Rabbit_Genetics : Messages : 10873-10902 of 11171

Thanks Patsy, I cannot seem to get those two colors to stick in my head. Drives me crazy.

How is the broken project going?

Pam W.
Redneck Rabbits Rabbitry
http://redneckrabbits.tripod.com/
Rabbit Relay
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rabbitrelay/
Transporting bunnies, one trip at a time.
Cross Stitching Since "09"
Shawnee, OK

In a message dated 11/10/2009 9:41:39 A.M. Central Standard Time, senecapriderabbitry2004@... writes:

I do believe a Frosty is the lower end of the spectrum of agouti below cream. And Frosted Pearl is low end of color spectrum of Smoke Pearl.

Patsy Brooks

SENECA PRIDE RABBITRY

Northeast Regional Lionhead Rabbit Club

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Pwatersb@aol.com <Pwatersb@aol.com> wrote:

From: Pwatersb@aol.com <Pwatersb@aol.com>
Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Frosty or Frosted Pearl
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:50 AM

Okay, I am sorry if this is an easy question and I keep having a hard time with a few colors. Can anyone please explain the difference between a Frosty and a Frosted Pearl. If I can remember correct one is an agouti based but what about the other?

Pam W.
Redneck Rabbits Rabbitry
http://redneckrabbi ts.tripod. com/
Rabbit Relay
http://pets. groups.yahoo. com/group/ rabbitrelay/
Transporting bunnies, one trip at a time.
Cross Stitching Since "09"
Shawnee, OK

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (46)

#10901

From: Patsy Brooks <senecapriderabbitry2004@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: Frosty or Frosted Pearl

senecaprider...

Offline

I do believe a Frosty is the lower end of the spectrum of agouti below cream. And Frosted Pearl is low end of color spectrum of Smoke Pearl.

Patsy Brooks

SENECA PRIDE RABBITRY

Northeast Regional Lionhead Rabbit Club

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Pwatersb@... <Pwatersb@...> wrote:

From: Pwatersb@... <Pwatersb@...>
Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Frosty or Frosted Pearl
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 9:50 AM

Okay, I am sorry if this is an easy question and I keep having a hard time with a few colors. Can anyone please explain the difference between a Frosty and a Frosted Pearl. If I can remember correct one is an agouti based but what about the other?

Pam W.
Redneck Rabbits Rabbitry
http://redneckrabbi ts.tripod. com/
Rabbit Relay
http://pets. groups.yahoo. com/group/ rabbitrelay/
Transporting bunnies, one trip at a time.
Cross Stitching Since "09"
Shawnee, OK

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (46)

#10900

From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: free/limit/restricted feeding was Culling

lilysrabbitry

Offline

Natalie, :-)

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to feel dumb here... as with any and all of these threads, it is simply to discuss and/or inform others as to what our individual observations and/or practices might be. As we seem to all agree... we do what works best for ourselves and our rabbits... there is no real right or wrong, correct or incorrect, (unless, of course, rabbits are suffering from malnutrition).

It certainly was not my intention to upset you (I assume that you were referring to my response to yours, since I am the one who specifically defended how I feed/raise my small breeds of rabbits) and as hard as I try to be diplomatic in my wording, I have no doubt that any written word can still be misconstrued. I was only trying to offer some different observations from what you 'always thought' about free feeding and small breeds of rabbits. One saying that I repeat often is, "You don't know what you don't know"... again, I was only trying to inform you of what works for me and my rabbits and offer some insight into a side of things that you may not be familiar with. LOL I have to laugh because when this discussion comes up at rabbit shows, and I explain how I free feed my rabbits, it is I who more often than not comes away feeling like I've almost been ostracized by my practices (good thing that I'm not one to be too concerned about what others think about me! LOL)... many other breeders will literally roll their eyes and then be very clear in their instructions in telling me that "Mini Rex only need 1/2 cup of pellets a day, and Netherlands only need 1/4 cup!" Sure, that's all well and good and, truth be told, on average that's probably what my rabbits actually eat on a daily basis... being that the afore mentioned formula works for most rabbits, I still have no doubt that there are some rabbits who eat more than that ration, and there are some who eat less... I just choose to leave it up to the individual rabbit to make the choice for themselves. I really think that you are in the majority, Natalie, in your feeding practices... it is I who seems to be in the minority, at least amongst the breeders that I personally know anyway... but that's not going to get me to change what has personally worked for me for the past 35 years. Oh... just to add... I "don't just blindly dump food in the feeders"... I always make a mental note of how much the feed has gone down in the J hopper so I am sure that the rabbits are eating as they should be. Each and every Fall I have observed that everyone of my rabbits eats nearly twice the amount of pellet as usual (for about a week's time it seems)... I have always assumed that this was nature's way of getting the rabbits in condition for the upcoming winter cold... maybe 'adding an extra fatty layer' as the saying goes. Considering it gets to 25 below zero here (and that's not including the wind chill factor) I am happy to make these observations each Fall.

As sfishbone6 wrote:

sfishbone6@... wrote: "I have found that stock that is routinely given free feed will not go overweight. However, when stock is brought in from another breeder who is more strict on their feeding procedures, the newly introduced stock will over eat and gain weight. There are some small breeds that are so strict on their weights for show that people find it easier to control feed, while others will breed stock to fit the free feed program. Simply put, free feeders have to be more aware of their stock, while other breeders who control feed have to be more aware to the way they feed in regards to making show size and meeting that particular breeds standards."

My observations concerning my herd are, as you have also mentioned, in agreeance with what Gina has said... just her opposing rationale. I will say that the two MR rabbits that I had spoken of in an earlier post (brought in from another breeder as small sized Srs) probably had restricted feed and once they arrived at my rabbitry they were able to grow to their full genetic size... neither one of them became fat... on the contrary, they added length to their bodies and overall size. They both ended up weighing in at over 4 1/2 lbs but were nice and lean with great coats and flesh condition... I am just of the belief that this is what their true genetic size should have been to begin with (ironically, when I later received copies of their pedigrees, their dam had been given the name 'Big Mamma'... hmmm...a point to ponder... LOL!)

Speaking of feeding... I had better get my butt in gear and go do just that! LOL

Sue :-)

Natalie Shobe wrote:

Thanks Gina. I was starting to feel like I was the dumb one on here for control/limit feeding my rabbits. To be quite frank, it was upsetting me because what I thought was correct for small breeds was said to be wrong. (?... I never said that 'you were wrong') I was kind of frustrated with it. The way I feed my rabbits has worked out just fine. The small rabbits are small and the large rabbits are large. The way I feed doesn't affect their growth much if it does affect it at all. I mean, I still get rabbits in my litters that are large and still get rabbits that are small from birth. I can't control that. LOL! They just grow that way. Most other breeders I know limit feed their rabbits. They don't just blindly dump food in the feeders. Most of the breeder I know give their rabbits a certain amount each day unless they are too fat or too thin. I know just by watching my own rabbits that they can't have anymore food than I give them because they blow up like a balloon and instead of having nice well conditioned flesh on my rabbits, I get flab everywhere. Now, I don't own a huge rabbitry or anything. However, my rabbits live outside. They don't live in a nice indoor rabbitry. They live outdoors in hutches and in 2 sheds which are open to the outside. We have wild animals. Scavengers that would love free meals. I can just imagine free feeding my rabbits only to be free feeding the whole community of wild animals. LOL! I would loose tons of food. Plus, during the winter it is wet all the time around here, half the food would get wet and soggy. :(

Anyway, glad to hear that somebody else on here limit feeds their rabbits too. I do give my rabbit hay with there feed everyday so they have something more to nibbling on after they eat all of their feed. My rabbits are nice an fat. I can't imagine what they would look like if I suddenly started free feeding. It would be a nightmare I don't want to think about.

