Gunars,

That is fine. Arguing with a depressed person takes allot of time and force
since us depressed people "like" to keep ourselves depressed.

Arguing with a depressed philosopher well... that's a crazy ass thing to do.

Please continue to suggest solid actions for me to take like homework. I've
found that quite helpful.

We will both keep it shorter since both of us have priorities besides debating
on this message board.. Now if you would like to tutor me in Java..

peace,

Andrew




--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
>
>
> E-mails are often miswritten and misunderstood. I only meant to say that
> even though long discussions are entertaining, they are at this moment a
> drain on my time. If we can keep them as short as the one you just wrote—or
> preferably even shorter—I have no reason not to give you my opinions. :-)
>
> What I intended to object is the long in depth conversations. They were
> eating up time which I (conditional need) need to go after my Life Strategic
> Plan. Some of your arguments are indeed logical and even technically
> correct. For example, I am a subscriber to the basic premise of logical
> positivism-that eventually everything every hypotheses has to based on
> empirical observation--has but I was not up to date that there were other
> premises that have been updated.
>
> I really don't want to get into side issues. I think if you write a
> Strategic Life Plan, you can later adjust it. Your life plan can include
> desire and wants such as contributing something important and even become
> famous, as long as it is not a need and not a prerequisite for unconditional
> self-acceptance.
>
>
>
>
> "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
>
>         Gunars
>
>   _____
>
> From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Andrew
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:44 PM
> To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: More Reponse to Gunars
>
>
>
>
>
> Well Gunars,
>
> I think that it is premature to give up on me man but that certainly is your
> choice. I've actually found dialogue with you quite encouraging.
>
> Because I know you are correct about a good deal and I realize that a number
> of my arguments are indeed unsound. The conditional self acceptance shit has
> to go.
>
> I see you as someone who had a problem similar to my own and used a creative
> solution to solve it. I'm already borrowing your strategies even if I
> haven't quite solved my problem yet.
>
> You know I woke up this morning thinking. Hey I actually kind of like parts
> of my life. I have a ton of problems but that doesn't mean I have to dwell
> on them all day and not notice what I can enjoy.
>
> You are correct about universities I did not read carefully. Plato and
> Aristotle taught at the Academy in Athens and that may well have been a
> different beast than a modern university.
>
> I would like to continue the homework for awhile longer. We don't have to
> get into deep conversations like this if you choose not.
>
> Peace,
>
> Andrew
>
>
> --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> >
> >
> > I choose to move on. I gave you my best shot, but you—my biblical scholar
> of
> > Talmudic bent :-)—have more arguments and "yeah, buts" than Carter has
> liver
> > pills. :-) Good luck, dude. For every Socratic question and statement I
> have
> > there is an apparently good counter question and statements that I would
> > have to research. For example, I do not think that Universities were
> > established until sometime in 15 or 16 century…but I can't swear to it
> > without researching.
> >
> >
> >
> > My parting shot is that unless you have unconditional self-acceptance
> > perfuming your imagined shithood with some grand accomplishment is a waste
> > of time. At least that is what I found. I just chose to pursue other
> things
> > that I want to do…my priorities are 1) my health, 2) dissemination of my
> > theories of stuttering developmental stages and therapy steps, 3) my
> family,
> > and 4) finding an internship.
> >
> >
> >
> > This is one time when I can truthfully say, I gave my best shot, and I
> > failed. But that does not make me feel like a failure. Just that it is
> time
> > to cut the bait and move on. Good luck buddy.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> > pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
> >
> > Gunars
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@
> <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Andrew
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:50 PM
> > To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] More Reponse to Gunars
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > See comments below
> >
> > --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D."
> > <neidersg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I will only make a few points on what are the most important issues:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > > Honestly, Gunars, my fascination is more with the idea of teaching at a
> > > college and knowledge in general. I could probably be content doing such
> > in
> > > a number of fields as long as I was good a them. I see it as such a
> noble
> > > and purposeful calling rather than just taking orders from the man.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gunars answer:
> > >
> > > If you were to teach in one of the top notch schools, you would have to
> > > publish or perish. And play real demeaning, ass kissing politics.
> >
> > Yeah that is true. I would not like that.
> > >
> > > Here is my evidence:
> > >
> > > 1) Why do you think Ellis got out of it?
> >
> > I didn't realize Ellis was ever in it. Was it during his sexologist days?
> > >
> > > 2) My father said, "Universities are the graveyard of good minds" (in
> > > medicine, for example the best faculty are adjunct faculty who do their
> > > research and treating of people elsewhere)
> >
> > Well for people who study non-pragmatic things like I was the university
> is
> > the only place that they can make a living. Few care about what an
> ameuteur
> > philosopher of biblical scholar has to say.
> > >
> > > 3) Except for Heidegger, whose personal behavior can be characterized
> > > as an ass kissing Nazi—he joined the Nazi party in 1932 or 1933—who
> > > dismissed all the Jewish faculty in his department at the university,
> > there
> > > was no philosopher of note who I know who taught at a university;
> >
> > You forgot about Plato and Aristotle.
> >
> > >
> > > 4) My sister who teaches at SUNY tells me that University life is full
> > > of Byzantine politics;
> >
> > I believe it but at least in theory they care about knowledge. I'm nothing
> > more than a battery to Corporate America. Corporations have allot of
> > politics too. That is part of the human situation.
> > >
> > > 5) The man with the best mind, Henry Lortz, gave up tenure track in
> > > mathematics to work for Boeing. My hobby has been learning European
> > > languages—he studied Japanese. His grasp of mathematics and the ability
> to
> > > teach it was unsurpassed. But he just could not stomach the politics and
> > low
> > > pay at University of Washington. He was one of the top bridge players in
> > the
> > > world. He won a lot of tournaments…
> >
> > Yeah but he still had something else that he was really good at. I don't.
> I
> > can do other stuff but I want badly to be good at what I do and have
> others
> > appreciate that.
> > >
> > > 6) How many full time faculty have you talked to about the life at a
> > > University. Most of them when they advise a student on the
> dissertations,
> > > steal the student's ideas and publish them either on their own or
> register
> > > themselves as the first authors. A filthy bunch of pigs.
> >
> > I have insufficient data on thesis theft. I do know that one of my best
> > professor friends hated the politics.. at least in theory.. since he had
> his
> > own agenda.
> >
> > Why do you think there is so much politics?
> >
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > > Most major universities have programs in biblical studies. Um well..
> > > intellectual value there was more than my recent jobs. I learned a good
> > deal
> > > about history and how culture and language evolves. Fascinating shit my
> > > friend. Gunars, I don't believe the bible is the divine word of any
> deity.
> > > If I could find something else I was as good at I might agree with you.
> > But
