knows. The Hardy's are comfortably middle class, so there was a set of encyclopedias in Judge Hardy's den where Andy could research volcanoes. If they didn't own an encyclopedia, which most people did not in those days, 1937, the only alternative would have been to wait until the next day and a trip to the library!!! Can you image that, going to the library to find a little factoid about whether there are volcanoes in Tahiti! My Gawd. And that was just 1937 when Gunars was graduating from University!

Absolutely amazing! Anyway, I guess I digress from my digression! We are a very, very young species, and any little bit of sanity and rationality we have acquired in the past 10,000 years should be considered more analogous to the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk than to the Space Shuttle!

Relax already, lah! None of this is your fault, nor your responsibility to set right. Your "misdirection" into religion will serve you well someday. Honest Injun! I promise!

Aloha,

Rex

> Gunars, first your question then see below for homework. I have

> studied the interpretation, translation, and history of the bible.

> I've also studied theology and philosophy. My interest was in

> Christian origins and the Jewish background of the New Testament. I

> can fucking read the dead sea scrolls in Hebrew.

> Before I gave up on the faith I might have considered a bible

> college but even then I was fairly liberal and would have had

> trouble teaching at an Evangelical school. I would not have taught

> at Pat Roberts University. I wanted to get a position at a

> University.

> I have no data on how many tenured professors there are that can do

> that kind of work. I'm not sure where to even collect it. Nor am I

> sure how many applicants there are per position. If I had solid

> data on this sort of thing I would probably sleep easier on my

> pragmatic decision. Based upon word of mouth, It's hard to land a

> position.

> Still, I found that shit cool. I felt like I was doing something

> important. Now I just loath myself for it. Dammit I was good at it

> too. I feel like such a hack now. Washed up trying to survive in

> the world of business that I don't much care about. I find the

> computing stuff slightly interesting but I'm not as good at it. I

> knew my stuff and still do in biblical studies.

> Now onto priorities,

> 1.Today, I enjoyed downloading more lectures to my ipod. I

> appreciated my wife dropping me off at class.

> 2. Since I have given up on an externally created meaning of life,

> I created some meaning by sending an email to a professor whose

> course I listened to recently.

> 3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats

> project, meditated.

> 4. What I found difficult: Self hate. Feeling like a failure and a

> hack. Feeling like my life is pretty much over.

> 5. A current life goal of mine is to reduce my self hatred. I

> pursued this goal today by doing a Buddhist forgiveness meditation.

> 6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study

> Java, go to FreeThought and debate two Objectivists.

> Andrew

> --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D."

> <neidersg@...> wrote:

>> Andrew,

>> An honest question. I have seen on National Public Television

>> some very in depth studies on the bible, its evolution, how

>> various Papal councils screwed around with what books to include

>> in our current new testament, and things how greek culture

>> superimposed on the teachings of Christ. There does appear to be

>> some Universities that study the real history of bible, not the

>> interpretation of bible. Were you involved in that part? How many

>> tenured professors are there in United States who can do that?

>> How many applicants for even a lowly instructor's job at a

>> university who does that? Or were you going to teach at a

>> Evangelist University as Pat Roberts university. I really don't

>> get what kind of bible studies would you have gone into? Or were

>> you going to throw away King James version of the bible and

>> translate it from either Hebrew or Greek?

>> I somehow compare people with goals to gain positions for which

>> there is intense competition with those of fledgling actresses

>> and actors in Hollywood and New York, where in order to eat they

>> have to serve tables or become prostitutes—or porn start,

>> dancers, etc. How are you at those tasks? Maybe doing computer

>> programming while studying "real history of bible" as

>> "interpretation of bible by various evangelical churches to keep

>> themselves in power, would not be so bad if you do not end up as

>> "Midnight cowboy"

>> When Richard Gere was an American Gigolo, I would not have minded

>> me becoming one—only needed a couple hundred thousand dollars to

>> polish my Hoh Deutcsh, East Coast old money English, Castllian

>> Spanish, the Russian of the literary speech, etc.etc. and get

>> somebody to dress me up and introduce me to the right people. But

>> meanwhile I was doing electrica/electronic/computer engineering

>> until I really thought things through and came up with a totlly

>> new important, original, concept of approaching stuttering

>> therapy from. I defined the task done when I got everything

>> thought through.

>> "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't

>> have pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"

>> Gunars

>> _____

>> From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-

>> FORUM@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Tuesday,

>> November 10, 2009 7:03 PM To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com

>> Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

>> Rex, thanks for your suggestions. I found the story helpful. Nice

>> to know that other people besides me face crazy confusing stuff

>> sometimes. Not moving to China but may end up moving to another

>> state. May also go broke remains to be seen.

>> 1.Today, I enjoyed crepes and Earl Grey tea for lunch. I am also

>> appreciating all the assistance Rex, Gunars, and Will have given

>> me as I work through things.

