Always helps to cool the condenser but winter air - I would stop with the fan.
Outdoor units have a heater around the compressor can so that freon doesnt
condense there.
Kirk

--- On Sun, 11/15/09, charles malone <airbornetrimmer@...> wrote:

From: charles malone <airbornetrimmer@...>
Subject: [RefrigeratorAlternatives] reducing fridge power use
To: RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 6:02 AM







 









       i would like to throw in an old idea my mother uses on her fridge to see
what is thought in here on the subject. She places a small fan to where it blows
cooler room air underneath the fridge,helping to remove heat from the compressor
and coils, and swears the fridge cools better at a particular setting,and that
the compressor doesnt kick on as often.Do you think this would reduce overall
electric use for the fridge?Does it make the cycle work better, if more heat is
removed. also this heat is removed from under the fridge,therefore not rising up
underneath into the cooling compartment. Seems to make sense to me.What do
youall think of the idea.If reducing the temp helps, i may close in the back of
mine,and make a few holes in my house,one at the bottom of the fridge,to let
cool winter air in,and one at the top, to let warmer air out. Loosing a little
room heat in the process doesnt really matter, as i have a kickin wood burner i
built to heat the
  house

  with.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anything you do to lower the condenser coil should help lower the current draw
of the pump. That will hold true to a certain point. But continually moving air
around a fridge is probably a bad idea. After all "wind chill" works in both
directions. That is why a convection oven has a fan inside it. It makes the food
warm up faster.  You would probably be better off placing a timer relay on the
fan that is already there or install one that turns on with the fridge. Keeping
the hot coils from cooking the fridge. But not running continuous. even a Tstat
on the coils would work

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, charles malone
<airbornetrimmer@...> wrote:
>
> i would like to throw in an old idea my mother uses on her fridge to see what
is thought in here on the subject. She places a small fan to where it blows
cooler room air underneath the fridge,helping to remove heat from the compressor
and coils, and swears the fridge cools better at a particular setting,and that
the compressor doesnt kick on as often.Do you think this would reduce overall
electric use for the fridge?Does it make the cycle work better, if more heat is
removed. also this heat is removed from under the fridge,therefore not rising up
underneath into the cooling compartment.Seems to make sense to me.What do youall
think of the idea.If reducing the temp helps, i may close in the back of
mine,and make a few holes in my house,one at the bottom of the fridge,to let
cool winter air in,and one at the top, to let warmer air out. Loosing a little
room heat in the process doesnt really matter, as i have a kickin wood burner i
built to heat the house
>  with.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

i would like to throw in an old idea my mother uses on her fridge to see what is
thought in here on the subject. She places a small fan to where it blows cooler
room air underneath the fridge,helping to remove heat from the compressor and
coils, and swears the fridge cools better at a particular setting,and that the
compressor doesnt kick on as often.Do you think this would reduce overall
electric use for the fridge?Does it make the cycle work better, if more heat is
removed. also this heat is removed from under the fridge,therefore not rising up
underneath into the cooling compartment.Seems to make sense to me.What do youall
think of the idea.If reducing the temp helps, i may close in the back of
mine,and make a few holes in my house,one at the bottom of the fridge,to let
cool winter air in,and one at the top, to let warmer air out. Loosing a little
room heat in the process doesnt really matter, as i have a kickin wood burner i
built to heat the house
  with.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've shopped a lot for refrigerators this past year.  In the 14.4 to 20.1 cu.ft
sizes, most "top freezer" models cost $39 to $51 A YEAR for electricity @ about
9cents/kwhr. .  There were a lot of $43 to $47 a year models in the 18cuft size
range.  The smaller "apartment size" 15 and 16 cu.ft. models were only slightly
cheaper to purchase (about $359 to $399) and maybe only $1 to $5 a year cheaper
to run.  At Sears, Lowes, HomeDepot, etc, lots of  really nice 18.1 to 18.8
cu.ft models were often on sale for $429 to $479, with free delivery usually
(via a rebate).  "Side by Side" models cost more to buy, $699 to $1199, and for
electricity.

None of the "apt size" models were energy star rated, I recall.  Only a couple
of 18cu.ft. models were, and surprisingly more 20.1cu.ft. models on up were
energy star rated, i.e., they used same electricity as  18cu.ft frigs. 

If you don't live in small house, or there is more than two people in the
household, get an 18.1 to 18.7 delux frig (glass shelves and drawers) for $449
that costs $43 a year to run according to EPA label.  I didn't notice that wire
shelves used less electricity.

However, since more of the 20+ cu.ft models were energy star rated, you might
get a larger local utility rebate.  Which is a good deal if you need a slightly
larger fridge.

Maybe in a couple years all our fridges will have thicker insulated walls, and
that might drop things down a couple bucks.  Opening and closing the door is
when you lose the most cold I'd say, and thats how EPA tests things.  Not how
much energy used if you don't use the item.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LC<larencorie@...> wrote:
>  Water is a PCM
>
>  John appears to not have had a clue, as to what materials he was
> talking about. When asked nicely to provide information, he simply
> unsubscribed himself from the group.

Yep, water is a PCM, but it only works as such from 32.2 and down, at least as
far as I know.   I try to filter out and ignore certain posts or parts thereof.
Makes me a happier man.

BL> > I did some minor research on these a while ago.   I was really
> > looking for something with the same capacity as ice, but at a
> > higher temp, say phase change at 34 degrees or so.
>
LC> Why?    That is not much difference, from 32.

I was looking for a way to add huge amounts of thermal mass in my fridge (more
to satisfy a curiosity).   To freeze water would also freeze food.   I wanted
something that would freeze/thaw during normal fridge operation.   I wanted it
to have the same capacity as ice/water.

The 34 number was not critical, but I was thinking that since this is a magical
number for water (when water is at it's most dense), that maybe there was
something that could be done there. (all numbers approximate)

BL> > The PCM's that I have seen that melt at these temps are generally
> > waxes, and do not have a high capacity.
>
LC> That depends on the functional temperature range of the usage.
> They do real well at their specific melting temperature.

OK.   You have already proved my memory to be horribly faulty so I won't even
attempt to dispute this.   I just remember, correctly or not, that the waxes
were not very good.   Maybe when I was researching them I was looking for
something that was as good or better than water.    Whatever, I stand corrected
yet again.


BL> >  As for the use of water rather than granite for heat storage, by
> > volume, granite is better than water, as is bricks, concrete, etc.
>
LC> No, none of them have near the thermal storage capacity of water.

I would like to defer my error to my being seriously tired last night.   I would
like to, but I cannot.   I will say that had I not been tired, maybe I would
have checked my *facts* and kept my mouth shut.   I had been repeating what I
stated above for at least a year now, but I cannot recall where this *fact* came
from.   I could also not find it in any of my notes, and this is something I
would have written down.   It was not something I was very interested in at the
time so I probably either calculated it myself and did that wrong and didn't
check my work, or I regurgitated something I read somewhere, accurately or not.
Maybe I got it from using the number for -10'C water (solid) which is at least a
little worse than granite, but frankly, I think I just screwed up somewhere
along the way.

Sorry.

But one things for sure, it sure did bring out some good technical info.   I
like that.

I reread my post this morning.   It hopefully, was one of my worst technical
posts ever.   I wrote authoritatively about things that I was only trying to
recall from a distant memory.   Sorry for the band width.   I wish I was
drinking last night, at least then I could have *claimed* that was the reason.

When we were researching refrigerators we noticed there was a
significant difference between two models where the only real difference
was that one used glass shelves (more power used) and one used wire
shelves (easier air circulation).

Darryl McMahon

LarenCorie wrote:
   <snip>

> Beating the
> new, high efficiency compressor refrigerators, is tough.
> And, it is getting tougher, every year.   I think that an
> area that has been relatively unexplored, so far, on
> RefrigeratorAlternatives, is the refrigerator interior.
> It looks like there are several simple options that
> could significantly reduce energy usage.
>
> -Laren Corie-


--
Darryl McMahon

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe

From: "ws25329" <ws25329@...>

> On ebay saw several model P4400.  Is that typical of what everyone
> uses?  Around $23 with shipping.  I have not done indepth research
> to see if anyone has them cheaper.

   Do a net-search for    "Kill-A-Watt discount code"
and you should be able to find the current lowest prices.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

From: "ct_bob98" <blyskowski@...>

> Laren, just a guess, but I am thinking that this reader
> is talking about PCM's

Hi Bob;

  Water is a PCM

  John appears to not have had a clue, as to what materials he was
talking about. When asked nicely to provide information, he simply
unsubscribed himself from the group.

> I did some minor research on these a while ago.   I was really
> looking for something with the same capacity as ice, but at a
> higher temp, say phase change at 34 degrees or so.

Why?    That is not much difference, from 32.

> Never found one that made sense.   What I would love to see is
> a phase change material, preferably one that is primarily water,
> that would change at, say, 140 degrees F and had the same
> capacity as the original water and not an environmental
> hazard/poison etc.

    That is pretty easy.  Use paraffin.  There are common paraffins
that melt at about 55C (131F).    That is the soft wax that is used
in candles in jars.  Hard waxes are in the 160-165F range. Liquid
waxes melt at below room temperatures.  I used soft paraffin bed
warmers for a couple of years, that were made with a mix of soft
paraffin and water. there are paraffins in many temperature ranges.
I have heard that you can mix liquid paraffins, to achieve various
temperature, but the material cost is too high (plus the factor of
thermal expansion) and water already works great.

> The PCM's that I have seen that melt at these temps are generally
> waxes, and do not have a high capacity.

That depends on the functional temperature range of the usage.
They do real well at their specific melting temperature. However,
since their specific-heat (sensible heat capacity) is considerably
less than water, they are not as good at other temperature,
where as water has a wide functional range. I use water, for
1) Solar water heating storage, 2) Solar space heat storage,
3) off-peak heat storage, 4) space heat storage with heat
pump, 5) natural space cooling storage, 6) off-peak spacing
heat storage, 7) AC cooling source, 8) refrigerator temperature
storage.   Plain water is that versatile.   And, it is virtually free.
I have not been able to find anything to beat it.

>  As for the use of water rather than granite for heat storage, by
> volume, granite is better than water, as is bricks, concrete, etc.

