I think if you live close to a radar installation you would not need a
microwave.  I suspect a DC or electrolytic type capacitor would be needed.
These capacitors will absorbe tremenodous amounts of current so only a very
tiny one would be necessary.  There might also be some benifit into
createing an electromagnetic field around a wire. Particles passing through
the field might be encouraged to drop more energy into the field.
          I don't know if you have ever wound a bifilar coil, but they have
some interesting porperties, more improtatnly they are flat and can be made
very large with the same amount of material it would take to wind a much
smaller cylinder shaped coil.
       If you want to wind one it can be done with twisted fiber speaker
wire (use one gold and one silver wire so you can distingiush between the
two. (Magnetic wire is better)  The only thing else you need is a computer
CD coaster and some glue. Put a bolt through the center along with about 3
inches of each wire. Place the other CD on top and tighten the nut until it
is about the thickness of the wire between the CD,s. Wind both wires
togather so that concentric circules are formed. Dab with glue as you wind.
You should have two CD's  with both color wires sticking out from the
center and both gold and silver wires on the outside edge.  Leave enough
wire sticking out so you  can connect the gold outside wire to the silver
inside wire.
        Attachin a small battery to the remaining wires will produce an
electromagnet, as is shown by a compass. The battery becomes very warm when
you do this. Tesla claimed the capacitance of the bifilar coil to increase
geometrically with size.
    I have been wanting to try this with something the size of an old album
and much smaller wire.
       I really don't know as much about the antenna as you do. It is a
field of study you seem to know more about than I so I would welcome your
opinion. Post the diagram as a gif.
Paul

Mark Hales wrote:

> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mark=20Hales?= <markhales_28@...>
>
> Paul.
> Thanks for the input. Yes, I've seen many diagrams of
> Tesla's work. In fact, the idea of the high metal
> plate, capacitor, load and controller + earth does
> look very much like the setup I described below. I was
> thinking, When Tesla was doing his experiments, man
> made electricity in the air was non existant.
> Nowadays, with radio, tv 50 / 60 Hz transmission lines
> etc, there is a LOT of energy.
> Your thoughts please....What if the long wire antenna
> / metal plate is connected to a diode and then
> connected to the flash gun +ve terminal? Could the rf
> energy be rectified to dc and fed to the flashgun
> capacitor?
> What if multiple long wires were used for extra
> capacity.
> How about multiple flashgun units wired in parallel
> and the capacitors discharged in parallel or series,
> aka Marx Generator?
> Just thoughts, but having only been reading these
> posts for a few weeks, I've now got the bug.
> I would imagine, if it's that easy, it should've been
> done by now...Maybe not...I suppose I could get myself
> in gear and try... I've got 3 or 4 old flash guns and
> used disposible cameras...
> Would still welcome input...My instinct is there's
> probably still too little energy in the air, or
> capacitor charging will be painfully slow, especially
> as the lenght of the antenna will determine the rx
> frequency...
> On a side note, I have an old book by Sinclair on
> building transistor radios (The days of Mullard OC71s
> etc) and it shows a crystal set with no diode, but a
> small value electrolytic and a transistor. The idea is
> the capacitor charges up by rf and this powers the
> transistor... I'll sort out the diagram and post it.
> Best wishes...Mark.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:13:28 -0600
From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
References: <4.2.0.58.20000110004004.00b58650@...>
<4.2.0.58.20000111003651.00b6e890@...>
<387AA25A.C52539C7@...> <387B0621.7814227F@...>
<387E6254.CEAE9D9D@...> <387F6F5F.4FA2A356@...>

From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>



Jim Farrer wrote:

> From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
>
> My comments follow an arrow, which you can search for.  ===>>
> Jim Farrer
>
> Paul Eitson wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >   Hydrogen can carry the most electric charge in the least mass of
>> all
>> >   the elements.
>>  Might it be possible to push
>> a charged H2 molecule through glass?
>
> ===>> Perhaps if you found (or created) the 'right' kind of glass.
> Reasoning:  circa 1938, my father's neon sign shop had some rare,
> expensive, nearly unworkable glass, which was FLUORESCENT (way before
> GE fluorescent lamps, or even neon flourescent powders).
> The glass had the shortcoming of not being air tight.  So it was
> sandwiched vetween two layers of lime (lead?) glass.  A three layer
> tube.  But what purpose woud be served to allow the hydrogen ions to
> escape the tube?  What would you do with them?

( I must warn you, the following paragraph is speculation.)
Electron flow lasers point to the fact that charged particles can be
manipulated with electromagnets.  They can even be bounced back and
forth using magnetic fields as trampolines. If these particles could be
confined to a tube and oscillated with either permanent or
electromagnets, similar to the way a laser oscillates light, it might be
possible to push one of the highly charged rapidly moving particles
through the glass end of an oscillation chamber. If indeed the gas
filled tube were a laser (or had one directed through it ) some of the
charged H particles might be carried along with the beam, as we know a
laser exerts force. If so the effectiveness of the laser in cutting
materials might be enhanced. If a cup of Fred Bach's muons were thrown
into the batter, these particles would be of much greater mass. It might
even be possible to push the particle to an even higher acceleration
with electromagnetic pulses. Say doesn't the Tesla coil produce
electromagnetic pulses?

>
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >   I think I agree with you on the ozone.  Ozone is formed by the
>> >   ionization of normal oxygen (O2) by ultraviolet radiation.  So
>
> ===>>  Really nitpicking here.  But it's my understanding that the
> oxygen mus be excited *much* more than just to ionize it.  It must be
> excited enough to break the molecule in half.  The resulting two free
> oxygen atoms are exceedingly active, and will even burn an oxygen
> molecule, producing the 'ash' O3.  I don't believe the O1 atoms even
> need to be ionized for this to happen.

My assumption is that this might happen in H2 molecules which form 2 H
atoms due to the high charge expanding there energy shells. They remain
in this state until they can release there charge. (Just a guess)

>
>
>> I wonder if you could make a capacitor with ozone?
>
> ====>> What would one use for plates?  Aluminum would be gobbled up
> immediately by the super active ozone.  Gold, maybe?  An even bigger
> problem is how would one keep the ozone from decaying to O2 long
> enough to make measurements.

Just an off the wall speculation about ozone. An earlier though was that
it might be possible to use H, in place of the electrolyte in an
electrolytic capacitor.  I am curious electrolytic capacitors give off
gases. In a beer bottle type capacitor where glass is the dielectric, is
much gas produced? If so what type since the - charge should be outside
the glass.
Paul


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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning Storage <an "official" word>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:50:34 -0600
From: Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>
Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
Organization: Stoneridge Engineering
To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
References: <4.2.0.58.20000112011733.00b76bb0@...>
<4.2.0.58.20000115042030.00b5a100@...>

From: Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>

Jet Black wrote:
>
> From: Jet Black <blackj@...>
>
> At 05:01 PM 11/01/00 , you wrote:
> >From: Bert Hickman <bert.hickman@...>
> >
> >Jet,
> >
> >Dr. Martin Uman is an aknowledged physicist and lighting researcher.
> >He's also the author of four books on the subject of lightning and
> >plasma physics, one popular, and the others quite technical. BTW, they
> >are all good... I have all four (plus about a dozen more by other
> >lightning researchers. Personally, I wouldn't read much into his use of
> >all caps - if you read the same response as though it were in upper and
> >lower case, he succinctly provided a response to your question. I
> >suspect he's likely a rather busy man, so he referred you to his book.
>
> Boy am I out gunned here , 4 good books and the backing of Mr Hickman ,
> time to get a library card and/or use my street knowledge to pass the books
> through the "security" door traps , sure I'll bring them back in the same
> condition they left the library , but I refuse to pay fines for being a day
> late to people who can't  put me in jail or sieze my assets.
>

I found another _FREE_ on-line book that you may find interesting. It's
called the "Atmospheric Electrostatics" by Lars Wahlin. You can download
the entire 120pp book in PDF format by going to the Colutron Research
Corp. site at:
  http://www.colutron.com/products/cosmos.html

While most "mainstream" meteorologists and lightning researchers tend to
follow the thunderstorm-charging mechanism as the source of the positive
charge of the ionosphere, Dr. Wahlin presents an alternative mechanism -
electrochemical charging, combined with convection currents!