Natalie

#10899

From: Pwatersb@...
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:50 am
Subject: Frosty or Frosted Pearl

redneckrabbits

Offline

Okay, I am sorry if this is an easy question and I keep having a hard time with a few colors. Can anyone please explain the difference between a Frosty and a Frosted Pearl. If I can remember correct one is an agouti based but what about the other?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (46)

#10898

From: sfishbone6@...
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:21 pm
Subject: Re: Culling

lakehopehorses

Offline

Well said Pam!

Gina~

-----Original Message-----
From: Pwatersb@...
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 8:52 am
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

I measure feed mine as well. I have some I give a little more too or some a little less, depends on the rabbit. I think everyone should do what is best for their stock. You should always know your stock. That makes everything so much easier. From breeding, feeding, noticing illness, it is so, so much easier when you know your stock.

Pam W.

#10897

From: Pwatersb@...
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:52 am
Subject: Re: Culling

redneckrabbits

Offline

In a message dated 11/10/2009 12:54:11 A.M. Central Standard Time, snobunny22789@... writes:

Thanks Gina. I was starting to feel like I was the dumb one on here for control/limit feeding my rabbits. To be quite frank, it was upsetting me because what I thought was correct for small breeds was said to be wrong. I was kind of frustrated with it. The way I feed my rabbits has worked out just fine. The small rabbits are small and the large rabbits are large. The way I feed doesn't affect their growth much if it does affect it at all. I mean, I still get rabbits in my litters that are large and still get rabbits that are small from birth. I can't control that. LOL! They just grow that way. Most other breeders I know limit feed their rabbits. They don't just blindly dump food in the feeders. Most of the breeder I know give their rabbits a certain amount each day unless they are too fat or too thin. I know just by watching my own rabbits that they can't have anymore food than I give them because they blow up like a balloon and instead of having nice well conditioned flesh on my rabbits, I get flab everywhere. Now, I don't own a huge rabbitry or anything. However, my rabbits live outside. They don't live in a nice indoor rabbitry. They live outdoors in hutches and in 2 sheds which are open to the outside. We have wild animals. Scavengers that would love free meals. I can just imagine free feeding my rabbits only to be free feeding the whole community of wild animals. LOL! I would loose tons of food. Plus, during the winter it is wet all the time around here, half the food would get wet and soggy. :(

Anyway, glad to hear that somebody else on here limit feeds their rabbits too. I do give my rabbit hay with there feed everyday so they have something more to nibbling on after they eat all of their feed. My rabbits are nice an fat. I can't imagine what they would look like if I suddenly started free feeding. It would be a nightmare I don't want to think about.

Natalie

From: "sfishbone6@aol.com" <sfishbone6@aol.com>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:05:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

I have found that stock that is routinely given free feed will not go overweight. However, when stock is brought in from another breeder who is more strict on their feeding procedures, the newly introduced stock will over eat and gain weight. There are some small breeds that are so strict on their weights for show that people find it easier to control feed, while others will breed stock to fit the free feed program. Simply put, free feeders have to be more aware of their stock, while other breeders who control feed have to be more aware to the way they feed in regards to making show size and meeting that particular breeds standards.

I have tried both ways. I did prefer to breed so that they could eat free feed, but here in Florida I found the humidity made that impossible. I was finding swollen feed and even moldy feed in the j feeders within a day or two. I had to switch to controlled feeding twice a day. I actually found that I was wasting a lot less money this way, my rabbits did better with their weight gains, and since I have a large amount of rabbits, any saving money helped a lot! I had used the controlled feeding program when I was raising meat rabbits commercially, but I used the free feeding once I started to focus more on pet and show stock. But now I have come full circle and have gone back to controlled feeding. I could never have been able to afford free feeding with a commercial rabbitry.

It all rides on each breeder/owner' s preference, but it is always good to make sure new buyers are aware of your feeding practice. To put a controlled fed rabbit on all you can eat can cause eveything from upset stomach to obesity. Now note...I said CAN and not WILL.

There have been arguments in the past with breeders about the free feeding causing stock not to get fat but it causing the stock to go overweight for their breed. To some extent that is true but the animal must first have the genetics to be able to get over sized for the breed. Some breeders use control feeding to "make the weight" I have a friend who just decided to get into a small breed. She spent good money on the stock and was told to only give them 1/4 cup twice a day. In my opinion the stock was under condition due to lack of feed. But she said she has to for them to make weight. This is a bad reason for controlled feeding instead of free feeding. Good breeding supercedes controlled feeding anyday if trying to make a special breeds class.

But that said...controlled feeding does have its place in the right places. Large rabbitries will run more economical, you can get a better idea of how the rabbit is eating before it may be too late. Every breeder is an individual just like every rabbit is an individual. You may find one rabbit on controlled feeding is still overweight, and you may find a free feeder underweight! lol

Gina~

-----Original Message-----
From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@ tds.net>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Natalie Shobe wrote:

"Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable."

> I raise only small breeds of rabbits (Netherland Dwarf, Mini Rex, Lionheads, Holland Lops, Micro Rex & Velvet Lions) and being fat certainly has not been an issue. All are healthy and robust, active rabbits. Pregnancy and kindling has not been an issue either... quite the contrary... the problem that I can sometimes have is too many kits per litter (this is not a problem for the Does themselves, it is just a problem for me at weaning time when I have more baby rabbits than I have cage space). On average my Netherlands kindle between 4 - 6 kits... even my tiniest 2 lb BEW Brood Doe averages 4 - 5 kits. My Mini Rex average 7 - 8 kits per litter, but I have a few MR Does who kindle 9 - 10 healthy kits every time. One of my best 2 1/2 lb Micro Rex Does had a litter of 8 this past summer (she usually has only 7, but no peanuts because she doesn't carry the dwarf gene)... most of my Micro Does average 4 - 6 like the Netherlands. I absolutely agree that fat rabbits are not healthy rabbits (or any mammal, humans included, for that matter), and that they certainly could have kindling complications or have issue with conception as well if they were at an unhealthy weight.

> Except for the young juniors and pregnant/nursing Does (who I will always continue to free feed), I would not free feed my rabbits if they began to put on the pounds... but... for the 35+ years that I have been raising rabbits they have always been free fed (J hoppers kept full and topped off daily), fresh water, hay once or twice a week, and an occasional carrot when I am training them (tricks, agility, etc.) I have had one overweight (but not what I would call fat) Buck to date, and that's among thousands of rabbits bred and raised over the years. I have found that they eat what they need and only nibble occasionally. .. at dawn and dusk I hear the chorus of them all drinking from their water bottles and that is when they are usually nibbling the most.

"Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis."

> The only 'flab' that I have found on a couple of my rabbits over the years is the 'liquid filled' feeling pockets that forms on the elbows and knees of those Does who are absorbing their litters (at least this is what I have theorized it to be... one day I palpate and feel kits... a few days, or even a week, later the doe has these liquid filled pockets on her elbows and knees and there are no more fetuses felt in the abdomen... within another week or so all the pockets are gone and the Doe is back into breeding condition)

"Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit."

> The one repeated comment made by judges as they evaluate my rabbits is, "Excellent flesh and condition".. . I even had one out of town judge come over to me after a show and ask how I got my rabbits in such good condition. Aside from the same diet of Blue Seal Bunny 16 for the past 35 years, the biggest difference between my rabbits and most breeders I know is that my rabbits are kept in huge outdoor hutches where they can exercise to their hearts content (an eight foot long hutch is six feet deep... it is divided into four separate spaces, each with its own wire bottomed run (4' long X 2' wide), its own enclosed wooden house (2' X 2'), and its own shelf (attached to the front wooden part of the house). The rabbits spend their days jumping up onto the shelf, hopping down off the shelf, hopping and doing binkies down the run, or just hanging out. I assume that it's like any well working metabolism.. . if you get proper exercise than you will eat when you are hungry and not gorge on food (out of boredom, or otherwise).

> This is just what has worked well for me and my rabbits and, by my choice to free feed, I feel assured that my rabbits will reach their full genetic size and potential so that I can better choose who to keep and who to cull... and if I sell you a Senior than you can also feel assured that what you see is what you get. Everyone must do what works for them, their own lifestyles, and their own rabbits.