No, none of them have near the thermal storage capacity of water.

The thermal capacitance of water is 62.4BTU/ft³°F

Granite varies.  About 170lb/ft³ is a pretty good number.
Its specific heat is 0.19     170 x .19 = 31.35BTU/ft³°F
31.35BTU/ft³°F/62.4 = 50% as much as water.

Brick varies quite a bit, but typically, around 123lb/ft²
Specific heat = 0.2    123 x .2 = 24.6
24.6/62.4 = 39.4% as much as water

   Concrete also varies, by a few factors, such as the
type of aggregate that is in it.  144lb/ft³ is a good number.
Concrete has a lower specific heat, around 0.156
144 x 0.156 = 22.5BTU/ft³°F
22.5/62.4 = 36% as much as water

Most stone (even most granite) weighs less than
the granite example above, so stone/brick/concrete
is considered a general category, that for basic design,
is all rated the same, at 40% the capacity of water. In
addition to the clear superiority of water, in terms of
thermal capacity, water also absorbs and releases
heat more efficiently, so that its full thermal capacity
is more readily utilized, even with a smaller heat
exchange surface area.

> I don't know if anyone used it commercially, but experimental units
> were made using concrete as the bulk of the storage and water as
> the transfer medium.

That would express a lack of understanding of the simple basics,
of cost, thermal capacity, and heat transfer.  Back in the 1980s,
I designed dozens of houses that stored heat in a foot deep bed
of sand, under a 4" concrete slab floor, plus whatever finished
floor went over that, usually tiles, or brick pavers.   The transfer
fluid was air, through 4" corrugated, non-perforated, drain tubes.
Sand cost a small fraction of the cost of concrete, and the slab,
and part of the sand needed to be there, anyway, so the cost
was kept low.

> (yes, I know of the solar hot air units that used stone only,

  That strategy is a relic of the past, that should not be used.
There are simply too many issues. I did my last one of those,
way back in 1981, and I specialize in air systems, with heat
storage.

> but am unaware of stone/water hybrid units)

They definitely exist, and get talked about. But, it is another
strategy that seldom makes sense. The stone radically reduces
the storage capacity.  About the only rationale for it would be
for the  stone to furnish structural support (or a floor above),
but really, it it quite unstable, and concrete or block piers
make a lot more sense, and be more economically.  Many
of those ideas come from people who have little or no
practical experience.   Rocks are bummer to work with.
They are inconsistent.  And, they usually arrive mixed with
lots of dirt. Getting clean stone into a heat storage is either
extremely labor intensive, or expensive, or both.    Then,
there are the smell and mold related issues.   It only took
me three rock bin storages, before I become focused on
finding a better system.  That was 28 years ago...I've not
used rock since.

> This was for heat, as for cold you really need
> a phase change material to make much sense.

  That depend on the usage.  I am getting excellent
results using water for space cooling.        But, for
refrigeration, water is excellent, in it phase change
properties.     Due to the simple, and what should
be the obvious advantage of being the same material
that comprises most of our foods, water, with most
of its heat absorption at its melting temperature, is
not going to freeze the foods, and potentially damage
them.  Also the 32°F temperature is about ideal for
keeping a refrigerator in, or close to, the ideal
refrigerator temperature range, of 36-41°F.

> I don't have the energy or the interest to re-research this
> and I don't remember the exact numbers, but my foggy
> memory tells me concrete was something like 3 times
> better than water.

    No, you have it backwards.  Concrete has only a little
more than a third the volumetric thermal capacity of water.
And since, it will not absorb and release heat as well,
its functional capacity is usually well under a third.

> Of course, it can cause complications in design and use
> of a storage volume.

Using concrete, is many times more expensive than can
be achieved with water.  When it comes down to it, just
like in just about every other product comparison, the
bottom line is the bottom line. It is easy to design things
that work.   Only an incompetent does not achieve that.
But, that is only the lowest standard, of achievement.
The real design challenge, is to produce houses, that
will heat, cool, and power themselves naturally, for
free or close, and will cost no more to build, than
standard practice houses. That is the only thing that
makes it satisfying, at least for me. It appears that a
lot of designers like spending other people's money.
I would be a lot more successful,  if I also had that
compulsion. But, my "game" is to design self-heating
and self-cooling houses, that cost the same as standard
house, regardless of the process used to build them.
In other words, if someone wants a builder to hand
them the keys to a finished mansion, with gold plated
toilets (I don't think I will personally ever be able to
stomach designing such a thing) a Thermal Attic
version, that heats and cools itself, naturally, should
cost the same as one that needs an elaborate, and
expensive ground source heat pump system, that
will waste energy for the life of the house. And also,
someone who is building a LittleHouse, with their
own labor, mostly salvaged materials, and a near
impossible, out-of-pocket budget, can also build
their house, with a Thermal Attic, so that it too,
will naturally self-heat and self-cool.   The key is
that the natural heating and cooling functions, are
so deeply integrated into the general design of the
building, that they cost less than the heating system
of a standard practice building.

> Who wants to be pumping water with small grains
> of granite in it.

There would be no reason for that, and a list of reasons
why not to do it.

> And for cold, well, it is really not a good choice at all.

  Again, your definition of "cold" is a critical factor.
But for refrigerator temperatures, plain ole water,
is as good as it gets for "storing "cold""

   As usual, I want to emphasize that the effect of bringing
cold air or cold water into the living space, MUST always
be considered, when evaluating the efficacy of an alternative
refrigeration system.  Compressor refrigerators recycle their
heat, back into the living space, while also adding the energy,
used to power the compressor, to the living space.    They
are, effectively, electric heaters.   Using outdoor, or stored
cold, for refrigeration, has just the opposite effect on the
space heating load of the building.  You may reduce your
amount of electricity, needed to power the refrigerator,
but your space heating costs, will increase.  Beating the
new, high efficiency compressor refrigerators, is tough.
And, it is getting tougher, every year.   I think that an
area that has been relatively unexplored, so far, on
RefrigeratorAlternatives, is the refrigerator interior.
It looks like there are several simple options that
could significantly reduce energy usage.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

Laren, just a guess, but I am thinking that this reader is talking about PCM's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_change_material

I did some minor research on these a while ago.   I was really looking for
something with the same capacity as ice, but at a higher temp, say phase change
at 34 degrees or so.  Never found one that made sense.   What I would love to
see is a phase change material, preferably one that is primarily water, that
would change at, say, 140 degrees F and had the same capacity as the original
water and not an environmental hazard/poison etc.   The PCM's that I have seen
that melt at these temps are generally waxes, and do not have a high capacity.

I am sure you know this, but thought I would bring it up for those that don't.  
As for the use of water rather than granite for heat storage, by volume, granite
is better than water, as is bricks, concrete, etc.    I don't know if anyone
used it commercially, but experimental units were made using concrete as the
bulk of the storage and water as the transfer medium. (yes, I know of the solar
hot air units that used stone only, but am unaware of stone/water hybrid units)
This was for heat, as for cold you really need a phase change material to make
much sense.   I don't have the energy or the interest to re-research this and I
don't remember the exact numbers, but my foggy memory tells me concrete was
something like 3 times better than water.   Of course, it can cause
complications in design and use of a storage volume.   Who wants to be pumping
water with small grains of granite in it.   And for cold, well, it is really not
a good choice at all.

OK, I found info on the GE GSH25JFREWW.

http://www.appliancepartspros.com/partsearch/model.aspx?model_id=5216306&diagram\
_id=23512431#d23512431

The condensor (cooling) coil is in the bottom of the refrigerator, and
there is no sign the walls or top of the unit are used as heat exchange
surfaces.  The close clearances in the installation instructions tend to
support that as well.  So, putting additional insulation around the
sides might have some value.  Insulation on top would presumably have a
lesser beneficial effect.

The DC motor suggests variable speed operation.  Easier to do this with
DC than AC for small units so far (fewer parameters to control, so less
logic and circuitry required).

Batteries are relatively expensive, and seem an unnecessary complication
   when the big draws (compressor) will still operate on AC.  Unless you
plan to have a big battery bank anyway, and run the rest of the
fridge/freezer via an inverter.  I don't see a separate rectifier or
motor controller in the parts list, so I'm assuming they're on the
mother board.  If that's the case, unlikely the DC motor draws much
power, the big components just don't appear to be there.

I have the Kill-A-Watt P3 (older item).  I expect the more recent models
will do just as well.

The other bit of research I would do in your place is compare the Energy
Star data for your model versus a similar basic model to get a sense of
how much energy is going to providing the cooling of the interior, and
how much is going to the water chiller and ice maker.  I think the
answer to that will shape your actions.

