Yes, and I am glad to explain it..actually you are missing the most
important element.

Genetically, (and by the new Mini Rex Otter standard) Otters MUST
have undercolor on the belly! Specifically, the Tan varieties in
ARBA, including the Tan rabbit, MUST NOT have undercolor, and are
tan/rufus all the way to the belly skin!

Thus, what I have had to do is NOT just collect a lot of rufus
modifiers, but also insert and isolate the wideband genes that make
the Tan what it is.  A judge will easily be able to sort out Otters
from tans by blowing in the belly.. if no other way..BUT I sure
expect I'll develop such a dark rufus level of highlights (belly,
ears, eyes, nose, tail,etc.), that there will be NO chance of
confusing them... Also, I am strongly convinced that the deeper rufus
will also translate into MUCH darker Blue, Lilac, Chocolate, and
Black surface colors then the Otters have.. due to the rufus being on
ALL those hair shafts, but just be covered up by the surface color.
(I view the 'AtAt' gene as just a big, well defined 'spot' of surface
color on the otherwise very tan/rufus rabbit...

Call me crazy, but we'll see in the next few years!!! Does this help?

Hi there.  I am so glad to be able to see those photos!!!  What an
achievement!   Now I have a question: recall that comment made
by one of the members concerning the french rare breed "le
Lapin Chevre"?  I don't know if anyone looked it up. I did.  and
they looked like Otters to me.  Silver Martins with a lot of rufus?  I
had a lot of these when I first started out with my so-called Silver
Martin breeding stock.  I still have a few; they keep cropping up,
and some are really nice as they seem to have much glossier
coats for some reason...I'll try to send along a picture.  But here's
my question:  Are Otter minirex basically just Tans with poor
rufus?  Maybe a Tan Minirex is one with a full serving of rufus
while an otter has only a half serving, so to speak.  Its just that in
the Otter, you want to get that lovely red-gold lining between the
body and the belly colour, etc.  However, if you rufus hypothesis
is correct, Otter breeders who try to accentuate that colour might
wind up with Tans....or?  Am I missing something?

Hello,

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Regards,

jag62xke <steve.roush@...>

> Now you've done it. <grin>  Where do I find more information about
> >   o Production genetics (ADG, F/E)
>   o Product Genetics (Heritability Estimates)
> ?

OK Dawn..While I could write a book, (and may eventually), on how these
topics relate to rabbits, some of the general info will be uploaded to
the files section of this group as soon as i can load them up...

Hope it'll help!

SR

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
rabbit_genetics_Quickpost group:

This poll will end on August 31, 2006, and you will receive the results via
email.
My primary area of concern when dealing with rabbit genetics is in the area of:

   o Coat Color genetics (A_B_C_D_E_, etc.)
   o Production genetics (ADG, F/E)
   o Product Genetics (Heritability Estimates)
   o Inbreeding/Linebreeding
   o Any/All of the above


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Thanks!

Stephen Roush, SPHR.
Manager, Human Resources
Roper Corporation, LaFayette, GA 30728

:
>
,
>
> My approach would be, what colors do i want to end up with..that i
> really will enjoy raising and showing. IF you can tell me that, i
can
> tell you what to buy...

My daughter and I like about all colors but her favorite is the blue
and the white even himi and siamese sable I like the chocolate or chin
I will look for a lilac and that will help us determine what else we
can breed to yes they are both does they are out at the fair right now.
Along with 5 mini rex we have not done much breeding but think we are
about ready to do some more.

Thank you Judy

> Steve, if Marty has a blue that she knows is Bb, won't that
increase
> her odds of getting chocolates or even lilacs from the choc X blue
> breeding?
First, I don't tknow that Marti wants chocolates or lilacs. i don't
think so..Those just aren't the colors she usually works with!

In any case, you are correct, and here is how I calculate it:

... Blue would be aaBbCCddEE.
Chocolate is aabbCCDDEE
All offspring, first cross, would be either:
aabbCCDdEE (Chocolate= 50%)
or aaBbCCDdEE (Black = 50%)

IF the Chocolate were to carry a dilute (from a Lilac parent?) then
the odds of getting Lilacs and Blues would indeed arise..
and the first cross would NOW result in:

aabbCCddEE (Lilac = 25%)
aaBbCCddEE (Blue = 25%)
aabbCCDdEE (Chocolate= 25%)
aaBbCCDdEE (Black = 25%)

The easiest way to calculate this percentage distribution is;

We know any cross of a 'chocolate' to a 'black carrying chocolate' is
50% of each. Also, we know, any cross of a 'dilute' to an 'intense
carrying dilute' is 50% of each.

