There are a number of "personal" GPS-like systems for robots working inside
warehouses and such. They can locate to less than a cm. Surveyors use special
differential GPS units and have accuracies of a tenth of an inch of better at a
1/4 mile. Do a google search for precision GPS. Commercial aircraft have sub cm
3D capability for landing at major airports. Developed by Interstate Electronics
some 15 years ago. The technology exists, it is just not too applicable for you
back yard (yet).

WBob
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jabraham@...
   To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:49 PM
   Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro


     Interesting. Thanks for the info. Of course it's technically feasible to
triangulate off of three local transmitters (not sure what the other poster
meant by "obstacles" -- lots of RF waves go through obstacles.)

   But since you've pointed out the cost is in the accurate timing, and you'd
need accurate timing regardless of whether you're tracking points in the sky or
points around your house, it would make more sense to mount a differential
transmitter at a fixed point on your house (to correct for atmospheric
interference) and use points in the sky instead of the three points on your
property your house.

   Regardless, it sounds very expensive.

   What about the ultrasound idea, to avoid the expensive timer? Is there no
off-the-shelf technology for measuring distance from a fixed transmitter using
ultrasound? That sounds more promising than RF. Might drive the pets crazy
though.

   --
   John

   --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
   >
   > Actually, generally no. Because the speed of light is extremely fast,
   > most of the problems are in timing the signal and have little to do with
   > the satellite being so far away. There's no good way to make consumer
   > transmitters with the accuracy required, in general it requires an
   > atomic clock for one because the satellite transmission time must be
   > sync'ed to picoseconds. And running a clocking cable from one
   > transmitter to the other to guarantee they all have the same clock, even
   > that is fraught with problems. Never mind that a GPS-like but
   > not-actually-GPS receiver would be a highly specialized device which
   > would be incredibly expensive to design.
   >
   > Ultrasonic transceiver have some potential because the speed of sound is
   > so much slower that distance results in far more discernible delays, but
   > cycle-accurate reception at a distance is very difficult.
   >
   > Actually there ARE survey gps units which are accurate to within
   > millimeters. It's POSSIBLE. There's a major cost issue, however. The
   > units have several features such as ultra-accurate clocks which are not
   > present in consumer units because the cost is orders of magnitude higher.
   >
   > Danny
   >
   > jabraham@... wrote:
   > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "WB" <wild_bill_howell@> wrote:
   > >
   > >> I don't believe that GPS has the fine resolution required for mowing
where an error of just a few inches could place the mower in the path of road
traffic in yards w/o sidewalks.
   > >>
   > >>
   > >
   > > No it doesn't. Another alternative is to bolt three fixed transmitters
around the house and triangulate off of them. That would give enough accuracy.
But I wonder whether 1) it would be too expensive to develop the
hardware/software, and 2) whether bolting three fixed transmitters to your house
and powering them is any easier than running a perimeter wire?
   > >
   > > --
   > > John Abraham
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A big problem is reflections of the original RF signal reaching a
receiver.  These are delayed due to the extra distance, it's called
"multipath" reception.

Ultrasonics are difficult to get to work in an omnidirectional
transmitter and omnidirectional receiver over large distances (>50ft).
They are also subject to similar multipath problems if there's a
reflected soundwave off a house siding or a fence.

Actually machine vision is often the more effective strategy, but it's
hella complicated to pull off.  One way is you have a TV camera "eyes"
and scatter strong infrared beacons around the place, each blinking a
unique ID code.  Infrared is not visible to human eyes but all solid
state imagers pick up infrared.  By simply looking around for these
navigation references and calculating the camera angle and where the nav
point appears on the video frame, it's quite possible to determine where
you are.  This does require some considerable computing power and often
a moving camera mount so it can "look around".

Danny

wolfbob wrote:
> There are a number of "personal" GPS-like systems for robots working inside
warehouses and such. They can locate to less than a cm. Surveyors use special
differential GPS units and have accuracies of a tenth of an inch of better at a
1/4 mile. Do a google search for precision GPS. Commercial aircraft have sub cm
3D capability for landing at major airports. Developed by Interstate Electronics
some 15 years ago. The technology exists, it is just not too applicable for you
back yard (yet).
>
> WBob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jabraham@...
>   To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:49 PM
>   Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro
>
>
>     Interesting. Thanks for the info. Of course it's technically feasible to
triangulate off of three local transmitters (not sure what the other poster
meant by "obstacles" -- lots of RF waves go through obstacles.)
>
>   But since you've pointed out the cost is in the accurate timing, and you'd
need accurate timing regardless of whether you're tracking points in the sky or
points around your house, it would make more sense to mount a differential
transmitter at a fixed point on your house (to correct for atmospheric
interference) and use points in the sky instead of the three points on your
property your house.
>
>   Regardless, it sounds very expensive.
>
>   What about the ultrasound idea, to avoid the expensive timer? Is there no
off-the-shelf technology for measuring distance from a fixed transmitter using
ultrasound? That sounds more promising than RF. Might drive the pets crazy
though.
>
>   --
>   John
>
>   --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
>   >
>   > Actually, generally no. Because the speed of light is extremely fast,
>   > most of the problems are in timing the signal and have little to do with
>   > the satellite being so far away. There's no good way to make consumer
>   > transmitters with the accuracy required, in general it requires an
>   > atomic clock for one because the satellite transmission time must be
>   > sync'ed to picoseconds. And running a clocking cable from one
>   > transmitter to the other to guarantee they all have the same clock, even
>   > that is fraught with problems. Never mind that a GPS-like but
>   > not-actually-GPS receiver would be a highly specialized device which
>   > would be incredibly expensive to design.
>   >
>   > Ultrasonic transceiver have some potential because the speed of sound is
>   > so much slower that distance results in far more discernible delays, but
>   > cycle-accurate reception at a distance is very difficult.
>   >
>   > Actually there ARE survey gps units which are accurate to within
>   > millimeters. It's POSSIBLE. There's a major cost issue, however. The
>   > units have several features such as ultra-accurate clocks which are not
>   > present in consumer units because the cost is orders of magnitude higher.
>   >
>   > Danny
>   >
>   > jabraham@... wrote:
>   > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "WB" <wild_bill_howell@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > >> I don't believe that GPS has the fine resolution required for mowing
where an error of just a few inches could place the mower in the path of road
traffic in yards w/o sidewalks.
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >
>   > > No it doesn't. Another alternative is to bolt three fixed transmitters
around the house and triangulate off of them. That would give enough accuracy.
But I wonder whether 1) it would be too expensive to develop the
hardware/software, and 2) whether bolting three fixed transmitters to your house
and powering them is any easier than running a perimeter wire?
>   > >
>   > > --
>   > > John Abraham
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