Darryl

ws25329 wrote:
> It's a GSH25JFREWW I looked up some diagrams on partsselect and it
> appears to have a condenser coil in the bottom of the fridge with a
> dc fan blowing through the coil.  A fancy computerized controller
> board - so mabe it is a variable speed compressor/fan unit?
> Interesting that the parts list says DC fan, would the compressor
> motor be possibly DC as well, or if it's variable speed would they
> vary AC frequency or just vary DC voltage to the compressor to run it
> fast and slow?  I don't know, just curious, and next question, if DC
> then what voltage, could it possibly be driven off batteries direct
> with DC? :-) I don't want to tear it up, since it's what we keep food
> in for our family of five, BUT if I could insulate sides, top, back,
> it might help.  Looking at kill a watt's on ebay.
>
> --- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, Darryl McMahon
> <darryl@...> wrote:
>> Given your refrigerator/freezer is just 2 years old, it should be
>> using a reasonably efficient compressor technology. If it were 15
>> years old or more, my first recommendation would have been to
>> replace it.
>>
>> The 11.2 amps on the label is a maximum power draw figure.  This is
>> not the continuous power it draws.  I think you should find out how
>> big a problem you are really facing before taking further action.
>> I recommend using a Kill-A-Watt meter or similar appliance power
>> monitor to find out how much electricity it is really drawing
>> before deciding on a course of action (or not).
>>
>> Is your unit something like this?
>>
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PS\
DF5YGXWW
>>
>>
>> If you could provide the model number, perhaps we could find more
>> precise information.
>>
>> Odds are it uses the sides and possibly the top of the box as it's
>> heat exchange surfaces.  Unless there are condensor coils on the
>> back of the unit, this is almost certainly the case.  If the sides
>> and top are the heat exchange surfaces, covering them will be
>> detrimental, not helpful.
>>
>> The one surface you might be able to cover without detriment is the
>>  door.  Then cover the insulation with a magnetic whiteboard for
>> use as a message centre.
>>
>> As I have stated before on this forum, it you want to add external
>>  insulation to advantage on a refrigerator or freezer, put it under
>> the unit.  That will slow the convection of heat from the floor
>> through air into the unit.  Warmer air rises.  Use your insulation
>> to retard that air flow.  It is almost certain that the floor below
>> your refrigerator is warmer than the temperature you are trying to
>> maintain inside the box.
>>
>> Darryl McMahon
>>
>> ws25329 wrote:
>>> I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional
>>> refrigerator.  Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side
>>> freezer/fridge, feeling the sides it is much colder on the
>>> freezer side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to be on the
>>> bottom. Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help
>>> reduce the compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive
>>> to attach something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3
>>> residential sheathing?  How much, and it would be better if it
>>> was a semi-rigid type so I could spray paint it white after the
>>> insulation job, so not to completely destroy my wife's decor in
>>> the kitchen with a big blue monster box fridge ;-)
>>>
>>> Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast
>>> off batteries and an inverter? The label inside the door says
>>> 11.2 amps. At 120v means I would need 1244 watts, or a 1500 watt
>>> inverter? That seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the
>>> icemaker/crusher motor or defrost heater for the icemaker the
>>> culprit?  It only has two adjustments, one for freezer temp and
>>> one for fridge temp.  Vents under the front, and a small vented
>>> panel in the back at the bottom. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Thanks, William
>>>
>>
>> -- Darryl McMahon
>>
>> The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
>> http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
>>
>> Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Darryl McMahon

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe

IF YOU LOVE  MICHIGAN AND THE GREAT LAKES -

WE ASK FOR YOUR HELP!

(It doesn't matter where you live).

BACKGROUND:

Wolverine Power is planning a 600 MW coal burning power plant in our quarry
at Rogers City, Mi.  The Michigan Public Service Commission said it is not
needed.  But the plan is still afloat at the MDEQ.

Presque Isle County Commissioners (Rogers City) approved (10-13-09)  a
Resolution of Support to locate the Wolverine COAL ASH LANDFILL IN THE SAME
QUARRY. They then sent the Resolution to the MI DEQ.

The quarry is next to Lake Huron and is located in an area of vast
inter-connected water aquifers. With no chemical analysis of the coal ash,
there is a huge risk here.   EPA now lists 584 U.S. coal ash dumpsites
which pose cancer and health risks.

We believe Wolverine is pressing hard NOW to get their MI permits quickly,
thereby grandfathering the landfill into their plans BEFORE EPA federal
regulations on coal ash appear around December 30, 2009.

                             ** *TWO THINGS YOU CAN DO***

1.  PLEASE object strongly to this landfill with an e-mail ASAP.  Use your
own words, even  three sentences would work.  Include your name and
address. Direct the email to:

Jim Sygo
Deputy Director
MI Dept. of Environmental Quality
sygoj@...

2.  PLEASE forward this basic communication to three people you trust who
will care and react.  We want to build momentum.

Thank you so very much.

Sincerely,
Jean Veselenak
Retired Second Grade Teacher
267 S. Lake St
Rogers City, MI 49779

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

On ebay saw several model P4400.  Is that typical of what everyone uses?  Around
$23 with shipping.  I have not done indepth research to see if anyone has them
cheaper.  I do have a cheapie radio shack non contact IR thermometer, got it on
clearance for about $5.  It seems to work ok, but never tried it on cold stuff,
usually use it on a diesel engine to look and see what cylinders are not getting
hot from a cold crank, to try and figure out which ones are not firing/miss
firing.  Works pretty well, and if I haven't loaned it out will have to try it
on the fridge.
Is simply measuring surface temperature and compare to say a wall or something
close by as ambient a good estimate of how effective insulation is on a
fridge/freezer?
This would make a really good experiment on saving electricity.  We're like
everyone else, we MUST save electricity, the bill is just too high and we can't
pay it anymore :-)

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, "bizboy22" <bizboy22@...>
wrote:
>
> William,
> Your mention of the vents in the front and a little one in the back would make
me hesitate to insulate the bottom.  Can you pull off the vent under the door
and see if there are any coils there?  If there are, keep them clean with a
bottle brush.  For a few bucks you can buy a little non-contact infrared
thermometer.  (Harbor Freight Tools) These are amazing accurate and you can tell
the difference in temps on surfaces as small as a dime.  You can tape a piece of
insulation to your refrigerator and read the temp diff.
>
> I definitely agree with Darryl that using a Kill a Watt meter is the best
first tactic.  Some utilities loan these for free.  They cost less than $25.
>
> Using the Kill a Watt meter, you may find there are many other more cost
effective ways of saving energy, check all those little power thief's like
chargers, "off" computers, etc.
>
> If you have an electric hot water heater, there is a substantial energy
savings placing thick foam insulation under it, especially if it is on a
basement concrete floor.
> Zard
>
>
> --- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, Darryl McMahon <darryl@>
wrote:
> >
> > Given your refrigerator/freezer is just 2 years old, it should be using
> > a reasonably efficient compressor technology. If it were 15 years old or
> > more, my first recommendation would have been to replace it.
> >
> > The 11.2 amps on the label is a maximum power draw figure.  This is not
> > the continuous power it draws.  I think you should find out how big a
> > problem you are really facing before taking further action.  I recommend
> > using a Kill-A-Watt meter or similar appliance power monitor to find out
> > how much electricity it is really drawing before deciding on a course of
> > action (or not).
> >
> > Is your unit something like this?
> >
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PS\
DF5YGXWW
> >
> > If you could provide the model number, perhaps we could find more
> > precise information.
> >
> > Odds are it uses the sides and possibly the top of the box as it's heat
> > exchange surfaces.  Unless there are condensor coils on the back of the
> > unit, this is almost certainly the case.  If the sides and top are the
> > heat exchange surfaces, covering them will be detrimental, not helpful.
> >
> > The one surface you might be able to cover without detriment is the
> > door.  Then cover the insulation with a magnetic whiteboard for use as a
> > message centre.
> >
> > As I have stated before on this forum, it you want to add external
> > insulation to advantage on a refrigerator or freezer, put it under the
> > unit.  That will slow the convection of heat from the floor through air
> > into the unit.  Warmer air rises.  Use your insulation to retard that
> > air flow.  It is almost certain that the floor below your refrigerator
> > is warmer than the temperature you are trying to maintain inside the box.
> >
> > Darryl McMahon
> >
> > ws25329 wrote:
> > > I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional
> > > refrigerator.  Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side
> > > freezer/fridge, feeling the sides it is much colder on the freezer
> > > side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to be on the bottom.
> > > Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help reduce the
> > > compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
> > > something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential
> > > sheathing?  How much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid
> > > type so I could spray paint it white after the insulation job, so not
> > > to completely destroy my wife's decor in the kitchen with a big blue
> > > monster box fridge ;-)
> > >
> > > Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off
> > > batteries and an inverter? The label inside the door says 11.2 amps.
> > > At 120v means I would need 1244 watts, or a 1500 watt inverter? That
> > > seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor
> > > or defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two
> > > adjustments, one for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents
> > > under the front, and a small vented panel in the back at the bottom.
> > > Any ideas?
> > >
> > > Thanks, William
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Darryl McMahon
> >
> > The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
> > http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
> >
> > Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe
> >
>

It's a GSH25JFREWW
I looked up some diagrams on partsselect and it appears to have a condenser coil
in the bottom of the fridge with a dc fan blowing through the coil.  A fancy
computerized controller board - so mabe it is a variable speed compressor/fan
unit?  Interesting that the parts list says DC fan, would the compressor motor
be possibly DC as well, or if it's variable speed would they vary AC frequency
or just vary DC voltage to the compressor to run it fast and slow?  I don't
know, just curious, and next question, if DC then what voltage, could it
possibly be driven off batteries direct with DC? :-)
I don't want to tear it up, since it's what we keep food in for our family of
five, BUT if I could insulate sides, top, back, it might help.  Looking at kill
a watt's on ebay.

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, Darryl McMahon <darryl@...>
wrote:
>
> Given your refrigerator/freezer is just 2 years old, it should be using
> a reasonably efficient compressor technology. If it were 15 years old or
> more, my first recommendation would have been to replace it.
>
> The 11.2 amps on the label is a maximum power draw figure.  This is not
> the continuous power it draws.  I think you should find out how big a
> problem you are really facing before taking further action.  I recommend
> using a Kill-A-Watt meter or similar appliance power monitor to find out
> how much electricity it is really drawing before deciding on a course of
> action (or not).
>
> Is your unit something like this?
>
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PS\
DF5YGXWW
>
> If you could provide the model number, perhaps we could find more
> precise information.
>
> Odds are it uses the sides and possibly the top of the box as it's heat
> exchange surfaces.  Unless there are condensor coils on the back of the
> unit, this is almost certainly the case.  If the sides and top are the
> heat exchange surfaces, covering them will be detrimental, not helpful.
>
> The one surface you might be able to cover without detriment is the
> door.  Then cover the insulation with a magnetic whiteboard for use as a
> message centre.
>
> As I have stated before on this forum, it you want to add external
> insulation to advantage on a refrigerator or freezer, put it under the
> unit.  That will slow the convection of heat from the floor through air
> into the unit.  Warmer air rises.  Use your insulation to retard that
> air flow.  It is almost certain that the floor below your refrigerator
> is warmer than the temperature you are trying to maintain inside the box.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>
> ws25329 wrote:
> > I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional
> > refrigerator.  Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side
> > freezer/fridge, feeling the sides it is much colder on the freezer
> > side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to be on the bottom.
> > Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help reduce the
> > compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
> > something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential
> > sheathing?  How much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid
> > type so I could spray paint it white after the insulation job, so not
> > to completely destroy my wife's decor in the kitchen with a big blue
> > monster box fridge ;-)
> >
> > Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off
> > batteries and an inverter? The label inside the door says 11.2 amps.
> > At 120v means I would need 1244 watts, or a 1500 watt inverter? That
> > seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor
> > or defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two
> > adjustments, one for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents
> > under the front, and a small vented panel in the back at the bottom.
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks, William
> >
>
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
>
> The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
> http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
>
> Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe
>

William,
Your mention of the vents in the front and a little one in the back would make
me hesitate to insulate the bottom.  Can you pull off the vent under the door
and see if there are any coils there?  If there are, keep them clean with a
bottle brush.  For a few bucks you can buy a little non-contact infrared
thermometer.  (Harbor Freight Tools) These are amazing accurate and you can tell
the difference in temps on surfaces as small as a dime.  You can tape a piece of
insulation to your refrigerator and read the temp diff.