>> 2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I

>> created some meaning by listening to more epistemology while

>> cleaning up the house.

>> 3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on

>> Stats project, did exercises, meditated.

>> 4. What I found difficult: Intense self hate for not turning back

>> to graduate study in biblical studies now that I'm feeling better

>> physically. Intense self hate for failing at my most important

>> goal of becoming a professor. Also Car breaking down and $600

>> bill.

>> 5. A current life goal of mine is to learn to play more songs

>> from memory. Did so by practicing guitar a half hour.

>> 6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study

>> Java, do yoga stretches and apply to a few jobs.

#12869

From: "Andrew" <philosopher1981@...>
Date: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:48 am
Subject: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/11

philosopher1981

Offline

Gunars, first your question then see below for homework. I have studied the
interpretation, translation, and history of the bible. I've also studied
theology and philosophy. My interest was in Christian origins and the Jewish
background of the New Testament. I can fucking read the dead sea scrolls in
Hebrew.

Before I gave up on the faith I might have considered a bible college but even
then I was fairly liberal and would have had trouble teaching at an Evangelical
school.  I would not have taught at Pat Roberts University. I wanted to get a
position at a University.

I have no data on how many tenured professors there are that can do that kind of
work. I'm not sure where to even collect it. Nor am I sure how many applicants
there are per position. If I had solid data on this sort of thing I would
probably sleep easier on my pragmatic decision. Based upon word of mouth, It's
hard to land a position.

Still, I found that shit cool. I felt like I was doing something important. Now
I just loath myself for it. Dammit I was good at it too. I feel like such a hack
now. Washed up trying to survive in the world of business that I don't much care
about. I find the computing stuff slightly interesting but I'm not as good at
it. I knew my stuff and still do in biblical studies.

Now onto priorities,

1.Today, I enjoyed downloading more lectures to my ipod. I appreciated my wife
dropping me off at class.

2. Since I have given up on an externally created meaning of life, I
created some meaning by sending an email to a professor whose course I listened
to recently.

3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats project,
meditated.

4. What I found difficult: Self hate. Feeling like a failure and a hack. Feeling
like my life is pretty much over.

5. A current life goal of mine is to reduce my self hatred. I pursued this goal
today by doing a Buddhist forgiveness meditation.

6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study Java, go to
FreeThought and debate two Objectivists.

Andrew

--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
> An honest question. I have seen on National Public Television some very in
> depth studies on the bible, its evolution, how various Papal councils
> screwed around with what books to include in our current new testament, and
> things how greek culture superimposed on the teachings of Christ. There does
> appear to be some Universities that study the real history of bible, not the
> interpretation of bible. Were you involved in that part? How many tenured
> professors are there in United States who can do that? How many applicants
> for even a lowly instructor's job at a university who does that? Or were you
> going to teach at a Evangelist University as Pat Roberts university. I
> really don't get what kind of bible studies would you have gone into? Or
> were you going to throw away King James version of the bible and translate
> it from either Hebrew or Greek?
>
>
>
> I somehow compare people with goals to gain positions for which there is
> intense competition with those of fledgling actresses and actors in
> Hollywood and New York, where in order to eat they have to serve tables or
> become prostitutes�or porn start, dancers, etc. How are you at those tasks?
> Maybe doing computer programming while studying "real history of bible" as
> "interpretation of bible by various evangelical churches to keep themselves
> in power, would not be so bad if you do not end up as "Midnight cowboy"
>
>
>
> When Richard Gere was an American Gigolo, I would not have minded me
> becoming one�only needed a couple hundred thousand dollars to polish my Hoh
> Deutcsh, East Coast old money English, Castllian Spanish, the Russian of the
> literary speech, etc.etc. and get somebody to dress me up and introduce me
> to the right people. But meanwhile I was doing electrica/electronic/computer
> engineering until I really thought things through and came up with a totlly
> new important, original, concept of approaching stuttering therapy from. I
> defined the task done when I got everything thought through.
>
>
> "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
>
>         Gunars
>
>   _____
>
> From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Andrew
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:03 PM
> To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10
>
>
>
>
>
> Rex, thanks for your suggestions. I found the story helpful. Nice to know
> that other people besides me face crazy confusing stuff sometimes. Not
> moving to China but may end up moving to another state. May also go broke
> remains to be seen.
>
> 1.Today, I enjoyed crepes and Earl Grey tea for lunch. I am also
> appreciating all the assistance Rex, Gunars, and Will have given me as I
> work through things.
>
> 2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I
> created some meaning by listening to more epistemology while cleaning up the
> house.
>
> 3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats project,
> did exercises, meditated.
>
> 4. What I found difficult: Intense self hate for not turning back to
> graduate study in biblical studies now that I'm feeling better physically.
> Intense self hate for failing at my most important goal of becoming a
> professor. Also Car breaking down and $600 bill.
>
> 5. A current life goal of mine is to learn to play more songs from memory.
> Did so by practicing guitar a half hour.
>
> 6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study Java, do yoga
> stretches and apply to a few jobs.
>

#12868

From: "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:44 pm
Subject: RE: Re: How to keep energizing in a stressful job situation

neidersgun

Offline

Y’all,

I really liked Rex’s answer. However, I would like to add additional material that is helping me. On November 9^th, I believe, Rex wrote the following about what he called rapid relief technique:

“You DON'T accept your situation. That is putting the cart before the horse, and the ability to accept your situation may never happen. You accept the fact that your situation exists. At first, that may seem to be a word game, but it's not, it's pivitol. Your start by accepting your thoughts and feellings aobut your situation.