A Ditch Witch seems like over kill to me.  I use a weed whacker.  It will cut
threw the grass and go into the earth about 1/2 ".  that is all that is needed
to put the wire underground.  No pegs needed.

Ken




________________________________
From: WB <wild_bill_howell@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 9:38:20 AM
Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro


I am a pragmatic rationalist. ...
and empirical agnostic.

I am an engineer (ret).
And I'm an American.

We have a machine for laying cable, it's a modified "Ditch Witch",
but it's too big for laying perimeter wire.

The markets for RMs here are spaced too far and wide....
and the demand is too low to justify the investment in a fleet of the smaller
machines to which you refer.

I think perhaps you're taking the "flights of fancy" /thought "solutions" posts
seen here as representative of "typical" "Over-Engineered" "American Ingenuity".

What you're seeing here is basically an informal "brain-storming" session.
When I was working as an engineer and project manager and manager of other
engineers for a large aerospace company, we would have these kind of sessions on
a regular basis. It was part of our corporate culture.

The rules were simple...... .....
1  throw ideas out, no matter how "far-out" and "over-engineered" .
2  do not ridicule any idea presented by others.

The concept is to provide a "safe" space to let one's imagination take flight,
freedom of thought..... ..
in a safe environment. .......freedom from ridicule in a safe environment. .

Perhaps only one in one-hundred ideas had any practical merit, but the process
worked.
We also would bring in other individuals from different disciplines to lend a
different perspective in both defining the problem and in finding solutions.
You could call it intellectual diversity.
Sometimes just re-framing the "problem" was the key to a solution.

So, I say...
keep throwing stuff against the wall and let's see what sticks.
(Even though I believe the perimeter wire is the best cost-to-performance
solution.)  :-)

FWIW

WB

--- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, "Frans" <voorde@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The discussion has gone a slightly different direction than I thought/intended
initially.
> However, isn't very inspiring?
> It keeps coming back to the fact that installing perimeter wire is such a
drag, (which I can condone), and in my experience in much walked over spots can
be troublesome. Here comes the description of a nifty perimeter-wire- laying
machine that uses NO relativity theory at all.
>
> With no intention of being critical about that I observe that americans, (if
THE american exists) have an interesting tendency to come up with technological
solutions to problems, whereas europeans, -if THE European exists- tend to go
for more pragmatic solutions on the whole. Why is this? Anyone have an
explanation?
>
> Seen in this light I saw a little device at a place that has been selling
Robomow since the Dark Silver Classic ages. It consists of a (weighted-down/
ballasted) frame with a steering handlebar and a spool of perimeter wire on top.
In the front is a sharp wheel that cuts the grass and deposits the wire on the
bottom of the slit that it ceates. It does the big work with no sweat - small
perimeter islands still need to be "pegged". Next time I am at the shop I will
take a picture of the machine and post it here.
>
> Thanks so far for all the input into my little question!
>
> Frans
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, "Frans" <voorde@> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know if the cooperations between FM and Stiga and Toro
respectively are still on??
> >
> > I knew about Toro, but I have not seen those around for some time.
> >
> > Just learned about it when I reacted to a personal ad for a Stiga, which
looks identical to a RL500.
> >
> > Anyone aware of other close cooperations? Are there real differences in
price?
> >
> > Frans van der Voorde
> >
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In some parts of the country it is not too late to plant perenial rye grass (if
you don't have an aversion to it). It helps stop erosion and mud from getting
traced in your yard by you or your dog. I hate to have rye grass in my front
yard but it is my friend in the back yard for me and my ocd frisbee catching
blue merle sheltie and my normal 1 yr old choc lab.

Matt Cooper
AutoMate Tools
Ph. (214) 538-0409
mattcoop2@...

I have a similar problem, yellow lab mixed with a bit of craziness.  What part
of this country will "perennial rye grass" grow?  I'm in Texas and the grass is
still partially green, but practically stopped growing and about to go dormant.




________________________________
From: Matt Cooper <mattcoop2@...>
To: "RoboMower@yahoogroups.com" <RoboMower@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 7:46:45 AM
Subject: [RoboMower] back yards with large bare spots "induced" by large
running/playful chocolate lab


In some parts of the country it is not too late to plant perenial rye grass (if
you don't have an aversion to it). It helps stop erosion and mud from getting
traced in your yard by you or your dog. I hate to have rye grass in my front
yard but it is my friend in the back yard for me and my ocdfrisbee catching blue
merlesheltie and my normal 1 yr old choc lab.