Interestingly, Wahlin also looks at the amount of energy available by
harnessing lightning bolts. In Chapter 4, he concludes that the combined
electrical energy available from ALL lightning bolts around the world
would be sufficient, on average, to supply the needs of New York City
(about 20,000 megawatts). The book's not too technical, and a very
interesting read!

<SNIP>
> Below is a reprint without the permission of the long dead author , if he
> disapproves may he haunt me with all the other demons & spirits that
> surround me , some paraphrasing and comments are included , so it isn't
> blatent copyright violation.
>
> "The Peasant Revolt at Prenditz"  <circa 1750 my best guess>
>
> "This first lightning conductor was a strange looking object.A short iron
> bar , 1 & 1/2 inches in diameter , was fastened to the top of a wooden pole
> 130 feet high; near the top of the pole were revolving iron arms , the only
> purpose of which was to keep birds away.Cross pieces extended from the iron
> bar to support 3 iron boxes , each a foot long , filled with iron filings
> and fitted with wooden lids; the lids had a number of holes in them ,
> through which little brass spikes were thrust; the ends of these rested
> among the iron filings and were intended to "suck down" the electricity
> from the clouds.An iron chain connected the iron bar at the top of the pole
> with the earth."
>
<SNIP>

Thanks for the very interesting information about Father Diwisch and
what certainly looks to be the first lightning rod! This was around the
same time that Ben Franklin was having his paper "The Sameness of
Lightning and Electricity" read before the Royal Society in England - to
the laughter of the experts in electricity of the time... :^)

Best regards,

-- Bert --



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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:47:49 -0700
From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>
Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
Organization: TRIUMF, University of British Columbia
To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
References: <4.2.0.58.20000110004004.00b58650@...>
<4.2.0.58.20000111003651.00b6e890@...>
<387AA25A.C52539C7@...> <387B0621.7814227F@...>
<387E6254.CEAE9D9D@...>

From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>

Paul Eitson wrote:

  [snip]


>    If H2 was subjected to something like the St. Elmo's fire device inside a
partially
> evacuated glass tube:Do you think it is possible to store electricity using H2
as a
> charged gas?

     Yes.

>     I have read that most substances are permeable to H2 : Might it be
possible to push
> a charged H2 molecule through glass?

     Yes.  Hydrogen has a slow permeability through glass.
     We're only talking the rate here, which is very slow.


> >
> >   I think I agree with you on the ozone.  Ozone is formed by the
> >   ionization of normal oxygen (O2) by ultraviolet radiation.  So here
> >   is my speculation:
> >
> >     The electrons go off somewhere
>
> Could this be part of what is picked up by high power lines,that we attribute
to
> sunspot activity?

    Partly.  The disturbances in the earth's magnetic field, caused by
    the loading of it with charged particles from the solar wind, is
    the cause of the pickup in the powerlines and telegraph lines.

>
> > and the remaining ions
> >     form ozone (O3), and some of the electrons
>
> > recombine with
> >     the ozone to form a neutral O3 which eventually decays
> >     (2 ozone molecules go (eventually) to 3 normal-oxygen molecules).
> >     This process indeed DOES produce positive ions and free
> >     electrons.  And so the ozone would be either positively charged
> >     or neutral.
>
> My guess is that it does have a charge spread out over such a large area that
it is
> practically undetectable. Net accumulation of charge would be on the irregular
> dielectric, air, and would be concentrated in areas where the dielectric is
less.
> (Cloud formations.)

     No disagreement there, except to say that updrafts cause a lot
     of charge separation in the atmosphere.  The earth's magnetic
     field would tend to separate these charges too, sending them off
     on their separate paths.


> Another list I am on (so don't know how reliable the information is) claims
that clouds
> have been measured at various charges from neutral to very charged.  The
comment Bert
> Hickman made about the bottoms being negative and the tops positive would
indicate also
> the clouds were forming mini capacitors, where the distilled water dielectric
(cloud
> material) was being charged from the top, negative charges accumulating on the
bottom
> from ,as Mr. Hickman also pointed out, vertical leakage current


     True.  Meteorologists use a device called a charge mill to
     read the voltage on the clouds.  What we see is the charge
     from the cloud to the ground.  Actually that can be either
     polarity.  But in an *overall* sense, if you average out the
     cloud charge inside itself, and then compare the cloud as a
     whole to the earth, I would expect the cloud to be positive
     as sunlight and wind separate molecules from electrons and
     the earth's magnetic field should sweep the lighter electrons
     away.

     Or, I could be wrong.


>
> >  I can't see any process up there by which it
> >     could be negatively charged.
> >
> >   Just my best guess, I don't know everything.  I believe that on the
> >   ground we can create negatively charged ozone.
>
> I wonder if you could make a capacitor with ozone?


    Yes, if the ozone were neutral.  And if it didn't decay.
    With charged ozone, or any charged gas?  No.  The charged
    molecules would not stay still.


  Fred W. Bach                               | Internet: music@...
  Co-ordinator, Operations Group             | Web:  http://www.triumf.ca/wao98
  TRIUMF (Canada's National MESON Laboratory)| Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6278/6327
  4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS             | FAX:   604-222-1074
  University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3
  "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death."
  These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
  They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:29:54 -0700
From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>
Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
Organization: TRIUMF, University of British Columbia
To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
References: <4.2.0.58.20000110004004.00b58650@...>
<4.2.0.58.20000111003651.00b6e890@...>
<387AA25A.C52539C7@...>

From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>

Paul Eitson wrote:
>
>     The reason I suspect the ozone layer is positively charged is the massive
> amount of radiation it absorbs before it strikes earth. Normally  the energy
would
> be evenly dispersed, but clouds sail along like shoes on a carpet picking up a
> charge as they go. In my reading H2 acts as an energy carrier when the
dielectric
> in a distilled water capacitor breaks down. In this case the H actually glows
and
> moves as a charged particle toward the opposite side of the capacitor.


   Hydrogen can carry the most electric charge in the least mass of all
   the elements.

   I think I agree with you on the ozone.  Ozone is formed by the
   ionization of normal oxygen (O2) by ultraviolet radiation.  So here
   is my speculation:

     The electrons go off somewhere and the remaining ions
     form ozone (O3), and some of the electrons recombine with
     the ozone to form a neutral O3 which eventually decays
     (2 ozone molecules go (eventually) to 3 normal-oxygen molecules).
     This process indeed DOES produce positive ions and free
     electrons.  And so the ozone would be either positively charged
     or neutral.   I can't see any process up there by which it
     could be negatively charged.

   Just my best guess, I don't know everything.  I believe that on the
   ground we can create negatively charged ozone.

  Fred Bach  music@...  Opinions are just my own.