I accept the fact that I don't really know that I can accept my situation because it seems too horrible to deal with.

. . . And I choose to move toward my vision of learning to "play the hand I am dealt" as graciously as possible.

That second step may not work for you, or may not pertain, or may not reflect what you really want. You have to work it until if feels honest and on point. The second part is often the hardest for me becuse sometimes I feel clueless about what I want to move toward. That is important information as well, because when I cannot figure out how to state my vision, it means I am enjoying wallowing in the problem and the feellings, and not ready to move on.

If that's the case,

"I accept the fact that I don't feel ready to move on . . .

. . . and I choose to move toward my vision of processing this experience.'

Although, unlike some of the other guys here, I am not a fan of affirmations and repettion in applying REBT. This rapid relief tecnique is an exception. And BTW, "rapid relief" is just the title the publisher suggested I think. Sometimes it takes a long time and is not so rapid. And here repettition is the key. Mindful repettition, hopefully, but repeat it as often as the problem or emotion or disturbance comes to mind.”

I am experiencing institutional politics with my progress toward getting my degree and a shit load of stuff to do. And, of course, no guarantees.

I accept the fact that I don't really know what the frick I am doing (being a Forever Fricked-Up Fallible Human Being): how to win this game of finishing my degree and at times irrationally J stressing out about it—so be it…

. . . And I choose to move toward my vision of putting one foot in front of another, keep on getting tasks done and win, tie, or lose, just say frick-it, I am doing the best I can.

"Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"

Gunars

From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rex Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:29 AM
To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: How to keep energizing in a stressful job situation

Wed 11 Nov 09, 11:48 pm

Hi there,

Glad you are getting some relief by doing your ABC's. Keep it up.

This stuff is really complicated. It doesn't lend itself very well to e-mail. Situations become stressors when we have (or believe we have) more to do than we can possibly get done is a given time frame. Stress intensifies when the consequences of not performing or not producing are great (or we believe they are great). Demanding, nagging, threatening bosses, coworkers, or clients make it worse. Stress becomes chronic when a situation goes on for a very long time without relief. We can have "burn out" when it is endless (or we believe there is no end in sight). Our psychological, emotional and/or physical health may be at risk in such a situation when we experience one wave of stress, and before we have time to recover from it, we are hit with another wave. If this happens repeatedly, it can be very serious.

Add to this the fact that people are not machines. People have cycles; short, medium and long cycles. It is an error to believe that you will always be able to perform optimally, or that your work-style or capacity for work will remain constant. Handy examples would be fashion models, athletes and dancers; all demanding, high-performance professions which have definite cycles.

Having said all of that, I'll give you 20 cents and a ham sandwich if you can show me the place where "deep inside [you] there is some damage has stared happening." That may be a distinct feeling and belief you are nursing, but it is not a healthy one, and is simply no evidence to support such poppycock!

First of all, begin working on your time management and stress reduction. Start with "How To Get Control of Your Time and Your Life" and "Getting Things Done." The first is a perennial and a classic, and being true to it's purpose, it is short, practical and to the point. "Getting Things Done" is the flavor of the month, has almost a cult following by some, and secondary industry of products and services supporting it. Both are essential, especially "GTD" in surviving in a multi-tasking world.

For stress management proper, I highly recommend yoga. It is everywhere now, and regarded as "miles too hip" by many, so you may get to be a little bit hip while your are dong good things for yourself.

As for your thinking:

I am not a 100% REBEtized guy... :))

None of us are! Except maybe Albert Ellis, and he's dead! :o{

"I am now sick of everything"

Everything??? Really??? Highly unlikely that you sick of everything. Do you still enjoy masturbation? Well, there you go! The point being that you are using a massive over-generalization to fuel your negative mood and exaggerate your inertia. Try to be more specific about what the real and important problems are, exactly, and then get to work on them.

"...am concerned that I may break and will get burned out."

As we discussed earlier, you may indeed get "burned out" if you do not improve your time management and stress management skills. So, you had better take your situation seriously and do what you can to improve things internally and externally. You had also probably better prepare yourself to accept the possibility (possibility, not necessarily probability) that you may have to change jobs and/or careers for the sake of your physical and emotional health at some point.