I definitely agree with Darryl that using a Kill a Watt meter is the best first
tactic.  Some utilities loan these for free.  They cost less than $25.

Using the Kill a Watt meter, you may find there are many other more cost
effective ways of saving energy, check all those little power thief's like
chargers, "off" computers, etc.

If you have an electric hot water heater, there is a substantial energy savings
placing thick foam insulation under it, especially if it is on a basement
concrete floor.
Zard


--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, Darryl McMahon <darryl@...>
wrote:
>
> Given your refrigerator/freezer is just 2 years old, it should be using
> a reasonably efficient compressor technology. If it were 15 years old or
> more, my first recommendation would have been to replace it.
>
> The 11.2 amps on the label is a maximum power draw figure.  This is not
> the continuous power it draws.  I think you should find out how big a
> problem you are really facing before taking further action.  I recommend
> using a Kill-A-Watt meter or similar appliance power monitor to find out
> how much electricity it is really drawing before deciding on a course of
> action (or not).
>
> Is your unit something like this?
>
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PS\
DF5YGXWW
>
> If you could provide the model number, perhaps we could find more
> precise information.
>
> Odds are it uses the sides and possibly the top of the box as it's heat
> exchange surfaces.  Unless there are condensor coils on the back of the
> unit, this is almost certainly the case.  If the sides and top are the
> heat exchange surfaces, covering them will be detrimental, not helpful.
>
> The one surface you might be able to cover without detriment is the
> door.  Then cover the insulation with a magnetic whiteboard for use as a
> message centre.
>
> As I have stated before on this forum, it you want to add external
> insulation to advantage on a refrigerator or freezer, put it under the
> unit.  That will slow the convection of heat from the floor through air
> into the unit.  Warmer air rises.  Use your insulation to retard that
> air flow.  It is almost certain that the floor below your refrigerator
> is warmer than the temperature you are trying to maintain inside the box.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>
> ws25329 wrote:
> > I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional
> > refrigerator.  Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side
> > freezer/fridge, feeling the sides it is much colder on the freezer
> > side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to be on the bottom.
> > Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help reduce the
> > compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
> > something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential
> > sheathing?  How much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid
> > type so I could spray paint it white after the insulation job, so not
> > to completely destroy my wife's decor in the kitchen with a big blue
> > monster box fridge ;-)
> >
> > Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off
> > batteries and an inverter? The label inside the door says 11.2 amps.
> > At 120v means I would need 1244 watts, or a 1500 watt inverter? That
> > seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor
> > or defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two
> > adjustments, one for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents
> > under the front, and a small vented panel in the back at the bottom.
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks, William
> >
>
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon
>
> The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
> http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
>
> Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe
>

Something happened that compressed the end of my last post.
Hopefully that will not happen, this time, and this will be
easier to read..........

More information about propylene glycol...........

  Freezing temperature -74°F

Mixed with water, the water will freeze at various temperatures


  Freezing Points of Propylene Glycol -

Water Mixtures Percent

Propylene Glycol (wt. %)    Freezing Point (°F)

         0                                         32
       10                                        26
       20                                        20
       30                                        10
       36                                         0
       40                                       -5
       43                                     -10
       48                                     -20
       52                                     -30
       55                                     -40
       58                                     -50
       60                                     -60

Here is a link that show somewhat different numbers
than above. It also shows specific heat numbers, etc.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propylene-glycol-d_363.html

Of course, as you reduce the percentage of water, replacing
it with ethylene glycol, which does not freeze, the thermal storage
capacity, in terms of latent heat storage is proportionately reduced.
The sensible heat storage capacity of propylene glycol is also less
than that of water, so it is easy to see that propylene glycol has
less thermal storage capacity than water.

Let's look at an example.

I will take -5°F since that is in the freezer range

That will give us 60% water, and 40% propylene glycol.

Let's use 1gal liquid.

We have 8.33 x 0.6 = 5.00lb of water
Freezing will extract 5 x143 = 715BTU
and lower the temperature to -5F will
extract another 37 x 5 = 185BTU,
for a grant total of 900BTU of cooling
(for just the water)

If the whole gallon were water, it would
supply 900/0.6 = 1500BTU of cooling

The 40% propylene glycol is trickier,
because I have to look up some numbers.

Specific gravity (40% solution) 1.034
Specific heat (40% solution)     0.8951

.034 x 0.895 = 0.925

Sensible heat 8.33 x 0.924 x 37 =   285BTU
Latent heat  (60% water)           15BTU
Total                                      1000BTU

1000/1500 = 66.67%

So, a 40% propylene glycol mix stores a third
less "cold" for use at 32F (an ideal temperature
for cooling a refrigerator) than straight water.
If, the PG mix is not cooled all the way down
to -5°F (where is will absorb heat at a faster,
and declining rate) its cooling capacity would
be radically diminished (by not freezing).   A
lower percentage mix, will do better, but still
not as good as straight water.

So, that covers standard "blue ice" which is not
nearly as good  at "storing "cold"" as plain old water is.

Howard......tell us the material you are referring to,
so that we can research it?  This is a friendly, polite
request. You brought up the subject. Please provide
more information, so that we can learn from your
knowledge.   That is what this group i s here for.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

From: "Stone Tool" <owly@...>

> Laren:
> Do your own research.....

Hello Howard;

I did, and was unable to find anything regarding what you
said.   So, I thought I would ask for your help, since you
claim to have that knowledge.    I did not expect such a
rude response to my simple question, about something
that you had brought up.   Such responses are not up
to the standard of behavior expected on this forum.

> I used the term Blue Ice, knowing it to be a brand name.....

  What you said is (quote)

>>  There has been very little talk of using "engineered "
>> change of state" fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy.
>>  It makes sense to store energy in this form when you have
>> surplus generation capacity rather than storing it in batteries
>> for later use for refrigeration.

>> There is a whole range of NON-Consumer products used in
>> the medical and other industries which similarly freeze at specific
>> lower temps

  Please provide a link to some basic information about
these "NON-Consumer products"  They sound very
interesting.

>  or higher temps......... or very high temps, that are specifically
> engineered to store cold or heat in larger amounts through
> heat of fusion principles.

  Please name or provide a link, to ones that "store cold"

>  Your apparent assertion that nothing outperforms
> water or water and salt if for you to prove.

  You brought up the subject, claiming, in reference to such
materials, that (quote) "It makes sense to store energy in
this form"  Will you please provide more information about
"this form", like what "form" that is?.      I am quite good at
internet search, and have been unable to find the information.
Please, help us out here.  I am not trying to prove you wrong.
I am asking for information, about a subject that you brought
up, and the material that you introduced into our discussion.
I hope you are right.  It could open up new possibilities.
So, help me out here, with some better information.

> ....not for me to disprove.

  You are the only one who can explain what you are talking
  about. Tell us what material you meant, and I will research it.
  I can't research it, while you are keeping its identity as secret.
  I am not in a position to be able to do anything beyond asking
you what material you are were referring to.

>  The internet is full of information which is just as easily
> available to you as it is to me.

  But, you won't tell us what to look for.  What is this material
that you were referring to.  We don't know what to research,
until you get more specific.

>  The heat of fusion of water is considerable as is it's specific heat.
> ... but there are materials that out perform it.

  Help us out here.  Please share your knowledge with us,
  by naming the material that you were referring to.

>   Someone needs to tell the solar heat folks that water
> has 8 times the specific heat per pound as granite.

  They already know that the correct number is about 5.26,
  not 8 (specific heat of granite is 0.19, not 0.125).  I do
not think anyone should be telling them something that
is inaccurate, by about 50%

> It's cheap, versatile, and readily available.

  Yes, water is.  Most Solar storages use water.
  I use water in my own Thermal Attic houses.
The use of granite/stone, as Solar heat storage,
is pretty much a relic of the past.     However,
I have never heard of anyone using granite to
  "store cold" (though it is technically possible)

So, lets get back on topic.

>  For the application we were talking about.....  storing cold
> while there is solar or wind power available rather than storing
> energy in batteries to run a refrigerator at a later date. a solution
> of water and salt or alcohol, or antifreeze, adjusted to freeze at
> a lower temperature is probably the most cost effective solution.

  That is what I said........

   But what you said was different.  You said: (quote)

>>  There has been very little talk of using "engineered "change
>> of state" fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy.
>>  It makes sense to store energy in this form when you have
>> surplus generation capacity rather than storing it in batteries
>> for later use for refrigeration.

>   Your statements suggesting that all "engineered fluids" are
> simply table salt and water, and that nothing outperforms
> water are simply ignorant...

   I did not say that. I said that blue ice appears to be that.

Okay, I hear your insult, that my opinion is "simply ignorant"
And, as the owner and moderator of this group, I am going
to warn you that I will not make exception, and allow that
kind of attack, just because it is aimed at me.   I do tend to
be a little more tolerant, in that case, than when other group
members are insulted, like you are attempting to do.  But,
I will only tolerate so much anti-social posting, insults, and
name calling, before a take serious action.  So, consider
this to be an official warning, to stop the insults.   You are
smart enough to know what is rude, and to conduct
yourself in a civil manner.  We can discuss these things,
and even out-and-out disagree, without digressing into
personal attacks.   I expect better from you.

     However, back to the message behind your insult.
If you disagree with my thought, that water is the best
way to "store cold" for refrigerator temperatures, than
you can make yourself look knowledgably, and me look
"simply ignorant",  by naming the better material, that
you have already claimed exists.    I am often "simply
ignorant"    That is why I spend many hours, virtually
every day, studying things that I am "simply ignorant"
about.   If this is one of them, I humbly beg you to
please share your superior knowledge, so that
I might no longer be "simply ignorant" about it.