> > > I'm not near as good at my current pursuits. I really wanted to be kick
> > ass
> > > at what I do. I have also had a hard time becoming as interested as I
> was
> > > before.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gunars answer:
> > >
> > > If you really are that interested in the topic, why don't you write a
> good
> > > book on it without the fricken degree. If it fascinates you, do what I
> > did.
> > > I studied stuttering problem on the side. And at the end of the life I
> am
> > > going to publish, what I believe will be a seminal work in stuttering
> > > therapy. So spend an hour a day at it, if you really, really love it.
> But
> > I
> > > fear you only want to be admired by other people. Just like some movie
> > > starlet. Re-read Ellis Irrational idea #1. As a homework, at least tell
> me
> > > what it is and what you think of it and the arguments Ellis gives for it
> > > being irrational. If you want to be a scholar, you better re-start
> acting
> > > like one. I know you were a scholar once, now use that talent to
> > understand
> > > REBT:-). Surely you can be a scholar in more than one area, eh? :-)
> > >
> > Ah I'm not sure that I can Gunars, I'm a fuckin hack. I try really hard
> > but shit doesn't really work out for me. I like REBT I'm working on that.
> > But I feel very down when I think that I might not be able to get a good
> job
> > and be good at it. That I'm just good at non pragmatic stuff and
> apparently
> > not even smart enough to get that gig.
> >
> > As far as writing a book I would love to and actually started one (its on
> > the backburner) right now but I'm thinking over ideas.
> >
> > I'm thinking about writing one call Suffering without God drawing on my
> > experiences with my own medical struggles and how we can face suffering
> > without a God to cry out to and how belief in God can make suffering
> worse.
> >
> > Also I thinkint about writing one aimed at young people that are doubting
> > their faith but have allot of guilt about it. Something like Losing the
> > Faith: A How to Guide.
> >
> > But you know that no one will listen to me without a damn doctorate.
> >
> > If that were not true then why did you need to do a second doctorate
> rather
> > than just publishing your work on your own?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately Logical positivism has been largely discredited for a
> number
> > > of reasons. Almost no one believes that anymore.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gunars answer:
> > >
> > > This is one time where I was not very exact at my answer and
> hip-shooting.
> > > What I really meant was not only the basic "logical positivism", but how
> > it
> > > was adapted by critiques which you can read in Wikipedia on "Logical
> > > positivism". My answer was a first order one. See below:
> > >
> > > Logical positivism (also called logical empiricism and neo-positivism)
> is
> > a
> > > school of philosophy that combines empiricism
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism>
> .org/wiki/Empiricism> , the idea that observational
> > > evidence is indispensable for knowledge of the world, with a version of
> > > rationalism <http://en.wikipedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism> .org/wiki/Rationalism>
> incorporating
> > > mathematical and logico-linguistic constructs and deductions in
> > epistemology
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology>
> .org/wiki/Epistemology> .
> > >
> > <http://en.wikipedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism#cite_note-name-0#cite_note-
> > .org/wiki/Logical_positivism#cite_note-name-0#cite_note-
> > > name-0> [1]
> > >
> > > Logical positivism grew from the discussions of a group called the
> "First
> > > Vienna Circle" which gathered at the Café
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Central>
> .org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Central> Central before World War
> > > I. After the war Hans Hahn <http://en.wikipedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Hahn> .org/wiki/Hans_Hahn> , a
> > > member of that early group, helped bring Moritz
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moritz_Schlick>
> .org/wiki/Moritz_Schlick> Schlick to Vienna. Schlick's
> > > Vienna Circle <http://en.wikipedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Circle> .org/wiki/Vienna_Circle> ,
> along with
> > Hans
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reichenbach>
> .org/wiki/Hans_Reichenbach> Reichenbach's Berlin
> > Circle
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Circle_>
> .org/wiki/Berlin_Circle_(philosophy)> , propagated the
> > > new doctrines more widely in the 1920s and early 1930s. It was Otto
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Neurath>
> .org/wiki/Otto_Neurath> Neurath's advocacy that made
> > > the movement self-conscious and more widely known. A 1929 pamphlet
> written
> > > by Neurath, Hahn, and Rudolf <http://en.wikipedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Carnap> .org/wiki/Rudolf_Carnap>
> > > Carnap summarized the doctrines of the Vienna Circle at that time. These
> > > included: the opposition to all metaphysics
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics>
> .org/wiki/Metaphysics> , especially ontology
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology>
> .org/wiki/Ontology> and synthetic a priori
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_a_priori>
> .org/wiki/Synthetic_a_priori> propositions; the
> > > rejection of metaphysics not as wrong but as having no meaning; a
> > criterion
> > > of meaning based on Ludwig Wittgenstein
> > > <http://en.wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein>
> .org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein> 's early work; the idea
> > > that all knowledge should be codifiable in a single standard language of
> > > science; and above all the project of "rational reconstruction", in
> which
> > > ordinary-language concepts were gradually to be replaced by more precise
> > > equivalents in that standard language. In the early 1930s, the Vienna
> > Circle
> > > dispersed, mainly because of political upheaval and the untimely deaths
> of
> > > Hahn and Schlick. The most prominent proponents of logical positivism
> > > emigrated to United Kingdom and United States, where they considerably
> > > influenced American philosophy. Until the 1950s, logical positivism was
> > the
> > > leading school in the philosophy of science. During this period of
> > upheaval,
> > > Carnap proposed a replacement for the earlier doctrines in his "Logical
> > > Syntax of Language". This change of direction and the somewhat differing
> > > views of Reichenbach and others led to a consensus that the English name
> > for
> > > the shared doctrinal platform, in its American exile from the late
> 1930s,
> > > should be "logical empiricism".
> > >
> > > I guess that not having read Wittgenstein myself, I am relying on my gut
> > > feel. And I do not intend to spend time defending what I call the
> > esoterica
> > > of philosophy of science. What I should have said is that I generally
> > agree
> > > with the evolving philosophy based on logical positivism.
> > >
> > > As for nobody believing it—it is the sign of the times—many philosophers
> > > believe in postmodernism, which I consider a bunch of shit. But again, I
> > am
> > > not going to take time and refute it point by point. What I believe is
> > that
> > > there is some reality out there and some means to validate it by
> empirical
> > > methods. No fricken esoterica for me. Don't have time in this world.
> Come
> > > to think of it, maybe Wittgenstein was also in academia.
> >
> > You know lets discuss logical positivism and philosophy of science at
> > another juncture. I would love to do so with you but even I admit that it
> is
> > a bit removed from my present concerns.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > But if I bag that shit it shows that I'm a failure and that I didn't
> > really
> > > have what it takes. Plus, what the hell. I spent allot of time learning
> > > this shit. I would like to utilize part of my education somehow.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gunars answer:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How does bagging it make you a failure. Use your best philosophy of
> > science
> > > knowledge and prove it to me.
> >
> > It makes me feel like a god damn failure. My old roommate is a damn
