This AppleScript doesn't work...but it did two days ago when I wrote
it:

tell application "FileMaker Pro"
	 activate
	 tell database 1
		 set TheStyledText to cell "text1" of current record as styled
text
	 end tell
end tell

tell application "Style"
	 activate
	 close every window saving no
	 make new document
	 set contents of document 1 to TheStyledText -- as styled text
end tell

At the command
	 "set contents of document 1 to TheStyledText"
It errors out with
	 "Style got an error: Some data could not be read."

System 9.1 - PowerMac G4 - w/Style 1.9b1-supplied extensions installed

HELP! Am I talking to "document 1" with the wrong syntax or command?

Please respond to: cnitz@...

Thanks.

On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:11:25 -0000,
Chris Nitz (christopher_a_nitz@...) wrote:

>This AppleScript doesn't work...but it did two days ago when I wrote
>it:
>
>tell application "FileMaker Pro"
> activate
> tell database 1
>  set TheStyledText to cell "text1" of current record as styled
>text
> end tell
>end tell
>
>tell application "Style"
> activate
> close every window saving no
> make new document
> set contents of document 1 to TheStyledText -- as styled text
>end tell
>
>At the command
> "set contents of document 1 to TheStyledText"
>It errors out with
> "Style got an error: Some data could not be read."
>
>System 9.1 - PowerMac G4 - w/Style 1.9b1-supplied extensions installed
>
>HELP! Am I talking to "document 1" with the wrong syntax or command?

No, the Style part of your script looks perfectly okay to me.
Once all other documents have been closed, document 1 must
refer to the newly created document, so that line's fine.

I suspect the problem is that TheStyledText doesn't contain
valid data for some reason.  Try adding a line like this:

   display dialog TheStyledText

between the FileMaker block and the Style block, and make
sure the text shown in the dialog is what you expect.

Also, try turning on the Event Log in the Script Editor
while you execute the script, and check carefully what's
being exchanged between FMP, Style and your script.

Hope this helps,


                                     -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:13:30 -0800,
Richard Borski (ivanhoe38@...) wrote:

>Everytime I use style it tries to bring up my internet
>browser to connect to the web.
>Why is it doing that, how can I stop it?

What you're probably seeing is Style attempting to connect
to the "version control server" to check whether a new
version of itself is available.

Two ways to stop this:

1. Go to the Preferences dialog and uncheck the "Allow
    Version Checking" box.  This will disable version
    checking altogether.

    or, if you have a dial-up (modem) connection:

2. Open the Remote Access control panel.
    Click the "Options..." button.
    Click the "Protocol" tab in the window that appears.
    Uncheck the "Connect automatically when starting
    TCP/IP applications" box.
    This will allow Style to perform its checking, but
    only after you have manually dialed your ISP.

Hope this helps,


                                  -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:11:25 -0000,
Chris Nitz (christopher_a_nitz@...) wrote:

>>>At the command
>>> "set contents of document 1 to TheStyledText"
>>>It errors out with
>>> "Style got an error: Some data could not be read."
>>>
>>>System 9.1 - PowerMac G4 - w/Style 1.9b1-supplied extensions installed


>>I suspect the problem is that TheStyledText doesn't contain
>>valid data for some reason.


You are correct. Thank you so much for your help.
The "bug" I'm looking for is not in Style, nor in Filemaker exactly.

I did some tests over the weekend, and your advice was a test I did.
It helped me isolate my bug.
I will be doing some more updates/tests to my script this morning:

To FILEMAKER, there is a difference between "text" and "styled text".
So I must identify (or do a try/on error) on the data in FileMaker 5
before I send it to Style 1.9b1.
If it's plain text, I must cooerce it to styled text first, and THEN it's
safe to do the rest of my script in Style as I've written it.

Leave it to a database to take things (text/styled text) so literally.

Perhaps this is something that WASTELib could learn to translate
eventually?
I think "managing styled text" is a fairly common issue for AppleScripters
using FileMaker.

Thank you for your prompt response!

-Chris Nitz

Friends:

Since there is not yet much discussion on this list, I thought I
would forward a message I sent to Marco a few weeks ago concerning my
use of Style as a adjunct to the word processor WordSmith on my Palm
computer. I hope you agree that there are strong possibilities here.
Marco responded that he was intrigued by the idea, though he had some
important deadlines soon that took precedence. What do you think?

Best wishes,
Clint


-- ------(Included text)----------
Marco:

I want to suggest that you think about adding support in your program
Style for the Palm word processor WordSmith.

It has been a while since I contacted you about Style. However, since
revisiting Style 1.8, I have fallen in love with it all over again.
The AppleScript support is now rock-solid (and I am proud to see my
name in your credits as a beta tester!). What I am particularly fond
of right now is your "native" support for Rich Text Format. I can now
type and save documents directly in RTF and never have to open
Microsoft Word -- this is great!

I don't know whether you have paid attention to happenings in the
Palm PDA world. However, it seems to me that your excellent
application Style might be a perfect match with a new Palm word
processor called WordSmith:

<http://www.bluenomad.com/>

In general, until WordSmith there were no word processors on the
Palm, just text editors. WordSmith is the first (I believe) to offer
even text styles such as bold and italic, much less support for
different fonts. Because of this, WordSmith has become an instant
success on Palm Pilots.