But do you really believe you will "break"??? What the hell does that mean? Have you ever "broken" before? Do you know anyone who has broken? Are you going to get a gun and "go postal"? Does "break" actually have any meaning in this context, or are you just using it to scare yourself and inflame an already difficult situation?

how to keep the energy level at optimum level

Not everyone is Albert Ellis, you know! As we discussed earlier people have cycles, and it may not be realistic or rational to expect that you can produce optimal energy levels like turning on a tap.

Well, that's a start.

Good luck!

Aloha,

Rex

> Hello All,

> Can any one pls share his/her thoughts on this challange?

> Warm regards...

> --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "oakvinayak"

> <oakvinayak@...> wrote:

>> Hello All,

>> I am right now going thro stressful situation in my job. And this

>> situation would last for much a long period. So since I am not a

>> 100% REBEtized guy... :)) so get into a "I am now sick of

>> everything" situation. Some how I come out of this frustration by

>> using ABC technique. But since this is becoming daily matter I am

>> getting a feeling that somewhere deep inside me, there is some

>> damage has stared happening in my capacity to tackle the

>> stressful situation and am concerned that I may break and will

>> get burned out.

>> So how to keep the energy level at optimum level in a pro-longed

>> stressfull situation so that to avoid the burnout situation.

>> Warm regards,

#12867

From: Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:29 pm
Subject: Re: Re: How to keep energizing in a stressful job situation

iamrex2000

Offline

Wed 11 Nov 09, 11:48 pm

Hi there,

Glad you are getting some relief by doing your ABC's. Keep it up.

As for your thinking:

I am not a 100% REBEtized guy... :))

None of us are! Except maybe Albert Ellis, and he's dead! :o{

"I am now sick of everything"

"...am concerned that I may break and will get burned out."

how to keep the energy level at optimum level

Not everyone is Albert Ellis, you know! As we discussed earlier people have cycles, and it may not be realistic or rational to expect that you can produce optimal energy levels like turning on a tap.

Well, that's a start.

Good luck!

Aloha,

Rex

> Hello All,

> Can any one pls share his/her thoughts on this challange?

> Warm regards...

> --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "oakvinayak"

> <oakvinayak@...> wrote:

>> Hello All,

>> I am right now going thro stressful situation in my job. And this

>> situation would last for much a long period. So since I am not a

>> 100% REBEtized guy... :)) so get into a "I am now sick of

>> everything" situation. Some how I come out of this frustration by

>> using ABC technique. But since this is becoming daily matter I am

>> getting a feeling that somewhere deep inside me, there is some

>> damage has stared happening in my capacity to tackle the

>> stressful situation and am concerned that I may break and will

>> get burned out.

>> So how to keep the energy level at optimum level in a pro-longed

>> stressfull situation so that to avoid the burnout situation.

>> Warm regards,

#12866

From: Steve <epictetus123@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:07 pm
Subject: Re: Dating #2/Rex

listsforme

Offline

Email is not a reliable form of communication either technically or with the customs associated with handling email.

Most people do not feel the need to monitor their email accounts or return their email messages in the same way they do with their phone messages.

You can't really assume anything from an unanswered email.

#12865

From: "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:59 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

neidersgun

Offline

Andrew,

I read The Bible cover to cover at the age of 13 even before I knew what Yale and Harvard scholars hypothesize from the scientific studies of for example, word frequencies, writing styles, papal council records, lost/discarded books of New Testament etc. and concluded that Christianity and Judaism (and by induction Muslim religion) is based on very flimsy evidence. I became an atheist on the spot. Epistemologically it just did not hold up. So I turned into an atheist. However, if you were my client, which you are not, I would not discuss the following with you. I would not have time to argue about the existence of non-existent gods, but would adapt my therapy based Hank Robb’s pamphlet that can be from Albert Ellis institute about how to get better with the help of Christian bible and Nielsen’s, Johnson, and Ellis book Counseling and Psychotherapy with Religious Persons: A Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy Approach. �

An honest question to a friend—which I think we have become in the REBT-CBT-FORUM: What is your fascination with graduate study in biblical studies? Do you think it is a divine book? Are you interested in unearthing more about the diverse authors of the bible? Are you going to make a list of all the other Gospel’s that were tossed out by the various popes and Papal Councils? Or are you just translating freak from Hebrew and Greek to modern English. I believe that King James version is about as good as it gets. There was at least one modern version, but I have not seen it succeed.

What major universities have “graduate studies in biblical study”? So you got “A’s” in it. Gave you a lot of positive feedback. Does it have more meaning than being good at tiddly-winks: Not many jobs in it. And of no fricken intellectual value. If I were you I would be happy to have forsaken the god forsaken topic and move on to something in life that at least can earn you a living.