Sue

Natalie Shobe wrote:

Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable. My rabbits would eat and eat till they die of being too fat if I let them. They don't have the same kind of metabolism as some of the larger non commercial breeds like English Lops that I have had in the past. I don't free feed my rabbits. My rabbits will still go over weight without free feeding if they are going to be genetically large. I feed most of my Mini Rex 1/2 a cup of food a day. I've never seen their growth being stunted. I have does that have gone over the the weight limit and bucks that have gotten larger. When they are babies and I haven't seperated them yet, I will free feed them. Once they are seperated at 6 weeks to 8 weeks max, I will then put them on a half of a cup a day. Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis. I've also had experience with commercial breeds. Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit. So, in my rabbitry, I am very careful. It is all about finding that balance with my rabbits. I don't want to underfeed them(will be obvious if they are a little bony), or over feed them. Right now, I have a smaller Mini Rex doe. This doe was fed a half of a cup up until she was 4 months old. Around that time, I started seeing tons of flab around her shoulders. In my opinion, she was getting more than enough for growth. In fact, she was now getting too much. So I limited her food down to 1/3 of a cut after that. She was at a perfect flesh condition after that. Not thin but not flabby. This is how I opperate in my rabbitry. Each rabbit has their own food intake according to what they need to stay physically healthy. Once they hit their adult size, I know how much they will need to stay at a healthy physical weight. If I have a large rabbit that requires more food to stay at a healthy physical weight, I feed them more. I let the rabbit's size decide how much they need to stay healthy but I don't free feed.

Natalie

#10896

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:36 am
Subject: Re: Culling

schnupfi2001

Offline

Right,

Natalie don't feel bad :)

Marina

-------Original Message-------

From: Pamela Alley

Date: 11/10/09 08:18:49

Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

A quick reminder--Folks, please trim your posts! :)

*****************************

Natalie, you shouldn't feel alone--most rabbit folks I know feed a limited amount per day based on the animals' condition and needs. That's fine! :)

It's when feed is restricted beyond reasonable levels such that the rabbits cannot grow to their genetic potential that you run into problems, usually....

#10895

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:25 am
Subject: Re: self tri vs agouti tri vs tan pattern tri

schnupfi2001

Offline

Agreeing with you. Modifiers at work

-------Original Message-------

From: Barnes

Date: 11/10/09 05:06:49

Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] self tri vs agouti tri vs tan pattern tri

My observation is that this is often, but not always the case. I've had some eje tris that showed no tort shading at all. Again, I believe there are modifiers at work there.

- Sharon

WIth the self tri, they show torting if they have one ej gene; eje;
but if they are ejej they don't show the torting.

thats what i like to ratify ;-)

#10894

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:23 am
Subject: Re: Culling

schnupfi2001

Offline

I think with feeding only pellet food one has to be more careful. I feed best quality hay (herbs and other goodies) ad libitum. That means they feed free on it. I know personally each rabbit :) So, who will eat more and who less. Here in Europe we got some pretty baaaaad troubles with the high protein level due to the lucerne hay. Since I have fed rabbits in the US and here as well and never ever experienced multi-death due to feeding as it comes a long here, I envy the oversea breeders. I do not want to make an essay about the causes of European breeders throwing up to 90% of the youngs into the cadaver bin. But I am willing to lay my discoveries open if someone is interessted..funnily: I do not have the amount of death in the rabbitry. And I feed unlimited some cattle food which contains high protein food but no lucernes at all. (I remember the good old alfaalfa days in the US). So on does that should go to show, I go down on the feed because of them getting too fat, since the hay is high in natural protein already but high on structure as well.

The free feeding works for me only with the hay but not with the "power food" :)

Marina

-------Original Message-------

From: sfishbone6@...

Date: 11/10/09 06:06:54

Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

I have found that stock that is routinely given free feed will not go overweight. However, when stock is brought in from another breeder who is more strict on their feeding procedures, the newly introduced stock will over eat and gain weight. There are some small breeds that are so strict on their weights for show that people find it easier to control feed, while others will breed stock to fit the free feed program. Simply put, free feeders have to be more aware of their stock, while other breeders who control feed have to be more aware to the way they feed in regards to making show size and meeting that particular breeds standards.

I have tried both ways. I did prefer to breed so that they could eat free feed, but here in Florida I found the humidity made that impossible. I was finding swollen feed and even moldy feed in the j feeders within a day or two. I had to switch to controlled feeding twice a day. I actually found that I was wasting a lot less money this way, my rabbits did better with their weight gains, and since I have a large amount of rabbits, any saving money helped a lot! I had used the controlled feeding program when I was raising meat rabbits commercially, but I used the free feeding once I started to focus more on pet and show stock. But now I have come full circle and have gone back to controlled feeding. I could never have been able to afford free feeding with a commercial rabbitry.

It all rides on each breeder/owner's preference, but it is always good to make sure new buyers are aware of your feeding practice. To put a controlled fed rabbit on all you can eat can cause eveything from upset stomach to obesity. Now note...I said CAN and not WILL.

There have been arguments in the past with breeders about the free feeding causing stock not to get fat but it causing the stock to go overweight for their breed. To some extent that is true but the animal must first have the genetics to be able to get over sized for the breed. Some breeders use control feeding to "make the weight" I have a friend who just decided to get into a small breed. She spent good money on the stock and was told to only give them 1/4 cup twice a day. In my opinion the stock was under condition due to lack of feed. But she said she has to for them to make weight. This is a bad reason for controlled feeding instead of free feeding. Good breeding supercedes controlled feeding anyday if trying to make a special breeds class.

But that said...controlled feeding does have its place in the right places. Large rabbitries will run more economical, you can get a better idea of how the rabbit is eating before it may be too late. Every breeder is an individual just like every rabbit is an individual. You may find one rabbit on controlled feeding is still overweight, and you may find a free feeder underweight! lol

Gina~

-----Original Message-----
From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@tds.net>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Natalie Shobe wrote:

"Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable."

> I raise only small breeds of rabbits (Netherland Dwarf, Mini Rex, Lionheads, Holland Lops, Micro Rex & Velvet Lions) and being fat certainly has not been an issue. All are healthy and robust, active rabbits. Pregnancy and kindling has not been an issue either... quite the contrary... the problem that I can sometimes have is too many kits per litter (this is not a problem for the Does themselves, it is just a problem for me at weaning time when I have more baby rabbits than I have cage space). On average my Netherlands kindle between 4 - 6 kits... even my tiniest 2 lb BEW Brood Doe averages 4 - 5 kits. My Mini Rex average 7 - 8 kits per litter, but I have a few MR Does who kindle 9 - 10 healthy kits every time. One of my best 2 1/2 lb Micro Rex Does had a litter of 8 this past summer (she usually has only 7, but no peanuts because she doesn't carry the dwarf gene)... most of my Micro Does average 4 - 6 like the Netherlands. I absolutely agree that fat rabbits are not healthy rabbits (or any mammal, humans included, for that matter), and that they certainly could have kindling complications or have issue with conception as well if they were at an unhealthy weight.

> Except for the young juniors and pregnant/nursing Does (who I will always continue to free feed), I would not free feed my rabbits if they began to put on the pounds... but... for the 35+ years that I have been raising rabbits they have always been free fed (J hoppers kept full and topped off daily), fresh water, hay once or twice a week, and an occasional carrot when I am training them (tricks, agility, etc.) I have had one overweight (but not what I would call fat) Buck to date, and that's among thousands of rabbits bred and raised over the years. I have found that they eat what they need and only nibble occasionally... at dawn and dusk I hear the chorus of them all drinking from their water bottles and that is when they are usually nibbling the most.

"Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis."