> > professor now, of course at an Evangelical school which I would not like,
> > but he fucking made it.
> >
> > My other old college friend went to Princeton for graduate school. I'm
> > doing squat.. chatting about Greek at the bar. What the hell? I threw
> > myself into that project and it didn't pan out.. and I was damn good at
> that
> > stuff too.
> >
> > It says something about my lack of intelligence and lack of perseverance,
> > Gunars. There is empirical evidence that I lack essential traits for
> > success.
> >
> >
> > > As for using your education, if you would read "Borrowed Brilliance" by
> > > David Kord Murray, and stop whining :-), maybe you could come up with a
> > > creative way how to use it.
> >
> > Man get off your ass and use that brain of
> > > yours. :-) I really think that there is a way of using your education to
> > > synthesize/create a unique answer. But if you are unwilling to learn—a
> > hell
> > > of a stance for a scholar—but are just invested in whining, shit won't
> > > magically happen. How much time, by the way, are you spending on
> Borrowed
> > > Brilliance. I would really like your answer on this item.
> >
> > I am reading it! I'm a quarter of the way through. I'm reading about
> Darwin.
> > My areas of expertise seem far removed from business or anything
> practical.
> > I can't see how to pull things together at this point. I also have
> classwork
> > so I have to prioritize.
> >
> > >
> > > Andrew wrote:
> > >
> > > I want to debunk that shit. Haven't you listened when I have said over
> and
> > > over I'm an atheist now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Gunars answer:
> > >
> > > Again I invite you to be a real scholar. Read the many books where
> > religion
> > > is debunked say Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Dawkins (I think this is a
> > > current book) and do an Amazon or Google search. Then see if there is a
> > > space or a place where you can do a better job than they did. For me it
> is
> > > so fricken obvious, and so many people have written about it, that it
> > would
> > > take a lot of organized effort (a la "Borrowed Brilliance") to find a
> > place
> > > in the pantheon of atheists. But start out on it. However, remember that
> > you
> > > have to eat. You need a profession. Mine was an electrical engineer. I
> > > also—just like you—need to prioritize. This philosophizing on REBT-CBT
> > FORUM
> > > with you has helped me to see my own weaknesses. But this bullshitting
> > > without action, eventually has to stop—on my part, at least.
> > >
> > Dawkins doesn't have the biblical nor philosophical background knowledge
> > that I do. That said I like him even when he over simplifies. But yes I
> got
> > to eat.. so.. that's why I'm working to try to bring this MIS thing to
> > fruition.
> > >
> > > Concluding statement: You have to write a Strategic Life Plan, like I
> did.
> > > Then you have to start setting goals and subgoals. I believe that
> reading
> > > "Borrowed Brilliance" could get you to where you can do your thing.
> > >
> > Indeed I will finish it in due time. Patience.. my friend.
> >
> > > You wrote: Write controversial books and maybe someday make the $5,000 a
> > pop
> > > for speaking engagements like my boy Bart Erhman does.
> > > :
> > >
> > > Gunars answer: I don't know the dude, but study how he got where he is
> and
> > > maybe you can do shit like that also. Study all the people who are
> > successes
> > > in your field. But do it in a prioritized and do not scatter your focus.
> > > Having this conversation has made me aware that I am pissing away my
> life
> > > also, by not following my strategic plan more closely.
> > >
> > Hmm... went to Wheaton College as I did.. but then moved on to Princeton..
> > crap.. Maybe I should just write my book and send it to him since he said
> > he would read over it for me.
> >
> > I don't think you are pissing away your life man.. that seems like an over
> > generalization. I envy you greatly. I'm getting allot out of our
> > conversation.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> > > pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
> > >
> > > Gunars
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of Andrew
> > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 12:09 AM
> > > To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Response to Gunars
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D."
> > > neidersg@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Andrew,
> > > >
> > > > See below
> > > >
> > > > I read The Bible cover to cover at the age of 13 even before I knew
> what
> > > > Yale and Harvard scholars hypothesize from the scientific studies of
> for
> > > > example, word frequencies, writing styles, papal council records,
> > > > lost/discarded books of New Testament etc. and concluded that
> > Christianity
> > > > and Judaism (and by induction Muslim religion) is based on very flimsy
> > > > evidence. I became an atheist on the spot. Epistemologically it just
> did
> > > not
> > > > hold up. So I turned into an atheist. However, if you were my client,
> > > which
> > > > you are not, I would not discuss the following with you. I would not
> > have
> > > > time to argue about the existence of non-existent gods, but would
> adapt
> > my
> > > > therapy based Hank Robb's pamphlet that can be from Albert Ellis
> > institute
> > > > about how to get better with the help of Christian bible and
> Nielsen's,
> > > > Johnson, and Ellis book Counseling and Psychotherapy with Religious
> > > Persons:
> > > > A Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy Approach.
> > >
> > > Well I'm happy that you are not my therapist. Since the religious issue
> > > would be a key one and you would be unable to address it.
> > > >
> > > > An honest question to a friend—which I think we have become in the
> > > > REBT-CBT-FORUM: What is your fascination with graduate study in
> biblical
> > > > studies? Do you think it is a divine book? Are you interested in
> > > unearthing
> > > > more about the diverse authors of the bible? Are you going to make a
> > list
> > > of
> > > > all the other Gospel's that were tossed out by the various popes and
> > Papal
> > > > Councils? Or are you just translating freak from Hebrew and Greek to
> > > modern
> > > > English. I believe that King James version is about as good as it
> gets.
> > > > There was at least one modern version, but I have not seen it succeed.
> > > >
> > > Ha! the King James version... um.. based on poor manuscripts. Well first
> I
> > > love the languages more than the text itself. Something about being able
> > > to read a text few can turns me on. As someone hurt by a religion I
> could
> > > see a potential "purpose" in refuting the damn thing. Really what the
> hell
> > > else am I going to do with the knowledge I worked hard to gain? I feel
> > like
> > > a failure if I don't utilize the knowledge I tried so hard to learn.
> > >
> > > Honestly, Gunars, my fascination is more with the idea of teaching at a
> > > college and knowledge in general. I could probably be content doing such
> > in
> > > a number of fields as long as I was good a them. I see it as such a
> noble
> > > and purposeful calling rather than just taking orders from the man.
> > > >
> > > > What major universities have "graduate studies in biblical study"? So
> > you
> > > > got "A's" in it. Gave you a lot of positive feedback. Does it have
> more
> > > > meaning than being good at tiddly-winks: Not many jobs in it. And of
> no
> > > > fricken intellectual value. If I were you I would be happy to have
> > > forsaken
> > > > the god forsaken topic and move on to something in life that at least
> > can
> > > > earn you a living.
> > >
> > > Most major universities have programs in biblical studies. Um well..
> > > intellectual value there was more than my recent jobs. I learned a good
> > deal
> > > about history and how culture and language evolves. Fascinating shit my
> > > friend. Gunars, I don't believe the bible is the divine word of any
> deity.
> > > If I could find something else I was as good at I might agree with you.
> > But
> > > I'm not near as good at my current pursuits. I really wanted to be kick
> > ass
> > > at what I do. I have also had a hard time becoming as interested as I
> was
> > > before.
> > > >
> > > > There was a golden era in philosophy: Karl Popper, et al. They really
> > > > thought about thinking and epistemology. I guess I believe in logical