>..and  that's your problem, not mine.

Perhaps it is.  So please, help me find out.
What is this "engineered fluid" that you refer to?

   I am in more control of the situation than you are,
and the efficacy of water, for such purposes is well
established, so from here, it looks like your problem.
However, I am quite open to the possibility that it
could be my problem. I am just seeking knowledge.
The purpose of this group is to share information.
This group is not about rudely telling others to (quote)
"Do your own research....."  Or making up thing that
they never said, just to refer to them as "simply ignorant"
The purpose of this group is to share knowledge.

  So....share..

> Let's stick to the subject of storing cold and drop the food fight.

  That makes sense.   So, what is this material?

I will share some information.................

  This link , supplied by "riftalope" says that Rubbermaid "Blue Ice"
  uses propylene glycol (environmental antifreeze, which is even
used as a food additive)  so, we can look up the properties
of this chemical.

  <
 
http://74.125.95.132/search?=cache:ex95hb5eYG0J:www.vistalab.com/Resources/Docum\
ent%520Categories/MSDS%520Sheets/RRCooler.pdf+rubbermaid+blue+ice+ingredients&cd\
=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=usFurther information about propylene glycol...........
Freezing temperature -74°F Mixed with water, the water will freeze at various
temperatures Freezing Points of Propylene Glycol - Water Mixtures Percent
Propylene Glycol (wt. %)    Freezing Point (°F)        0
32      10                              26      20                             
20      30                             10      36                              0
40                             -5      43                           -10      48
-20      52                           -30      55                           -40
58                           -50      60                           -60 Here is a
link that show somewhat different numbers than above. It also shows specific
  heat numbers, etc.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propylene-glycol-d_363.html   Of course, as
you reduce the percentage of water, replacing it with ethylene glycol, which
does not freeze, the thermal storage capacity, in terms of latent heat storage
is proportionately reduced. The sensible heat storage capacity of propylene
glycol is also less than that of water, so it is easy to see that propylene
glycol has less thermal storage capacity than water.Let's look at an example.I
will take -5°F since that is in the freezer rangeThat will give us 60% water,
and 40% propylene glycol.Let's use 1gal liquid.We have 8.33 x 0.6 = 5.00lb of
waterFreezing will extract 5 x143 = 715BTUand lower the temperature to -5F
willextract another 37 x 5 = 185BTU,for a grant total of 900BTU of cooling(for
just the water)If the whole gallon were water, it wouldsupply 900/0.6 = 1500BTU
of coolingThe 40% propylene glycol is trickier,because I have to look up some
numbers..Specific gravity (40% soluti
  on) 1.034Specific heat (40% solution)     0.8951.034 x 0.895 = 0.925Sensible
heat 8.33 x 0.924 x 37 =   285BTULatent heat  (60% water)               
715BTUTotal                                            1000BTU1000/1500 = 66.67%
So, a 40% propylene glycol mix stores a thirdless "cold" for use at 32F (an
ideal temperaturefor cooling a refrigerator) than straight water.If, the PG mix
is not cooled all the way downto -5°F (where is will absorb heat at a faster,and
declining rate) its cooling capacity wouldbe radically diminished (by not
freezing).   Alower percentage mix, will do better, but stillnot as good as
straight water.    So, that covers standard "blue ice" which is notnearly as
good  at "storing "cold"" as plain old water is.Howard......tell us the material
you are referring to,so that we can research it?  This is a friendly,
politerequest. You brought up the subject. Please providemore information, so
that we can learn from yourknowledge.   That is what this group i
  s here for. -Laren Corie- Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com Read my Solar house design articles in: -Energy
Self-Sufficiency Newsletter- www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html Home base-LittleHouses
YahooGroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/ Founder-WoodGas - Power
from wood http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives
YahooGroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

Given your refrigerator/freezer is just 2 years old, it should be using
a reasonably efficient compressor technology. If it were 15 years old or
more, my first recommendation would have been to replace it.

The 11.2 amps on the label is a maximum power draw figure.  This is not
the continuous power it draws.  I think you should find out how big a
problem you are really facing before taking further action.  I recommend
using a Kill-A-Watt meter or similar appliance power monitor to find out
how much electricity it is really drawing before deciding on a course of
action (or not).

Is your unit something like this?
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PS\
DF5YGXWW

If you could provide the model number, perhaps we could find more
precise information.

Odds are it uses the sides and possibly the top of the box as it's heat
exchange surfaces.  Unless there are condensor coils on the back of the
unit, this is almost certainly the case.  If the sides and top are the
heat exchange surfaces, covering them will be detrimental, not helpful.

The one surface you might be able to cover without detriment is the
door.  Then cover the insulation with a magnetic whiteboard for use as a
message centre.

As I have stated before on this forum, it you want to add external
insulation to advantage on a refrigerator or freezer, put it under the
unit.  That will slow the convection of heat from the floor through air
into the unit.  Warmer air rises.  Use your insulation to retard that
air flow.  It is almost certain that the floor below your refrigerator
is warmer than the temperature you are trying to maintain inside the box.

Darryl McMahon

ws25329 wrote:
> I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional
> refrigerator.  Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side
> freezer/fridge, feeling the sides it is much colder on the freezer
> side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to be on the bottom.
> Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help reduce the
> compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
> something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential
> sheathing?  How much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid
> type so I could spray paint it white after the insulation job, so not
> to completely destroy my wife's decor in the kitchen with a big blue
> monster box fridge ;-)
>
> Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off
> batteries and an inverter? The label inside the door says 11.2 amps.
> At 120v means I would need 1244 watts, or a 1500 watt inverter? That
> seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor
> or defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two
> adjustments, one for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents
> under the front, and a small vented panel in the back at the bottom.
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks, William
>


--
Darryl McMahon

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

Journey to Forever reviews The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#tenhe

That depends on what you are looking at. If you want to keep the old habits I
don't think you will pull it off. But if you only open the darn thing 6 times a
day you should be Fine without a chest. Chest conversions are a pain in the
butt…. Can you say bend over? That means that you think before you open the door
get what you need for dinner, then close the door and replace the unused stuff
all at one time. You also cant do the "stick hot stuff back in" with any solar
setup unless you have a Huge amount of solar.

I added 2 inches on all 6 sides of a late 1980s Kenmore freezer on the bottom,
then covered the entire fridge with Wainscots and finished it to match the
cabinets. At that time I did not have children and checked the results before
and after with a sangamo Kwh meter. The results beat a new energy star fridge.
And it looked good too. IF you try it don forget a second door seal and bigger
magnets to overcome the extra tension of the second seal. I also had to
re-enforce the handle that I yanked of the door.
  Then came along a wife and later two kids. For some reason they have the
impression that the second door that gets opened after school is the fridge and
that the contents are almost as impressive as the cartoon network. To solve that
problem I did the same thing to a small dorm fridge to hold the crap that all
the kids are staring at like soda condiments and sandwich stuff. Currently the
power consumption for both appliances is far less than what I started with.

BUT in no way are they equivalent to a converted chest freezer. You don't have
all the cold spilling on the floor when you open the door. You also have to
fabricate and install hinges to clear the extra insulation. I was lucky; the
compressor had enough slack in the plumbing to move out of the way. Another
thing I did was enclosing the bottom freezer door so that it would hold the cold
in when I was grabbing items out of the freezer.

I think that most people forget that energy star or not a freezer is insulated
more than a fridg.


--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, "ws25329" <ws25329@...> wrote:
>
> I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional refrigerator. 
Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side freezer/fridge, feeling the sides
it is much colder on the freezer side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to
be on the bottom.  Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help
reduce the compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential sheathing?  How
much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid type so I could spray paint
it white after the insulation job, so not to completely destroy my wife's decor
in the kitchen with a big blue monster box fridge ;-)
>
> Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off batteries
and an inverter?
> The label inside the door says 11.2 amps. At 120v means I would need 1244
watts, or a 1500 watt inverter?
> That seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor or
defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two adjustments, one
for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents under the front, and a small
vented panel in the back at the bottom.  Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> William
>

I've read some conflicting views on insulating a conventional refrigerator. 
Looking at ours, a 2 year old GE side by side freezer/fridge, feeling the sides
it is much colder on the freezer side than the fridge side.  Coils/fan seem to
be on the bottom.  Would adding an inch or so insulation on all sides help
reduce the compressor cycle time?  How about using spray adhesive to attach
something like the 1/2" blue board styrofoam  R-3 residential sheathing?  How
much, and it would be better if it was a semi-rigid type so I could spray paint
it white after the insulation job, so not to completely destroy my wife's decor
in the kitchen with a big blue monster box fridge ;-)

Given the label specs, is there any hope of running this beast off batteries and
an inverter?
The label inside the door says 11.2 amps. At 120v means I would need 1244 watts,
or a 1500 watt inverter?
That seems excessive for just a fridge - or is the icemaker/crusher motor or
defrost heater for the icemaker the culprit?  It only has two adjustments, one
for freezer temp and one for fridge temp.  Vents under the front, and a small
vented panel in the back at the bottom.  Any ideas?

Thanks,
William

When you want to know the content of a patented chemical product search for the
MSDS. You won't get the full percents. Just the primary components. (Did you
know Rubbermaid uses 10% recycled plastic to contain Blue Ice?)

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:ex95hb5eYG0J:www.vistalab.com/Resources/Docu\
ment%2520Categories/MSDS%2520Sheets/RRCooler.pdf+rubbermaid+blue+ice+ingredients\
&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, Stone Tool <owly@...> wrote:
>
> Laren:
>  Do your own research.....
>
> I used the term Blue Ice, knowing it to be a brand name..... because it
> is what people are familiar with.

Laren:
	 Do your own research.....