The math then says:
50% dilute x 50% chocolate = 25% Lilac
50% dilute x 50% Black = 25% Blue.
50% Intense x 50% chocolate = 25% chocolate
50% Intense x 50% Black = 25% Black
Is this useful?

> Steve, if Marty has a blue that she knows is Bb, won't that
increase
> her odds of getting chocolates or even lilacs from the choc X blue
> breeding?
First, I don't tknow that Marti wants chocolates or lilacs. i don't
think so..Those just aren't the colors she usually works with!

In any case, you are correct, and here is how I calculate it:

... Blue would be aaBbCCddEE.
Chocolate is aabbCCDDEE
All offspring, first cross, would be either:
aabbCCDdEE (Chocolate= 50%)
or aaBbCCDdEE (Black = 50%)

IF  the Chocolate were to carry a dilute (from a Lilac parent?) then
the odds of getting Lilacs and Blues would indeed arise..
and the first cross would NOW result in:

aabbCCddEE (Lilac = 25%)
aaBbCCddEE (Blue = 25%)
aabbCCDdEE (Chocolate= 25%)
aaBbCCDdEE (Black = 25%)

The easiest way to calculate this percentage distribution is;

We know any cross of a 'chocolate' to a 'black carrying chocolate' is
50% of each. Also, we know, any cross of a 'dilute' to an 'intense
carrying dilute' is 50% of each.

The math then says:
50% dilute x 50% chocolate = 25% Lilac
50% dilute x 50% Black = 25% Blue.
50% Intense x 50% chocolate = 25% chocolate
50% Intense x 50% Black = 25% Black
Is this useful?

Judy,

My approach would be, what colors do i want to end up with..that i
really will enjoy raising and showing. IF you can tell me that, i can
tell you what to buy... Also, I assume these are does?  Finding out
what their other genes are will certainly be critical. the easiest
way to do that is to cross them each with a Lilac (aabbCCddEE)..Ideal
would be a lilac tort (aabbCCddee) but those are even more rare than
Lilacs..

A Lilac to your BEW or REW would show ?a?bC??dE? so any self babies
would say the BEW or REW is carrying self(a), any dilutes would say
the BEW or REW carries dilute (d), any Chocolate or Lilac colors
would say the BEW or REW carries chocolate (b).

If NO Agouti pop up, the BEW or REW is 'aa' or 'at?', IF NO black or
Blue pop up, the REW and BEW are chocolate (bb), and IF no intense
colors pop up, the BEW and REW are dilutes (dd).

Such rabbits are commonly called "gene separators" because they allow
you to sort out what colors (genes) are in other rabbits (like yours)
by breeding to them.

Some like to use Blue (aaBBChChddEE)or Lilac Himalayans
(aabbChChddEE) to sort out that 'c series', but again, VERY hard to
find such colors...

So, WHAT colors do you want to end up with, or are you just curious
what you may get?  In any case, you'll need some type of 'gene'
separator to get you started!!

Steve, if Marty has a blue that she knows is Bb, won't that increase
her odds of getting chocolates or even lilacs from the choc X blue
breeding?
Marty - we've been having chocolates pop out recently one from our
blacks which we knew went way back to chocolate, the other two came
from our tort doe crossed with a black buck (she's related to your
tort doe from Cathy). I love nest box surprises (good ones that is!).

--- In rabbit_genetics_Quickpost@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen"
<steve.roush@...> wrote:
>
> That chocolate may be useful with the Silmars... IF you were to
cross
>   Otherwise, if you have some
> nicely typed (well, all of yours usually are nicely typed)Blue
does,
> and crossed the chcolate buck to them, you'd get all black
offspring.
> would that be an option?  We also have blacks, reds
> (Thrianta/MR crosses), opal, SILMARS and REW's.
> >
> >   I'd love to hear some suggestions.
> >
> >   Marti Dill
> >
>

I am wanting to breed my 2 neterland dwarfs and will be looking for
the best possible mate for these 2 even if I need to buy 2 bucks.
We have a rew doe with all rew in back ground so have no idea what she
is hiding. and a bew with all bew in back ground. So what would be
best to find to go with these 2 rabbits?? I am thinkng for the bew a
bew would be best or at least a bew carrier but how about the rew doe??
Thanks
Judy

that has over 400 members, so should be a good indicator of how
many 'are', or if they cannot get them in their area yet, 'would be'
interested in BEW..