> The only 'flab' that I have found on a couple of my rabbits over the years is the 'liquid filled' feeling pockets that forms on the elbows and knees of those Does who are absorbing their litters (at least this is what I have theorized it to be... one day I palpate and feel kits... a few days, or even a week, later the doe has these liquid filled pockets on her elbows and knees and there are no more fetuses felt in the abdomen... within another week or so all the pockets are gone and the Doe is back into breeding condition)

"Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit."

> The one repeated comment made by judges as they evaluate my rabbits is, "Excellent flesh and condition"... I even had one out of town judge come over to me after a show and ask how I got my rabbits in such good condition. Aside from the same diet of Blue Seal Bunny 16 for the past 35 years, the biggest difference between my rabbits and most breeders I know is that my rabbits are kept in huge outdoor hutches where they can exercise to their hearts content (an eight foot long hutch is six feet deep... it is divided into four separate spaces, each with its own wire bottomed run (4' long X 2' wide), its own enclosed wooden house (2' X 2'), and its own shelf (attached to the front wooden part of the house). The rabbits spend their days jumping up onto the shelf, hopping down off the shelf, hopping and doing binkies down the run, or just hanging out. I assume that it's like any well working metabolism... if you get proper exercise than you will eat when you are hungry and not gorge on food (out of boredom, or otherwise).

> This is just what has worked well for me and my rabbits and, by my choice to free feed, I feel assured that my rabbits will reach their full genetic size and potential so that I can better choose who to keep and who to cull... and if I sell you a Senior than you can also feel assured that what you see is what you get. Everyone must do what works for them, their own lifestyles, and their own rabbits.

Sue

Natalie Shobe wrote:

Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable. My rabbits would eat and eat till they die of being too fat if I let them. They don't have the same kind of metabolism as some of the larger non commercial breeds like English Lops that I have had in the past. I don't free feed my rabbits. My rabbits will still go over weight without free feeding if they are going to be genetically large. I feed most of my Mini Rex 1/2 a cup of food a day. I've never seen their growth being stunted. I have does that have gone over the the weight limit and bucks that have gotten larger. When they are babies and I haven't seperated them yet, I will free feed them. Once they are seperated at 6 weeks to 8 weeks max, I will then put them on a half of a cup a day. Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis. I've also had experience with commercial breeds. Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit. So, in my rabbitry, I am very careful. It is all about finding that balance with my rabbits. I don't want to underfeed them(will be obvious if they are a little bony), or over feed them. Right now, I have a smaller Mini Rex doe. This doe was fed a half of a cup up until she was 4 months old. Around that time, I started seeing tons of flab around her shoulders. In my opinion, she was getting more than enough for growth. In fact, she was now getting too much. So I limited her food down to 1/3 of a cut after that. She was at a perfect flesh condition after that. Not thin but not flabby. This is how I opperate in my rabbitry. Each rabbit has their own food intake according to what they need to stay physically healthy. Once they hit their adult size, I know how much they will need to stay at a healthy physical weight. If I have a large rabbit that requires more food to stay at a healthy physical weight, I feed them more. I let the rabbit's size decide how much they need to stay healthy but I don't free feed.

Natalie

#10893

From: "Pamela Alley" <rnrq@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:18 am
Subject: Re: Culling

rnrq

Offline

A quick reminder--Folks, please trim your posts! :)

*****************************

Natalie, you shouldn't feel alone--most rabbit folks I know feed a limited amount per day based on the animals' condition and needs. That's fine! :)

It's when feed is restricted beyond reasonable levels such that the rabbits cannot grow to their genetic potential that you run into problems, usually....

#10892

From: Natalie Shobe <snobunny22789@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:52 am
Subject: Re: Culling

snobunny22789

Offline

Thanks Gina. I was starting to feel like I was the dumb one on here for control/limit feeding my rabbits. To be quite frank, it was upsetting me because what I thought was correct for small breeds was said to be wrong. I was kind of frustrated with it. The way I feed my rabbits has worked out just fine. The small rabbits are small and the large rabbits are large. The way I feed doesn't affect their growth much if it does affect it at all. I mean, I still get rabbits in my litters that are large and still get rabbits that are small from birth. I can't control that. LOL! They just grow that way. Most other breeders I know limit feed their rabbits. They don't just blindly dump food in the feeders. Most of the breeder I know give their rabbits a certain amount each day unless they are too fat or too thin. I know just by watching my own rabbits that they can't have anymore food than I give them because they blow up like a balloon and instead of having nice well conditioned flesh on my rabbits, I get flab everywhere. Now, I don't own a huge rabbitry or anything. However, my rabbits live outside. They don't live in a nice indoor rabbitry. They live outdoors in hutches and in 2 sheds which are open to the outside. We have wild animals. Scavengers that would love free meals. I can just imagine free feeding my rabbits only to be free feeding the whole community of wild animals. LOL! I would loose tons of food. Plus, during the winter it is wet all the time around here, half the food would get wet and soggy. :(

Anyway, glad to hear that somebody else on here limit feeds their rabbits too. I do give my rabbit hay with there feed everyday so they have something more to nibbling on after they eat all of their feed. My rabbits are nice an fat. I can't imagine what they would look like if I suddenly started free feeding. It would be a nightmare I don't want to think about.

Natalie

From: "sfishbone6@..." <sfishbone6@...>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 9:05:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

It all rides on each breeder/owner' s preference, but it is always good to make sure new buyers are aware of your feeding practice. To put a controlled fed rabbit on all you can eat can cause eveything from upset stomach to obesity. Now note...I said CAN and not WILL.

Gina~

-----Original Message-----
From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@ tds.net>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Natalie Shobe wrote:

"Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable."

> I raise only small breeds of rabbits (Netherland Dwarf, Mini Rex, Lionheads, Holland Lops, Micro Rex & Velvet Lions) and being fat certainly has not been an issue. All are healthy and robust, active rabbits. Pregnancy and kindling has not been an issue either... quite the contrary... the problem that I can sometimes have is too many kits per litter (this is not a problem for the Does themselves, it is just a problem for me at weaning time when I have more baby rabbits than I have cage space). On average my Netherlands kindle between 4 - 6 kits... even my tiniest 2 lb BEW Brood Doe averages 4 - 5 kits. My Mini Rex average 7 - 8 kits per litter, but I have a few MR Does who kindle 9 - 10 healthy kits every time. One of my best 2 1/2 lb Micro Rex Does had a litter of 8 this past summer (she usually has only 7, but no peanuts because she doesn't carry the dwarf gene)... most of my Micro Does average 4 - 6 like the Netherlands. I absolutely agree that fat rabbits are not healthy rabbits (or any mammal, humans included, for that matter), and that they certainly could have kindling complications or have issue with conception as well if they were at an unhealthy weight.

> Except for the young juniors and pregnant/nursing Does (who I will always continue to free feed), I would not free feed my rabbits if they began to put on the pounds... but... for the 35+ years that I have been raising rabbits they have always been free fed (J hoppers kept full and topped off daily), fresh water, hay once or twice a week, and an occasional carrot when I am training them (tricks, agility, etc.) I have had one overweight (but not what I would call fat) Buck to date, and that's among thousands of rabbits bred and raised over the years. I have found that they eat what they need and only nibble occasionally. .. at dawn and dusk I hear the chorus of them all drinking from their water bottles and that is when they are usually nibbling the most.

"Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis."

> The only 'flab' that I have found on a couple of my rabbits over the years is the 'liquid filled' feeling pockets that forms on the elbows and knees of those Does who are absorbing their litters (at least this is what I have theorized it to be... one day I palpate and feel kits... a few days, or even a week, later the doe has these liquid filled pockets on her elbows and knees and there are no more fetuses felt in the abdomen... within another week or so all the pockets are gone and the Doe is back into breeding condition)

"Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit."