There was a golden era in philosophy: Karl Popper, et al. They really thought about thinking and epistemology. I guess I believe in logical positivism. On the other hand Heidegger, in my opinion with his philosophical foundations for post-modernism was just a bullshitter. I think that, as the current discussion and books argue that his Nazi past has soiled his thinking may also well be true. But at least we can intelligently talk about the topic. To me the opinions of Nietzsche and novels of Camus are also worth reading. Once. But there are many people who are interested in basics and history of philosophy, and if you have a mind for playing mind games, you have a probability of getting a low paid job (really low paid job) as part time instructor and devote your time to it. Just like some people play bridge or chess.

In a nutshell unless your church wants to pick and choose passages from bible to fight against abortion rights, universal health care, start wars against other religions and they a priori promise you a job after you are done with graduate studies in the Christian bible (you will never surpass the Talmudian scholars because they start at an early age), I would just bag that shit. So cares if you are good at tiddly-winks. J

By the way, what school did you attend to study bible? Did you research how many of their graduates have jobs? One of my close acquaintances—I can’t call him a friend because I cannot talk to him honestly, he would freak out—when to Theology Department in University of Latvia (Lutheran dominated department) in order to become an ordained minister. Is that what you want to be?

Andrew, answer only if you want to. It will not change our relationship. In this one area, this area of religion, I consider you to be as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. J But we can still be friends and correspond about other things.

On the other hand when I read Ellis and Harper’s first edition of The guide to rational living in 1966, I was enthralled. Since then I have read all the books by Albert Ellis. Not that I agree with him on everything he wrote, but I could take real knowledge away from his books. He still makes sense to me, unlike the bible where you can pick and chose different passages and interpret them in any way you choose. That is why we have had so many Christian denominations and wars between the various factions, like the vicious one in Northern Ireland where brother against brother were murdering each other in the name of a non-existent god.

Now we have another war of Muslims against Christians. And political fight inside of United States where the Christian Right is against those of us who believe in Christ’s philosophy, “Love their neighbor as thyself” and giving at least children some health insurance so they would not die or be crippled unnecessarily.

But, Andrew, your good has given to you, you think, a freedom to make your choices. If you really want to feel miserable about not becoming a scholar of a useless book, go ahead. Free will, as a philosophical concept, is still very slippery. Can we really have free will, if our genetic make-up provides tendency toward how we feel, think, act and perceive and our experiences “express our genes”—encourage or discourage us to act, feel, and think as we are genetically predisposed to. And then there is classical and instrumental conditioning…

"Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"

Gunars

From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:03 PM
To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

Rex, thanks for your suggestions. I found the story helpful. Nice to know that other people besides me face crazy confusing stuff sometimes. Not moving to China but may end up moving to another state. May also go broke remains to be seen.

1.Today, I enjoyed crepes and Earl Grey tea for lunch. I am also appreciating all the assistance Rex, Gunars, and Will have given me as I work through things.

2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I
created some meaning by listening to more epistemology while cleaning up the house.

3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats project, did exercises, meditated.

4. What I found difficult: Intense self hate for not turning back to graduate study in biblical studies now that I'm feeling better physically. Intense self hate for failing at my most important goal of becoming a professor. Also Car breaking down and $600 bill.

5. A current life goal of mine is to learn to play more songs from memory. Did so by practicing guitar a half hour.

6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study Java, do yoga stretches and apply to a few jobs.

#12864

From: "oakvinayak" <oakvinayak@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:32 pm
Subject: Re: How to keep energizing in a stressful job situation

oakvinayak

Offline

Hello All,
Can any one pls share his/her thoughts on this challange?

Warm regards...

--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "oakvinayak" <oakvinayak@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I am right now going thro stressful situation in my job. And this situation
would last for much a long period. So since I am not a 100% REBEtized guy... :))
so get into a "I am now sick of everything" situation. Some how I come out of
this frustration by using ABC technique. But since this is becoming daily matter
I am getting a feeling that somewhere deep inside me, there is some damage has
stared happening in my capacity to tackle the stressful situation and am
concerned that I may break and will get burned out.
>
> So how to keep the energy level at optimum level in a pro-longed stressfull
situation so that to avoid the burnout situation.
>
> Warm regards,
>

#12863

From: "oakvinayak" <oakvinayak@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:32 pm
Subject: Re: How to keep energizing in a stressful job situation

oakvinayak

Offline

Hello All,
Can any one pls share his/her thoughts on this challange?

Warm regards...

--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "oakvinayak" <oakvinayak@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I am right now going thro stressful situation in my job. And this situation
would last for much a long period. So since I am not a 100% REBEtized guy... :))
so get into a "I am now sick of everything" situation. Some how I come out of
this frustration by using ABC technique. But since this is becoming daily matter
I am getting a feeling that somewhere deep inside me, there is some damage has
stared happening in my capacity to tackle the stressful situation and am
concerned that I may break and will get burned out.
>
> So how to keep the energy level at optimum level in a pro-longed stressfull
situation so that to avoid the burnout situation.
>
> Warm regards,
>

#12862

From: "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:17 am
Subject: RE: Homework Gunars 2009/11/9

neidersgun

Offline

1) What good things (serendipities) happened? – Dissertation done ready to be bound..