Stephen Roush, SPHR.
Manager, Human Resources
Roper Corporation, LaFayette, GA 30728

I have no idea. When I went to Nationals I was pretty surprised to see that only 5 BEW were entered and 4 were mine! Not even enough for a leg. :(  I had looked forward to BEW competition and didnt thought of that happening!  I know of many dabbling in BEW but only a few who seriously are working on it. 

 

I am tempted to post on the Mini Rex News yahoogroup a survery to see how many are doing it.

 

 Berlena
( Y )
( '.' )
*(")_(")

 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: steve.roush@ge.com
To: rabbit_genetics_Quickpost@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: [rabbit_genetics_Quickpost] Re: Self Blue Chin?

>> Why would it matter what color genes are in my BEW herd?
>
Wouldn't at all if all you want to do is raise BEW.

I think the discussion was to do with a Blue chin,.. and that was the
crux of my comments.. Ans I agree totally, REW would be a pain to deal
with when making BEW... BEW are really good looking..Any idea how many
MR breeders are making them right now?

---

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

>> Why would it matter what color genes are in my BEW herd?
>
Wouldn't at all if all you want to do is raise BEW.

I think the discussion was to do with a Blue chin,.. and that was the
crux of my comments.. Ans I agree totally, REW would be a pain to deal
with when making BEW... BEW are really good looking..Any idea how many
MR breeders are making them right now?

If you are interested in the process/progress development fo the Tan
Mini Rex (wideband otters with LOTS of rufus, no belly undercolor) over
3 years, glance at the photos section of this site!.. I'll be posting
photos of the REAL DEAL in a few weeks..and they are looking good!

Yep, you are right on!   The mystery is in the BEW... and the only
thing we can be sure of in that rabbit is the 'vv' and that the 'C'
series is not 'cc'. I am sure that the 'cc' would even erase those
lovely blue eyes, and show up the animal as a REW.. Wouldn't that be
a confusing couple of gene sets to have mixed up in your herd?

>
> Stephen, I believe the Cchd gene could have come from the BEW
buck... and only 1 is needed to produce a Self Chin - since it could
be recessive for REW, Himi, Shaded and still be Chin/Self Chin
(remember, we're talking the Chin's here and not Seals).
>
> I saw pictures of the "Self Blue Chin" in question and it does have
apparent "shading" over the flanks.  What is interesting is that it's
belly is of lighter color (though not agouti-ish) and it appears to
have white undercolor over the top of it's back.
>
> I'm wondering if it may somehow be a dilute Seal (aka Dark Smoke
Pearl) or dilute Sable (aka smoke Pearl / Siamese Smoke Pearl) -
because of the shaded appearance?
>
> ~Sunshine
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Stephen <steve.roush@...>
> To: rabbit_genetics_Quickpost@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 10:10:22 AM
> Subject: [rabbit_genetics_Quickpost] Re: Self Blue Chin?
>
> Self blue chin is about as close to a blue as you can get, but with
a
> little less depth of color...(Like a Black Chin, with less depth of
> black than a black has.)
>
> If the BEW was agouti, it would still need to carry a self
recessive in
> order to throw a blue chin..(as the 'chin' is only 'chin' because
of
> the CchdCchd genes..since it is a self (aa), you wouldn't see any
> effect from the cchd genes, EXCEPT that the 'yellow color' that
would
> have underlaid the 'black' or 'blue' is not there, this weakening
the
> color and losing color depth.
>
> Just wondered where you think you may have gotten the Cchd genes
> from..the broken blue (?) and the BEW? Remember, each parent has to
> carry the genes.
>
> --- In rabbit_genetics_ Quickpost@ yahoogroups. com, "berlena73"
> <qwazirabit@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Ok I am pretty sure its possible to get a self blue chin. Just
> > curious on what one looks like. Now mind you this is a BEW to
broken
> > blue breeding. So I am not entirely sure what the BEW is
> > genetically. I am pretty positive he is some sort of agouti.
> >
> > I just wondered what one looks like. The rabbit in question looks
> > blue right off but then you see its 'off'. Almost like he has a
> > lighter undercoat. He does have slight shading on the sides which
> > I've never seen on a blue. This guy is a very nice vienna carrier
> and
> > might end up as a keeper. Just curious about what he is.
> >
>