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Negative muons
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:56:23 -0700
From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>
Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
Organization: TRIUMF, University of British Columbia
To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
References: <000401bf5c9a$accb8040$0bccd9d1@andy-scomp>
<387EF97B.3988522D@...> <012f01bf5edb$b297ba00$0100007f@...>

From: "Frederick W. Bach" <music@...>

David Knaack wrote:
>
> From: "David Knaack" <dknaack@...>
>
> >From http://www.triumf.ca/welcome/h-fusion.html:
> "A negative muon can, like an electron, also bind any two hydrogen atoms
> into a molecular ion"
>
> Facinating, can negative muons replace electrons in other elements?  If so,
> can those elements form chemical compounds?  Can electrons and negative
> muons both orbit the same nucleus?


   Yes, but not for long!  The lifetime of the muon is rather short.
   The muon decays.  But as it does, it can give us information
   about energy levels and local magnetic fields in the molecule.
   Sort of like a probe that the Starship Enterprise sends out
   and it radios back information to Mr. Spock at the science station
   on the bridge.  With ordinary elements the outer electrons are the
   ones that primarily participate in chemical reactions.  With a muon
   shot into a heavy element, I'm not sure that the muon would take
   a primary role in the *chemical* bonds.  I think the muon tends to
   tunnel in towards the nucleus.  In hydrogen it takes the place of
   the ONLY electron, so it has to take part in any chemical reactions.


> I ask because it seems that if you could have elements formed with negative
> muons instead of electrons, they might have different properties and form
> different chemical bonds.

   That would be exactly correct!  The energy levels of the different
   orbits are all different!  The muon is a couple hundred times
   heavier than the electron, so the orbits are all different.


  Fred W. Bach                               | Internet: music@...
  Co-ordinator, Operations Group             | Web:  http://www.triumf.ca/wao98
  TRIUMF (Canada's National MESON Laboratory)| Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6278/6327
  4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS             | FAX:   604-222-1074
  University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3
  "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death."
  These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question.
  They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

How would it possible to  produce a negative energy  from plasma?
I working on a story and need some rational explanation . It is a Science
Fiction.
Any ideas? Even   fantastic ones? According to some physicists, a negative
energy can remove time-space barriers. I would appreciate  any help on the
subject.
Anna



----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
To: Turbine List <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 4:47 PM
Subject: [TeslaTurbine] [Fwd: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory]


> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory
> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:13:28 -0600
> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
> To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
> References: <4.2.0.58.20000110004004.00b58650@...>
> <4.2.0.58.20000111003651.00b6e890@...>
> <387AA25A.C52539C7@...> <387B0621.7814227F@...>
> <387E6254.CEAE9D9D@...>
<387F6F5F.4FA2A356@...>
>
> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
>
>
>
> Jim Farrer wrote:
>
> > From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
> >
> > My comments follow an arrow, which you can search for.  ===>>
> > Jim Farrer
> >
> > Paul Eitson wrote:
> >
> >> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >   Hydrogen can carry the most electric charge in the least mass of
> >> all
> >> >   the elements.
> >>  Might it be possible to push
> >> a charged H2 molecule through glass?
> >
> > ===>> Perhaps if you found (or created) the 'right' kind of glass.
> > Reasoning:  circa 1938, my father's neon sign shop had some rare,
> > expensive, nearly unworkable glass, which was FLUORESCENT (way before
> > GE fluorescent lamps, or even neon flourescent powders).
> > The glass had the shortcoming of not being air tight.  So it was
> > sandwiched vetween two layers of lime (lead?) glass.  A three layer
> > tube.  But what purpose woud be served to allow the hydrogen ions to
> > escape the tube?  What would you do with them?
>
> ( I must warn you, the following paragraph is speculation.)
> Electron flow lasers point to the fact that charged particles can be
> manipulated with electromagnets.  They can even be bounced back and
> forth using magnetic fields as trampolines. If these particles could be
> confined to a tube and oscillated with either permanent or
> electromagnets, similar to the way a laser oscillates light, it might be
> possible to push one of the highly charged rapidly moving particles
> through the glass end of an oscillation chamber. If indeed the gas
> filled tube were a laser (or had one directed through it ) some of the
> charged H particles might be carried along with the beam, as we know a
> laser exerts force. If so the effectiveness of the laser in cutting
> materials might be enhanced. If a cup of Fred Bach's muons were thrown
> into the batter, these particles would be of much greater mass. It might
> even be possible to push the particle to an even higher acceleration
> with electromagnetic pulses. Say doesn't the Tesla coil produce
> electromagnetic pulses?
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >   I think I agree with you on the ozone.  Ozone is formed by the
> >> >   ionization of normal oxygen (O2) by ultraviolet radiation.  So
> >
> > ===>>  Really nitpicking here.  But it's my understanding that the
> > oxygen mus be excited *much* more than just to ionize it.  It must be
> > excited enough to break the molecule in half.  The resulting two free
> > oxygen atoms are exceedingly active, and will even burn an oxygen
> > molecule, producing the 'ash' O3.  I don't believe the O1 atoms even
> > need to be ionized for this to happen.
>
> My assumption is that this might happen in H2 molecules which form 2 H
> atoms due to the high charge expanding there energy shells. They remain
> in this state until they can release there charge. (Just a guess)
>
> >
> >
> >> I wonder if you could make a capacitor with ozone?
> >
> > ====>> What would one use for plates?  Aluminum would be gobbled up
> > immediately by the super active ozone.  Gold, maybe?  An even bigger
> > problem is how would one keep the ozone from decaying to O2 long
> > enough to make measurements.
>
> Just an off the wall speculation about ozone. An earlier though was that
> it might be possible to use H, in place of the electrolyte in an
> electrolytic capacitor.  I am curious electrolytic capacitors give off
> gases. In a beer bottle type capacitor where glass is the dielectric, is
> much gas produced? If so what type since the - charge should be outside
> the glass.
> Paul
>
>
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> yours with membership in Library of Science, the leading science book club
> since 1958! Order NOW at
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>
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>

Annna,
      If you noticed a post (forwarded) from Fred Bach, there was a small
statement at the bottom. "I think we can produce negatively charged ozone at
ground level." Coming from Mr. Bach I consider this information to be reliable.
He works with particle accelerators to produce muons.  (Also a recent post)
Another post I read is about a paper concerning magnetism. One scientist now
considers electricity to be caused by 4th dimensional particles trapped between
magnetic poles.
       In order to concentrate a negative charge, it is necessary to use a
capacitor. Positive and negative charges are concentrated on opposite sides of
the dielectric between the plates.  Remove the plates and the charges remain
stuck to the outside of the dielectric. If a vacuum is between the two plates x
rays are produced when the arc occurs between the plates. If positively charged
H2 and negatively charged ozone were used, you would have two charged plasmas
separated by a dielectric.
      Look at the Tesla patents on  disk generators. In a disk generator two
disks are used, one disk produces a negative charge on the outside, one disk
produces a positive charge on the outside. Opposite charges are located on the
inside of each disks. This charge increases geometrically with the size of the
disk and its rotational speed.
     Time is an artificial construct we use to explain movement. Water dripping
into a bucket is thought to occur over time, we know the bucket was once (time
reference) empty but it will soon (time reference) be full. The empty and full
bucket cannot exist in the same place at the same time.The bucket exists as
real matter, and we know it existed as both full and empty.Since we know two
objects cannot exist in the same place, then they both must be present at
different times. The bucket exists as both empty and full, we know that because
we have seen it . We say it is because of time that we cannot see both, but it
is only movement, since now we are forced to consider that the bucket has
actually physically moved several thousand miles between each drip from where
it was. If the bucket was suddenly absolutely still it would, relative to the
earth, be moving at a tremendous speed = to the movement of the earth around
the sun+ the earths rotational speed+the speed at which the sun is spiraling
around the galaxy+ the speed at which the galaxy is moving through the
universe. We are unable to comprehend this movement because we are trapped in a
magnetic field and thus not moving relative to the earth.   Between each drip
the bucket has actually moved several thousand miles due to this movement.
Because we cannot perceive this very real movement , we are calling this
movement something we made up called time. If the bucket were to remain
absolutely still ,to us it would disappear as we continued to move, which
actually we are moving at the tremendous speed mentioned above. So now we
realize the bucket can never occupy the same place twice, as it is in comstant
motion. The bucket actually exists as both empty and full (remember we have
seen the bucket both empty and full) but not in the same place haveing moved
millions of miles. The empty bucket did not cease to exist , it is still here
full of water, the reason we cannot see the empty bucket is that it is now
millions of miles away. But the empty bucket must still exist somewhere, as we
can still see the full bucket. So time then is just a (false) concept to
explain this movement which is very real. Since we cannot perceive this
movement we use something called time to explain how the bucket changed from
empty to full. If the bucket suddenly stopped moving it would disappear as we
continued on our merry way through the galaxy.The bucket would be in exactly
the same spot, but the galaxy would be rushing toward it. Planets and suns
would move through that exact same spot as other planets and suns had moved
though it before. So now to move through what we call time all we have to do is
to remain stationary. To do this we must escape our gravitational  field. Since
energy like electricity is unaffected by gravity all we would have to do is
convert to energy and remain stationary. Positive energy conversion is achieved
by exceeding the speed of light and would result in backward movement in time
according to Einstein. Negative energy conversion would be stationary creating
what we would consider forward movement in time as the galaxy rushed toward us.