2) What did I accomplish? – Got a copy of a printout of the combined .pdf file.. :

3) What did I enjoy? – Granddaughters. Again. They are cuties and very challenging to handle.

4) What did I accept-permitted to happen—as if I could prevent it, eh? J – It will be an effort to build an internship.

5) What is my plan for tomorrow? – Get a blood draw, have the exhaust checked on my car. See of Argosy accepts my printed style of dissertation. The content was accepted.

Priorities: a) Health, b) dissertation, c) get Viesturs to do all the conversions, d) organize desk, a little part of the desk..

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#12861

From: "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:02 am
Subject: RE: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

neidersgun

Offline

Albert Camus, my favorite existentialist, as well as Doestoeyevsky (and Mark Twain, Charles Dickens, all wrote books to earn money).

"Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"

Gunars

From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rex Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:26 PM
To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

Wed 11 Nov 09, 12:14 pm

It has been my experience that when things are going well and I am enjoying life, I do not have so called "existential angst." As I have said before, I believe that much or all existential angst is depression masquerading as philosophy. That is not to say that atheisits/agnositcs do not have to deal with "issues" which are different than the religious have.

The ideas of Camus and those gloomy dudes can be very depressing, if we let them. However, if they were really serious about their gloomy existentialism, and really meant us to take them literally, why bother writing all those damn books in the first place? Writing books is hard work. If life is really meaningless, why bother? Just go the hedonist route, or suicide?

Obviously, life was not so meaningless that it kept them from writing gloomy books, giving lectures and being invited to fancy parties populated by arty, avant-guarde types!

Aloha,

Rex

> What if life was meaningless? Would that make it unenjoyable?

> I can't remember the shrinks name, but in HS I had an intro to

> psych class and one quote I remember was that each life is a blank

> book, we are the authors and we decide on the meaning for *our*

> lives.

> Steve

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:09 PM, diogenes0 <diogenes0@yahoo.com>

> wrote:

>> Hi, I've read some of your posts, and I've experienced some

>> similar existential angst. I know you said that life seems

>> meaningless, but I wonder if part of your problem isn't actually

>> the opposite of that: that you see life as too filled with

>> meaning, as too important, and so serious that every decision is

>> crushingly monumental. Just something to consider.

> --

> Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is

> our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth

> and our freedom. Viktor E. Frankl

#12860

From: "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:50 am
Subject: RE: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

neidersgun

Offline

Andrew,

An honest question. I have seen on National Public Television some very in depth studies on the bible, its evolution, how various Papal councils screwed around with what books to include in our current new testament, and things how greek culture superimposed on the teachings of Christ. There does appear to be some Universities that study the real history of bible, not the interpretation of bible. Were you involved in that part? How many tenured professors are there in United States who can do that? How many applicants for even a lowly instructor’s job at a university who does that? Or were you going to teach at a Evangelist University as Pat Roberts university. I really don’t get what kind of bible studies would you have gone into? Or were you going to throw away King James version of the bible and translate it from either Hebrew or Greek?

I somehow compare people with goals to gain positions for which there is intense competition with those of fledgling actresses and actors in Hollywood and New York, where in order to eat they have to serve tables or become prostitutes—or porn start, dancers, etc. How are you at those tasks? Maybe doing computer programming while studying “real history of bible” as “interpretation of bible by various evangelical churches to keep themselves in power, would not be so bad if you do not end up as “Midnight cowboy”

When Richard Gere was an American Gigolo, I would not have minded me becoming one—only needed a couple hundred thousand dollars to polish my Hoh Deutcsh, East Coast old money English, Castllian Spanish, the Russian of the literary speech, etc.etc. and get somebody to dress me up and introduce me to the right people. But meanwhile I was doing electrica/electronic/computer engineering until I really thought things through and came up with a totlly new important, original, concept of approaching stuttering therapy from. I defined the task done when I got everything thought through.��

"Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"

Gunars

#12859

From: "Nycki O'Neal" <nycki@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:41 am
Subject: RE: Dating #2/Rex

counselling_can

Offline

Oooh...thats sounds like 'mind-reading'! Isnt that one of our daily sins??!

:-)

-----Original Message-----
From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Rex Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:31 PM
To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Dating #2/Rex

Wed 11 Nov 09, 2:26 pm

Not at all! Maybe her spam filter snatched your e-mail. Maybe she is busy. Maybe she checked into rehab to be closer to Britney. Maybe she is shy. Maybe she is ambivalent. Maybe she appreciates persistence. Maybe her parrot died :o{ .

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that she isn't interested, but we cannot know that for sure at this stage. And since a phone call provides so many benefits with few costs (and in the REBT sense, even the costs are benefits), why not see what happens?

However, as we say in Thailand; Up to you, lah!