On the PC, WordSmith can import and export files directly through a
conduit that synchronizes with Microsoft Word. Apparently, it uses
RTF as an intermediate. Of course on Macs support is more
rudimentary. Blue Nomad has a conversion utility with a minimal
(nonexistent, really) interface that can convert files from RTF to
the Palm WordSmith format and back. The developers promise stronger
Mac support in the future, though I am sure they are already
overwhelmed by the current success of WordSmith.

Since Style now supports RTF natively, I have taken to using Style to
share documents between my Mac and my Palm Vx. Because of the rustic
tools to convert files to WordSmith format, it is not effortless, but
Style has certainly made the process easier.

I wonder whether, if you were to contact the developers of WordSmith
(they seem very approachable), you could work a deal to make Style
part of the Macintosh support for WordSmith. I don't know what it
entails to make conduit support for the Palm, but the AppleScripting
and attachability in Style might make it an easier task. A less
ambitious approach might be to improve Blue Nomad's conversion
utility to the point it can at least accept core AppleEvents. Then
you could write a purely Scripting solution. Of course, I don't know
whether any of this is possible, since I am not a programmer.
-- ------(End included text)----------

What do you think?

Best wishes,
Clint

--
\ Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald   \ mailto:cbbccm2@...
   \ Cell Biology & Biochemistry\ 806/743-2703
    \ Texas Tech University HSC  \ 806/743-2990 (FAX)
     \ Lubbock, TX 79430          \
      \ http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/

With the excellent scripting capacities of Style, I'm finding my
ability to use Style more frequebtly is being limited by my own
scripting experience.

If I were to begin to introduce a way to implement some more
sophisticated text editor functions such as being able to set tabs,
line spacing, set up templates for business letters- how would i
go about it.  That would let me use Style and AS to prepare and
process docs using a variety of datsbases for data sourcing.

A goal would be to never use MS for word processing again.

Craig

Craig:

At 1:02 PM +0000 2001-03-17, suthercd@... wrote:
>A goal would be to never use MS for word processing again.

What a great goal! While I think Style is darn good, it lacks some
key features of true word processors. This is largely due to its
roots as a sophisticated *text* processor that has received some
tremendous upgrades and font support. As far as I know, Style lacks
paragraph formatting rulers and support for page breaks, and they
might not fit into Marco Piovanelli's vision of what Style should be
(I do *not* speak for Mr. Piovanelli here, it is only my opinion).

That being said, I have been using Style as an adjunct to the
WordSmith word processor on my Palm Vx, in an effort to achieve just
what you propose.

>With the excellent scripting capacities of Style, I'm finding my
>ability to use Style more frequebtly is being limited by my own
>scripting experience.
>
>If I were to begin to introduce a way to implement some more
>sophisticated text editor functions such as being able to set tabs,
>line spacing, set up templates for business letters- how would i go
>about it.

I think you are right on the money with both comments. The way I set
up Style for word processing combines AppleScripts and templates:

First, to set up paragraph styles, you pretty much have to use
AppleScript. Here is an example of a simple, one-line script that
sets up a double-spaced paragraph with a first-line indent of 0.25
inch:

-- ------(Included script)----------
tell application "Style" to set properties of selection to {space
before:"0 pt", space after:"0 pt", first indent:"0.25 in",
justification:left, line spacing:2}
-- ------(End included script)----------

(be cautious of weird word wrapping that might happen in e-mail -- it
should all be one line).

Save this using the AppleScript Editor in the "My Paragraph Styles"
folder inside the "Style Scripts" folder, giving it a title like
"Double spaced indented." It will show up in the little Scripts menu
(between "Windows" and "Help"). If you choose "Double spaced
indented" from the menu, and your paragraph will be magically changed
to those features.

Similarly, you can set up character styles. I routinely use the
Symbol font, so I have the following script in the "My Character
Styles" folder:

-- ------(Included script)----------
tell application "Style"
     set properties of selection to {font:"Symbol", size:12, style:{},
color:black}
end tell
-- ------(End included script)----------

(again, watch the line wraps -- three lines, this time).

Save this script as "Symbol 12\2" in the "My Character Styles"
folder. The "\2" notation makes it show up in the menu as "Symbol 12
splat-2" (where "splat" is the little butterfly character next to the
Apple on the command key). Then, when I want to shift to the Symbol
font, I choose command-2, then type away. To Switch back to Palatino,
I have another script for the font Palatino with command-1 as the
command. (If I remember correctly, Style already had some other
scripts with command-1 and command-2 as their commands, so I renamed
them without the "\1" in the name.)

>[...] set up templates for business letters- how would i go about it.

The best way to do this might be to set up one dummy letter with all
your paragraph settings as you like them, then save the file as a
Stationary document (use "Save As..." rather than "Save").

Let us know how this works out for you!