Matt Cooper
AutoMate Tools
Ph. (214) 538-0409
mattcoop2@sbcglobal .net






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple of
the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.

My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them a
few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?

Mike

I bought two tempests in August and a few cells in one battery went bad so it's
back for warranty repair.  Shipping via USPS was about $10.

If you wait till mowing season and you have a bad battery, you may be forced to
use a non-robotic mower while you wait for warranty repairs (Tempest has a 1
year warranty).  Also, if you bought the batteries from a Tempest dealer, ask
them their opinion.  As an official distributor I'd assume they would have the
best suggestion.

If you do decide to use the batteries, keep them fully charged but not charging
all the time.  Some of the RL500's overcharge and burn out batteries
prematurely.




________________________________
From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 5:15:19 PM
Subject: [RoboMower] New Batteries - Wait or Install?


Hi all,

Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple of
the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.

My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them a
few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?

Mike







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Others can give more advice.  I’d suggest running them enough to make sure
they’re OK for the reasons Ben mentioned, then put them up for the winter.



When not mowing my opinion is to fully charge the batteries then remove the
battery pack from the mower.



Some folks recommend “topping off” the charge occasionally during storage. 
I usually intend to do that but never remember to do it<g>.



Dan







From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Ben Sporl
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 6:53 PM
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] New Batteries - Wait or Install?





I bought two tempests in August and a few cells in one battery went bad so it's
back for warranty repair. Shipping via USPS was about $10.

If you wait till mowing season and you have a bad battery, you may be forced to
use a non-robotic mower while you wait for warranty repairs (Tempest has a 1
year warranty). Also, if you bought the batteries from a Tempest dealer, ask
them their opinion. As an official distributor I'd assume they would have the
best suggestion.

If you do decide to use the batteries, keep them fully charged but not charging
all the time. Some of the RL500's overcharge and burn out batteries prematurely.

________________________________
From: runner1717 <runner1717@... <mailto:runner1717%40windstream.net>
>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 5:15:19 PM
Subject: [RoboMower] New Batteries - Wait or Install?

Hi all,

Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple of
the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.

My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them a
few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?

Mike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See the "Robo Magellan
<http://www.robothon.org/robothon/robo-magellan.php>  " contest at
Seattle Robotics Society <http://www.seattlerobotics.org/>  .

I had wire problems with the church next door. Thier landscape guys
would cut my robomow wire with their weed whackers or mowers every month
or so. I had to patch it so many times that I ultimately did have to
bury it.

If you have high traffic or areas where you can't control other mowers,
burying is the best. Another drawback of burying however is that you can
accidentally break the wire yourself because it's no longer visible. I
cut my own wire several times when sprigging new grass in a shady area.

Some other means of defining the border would be great. Maybe the
robomagellan guys have something to offer on that subject. I know
several guys who have tried the "local gps" idea for robots and it's no
small task. I would encourage you all to find your local robot club and
join. I spent many happy years as a member of the Atlanta Hobby Robot
Club (AHRC <http://www.botlanta.org/>  ) This kind of discussion
indicates that you are prime candidates comming from this group.



keith rowell <http://knewt.blogspot.com/>








--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "wolfbob" <wolfbob@...> wrote:
>
> There are a number of "personal" GPS-like systems for robots working
inside warehouses and such. They can locate to less than a cm. Surveyors
use special differential GPS units and have accuracies of a tenth of an
inch of better at a 1/4 mile. Do a google search for precision GPS.
Commercial aircraft have sub cm 3D capability for landing at major
airports. Developed by Interstate Electronics some 15 years ago. The
technology exists, it is just not too applicable for you back yard
(yet).
>
> WBob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jabraham@...
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:49 PM
> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro
>
>
> Interesting. Thanks for the info. Of course it's technically feasible
to triangulate off of three local transmitters (not sure what the other
poster meant by "obstacles" -- lots of RF waves go through obstacles.)
>
> But since you've pointed out the cost is in the accurate timing, and
you'd need accurate timing regardless of whether you're tracking points
in the sky or points around your house, it would make more sense to
mount a differential transmitter at a fixed point on your house (to
correct for atmospheric interference) and use points in the sky instead
of the three points on your property your house.
>
> Regardless, it sounds very expensive.
>
> What about the ultrasound idea, to avoid the expensive timer? Is there
no off-the-shelf technology for measuring distance from a fixed
transmitter using ultrasound? That sounds more promising than RF. Might
drive the pets crazy though.
>
> --
> John
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller dannym@ wrote:
> >
> > Actually, generally no. Because the speed of light is extremely
fast,
> > most of the problems are in timing the signal and have little to do
with
> > the satellite being so far away. There's no good way to make
consumer
> > transmitters with the accuracy required, in general it requires an
> > atomic clock for one because the satellite transmission time must be
> > sync'ed to picoseconds. And running a clocking cable from one
> > transmitter to the other to guarantee they all have the same clock,
even
> > that is fraught with problems. Never mind that a GPS-like but
> > not-actually-GPS receiver would be a highly specialized device which
> > would be incredibly expensive to design.
> >
> > Ultrasonic transceiver have some potential because the speed of
sound is
> > so much slower that distance results in far more discernible delays,
but
> > cycle-accurate reception at a distance is very difficult.
> >
> > Actually there ARE survey gps units which are accurate to within
> > millimeters. It's POSSIBLE. There's a major cost issue, however. The
> > units have several features such as ultra-accurate clocks which are
not
> > present in consumer units because the cost is orders of magnitude
higher.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > jabraham@ wrote:
> > > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "WB" <wild_bill_howell@> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I don't believe that GPS has the fine resolution required for
mowing where an error of just a few inches could place the mower in the
path of road traffic in yards w/o sidewalks.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > No it doesn't. Another alternative is to bolt three fixed
transmitters around the house and triangulate off of them. That would
give enough accuracy. But I wonder whether 1) it would be too expensive
to develop the hardware/software, and 2) whether bolting three fixed
transmitters to your house and powering them is any easier than running
a perimeter wire?
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Abraham
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually two is enough,
  if you don't allow the robot to pass between the two. You can get unique
locations from two beacons but with only two, you get identical "mirror"
locations on each side of their centerline.