Aloha,

Rex

>

>

> Hi Rex,

>

> Don't you figure that she did not return my email, so she is

> probably not interested.

>

> I told her that I might send her an email.

>

> Brandon

>

>

> On 11/10/09, Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@spamarrest.com> wrote:

>>

>>

> Call her and ask for a date. Brunch dates are good. You can

> usually brunch at a nice restaurant cheaper than having dinner.

> Sometimes they even have specials. Typically no booze, so that's

> cheaper and better. Brunch dates are shorter and less threatening.

> If things click, you can always take it to the next level. If

> not, you have enjoyed a nice lunch and practiced your social

> skills. It is a "win-win" whichever way it goes.

>

>>

> If she is evasive or says "no" the date, that's good too. You can

> practice handling rejection, and more importantly, you can cross

> her off your list to free up energy to move on to the next

> opportunity.

>

>>

> Do send us invites to the wedding, willya?

>

> Aloha,

>

> Rex

>>

>>

>> Hello Everyone:

>>

>> I asked a women that I meet a work to have coffee with me.

>>

>> She gave me both her phone number and email address.

>>

>> I sent an email to her 2 days ago and she did not respond.

>>

>> Should I call her or just move on?

>>

>> Brandon

>

>

>

#12858

From: Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:42 am
Subject: Re: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

iamrex2000

Offline

Wed 11 Nov 09, 2:32 pm

I was speaking with my tongue in cheek, a little. I am really not all that knowledgeable about the existential philosophers. You make good points. However, more than one person posting here confuses depression with philosophy in ways that result in disturbance and limitation, and that is what I was elaborating on. I think understanding (or attempting to understand) our place in the Universe is probably a good thing. However, maybe it is neither good nor bad. Maybe it is merely a preference. As my pshrink once scolded me, "Rex, don't you realize that most people aren't interested in that crap?"

Taking it back to REBT, if existential rumination at "A" results in "B" Oh, how terrible! Life must have meaning or I can't bear to go on!" and then at "C" depression, and/or base hedonism or suicide, it is probably not suggestive of a useful philosophy.

Aloha,

Rex

> Well I've "had" existential angst, not so much anymore these days.

> I guess I disagree that existential angst is almost always just

> depression, although I can see where your coming from on that. I'm

> not sure though that feeling anxiety about the realization of your

> place in the universe should be considered a disorder. I think

> there are worthwhile emotions outside of pure enjoyment and some of

> that "angst" might be worth it. Of course too much of anything

> probably isn't too healthy.

> It's funny that you mention Camus, because it was some of his ideas

> in his absurdist philosophy that helped me out: "living without

> appeal," "acceptance without resignation," etc. I guess I don't

> see him as ultimately "gloomy" at all, but liberating. I see the

> choice between meaning and suicide as a false dichotomy but I

> really should just shut up and as Ellis would say PYA and practice

> my REBT! (my procrastination masquerades as philosophizing :)

> -DG

> "Re: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

> Wed 11 Nov 09, 12:14 pm

> It has been my experience that when things are going well and I am

> enjoying life, I do not have so called "existential angst." As I

> have said before, I believe that much or all existential angst is

> depression masquerading as philosophy. That is not to say that

> atheisits/agnositcs do not have to deal with "issues" which are

> different than the religious have.

> The ideas of Camus and those gloomy dudes can be very depressing,

> if we let them. However, if they were really serious about their

> gloomy existentialism, and really meant us to take them literally,

> why bother writing all those damn books in the first place?

> Writing books is hard work. If life is really meaningless, why

> bother? Just go the hedonist route, or suicide?

> Obviously, life was not so meaningless that it kept them from

> writing gloomy books, giving lectures and being invited to fancy

> parties populated by arty, avant-guarde types!

> Aloha,

> Rex"

#12857

From: Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:30 am
Subject: Re: Dating #2/Rex

iamrex2000

Offline

Wed 11 Nov 09, 2:26 pm

Not at all! Maybe her spam filter snatched your e-mail. Maybe she is busy. Maybe she checked into rehab to be closer to Britney. Maybe she is shy. Maybe she is ambivalent. Maybe she appreciates persistence. Maybe her parrot died :o{ .

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that she isn't interested, but we cannot know that for sure at this stage. And since a phone call provides so many benefits with few costs (and in the REBT sense, even the costs are benefits), why not see what happens?

However, as we say in Thailand; Up to you, lah!

Aloha,

Rex

> Hi Rex,

> Don't you figure that she did not return my email, so she is

> probably not interested.

> I told her that I might send her an email.

> Brandon

> On 11/10/09, Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...> wrote:

> Call her and ask for a date. Brunch dates are good. You can

> usually brunch at a nice restaurant cheaper than having dinner.

> Sometimes they even have specials. Typically no booze, so that's

> cheaper and better. Brunch dates are shorter and less threatening.

> If things click, you can always take it to the next level. If

> not, you have enjoyed a nice lunch and practiced your social

> skills. It is a "win-win" whichever way it goes.