I used the term Blue Ice, knowing it to be a brand name..... because it
is what people are familiar with.  It is a common consumer product which
is not very impressive.... a convenience product you can by at Walmart
or wherever....
	 There is a whole range of NON-Consumer products used in the medical and
other industries which similarly freeze at specific lower temps or
higher temps......... or very high temps, that are specifically
engineered to store cold or heat in larger amounts through heat of
fusion principles.  Your apparent assertion that nothing outperforms
water or water and salt if for you to prove.......not for me to
disprove.   The internet is full of information which is just as easily
available to you as it is to me.   The heat of fusion of water is
considerable as is it's specific heat..... but there are materials that
out perform it.  Someone needs to tell the solar heat folks that water
has 8 times the specific heat per pound as granite.  It's cheap,
versatile, and readily available.   For the application we were talking
about.....  storing cold while there is solar or wind power available
rather than storing energy in batteries to run a refrigerator at a later
date..... a solution of water and salt or alcohol, or antifreeze,
adjusted to freeze at a lower temperature is probably the most cost
effective solution.  Your statements suggesting that all "engineered
fluids" are simply table salt and water, and that nothing outperforms
water are simply ignorant.....and that's your problem, not mine.   Let's
stick to the subject of storing cold and drop the food fight.

	 Perhaps you missed your calling...... manufacturing salt water and
putting it in little containers for the medical industry to use for
shipping vaccines and bacterial cultures and such might be a good
business for you.

                                     Howard



LarenCorie wrote:
> From: "Stone Tool" <owly@...>
>
>> The term "blue ice" has become a generic term.... like Frigidair once
>> was......  A name for a whole range of products of a similar nature or
>> application.
>
> Hello Howard;
>
> "Blue Ice" is a brand name, of Rubbermaid, for packs of
> a fluid which appears to be nothing more than colored water,
> and probably a little salt.
>
>> While you can alter the freezing point of water in a number of ways,
>> there is a great deal deal more to achieving the maximum energy storage
>> in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and back.
>> I made the mistake of using the example of what everybody is familiar
>> with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I have no doubt is
>> exactly what  you describe........ But it is a mistake to lump all
>> engineered fluids into the same category.   Ordinary frozen water
>> absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing.... It is however
>> possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting temperature /
>> freezing temperature,
>
> That can be done with salt.
>
>> and to achieve a higher heat of fusion.
>
> Please supply evidence of that claim.
> What material is used that has greater
> latent heat of fusion, than water?
>
>>  The question is does it make economic sense?
>
> That is only one question.  Another, is "Does it exist?"
>
>> It does however offer a real potential of running
>> an actual freezer on "stored cold"
>
> That can be done, very economically, with brine.
>
>    Can you please define, and supply data for this
> "engineered fluid" that you have now posted about
> twice, without identifying, except by a name that
> only brings up a Rubbermaid product, which
> appears to be nothing more than colored
> water, and a little salt.
>
>> As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really......
>>  Designing the cooling and freezing compartments,
>> not only for max insulation but also to avoid
>> unnecessary heat absorption under open door
>> conditions.
>
> The problem is that the system costs more
> than the electricity that it is trying to offset.
>
>> Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
>> Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL
>> engineered fluids
>
>   What are these "REAL engineered fluids"?
> Please provide identification, and technical data...
>
>>  in the context of your own target objectives is an individual matter.
>
>> I frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know enough
>> about chemistry to know that there is potential here.
>
>     Please explain that potential.  That will require
> numbers, in order to back your statement that these
> yet unnamed "engineered fluids" have greater latent
> storage capacity than water.  Instead of just making
> unsubstantiated claims, that these magical fluids exist,
> how about some evidence.   I have not been able
> to find any.  How about helping us out here,
> with a little data, to back your claims?
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
> www.ThermalAttic.com
>
> Read my Solar house design articles in:
> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
> www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
>
> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/
>
> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas
>
> Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sometimes athletes mix rubbing alcohol with water and freeze it to make ice
packs with a lower freezing temperature.  I have no idea what effect that has on
the heat of fusion.  (Perhaps "blue ice" type products may use alcohol (in
addition / instead) of salt.)  That being said, the DIY'er may find some
advantage to considering the use of a water-alcohol mixture to adjust the
freezing point.

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, LarenCorie <larencorie@...> wrote:

> From: LarenCorie <larencorie@...>
> Subject: [RefrigeratorAlternatives] Re: storing "cold"
> To: RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 11:25 AM
> From: "Stone Tool" <owly@...>
>
> > The term "blue ice" has become a generic term.... like
> Frigidair once
> > was......  A name for a whole range of products
> of a similar nature or
> > application.
>
> Hello Howard;
>
> "Blue Ice" is a brand name, of Rubbermaid, for packs of
> a fluid which appears to be nothing more than colored
> water,
> and probably a little salt.
>
> > While you can alter the freezing point of water in a
> number of ways,
> > there is a great deal deal more to achieving the
> maximum energy storage
> > in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and
> back.
> > I made the mistake of using the example of what
> everybody is familiar
> > with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I
> have no doubt is
> > exactly what  you describe........ But it is a
> mistake to lump all
> > engineered fluids into the same
> category.   Ordinary frozen water
> > absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing....
> It is however
> > possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting
> temperature /
> > freezing temperature,
>
> That can be done with salt.
>
> > and to achieve a higher heat of fusion.
>
> Please supply evidence of that claim.
> What material is used that has greater
> latent heat of fusion, than water?
>
> >  The question is does it make economic sense?
>
> That is only one question.  Another, is "Does it
> exist?"
>
> > It does however offer a real potential of running
> > an actual freezer on "stored cold"
>
> That can be done, very economically, with brine.
>
>    Can you please define, and supply data
> for this
> "engineered fluid" that you have now posted about
> twice, without identifying, except by a name that
> only brings up a Rubbermaid product, which
> appears to be nothing more than colored
> water, and a little salt.
>
> > As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really......
> >  Designing the cooling and freezing
> compartments,
> > not only for max insulation but also to avoid
> > unnecessary heat absorption under open door
> > conditions.
>
> The problem is that the system costs more
> than the electricity that it is trying to offset.
>
> > Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
> > Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL
> > engineered fluids
>
>   What are these "REAL engineered fluids"?
> Please provide identification, and technical data...
>
> >  in the context of your own target objectives is
> an individual matter.
>
> > I frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know
> enough
> > about chemistry to know that there is potential here.
>
>     Please explain that potential.  That
> will require
> numbers, in order to back your statement that these
> yet unnamed "engineered fluids" have greater latent
> storage capacity than water.  Instead of just making
> unsubstantiated claims, that these magical fluids exist,
> how about some evidence.   I have not been
> able
> to find any.  How about helping us out here,
> with a little data, to back your claims?
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
> www.ThermalAttic.com
>
> Read my Solar house design articles in:
> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
> www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
>
> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/
>
> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas
>
> Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     RefrigeratorAlternatives-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

I am mainly concerned about mold. Because waterbeds can expand and contract
without breaking or leaking and they don't loose any water to evaporation. You
would get some condensate as the ice melts but that could be collected and
drained away.
I might could use something like a swimming pool liner sunk in the dirt with a
thick styrofoam cover. That might work.
I am not expecting miracles just to keep a small, well insulated, cabin cool
during the daytime for a couple of months in the summer. You are right of
course, the more mass in the ice the better. Building the cabin off grade and
spraying foam insulation on the underside of the floors is a good, relatively
new, idea too. Thanks.
John Davis
 
 

--- On Tue, 11/10/09, Stone Tool <owly@...> wrote:


From: Stone Tool <owly@...>
Subject: Re: [RefrigeratorAlternatives] Re: storing "cold"
To: RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 10:50 AM


 



John:
The real question in my mind is "why waterbeds?". Do the math on
volume and it is immediately clear that you can dig a fair size hole and
line it with something water tight and get a lot of capacity for little
investment. flat bottom, grade the sides at an angle so the ice can
expand upward easily, run your circulating lines right through the water
in the main tank. Water is 7.48 gallons per cubic foot. Take a hole
4' deep, by 16' x 16' and you have 7600 gallons of water. Dig the hole
prior to building the house, and have it sprayed with polyurethane
insulation to both insulate it away from the ground and seal the water
in in one swell foop. It probably also makes more sense to move the
cold outside air in rather than going through a double "heat
exchange"... . air to antifreeze to water. Insulation is the key of
course. Water beds have a pretty low volume and wouldn't last long.
If a person is going to do something like this, it's worth designing it
to last long enough to make it worth you while. As far as "air
conditioning" it would run out extremely quickly. Remember that AC
units are measured by the ton of capacity. That is (tons of ice). One
ton of refrigeration is what it takes to freeze one ton of ice in 24
hours...... go look at AC units and the ton ratings, and it is quickly
apparent that it would take a horrendous amount of ice to achieve any
significant AC.