  Obstacles would be a problem with optical beacons but only infra red is
typically used for such and doesn't work outdoors because of the sunlight
interference problem.

keith rowell

--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Austin Morgan <admorgan@...> wrote:
>
> You are not taking into consideration obstacles. Three transmitters is not
> sufficient to triangulate a full yard from.
>
> Austin
>
> ----------------original message-----------------
> From: jabraham@...
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:41:08 -0000
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >
> >
> > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "WB" wild_bill_howell@ wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't believe that GPS has the fine resolution required for mowing
> where an
> >> error of just a few inches could place the mower in the path of road
> traffic in
> >> yards w/o sidewalks.
> >>
> >
> > No it doesn't. Another alternative is to bolt three fixed transmitters
> around
> > the house and triangulate off of them. That would give enough accuracy.
> But I
> > wonder whether 1) it would be too expensive to develop the
> hardware/software,
> > and 2) whether bolting three fixed transmitters to your house and powering
> them
> > is any easier than running a perimeter wire?
> >
> > --
> > John Abraham
> >
> >
> >
>

Yes slip would make odometer style "dead reconing" unlikely in something in such
a rough environment. RFID tags in conjunction with dead reconing could possibly
compensate for slippage though by confirming the bot's location upon crossing a
tag.

These would be easier than laying out a wire because they don't have to be
contiguous, dont require power, etc. One would just place them stragecially
about the lawn, perhaps closer togeather in curved areas, run some kind of
calibration routine where you manually guide the bot around the perimeter, then
save the configuration.

keith rowell

--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Barclay" <Dan@...> wrote:
>
> Mapping off tire size/odometer won't work at all  in my yard.  Mud here and
> there, enough for it to slip.  It needs actual position or perimeter.
>
>
>
> As for "invisible walls", they need transmitters.  That would be far more
> trouble than the perimeter wire in my lawn and most others I've looked it.
> Lots of curved edges and no place to put a transmitter along the pool edge.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Ben Sporl
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:10 AM
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree, pure GPS is too general. Hopefully they'll upgrade the satellite
> system in the near future to correct for this variance.
>
> However, you don't need GPS if you have a good mapping program. Using fixed
> tire sizes, you can map how far the mower has moved and the direction. Using
> better algorithms they can definitely comp up with an option.
>
> Maybe take a note from iRobot's playbook and deploy solar powered invisible
> walls. They charge during the day, then turn on when the mower runs. Make
> them laser to control the line allowing highly directional wall.
>
> Maybe put some floaties to keep the mower from accidently sinking to the
> bottom of the pool, and an emergency kill switch in case it pulls out the
> hidden lasers and starts attacking.
>
> ________________________________
> From: WB <wild_bill_howell@... <mailto:wild_bill_howell%40yahoo.com> >
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, November 2, 2009 4:44:04 PM
> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro
>
> I don't believe that GPS has the fine resolution required for mowing where
> an error of just a few inches could place the mower in the path of road
> traffic in yards w/o sidewalks.
>
> WB
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the article.
> >
> >
> > It's interesting to see a bit insight into what they were thinking. Yes,
> 10% of the 7m mower market would be a good goal, but not when your mower
> costs 8x the volume push mowers. I truly think three things need to occur
> before robomowing takes off:
> > - Easier: They need to get rid of the perimeter wire and use a mapping
> application. GPS is built into every phone, car, etc... and can be had for a
> few bucks when volume ordering. Software can map the yard to ensure the
> mower is kept in a zone. Even if GPS is not feasible, algorithms can map the
> yard if you drive the mower around the perimeter. They need to call Google,
> offer them $1m, and ask for a mapping application in return.
> > - Lower the costs: They need to be realistic about the costs and not
> expect people to pay $1,500 when they can buy a quality push mower for $200
> > - Local support: Local dealerships or partnerships need to be established.
> For this to work, the customer need to be able to return problem mowers to
> Sears, Lowes, Ace, Home Depot, etc... Customers need that warm and fuzzy
> feeling of a local person.
> >
> > Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: WB <wild_bill_howell@ ...>
> > To: RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 12:06:15 PM
> > Subject: [RoboMower] Re: Friendly Machines & Stiga / Toro
> >
> >
> > This is somewhat old news (2006 Design News), but answers a few questions
> and reveals some interesting history of the Friendly RoboMower. :
> >
> > http://www.designne ws.com/article/ 9955-Mowing_ on_Autopilot. php
> >
> > WB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

It makes no difference whether you use them a few times, then shelve
them fully charged, or shelve them fully charged without using them at all.

Ben's points are correct.  The warranty runs down regardless, but since
you've already bought them this is a nonissue.
And don't leave them on the charger.  It will slowly overcharge them and
that's very bad over a period of months.

A battery should not discharge significantly just sitting on the shelf
over the winter.  The recommendation is to charge them something like
every 4-6 months if unused, and BTW cooler temperatures not only slow
down the self-discharge rate but also the sulfation process which causes
the actual degradation problem which occurs while being left discharged
for extended periods.  There is no particular benefit to recharging a
batt during the off-season if it was initially charged, it's a waste of
time and only carries a risk that you'll put it on the charger and
forget and leave it on the charger for weeks or months.

Danny

Ben Sporl wrote:
> I bought two tempests in August and a few cells in one battery went bad so
it's back for warranty repair.  Shipping via USPS was about $10.
>
> If you wait till mowing season and you have a bad battery, you may be forced
to use a non-robotic mower while you wait for warranty repairs (Tempest has a 1
year warranty).  Also, if you bought the batteries from a Tempest dealer, ask
them their opinion.  As an official distributor I'd assume they would have the
best suggestion.
>
> If you do decide to use the batteries, keep them fully charged but not
charging all the time.  Some of the RL500's overcharge and burn out batteries
prematurely.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, November 6, 2009 5:15:19 PM
> Subject: [RoboMower] New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple
of the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.
>
> My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them a
few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?
>
> Mike
>
>
>

Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Mike





--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "runner1717" <runner1717@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple
of the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.
>
> My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them a
few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?
>
> Mike
>

Glad to hear the batteries ran well.  Run them a few more times.  My cell died
after the 2nd or 3rd run.

How did you get your blades sharp?

I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and add a
grinder to my Christmas wish list.  They run about $30 on Amazon.




________________________________
From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?


Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!

Mike




--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
>
> Glad to hear the batteries ran well.  Run them a few more times.  My cell died
after the 2nd or 3rd run.
>
> How did you get your blades sharp?
>
> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and add
a grinder to my Christmas wish list.  They run about $30 on Amazon.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>
>
> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Or you can do it with a Dremel.  There's a soft, porous grinding stone
which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.

It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it.  This is only
mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well.  That edge
will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
sharpness to begin with.

I do like the knife sharpeners.  A sharpening stone may be difficult
given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
probably Wal-Mart too.

I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades.  Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
them.  But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard.  Sooner or later
someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.

Danny


runner1717 wrote:
> Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
>
>> Glad to hear the batteries ran well.  Run them a few more times.  My cell
died after the 2nd or 3rd run.
>>
>> How did you get your blades sharp?
>>
>> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and
add a grinder to my Christmas wish list.  They run about $30 on Amazon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
>> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
>> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>>
>>
>> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Had two sets of blades sharpened locally for $15 (6 blades). During the season I
periodicly use a hand sharpener to touch them up.

-Bob

On Nov 11, 2009, at 5:56 PM, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:

Or you can do it with a Dremel. There's a soft, porous grinding stone
which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.

It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it. This is only
mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well. That edge
will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
sharpness to begin with.

I do like the knife sharpeners. A sharpening stone may be difficult
given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
probably Wal-Mart too.

I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades. Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
them. But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard. Sooner or later
someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.

Danny

runner1717 wrote:
> Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
>
>> Glad to hear the batteries ran well. Run them a few more times. My cell died
after the 2nd or 3rd run.
>>
>> How did you get your blades sharp?
>>
>> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and
add a grinder to my Christmas wish list. They run about $30 on Amazon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
>> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
>> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>>
>>
>> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the advice.  I've been meaning to get a grinder for a few years, but
have put it off.  I'll also look for a softer grinding wheel ("M").






________________________________
From: Danny Miller <dannym@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 4:56:53 PM
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?


Or you can do it with a Dremel.  There's a soft, porous grinding stone
which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ain't it funny how a casual remark about sharp blades on a machine that is
trying out new batteries acutely changes the course of the thread....

That's what I like about loosely moderated boards!

Anyone ever thought of installing disposable surgical steel blades? They are
resilient, tough and don't come of their holder easily.

They come in a bewildering variety of sizes and shapes.



--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "runner1717" <runner1717@...> wrote:
>
> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>
> Thanks for all the feedback!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, "runner1717" <runner1717@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Had to order a bunch of UPS batteries so I went ahead and purchased a couple
of the Tempest batteries talked about here. My mower batteries are under 2 hours
now. Robomow will probably be out for a couple of more weeks before bringing him
in for the Winter.
> >
> > My question is: should I go ahead and install the new batteries and use them
a few times or should I just leave them in their box and wait till spring? Which
method is better for the new batteries?
> >
> > Mike
> >
>

I use a fine hand-file to put a clear edge on the blades every few times. I just
flip the mower over and smooth the bottom edge of each blade. Main thing is to
smooth out little nicks that catch and pull the grass.

For my lawn it makes a big difference in looks. If the blades are dull or
pulling then i get brown tips.

richard

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Miller <dannym@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:56 PM
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?


Or you can do it with a Dremel. There's a soft, porous grinding stone
  which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
  Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.

  It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it. This is only
  mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well. That edge
  will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
  resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
  sharpness to begin with.

  I do like the knife sharpeners. A sharpening stone may be difficult
  given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
  The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
  probably Wal-Mart too.

  I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
  mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades. Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
  efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
  them. But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
  designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
  of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard. Sooner or later
  someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.

  Danny

  runner1717 wrote:
  > Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
  >
  > Mike
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
  >
  >> Glad to hear the batteries ran well. Run them a few more times. My cell died
after the 2nd or 3rd run.
  >>
  >> How did you get your blades sharp?
  >>
  >> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and
add a grinder to my Christmas wish list. They run about $30 on Amazon.
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> ________________________________
  >> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
  >> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
  >> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
  >> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
  >>
  >>
  >> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp
blades and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >>
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ------------------------------------
  >
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's a good idea to smooth them every so often but the main thing about
nicks is that they are "dull spots" and just get worse.