> If she is evasive or says "no" the date, that's good too. You can

> practice handling rejection, and more importantly, you can cross

> her off your list to free up energy to move on to the next

> opportunity.

> Do send us invites to the wedding, willya?

> Aloha,

> Rex

>> Hello Everyone:

>> I asked a women that I meet a work to have coffee with me.

>> She gave me both her phone number and email address.

>> I sent an email to her 2 days ago and she did not respond.

>> Should I call her or just move on?

>> Brandon

#12856

From: Brandon Nagel <brandonagel@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 am
Subject: Dating #2/Rex

brandonagel...

Offline

�

Hi Rex,

�

Don't you figure that she did not return my email, so she is probably not interested.

�

I told her that I might send her an email.

�

Brandon

�

On 11/10/09, Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...> wrote:

�

Call her and ask for a date. �Brunch dates are good. �You can usually brunch at a nice restaurant cheaper than having dinner. �Sometimes they even have specials. � Typically no booze, so that's cheaper and better. �Brunch dates are shorter and less threatening. �If things click, you can always take it to the next level. �If not, you have enjoyed a nice lunch and practiced your social skills. �It is a "win-win" whichever way it goes. �

�

If she is evasive or says "no" �the date, that's good too. �You can practice handling rejection, and more importantly, you can cross her off your list to free up energy to move on to the next opportunity.

�

Do send us invites to the wedding, willya? �

�

Aloha,

�

Rex

>

>

> Hello Everyone:

>

> I asked a women that I meet a work to have coffee with me.

>

> She gave me both her phone number and email address.

>

> I sent an email to her�2 days ago and she�did not respond.

>

> Should I call her or just move on?

>

> Brandon

>

>

>

#12855

From: "diogenes0" <diogenes0@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

diogenes0

Offline

Well I've "had" existential angst, not so much anymore these days.  I guess I
disagree that existential angst is almost always just depression, although I can
see where your coming from on that.  I'm not sure though that feeling anxiety
about the realization of your place in the universe should be considered a
disorder.  I think there are worthwhile emotions outside of pure enjoyment and
some of that "angst" might be worth it.  Of course too much of anything probably
isn't too healthy.

It's funny that you mention Camus, because it was some of his ideas in his
absurdist philosophy that helped me out: "living without appeal," "acceptance
without resignation," etc.  I guess I don't see him as ultimately "gloomy" at
all, but liberating.  I see the choice between meaning and suicide as a false
dichotomy but I really should just shut up and as Ellis would say PYA and
practice my REBT! (my procrastination masquerades as philosophizing :)

-DG





"Re: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10

Wed 11 Nov 09, 12:14 pm

It has been my experience that when things are going well and I am enjoying
life, I do not have so called "existential angst."  As I have said before, I
believe that much or all existential angst is depression masquerading as
philosophy.  That is not to say that atheisits/agnositcs do not have to deal
with "issues" which are different than the religious have.

The ideas of Camus and those gloomy dudes can be very depressing, if we let
them.  However, if they were really serious about their gloomy existentialism,
and really meant us to take them literally, why bother writing all those damn
books in the first place?  Writing books is hard work.  If life is really
meaningless, why bother?  Just go the hedonist route, or suicide?

Obviously, life was not so meaningless that it kept them from writing gloomy
books, giving lectures and being invited to fancy parties populated by arty,
avant-guarde types!

Aloha,

Rex"

#12854

From: Brandon Nagel <brandonagel@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:38 am
Subject: Re: Dating

brandonagel...

Offline

�

I will call her�for a coffee date.

�

If she is evasive, or I leave a message and she does not call me back I will move on.

�

I am not really hung up on the outcome one way or the other.

�

Thanks,

�

Brandon

�

On 11/10/09, Rex Alexander <rex9gm3@...> wrote:

�

Call her and ask for a date. �Brunch dates are good. �You can usually brunch at a nice restaurant cheaper than having dinner. �Sometimes they even have specials. � Typically no booze, so that's cheaper and better. �Brunch dates are shorter and less threatening. �If things click, you can always take it to the next level. �If not, you have enjoyed a nice lunch and practiced your social skills. �It is a "win-win" whichever way it goes. �

�

If she is evasive or says "no" �the date, that's good too. �You can practice handling rejection, and more importantly, you can cross her off your list to free up energy to move on to the next opportunity.

�

Do send us invites to the wedding, willya? �

�

Aloha,

�

Rex

>

>

> Hello Everyone:

>

> I asked a women that I meet a work to have coffee with me.

>

> She gave me both her phone number and email address.

>

> I sent an email to her�2 days ago and she�did not respond.

>

> Should I call her or just move on?

>

> Brandon

>

>

>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (7)

#12853

From: "Nycki O'Neal" <nycki@...>
Date: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:05 am
Subject: RE: Dating

counselling_can

Offline