> > > > positivism.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately Logical positivism has been largely discredited for a
> number
> > > of reasons. Almost no one believes that anymore.
> > >
> > > On the other hand Heidegger, in my opinion with his
> > > > philosophical foundations for post-modernism was just a bullshitter. I
> > > think
> > > > that, as the current discussion and books argue that his Nazi past has
> > > > soiled his thinking may also well be true. But at least we can
> > > intelligently
> > > > talk about the topic. To me the opinions of Nietzsche and novels of
> > Camus
> > > > are also worth reading. Once. But there are many people who are
> > interested
> > > > in basics and history of philosophy, and if you have a mind for
> playing
> > > mind
> > > > games, you have a probability of getting a low paid job (really low
> paid
> > > > job) as part time instructor and devote your time to it. Just like
> some
> > > > people play bridge or chess.
> > > >
> > > Shit Gunars, if I was as kick ass as you are at computer shit. I would
> > play
> > > chess on the side.. by getting a masters in Philosophy and doing a
> little
> > > adjunct work. I wish I could get interested in something that pays more
> > > money. I'm having trouble here. I care so much about ideas and less
> about
> > > particulars.
> > >
> > > > In a nutshell unless your church wants to pick and choose passages
> from
> > > > bible to fight against abortion rights, universal health care, start
> > wars
> > > > against other religions and they a priori promise you a job after you
> > are
> > > > done with graduate studies in the Christian bible (you will never
> > surpass
> > > > the Talmudian scholars because they start at an early age), I would
> just
> > > bag
> > > > that shit. So cares if you are good at tiddly-winks. :-)
> > >
> > > Gunars, I learned to chant the Torah at a synagogue and I have a copy of
> > the
> > > Mishna on my bookshelf. Yes the Talmudic scholars are impressive. The
> > > agricultural law is a bit boring though honestly. But if I bag that shit
> > it
> > > shows that I'm a failure and that I didn't really have what it takes.
> > Plus,
> > > what the hell. I spent allot of time learning this shit. I would like to
> > > utilize part of my education somehow.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, what school did you attend to study bible? Did you
> research
> > > how
> > > > many of their graduates have jobs? One of my close acquaintances—I
> can't
> > > > call him a friend because I cannot talk to him honestly, he would
> freak
> > > > out—when to Theology Department in University of Latvia (Lutheran
> > > dominated
> > > > department) in order to become an ordained minister. Is that what you
> > want
> > > > to be?
> > >
> > > Hell no! Gunars, I don't want to be a god damn minister. I want to
> debunk
> > > that shit. Haven't you listened when I have said over and over I'm an
> > > atheist now.
> > >
> > > > Andrew, answer only if you want to. It will not change our
> relationship.
> > > In
> > > > this one area, this area of religion, I consider you to be as full of
> > shit
> > > > as a Christmas turkey. :-) But we can still be friends and correspond
> > > about
> > > > other things.
> > >
> > > I hope you mean a cleaned and prepared Christmas Turkey. Its not just
> > about
> > > biblical studies. Its about doing something I feel I'm good at. If I
> could
> > > find something else I'm good at then it would easier to just dabble in
> > this
> > > on the side. It's also that I feel so god damn at home on a college
> > campus.
> > > I feel like I was "meant" to be there engaged with ideas and teaching.
> > Beats
> > > working for the man (corporate america) which doesn't give a shit about
> > his
> > > workers or ideas.
> > >
> > > > On the other hand when I read Ellis and Harper's first edition of The
> > > guide
> > > > to rational living in 1966, I was enthralled. Since then I have read
> all
> > > the
> > > > books by Albert Ellis. Not that I agree with him on everything he
> wrote,
> > > but
> > > > I could take real knowledge away from his books. He still makes sense
> to
> > > me,
> > > > unlike the bible where you can pick and chose different passages and
> > > > interpret them in any way you choose. That is why we have had so many
> > > > Christian denominations and wars between the various factions, like
> the
> > > > vicious one in Northern Ireland where brother against brother were
> > > murdering
> > > > each other in the name of a non-existent god.
> > >
> > > Gunars, I like Ellis and I like philosophy for this reason. I can
> utilize
> > it
> > > to live a better life. I just read Elliot Cohen's What Would Aristotle
> Do?
> > > and found it a good read. I have grown to like psychology now as well. I
> > > once thought it was just bullshit because of Freud.
> > >
> > > > Now we have another war of Muslims against Christians. And political
> > fight
> > > > inside of United States where the Christian Right is against those of
> us
> > > who
> > > > believe in Christ's philosophy, "Love their neighbor as thyself" and
> > > giving
> > > > at least children some health insurance so they would not die or be
> > > crippled
> > > > unnecessarily.
> > >
> > > Even when I was a Christian I thought Jesus was more of a socialist. I
> > > never bought into that Christian Right crap.
> > > >
> > > > But, Andrew, your good has given to you, you think, a freedom to make
> > your
> > > > choices. If you really want to feel miserable about not becoming a
> > scholar
> > > > of a useless book, go ahead. Free will, as a philosophical concept, is
> > > still
> > > > very slippery. Can we really have free will, if our genetic make-up
> > > provides
> > > > tendency toward how we feel, think, act and perceive and our
> experiences
> > > > "express our genes"—encourage or discourage us to act, feel, and think
> > as
> > > we
> > > > are genetically predisposed to. And then there is classical and
> > > instrumental
> > > > conditioning…
> > > >
> > > Yes we can have free will I'm a compatibilist. Different debate for
> > another
> > > day. That useless book has profoundly influenced our culture. I could
> work
> > > against that trend. Write controversial books and maybe someday make the
> > > $5,000 a pop for speaking engagements like my boy Bart Erhman does.
> > > >
> > > > "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> > > > pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
> > > >
> > > > Gunars
> > > >
> > > > _____
> > > >
> > > > From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com]
> > > > On Behalf Of Andrew
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:03 PM
> > > > To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@ <mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM%40yahoogroups.com>
> yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rex, thanks for your suggestions. I found the story helpful. Nice to
> > know
> > > > that other people besides me face crazy confusing stuff sometimes. Not
> > > > moving to China but may end up moving to another state. May also go
> > broke
> > > > remains to be seen.
> > > >
> > > > 1.Today, I enjoyed crepes and Earl Grey tea for lunch. I am also
> > > > appreciating all the assistance Rex, Gunars, and Will have given me as
> I
> > > > work through things.
> > > >
> > > > 2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I
> > > > created some meaning by listening to more epistemology while cleaning
> up
> > > the
> > > > house.
> > > >
> > > > 3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats
> > > project,
> > > > did exercises, meditated.
> > > >
> > > > 4. What I found difficult: Intense self hate for not turning back to
> > > > graduate study in biblical studies now that I'm feeling better
> > physically.
> > > > Intense self hate for failing at my most important goal of becoming a
> > > > professor. Also Car breaking down and $600 bill.
> > > >
> > > > 5. A current life goal of mine is to learn to play more songs from
> > memory.
> > > > Did so by practicing guitar a half hour.
> > > >
> > > > 6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study Java,
> do
> > > yoga
> > > > stretches and apply to a few jobs.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Ha! I have the same problem with my dream of being a professor. Boy I don't
know. It is hard as hell to balance reality with our dreams and know if we were
giving up to early..