Howard

John Davis wrote:
> I have thought about building a small off-grade house/cabin and putting a
couple of waterbeds in an insulated box under the house with condensate drains
to the outside. Under the waterbeds put coils of copper tubing to a collector
outside. Fill the tubing and collector with anti-freeze solution and pump it
around under the waterbeds so that the water in the waterbeds freeze solid in
the winter.
> In the summer pipe that anti-freeze solution through a car radiator and fan in
the house.
> Controled by thermostats and all solar powered of course.
> Just an idea that might work if the summers aren't too long.
> John Davis
>
> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Stone Tool <owly@ttc-cmc. net> wrote:
>
>
> From: Stone Tool <owly@ttc-cmc. net>
> Subject: Re: [RefrigeratorAltern atives] Re: storing "cold"
> To: RefrigeratorAlterna tives@yahoogroup s.com
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 10:39 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Laren:
> While the cheap blue ice that is sold in Walmart for general consumer
> use is no doubt little more than salt and water, there are other fluids
> which are not what you describe. The term "blue ice" has become a
> generic term.... like Frigidair once was...... A name for a whole range
> of products of a similar nature or application.
> While you can alter the freezing point of water in a number of ways,
> there is a great deal deal more to achieving the maximum energy storage
> in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and back.
> I made the mistake of using the example of what everybody is familiar
> with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I have no doubt is
> exactly what you describe.... .... But it is a mistake to lump all
> engineered fluids into the same category. Ordinary frozen water
> absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing.... It is however
> possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting temperature /
> freezing temperature, and to achieve a higher heat of fusion. The
> question is does it make economic sense? The answer would be for simple
> cooling at the refrigerator level....... probably not. It does however
> offer a real potential of running an actual freezer on "stored cold"
> As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really...... Designing the
> cooling and freezing compartments, not only for max insulation but also
> to avoid unnecessary heat absorption under open door conditions.
> Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
> Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL engineered fluids in
> the context of your own target objectives is an individual matter. I
> frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know enough about
> chemistry to know that there is potential here.
>
> Howard
>
> LarenCorie wrote:
>> From: "Stone Tool" <owly@ttc-cmc. net>
>>
>>> In an off grid situation energy storage is the critical piece of the
>>> puzzle. The usual line of thinking is to store electricity to operate
>>> a refrigerator of more or less conventional design..... perhaps more
>>> efficient, and perhaps 12 volt.
>>> Every way you can unload battery demand is "money in the bank".
>>> "Storing energy as stored cooling capacity" is a huge potential benefit
>>> as refrigeration is the single largest demand which is least reducible.
>> Hello Howard;
>>
>> Thermal storage is easy....
>> And far more efficient than batteries, not only
>> in the fact that it returns 100%, but even in
>> BTU/weight, that it can store.
>>
>>> There has been very little talk of using "engineered "change of state"
>>> fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy.
>> That is because it is just an extremely expensive
>> packaging of water, food coloring, and sometimes
>> table salt.
>>
>>> It makes sense to store energy in this form when you have
>>> surplus generation capacity rather than storing it in batteries
>>> for later use for refrigeration.
>> It makes more sense, to use bottles of water, unless
>> you happen to have a free supply of gel ice packs. But,
>> their thick plastic encasement makes them less efficient
>> at exchanging heat, so water bottles will work better.
>>
>> -Laren Corie-
>> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
>> www.ThermalAttic. com
>>
>> Read my Solar house design articles in:
>> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
>> www.rebelwolf. com/essn. html
>>
>> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/LittleHous es/
>>
>> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WoodGas
>>
>> Founder-Refrigerato rAlternatives YahooGroup
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Refrigerat orAlternatives
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "Stone Tool" <owly@...>

> The term "blue ice" has become a generic term.... like Frigidair once
> was......  A name for a whole range of products of a similar nature or
> application.

Hello Howard;

"Blue Ice" is a brand name, of Rubbermaid, for packs of
a fluid which appears to be nothing more than colored water,
and probably a little salt.

> While you can alter the freezing point of water in a number of ways,
> there is a great deal deal more to achieving the maximum energy storage
> in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and back.
> I made the mistake of using the example of what everybody is familiar
> with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I have no doubt is
> exactly what  you describe........ But it is a mistake to lump all
> engineered fluids into the same category.   Ordinary frozen water
> absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing.... It is however
> possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting temperature /
> freezing temperature,

That can be done with salt.

> and to achieve a higher heat of fusion.

Please supply evidence of that claim.
What material is used that has greater
latent heat of fusion, than water?

>  The question is does it make economic sense?

That is only one question.  Another, is "Does it exist?"

> It does however offer a real potential of running
> an actual freezer on "stored cold"

That can be done, very economically, with brine.

    Can you please define, and supply data for this
"engineered fluid" that you have now posted about
twice, without identifying, except by a name that
only brings up a Rubbermaid product, which
appears to be nothing more than colored
water, and a little salt.

> As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really......
>  Designing the cooling and freezing compartments,
> not only for max insulation but also to avoid
> unnecessary heat absorption under open door
> conditions.

The problem is that the system costs more
than the electricity that it is trying to offset.

> Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
> Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL
> engineered fluids

   What are these "REAL engineered fluids"?
Please provide identification, and technical data...

>  in the context of your own target objectives is an individual matter.

> I frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know enough
> about chemistry to know that there is potential here.

     Please explain that potential.  That will require
numbers, in order to back your statement that these
yet unnamed "engineered fluids" have greater latent
storage capacity than water.  Instead of just making
unsubstantiated claims, that these magical fluids exist,
how about some evidence.   I have not been able
to find any.  How about helping us out here,
with a little data, to back your claims?

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives

John:
	 The real question in my mind is "why waterbeds?".     Do the math on
volume and it is immediately clear that you can dig a fair size hole and
line it with something water tight and get a lot of capacity for little
investment.  flat bottom, grade the sides at an angle so the ice can
expand upward easily, run your circulating lines right through the water
in the main tank.   Water is 7.48 gallons per cubic foot.   Take a hole
4' deep, by 16' x 16' and you have 7600 gallons of water.   Dig the hole
prior to building the house, and have it sprayed with polyurethane
insulation to both insulate it away from the ground and seal the water
in in one swell foop.   It probably also makes more sense to move the
cold outside air in rather than going through a double "heat
exchange".... air to antifreeze to water.   Insulation is the key of
course.    Water beds have a pretty low volume and wouldn't last long.
If a person is going to do something like this, it's worth designing it
to last long enough to make it worth you while.   As far as "air
conditioning" it would run out extremely quickly.   Remember that AC
units are measured by the ton of capacity.   That is (tons of ice).  One
ton of refrigeration is what it takes to freeze one ton of ice in 24
hours...... go look at AC units and the ton ratings, and it is quickly
apparent that it would take a horrendous amount of ice to achieve any
significant AC.

                              Howard

John Davis wrote:
> I have thought about building a small off-grade house/cabin and putting a
couple of waterbeds in an insulated box under the house with condensate drains
to the outside. Under the waterbeds put coils of copper tubing to a collector
outside. Fill the tubing and collector with anti-freeze solution and pump it
around under the waterbeds so that the water in the waterbeds freeze solid in
the winter.
> In the summer pipe that anti-freeze solution through a car radiator and fan in
the house.
> Controled by thermostats and all solar powered of course.
> Just an idea that might work if the summers aren't too long.
> John Davis
>
> --- On Fri, 11/6/09, Stone Tool <owly@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Stone Tool <owly@...>
> Subject: Re: [RefrigeratorAlternatives] Re: storing "cold"
> To: RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 10:39 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Laren:
> While the cheap blue ice that is sold in Walmart for general consumer
> use is no doubt little more than salt and water, there are other fluids
> which are not what you describe. The term "blue ice" has become a
> generic term.... like Frigidair once was...... A name for a whole range
> of products of a similar nature or application.
> While you can alter the freezing point of water in a number of ways,
> there is a great deal deal more to achieving the maximum energy storage
> in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and back.
> I made the mistake of using the example of what everybody is familiar
> with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I have no doubt is
> exactly what you describe.... .... But it is a mistake to lump all
> engineered fluids into the same category. Ordinary frozen water
> absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing.... It is however
> possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting temperature /
> freezing temperature, and to achieve a higher heat of fusion. The
> question is does it make economic sense? The answer would be for simple
> cooling at the refrigerator level....... probably not. It does however
> offer a real potential of running an actual freezer on "stored cold"
> As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really...... Designing the
> cooling and freezing compartments, not only for max insulation but also
> to avoid unnecessary heat absorption under open door conditions.
> Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
> Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL engineered fluids in
> the context of your own target objectives is an individual matter. I
> frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know enough about
> chemistry to know that there is potential here.
>
> Howard
>
> LarenCorie wrote:
>> From: "Stone Tool" <owly@ttc-cmc. net>
>>
>>> In an off grid situation energy storage is the critical piece of the
>>> puzzle. The usual line of thinking is to store electricity to operate
>>> a refrigerator of more or less conventional design..... perhaps more
>>> efficient, and perhaps 12 volt.
>>> Every way you can unload battery demand is "money in the bank".
>>> "Storing energy as stored cooling capacity" is a huge potential benefit
>>> as refrigeration is the single largest demand which is least reducible.
>> Hello Howard;
>>
>> Thermal storage is easy....
>> And far more efficient than batteries, not only
>> in the fact that it returns 100%, but even in
>> BTU/weight, that it can store.
>>
>>> There has been very little talk of using "engineered "change of state"
>>> fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy.
>> That is because it is just an extremely expensive
>> packaging of water, food coloring, and sometimes
>> table salt.
>>
>>> It makes sense to store energy in this form when you have
>>> surplus generation capacity rather than storing it in batteries
>>> for later use for refrigeration.
>> It makes more sense, to use bottles of water, unless
>> you happen to have a free supply of gel ice packs. But,
>> their thick plastic encasement makes them less efficient
>> at exchanging heat, so water bottles will work better.
>>
>> -Laren Corie-
>> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
>> www.ThermalAttic. com
>>
>> Read my Solar house design articles in:
>> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
>> www.rebelwolf. com/essn. html
>>
>> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/LittleHous es/
>>
>> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WoodGas
>>
>> Founder-Refrigerato rAlternatives YahooGroup
>> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Refrigerat orAlternatives
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Laren - thank you for the information.  My approach 30 plus years ago when I
lived off the grid was set up a system of the lowest necessary technology.  Even
when I go wind and solar after ten years without electricity (by choice), I was
still able in five minutes to disconnect the pumpjack and pump water manually. 
The pump set up was the old cylinder, rod and farm pump.  In one day I could
pull the cylinder and replace the leathers.

This is how I am slowly setting up the orchard.   I believe our view of the
future (especially our technological future) may be quite different.  I believe
fossil fuels will diminish in availability (hopefully slowly) and we will live
at the per capita energy use of the middle ages.

I believe that the renewable energies are not renewable at all since they
require a sophisticated energy and technological system to capture the wind and
solar (except for passive).  See my essay on the matter at: 
http://sunweber.blogspot.com/

I will be using solar electric at the orchard for cooling and other power (I
presently have a 3kWh grid tie system here at the lake) but will be designing
for what I see as the future which hopefully may be measured in decades but I
don't think so.  There is no need for us to belabor this point.  If you are
right, perhaps a small percentage of the world's population will live high on
the energy hog. If I am right then life will not only be less brutish for our
planning but I will have had a ball in the developing.