Best wishes,
Clint

--
\ Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald   \ mailto:cbbccm2@...
   \ Cell Biology & Biochemistry\ 806/743-2703
    \ Texas Tech University HSC  \ 806/743-2990 (FAX)
     \ Lubbock, TX 79430          \
      \ http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
StyleUsers group:

Do you plan on adopting Mac OS X 1.0 on your main Macintosh?

   o Yes, as soon as I get my copy.
   o Yes, within a few weeks.
   o Possibly (depends on application vendor adoption).
   o No, I'm waiting for the 1.1 (summer) release.
   o No, my current hardware isn't supported by Mac OS X.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StyleUsers/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

I've always wondered about this: what do I lose or gain going between the
document types Style and Text?  What's the difference?  I can't see anything
obvious.

Friends:

Marco set up this poll, and I recommend everyone respond. However, I
want to point out that responding to the poll requires that one
register with Yahoo Groups AND create a valid Yahoo e-mail account.

At 11:08 AM +0000 2001-03-19, StyleUsers@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
>StyleUsers group:
>
>Do you plan on adopting Mac OS X 1.0 on your main Macintosh?
>
>[...]


(Oh, and as a nit-pick, I believe the official name is "Mac OS X
10.0," not "1.0.")

Best wishes,
Clint
(whose brand-new Yahoo e-mail is <mailto:clintmacd@...>)

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:05:09 -0000,
drioh@... (drioh@...) wrote:

>I've always wondered about this: what do I lose or gain going between the
>document types Style and Text?  What's the difference?  I can't see anything
>obvious.

This isn't a dumb question at all.
You're right in saying that the difference isn't obvious.

Let me try and explain.

First of all, all Macintosh text editors and word processors
(i.e., BBEdit and Microsoft Word) can open 'TEXT' files, while
only Style (and XTND-enabled programs) can open Style files.

"Text" is standard.  "Style" is proprietary.

On the other hand, the Style format guarantees that all
attributes associated with a document (character and
formatting attributes, document background color, page
setup settings, etc.) are preserved.  This may not always
be true for other formats, although I try my best to
ensure round-trip fidelity for all supported formats
(Style, text, Unicode text and RTF).

A deeper difference between "Text" and "Style" has to
do with "forks".

Each and every file on a Macintosh volume can actually
be a *pair* of "twin" files, technically known as the data
fork and the resource fork of the file.  Both forks always
travel together and can't be separated when the file is
moved, copied or renamed by the Finder.  The illusion of
one-ness is so perfect that most users don't know (and
don't *need* to know) there are actually two underlying
forks.  However, this illusion may go away when you
transfer a Macintosh file to another operating system,
such as Windows or Unix, that doesn't have the concept
of "forks".  When you do this, in most cases, only the
data fork is transferred, while the resource fork is
lost.

Well, it turns out that 'TEXT' files store the "raw"
characters in the data fork, and all formatting attributes
in the resource fork.  You can see this for yourself if
you have a program like ResEdit.  If you edit a TEXT file
with a program that doesn't understand styles, like BBEdit,
the text and the associated styles will go out of sync.
If you upload a TEXT file to a Unix machine (e.g., a web
server) via ftp, chances are you'll lose all formatting
attributes.

On the other hand, the "Style" format doesn't use the
resource fork, so it can safely be moved to non-Macintosh
disks.  Incidentally, Mac OS X will allow you to use volumes
in formats that don't support resource forks, like UFS
(Unix File System).  As a consequence, Apple is phasing
out resource forks in OS X, so a data fork-only format
like the "Style" format (or RTF) is probably better suited
to OS X than the styled TEXT format.


                                     -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

Thanks for your detailed reply; it was very clear.  However, my question was
more
along the lines of "what features are lost when saving to Text format?"  I keep
expecting a dialog box to pop up saying something like, "If you save in Text
format, you will lose some formatting features in this document."

After some testing though, it seems the text format is more robust than I
expected.  Things like embedded pictures survive through a Word save (although
Word doesn't display them).  I did notice the character formatting go out of
sync
after revising the text.

Do you save ALL the excess "baggage" in the resource fork?  I plan to use Style
primarily within the Mac OS, and I want to use the Text format as my primary
format as long as I know that it will preserve all of Style's features.  IOW, if
I only
use Style, then does Style format = Text format?


--- In StyleUsers@y..., Marco Piovanelli <marco.piovanelli@p...> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:05:09 -0000,
> drioh@y... (drioh@y...) wrote:
>
> >I've always wondered about this: what do I lose or gain going between the
> >document types Style and Text?  What's the difference?  I can't see anything
> >obvious.
>
> This isn't a dumb question at all.
> You're right in saying that the difference isn't obvious.
>
> Let me try and explain.
>
> First of all, all Macintosh text editors and word processors
> (i.e., BBEdit and Microsoft Word) can open 'TEXT' files, while
> only Style (and XTND-enabled programs) can open Style files.
>
> "Text" is standard.  "Style" is proprietary.
>
> On the other hand, the Style format guarantees that all
> attributes associated with a document (character and
> formatting attributes, document background color, page
> setup settings, etc.) are preserved.  This may not always
> be true for other formats, although I try my best to
> ensure round-trip fidelity for all supported formats
> (Style, text, Unicode text and RTF).
>
> A deeper difference between "Text" and "Style" has to
> do with "forks".
>
> Each and every file on a Macintosh volume can actually
> be a *pair* of "twin" files, technically known as the data
> fork and the resource fork of the file.  Both forks always
> travel together and can't be separated when the file is
> moved, copied or renamed by the Finder.  The illusion of
> one-ness is so perfect that most users don't know (and
> don't *need* to know) there are actually two underlying
> forks.  However, this illusion may go away when you
> transfer a Macintosh file to another operating system,
> such as Windows or Unix, that doesn't have the concept
> of "forks".  When you do this, in most cases, only the
> data fork is transferred, while the resource fork is
> lost.
>
> Well, it turns out that 'TEXT' files store the "raw"
> characters in the data fork, and all formatting attributes
> in the resource fork.  You can see this for yourself if
> you have a program like ResEdit.  If you edit a TEXT file
> with a program that doesn't understand styles, like BBEdit,
> the text and the associated styles will go out of sync.
> If you upload a TEXT file to a Unix machine (e.g., a web
> server) via ftp, chances are you'll lose all formatting
> attributes.
>
> On the other hand, the "Style" format doesn't use the
> resource fork, so it can safely be moved to non-Macintosh
> disks.  Incidentally, Mac OS X will allow you to use volumes
> in formats that don't support resource forks, like UFS
> (Unix File System).  As a consequence, Apple is phasing
> out resource forks in OS X, so a data fork-only format
> like the "Style" format (or RTF) is probably better suited
> to OS X than the styled TEXT format.
>
>
>                                     -- marco
>
>
>
> --
> The right of free speech is indivisible.
> When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

I thought I read somewhere that the indexing API that Sherlock relies on allowed
applications to optionally append/update the index at the time a file is saved. 
If
true, this might be an excellent feature for Style.

If every application did this, then the Sherlock index would always be
up-to-date,
and there would no longer be a need to schedule or manually update the index.
What do you think?

My monospaced font must be too small or something.  I'm going to see what
happens if I don't select the "wrap words" checkbox for posting here.  If that
doesn't work, I'll have to wrap my lines myself.  The quick brown fox jumps over
the lazy dogs.

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:50:22 -0000,
drioh@... (drioh@...) wrote:

>I thought I read somewhere that the indexing API that
>Sherlock relies on allowed applications to optionally
>append/update the index at the time a file is saved.

Correct.  This API was introduced in Mac OS 9.0.

>If true, this might be an excellent feature for Style.

Agreed.

>If every application did this, then the Sherlock index
>would always be up-to-date, and there would no longer be
>a need to schedule or manually update the index.
>What do you think?

I think this is an excellent idea.

It looks like incorporating this in a future version of
Style will be easy enough.  It ought to be an optional
feature, though, as according to my tests, indexing
(even a single item) can dramatically increase save
times, from a fraction of a second to several seconds.

Also, starting with version 1.8, Style documents store
text in Unicode format internally, and as such, they're
not directly indexable by Sherlock (which assumes good
old 8-bit text).  Fortunately, I've written a 'text
extractor' (a Sherlock plug-in) for Style that solves
this problem.  I will make it part of the standard
Style 1.9 distribution.  In the meantime, it's available
here:

   <http://www.merzwaren.com/mte/>


                                    -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:33:54 -0000,
drioh@... (drioh@...) wrote:

>However, my question was more along the lines of "what
>features are lost when saving to Text format?"  I keep
>expecting a dialog box to pop up saying something like,
>"If you save in Text format, you will lose some formatting
>features in this document."

If memory serves, the only formatting features that currently
*aren't* preserved when you save as Text are:

   1. The document background color.
   2. The 'Smart Quotes' setting.

>Things like embedded pictures survive through a Word save

This may happen if you're lucky, but don't rely on it.
You may end up with pictures in the wrong places.

>(although Word doesn't display them).

The best way to exchange formatted text (including embedded
pictures) between Style and Word is to use the RTF format.
RTF is the lingua franca of word processors.

>Do you save ALL the excess "baggage" in the resource fork?

Yes.  If you strip the resource fork, only the 'raw' text
survives.

>IOW, if I only use Style, then does Style format = Text format?

Basically, yes.


                                 -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

StyleUsers:

About a week-and-a-half ago Marco asked us to enter in a poll:

At 11:08 AM +0000 2001-03-19, StyleUsers@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Do you plan on adopting Mac OS X 1.0 on your main Macintosh?
>
>   o Yes, as soon as I get my copy.
>   o Yes, within a few weeks.
>   o Possibly (depends on application vendor adoption).
>   o No, I'm waiting for the 1.1 (summer) release.
>   o No, my current hardware isn't supported by Mac OS X.
>
>To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StyleUsers/polls

Vote early and vote often!

I have been following with great relish the reports of Mac OS X's
release. I will probably run out and get my copy this weekend. Though
many still miss some Mac OS 9 features (tabbed folders, the
application menu, DVD playback etc.), by and large people *LOVE* it
for its stability and new features. And, it is assumed that
eventually Apple will either return the missing features or come up
with some better replacements.

Many developers (especially well-represented are shareware
developers) have jumped on the bandwagon with updates of their
applications. I assume that the early-bird developers will get the
lion's share of early adopter shareware fees, too (hear that, Marco?
;-) ). Heck, since no full-fledged word processors are yet available,
Style would be a great application to have OS X-native, if only
because it can read and write to RTF formatted files.

So? What is it, Marco? Do you plan to update Style to Mac OS
X/Carbon? Create a new editor in Cocoa with some of Style's cool
features? Surprise us with something brand-new?

Best wishes,
Clint
(I'm not an early adopter -- I waited until the second weekend. :-) )

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

Clinton MacDonald wrote:
..
>So? What is it, Marco? Do you plan to update Style to Mac OS
>X/Carbon? Create a new editor in Cocoa with some of Style's cool
>features? Surprise us with something brand-new?

I suppose the path is pretty much laid in the WASTE-project. WASTE is
not Cocoa. And hence Style will not be either.

Leif

Leif:

At 2:12 AM +0200 2001-03-31, leif h silli wrote:
>Clinton MacDonald wrote:
>  >So? What is it, Marco? Do you plan to update Style to Mac OS
>  >X/Carbon?
>
>I suppose the path is pretty much laid in the WASTE-project. WASTE is
>not Cocoa. And hence Style will not be either.

I see what you mean by this. However, Marco might be interested in
porting WASTE to Carbon (or Cocoa), or using some of the built-in
APIs to rebuild a Style-like application. I cannot imagine that he
posted the online poll unless he was at least entertaining the idea
of porting Style.

Also, since several other applications use WASTE as their text
engine, I can imagine that Marco might feel some pressure from those
developers.

These are just my thoughts (I am no programmer, so I cannot imagine
the complexities that might be involved). I just don't want to have
to switch over to, say, Tex-Edit (which is in beta for OS X -- in
fact, Tex-Edit was the impetus that started me to think along these
lines).

Best wishes,
Clint
(who wants to see the Eudora/MS Word-type on-the-fly underline
spell-checking in Style)

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:36:48 -0600,
Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:

>So? What is it, Marco? Do you plan to update Style to Mac OS
>X/Carbon?

You bet.

Actually Style has been 99% Carbon-ready since version 1.7,
and I've been running an OS X native version of Style on
the Public Beta for some time.

So why don't we have an OS X version of Style ready yet?

Here are some reasons:

1. OS X Public Beta had a lot of bugs in the Carbon APIs.
    It was easier for me to wait for Apple to fix them,
    rather than trying to work around them.  Now that OS X
    10.0 is out, many bugs (but not all) have been fixed,
    and I can start working around the remaining ones.  :)

2. Carbonization is a long journey, and when you're through
    it, you realize it's just the bare minimum to make your
    app run natively on X.  To make it a true first-class
    citizen of X, well integrated with the rest of the system,
    there's still a long way to go.

>Create a new editor in Cocoa with some of Style's cool
>features?

As Leif said, Style is based on WASTE, which in turns sits
on top of Carbon APIs.  If I were to write a new editor in
Cocoa, it simply wouldn't be Style any more.

>Surprise us with something brand-new?

As much as I'd love to spend time adding more cool features
to Style, the migration to OS X is currently my top priority,
and it's been absorbing far more time than initially planned.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:56:31 -0600,
Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) went on:

>I see what you mean by this. However, Marco might be interested in
>porting WASTE to Carbon (or Cocoa), or using some of the built-in
>APIs to rebuild a Style-like application.

Unlike Style, WASTE is Carbon-ready and has been since
about mid-2000.

>Also, since several other applications use WASTE as their text
>engine, I can imagine that Marco might feel some pressure from those
>developers.

That's why WASTE had to be Carbon-ready well before Style,
in time to be included with CodeWarrior Pro 6 (a popular
development environment for mac programmers).

>These are just my thoughts (I am no programmer, so I cannot imagine
>the complexities that might be involved). I just don't want to have
>to switch over to, say, Tex-Edit (which is in beta for OS X -- in
>fact, Tex-Edit was the impetus that started me to think along these
>lines).

BTW, Tex-Edit Plus uses the same WASTE 2.0 codebase that
powers Style.


                                  -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

Marco:

At 12:17 PM +0200 2001-03-31, Marco Piovanelli wrote:
>  > So? What is it, Marco? Do you plan to update Style to Mac OS
>>  X/Carbon?
>
>You bet.

Yipee! (As we say here in Texas).

>As much as I'd love to spend time adding more cool features
>to Style, the migration to OS X is currently my top priority,
>and it's been absorbing far more time than initially planned.

That's all we could reasonably ask of you. (Except maybe the
underline spell-checking. :-) )

>BTW, Tex-Edit Plus uses the same WASTE 2.0 codebase that
>powers Style.

Well, the authors of Tex-Edit have shown remarkable good taste. ;-)

Best wishes,
Clint
(who likes the support for superscripts and subscripts in Style 1.9 beta 1)

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

Hi folks.

I've just posted an early beta of Style for Mac OS X
to my web site:

   <http://www.merzwaren.com/bin/style-19b2.tar.gz>

It has rough edges and several known bugs, so it's
definitely not ready for prime time, but I thought
I'd share it anyway for the brave souls out there
who are already running Mac OS X.  ;-)


                                -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

Marco and Friends:

At 3:51 PM +0200 2001-04-09, Marco Piovanelli wrote:
>I've just posted an early beta of Style for Mac OS X
>to my web site:
>
>   <http://www.merzwaren.com/bin/style-19b2.tar.gz>

I downloaded it recently (even though I do not yet have Mac OS X
installed on any of my computers. It downloads as what appears to be
a single untyped file named "Style.app." However, if I control-click
on the icon (in Mac OS 9.1), I am given the option to Show Package
Contents. Inside the package are a number of folders, frameworks, and
files that underlie Mac OS X applications -- very cool! (And, even
cooler, while I have the hidden package folder open, the Style.app
icon turns into a folder icon with a little package superimposed on
it. This reverts to the unstyled icon when I close the folder.)

When I finally install Mac OS X, one of the first applications I will
fire up will be Style!

Marco: Since this is a fairly big change for Style, essentially
forking it into two distinct applications, even if they share a
codebase, should you consider changing the version number to "2.0"?

>It has rough edges and several known bugs, so it's
>definitely not ready for prime time, but I thought
>I'd share it anyway for the brave souls out there
>who are already running Mac OS X.  ;-)

Also, in bringing Style up to speed for Mac OS X, I implore you to
read and heed discussions on Macintouch and elsewhere titled "Re:
recommended file extension in OS X."

<http://www.macintouch.com/mosxreaderreports13.html>

It seems that Apple is moving to abandon creator and file type
resources in favor of three letter extensions. As I (and most of the
correspondents on Macintouch) feel this is a giant step backwards
toward DOS. Please, Marco, Fight the Future on this issue, and keep
Style's creator and file types (currently "TEd¸" and "St˙l,"
respectively)!

Best wishes,
Clint

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:27:36 -0500,
Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:

>Marco: Since this is a fairly big change for Style, essentially
>forking it into two distinct applications, even if they share a
>codebase, should you consider changing the version number to "2.0"?

You mean for the OS X version only, or for both versions (8/9 and X)?

>Also, in bringing Style up to speed for Mac OS X, I implore you to
>read and heed discussions on Macintouch and elsewhere titled "Re:
>recommended file extension in OS X."
>
><http://www.macintouch.com/mosxreaderreports13.html>
>
>It seems that Apple is moving to abandon creator and file type
>resources in favor of three letter extensions. As I (and most of the
>correspondents on Macintouch) feel this is a giant step backwards
>toward DOS.

Yeah, I see this issue coming up quite frequently on OS X
forums, often firing up heated debates.  Personally, though
I can see the technical reasons that make creator/file types
impractical in some situations, I hate to see this and many
other peculiar aspects of the Macintosh experience being
mindlessly flushed down the toilet.  File types (and especially
file *creators*) are part of what makes a mac a mac.

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that what is
causing them to be phased out (along with resource forks)
is at least *partly* due to a "Not Invented At Next" syndrome.

>Please, Marco, Fight the Future on this issue, and keep
>Style's creator and file types (currently "TEd¸" and "St˙l,"
>respectively)!

The principle I'll try to follow here is "Be conservative
in what you produce, but be liberal in what you accept".

Style will always create files with the correct creator
and file types, at least on volume formats that support
this concept natively (*), but I'm planning to have it
recognize Style documents even if they happen to have
the wrong creator or type.  This is quite easy to do
because Style documents have a so-called 'magic number'
in their headers.

(*) While the volume formats traditionally used on macs
     (HFS and later, HFS+) have built-in support for file
     types, Mac OS X can work with different volume formats,
     such as UFS (Unix File System), that have no concept
     of file types or resource forks.


                                       -- marco



--
If you don't believe in free speech for your enemies,
you don't believe in free speech at all.

Marco:

At 12:01 PM +0200 2001-04-12, Marco Piovanelli wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 11:27:36 -0500,
>Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:
>  >should you consider changing the version number to "2.0"?
>
>You mean for the OS X version only, or for both versions (8/9 and X)?

I guess that depends. Do you intend to have two separate downloads
(one for OS 8/9, another for OS X), or will you have a true carbon
application that (I think) can be run identically on both platforms
(with the Carbon Extension for OS 8/9)?

If you keep the apps separate (as you seem to have them now), then
you might consider calling them "Style 2.0" and "Style for X 2.0," or
something catchier ("StyleX"? "Stylin'"? :-) ). Of course, you are
the ultimate judge.

>  >It seems that Apple is moving to abandon creator and file type
>  >resources in favor of three letter extensions.
>[...]
>
>[...] I hate to see this and many other peculiar aspects of the
>Macintosh experience being mindlessly flushed down the toilet.
>File types (and especially file *creators*) are part of what makes
>a mac a mac.

Yes! I am glad to hear that.

>(*) While the volume formats traditionally used on macs
>(HFS and later, HFS+) have built-in support for file types,
>Mac OS X can work with different volume formats, such as
>UFS (Unix File System), that have no concept of file types
>or resource forks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the concept of
"packages" on OS X allowed meta information to be bundled with files
in a way that is effectively equivalent to resource forks, but is
compatible with other file systems. However, a more elegant solution
might be the "magic number" in the header that you propose for Style.
If all files stored meta information (like type and creator -- only
eight bytes) in the first few bytes of the header, then the Mac OS
could be trained to look for them there. On the other hand, I don't
know what I am talking about, so I could easily be wrong. :-)

Keep up the good work!

Clint
(who expects OS X to arrive tomorrow via FedEx -- another weekend shot!)

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:01:59 -0500,
Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:

>I guess that depends. Do you intend to have two separate downloads
>(one for OS 8/9, another for OS X), or will you have a true carbon
>application that (I think) can be run identically on both platforms
>(with the Carbon Extension for OS 8/9)?

My current plan is to have two separate downloads for 8/9 and X.

I know my life would be easier with a single Carbon executable
that runs on both platforms, like many other developers are doing,
but IMHO this approach leads to sub-optimal performance on both
platforms.  I find that carbon applications run slower, and
take longer to launch than non-carbon apps on 8/9.  Conversely,
you get the best performance on X with what are technically known
as "Mach-O bundled applications" (and that's what I'd like to
eventually deliver on X), but such apps cannot run on 8/9.

>Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the concept of
>"packages" on OS X allowed meta information to be bundled with files
>in a way that is effectively equivalent to resource forks, but is
>compatible with other file systems.

That's correct.  However, while applications are generally
packaged as bundles on X, most documents are not.  Most
documents (HTML, PDF, Style files) are stored as single files,
and can easily lose their HFS+ meta-data when copied to a non-Mac
volume format like UFS, although the Mac OS X Finder will try
to preserve meta-data on such volumes by creating an invisible
"dot-underscore" file.

>If all files stored meta information (like type and creator -- only
>eight bytes) in the first few bytes of the header, then the Mac OS
>could be trained to look for them there.

Mac OS X has a "file" command, derived from its Unix heritage
and thus only available from the command line, that will inspect
any file looking for "magic numbers" (usually in the first few
bytes of the file) and report to the user a description of the
file contents, regardless of types, creators or file name extensions.


                                   -- marco



--
If you don't believe in free speech for your enemies,
you don't believe in free speech at all.

Marco:

As promised, I installed Mac OS X on my iMac at home, then had a look
at the Style 1.9b2 public beta. I must say, I'm impressed. It works
just like Style in OS 9, but it's different somehow, too. Overall, I
am quite pleased. There are some minor problems, but I am not
convinced that the problems aren't global to OS X, rather than
particular to Style.

For instance, I could not help but notice that the Scripts menu is
missing. I hope it returns at some point in the future. However,
Style still responds to AppleScript input. The following simple
AppleScript returned the correct answer in OS X:

-- ---(Start script)------
property testName : ""
tell application "Style"
     set testName to name of window 1
end tell -- Style
display dialog "The window name is " & testName
-- ---(End script)------

Noting that I have several interfering personal issues with Mac OS X,
I have some things to say about Style. In no particular order:

[] One possible problem is that when I click on the Style icon in the
Dock, it always creates a new Untitled window, whether there is a
window open or not. This is probably not what you had in mind.

[] Just now, as I was testing Style, I tried to switch to it using
the command-tab shortcut, and Style unexpectedly quit. But, the magic
of Mac OS X is that it doesn't matter! I can start it up again and
pick up where I left off. Way cool!

[] Most applications have have a "Hide [Application name]" item
(shortcut command-H) in their application menus, as does Style. A few
applications have added a "Hide others" item with a valuable shortcut
like shift-command-H. This is a GOOD IDEA.

[] Several applications (especially the Finder) get carried away with
window transparency. Style avoids this trap, nicely, using opaque
windows.

[] I have been unable to get Style to open several ReadMes (with
".RTF" extensions) for other applications, neither from the Open
dialog, nor by dragging the icon. Is there some incompatibility?

[] Similarly, the Style 1.9b2 ReadMe opens with TextEdit or Microsoft
Word, not Style, when I double click the icon.

[] Speaking of icons.... Do you have any artist buddies who might
want to draw a Mac OS X-style icon?

[] Inline spellchecking -- 'nuff said? :-) I don't know how hard it
is for Carbon apps to subscribe to services like system-wide
spellchecking, but if you can do it, it would be a big hit.

I will play with the Style beta for a few more days. Since I am still
experimenting with Mac OS X, *everything* is new and different, and
*most* applications are still in beta. However, protected memory is
the bee's knees, since you can start right up again. Some new things
I like (protected memory, shared system services), others, I don't
like (a hidden Dock is *SLOW* to reappear, anti-aliased fonts suck,
the Trash *MOVES* when you try to throw something away -- that kind
of behavior is unforgivable).