Now for the fantastic:
     Some speculation I have seen on flying saucers indicates they are composed
on the outside of rotating flat disks. If these are 40 - 50 feet across the
charge would be tremendous. Reports on flying saucers suggest they go straight
up and then disappear. I might suggest the disks form a + charge on the outside
of the disks. The center of the disk would be shielded from the outside from
the body of the craft .. A huge + charge would form on the outside of the craft
balanced by the huge - charge on the inside.. When the craft entered the ozone
( a highly conductive substance) this + charge would suddenly disappear and the
- charge would try to follow it . This would of course not be possible because
the positive charge is outside the dielectric would be separated from the
negative charge inside by a magnetic field. Prevented from discharging the
negative energy would remain stationary but with no + charge to balance it
would be attracted to any positive energy. Now what if the disk enters the
vacuum of space and disk rotation stops. Since no positive charges are present
the entirely - charged disk could not discharge. It is my somewhat fantastic
idea that the matter in the ship would covered with non-moving negative
energy.  If it is true that energy or electricity is a non moving forth
dimensional particle then these negative particles would be stationary in space
while the positive charge reamined trappped in earths gravitional field and are
rushing away at high speed. These particles would  not move but remain
stationary. Sometime, in what we consider the future, another object will move
through the same point .Think of movement (not time) as the dielectric
separating what we call past and future (which we now know is just moving and
non moving particles) .A solid particle converted to energy  would zip across
the dielectric simply by remaining stationary until it became trapped by a
magnetic field.  This magnetic field would be produced when the earth or some
other magnetic field moved through this spot at which it was stationary.  All
then we would have to do to move through time is to calculate where the earth
will be in a few years, go to that spot convert to negative energy and remain
stationary until such time as the earth passes through that spot some time in
the future, at which time we would convert back to matter and become trapped.
To travel to the past  we calculate where the earth once was, convert to
positive energy by exceeding the speed of light , then reconvert to matter.

"Anna M." wrote:

> From: "Anna M." <pantheon@...>
>
> How would it possible to  produce a negative energy  from plasma?
> I working on a story and need some rational explanation . It is a Science
> Fiction.
> Any ideas? Even   fantastic ones? According to some physicists, a negative
> energy can remove time-space barriers. I would appreciate  any help on the
> subject.
> Anna
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> To: Turbine List <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 4:47 PM
> Subject: [TeslaTurbine] [Fwd: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory]
>
> > From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [usa-tesla] Lightning theory
> > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:13:28 -0600
> > From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> > Reply-To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
> > To: usa-tesla@onelist.com
> > References: <4.2.0.58.20000110004004.00b58650@...>
> > <4.2.0.58.20000111003651.00b6e890@...>
> > <387AA25A.C52539C7@...> <387B0621.7814227F@...>
> > <387E6254.CEAE9D9D@...>
> <387F6F5F.4FA2A356@...>
> >
> > From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Farrer wrote:
> >
> > > From: Jim Farrer <jfarrer@...>
> > >
> > > My comments follow an arrow, which you can search for.  ===>>
> > > Jim Farrer
> > >
> > > Paul Eitson wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >   Hydrogen can carry the most electric charge in the least mass of
> > >> all
> > >> >   the elements.
> > >>  Might it be possible to push
> > >> a charged H2 molecule through glass?
> > >
> > > ===>> Perhaps if you found (or created) the 'right' kind of glass.
> > > Reasoning:  circa 1938, my father's neon sign shop had some rare,
> > > expensive, nearly unworkable glass, which was FLUORESCENT (way before
> > > GE fluorescent lamps, or even neon flourescent powders).
> > > The glass had the shortcoming of not being air tight.  So it was
> > > sandwiched vetween two layers of lime (lead?) glass.  A three layer
> > > tube.  But what purpose woud be served to allow the hydrogen ions to
> > > escape the tube?  What would you do with them?
> >
> > ( I must warn you, the following paragraph is speculation.)
> > Electron flow lasers point to the fact that charged particles can be
> > manipulated with electromagnets.  They can even be bounced back and
> > forth using magnetic fields as trampolines. If these particles could be
> > confined to a tube and oscillated with either permanent or
> > electromagnets, similar to the way a laser oscillates light, it might be
> > possible to push one of the highly charged rapidly moving particles
> > through the glass end of an oscillation chamber. If indeed the gas
> > filled tube were a laser (or had one directed through it ) some of the
> > charged H particles might be carried along with the beam, as we know a
> > laser exerts force. If so the effectiveness of the laser in cutting
> > materials might be enhanced. If a cup of Fred Bach's muons were thrown
> > into the batter, these particles would be of much greater mass. It might
> > even be possible to push the particle to an even higher acceleration
> > with electromagnetic pulses. Say doesn't the Tesla coil produce
> > electromagnetic pulses?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >   I think I agree with you on the ozone.  Ozone is formed by the
> > >> >   ionization of normal oxygen (O2) by ultraviolet radiation.  So
> > >
> > > ===>>  Really nitpicking here.  But it's my understanding that the
> > > oxygen mus be excited *much* more than just to ionize it.  It must be
> > > excited enough to break the molecule in half.  The resulting two free
> > > oxygen atoms are exceedingly active, and will even burn an oxygen
> > > molecule, producing the 'ash' O3.  I don't believe the O1 atoms even
> > > need to be ionized for this to happen.
> >
> > My assumption is that this might happen in H2 molecules which form 2 H
> > atoms due to the high charge expanding there energy shells. They remain
> > in this state until they can release there charge. (Just a guess)
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >> I wonder if you could make a capacitor with ozone?
> > >
> > > ====>> What would one use for plates?  Aluminum would be gobbled up
> > > immediately by the super active ozone.  Gold, maybe?  An even bigger
> > > problem is how would one keep the ozone from decaying to O2 long
> > > enough to make measurements.
> >
> > Just an off the wall speculation about ozone. An earlier though was that
> > it might be possible to use H, in place of the electrolyte in an
> > electrolytic capacitor.  I am curious electrolytic capacitors give off
> > gases. In a beer bottle type capacitor where glass is the dielectric, is
> > much gas produced? If so what type since the - charge should be outside
> > the glass.
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
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"Fred W. Bach" wrote:

> From: "Fred W. Bach" <music@...>
>
> Paul Eitson wrote:
>
>
>
>    Do an Altavista search on Free Electron Lasers.  What you have
>    suggested I believe is the next generation of particle accelerators.
>    I don't know if your method would work (the glass would get
>    tired quickly due to particle damage).  Riding a laser beam the
>    way the electrons ride the travelling wave at the SLC accelerator
>    at the  SLAC (Stanford) Linac could theoretically give megavolts of
>    acceleration in a very short distance because the wavefronts of
>    the 'waves' in the laser beam are so close together and the laser
>    light is coherent (all wavefronts are in unison, not mixed up like
>    they are in ordinary light).

I agree about the dielectric becoming damaged. Suppose the particle
oscillation chamber was open on one end. The positively charge particles
could be prevented from escaping the chamber by a timed electromagnetic pulse
which would repel the particle toward the closed end where a negative charge
existed. As the particle approached the closed end a timed positive pulse
would repel the charged toward the open end where a negative charge now
exists. As it approached the closed end again a timed positive pulse
would be
applied to prevent the particle from approaching.  When the particles have
reached a suitable speed and are proceeding toward the open end a laser is
fired from the closed end through the mass of charged particles. Since the
particles are positively charged and already in motion they would not absorb
much energy as they would offer little resistance to the laser beam
which is
moving the same direction. If this concentrated light source were combined
with the electromagnetic pulse it would seem like it would, as you suggest
above, give megavolts of acceleration in a very short distance.

Hopefully the attached diagram will make my ramblings more clear.

>
>
>  .. Fred Bach  music@...  Opinions are just mine.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Essential Feynman Library for $7.99! (3 books/ 6 audio tapes -$97 value)
> Learn physics from the legenary Richard Feynman, renown for making
> complex ideas easy to understand. Order NOW at Library of Science:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

[This message contained attachments]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: H2
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:30:52 -0600
From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
Reply-To: xyme2@...
To: David Dennard <jclark@...>

David,
    Have been out of commission (car wreck)  but did want to hear more
about your H2 experiments.  We have been discussing manipulation of
charged H2 on the Tesla list.
     Also have been considering a  Tesla turbine design based on a
whirlpool shape. This shape would have an advantage in propulsion
designs in that it would admit large volumes of air.  See attached
diagram.
      I am considering the prospect of using permanent magnets to induce
a current in a Tesla turbine. This disk type generator might even be
able to impart a charge to the working fluid such as H2 . When pure
liquid H2 is exposed to a St. Elmo's fire device it greatly expands in
volume and carries a positive charge. It may be possible to cause a
charged H2 particle to accelerate using electromagnetic induction.
Paul

[This message contained attachments]

I too have been researching H2 as a potential fuel source. Liquid H2 was
also used to power Tesla's mechanical oscillator. There  is a link between
the mechanical oscillator and direct combustion research done by Tesla.
Currently research suggest that burning fuel combined with water will
eleminate the boiler, and also the heat required to raise the boiler  to
operating temperature.
    I strongly suspect this type of combustion can be combined with a Dobel
continious coil boiler.
Paul
PS Water breaks down into H2 and O2 at 4890F. This temperature can be
produced with solar energy. Heating water with solar energy also reduces
the temperature required for electrolysis by as much as 1/3. H2 will not
burn without at least 14%  O2. On the usa Tesla list we are discussing
using H2 as a storage medium for electricity.

Preston and Gina Tello wrote:

> From: Preston and Gina Tello <tello@...>
>
> hello everyone,
>     I came across this while researching hydrogen systems and was
> wondering if this can be applied to the tesla turbine as an energy
> source.  By using hydrogen as a catalyst to produce the steam which
> would then propel the turbine (perhaps a closed system to recycle the
> water) the boiler would be eliminated resulting in a more simple design
> and a more efficient package.  Scan the page
> (http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/rotary.html) and let me know if the
> concept is feasible for the tesla turbine.
>
> journey well
>
> preston d. tello
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> part of the "TheTeslaTurbineList"...from
> the :"Tesla Technolgy, Today!" group

Hi Paul and all!

Here is the latest on the Whirlpower Research.  I hope Paul and some of you
folks might add your comments and vote for a whirlpool to be built and
better yet help us build the next one.

I hope it strikes some you as totally amazing we have built the first
whirlpool built by man.  It does appear to be true!

Looking forward to some good comments

David

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Press Release            Whirlpower Declaration

Jan 22 2000               To Build A Whirlpool

To all Scientists, Engineers, and Whom it may concern:

From David Dennard and the Whirlpower Group:

This letter is being sent out to in an effort to have a whirlpool built and
tested by science.  After considerable research it has been shown that a
whirlpool has never been built by man before.  It is our opinion that one
should be built, tested, and the results announced to the general public.

The research on this goes back several years on the internet by myself  and
many, many, years by several people on this list.  This information is given
freely to all as a Whirlpower Declaration stating the posibility a whirlpool
can be built in such a way that it will generate electricity, and as a bonus
will actually clean water in the process!

Whirlpower is not a complicated but very simple approach to solving the
pressing needs for clean energy and dealing with the problems caused by the
pollution and danger of current energy sources.  This is not a request for
cash, just that a simple scientific experiment be performed, however those
interested are invited to contact the Whirlpower Team and help support our
efforts.

Whirlpower is based on the most common and simple pattern in nature.  This
pattern is seen in spiral of the galaxies, the movement of the solar system,
the hurricane, river eddies, and even down to the microscopic.  It is seen
in the beauty of all living things, it is life, it is the essence.

Recent scientific discoveries all point to a new understanding of the world
we live in that is very much different than was thought only a few years
ago.  Top astrophysicist Dr. Vera Rubin has stated scientists are going to
have to give up their most precious beliefs. Whirlpower Theory has been on
the crest of this new understanding and predicted many of the discoveries
long before they were announced.  Frame dragging (Stella), mysterious dark
matter (Rubin), the "Cosmic Triangle" (Bachall), and the slowing down of the
speed of light are all predicted by the relative density displacement basis
spelled out in "The Pearl of Wisdom" relating to the fluid nature of space.

Although put down by the dogma of science for a long time it has weathered
the storm and now shows great promise as more and more are finally starting
to see the possibility.

All it takes is to build a whirlpool as described and test it in a
scientific manner.  We are asking any and all who may be interested to try
it.  Any scientific experiment has to be backed up to count. We have built
several small models that show the action I have described, and we have
other tests of principle models by people in our group.  We are working on
building our next whirlpool and want more to join the effort. All work on
this has been done in public domain and we want this to be a public effort
and available for all to use.  Please help us if you can.

All the work on this can be seen at my website and on my list are some of
the most knowledgeable experts in the field of vortex science.  We welcome
any to join with us and help bring the Whirlpower Dream into being.

Below are the members of the Whirlpower Team and their comments.

Thank you for your consideration,

David G. Dennard
655 Doyle LN
Dixon Ca USA 95620

http://www.whirlpower.cc
daviddennard@...

Contact Phone  707-678-0402

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I totally agree that the building of a large whirlpool for the study of
Whirlpower is a great idea and I can't understand the lack of interest by
many mainstream scientists.  I guess it's just a bit too revolutionary
(forgive the pun) for some.  You don't have to have a string of
qualifications and be a head of a University department to come up with a
huge scientific breakthrough.  The guy who thought up the theory of plate
tectonics was laughed at by his seniors until he was proven right.  So don't
be too down hearted if the scientific community doesn't yet have your
vision, David, you may well have the last laugh.

I hope you get the scientific support you deserve

Bill Bimson
Senior Experimental Officer
Magnetic Resonance and Image Analysis Research Centre
Univerity of Liverpool
L69 3BX
England

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I came across David Dennard and his Whirlpower theory some time ago when I
first got exposed to the ideas of Victor Schauberger.  I have an active and
avid interest in David's Whirlpower concepts and have taken up the challenge
to further my understanding in this most  intriguing of ideas.

I am not a scholar nor an academic but I am a realist and to that end I see
lots of potential in some active scientific investigation into the
Whirlpower theory. David is currently championing his water whirlpool based
machine but I feel that the field, should it turn out to demonstrate truth,
extends far some currently unanswered area of scientific investigations.

Neil Simmonds
nsimmonds@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm merely a journalist and not an engineer, but nevertheless I want to add
my vote to the request that someone or group build and scientifically test
the whirlpool concept that David Dennard has been promoting for so long.  It
is an approach that holds promise of working with nature's creative motions
instead of (as in 20th century energy technologies) nature's destructive
motions. It has my vote.  New technologies are urgently needed to clean up
this planet.

Jeane Manning
Author, "The Coming Energy Revolution"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

...I do think your ideas must be tested scientifically... maybe in large
scale if early tests shows promising results. I plan to test Whirlpower
soon... I will share the results (good or bad) in all necessary details. I
will also try to help any other person that tries to do the same. And as an
ending I recomend any other scientist-, private- or buisness person or what
ever you may be, to perform objective, scientific test with the Whirlpower
ideas!

Curt Hallberg
Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/index.html
http://www.newphys.se
qrt.o.tina@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As theories get more complex,the more the parameters of what will be
significant is determined by existing theory...

...A theory will remain in an attractor basin until experimental data and an
alternative theory tips the system over the edge of the basin and a new
paradigm is acknowledged.

Both unexplainable experimental data and an alternative theory are necessary
for a paradigm shift in the normal course of things. It also helps to build
an undeniable apparatus that does what is supposedly impossible in the old
theory.

An alternative theory plus an undeniable apparatus can do the same (this is
after all what this site and many others try to do)

Summation: If you have lots of energy evenly distributed, you can afford to
throw away a portion to get usable work. A mechanism would be a whirlpool
effect.

Andre
aw49@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

New member to the group / not a scientist either / but saw Dennard writing
to a vortex-l post about a year (plus) ago and taking a physics bashing.  He
is truely on to something most of those best minds could only say poo or
huff when they couldn't see/feel or FIGURE it out.

What a marvalous thing the cosmos + whirl = WHIRLPOWER! THE ESSENCE! I'm a
simple-minded male (48 todate) AND IT DOESN'T GET ANY SIMPLER THAN THIS!!

I've messed up my kitchen more times than my wife (Laura) would want to
admit, just playing with this... THE POWER IS THERE!

...Remember it's not the vortex itself so much as the AREA UNDER the upper
pool of spinning liquid.. this null / not so null / area is tapable once the
process is STARTED up. One must be careful not to snuff or stiffle the
vortex (or Power) itself... I think I can do THAT about 100 different ways
(ha.haa) -

Well, just an intro of another lurker on a growing list, I'm all wet in my
kitchen and loving it, (grins) this is simply - but not so simple
WhirlPower!, but I can feel it works  /  Big time  / the Bigger the better!!

steve (go everyone GO ) ekwall
ekwall2@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am a Dutch physicist, and I have had the privilege of meeting David
Dennard in person. Looking at the sketches and listening to David, from time
to time my scientific thinking would emerge with a thought, questioning the
amount of energy that can be extracted without stopping the vortex. But then
my intuitive side would jump in, telling me that David really is on to
something. And I truly believe that his Whirlpower system has potential. It
surely deserves much more than simply dismissing it as impossible. Just
think about the Wright-brothers when they were working on their first flying
machine. They encountered the same skepticism as David, but now airplanes
are a major means of transportation!

My scientific mind can not grasp yet why the Whirlpower would work, but my
intuitive mind tells me that it will work. Although I am a physicist, I do
not have the necessary background in thermodynamics and fluid behavior to be
able to do some calculations, as to which dimensions would be optimal etc.

David is a dreamer, walking his spiritual path despite what other people
say, who can use some help to actualize his dreams.

Edward Maesen
http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Since Schauberger's work, David Dennard is one of the few that understand
how nature works. Like all great discoveries in science, the ones that will
stand for in future generations, the ones Béchamp made in Medicine,
Schwaller in Egyptology, Wronski in Philosophy, Warrain and Charles Henry in
Psychobiophysics, David Dennard's discovery is simple to catch, fertile in
its consequences and comes from a single look on nature's pattern. One has
to see it to understand it.

Whirlpower is not like any vortex, whirlpools are far larger than tall, like
hurricanes. In the same way as hurricanes, whirlpools are centripete, have a
spiral like dense center, where speed, matter and temperature shifts.  This
more dense center and its torrid chaotic flow on the inside also has a
harmonic type flow, - the cosmic chord - on the outside.

David Dennard succeeded in showing us the key to all the unexplained last
discoveries of Schauberger, by showing the source of whirpool / hurricane's
power, its special form, the spiral form of nature and how this spiral form
has two components.  As he says it, "that of chaos and order, and how the
sense of harmony sets up a gravitational density wave that drags a huge
donut shaped current that contains the most basic energy from Nature, The
God Energy of the Infinite Universe, from galaxies to hurricanes, to
whirlpools".

The density wave (Phoenix, Tao of Eagle) is the sign of new mathematics and
could - in a near future - be the flag of a united science, from biology to
physics, if we realize the effectiveness of Whirlpower and bring David's
dream into reality.

Cédric Mannu
cmannu@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The support for David Dennard's Whirlpower theory has come a long way in the
three years that I have been following it. Unfortunately it has met with
much resistance as well. Still, I have yet to see any evidence that this
theory would not work.

Whirlpower is about much more than just generating electricity from a huge
whirlpool, it is about the force of gravity, which extends far beyond the
surface of this planet. Before harnessing the force of gravity, one must
understand the nature of gravity.

Whirlpower is likely to be the key that opens the doors to a new
understanding of the fundamentals of science. It is high time that somebody
builds a whirlpool and puts together some 3D data regarding the nature of
the whirlpool. It will be this data that will show the scientists and
researchers where to look for further clues about the nature of the
universe, and the role gravity has in it.

I have known David for over three years and in support of Whirlpower I put
together the website for his theory: http://www.whirlpower.cc

David Hubbard
dhubcal@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In all places I look in nature I see it. The concept deserves serious R&D, I
myself see many spinoffs that can come out of this research and do vote for
serious research on David's whirlpool technology.

Years from now this concept will be taught in first grade and any scientist
not understanding it today surely will not be remembered then!

To completely deny David Dennard's concept is to accept the earth is still
flat!

Hector D Perez
ARK RESEARCH
arkresearch@...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>
>
> I had some trouble at first trying to understand the drawing. For some reason
I
> always think of black as "empty space" and white as the disks themselves. That
> wasn't the case here - the disks have a fixed outer diameter (the black part)
> and openings with varying diameters.

My 3D skills are limited as it is a 2D program. But you are correct. The rotors
are all the same width, but with progressively larger center inlets for the
compressor, as well as the drive turbine.

>
>
> A while ago, I designed a Tesla Pump that had no shaft but held all the disks
> together with three pins near the inner rim. Would your engine be something
> like this?

I will do a better design. The rotor sections would have the normal amount of
thru
bolts for a 20inch rotor. (about 84) and would be connected to a center shaft of
uniform diamerter 2"+. The only difference would be the center inlet and center
outlet of the compressor  and turbine respectively. The center spokes would be
supported by progressively larger star washers. The idea is to create a vacuum
in
front of the engine as a Tesla pump / compressor will produce a vacuum at the
center and high pressure on the outside edge. This compressed air mixed with
fuel
is ignited in the containment housing, separated from the rotor section by a
Dobel
continious loop boiler.

>
>
> -- Jecel
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Was the salesman clueless?  Productopia has the answers.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/productopiacpc2 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> part of the "TheTeslaTurbineList"...from
> the :"Tesla Technolgy, Today!" group


[This message contained attachments]

>
> You didn't say what the intended applications for this design are.

Some references made by Tesla allude to a plane that moves through the air
"independent of air currents". (Paraphrase) .>That would travel to its
destination with
the certainty of a cannon ball.  My understanding of the Tesla turbine leads me
to
believe it played an integral role in the development of a model of the craft,
(if
indeed one was constructed). This is conjecture on my part but it should be
possible to
construct a flying turbine. The properties would be such that almost every part
of the
flying turbine would create either a vacuum or thrust. The diagram you see is a
suggestion as to how to construct the central turbine, the entire craft being
composed
of an inner and outer turbine which counter rotate. Additional turbines would
provide
gyroscopic stability as well as directional thrust..

> It might be
> interesting for slow moving aircraft or as a lift engine for a VTOL one. I am
> not sure it would work very well as a propulsion unit for faster planes.

True the current configuration does not produce sufficient thrust.  I have
modified the
diagram to include a compressor stage. I am still trying to work the bugs out of
the
best method to accomplish the third stage. Two such suggestions are shown. Other
suggestions would be welcome.

>
>
> Since your design is very symetrical and there are no air inputs/outputs but
> the front and back, I have to conclude that the speed a mass of air at the
exit
> is the same as that which enters the engine, even though the air coming out of
> the compressor/pump is slower than that going into the turbine (since it is
> accelerated in the combustion chamber). This exit speed probably isn't very
> great.

I agree the exit speed is not much as most of the kinetic energy is lost to the
rotor
section.
In my revised diagram I somewhat favor either 2 or 4 turbine mounted at 90
degree
angles ot the drive shaft. These additional turbines could provide stability
(gyroscopically) while adding to thrust.

> I would think only a fraction of the air from the combustion chamber (1/3 or
> less) would be needed to power the turbine to turn the pump (plus heat losses
> plus losses to friction in the bearings and so on) and you could get a lot
more
> thurst by dumping the rest out the back directly.

Probably not made clear in the diagram is the use of liquid H2 to cool the
bearings and
provide heated H2 for combustion.  Since particles move at a tangent to the
compressor
section, addition of 2 or four compressor stages would covert lateral movement
to
backward thrust. For a somewhat esoteric approach to moving particles see the
section
below. No expert in the area I the following section may contain some
misinformation.
Bear with my lack of knowledge.

>
>
> Of course, taking aeronautical advice from an electronics engineer (me) can be
> hazardous to your health.

I have had some discussions with some people who work with jet engines about the
design. The third stage would be necessary as you suggest. This was a first
design and
what I call a screen door theory. ( Full of holes but keeps the larger bugs
out.) The
second design has a slightly finer mesh screen, but still a long way from an
actual
door.

Since you are an EE let me ask you about the Tesla disk generator. Since the
Tesla disk
generator is very similar to the Tesla turbine, it is only a small leap to
assume it
was constructed to run off a Tesla turbine. (If you are not familiar with the
specific
design it is very similar to a Faraday disk generator. The actual design can be
found
in Martins book.)
My design is slightly different:  Assume you have two copper disk pairs that are
on the
same shaft. The disk pairs are the same as the turbine rotor sections with
spokes that
connect the disk pairs to the shaft. If rotated by an outside force such as a
turbine
(electrically insulated from the disk pairs) air would enter the center of the
disk
pair and spiral toward the outside edge as in a compressor. Now if each of these
disks
pairs, on the same shaft, were rotated between two poles of a magnet, a direct
current
would be produced. If the magnets were NS for one disk pair and SN for the other
disk
pair opposite charges would be produced on the outside edge of each disk pair.
The
inside edges would transmit charge along the shaft to the other disk pair. The
strength
of the charge would be geometrically proportional to the rpm and size of the
disks as
well as field strength. .
      My question: If H2 were admitted to the center opening of the disk pair
with the
positive outside charge what would the size and rotational speed of the disk
need to be
to impart  a (+ charge) to the H2.  According to my information it may be
possible to
create negatively charged ozone. If ozone from the ozone layer could be admitted
to the
center of a negatively charged turbine (and thus negatively charged)  the two
gases
would have an attraction for each other.  From some discussions on other lists I
have
determined it might be possible to create an electrical flow over a ceramic
dielectric.
Since the charge is located on the surface it might cause the  surface to act as
a
charged particle or create a charge in particles that flow over the surface. The
Russians have been working on something called a flying fuselage which is
essentially a
ferro ceramic dielectric. A large stored charge such as from an electrolytic
capacitor
is inside the ceramic material. A negative charge is applied to the outside
(somehow
but can't guess at this time how..) As the material moves through the atmosphere
a flow
of electrons is created over the surface. I assume that it flows toward a
positive
charge located on back of the craft. This would cause particles moving over the
surface
to flow toward the + charge at a greater rate due to mutual attraction.   My
readings
on electron flow lasers indicate charged particles can also be manipulated with
magnet
fields to accelerate them.


> -- Jecel
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> part of the "TheTeslaTurbineList"...from
> the :"Tesla Technolgy, Today!" group


[This message contained attachments]

The following website has an easy to construct science project for children.
(See Do it Yourself link under picture). This childs toy represents a
breakthhrough in magnetic levitation that could radically improve turbine
design and other areas of industry.
Paul

>       http://www.sci.kun.nl/hfml/fingertip.html
>
> http://www.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitation-movies.html
>
>

Paul

http://nais.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/EPS/synopsis.cgi?acqid=18702

About half way down this page is a section on turbine development.
Paul

Please evaluate the following paragraph for factual content. I may have made an
incorrect assumption about the properties of disk generators so criticism will
be welcome.
Consider Tesla's patent 406,968.(Dynamo electric machine) or two disk
generator.  If we modify  the use of Halbeck arrays to establish the magnetic
field a permanent magnet generator is produced. Assume we modify the design so
that both disks are on the same shaft. (Inside edges are connected as opposed
to outside edges in Tesla's design.) Similar to Tesla's design the disks
communicate electrically. A high potential charge should be formed on the
outside of each disk based on such things as speed of rotation, strength of
field and size of the disks. If the disks were open at the centers with spokes
to connect the disks to the shaft  eddy currents would be reduced and the
charge of each disk would be fairly uniformly either + or -, as the current
from the center of each disk would flow toward the center of the other disk.
Now assume two disks were at each end of the shaft with a narrow spacing (.03
inch or less). If the each disk in the pair is electrically insulated from the
other no counter emf should occur. If each disk in the pair is electrically
connected to the other disk pair a current equal to the sum of the four disks
should be generated.  Previous discussions have revealed a charge can be
applied to H2.

Since the disks are open at the center a partial vacuum would be created at the
center of the disks and any particles would be pulled into the center. Since
the disk pairs are very close the particles would adhere to the sides and and
be dragged in a spiral path. My question (assuming the above arrangement will
work):
Would H2 introduced at the center of the positive disk pair take on a positive
charge?
Could a substance such as O2 admitted at the other disk pair be forced to take
on a negative charge?
If a positive and negatively charged gas were expelled would they exhibit an
attraction and complete the circuit?
Consider 567,818 electrolytic condenser. Suppose an electrolyte were admitted
at the center of both disk pairs: Would it be possible to create two appositely
charged fluids in this manner?
Paul

I do have a somewhat undeveloped diagram of this.