I continue to look for guidance in the developing.  Most of the technological
ideas be presented where batted around back in the 70s when I was very active in
the alternative energy world.
John Weber
Not a luddite here in Northern Minnesota
http://www.rea-alp.com/~dragnfly

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, "LarenCorie" <larencorie@...>
wrote:
>
> From: "John W" <todotoo@...>
>
> > Go to this URL -
> > http://iceharvestingusa.com/iceharvestingusa.html
> > On page 5 is a description on how to save ice.  It looks like a fairly
> > simple production process to be done across the winter.  The whole
> > article is well done.  I will post in in the files.
>
> Hi John;
>
>     It seems unnecessarily labor intensive to expend all that effort
> freezing water outside, cutting in out (dangerous), and them moving
> it inside, when all you have to do is properly vent the icehouse, and
> you can just freeze the ice, right in place.  They did not have quality,
> low-cost containers back them.   But you can bet that if those same
> people were around today, they would not be using the inferior tech-
> -nologies that were all they had back then. In fact, it is a really good
> bet, they would be using compressor refrigerators.   With an energy
> efficient compressor refrigerator, it is not energy efficient to bring all
> of that cold ice into the house, to increase the space heating loads. It
> may be a viable alternative, for someone living off-grid, in a climate
> that has very overcast winters, when electricity is at a premium. But,
> for someone with grid electricity, storing ice does not make sense.
> Even freezing water bottles on your porch, during the Winter, is
> not worth doing.     The ice needs to be melted by additional load
> on the house space heating system. That is a load that compressor
> refrigerators do not impose, because they recycle the heat that
> enters them.      They actually add heat to the house, and reduce
> the space heating load..   Again, like with an off-grid house, the
> numbers would need to be tweaked, somewhat in favor of ice,
> for a house that is 100% Solar heated, or even wood heated,
> and not necessarily 100% Solar/wood heated for the whole
> season, just 100% for the time that you are bringing the ice
> into the house.  But, unfortunately, that is the time when
> the space heating load is greatest.
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
> www.ThermalAttic.com
>
> Read my Solar house design articles in:
> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
> www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
>
> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/
>
> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas
>
> Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
>

I have thought about building a small off-grade house/cabin and putting a couple
of waterbeds in an insulated box under the house with condensate drains to the
outside. Under the waterbeds put coils of copper tubing to a collector outside.
Fill the tubing and collector with anti-freeze solution and pump it around under
the waterbeds so that the water in the waterbeds freeze solid in the winter.
In the summer pipe that anti-freeze solution through a car radiator and fan in
the house.
Controled by thermostats and all solar powered of course.
Just an idea that might work if the summers aren't too long.
John Davis

--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Stone Tool <owly@...> wrote:


From: Stone Tool <owly@...>
Subject: Re: [RefrigeratorAlternatives] Re: storing "cold"
To: RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 10:39 PM


 



Laren:
While the cheap blue ice that is sold in Walmart for general consumer
use is no doubt little more than salt and water, there are other fluids
which are not what you describe. The term "blue ice" has become a
generic term.... like Frigidair once was...... A name for a whole range
of products of a similar nature or application.
While you can alter the freezing point of water in a number of ways,
there is a great deal deal more to achieving the maximum energy storage
in the "change of state" from liquid to solid and back.
I made the mistake of using the example of what everybody is familiar
with ....... the generic Walmart "blue ice"....which I have no doubt is
exactly what you describe.... .... But it is a mistake to lump all
engineered fluids into the same category. Ordinary frozen water
absorbs a lot of energy in the process of thawing.... It is however
possible to improve on it both by lowering the melting temperature /
freezing temperature, and to achieve a higher heat of fusion. The
question is does it make economic sense? The answer would be for simple
cooling at the refrigerator level....... probably not. It does however
offer a real potential of running an actual freezer on "stored cold"
As Kirk said...... insulation is the key really...... Designing the
cooling and freezing compartments, not only for max insulation but also
to avoid unnecessary heat absorption under open door conditions.
Whatever you do here is a one time investment.
Evaluating the cost/performace equation of REAL engineered fluids in
the context of your own target objectives is an individual matter. I
frankly don't have numbers to go on... but I do know enough about
chemistry to know that there is potential here.

Howard

LarenCorie wrote:
> From: "Stone Tool" <owly@ttc-cmc. net>
>
>> In an off grid situation energy storage is the critical piece of the
>> puzzle. The usual line of thinking is to store electricity to operate
>> a refrigerator of more or less conventional design..... perhaps more
>> efficient, and perhaps 12 volt.
>> Every way you can unload battery demand is "money in the bank".
>> "Storing energy as stored cooling capacity" is a huge potential benefit
>> as refrigeration is the single largest demand which is least reducible.
>
> Hello Howard;
>
> Thermal storage is easy....
> And far more efficient than batteries, not only
> in the fact that it returns 100%, but even in
> BTU/weight, that it can store.
>
>> There has been very little talk of using "engineered "change of state"
>> fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy.
>
> That is because it is just an extremely expensive
> packaging of water, food coloring, and sometimes
> table salt.
>
>> It makes sense to store energy in this form when you have
>> surplus generation capacity rather than storing it in batteries
>> for later use for refrigeration.
>
> It makes more sense, to use bottles of water, unless
> you happen to have a free supply of gel ice packs. But,
> their thick plastic encasement makes them less efficient
> at exchanging heat, so water bottles will work better.
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
> www.ThermalAttic. com
>
> Read my Solar house design articles in:
> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
> www.rebelwolf. com/essn. html
>
> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/LittleHous es/
>
> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WoodGas
>
> Founder-Refrigerato rAlternatives YahooGroup
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Refrigerat orAlternatives
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"I'd like to store the heat from my car in a box and take it inside after a
drive."

I checked this out decades ago and reached the conclusion that you would have to
haul an immense amount of weight for it to be useful.  Of course fuel prices are
much higher now, so it might have a better payback.  Let me know if you find out
anything.
z

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, BILL THOMAS <waarehouse@...>
wrote:
>
>  """There has been very little talk of using "engineered "change of state"
>  fluids" (blue ice) as a way of storing energy. """
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
------------------------------
> Does it really do that?  I mean, when ice melts that is a "change of state". 
I am interested in things that do that, and conversely, thigs that evaporate and
condense easily, type fluids such as acetone.
>  
> >  
> I'd like to make a solar heat pump that evaporates at 75 F, and condenses
aroun 65F or maybe better yet evaporates at 80F and condenses at 68 to 70 F.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

My Kill-a-Watt meter shows an average of $4/month for a 17 ft3 refrigerator. 
$400 initial investment.  Should last more than a decade.  Convenient.  Granted
it adds heat in the summer, but it mostly goes out the window.  Like Loren said,
it adds heat in the winters, which are even longer here than in N. Minnesota.  
So an ice house might not make economic sense.  But it might be fun and a
learning experience. So John, let us know how it turns out if you do it.
Zard

--- In RefrigeratorAlternatives@yahoogroups.com, "LarenCorie" <larencorie@...>
wrote:
>
> From: "John W" <todotoo@...>
>
> > Go to this URL -
> > http://iceharvestingusa.com/iceharvestingusa.html
> > On page 5 is a description on how to save ice.  It looks like a fairly
> > simple production process to be done across the winter.  The whole
> > article is well done.  I will post in in the files.
>
> Hi John;
>
>     It seems unnecessarily labor intensive to expend all that effort
> freezing water outside, cutting in out (dangerous), and them moving
> it inside, when all you have to do is properly vent the icehouse, and
> you can just freeze the ice, right in place.  They did not have quality,
> low-cost containers back them.   But you can bet that if those same
> people were around today, they would not be using the inferior tech-
> -nologies that were all they had back then. In fact, it is a really good
> bet, they would be using compressor refrigerators.   With an energy
> efficient compressor refrigerator, it is not energy efficient to bring all
> of that cold ice into the house, to increase the space heating loads. It
> may be a viable alternative, for someone living off-grid, in a climate
> that has very overcast winters, when electricity is at a premium. But,
> for someone with grid electricity, storing ice does not make sense.
> Even freezing water bottles on your porch, during the Winter, is
> not worth doing.     The ice needs to be melted by additional load
> on the house space heating system. That is a load that compressor
> refrigerators do not impose, because they recycle the heat that
> enters them.      They actually add heat to the house, and reduce
> the space heating load..   Again, like with an off-grid house, the
> numbers would need to be tweaked, somewhat in favor of ice,
> for a house that is 100% Solar heated, or even wood heated,
> and not necessarily 100% Solar/wood heated for the whole
> season, just 100% for the time that you are bringing the ice
> into the house.  But, unfortunately, that is the time when
> the space heating load is greatest.
>
> -Laren Corie-
> Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
> www.ThermalAttic.com
>
> Read my Solar house design articles in:
> -Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
> www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
>
> Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/
>
> Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas
>
> Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives
>

From: "John W" <todotoo@...>

> Go to this URL -
> http://iceharvestingusa.com/iceharvestingusa.html
> On page 5 is a description on how to save ice.  It looks like a fairly
> simple production process to be done across the winter.  The whole
> article is well done.  I will post in in the files.

Hi John;

     It seems unnecessarily labor intensive to expend all that effort
freezing water outside, cutting in out (dangerous), and them moving
it inside, when all you have to do is properly vent the icehouse, and
you can just freeze the ice, right in place.  They did not have quality,
low-cost containers back them.   But you can bet that if those same
people were around today, they would not be using the inferior tech-
-nologies that were all they had back then. In fact, it is a really good
bet, they would be using compressor refrigerators.   With an energy
efficient compressor refrigerator, it is not energy efficient to bring all
of that cold ice into the house, to increase the space heating loads. It
may be a viable alternative, for someone living off-grid, in a climate
that has very overcast winters, when electricity is at a premium. But,
for someone with grid electricity, storing ice does not make sense.
Even freezing water bottles on your porch, during the Winter, is
not worth doing.     The ice needs to be melted by additional load
on the house space heating system. That is a load that compressor
refrigerators do not impose, because they recycle the heat that
enters them.      They actually add heat to the house, and reduce
the space heating load..   Again, like with an off-grid house, the
numbers would need to be tweaked, somewhat in favor of ice,
for a house that is 100% Solar heated, or even wood heated,
and not necessarily 100% Solar/wood heated for the whole
season, just 100% for the time that you are bringing the ice
into the house.  But, unfortunately, that is the time when
the space heating load is greatest.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design Since 1975
www.ThermalAttic.com

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Home base-LittleHouses YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LittleHouses/

Founder-WoodGas - Power from wood
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas

Founder-RefrigeratorAlternatives YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RefrigeratorAlternatives