I'm starting to do the drill of traversing the Lisp / Scheme universe
and making connections with various local user groups.  I was
particularly inspired by the http://www.lispnyc.org meeting about the
WordEye system.  I did a similar drill when I was more involved with
OCaml.  I started the group out here, then worked with the
http://www.mlsig.org guys, and connected with a SF Bay ML SIG that was
forming up.  Sharing tips with other local user groups is valuable
because they encounter the same problems of staying organized, retaining
interest, and soliciting new members.  Consistent global reference
points for local user groups are valuable.

Brian, in your opinion do we now count as the Seattle area Lisp / Scheme
group?  I notice the following links about "lispsea."
http://alu.cliki.net/lispsea
http://lisp.tech.coop/lispsea

"sealug-l" is also mentioned, but Googling about it reveals nothing.
Additionally, http://www.sealug.org is taken by the Seattle LEGO User's
Group, so it is confusing.

If we're merged, then I think it would be best if we standardize on the
SeaFunc nomenclature and agenda for all external references.  For the
Lisp / Scheme crowds we'd bill ourselves as "a Functional Programming
group with a strong Lisp and Scheme contingent."  Which is fair: of our
3 main organizers (you, me, Jeff) at present we mostly represent (Lisp,
Scheme, OCaml).

Also, how flexible is the Meetup.com group description?  I'm thinking it
would be better if we billed SeaFunc as "Lisp & Scheme & other
functional programming languages."  The "Welcome" and "About" sections
could stand updating.


Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.

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secretary@... wrote:
> <blockquote
>   what="official Lisp NYC announcement">
>
>   From: Heow Eide-Goodman <lists@...>
>   To: lisp@...
>   Date: 30 Mar 2005 12:04:23 -0500
>
>   Please join us for our next meeting on Tuesday, April 12th from
>   7:00 pm to 9:00 pm at Trinity Lutheran Church.
>
>   Bob Coyne, entrepeneur and old-school Lisp developer will be
>   presenting a special lisp-eyes-only preview of WordsEye.  It is the
>   culmination of years of work and highlights the technology that he
>   developed.  It is, of course, written in Lisp.
>
>       WordsEye: Creating 3D scenes from textual descriptions
>
>       WordsEye   allows  untrained   users   to  spontaneously   and
>       interactively create  3D scenes by simply  describing them. By
>       using natural  language, ordinary users can  quickly create 3D
>       scenes  without  having  to  learn special  software,  acquire
>       artistic  skills,  or  even  touch a  desktop  window-oriented
>       interface.   Creating graphics with  natural language  gives a
>       new  sense of  power  to words  and  suggests applications  in
>       education and creative play as  well as the creation of visual
>       art itself. WordsEye  relies on a large database  of 3D models
>       and images  to depict objects and  surface textures.  WordsEye
>       is written in Common Lisp and runs on Linux.
>
>   WordsEye screenshot-goodness can be found here:
>
>     http://www.lispnyc.org/assets/coyne-we-preview.jpg
>
>
>   Directions:
>
>     Trinity Lutheran
>     602 E. 9th St. & Ave B., on Thomkins Square Park
>     http://www.luther95.com/TLESP-NYNY/index.html
>
>     From N,R,Q,W (8th Street NYU Stop) and the 4,5 (Astor Street
>       Stop): Walk East 4 blocks on St. Marks, cross Thomkins Square
> Park.
>
>     From F&V (2nd Ave Stop):
>       Walk E one or two blocks, turn north for 8 short blocks
>
>     From L (1st Ave Stop):
>       Walk E one block, turn sounth for 5 short blocks
>
>     The M9 bus line drops you off at the doorstep and the M15 is near
>     get off on St. Marks & 1st)
>
>     To get there by car, take the FDR (East River Drive) to Houston
>     then go NW till you're at 9th & B.  Week-night parking isn't bad
>     at all, but if you're paranoid about your Caddy or in a hurry,
>     there is a parking garage on 9th between 1st and 3rd Ave.
>
>   - Heow
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Lisp mailing list
>   Lisp@...
>   http://www.lispnyc.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/lisp
>
> </blockquote>
>
>
> Distributed poC TINC:
>
> Jay Sulzberger <secretary@...>
> Corresponding Secretary LXNY
> LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
> http://www.lxny.org

SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
Functional
PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
down
to the best Belgian booze around.

The Mothership lands at 8 pm on Tuesday, April 12 at:

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
Seattle, Washington (USA)
(206)-860-0916
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant

"Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/SeaFunc

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I updated the mlsig.org wiki to reflect more current activity.

http://www.mlsig.org/wiki/MLSIG_2dSeattle

I'm not sure any more about my attendance tonight.  It turns out tonight is my
wife's last night in town for a while (I thought it was tomorrow.)  50/50
chances I make it.  If I don't see you, have fun.


Jeff



On 20/03/05 22:17 -0800, Jeff Henrikson wrote:
>
> I'll be there.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On 15/03/05 13:37 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> >
> > SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
> > Functional
> > PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
> > something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
> > down
> > to the best Belgian booze around.
> >
> > The Mothership lands at 8 pm on Tuesday, March 22nd at:
> >
> > The Stumbling Monk
> > 1635 E. Olive Way
> > Seattle, Washington (USA)
> > (206)-860-0916
> > at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
> > kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant
> >
> > "Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/SeaFunc
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

I'll be there.


Jeff



On 15/03/05 13:37 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
> Functional
> PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
> something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
> down
> to the best Belgian booze around.
>
> The Mothership lands at 8 pm on Tuesday, March 22nd at:
>
> The Stumbling Monk
> 1635 E. Olive Way
> Seattle, Washington (USA)
> (206)-860-0916
> at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
> kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant
>
> "Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/SeaFunc
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
Functional
PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
down
to the best Belgian booze around.

The Mothership lands at 8 pm on Tuesday, March 22nd at:

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
Seattle, Washington (USA)
(206)-860-0916
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant

"Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament

http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/SeaFunc

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 3/15/2005

I've decided I'm not doing my game prototyping in Python.  Nor, for that
matter, with Nebula2.  I'm starting to accept the reality that the
Nebula2 3D engine is *very* rough for a newbie to use.  No Python demo
code, I'd have to write it.  No free 3D model importer, I'd have to
write it.  I'm pretty much against writing "basic stuff" just to get
started on what I need to do.  Python was mainly about getting the
communal parts of my project done, like 3D model import and
manipulation.  As I've worked on my game AI designs more, I've decided
Python is going to run out of performance headroom almost immediately.
I must have something compiled and high performance.

My interim plan is to write only the AI code.  I'll use an extremely
rudimentary 2D map display, whatever works.  Later I'll throw it away
and worry about how to integrate the game + AI code into a proper 3D
engine.

I've started looking at Bigloo Scheme again, but I will probably not be
satisfied by the level of Windows support offered.  Haskell is out: too
slow, cares about purity things I don't care about.  Clean is unusual in
that it's Windows-centric rather than UNIX-centric, but I feel it is too
weird and provencial to risk all my development on.  Mercury is weird,
is UNIX-centric, has few users, and I never really got it going on my
box.  OCaml has better support overall than Bigloo, and possibly better
Windows support, but is still quite UNIX-centric.  OCaml isn't as weird
as Clean or Mercury, but is somewhat weird, and really gets in the way
of my low level coding impulses.

I'm curious what Lisps are compiled and play well with Visual Studio
2003 (aka VS7.1).  I think commercial game development tools are
inevitably going to pull me towards VS7.1, for things like modeling
SDKs, 3D engines, and so forth.

I wonder what the bar is for deciding a language is 'weird' ?  I'm
thinking it has to do with how far a language has made it through a
standards process.  Failing that, the size of the community, i.e. OCaml
is less weird than Clean or Mercury because it has more people using it.
This is probably a reversal of causality, but it's useful for
discriminating the potential utility and risk of various languages.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005

SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
Functional
PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
down
to the best Belgian booze around. The Mothership lands Tuesday, March
22nd
at:

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
Seattle, Washington (USA)
(206)-860-0916
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant

We had 6 people last time, so come on down!  Make it larger, larger
man...

"Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament

The following is some gloom and doom about OpenGL vs. functional
languages that care about type safety.  I think this post demonstrates
how little practical use certain functional languages have *right now*
in the domain of 3D graphics.

Cheers,
Brandon


"Jon Harrop" <jdh30@...> wrote in message
news:<41f5092d$0$29355$ed2e19e4@...>...
>
> I'd appreciate comments and criticisms on this from any FPL wizards:
>
> Chris Clearwater wrote:
> > ...This shouldn't take longer than a morning...
>
> I know quite a bit about OpenGL and I've helped write bindings
> to OpenGL for ocaml (which I am going to use in a commercial package)
so
> I'll give you some advice. Essentially, I think you will find it
> considerably harder than you imagine if you want to do this properly.
:-)
>
> Basically, if you set the bar really low then yes, you could knock-up
some
> bindings in a morning. However, these bindings would be completely
unsafe
> and, IMHO, this would be a real weak point and a really bad idea
because it
> obviates the point of using a safe language.
>
> Permit me to rant. Writing graphical programs is outrageously
gratifying. I
> believe FPLs would be adopted much more rapidly if beginners could use
> these safe languages to write aesthetic, graphical programs safely. I
would
> love to see this. However, if the same people were preached to about
the
> safety of FPLs only to find that the bindings to useful libaries were
> unsafe and that their programs were just as faulty as the C programs
they
> can already write, they would leave FPLs in droves.
>
> So what can we do to make for safer OpenGL and GLU bindings? Is it
feasible
> to make them completely safe?
>
> We should start by looking at the sources of errors in OpenGL programs
(off
> the top of my head):
>
> 1. Calling API with an invalid enum (e.g. glBegin(GL_TRUE)).
> 2. Incorrect deletion of "entities" when others still depend upon them
(e.g.
> display list A calls display list B but the user deletes B).
> 3. Invalid access (array out of bounds, accessing deleted objects
etc.).
> 4. Incorrect order of API calls (e.g. using glTranslate(...) between
> glBegin(...); ...; glEnd()).
> 5. Incorrect use of unsafe types (e.g. the metadata used by the
callbacks of
> the GLU tesselator).
>
> The way I see it, these problems can be very effectively addressed
using
> techniques found in many functional languages:
>
> 1. Use variants instead of enumerated integers.
> 2. Make dependencies explicit and garbage collect "entities".
> 3. Check array bounds.
> 4. Firstly, wrap as many code blocks as possible in HOFs to enforce
the
> correct ordering of calls. Secondly, use phantom types to enforce
allowable
> calls (if this is even possible).
> 5. Do not export the type-unsafe subsets of the OpenGL/GLU APIs but,
> instead, wrap them into a type safe interface (e.g. using functors).
>
> There are difficulties though:
>
> 1. Verbosity (use polymorphic variants?).
> 2. When resources are tight (e.g. textures), users will want to delete
> "entities" explicitly.
> 3. Out of bounds accesses cannot only occur in the host language,
invalid
> bounds can be generated by API calls with invalid arguments (e.g.
> glDrawElements).
> 4. HOFs may incur performance penalties (probably insignificant) and
may not
> be able to handle all eventualities. Phantom types may produce
obfuscated
> error messages.
> 5. Tricky (to date, nobody has managed to do this AFAIK).
>
> Overall, I think that writing OpenGL bindings for FPLs is an extremely
> worthwhile task but doing it properly will take years. I think it
would be
> a great PhD project for someone...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon.
>
> PS: I should stress that I'm a physicist and know little about FPLs.
> PPS: IMHO there are far more important and interesting things to worry
about
> here than GL.glVertex3D vs GL.vertex3D.
>
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Oops. Sure, that'd work. I think I was just lazy at computing the next
date.

On Mar 7, 2005, at 11:03 PM, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

>
> It looks like Brian has scheduled a Meetup for Monday, March 21, 8 pm,
> at The Stumbling Monk.  Problem: I have an ongoing conflict on Mondays.
> For my signature gathering job that's the "turn in" night.  Previously
> we've been meeting on Tuesdays.  I'd like to continue with that pattern
> if nobody else has a conflict.  If Tuesdays are bad for somebody for
> some reason, then let's re-negotiate, as Mondays are bad for me.
>
>
> Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA
>
> "We live in a world of very bright people building
> crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
>                                 - Ed McKenzie
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Brian T. Rice
LOGOS Research and Development
http://tunes.org/~water/

It looks like Brian has scheduled a Meetup for Monday, March 21, 8 pm,
at The Stumbling Monk.  Problem: I have an ongoing conflict on Mondays.
For my signature gathering job that's the "turn in" night.  Previously
we've been meeting on Tuesdays.  I'd like to continue with that pattern
if nobody else has a conflict.  If Tuesdays are bad for somebody for
some reason, then let's re-negotiate, as Mondays are bad for me.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
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Brian Rice wrote:
>
> http://www.vlerq.org/vlerq/Home

Other typical annoyances are: blowing off 32-bit floats in favor of
supporting only 64-bit doubles, keeping floats or doubles boxed, not
being able to interface directly to a C struct or control memory layout
as a C struct would want it.  How does Vlerq fare in these regards, do
you know?


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
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This is mostly for Brandon, re: his complaints about high-level
languages often limiting integers to 31 bits to simplify the GC. This
one's crossed my radar before, and isn't stellar, but could be helpful.

http://www.vlerq.org/vlerq/Home

--
Brian T. Rice
LOGOS Research and Development
http://tunes.org/~water/

Jeff Henrikson wrote:
> Brandon Van Every wrote:
> >
> > Components: Lisp, Smalltalk, something called the Keykit language,
> > Keykit, GNU Emacs, Timidity, CSound, Lowkey, Wavesurfer,
> Squeak, TCP/IP.
> >
> > I have no idea if this system is any good for anyone other than the
> > author.  I've become interested in audio and visual art
> > tools lately.
>
> The problem is glue doesn't substitute for design.

In fairness to the author of the music system, perhaps his designing
occurs in the topmost layer of his system, where he actually uses it.
Perhaps he refines it in an iterative, prototyping fashion, and perhaps
his hands-on use of the system actually yields substantial improvements
to a working musician.  But to his discredit, none of that is vaguely
communicated by his website.  I don't trust that his system is going to
be easy to set up or duplicate, let alone that it'll give *me*
productivity advantages.  It may, or it may not, but I've taken far too
many risks with far too many people's open source projects to feel
confident about this sort of thing.

Generally, the problem is that ease-of-use for others is usually ignored
by open source types.  Open source is much more dominated by people who
believe in "roll your own."

People who do take ease-of-use seriously, generally go through the
presentation steps necessary to assure it.  That music system author
might be the exception, but I don't feel like spending a few days of my
time to find out.

The STALIN Scheme archive poses a similar dilemma for me.  All I have to
go on is a FTP site and an e-mail from the author.  I've gotten as far
as downloading it all, but I really have to dig to figure out why I'd
want it + all the other free tools the guy has written on top of it.
Bigloo Scheme is far better presented in the "we'd like people to
possibly use this" dept., so I got farther with it.  Even then, it is
substandard compared to OCaml, which is viable but substandard compared
to Python.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie


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I have some thoughts for our Amazonian friends.  (Michael, ?, Riley)  Did any of
you get onto the list, perchance?  (Hello out there!)

> Components: Lisp, Smalltalk, something called the Keykit language,
> Keykit, GNU Emacs, Timidity, CSound, Lowkey, Wavesurfer, Squeak, TCP/IP.
>
> I have no idea if this system is any good for anyone other than the
> author.  I've become interested in audio and visual art tools lately.

Yeah, this reminds me of a project description that I read on free big-data
statstics software.  Paraphrased master plan "Let's take this long list of
ad-hoc not designed for the task components and break out the duct tape.  Surely
enough duct tape can make something work."  Here's the description.  Partly
makes me tired and partly makes me laugh.

http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/gestalt_manifesto_full_097.html

The problem is glue doesn't substitute for design.

IMHO, the glue code is more expensive than writing a new toolkit for large
read-only DBMS, and no amount of glue code will replace a good toolkit design. 
Get a good large-data toolkit and the right R glue and you have an excellent
big-data stats platform.  I think the success of sa$ is a powerful testament
that ordering the DBMS is an important first step to be able to blend iterative
and relational transformations.

In any case I think these music friends are after a different problem than my
pet problem.


Jeff

DARCS is an advanced revision control system, implemented in Haskell.
We discussed it briefly at the end of the meeting.  I've located the
following blurb about its benefits over CVS.
http://mark.stosberg.com/Tech/darcs/cvs_switch/

The DARCS wiki itself:
http://www.scannedinavian.org/DarcsWiki


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Ah. So here's the Elisp bit:

> Developing GeoMaestro implied writing a lot of code. This was done
> with Emacs, using a specific mode which notably allows a direct
> control of Keykit through Emacs, bypassing the Keykit console.
>
> Working with Csound also implies writing a lot of code. This lead to
> the developement of Csound modes for Emacs, initially extending the
> existing modes written by John ffitch. It made it possible there again
> to drive Csound (and specially its multiple variations and command
> line options) directly from Emacs.

It kind of figured. At least they're not using Emacs for some awful
process-control. :)

On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

>
> Posting this because I intend to bring it up tonight, and people might
> want the link.  http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/devover.html  The guy
> who
> put it together says:
>
> "I am an illiterate computer music student. I can not read music,
> neither play any instrument or sing. Most musical composition software
> assume a basic knowledge of music that I do not have, thus I have been
> driven to program my own tools for composing. They are presented in
> this
> page."
>
> Components: Lisp, Smalltalk, something called the Keykit language,
> Keykit, GNU Emacs, Timidity, CSound, Lowkey, Wavesurfer, Squeak,
> TCP/IP.
>
> I have no idea if this system is any good for anyone other than the
> author.  I've become interested in audio and visual art tools lately.
>
>
> Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA
>
> "We live in a world of very bright people building
> crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
>                                 - Ed McKenzie
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Brian T. Rice
LOGOS Research and Development
http://tunes.org/~water/

Posting this because I intend to bring it up tonight, and people might
want the link.  http://www.zogotounga.net/comp/devover.html  The guy who
put it together says:

"I am an illiterate computer music student. I can not read music,
neither play any instrument or sing. Most musical composition software
assume a basic knowledge of music that I do not have, thus I have been
driven to program my own tools for composing. They are presented in this
page."

Components: Lisp, Smalltalk, something called the Keykit language,
Keykit, GNU Emacs, Timidity, CSound, Lowkey, Wavesurfer, Squeak, TCP/IP.

I have no idea if this system is any good for anyone other than the
author.  I've become interested in audio and visual art tools lately.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeaFunc/

SeaFunc is Seattle. SeaFunc is functional. Functional language.
Functional
PRO-gramming. We shall attempt to adjust your software, as there is
something wrong. You're in a C funk. Get out of your C funk. Stumble on
down
to the best Belgian booze around. The Mothership lands on Tuesday, March
1st, 2005 at:

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
Seattle, Washington (USA)
(206)-860-0916
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant

"Make my func the SeaFunc, I wants to get funked up." - Parliament

--
Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie

From: Jeff Henrikson
> This date is fine with me.
> >
> > Tuesday, March 1, 7:00 pm
> >
> > The Stumbling Monk
> > 1635 E. Olive Way
> > Seattle, Washington (USA)
> > (206)-860-0916
> > at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
> > kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant

Ok, I say it's official!  People have had a few days to respond.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
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This date is fine with me.


Jeff



On 13/02/05 12:31 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> It's time to negotiate the next meeting time and location.  I'm going
> through an upswing of comp.lang.functional postings / debates and I want
> to announce something.  I propose:
>
> Tuesday, March 1, 7:00 pm
>
> The Stumbling Monk
> 1635 E. Olive Way
> Seattle, Washington (USA)
> (206)-860-0916
> at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
> kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant
>
>
> Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
> Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA
>
> "We live in a world of very bright people building
> crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
>                                 - Ed McKenzie
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

It's time to negotiate the next meeting time and location.  I'm going
through an upswing of comp.lang.functional postings / debates and I want
to announce something.  I propose:

Tuesday, March 1, 7:00 pm

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
Seattle, Washington (USA)
(206)-860-0916
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
--
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005

It wasn't really discussed, but everyone seemed to agree on merging
when it was brought up, and I don't think the details bother anyone. No
one committed to hosting, etc.

Of course, I don't really speak for anyone, I'm just summarizing what
you missed! Speak up if you have preferences. I'll definitely throw in
my agreement on your responses.

On Feb 9, 2005, at 9:14 AM, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

>
> I came late to the 1st meeting last night, so I will ask if the
> following points were discussed:
>
> - is this Yahoo! Groups mailing list still deemed a satisfactory
> mailing
> list?
>
> - did anyone commit to providing a "better" mailing list?
>
> - does anyone commit to providing a SeaFunc domain name?
>
> - what meeting schedule do people want?
>
> - what venue do people want?
>
> If they weren't discussed, or were inconclusive, I can certainly offer:
> "This list is fine, worry about domain names later, meet every 3 weeks,
> change the venue to the Monk" as answers.  The latter, in particular,
> is
> mainly about quality of beer.  I do concede that 15th street has better
> parking.  I don't know what variable is more critical to people.
> Personally I put a premium on the beer.  :-)
--
Brian T. Rice
LOGOS Research and Development
http://tunes.org/~water/

I came late to the 1st meeting last night, so I will ask if the
following points were discussed:

- is this Yahoo! Groups mailing list still deemed a satisfactory mailing
list?

- did anyone commit to providing a "better" mailing list?

- does anyone commit to providing a SeaFunc domain name?

- what meeting schedule do people want?

- what venue do people want?

If they weren't discussed, or were inconclusive, I can certainly offer:
"This list is fine, worry about domain names later, meet every 3 weeks,
change the venue to the Monk" as answers.  The latter, in particular, is
mainly about quality of beer.  I do concede that 15th street has better
parking.  I don't know what variable is more critical to people.
Personally I put a premium on the beer.  :-)


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
--
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Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> Hopefully next time we'll all be more on the ball, and
> experiences will meet expectations.

I'm pleased that this time around, more people showed up than I would
have guessed!  We had 6 at peak?


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.

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Jeff Henrikson wrote:
>
> Well I for one am showing up tomorrow.

I'll be there later.

> Brandon, sorry to not
> resonate with Wed. night meeting.  I've had to miss stuff to
> show up on your schedule before, so I hope it's all a wash.
> If you can come late, great, or we can do another one soon.

I don't mind things getting shuffled around, missed, late, etc. when
that's the ordinary, inevitable course of events.  I do somewhat mind
when I send an e-mail asking for a reschedule a few weeks in advance, it
is not noticed, nobody communicates about it until it's too late to do
anything, nobody says whether they're showing up, people are slow to get
on a mailing list, etc.  I don't mind it much in the scheme of things,
it's a minor gripe, but I do think communication on such matters can be
improved.  My perspective is the chosen meeting place and time was
random Meetup.com goobledygoo.  It should have been malleable, by the
same process we've decided MLSIG meetups in the past, i.e. communication
about what people's conflicts are.

Hopefully next time we'll all be more on the ball, and experiences will
meet expectations.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005

Likewise. I'll be busy Wednesday night on another event.

On Feb 7, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Jeff Henrikson wrote:

>
> Well I for one am showing up tomorrow.  Brandon, sorry to not resonate
> with Wed. night meeting.  I've had to miss stuff to show up on your
> schedule before, so I hope it's all a wash.  If you can come late,
> great, or we can do another one soon.
>
> For those who need a reminder:
>
> Tuesday, February 8, 2005 at 8:00 PM
> Where:
> Canterbury Ale & Eats
> 534 15th Ave E
> Seattle, WA 98112
> 206-322-3130
> Map
>
>
> Jeff Henrikson
--
Brian T. Rice
LOGOS Research and Development
http://tunes.org/~water/

Well I for one am showing up tomorrow.  Brandon, sorry to not resonate with Wed.
night meeting.  I've had to miss stuff to show up on your schedule before, so I
hope it's all a wash.  If you can come late, great, or we can do another one
soon.

For those who need a reminder:

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 at 8:00 PM
Where:
Canterbury Ale & Eats
534 15th Ave E
Seattle, WA 98112
206-322-3130
Map


Jeff Henrikson

Jeff Henrikson wrote:
>
> I would prefer not to refactor the mailing lists and rearrange
> long-term meeting times until we have actually met and think
> the group merger is a good idea.

I don't consider this to be a group merger.  I consider this to be the
creation of SeaFunc.

SeaFunc will live or die according to supply and demand.  So will the
other groups and mailing lists.  All I want out of scheduling, is to
avoid conflicts with the meeting times of other people's groups.  I've
never run any of these groups on a regular schedule anyways.  It's
always been an approximate schedule of 3 weeks, beit MLSeattle or Art
Gang! or whatever.  None of these groups have gotten large enough to
worry about something more regimented and predictable.  Heck, nowdays
Art Gang! is whenever I can get 1 other person to say they'll show up
somewhere.  Flaky artists.

> Brandon, is it a crisis to miss the DP meetup for one month?

It's only the 2nd DP meeting, so I'm not skipping it.  The DP group
needs continuity to get started.  I can possibly pull double duty and go
to both meetings.  If so, I will saunter in somewhat late to SeaFunc.

> I just did that because it was a path of least resistance,

I haven't heard confirmation that people are planning to show up.  I
suppose you and I are good for it; who else?  The Scheme folk didn't
show up to the Scheme meeting last time.  The scheduling is just
auto-generated Meetup gobbledygoo.  Now, of course you did the
scheduling this time, but who has confirmed that they're coming?  Have
Brian and Stephen confirmed?  Anyone else?  My experience has been, I
don't believe people are coming unless they actually say so.

> but would like to stick with it because it's been posted for
> a couple of weeks now.  We can move the date after that.  If
> we really need to do next Wednesday I'd have to come late, a
> little after 8:30 or so.

We're in a mutex.  One of us comes late.  :-)  But I didn't say we had
to meet on Wednesday.  All I said was, not this coming Tuesday the 8th.

> If we go with a new mailing list we also need to decide
> between default transfer or default no transfer of mailing
> list members.

Not really.  Yahoo Groups has abolished the transfer function.  I can
only invite people to join the new list.  That's pretty much
self-selecting.  Now, if someone wants to cough up a proper SeaFunc
domain name, we could revisit the issue.  But we did have this
discussion amongst the 4 principal instigators already, and a domain
name wasn't offered.  Ergo, Yahoo Groups Gets It Done [TM], for now.

> It's difficult to tell an interested from an
> uninterested lurker.  Renaming lists probably breaks some
> people's mail filters.

Life Is Hard.

> Sorry that this discussion of logistics of a face-to-face
> meeting group that never met is making me tired and cranky.
> Seems sort of self defeating.  I would like if possible to
> talk basic logistics in person too.  I'll try to come with a
> logistics list to run through.

Um, are you sure you're not *way* overthinking how to get a group
started?  At present, this can't be an uber-professional regional SIG
with 100 people showing up.  I've tried to do that with *Seattle
SIGGRAPH*, to ressurrect it from a moribund state, and it didn't fly.  I
couldn't even get 3 people to show up for Chinese food.  So pardon me if
for the moment, I think this is about 4 guys showing up for beer to
discuss their favorite programming languages.  Same thing we've all done
before, just with a different faceplate attached.  The idea is the new
faceplate may be more sustainable and have more growth potential, as it
casts the net wider than a Scheme group or a ML group or whatever.


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
--
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The list currently has Brian and Brandon on it, but not Stephen and
Jeff.  Please join to facilitate logistics.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SeaFunc

I said earlier that there's a permanent conflict between the scheduling
of the Scheme Meetup group and the Digital Photography Meetup group.  So
I don't want to follow the Scheme group's schedule, and I'd also prefer
to change the venue.

I propose Wednesday, Feb. 9, at The Stumbling Monk.  Time is open to
discussion.  Any start time between 6 pm to 8 pm works for me.  What do
you want?

If Wednesday is not good, then Thursday, the following Monday, or even
the following Tuesday works.  The important thing is to be off-sync with
the Digital Photography group; I don't have anything against Tuesdays in
general.

The Stumbling Monk
1635 E. Olive Way
at corner of Olive and Belmont in Capitol Hill
kitty corner from the B&O Restaurant
(206)-860-0916


Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                 - Ed McKenzie
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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