Until later,
Clint

--
     Dr. Clinton C. MacDonald | <mailto:cbbccm2@...>
     <http://www.grad.ttuhsc.edu/Grad/macdonald/>

The following StyleUsers poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Do you plan on adopting Mac OS X 1.0 on your main Macintosh?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Yes, as soon as I get my copy., 3 votes, 42.86%
- Yes, within a few weeks., 3 votes, 42.86%
- Possibly (depends on application vendor adoption)., 1 votes, 14.29%
- No, I'm waiting for the 1.1 (summer) release., 0 votes, 0.00%
- No, my current hardware isn't supported by Mac OS X., 0 votes, 0.00%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StyleUsers

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:21:48 -0500,
Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:

>For instance, I could not help but notice that the
>Scripts menu is missing.

It'll be back when Style 1.9 goes final, or earlier.

But you can easily recreate it yourself by creating
a folder named "Style Scripts" at the same level as
the Style.app bundle and populating it.

>[] One possible problem is that when I click on the Style icon in the
>Dock, it always creates a new Untitled window, whether there is a
>window open or not. This is probably not what you had in mind.

This is fixed in the forthcoming beta.

>[] Just now, as I was testing Style, I tried to switch to it using
>the command-tab shortcut, and Style unexpectedly quit.

So far, I haven't been able to reproduce this.

>[] Most applications have have a "Hide [Application name]" item
>(shortcut command-H) in their application menus, as does Style. A few
>applications have added a "Hide others" item with a valuable shortcut
>like shift-command-H. This is a GOOD IDEA.

I've been looking for apps that have shift-command-H for
Hide Others, but couldn't find any.  What applications
were you referring to?  I'm not sure I can add my own
modifiers to Hide Others, since most menu items in the
application menu are added and handled automatically by
the system.

>[] I have been unable to get Style to open several ReadMes (with
>".RTF" extensions) for other applications, neither from the Open
>dialog, nor by dragging the icon. Is there some incompatibility?

In Style 1.9b2, RTF files won't show up in the Open dialog
unless they have the correct file type ("RTF ").  The next
beta will address this issue by filtering files in the Open
dialog based on both the file type *and* the file name extension.

Anyway, regardless of what files are shown in the open dialog,
Style should be able to *open* all RTF files just fine.

>[] Similarly, the Style 1.9b2 ReadMe opens with TextEdit or Microsoft
>Word, not Style, when I double click the icon.

Known problem.  Style for Mac OS X comes as a TAR archive.
TAR archives don't preserve creators or file types.  As a result,
the system has no way to know that ReadMe.rtf is supposed to be
opened in Style, and uses the default application for the .rtf
extension, i.e., TextEdit.

>[] Speaking of icons.... Do you have any artist buddies who might
>want to draw a Mac OS X-style icon?

Unfortunately, no.  Do you know any?  ;-)

>[] Inline spellchecking -- 'nuff said? :-) I don't know how hard it
>is for Carbon apps to subscribe to services like system-wide
>spellchecking, but if you can do it, it would be a big hit.

It looks like right now there's no Apple-sanctioned way to
access Cocoa services (like the spell checker used by TextEdit)
in Carbon apps like Style, possibly because Apple has more
urgent issues to address. :)  But I guess that will come, sooner
or later.


                                       -- marco



--
The right of free speech is indivisible.
When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.

On Friday, April 20, 2001, at 05:03 , Marco Piovanelli wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 22:21:48 -0500,
>> Clinton MacDonald (cbbccm2@...) wrote:

[snipped]

>>  One possible problem is that when I click on the Style icon in the
>> Dock, it always creates a new Untitled window, whether there is a
>> window open or not. This is probably not what you had in mind.
>
> This is fixed in the forthcoming beta.

I had always thought that this was caused by the OS doing something
differently. Perhaps sending a re-open event to the app when it was
selected from the dock. Wow, look who is wrong! I am glad this behavior
can be altered.

[snipped]

>> Speaking of icons.... Do you have any artist buddies who might
>> want to draw a Mac OS X-style icon?
>
> Unfortunately, no.  Do you know any?  ;-)

Redraw the existing style icon at larger sizes with anti-aliasing of the
colours? My .02

>> Inline spellchecking -- 'nuff said? :-) I don't know how hard it
>> is for Carbon apps to subscribe to services like system-wide
>> spellchecking, but if you can do it, it would be a big hit.
>
> It looks like right now there's no Apple-sanctioned way to
> access Cocoa services (like the spell checker used by TextEdit)
> in Carbon apps like Style, possibly because Apple has more
> urgent issues to address. :)  But I guess that will come, sooner
> or later.
>

I guess this leaves my hope of a shorter font menu on hold for a bit.
You are also suggesting "features" like the font panel are also
inaccessible from Carbon at the current moment? I had something for this
with 9.x, oh happy days with that!

If Apple would put a  glossary on that it would really kick butt. I have
not been able to stop typing tt for the word that since i converted to
X. Dang, I never realised TypeIt4Me was that great a product!

>
>                                       -- marco
> --
> The right of free speech is indivisible.
> When one of us is denied this right, all of us are denied.
Right On!

********************************************
David <dittmv@...>
"In a past life someone made the mistake of thinking I was an ethernet
hub."