As far as Ross Perot I wouldn't take his advice to strongly about pressing on
and not quitting.

Blues is cool though...

Andrew

--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "kanangus_maximus" <paulbaughman@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm guilty of "Pie-in-the-sky" syndrome.
>
> I can't help it. I've been chasing this for such a long time - and have put so
much time into it - it's hard to just drop it. Where do I go from here? What do
I do with all that energy (debatable) that I put into this?
>
> I've been wanting  a career as a musician for such a long time, but now, as a
48 year old man, how realistic is that?
>
> I wasn't aiming for an MTV, pop radio career. Blues is what I'm interested in.
This is a style that is dominated by people who are almost all older than me -
though now, not much older.
>
> I've been waffling lately and had come to a decision to treat music as a hobby
and that when my day job interfered, I'd just give that priority, do what needs
to be done. I can still practice and enjoy music as a hobby at home in my spare
time, right?
>
> I still can't get it out of my head though. I'm concerned that I'll torture
myself for years thinking that, if I'd only tried harder or stuck with it, I
might have made it.
>
> I recently read a quote by Ross Perot : "Most people stop digging three feet
from the goldmine."
>
> What if I had made it to the level I had wanted, touring the country, doing
tours and blues festivals throughout Europe? Would I have been satisfied?
>
> So, what am I asking here?
>
> Is it realistic to keep chasing a dream - one that you might not like now that
your older and not as resilient (life on the road).
>
> Maybe that's not a good question to ask - or not the right question to ask.
>
> I think a therapist would ask me something like, "what is it that's really
bothering you?".
>
> To that, I'd say, ..... "should I quit or not?". Dang it.
>
> See?  I can't even articulate my problem, my thinking is so twisted up.
>

1.Today, I enjoyed taking a walk to get away from Java. Blueberry flavored tea.
Petting our cat, which I love.

2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I created some
meaning by spending time with my wife.

3. What I accomplished: I'm halfway through lab 4.

4. What I found difficult: Java.. Mixed feeling about career direction. Mixed
feelings about marital relationship. Not sure of the best path.

5. A current life goal of mine is to stop making a teaching position at a
university a prerequisite for self acceptance. I pursued this goal today by
choosing not to label myself as a failure.

6. My plan for tomorrow to continue working on Lab 4. To work on my Stats
project. To go for a jog.

Andrew

I'm guilty of "Pie-in-the-sky" syndrome.

I can't help it. I've been chasing this for such a long time - and have put so
much time into it - it's hard to just drop it. Where do I go from here? What do
I do with all that energy (debatable) that I put into this?

I've been wanting  a career as a musician for such a long time, but now, as a 48
year old man, how realistic is that?

I wasn't aiming for an MTV, pop radio career. Blues is what I'm interested in.
This is a style that is dominated by people who are almost all older than me -
though now, not much older.

I've been waffling lately and had come to a decision to treat music as a hobby
and that when my day job interfered, I'd just give that priority, do what needs
to be done. I can still practice and enjoy music as a hobby at home in my spare
time, right?

I still can't get it out of my head though. I'm concerned that I'll torture
myself for years thinking that, if I'd only tried harder or stuck with it, I
might have made it.

I recently read a quote by Ross Perot : "Most people stop digging three feet
from the goldmine."

What if I had made it to the level I had wanted, touring the country, doing
tours and blues festivals throughout Europe? Would I have been satisfied?

So, what am I asking here?

Is it realistic to keep chasing a dream - one that you might not like now that
your older and not as resilient (life on the road).

Maybe that's not a good question to ask - or not the right question to ask.

I think a therapist would ask me something like, "what is it that's really
bothering you?".

To that, I'd say, ..... "should I quit or not?". Dang it.

See?  I can't even articulate my problem, my thinking is so twisted up.

Well Gunars,

I think that it is premature to give up on me man but that certainly is your
choice. I've actually found dialogue with you quite encouraging.

Because I know you are correct about a good deal and I realize that a number of
my arguments are indeed unsound.  The conditional self acceptance shit has to
go.

I see you as someone who had a problem similar to my own and used a creative
solution to solve it.  I'm already borrowing your strategies even if I haven't
quite solved my problem yet.

You know I woke up this morning thinking. Hey I actually kind of like parts of
my life. I have a ton of problems but that doesn't mean I have to dwell on them
all day and not notice what I can enjoy.

You are correct about universities I did not read carefully. Plato and Aristotle
taught at the Academy in Athens and that may well have been a different beast
than a modern university.

I would like to continue the homework for awhile longer. We don't have to get
into deep conversations like this if you choose not.

Peace,

Andrew





--- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D." <neidersg@...>
wrote:
>
> Andrew,
>
>
>
> I choose to move on. I gave you my best shot, but you—my biblical scholar of
> Talmudic bent :-)—have more arguments and "yeah, buts" than Carter has liver
> pills. :-) Good luck, dude. For every Socratic question and statement I have
> there is an apparently good counter question and statements that I would
> have to research. For example, I do not think that Universities were
> established until sometime in 15 or 16 century…but I can't swear to it
> without researching.
>
>
>
> My parting shot is that unless you have unconditional self-acceptance
> perfuming your imagined shithood with some grand accomplishment is a waste
> of time. At least that is what I found. I just chose to pursue other things
> that I want to do…my priorities are 1) my health, 2) dissemination of my
> theories of stuttering developmental stages and therapy steps, 3) my family,
> and 4) finding an internship.
>
>
>
> This is one time when I can truthfully say, I gave my best shot, and I
> failed. But that does not make me feel like a failure. Just that it is time
> to cut the bait and move on. Good luck buddy.
>
>
>
> "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
>
>         Gunars
>
>   _____
>
> From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Andrew
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:50 PM
> To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] More Reponse to Gunars
>
>
>
>
>
> See comments below
>
> --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D."
> <neidersg@> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew,
> >
> >
> >
> > I will only make a few points on what are the most important issues:
> >
> >
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, Gunars, my fascination is more with the idea of teaching at a
> > college and knowledge in general. I could probably be content doing such
> in
> > a number of fields as long as I was good a them. I see it as such a noble
> > and purposeful calling rather than just taking orders from the man.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gunars answer:
> >
> > If you were to teach in one of the top notch schools, you would have to
> > publish or perish. And play real demeaning, ass kissing politics.
>
> Yeah that is true. I would not like that.
> >
> > Here is my evidence:
> >
> > 1) Why do you think Ellis got out of it?
>
> I didn't realize Ellis was ever in it. Was it during his sexologist days?
> >
> > 2) My father said, "Universities are the graveyard of good minds" (in
> > medicine, for example the best faculty are adjunct faculty who do their
> > research and treating of people elsewhere)
>
> Well for people who study non-pragmatic things like I was the university is
> the only place that they can make a living.  Few care about what an ameuteur
> philosopher of biblical scholar has to say.
> >
> > 3) Except for Heidegger, whose personal behavior can be characterized
> > as an ass kissing Nazi—he joined the Nazi party in 1932 or 1933—who
> > dismissed all the Jewish faculty in his department at the university,
> there
> > was no philosopher of note who I know who taught at a university;
>
> You forgot about Plato and Aristotle.
>
> >
> > 4) My sister who teaches at SUNY tells me that University life is full
> > of Byzantine politics;
>
> I believe it but at least in theory they care about knowledge. I'm nothing
> more than a battery to Corporate America.  Corporations have allot of
> politics too. That is part of the human situation.
> >
> > 5) The man with the best mind, Henry Lortz, gave up tenure track in
> > mathematics to work for Boeing. My hobby has been learning European
> > languages—he studied Japanese. His grasp of mathematics and the ability to
> > teach it was unsurpassed. But he just could not stomach the politics and
> low
> > pay at University of Washington. He was one of the top bridge players in
> the
> > world. He won a lot of tournaments…
>
> Yeah but he still had something else that he was really good at. I don't. I
> can do other stuff but I want badly to be good at what I do and have others
> appreciate that.
> >
> > 6) How many full time faculty have you talked to about the life at a
> > University. Most of them when they advise a student on the dissertations,
> > steal the student's ideas and publish them either on their own or register
> > themselves as the first authors. A filthy bunch of pigs.
>
> I have insufficient data on thesis theft.  I do know that one of my best
> professor friends hated the politics.. at least in theory.. since he had his
> own agenda.
>
> Why do you think there is so much  politics?
>
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > Most major universities have programs in biblical studies. Um well..
> > intellectual value there was more than my recent jobs. I learned a good
> deal
> > about history and how culture and language evolves. Fascinating shit my
> > friend. Gunars, I don't believe the bible is the divine word of any deity.
> > If I could find something else I was as good at I might agree with you.
> But
> > I'm not near as good at my current pursuits. I really wanted to be kick
> ass
> > at what I do. I have also had a hard time becoming as interested as I was
> > before.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gunars answer:
> >
> > If you really are that interested in the topic, why don't you write a good
> > book on it without the fricken degree. If it fascinates you, do what I
> did.
> > I studied stuttering problem on the side. And at the end of the life I am
> > going to publish, what I believe will be a seminal work in stuttering
> > therapy. So spend an hour a day at it, if you really, really love it. But
> I
> > fear you only want to be admired by other people. Just like some movie
> > starlet. Re-read Ellis Irrational idea #1. As a homework, at least tell me
> > what it is and what you think of it and the arguments Ellis gives for it
> > being irrational. If you want to be a scholar, you better re-start acting
> > like one. I know you were a scholar once, now use that talent to
> understand
> > REBT:-). Surely you can be a scholar in more than one area, eh? :-)
> >
>  Ah I'm not sure that I can Gunars, I'm a fuckin hack.  I try really hard
> but shit doesn't really work out for me. I like REBT I'm working on that.
> But I feel very down when I think that I might not be able to get a good job
> and be good at it. That I'm just good at non pragmatic stuff and apparently
> not even smart enough to get that gig.
>
> As far as writing a book I would love to and actually started one (its on
> the backburner) right  now but I'm thinking over ideas.
>
> I'm thinking about writing one call Suffering without God drawing on my
> experiences with my own medical struggles and how we can face suffering
> without a God to cry out to and how belief in God can make suffering worse.
>
> Also I thinkint about writing one aimed at young people that are doubting
> their faith but have allot of guilt about it.   Something like Losing the
> Faith: A How to Guide.
>
> But you know that no one will listen to me without a damn doctorate.
>
> If that were not true then why did you need to do a second doctorate rather
> than just publishing your work on your own?
>
>
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately Logical positivism has been largely discredited for a number
> > of reasons. Almost no one believes that anymore.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gunars answer:
> >
> > This is one time where I was not very exact at my answer and hip-shooting.
> > What I really meant was not only the basic "logical positivism", but how
> it
> > was adapted by critiques which you can read in Wikipedia on "Logical
> > positivism". My answer was a first order one. See below:
> >
> > Logical positivism (also called logical empiricism and neo-positivism) is
> a
> > school of philosophy that combines empiricism
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism> , the idea that observational
> > evidence is indispensable for knowledge of the world, with a version of
> > rationalism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism> incorporating
> > mathematical and logico-linguistic constructs and deductions in
> epistemology
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology> .
> >
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism#cite_note-name-0#cite_note-
> > name-0> [1]
> >
> > Logical positivism grew from the discussions of a group called the "First
> > Vienna Circle" which gathered at the Café
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Central> Central before World War
> > I. After the war Hans Hahn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Hahn> , a
> > member of that early group, helped bring Moritz
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moritz_Schlick> Schlick to Vienna. Schlick's
> > Vienna Circle <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Circle> , along with
> Hans
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reichenbach> Reichenbach's Berlin
> Circle
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Circle_(philosophy)> , propagated the
> > new doctrines more widely in the 1920s and early 1930s. It was Otto
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Neurath> Neurath's advocacy that made
> > the movement self-conscious and more widely known. A 1929 pamphlet written
> > by Neurath, Hahn, and Rudolf <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Carnap>
> > Carnap summarized the doctrines of the Vienna Circle at that time. These
> > included: the opposition to all metaphysics
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics> , especially ontology
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology> and synthetic a priori
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_a_priori> propositions; the
> > rejection of metaphysics not as wrong but as having no meaning; a
> criterion
> > of meaning based on Ludwig Wittgenstein
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein> 's early work; the idea
> > that all knowledge should be codifiable in a single standard language of
> > science; and above all the project of "rational reconstruction", in which
> > ordinary-language concepts were gradually to be replaced by more precise
> > equivalents in that standard language. In the early 1930s, the Vienna
> Circle
> > dispersed, mainly because of political upheaval and the untimely deaths of
> > Hahn and Schlick. The most prominent proponents of logical positivism
> > emigrated to United Kingdom and United States, where they considerably
> > influenced American philosophy. Until the 1950s, logical positivism was
> the
> > leading school in the philosophy of science. During this period of
> upheaval,
> > Carnap proposed a replacement for the earlier doctrines in his "Logical
> > Syntax of Language". This change of direction and the somewhat differing
> > views of Reichenbach and others led to a consensus that the English name
> for
> > the shared doctrinal platform, in its American exile from the late 1930s,
> > should be "logical empiricism".
> >
> > I guess that not having read Wittgenstein myself, I am relying on my gut
> > feel. And I do not intend to spend time defending what I call the
> esoterica
> > of philosophy of science. What I should have said is that I generally
> agree
> > with the evolving philosophy based on logical positivism.
> >
> > As for nobody believing it—it is the sign of the times—many philosophers
> > believe in postmodernism, which I consider a bunch of shit. But again, I
> am
> > not going to take time and refute it point by point. What I believe is
> that
> > there is some reality out there and some means to validate it by empirical
> > methods. No fricken esoterica for me. Don't have time in this world. Come
> > to think of it, maybe Wittgenstein was also in academia.
>
> You know lets discuss logical positivism and philosophy of science at
> another juncture. I would love to do so with you but even I admit that it is
> a bit removed from my present concerns.
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > But if I bag that shit it shows that I'm a failure and that I didn't
> really
> > have what it takes. Plus, what the hell. I spent allot of time learning
> > this shit. I would like to utilize part of my education somehow.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gunars answer:
> >
> >
> >
> > How does bagging it make you a failure. Use your best philosophy of
> science
> > knowledge and prove it to me.
>
> It makes me feel like a god damn failure. My old roommate is a damn
> professor now, of course at an Evangelical school which I would not like,
> but he fucking made it.
>
> My other old college friend went to Princeton for graduate school.  I'm
> doing squat.. chatting about Greek at the bar. What the hell?  I threw
> myself into that project and it didn't pan out.. and I was damn good at that
> stuff too.
>
> It says something about my lack of intelligence and lack of perseverance,
> Gunars. There is empirical evidence that I lack essential traits for
> success.
>
>
> > As for using your education, if you would read "Borrowed Brilliance" by
> > David Kord Murray, and stop whining :-), maybe you could come up with a
> > creative way how to use it.
>
> Man get off your ass and use that brain of
> > yours. :-) I really think that there is a way of using your education to
> > synthesize/create a unique answer. But if you are unwilling to learn—a
> hell
> > of a stance for a scholar—but are just invested in whining, shit won't
> > magically happen. How much time, by the way, are you spending on Borrowed
> > Brilliance. I would really like your answer on this item.
>
> I am reading it! I'm a quarter of the way through. I'm reading about Darwin.
> My areas of expertise seem far removed from business or anything practical.
> I can't see how to pull things together at this point. I also have classwork
> so I have to prioritize.
>
> >
> > Andrew wrote:
> >
> > I want to debunk that shit. Haven't you listened when I have said over and
> > over I'm an atheist now.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gunars answer:
> >
> > Again I invite you to be a real scholar. Read the many books where
> religion
> > is debunked say Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Dawkins (I think this is a
> > current book) and do an Amazon or Google search. Then see if there is a
> > space or a place where you can do a better job than they did. For me it is
> > so fricken obvious, and so many people have written about it, that it
> would
> > take a lot of organized effort (a la "Borrowed Brilliance") to find a
> place
> > in the pantheon of atheists. But start out on it. However, remember that
> you
> > have to eat. You need a profession. Mine was an electrical engineer. I
> > also—just like you—need to prioritize. This philosophizing on REBT-CBT
> FORUM
> > with you has helped me to see my own weaknesses. But this bullshitting
> > without action, eventually has to stop—on my part, at least.
> >
> Dawkins doesn't have the biblical nor philosophical background knowledge
> that I do. That said I like him even when he over simplifies.  But yes I got
> to eat.. so.. that's why I'm working to try to bring this MIS thing to
> fruition.
> >
> > Concluding statement: You have to write a Strategic Life Plan, like I did.
> > Then you have to start setting goals and subgoals. I believe that reading
> > "Borrowed Brilliance" could get you to where you can do your thing.
> >
> Indeed I will finish it in due time. Patience.. my friend.
>
> > You wrote: Write controversial books and maybe someday make the $5,000 a
> pop
> > for speaking engagements like my boy Bart Erhman does.
> > :
> >
> > Gunars answer: I don't know the dude, but study how he got where he is and
> > maybe you can do shit like that also. Study all the people who are
> successes
> > in your field. But do it in a prioritized and do not scatter your focus.
> > Having this conversation has made me aware that I am pissing away my life
> > also, by not following my strategic plan more closely.
> >
> Hmm... went to Wheaton College as I did.. but then moved on to Princeton..
> crap..  Maybe I should just write my book and send it to him since he said
> he would read over it for me.
>
> I don't think you are pissing away your life man.. that seems like an over
> generalization. I envy you greatly. I'm getting allot out of our
> conversation.
> >
> >
> > "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> > pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
> >
> > Gunars
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Andrew
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 12:09 AM
> > To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Response to Gunars
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com, "Gunars Neiders, Ph.D."
> > neidersg@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew,
> > >
> > > See below
> > >
> > > I read The Bible cover to cover at the age of 13 even before I knew what
> > > Yale and Harvard scholars hypothesize from the scientific studies of for
> > > example, word frequencies, writing styles, papal council records,
> > > lost/discarded books of New Testament etc. and concluded that
> Christianity
> > > and Judaism (and by induction Muslim religion) is based on very flimsy
> > > evidence. I became an atheist on the spot. Epistemologically it just did
> > not
> > > hold up. So I turned into an atheist. However, if you were my client,
> > which
> > > you are not, I would not discuss the following with you. I would not
> have
> > > time to argue about the existence of non-existent gods, but would adapt
> my
> > > therapy based Hank Robb's pamphlet that can be from Albert Ellis
> institute
> > > about how to get better with the help of Christian bible and Nielsen's,
> > > Johnson, and Ellis book Counseling and Psychotherapy with Religious
> > Persons:
> > > A Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy Approach.
> >
> > Well I'm happy that you are not my therapist. Since the religious issue
> > would be a key one and you would be unable to address it.
> > >
> > > An honest question to a friend—which I think we have become in the
> > > REBT-CBT-FORUM: What is your fascination with graduate study in biblical
> > > studies? Do you think it is a divine book? Are you interested in
> > unearthing
> > > more about the diverse authors of the bible? Are you going to make a
> list
> > of
> > > all the other Gospel's that were tossed out by the various popes and
> Papal
> > > Councils? Or are you just translating freak from Hebrew and Greek to
> > modern
> > > English. I believe that King James version is about as good as it gets.
> > > There was at least one modern version, but I have not seen it succeed.
> > >
> > Ha! the King James version... um.. based on poor manuscripts. Well first I
> > love the languages more than the text itself. Something about being able
> > to read a text few can turns me on. As someone hurt by a religion I could
> > see a potential "purpose" in refuting the damn thing. Really what the hell
> > else am I going to do with the knowledge I worked hard to gain? I feel
> like
> > a failure if I don't utilize the knowledge I tried so hard to learn.
> >
> > Honestly, Gunars, my fascination is more with the idea of teaching at a
> > college and knowledge in general. I could probably be content doing such
> in
> > a number of fields as long as I was good a them. I see it as such a noble
> > and purposeful calling rather than just taking orders from the man.
> > >
> > > What major universities have "graduate studies in biblical study"? So
> you
> > > got "A's" in it. Gave you a lot of positive feedback. Does it have more
> > > meaning than being good at tiddly-winks: Not many jobs in it. And of no
> > > fricken intellectual value. If I were you I would be happy to have
> > forsaken
> > > the god forsaken topic and move on to something in life that at least
> can
> > > earn you a living.
> >
> > Most major universities have programs in biblical studies. Um well..
> > intellectual value there was more than my recent jobs. I learned a good
> deal
> > about history and how culture and language evolves. Fascinating shit my
> > friend. Gunars, I don't believe the bible is the divine word of any deity.
> > If I could find something else I was as good at I might agree with you.
> But
> > I'm not near as good at my current pursuits. I really wanted to be kick
> ass
> > at what I do. I have also had a hard time becoming as interested as I was
> > before.
> > >
> > > There was a golden era in philosophy: Karl Popper, et al. They really
> > > thought about thinking and epistemology. I guess I believe in logical
> > > positivism.
> >
> > Unfortunately Logical positivism has been largely discredited for a number
> > of reasons. Almost no one believes that anymore.
> >
> > On the other hand Heidegger, in my opinion with his
> > > philosophical foundations for post-modernism was just a bullshitter. I
> > think
> > > that, as the current discussion and books argue that his Nazi past has
> > > soiled his thinking may also well be true. But at least we can
> > intelligently
> > > talk about the topic. To me the opinions of Nietzsche and novels of
> Camus
> > > are also worth reading. Once. But there are many people who are
> interested
> > > in basics and history of philosophy, and if you have a mind for playing
> > mind
> > > games, you have a probability of getting a low paid job (really low paid
> > > job) as part time instructor and devote your time to it. Just like some
> > > people play bridge or chess.
> > >
> > Shit Gunars, if I was as kick ass as you are at computer shit. I would
> play
> > chess on the side.. by getting a masters in Philosophy and doing a little
> > adjunct work. I wish I could get interested in something that pays more
> > money. I'm having trouble here. I care so much about ideas and less about
> > particulars.
> >
> > > In a nutshell unless your church wants to pick and choose passages from
> > > bible to fight against abortion rights, universal health care, start
> wars
> > > against other religions and they a priori promise you a job after you
> are
> > > done with graduate studies in the Christian bible (you will never
> surpass
> > > the Talmudian scholars because they start at an early age), I would just
> > bag
> > > that shit. So cares if you are good at tiddly-winks. :-)
> >
> > Gunars, I learned to chant the Torah at a synagogue and I have a copy of
> the
> > Mishna on my bookshelf. Yes the Talmudic scholars are impressive. The
> > agricultural law is a bit boring though honestly. But if I bag that shit
> it
> > shows that I'm a failure and that I didn't really have what it takes.
> Plus,
> > what the hell. I spent allot of time learning this shit. I would like to
> > utilize part of my education somehow.
> > >
> > > By the way, what school did you attend to study bible? Did you research
> > how
> > > many of their graduates have jobs? One of my close acquaintances—I can't
> > > call him a friend because I cannot talk to him honestly, he would freak
> > > out—when to Theology Department in University of Latvia (Lutheran
> > dominated
> > > department) in order to become an ordained minister. Is that what you
> want
> > > to be?
> >
> > Hell no! Gunars, I don't want to be a god damn minister. I want to debunk
> > that shit. Haven't you listened when I have said over and over I'm an
> > atheist now.
> >
> > > Andrew, answer only if you want to. It will not change our relationship.
> > In
> > > this one area, this area of religion, I consider you to be as full of
> shit
> > > as a Christmas turkey. :-) But we can still be friends and correspond
> > about
> > > other things.
> >
> > I hope you mean a cleaned and prepared Christmas Turkey. Its not just
> about
> > biblical studies. Its about doing something I feel I'm good at. If I could
> > find something else I'm good at then it would easier to just dabble in
> this
> > on the side. It's also that I feel so god damn at home on a college
> campus.
> > I feel like I was "meant" to be there engaged with ideas and teaching.
> Beats
> > working for the man (corporate america) which doesn't give a shit about
> his
> > workers or ideas.
> >
> > > On the other hand when I read Ellis and Harper's first edition of The
> > guide
> > > to rational living in 1966, I was enthralled. Since then I have read all
> > the
> > > books by Albert Ellis. Not that I agree with him on everything he wrote,
> > but
> > > I could take real knowledge away from his books. He still makes sense to
> > me,
> > > unlike the bible where you can pick and chose different passages and
> > > interpret them in any way you choose. That is why we have had so many
> > > Christian denominations and wars between the various factions, like the
> > > vicious one in Northern Ireland where brother against brother were
> > murdering
> > > each other in the name of a non-existent god.
> >
> > Gunars, I like Ellis and I like philosophy for this reason. I can utilize
> it
> > to live a better life. I just read Elliot Cohen's What Would Aristotle Do?
> > and found it a good read. I have grown to like psychology now as well. I
> > once thought it was just bullshit because of Freud.
> >
> > > Now we have another war of Muslims against Christians. And political
> fight
> > > inside of United States where the Christian Right is against those of us
> > who
> > > believe in Christ's philosophy, "Love their neighbor as thyself" and
> > giving
> > > at least children some health insurance so they would not die or be
> > crippled
> > > unnecessarily.
> >
> > Even when I was a Christian I thought Jesus was more of a socialist. I
> > never bought into that Christian Right crap.
> > >
> > > But, Andrew, your good has given to you, you think, a freedom to make
> your
> > > choices. If you really want to feel miserable about not becoming a
> scholar
> > > of a useless book, go ahead. Free will, as a philosophical concept, is
> > still
> > > very slippery. Can we really have free will, if our genetic make-up
> > provides
> > > tendency toward how we feel, think, act and perceive and our experiences
> > > "express our genes"—encourage or discourage us to act, feel, and think
> as
> > we
> > > are genetically predisposed to. And then there is classical and
> > instrumental
> > > conditioning…
> > >
> > Yes we can have free will I'm a compatibilist. Different debate for
> another
> > day. That useless book has profoundly influenced our culture. I could work
> > against that trend. Write controversial books and maybe someday make the
> > $5,000 a pop for speaking engagements like my boy Bart Erhman does.
> > >
> > > "Time to admit my mortality and put health as my priority! Can't have
> > > pleasure tomorrow, if I am not around tomorrow! :-)"
> > >
> > > Gunars
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of Andrew
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:03 PM
> > > To: REBT-CBT-FORUM@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [REBT-CBT-FORUM] Re: Homework Andrew 2009/11/10
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rex, thanks for your suggestions. I found the story helpful. Nice to
> know
> > > that other people besides me face crazy confusing stuff sometimes. Not
> > > moving to China but may end up moving to another state. May also go
> broke
> > > remains to be seen.
> > >
> > > 1.Today, I enjoyed crepes and Earl Grey tea for lunch. I am also
> > > appreciating all the assistance Rex, Gunars, and Will have given me as I
> > > work through things.
> > >
> > > 2. Since I have given up on externally created meaning of life, I
> > > created some meaning by listening to more epistemology while cleaning up
> > the
> > > house.
> > >
> > > 3. What I accomplished: dishes, cleaned the house, worked on Stats
> > project,
> > > did exercises, meditated.
> > >
> > > 4. What I found difficult: Intense self hate for not turning back to
> > > graduate study in biblical studies now that I'm feeling better
> physically.
> > > Intense self hate for failing at my most important goal of becoming a
> > > professor. Also Car breaking down and $600 bill.
> > >
> > > 5. A current life goal of mine is to learn to play more songs from
> memory.
> > > Did so by practicing guitar a half hour.
> > >
> > > 6. My plan for tomorrow is to continue my Stats project, study Java, do
> > yoga
> > > stretches and apply to a few jobs.
> > >
> >
>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20091114/wl_mcclatchy/3356567