At 2500rpm they're not likely to pull on anything, they're just gonna beat
it to death instead of cutting.







From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of richard gard
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:42 PM
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?





I use a fine hand-file to put a clear edge on the blades every few times. I
just flip the mower over and smooth the bottom edge of each blade. Main
thing is to smooth out little nicks that catch and pull the grass.

For my lawn it makes a big difference in looks. If the blades are dull or
pulling then i get brown tips.

richard

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Miller <dannym@... <mailto:dannym%40austin.rr.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:56 PM
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?

Or you can do it with a Dremel. There's a soft, porous grinding stone
which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.

It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it. This is only
mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well. That edge
will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
sharpness to begin with.

I do like the knife sharpeners. A sharpening stone may be difficult
given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
probably Wal-Mart too.

I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades. Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
them. But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard. Sooner or later
someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.

Danny

runner1717 wrote:
> Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened
them using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal
amounts off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com> ,
Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
>
>> Glad to hear the batteries ran well. Run them a few more times. My cell
died after the 2nd or 3rd run.
>>
>> How did you get your blades sharp?
>>
>> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down
and add a grinder to my Christmas wish list. They run about $30 on Amazon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
>> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RoboMower%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
>> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>>
>>
>> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp
blades and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just make sure you remover that battery before you flip the robomower over on
it's back - I didn't and the mower beeped just as I was about to reach in and
remove the blades - they engaged while my fingers dangled inches from them - I
know, Darwin award in the making ;o)



Anyway, I now remove the battery any time I work on the mower because, upside
down the front wheel safety switch thinks the wheel is on the grd and the blades
freely engage.



CHuck G





To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
From: richardgard@...
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:42:05 -0500
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?





I use a fine hand-file to put a clear edge on the blades every few times. I just
flip the mower over and smooth the bottom edge of each blade. Main thing is to
smooth out little nicks that catch and pull the grass.

For my lawn it makes a big difference in looks. If the blades are dull or
pulling then i get brown tips.

richard

-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Miller <dannym@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:56 PM
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?

Or you can do it with a Dremel. There's a soft, porous grinding stone
which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.

It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it. This is only
mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well. That edge
will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
sharpness to begin with.

I do like the knife sharpeners. A sharpening stone may be difficult
given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
probably Wal-Mart too.

I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades. Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
them. But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard. Sooner or later
someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.

Danny

runner1717 wrote:
> Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@...> wrote:
>
>> Glad to hear the batteries ran well. Run them a few more times. My cell died
after the 2nd or 3rd run.
>>
>> How did you get your blades sharp?
>>
>> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and
add a grinder to my Christmas wish list. They run about $30 on Amazon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: runner1717 <runner1717@...>
>> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
>> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
>>
>>
>> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp blades
and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to groupMessages in this topic (8)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dremel has a guide attachment made for sharpening ? knives, etc. It helps you
keep a uniform angle as you move the tool across the blade. I use that once a
year successfully. Be careful and take the same amount off each tang, to keep
the balance.

--- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Danny Miller <dannym@...> wrote:
>
> Or you can do it with a Dremel.  There's a soft, porous grinding stone
> which come with an "M" sticker on top which is good for this fine work.
> Not much material needs to be removed unless you've got a ding.
>
> It is not productive to try to put a very fine edge on it.  This is only
> mild steel, not knife-grade, and it won't hold an edge well.  That edge
> will not only dull quickly, but may "mushroom" back at the very edge
> resulting in a duller cutting edge than if you'd tried for a more modest
> sharpness to begin with.
>
> I do like the knife sharpeners.  A sharpening stone may be difficult
> given the upturned "wing" towards the end.
> The swipe-across knife sharpeners are like $10 at Academy Sports,
> probably Wal-Mart too.
>
> I read one guy's project website where he was making his own robotic
> mower, and he used freakin' boxcutter blades.  Sharp and cheap, cut VERY
> efficiently, and might be so thin that grass debris may not build up on
> them.  But the obvious problem is that the blade's fundamentally
> designed to break sections off and the last thing you want is sections
> of ultra-sharp razor blade getting lost in the yard.  Sooner or later
> someone's gonna step on one, or your dog may step on one.
>
> Danny
>
>
> runner1717 wrote:
> > Tried using a sharpening stone but I don't have the patients. Sharpened them
using my bench grinder. Worked just fine. Just make sure you take equal amounts
off of each side and be careful, the metal is really soft!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In RoboMower@yahoogroups.com, Ben Sporl <bsporl@> wrote:
> >
> >> Glad to hear the batteries ran well.  Run them a few more times.  My cell
died after the 2nd or 3rd run.
> >>
> >> How did you get your blades sharp?
> >>
> >> I've been using a knife sharpener, but I think I'm going to break down and
add a grinder to my Christmas wish list.  They run about $30 on Amazon.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: runner1717 <runner1717@>
> >> To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:14:28 PM
> >> Subject: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?
> >>
> >>
> >> Installed them over the weekend and they ran for 4+ hours today. Sharp
blades and not doing much other than mulching leaves.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

To bypass the security is a serious failing of your mower.  Be very careful.

It's like the mower was out to get you.




________________________________
From: Chuck Grenkow <cgrenkow@...>
To: robomower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 8:00:21 PM
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Re: New Batteries - Wait or Install?



Just make sure you remover that battery before you flip the robomower over on
it's back - I didn't and the mower beeped just as I was about to reach in and
remove the blades - they engaged while my fingers dangled inches from them - I
know, Darwin award in the making ;o)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

With all this discussion on the Tempest battery, I wanted to let you know the
latest on my situation.

I bought two Tempests in August from IMC Power.  I didn't get to use them much
during September because of all the rain, maybe 2 times.  By October the mower
was only running about 30 minutes after a full charge.  At the end of October,
it said fully charged, then when I start the mow process, it immediately said
Recharge Batteries.

I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries tested so I
don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS).  The local Batteries Plus store
said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on a 22 amp battery while the
other is produced 22 amps.  I told Batteries Plus both batteries were under
warranty so hopefully they weren't lying to get a quick sale.

I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a warranty swap,
and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.

Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery assuming
Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it back to IMC Power. 
If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my battery then I'm screwed out
of $131 on two new batteries.  If this happens I don't know what to do.  I
really don't want to spend another $150 on new non-tempest batteries.

In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC Power,
tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them figure it out.

Any suggestions or advice?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, there are 3 basic criteria by which a battery may be judged:
1.  Simple voltage:  Produces 12.8v when charged, maybe under a light
load.  This rules out shorted cells, the most common "failure" there is.
2.  Cold cranking amps:  Your local car battery place will use a jig to
draw a very high current for a moment, and see how many amps it has to
draw to drag the voltage down to 9.something volts.  For these batts,
that may be like 80 amps- 200 amps.  This test is irrelevant for a
Robomower.  We don't care what CCA value they have.
3.  Capacity test- we drain a fully charged battery at the C/20 rate and
see how long it takes to run down at a standard room temp.  By
nameplate, this is 1.1A for 20 hrs, so it's a very slow test.  This is
the number of interest though.  How did BP test these?  Because, like I
say, this is a very time-consuming test and you say produced 14.8
"amps".  The battery is not 22 amps, it's 22 amp-hrs.  If you run it
down at like 20 amps, the test would reach end capacity within an hour,
but the capacity number is meaningless because high current and low
current discharge capacities are two different things.  Unfortunately
the standard C/20 rate itself is inaccurate at well, since the mower
draws at 4A or so.

If the batt were actually producing 14.8 amp-hrs, then it should have
run your mower for several hours.  If it didn't, it's NOT the battery.
It's the mower.  Or, I should be clear, it could be the wires inside the
battery case but not the Tempest batts themselves, we call the case and
everything inside the "battery".

Unfortunately battery mfgs are reluctant to guarantee any kind of
criteria for capacity endurance.  It is NOT unusual for a mfg to
consider producing 33% under nameplate capacity to be "good".  But at
67% left, it still "works" a device per se.  In fact, capacity certainly
will vary over the life of the batt.  Officially, the test criteria
stated in the datasheets is like 60% or 80% of capacity or something, I
forget.

I can say this, state of the market is that it's actually unusual that a
mfg would replace a battery which produces 12.8v and puts out a few amps
at all.  I had a deep cycle batt under warranty at Wal-Mart that should
have been like 100AH, and it made 1AH.  I argued with them for awhile.
Then I went home, DRAINED THE ACID, and took it to another Wal-Mart.
They ran their little "cold cranking amps tester" thingy and it STILL
said it was "good".  NO ACID.  Couldn't start anything.  Then I just
lied and said the case was leaking acid (look, no acid in it!) and they
swapped it, didn't even want to touch it further.  Yay.

Danny

Ben Sporl wrote:
> I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries tested so I
don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS).  The local Batteries Plus store
said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on a 22 amp battery while the
other is produced 22 amps.  I told Batteries Plus both batteries were under
warranty so hopefully they weren't lying to get a quick sale.
>
> I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a warranty
swap, and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.
>
> Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery assuming
Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it back to IMC Power. 
If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my battery then I'm screwed out
of $131 on two new batteries.  If this happens I don't know what to do.  I
really don't want to spend another $150 on new non-tempest batteries.
>
> In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC Power,
tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them figure it out.
>
>

I'd send them the 2nd battery too.



I hope the Tempests I purchased from Batteryspec.com this past Aug. fare better.
I'm done mowing for the season and they were still outlasting anything else I've
used in the past 6 years.



Tim

> To: robomower@yahoogroups.com
> From: bsporl@...
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:33:54 -0800
> Subject: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure
>
> With all this discussion on the Tempest battery, I wanted to let you know the
latest on my situation.
>
> I bought two Tempests in August from IMC Power. I didn't get to use them much
during September because of all the rain, maybe 2 times. By October the mower
was only running about 30 minutes after a full charge. At the end of October, it
said fully charged, then when I start the mow process, it immediately said
Recharge Batteries.
>
> I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries tested so I
don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS). The local Batteries Plus store
said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on a 22 amp battery while the
other is produced 22 amps. I told Batteries Plus both batteries were under
warranty so hopefully they weren't lying to get a quick sale.
>
> I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a warranty
swap, and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.
>
> Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery assuming
Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it back to IMC Power.
If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my battery then I'm screwed out
of $131 on two new batteries. If this happens I don't know what to do. I really
don't want to spend another $150 on new non-tempest batteries.
>
> In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC Power,
tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them figure it out.
>
> Any suggestions or advice?
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Me too.  Mine I bought in April have been awesome.  No complaints!  I
still think the thermal overrun has been my problem all along.  Now, I
always let my batteries rest overnight before charging and then pull
them off the charger after a couple of days.  I exclusively use the
fast-charger.  My batteries have performed great all summer.



Ben





From: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolff
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:36 AM
To: Robo Mower
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure






I'd send them the 2nd battery too.

I hope the Tempests I purchased from Batteryspec.com this past Aug. fare
better. I'm done mowing for the season and they were still outlasting
anything else I've used in the past 6 years.

Tim

> To: robomower@yahoogroups.com <mailto:robomower%40yahoogroups.com>
> From: bsporl@... <mailto:bsporl%40yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:33:54 -0800
> Subject: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure
>
> With all this discussion on the Tempest battery, I wanted to let you
know the latest on my situation.
>
> I bought two Tempests in August from IMC Power. I didn't get to use
them much during September because of all the rain, maybe 2 times. By
October the mower was only running about 30 minutes after a full charge.
At the end of October, it said fully charged, then when I start the mow
process, it immediately said Recharge Batteries.
>
> I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries
tested so I don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS). The local
Batteries Plus store said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on
a 22 amp battery while the other is produced 22 amps. I told Batteries
Plus both batteries were under warranty so hopefully they weren't lying
to get a quick sale.
>
> I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a
warranty swap, and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.
>
> Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery
assuming Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it
back to IMC Power. If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my
battery then I'm screwed out of $131 on two new batteries. If this
happens I don't know what to do. I really don't want to spend another
$150 on new non-tempest batteries.
>
> In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC
Power, tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them
figure it out.
>
> Any suggestions or advice?
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

__________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What tempest model did you purchase?




________________________________
From: Benjamin Hill <ben@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 11:12:36 AM
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure

 
Me too. Mine I bought in April have been awesome. No complaints! I
still think the thermal overrun has been my problem all along. Now, I
always let my batteries rest overnight before charging and then pull
them off the charger after a couple of days. I exclusively use the
fast-charger. My batteries have performed great all summer.

Ben

From: RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolff
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:36 AM
To: Robo Mower
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure

I'd send them the 2nd battery too.

I hope the Tempests I purchased from Batteryspec. com this past Aug. fare
better. I'm done mowing for the season and they were still outlasting
anything else I've used in the past 6 years.

Tim

> To: robomower@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:robomower% 40yahoogroups. com>
> From: bsporl@yahoo. com <mailto:bsporl% 40yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:33:54 -0800
> Subject: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure
>
> With all this discussion on the Tempest battery, I wanted to let you
know the latest on my situation.
>
> I bought two Tempests in August from IMC Power. I didn't get to use
them much during September because of all the rain, maybe 2 times. By
October the mower was only running about 30 minutes after a full charge.
At the end of October, it said fully charged, then when I start the mow
process, it immediately said Recharge Batteries.
>
> I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries
tested so I don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS). The local
Batteries Plus store said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on
a 22 amp battery while the other is produced 22 amps. I told Batteries
Plus both batteries were under warranty so hopefully they weren't lying
to get a quick sale.
>
> I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a
warranty swap, and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.
>
> Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery
assuming Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it
back to IMC Power. If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my
battery then I'm screwed out of $131 on two new batteries. If this
happens I don't know what to do. I really don't want to spend another
$150 on new non-tempest batteries.
>
> In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC
Power, tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them
figure it out.
>
> Any suggestions or advice?
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222986/ direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bought 2 TD22-12...




________________________________
From: jeff <rainycityguy@...>
To: RoboMower@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 2:39:46 PM
Subject: Re: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure


What tempest model did you purchase?

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Benjamin Hill <ben@benjaminhill. com>
To: RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 11:12:36 AM
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure


Me too. Mine I bought in April have been awesome. No complaints! I
still think the thermal overrun has been my problem all along. Now, I
always let my batteries rest overnight before charging and then pull
them off the charger after a couple of days. I exclusively use the
fast-charger. My batteries have performed great all summer.

Ben

From: RoboMower@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:RoboMower@ yahoogrou ps.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolff
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:36 AM
To: Robo Mower
Subject: RE: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure

I'd send them the 2nd battery too.

I hope the Tempests I purchased from Batteryspec. com this past Aug. fare
better. I'm done mowing for the season and they were still outlasting
anything else I've used in the past 6 years.

Tim

> To: robomower@yahoogrou ps.com <mailto:robomower% 40yahoogroups. com>
> From: bsporl@yahoo. com <mailto:bsporl% 40yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:33:54 -0800
> Subject: [RoboMower] Tempest Failure
>
> With all this discussion on the Tempest battery, I wanted to let you
know the latest on my situation.
>
> I bought two Tempests in August from IMC Power. I didn't get to use
them much during September because of all the rain, maybe 2 times. By
October the mower was only running about 30 minutes after a full charge.
At the end of October, it said fully charged, then when I start the mow
process, it immediately said Recharge Batteries.
>
> I called IMC Power (Ron) and they suggested getting the batteries
tested so I don't waste money on shipping (about $10 USPS). The local
Batteries Plus store said one of the batteries is producing 14.8 amps on
a 22 amp battery while the other is produced 22 amps. I told Batteries
Plus both batteries were under warranty so hopefully they weren't lying
to get a quick sale.
>
> I sent the 14.8 bad-battery back to IMC Power two weeks ago for a
warranty swap, and they called yesterday saying the battery is fine.
>
> Now I need to find another store to test the remaining battery
assuming Batteries Plus messed up, then spend another $10 to ship it
back to IMC Power. If the new store says there's nothing wrong with my
battery then I'm screwed out of $131 on two new batteries. If this
happens I don't know what to do. I really don't want to spend another
$150 on new non-tempest batteries.
>
> In the end, I may just suck it up and send the 2nd battery back to IMC
Power, tell them the batteries aren't working correctly, and let them
figure it out.
>
> Any suggestions or advice?
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
http://clk.atdmt. com/GBL/go/ 171222986/ direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]