> The one repeated comment made by judges as they evaluate my rabbits is, "Excellent flesh and condition".. . I even had one out of town judge come over to me after a show and ask how I got my rabbits in such good condition. Aside from the same diet of Blue Seal Bunny 16 for the past 35 years, the biggest difference between my rabbits and most breeders I know is that my rabbits are kept in huge outdoor hutches where they can exercise to their hearts content (an eight foot long hutch is six feet deep... it is divided into four separate spaces, each with its own wire bottomed run (4' long X 2' wide), its own enclosed wooden house (2' X 2'), and its own shelf (attached to the front wooden part of the house). The rabbits spend their days jumping up onto the shelf, hopping down off the shelf, hopping and doing binkies down the run, or just hanging out. I assume that it's like any well working metabolism.. . if you get proper exercise than you will eat when you are hungry and not gorge on food (out of boredom, or otherwise).

> This is just what has worked well for me and my rabbits and, by my choice to free feed, I feel assured that my rabbits will reach their full genetic size and potential so that I can better choose who to keep and who to cull... and if I sell you a Senior than you can also feel assured that what you see is what you get. Everyone must do what works for them, their own lifestyles, and their own rabbits.

Sue

Natalie Shobe wrote:

Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable. My rabbits would eat and eat till they die of being too fat if I let them. They don't have the same kind of metabolism as some of the larger non commercial breeds like English Lops that I have had in the past. I don't free feed my rabbits. My rabbits will still go over weight without free feeding if they are going to be genetically large. I feed most of my Mini Rex 1/2 a cup of food a day. I've never seen their growth being stunted. I have does that have gone over the the weight limit and bucks that have gotten larger. When they are babies and I haven't seperated them yet, I will free feed them. Once they are seperated at 6 weeks to 8 weeks max, I will then put them on a half of a cup a day. Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis. I've also had experience with commercial breeds. Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit. So, in my rabbitry, I am very careful. It is all about finding that balance with my rabbits. I don't want to underfeed them(will be obvious if they are a little bony), or over feed them. Right now, I have a smaller Mini Rex doe. This doe was fed a half of a cup up until she was 4 months old. Around that time, I started seeing tons of flab around her shoulders. In my opinion, she was getting more than enough for growth. In fact, she was now getting too much. So I limited her food down to 1/3 of a cut after that. She was at a perfect flesh condition after that. Not thin but not flabby. This is how I opperate in my rabbitry. Each rabbit has their own food intake according to what they need to stay physically healthy. Once they hit their adult size, I know how much they will need to stay at a healthy physical weight. If I have a large rabbit that requires more food to stay at a healthy physical weight, I feed them more. I let the rabbit's size decide how much they need to stay healthy but I don't free feed.

Natalie

#10891

From: sfishbone6@...
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:05 am
Subject: Re: Culling

lakehopehorses

Offline

Gina~

-----Original Message-----
From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@...>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 9, 2009 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

#10890

From: Barnes <barnes@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Re: self tri vs agouti tri vs tan pattern tri

minirexmama

Offline

My observation is that this is often, but not always the case. I've had some eje tris that showed no tort shading at all. Again, I believe there are modifiers at work there.

- Sharon

WIth the self tri, they show torting if they have one ej gene; eje;
but if they are ejej they don't show the torting.

thats what i like to ratify ;-)

#10889

From: Barnes <barnes@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:00 am
Subject: Re: Tri ? in Mini Rex Rabbits

minirexmama

Offline

Certainly!  This tells you that the sire is an agouti-based tricolor.

- Sharon
> is this possible to get a broken castor from a Tri breeding?
> the mom of the br castor is a broken black but her mom is a tri,
> then the sire of the litter is a tri.... there is no castor in the lines.
>
>
> now i think i asked this already but i posted pics in the Broken Castor photo
album..
>
> thanks janessa
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#10888

From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@...>
Date: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:14 am
Subject: Re: Culling

lilysrabbitry

Offline

#10887

From: "windypines" <himi6@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 10:25 pm
Subject: Re: BLUE POINTS

himi6

Offline

--- In Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "Lance R" <detective_lance01@...> wrote:
>
> Guys, can you help me how to produce blue points in the offspring?
> What should be the color of the buck and doe?? Thank you.
>
000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Was this blue pts on a Himalayan?  You would need to breed the Blue into the
Black Himi.
richard
http://windypines.viviti.com

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#10886

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: Culling

schnupfi2001

Offline

That is how I wanted it to come out (darn second language writing). The fluffy ones will be bad..the sheep are the right ones. My daughter once said: Mom, look the have so much hair that is standing away like on young lambs..and she is right.

I am glad the pics came through. once MR are positioned European, they look so different!

MArina

-------Original Message-------

From: lilysrabbitry

Date: 11/09/09 15:55:56

Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

"Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense.."

I had first read this to say one should cull those that look like little sheep... but, in re-reading it, it sounds like you keep the little 'lamb' kits... is this correct? The reason I ask is because I find that the kits that have the most lamb like appearance end up being the ones with the best fur density.

I agree with what one (or maybe others) have mentioned and that's to keep a rabbit long enough to see what it will produce... even if it does have long ears or if it is genetically bigger. For example, I have a BEW MR buck who was DQ'd for long ears by one judge (as a Jr.) and earned a leg by a different judge a few months down the road (when I measure his ears they are exactly 3 1/2 inches so I can certainly see how it could go either way depending upon the judges measurement). This same buck topped out at 5 lbs as a Senior and the pet home I had set up for him fell through... as fate would have it, I was actually incredibly blessed by the fact that I inadvertently held onto him. I had a VM Doe who needed breeding and decided to do a test breeding with him (he has great fur)... boy have I been thankful that I did!! He has sired some of the best rabbits in my rabbitry, with multiple Grand Champion offspring to his credit. I can almost be guaranteed a competitive show rabbit to come from his loins... no matter which Doe I breed him to. He does not have summer ears (he was born here in New England in cold February), he just has big ears... BUT... in my test breedings with him I have found that he carries the 'small' gene (like the American Mini Lops) and not a 'dwarf' gene (I have never gotten peanuts from him... plus, if he had a dwarf gene in his makeup I truly don't believe he would be so big). This 'small' gene creates beautiful rabbits that are basically little clones of him... with the emphasis on 'little' as a high percentage of his offspring are between 3 - 4 lbs as seniors. Many of his show quality offspring barely even make 3 lbs as Seniors (I have one Sr. BEW Buck from him right now who has yet to hit the 3 lb mark) and they all have his wonderful plush, dense fur! (the one leg he earned at a show was given by a judge who was so impressed with his fur that he picked him up and held him above the crowd stating loudly, "Finally, a BEW with REAL Mini Rex fur!"

As a last thought... I find that free feeding will surely separate the true big boys and girls from those who have small genetics... as a matter of fact I free feed all of my rabbits just so that I will know their true genetics for senior size and weight ... as opposed to those that have limited feed and stay small only because of measured feeding. I once got a pair of BEW Mini Rex as Seniors because they were nice and small, both just 3 lbs (of course, as Seniors, they have supposedly reached their 'basic' full size)... come to find out they had been raised on measured feed and once they were free fed their true genetic size showed through... yup, you guessed it, they were both over 4 1/2 lbs when they finished filling out, and that wasn't because they were fat or overweight (they now had great flesh and condition, and were in proper proportion), no it was because they finally could grow to their full genetic size in length, etc. since they had enough nutrients to do so (and, no, I didn't worm them so that wasn't a factor in their small size). I would never had taken them home had it not been for their smaller size for BEWs at the time... that was a huge waste of cage space for the many months, but, it did help to reiterate my theories on free feeding and the positive side of it.

All that to say... get to know your lines and what your rabbits produce, keep them long enough to know if they tend to 'fill out at the shoulders' late, etc.... and... as Marina mentioned, it is important to listen to your gut instincts and not just the physical appearance/attributes as Juniors.

Sue

PS ... Yes, Marina, your photos did come through on my email

MARINA wrote:

Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense..

Let me know if this email comes through..it never shows on my account!!!

Marina

Austria

#10885

From: "Pamela Alley" <rnrq@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 8:09 pm
Subject: WAS culling, NOW feeding

rnrq

Offline

There's a difference between 'feeding to meet their needs (also known as 'limit feeding')', 'restricted feeding', and 'free feeding', and it's really important to know.

Free feeding is just that--the feeder is always full, they never run out, and can eat as they please.

Limit feeding is feeding JUST what they'll eat in a little less than 24 hours. It's no hardship, but they're eager to see you when feeding time rolls around, and hay is often given to them to fill in the time. This feeds to meet their actual needs, no shorting, no overage, with an empty feeder once a day for a short period.

Restricted feeding is feeding an amount which is less than that required to meet their needs, or which does so only marginally at best. Sometimes this is a fixed amount, other times it will vary, but the result is the same--the animal cannot grow to its full genetic potential and is artificially stunted. Occasionally animals on this regimen (usually the younger ones) will put on growth (called 'compensatory growth') once a complete diet is liberally available, but some can no longer do so and simply get fat.

Unless the animal is truly overweight/obese, restricted feeding is not a reasonable or ethical act and deceives only people--the rabbit still suffers by its deficient diet.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#10884

From: Natalie Shobe <snobunny22789@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 7:49 pm
Subject: Re: Culling

snobunny22789

Offline

Huh, I always thought free feeding was really bad for small breeds because they will put on tons of fat?. In my opinion, the smaller the size, the worse they put on fat. Physically over weight rabbits are not healthy rabbits. Does can have kindling complications and may eventually not be breedable. My rabbits would eat and eat till they die of being too fat if I let them. They don't have the same kind of metabolism as some of the larger non commercial breeds like English Lops that I have had in the past. I don't free feed my rabbits. My rabbits will still go over weight without free feeding if they are going to be genetically large. I feed most of my Mini Rex 1/2 a cup of food a day. I've never seen their growth being stunted. I have does that have gone over the the weight limit and bucks that have gotten larger. When they are babies and I haven't seperated them yet, I will free feed them. Once they are seperated at 6 weeks to 8 weeks max, I will then put them on a half of a cup a day. Sometimes, that is even too much for them if I start seeing fat pockets around their shoulders and flab around their shoulders and hips. A little is ok if they are young but a lot of flab means that they are getting too much food on a daily basis. I've also had experience with commercial breeds. Judges don't encourage flab/loose flesh on any breeds. Especially commercial. This is not a sign of good flesh condition. It is a sign of a fat flaby rabbit. So, in my rabbitry, I am very careful. It is all about finding that balance with my rabbits. I don't want to underfeed them(will be obvious if they are a little bony), or over feed them. Right now, I have a smaller Mini Rex doe. This doe was fed a half of a cup up until she was 4 months old. Around that time, I started seeing tons of flab around her shoulders. In my opinion, she was getting more than enough for growth. In fact, she was now getting too much. So I limited her food down to 1/3 of a cut after that. She was at a perfect flesh condition after that. Not thin but not flabby. This is how I opperate in my rabbitry. Each rabbit has their own food intake according to what they need to stay physically healthy. Once they hit their adult size, I know how much they will need to stay at a healthy physical weight. If I have a large rabbit that requires more food to stay at a healthy physical weight, I feed them more. I let the rabbit's size decide how much they need to stay healthy but I don't free feed.

I agree with sometimes keeping a rabbit longer even if other breeders think I am crazy. I like to wait sometimes on stock. For instance, I had a REW buck that I was going to cull as a junior because I thought he had really narrow shoulders. I waited for several more months on him and his shoulders filled out a lot. I bought this junior buck once that had huge ears but good type and fur. I knew he was going to be big and have even bigger ears. However, I still kept him. I decided to breed him once with a smaller doe with little ears. The litter that he produced was excellent quality. They all had good type, pretty good fur, they were all smaller than their dad and had small ears. Just goes to show you that sometimes an ugly duckling can be very useful or may mature to be good quality.

Natalie

From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@...>
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 6:55:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

"Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense.."

I had first read this to say one should cull those that look like little sheep... but, in re-reading it, it sounds like you keep the little 'lamb' kits... is this correct? The reason I ask is because I find that the kits that have the most lamb like appearance end up being the ones with the best fur density.

I agree with what one (or maybe others) have mentioned and that's to keep a rabbit long enough to see what it will produce... even if it does have long ears or if it is genetically bigger. For example, I have a BEW MR buck who was DQ'd for long ears by one judge (as a Jr.) and earned a leg by a different judge a few months down the road (when I measure his ears they are exactly 3 1/2 inches so I can certainly see how it could go either way depending upon the judges measurement) . This same buck topped out at 5 lbs as a Senior and the pet home I had set up for him fell through... as fate would have it, I was actually incredibly blessed by the fact that I inadvertently held onto him. I had a VM Doe who needed breeding and decided to do a test breeding with him (he has great fur)... boy have I been thankful that I did!! He has sired some of the best rabbits in my rabbitry, with multiple Grand Champion offspring to his credit. I can almost be guaranteed a competitive show rabbit to come from his loins... no matter which Doe I breed him to. He does not have summer ears (he was born here in New England in cold February), he just has big ears... BUT... in my test breedings with him I have found that he carries the 'small' gene (like the American Mini Lops) and not a 'dwarf' gene (I have never gotten peanuts from him... plus, if he had a dwarf gene in his makeup I truly don't believe he would be so big). This 'small' gene creates beautiful rabbits that are basically little clones of him... with the emphasis on 'little' as a high percentage of his offspring are between 3 - 4 lbs as seniors. Many of his show quality offspring barely even make 3 lbs as Seniors (I have one Sr. BEW Buck from him right now who has yet to hit the 3 lb mark) and they all have his wonderful plush, dense fur! (the one leg he earned at a show was given by a judge who was so impressed with his fur that he picked him up and held him above the crowd stating loudly, "Finally, a BEW with REAL Mini Rex fur!"

As a last thought... I find that free feeding will surely separate the true big boys and girls from those who have small genetics... as a matter of fact I free feed all of my rabbits just so that I will know their true genetics for senior size and weight ... as opposed to those that have limited feed and stay small only because of measured feeding. I once got a pair of BEW Mini Rex as Seniors because they were nice and small, both just 3 lbs (of course, as Seniors, they have supposedly reached their 'basic' full size)... come to find out they had been raised on measured feed and once they were free fed their true genetic size showed through... yup, you guessed it, they were both over 4 1/2 lbs when they finished filling out, and that wasn't because they were fat or overweight (they now had great flesh and condition, and were in proper proportion), no it was because they finally could grow to their full genetic size in length, etc. since they had enough nutrients to do so (and, no, I didn't worm them so that wasn't a factor in their small size). I would never had taken them home had it not been for their smaller size for BEWs at the time... that was a huge waste of cage space for the many months, but, it did help to reiterate my theories on free feeding and the positive side of it.

All that to say... get to know your lines and what your rabbits produce, keep them long enough to know if they tend to 'fill out at the shoulders' late, etc.... and... as Marina mentioned, it is important to listen to your gut instincts and not just the physical appearance/attribut es as Juniors.

Sue

PS ... Yes, Marina, your photos did come through on my email

MARINA wrote:

Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense..

Let me know if this email comes through..it never shows on my account!!!

Marina

Austria

#10883

From: "stierfarmsminirex" <stierfarmsminirex@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 6:31 pm
Subject: Tri ? in Mini Rex Rabbits

stierfarmsmi...

Offline

is this possible to get a broken castor from a Tri breeding?
the mom of the br castor is a broken black but her mom is a tri,
then the sire of the litter is a tri.... there is no castor in the lines.


now i think i asked this already but i posted pics in the Broken Castor photo
album..

thanks janessa

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#10882

From: "PJ Dvorak " <pjrabbit_17@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 6:16 pm
Subject: Tan Mini Satin!

pjcarolina17

Offline

After one year I beat the odds and produced a Tan Mini Satin in only two
generations! (chances were 1 in 128) I will try to get pictures on the site as
soon as possible.

-PJ
Sent from my BlackBerry� smartphone with SprintSpeed

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#10881

From: r.regitz@...
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: self tri vs agouti tri vs tan pattern tri

r.regitz@...

> WIth the self tri, they show torting if they have one ej gene; eje;
> but if they are ejej they don't show the torting.
thats what i like to ratify ;-)

--
Mit freundlichen Gr��en
Renate

www.satinangora.de   www.kaninchenwissen.de   www.rabbitcolors.info

#10880

From: Deidre Edder <Edderland@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 5:32 pm
Subject: self tri vs agouti tri vs tan pattern tri

edderland

Offline

WIth the self tri, they show torting if they have one ej gene; eje; but if they are ejej they don't show the torting.
ditto the tan pattern tris.
Also, all three patterns show better balance of color; ie black to orange; blue to fawn, etc, if they are ejej rather than eje.
Deidre

Deidre Edder,
Proud Army Mom to SPC. Chuck at HAAF in Savannah
A Spaw at Your Door Mobile Pet Grooming
The Phunny Pharm Breeder of Champion
Jersey Wooly and Netherland Dwarf Rabbits

#10879

From: lilysrabbitry <lilysrabbithole@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 2:55 pm
Subject: Re: Culling

lilysrabbitry

Offline

Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense..

Let me know if this email comes through..it never shows on my account!!!

Marina

Austria

#10878

From: Patricia Hernandez <iamabxarx@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 1:52 pm
Subject: Re: Culling

iamabxarx

Offline

I really appreciated this info as I am always looking back. I have not been raising rabbits for very long and still have a GREAT deal to learn. Is there any one out there who raises Jersey Woolies who would care to share their culling experiences? I have about twice as many rabbits right now as I should have and need to be able to make the best choices of which ones to let go of. Any help would be very much appreciated.

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, MARINA <samthase@...> wrote:

From: MARINA <samthase@...>
Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling
To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 10:31 AM

With breeding over 200 rabbits a year, mainly mini rex ( i got standard lynx too , but work only with two does because I think, if you know what you do , you do not need 20 rabbits in one color to get a perfect team for show...I am not talking broken varietes :).)in a bunch of colors and all color bred, I am very strict on culling but have my reasons to keep once in a while a rabbit, where everyone asks: why????

The ears have two reasons to grow:

- a genetical background of long eared rabbits (breed if perfect rabbit to one that has too short ears)

- summer ear, this you can avoid when breeding only in cold season

Now, if you get your litters and it is too hot they will grow longer than you hope them to grow (I hope the picture examples come through)

at 12 weeks too long in ear...born in hot months. (positioning is European style there fore the MR looks already different). Still she is a keeper due to her marvelous marking, spotless chest, spot on forehead, density in fur (does not come through on pic) and perfect shape (no dewlap, no edge back bones..)

I start culling, mentally on day 3 after they are born. Now I can see the colors properly (especially on the tri-color variety very difficult). I happen to have a great memory, so I save the rabbits in my mind from what I saw, but also write already down something like or totally dislike like: bad markings, crappy color, odd..does not feel right...

Doe: Tinuviel (buck. Doughnut), kit #5 tuxedo, perfect markings...and I add a pic.

at 19 days I cull mentally the second time. The way they look at that point is crucial for later, because soon they will be in the stage of ugly duckling and I will not even look at them in any possible way because it makes no sense. If you just started ask an experienced breeder, even 4-H kids that really put heart and head in can help you.

At 19 days you see if

the fur will be dense or bad.

you see already the first signs for good or bad body shape

that rabbit gets a "crocodile/goat" face or if it is neatly round and big.

the ears will be decent or terrible..

you got more bucks or does without that you got to look at the genital area (I see it normally around day 5, but I might need glasses sooner or later)

teeth

...

harlequein, future brood doe only for dalmatian breeding (not enough black stripes)..will not look at her until she is 12 weeks then.

It is time for the next entry in the rabbit book:

Doe: Tinuviel (buck Doughut) kit: Noire, #4) good type, good fur, good body, shows sign of long ear...careful, check next at 12 weeks.

or: same info like above but: kit #6, Nina, great fur, great body, probably goat head...cull at 8 weeks (sell or raise in different are of rabbitry for meat production).

Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense...

I wean them at 8 weeks and then do not look at the kits that I decided to keep until they are twelve weeks. The others leave at 8 weeks, no looking back EVER, no sentimentality. ..

At twelve weeks, next check (teeth, body..)

Get a list with at least 20 questions, give 5 points per question, per rabbit one list and put four equal looking rabbits on the table.

Now check each question and write the points next to it. Max points 100.(fur, teeth, front legs, dewlap, hips..) compare the rabbits, judge hard..any rabbit under 95 points is OUT. If you are not sure, ask an honest breeder, who you can trust to look once at the rabbit again if you are not sure..then cull. No looking back.

Now you have narrowed it down to the stock you need. Check rabbit at 24 weeks. it should look perfect now. If not..cull.

Next: culling: after show season:

who proofed quality on the show table

turned out not pretty even all was supposed to be good

Next culling: after breeding season:

made ugly kits

had not enough milk

produced split penis

....

So, now why keep a rabbit that has no defects but everyone asks why THAT one?

perfect line and just happened to be born in hot season and got too long ears

last in blood line that you need to conserve

ugly rabbit but you know when you breed to Mr X you will have winners

....you know it is ugly but your life time experience tells you KEEP IT, you can not explain it, but you feel it. It is "rabdar" (rabbit radar). This you get after a couple of years.

Important how to learn to cull right is always ´keep learning from other breeders. They may be younger, they may be older, they may come from different breeds...does not matter, but they might know something that is worth memorizing and never get to the point where you think, you know it all :) right then will be a rabbit in your litter that is absolutely looking against all odds, against all rules..and tell you, that you know nothing. :)

Let me know if this email comes through..it never shows on my account!!!

Marina

Austria

-------Original Message----- --

From: Maritza Lahodik

Date: 11/09/09 03:23:33

To: rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com; Rabbit_Talk@ yahoogroups. com; NMRRC@yahoogroups. com

Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Hello everyone,

My daughters and I are raising Mini Rex. I wanted to pick your brains on how you guys decide which rabbits to cull and at what age.

I am particularly concerned about ears. How important is ear length to you when you are culling. I am finding that if I a litter has longer ears, I feel like I don't need to look any further. Should I be disregarding a litter merely on the length of the ears at 6-8 weeks of age?

What factors do you guys look at and at what age intervals?

I know that one of the things that I prefer on a rabbit is for it to have alot of depth and I am wondering if maybe those babies need to have ears longer than others because their depth is going to require for it to balance well.

I think culling is one of the most difficult things about raising rabbits.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight,

Maritza

#10877

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 10:31 am
Subject: Re: Culling

schnupfi2001

Offline

With breeding over 200 rabbits a year, mainly mini rex ( i got standard lynx too , but work only with two does because I think, if you know what you do , you do not need 20 rabbits in one color to get a perfect team for show...I am not talking broken varietes :).)in a bunch of colors and all color bred, I am very strict on culling but have my reasons to keep once in a while a rabbit, where everyone asks: why????

The ears have two reasons to grow:

- a genetical background of long eared rabbits (breed if perfect rabbit to one that has too short ears)

- summer ear, this you can avoid when breeding only in cold season

Now, if you get your litters and it is too hot they will grow longer than you hope them to grow (I hope the picture examples come through)

at 12 weeks too long in ear...born in hot months. (positioning is European style there fore the MR looks already different). Still she is a keeper due to her marvelous marking, spotless chest, spot on forehead, density in fur (does not come through on pic) and perfect shape (no dewlap, no edge back bones..)

I start culling, mentally on day 3 after they are born. Now I can see the colors properly (especially on the tri-color variety very difficult). I happen to have a great memory, so I save the rabbits in my mind from what I saw, but also write already down something like or totally dislike like: bad markings, crappy color, odd..does not feel right...

Doe: Tinuviel (buck. Doughnut), kit #5 tuxedo, perfect markings...and I add a pic.

at 19 days I cull mentally the second time. The way they look at that point is crucial for later, because soon they will be in the stage of ugly duckling and I will not even look at them in any possible way because it makes no sense. If you just started ask an experienced breeder, even 4-H kids that really put heart and head in can help you.

At 19 days you see if

the fur will be dense or bad.
you see already the first signs for good or bad body shape
that rabbit gets a "crocodile/goat" face or if it is neatly round and big.
the ears will be decent or terrible..
you got more bucks or does without that you got to look at the genital area (I see it normally around day 5, but I might need glasses sooner or later)
teeth
...
harlequein, future brood doe only for dalmatian breeding (not enough black stripes)..will not look at her until she is 12 weeks then.

It is time for the next entry in the rabbit book:

Doe: Tinuviel (buck Doughut) kit: Noire, #4) good type, good fur, good body, shows sign of long ear...careful, check next at 12 weeks.

or: same info like above but: kit #6, Nina, great fur, great body, probably goat head...cull at 8 weeks (sell or raise in different are of rabbitry for meat production).

Now at this time all kits that look fluffy but not like little sheep..forget those right away, the hair will be too long, the fur not really dense...

I wean them at 8 weeks and then do not look at the kits that I decided to keep until they are twelve weeks. The others leave at 8 weeks, no looking back EVER, no sentimentality...

At twelve weeks, next check (teeth, body..)

Get a list with at least 20 questions, give 5 points per question, per rabbit one list and put four equal looking rabbits on the table.

Now check each question and write the points next to it. Max points 100.(fur, teeth, front legs, dewlap, hips..) compare the rabbits, judge hard..any rabbit under 95 points is OUT. If you are not sure, ask an honest breeder, who you can trust to look once at the rabbit again if you are not sure..then cull. No looking back.

Now you have narrowed it down to the stock you need. Check rabbit at 24 weeks. it should look perfect now. If not..cull.

Next: culling: after show season:

who proofed quality on the show table
turned out not pretty even all was supposed to be good

Next culling: after breeding season:

made ugly kits
had not enough milk
produced split penis
....

So, now why keep a rabbit that has no defects but everyone asks why THAT one?

perfect line and just happened to be born in hot season and got too long ears
last in blood line that you need to conserve
ugly rabbit but you know when you breed to Mr X you will have winners
....you know it is ugly but your life time experience tells you KEEP IT, you can not explain it, but you feel it. It is "rabdar" (rabbit radar). This you get after a couple of years.

Important how to learn to cull right is always �keep learning from other breeders. They may be younger, they may be older, they may come from different breeds...does not matter, but they might know something that is worth memorizing and never get to the point where you think, you know it all :) right then will be a rabbit in your litter that is absolutely looking against all odds, against all rules..and tell you, that you know nothing. :)

Let me know if this email comes through..it never shows on my account!!!

Marina

Austria

-------Original Message-------

From: Maritza Lahodik

Date: 11/09/09 03:23:33

To: rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com; Rabbit_Talk@yahoogroups.com; NMRRC@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Hello everyone,

My daughters and I are raising Mini Rex. I wanted to pick your brains on how you guys decide which rabbits to cull and at what age.

I am particularly concerned about ears. How important is ear length to you when you are culling. I am finding that if I a litter has longer ears, I feel like I don't need to look any further. Should I be disregarding a litter merely on the length of the ears at 6-8 weeks of age?

What factors do you guys look at and at what age intervals?

I know that one of the things that I prefer on a rabbit is for it to have alot of depth and I am wondering if maybe those babies need to have ears longer than others because their depth is going to require for it to balance well.

I think culling is one of the most difficult things about raising rabbits.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight,

Maritza

#10876

From: r.regitz@...
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 9:09 am
Subject: Re: Re: Magpie make-up

r.regitz@...

is it proven to not carry e or think you so, because it is out of tri
lines?

--
Mit freundlichen Gr��en
Renate

www.satinangora.de   www.kaninchenwissen.de   www.rabbitcolors.info

#10875

From: Natalie Shobe <snobunny22789@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 3:34 am
Subject: Re: Culling

snobunny22789

Offline

Hi there. That is a good question. I raise Mini Rex to and this has been my experience. Unless I see that a rabbit has lots of depth at 6-8 weeks already, I don't usually judge on depth of body so much at that age unless I can see an obvious lack of depth or extra depth. Rabbits can go through a lot of changes in their type and and fur from 6-8 weeks on to about 4 - 5 months. That is at least what I have experienced with my rabbits. I am not sure if the ear length has anything to do with a rabbit's potential depth. It may have something to do with the size of the rabbits when they mature though. I've noticed that sometimes my 6-8 week old babies that have longer ears, will often be larger as seniors. Most likely near the weight limit or over the weight limit. Babies with really long ears usually end up having ears over the length limit by the time they hit senior whether or not they go over the weight limit. However, sometimes longer ears will balance out. I've had several juniors that I would have culled because they had longer ears at 8 weeks when I looked them over. Because of their type, I waited. I figured that I would give them 2 more months to grow and develop. If their ears continued to develop unbalanced with the size of their body or continued to grow like weeds, I would cull them. However, if their ears stopped growing and their body was growing into their ears, I would keep them longer. Sure enough after just a month, I took another look at them and they had grown into their ears and their ears actually quit growing at about 3 months. Now, if you were to look at these juniors, you would not notice that their ears had been larger at all. These rabbits are small too so they didn't get too large either. Sometimes, the best thing to do is wait. Give the rabbits an extra month or two to develop and then do you culling. Of course, if you have some babies that are already abnormally large or have really long hare like ears, then I would cull them early. But, unless they have a DQ, have major faults that I know they will only grow into worse, I will not cull them right away. I do encourage being careful but sometimes waiting a little bit if you are not totally sure about how the rabbit will develop, can pay off.

Hope that helps. That is just my experience. Some breeders may be a little more strict with what they keep and cull than I am but I don't like to be too hasty with culling. Those rabbits that I cull are permanently gone from my barn. I can't bring them back if I change my mind so sometimes, I like to go on the careful side and let them take up one of my holes for a month or two longer. Remember, doesn't hurt to wait. Sometimes it is the best way to learn about how rabbits develop.

Natalie

From: Maritza Lahodik <mlahodik@...>
To: rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com; Rabbit_Talk@yahoogroups.com; NMRRC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 6:23:21 PM
Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Culling

Hello everyone,

My daughters and I are raising Mini Rex. I wanted to pick your brains on how you guys decide which rabbits to cull and at what age.

I am particularly concerned about ears. How important is ear length to you when you are culling. I am finding that if I a litter has longer ears, I feel like I don't need to look any further. Should I be disregarding a litter merely on the length of the ears at 6-8 weeks of age?

What factors do you guys look at and at what age intervals?

I know that one of the things that I prefer on a rabbit is for it to have alot of depth and I am wondering if maybe those babies need to have ears longer than others because their depth is going to require for it to balance well.

I think culling is one of the most difficult things about raising rabbits.

Thanks in advance for your help and insight,

Maritza

#10874

From: "Maritza Lahodik" <mlahodik@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 2:23 am
Subject: Culling

mlahodik

Offline

#10873

From: "MARINA" <samthase@...>
Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:01 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Magpie make-up

schnupfi2001

Offline

http://www.kleinrex.com/Mitsuki.jpg

yes,

here:

MArina

-------Original Message-------

From: r.regitz@...

Date: 11/07/09 22:56:28

Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Re: Magpie make-up

> That's "incomplete dominance" coming to bite - the ej gene doesn't
> totally cover the non-extension e gene, which can peek through as
> tort shadings, mostly on the nose, but also ear bases and lower hip
> area. But it doesn't always.
thats the cause, why i asked, if it is known, which genes exactly
this rabbits have on the E locus.
Do someone know a torted japanese/tri, which are for sure ejej?

--
Mit freundlichen Gr��en
Renate

www.satinangora.de www.kaninchenwissen.de www.rabbitcolors.info