That chocolate may be useful with the Silmars... IF you were to cross
it to a Blue or Black silver marten, you would get 100% Otters..which
are selling and showing well right now.  Otherwise, if you have some
nicely typed (well, all of yours usually are nicely typed)Blue does,
and crossed the chcolate buck to them, you'd get all black offspring.

The key here, Marti, is your REW's..which are, I'll bet, chocolates.
Breed him back to a white, and you'll get 50% whites guaranteed(since
one of his parents is a white), and possibly the rest will be
chcolate...  By the way, you now know that the Castor parent of this
buck carries both the self gene (thus their 'A' series is 'Aa')and the
chocolate gene (so their 'B' series is 'Bb'). this means that you can
breed black or blue back to the Castor parent, and get 50% blacks from
that crossing. If you were to want more chocolates, crossing a
chocolate to that Castor would yield 25% each of Chocolate, Castors,
Black, and Amber (Chocolate Agouti).. Whew! Hope that helps.

--- In rabbit_genetics_Quickpost@yahoogroups.com, Marti & Vern Dill
<bamabuns@...> wrote:
>
> Recently I had a chocolate buck born here - - - to my amazement since
I do not work with chocolates.  He is out of a Castor buck and a REW
doe.  Next generation has two broken Castor's and two REW's.  Third
generation is 3 broken Castor's, a Castor and four REW's.
>
>   My question is - now that I have him, what do I do with him?  I
definitely do not want to take him back to my castor's.  I have a few
young blues - would that be an option?  We also have blacks, reds
(Thrianta/MR crosses), opal, SILMARS and REW's.
>
>   I'd love to hear some suggestions.
>
>   Marti Dill
>

Self blue chin is about as close to a blue as you can get, but with a
little less depth of color...(Like a Black Chin, with less depth of
black than a black has.)

If the BEW was agouti, it would still need to carry a self recessive in
order to throw a blue chin..(as the 'chin' is only 'chin' because of
the CchdCchd genes..since it is a self (aa), you wouldn't see any
effect from the cchd genes, EXCEPT that the 'yellow color' that would
have underlaid the 'black' or 'blue' is not there, this weakening the
color and losing color depth.

Just wondered where you think you may have gotten the Cchd genes
from..the broken blue (?) and the BEW? Remember, each parent has to
carry the genes.


--- In rabbit_genetics_Quickpost@yahoogroups.com, "berlena73"
<qwazirabit@...> wrote:
>
> Ok I am pretty sure its possible to get a self blue chin.  Just
> curious on what one looks like.  Now mind you this is a BEW to broken
> blue breeding.  So I am not entirely sure what the BEW is
> genetically.  I am pretty positive he is some sort of agouti.
>
> I just wondered what one looks like.  The rabbit in question looks
> blue right off but then you see its 'off'.  Almost like he has a
> lighter undercoat.  He does have slight shading on the sides which
> I've never seen on a blue.  This guy is a very nice vienna carrier
and
> might end up as a keeper.  Just curious about what he is.
>

Ok I am pretty sure its possible to get a self blue chin.  Just
curious on what one looks like.  Now mind you this is a BEW to broken
blue breeding.  So I am not entirely sure what the BEW is
genetically.  I am pretty positive he is some sort of agouti.

I just wondered what one looks like.  The rabbit in question looks
blue right off but then you see its 'off'.  Almost like he has a
lighter undercoat.  He does have slight shading on the sides which
I've never seen on a blue.  This guy is a very nice vienna carrier and
might end up as a keeper.  Just curious about what he is.

Anyone confused about the dwarfing genes?  I am amazed how many new
breeders just do NOT understand why two rabbits in the same litter can
be so different in size... DWDW as opposed to DWdw..

Anyone need this clarified?