This mail comes from John Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
Anna




Subject: PM sale


> Does anyone know anything about this? I can't believe its genuine,
but this guy claims to be selling plans for a perpetual motion machine
designed back in the 50's. Claims its genuine. Its up for auction and,
apparently, my informant tells me he'se spoken to the guy and he seems
genuine.

>The guy has a starting price of 5 million in $100
increments, so far it shows 5 million plus $100 so
someone bid on it.

The storyline sounds like the Howard Menger case as he
had a PPM that I have the plans for around here
courtesy of Don Kelly of the Space Energy Association
in Florida.

Menger was here in Dallas a few years ago.  He is the
guy who claims to have been contacted by UFOnauts,
said he got a phone call that has buzzing and clicking
that put him in some kind of trance...once he hung up
the phone, he moved like a robot, constructed a nail
with wire wrapped around it, connected to a battery,
put an aluminum pie tin on top, zapped the nail and
the pan was thrown to the ceiling.  Hysteresis.

I'll see if I can locate the plans for this magnetic
PPM device as it sounds very similar to timeline and
claim.

http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519

this is what the seller says:

This is the one and only authentic blue prints dated
1955- 1966 they have not been shown since 1967. The
documents and blue prints are made for or taken from a
saucer shaped aircraft for technology of a perpetual
motion engine.

These documents consists of blue prints for perpetual
motion engine small enough to fit in a car and blue
prints for a saucer shaped air craft. This also has
fact and experiment sheets all dated back in the 50's
and 60's.

This was tested and flown back in the 60's. Now before
I sell these to a car company. I am offering it to the
public market for collectors, oil companies, car
companies, arrow space technology and anyone of
interests.

I know this sounds unreal so to protect both me and
the highest bidder we will meet at a bank confrence
room and the highest bidder should have a historian
and a engineer with him/her so the documents can be
looked at for proof of age and technology then
transfer funds.

(These documents are perfectly legal and are not from
the government) for questions please e-mail
collector1956@...
---------------------------

http://www.tje.net/para/documents/howard_menger.htm
----------------------
http://www.strodes.ac.uk/menger.htm

A trip to the Moon was part of the account, and he has
photographs allegedly taken on the trip. The book also
describes the construction of free energy devices.

He also has a picture in the book of a machine, or
part of one, which strangely is not mentioned in the
text. Tony Wedd attempted to make this machine using
the picture in conjunction with information from
thought communication, but was not successful.

Menger is currently engaged in building a craft which
he believes will fly.

Menger and his wife appeared recently in the TV
programme Farewell Good Brothers. Contrary to previous
reports, Menger still holds to his story, though is
obviously confused as to why the bases he saw on the
Moon have never been confirmed by astronauts.
--------------------------
http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/home.html

http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/articles.html

This is what Menger has to say:

This may be of special interest: On ABC's "20/20" TV
show Aug. 2, crop-field designs that appeared over
night were shown. The configurations were so
interesting and unique that my wife, Connie, said
jokingly, "It looks like the diagram of a condenser
and/or propulsion system."

I laughed until I saw the last crop circle design -
concentric circles with three equidistant intersecting
lines. This is a diagram I used to build a unique
power supply in 1951. This power supply generated a
high frequency pulsating voltage I used to power my
experimental Electro Craft X-1 in 1951.

When operating, this craft silently rose above the
ground, apparently being able to cancel out the
effects of gravity.

Incidently, proceeds from our book, "The High Bridge
Incident", (and movie rights) will be used to perfect
this and other alien-inspired technologies.
-----------------------------------
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss950320.htm
Menger and wife Connie are on the net again as you can
see in the various links about the Howard Menger
story;

Veteran contactee Howard Menger, whose ufological
exploits go all the way back to the 1950s, is still
lecturing, writing books, and trying to get his
(supposed) anti-gravity saucer models off the ground.

He has a model about 3 feet in diameter that goes up
briefly, and he would now like to build a 10-foot
diameter radio controlled model, which would cost many
thousands of dollars.

Or, the ultimate would be a 40-foot version that would
have the power source as well as the human pilot
actually on board.

Meanwhile, the latest book by Howard and his wife
Connie is called "Threads of Light to You", which
"opens your eyes to endless knowledge, for ever
learning, but never knowing all". The book, available
this coming May will be mailed with an audio tape by
his daughter Heidi Evans, and will cost $25 postpaid.
More on all this later. ...
-----------------------------
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/80/mkleg.html

Originally the novelty of the contact was enough to
capture the interest of its audience. Problems arose
in such contacts: the choice of the contactee and the
aliens' chary attitude to giving quality gifts
commensurate with their benevolent talk.

After a number of embarrassing incidents like the
Adamski photos and Howard Menger's recantation, the
fate of contactees was declining audiences. The advent
of abductions represented a fortuitous turn of
dramaturgy. Abductions brought aliens and humans
together, and then overlaid an element of conflict and
power.

It excused the lack of contact and gifts and, by
diminishing their friendliness, permitted a larger
measure of inscrutability in their acts.
---------------------------
> Go to:-
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
>
> John
>
>
> John Collins, author of:-
> "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------

I can't tell from the diagram how the device works and not enough
information as to the mechanics. Still his book might be an interesting read.

     Perpetual motion (of a sort) is used by current power companies.
Fortunately the rivers are refilled by the weather cycle which (in terms of
human existance) is perpetual. Sure the equipment will break down and the
cycle may eventually change, but the point is moot as we will most likley not
live to see those changes.
     Tesla also designed a perpetual motion machine, based on temperature
differences between water and outside air. Some free information on this
device can be obtained from me. Better information can be obtained from the
book, "Tesla's Engine, a new deminsion for power."
     If saucer research is a goal I might suggest researching Schauberger, as
I will do when I have the time.
Paul
Anna wrote:

>
>
> > Does anyone know anything about this? I can't believe its genuine,
> but this guy claims to be selling plans for a perpetual motion machine
> designed back in the 50's. Claims its genuine. Its up for auction and,
> apparently, my informant tells me he'se spoken to the guy and he seems
> genuine.
>
> >The guy has a starting price of 5 million in $100
> increments, so far it shows 5 million plus $100 so
> someone bid on it.
>
> The storyline sounds like the Howard Menger case as he
> had a PPM that I have the plans for around here
> courtesy of Don Kelly of the Space Energy Association
> in Florida.
>
> Menger was here in Dallas a few years ago.  He is the
> guy who claims to have been contacted by UFOnauts,
> said he got a phone call that has buzzing and clicking
> that put him in some kind of trance...once he hung up
> the phone, he moved like a robot, constructed a nail
> with wire wrapped around it, connected to a battery,
> put an aluminum pie tin on top, zapped the nail and
> the pan was thrown to the ceiling.  Hysteresis.
>
> I'll see if I can locate the plans for this magnetic
> PPM device as it sounds very similar to timeline and
> claim.
>
> http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
>
> this is what the seller says:
>
> This is the one and only authentic blue prints dated
> 1955- 1966 they have not been shown since 1967. The
> documents and blue prints are made for or taken from a
> saucer shaped aircraft for technology of a perpetual
> motion engine.
>
> These documents consists of blue prints for perpetual
> motion engine small enough to fit in a car and blue
> prints for a saucer shaped air craft. This also has
> fact and experiment sheets all dated back in the 50's
> and 60's.
>
> This was tested and flown back in the 60's. Now before
> I sell these to a car company. I am offering it to the
> public market for collectors, oil companies, car
> companies, arrow space technology and anyone of
> interests.
>
> I know this sounds unreal so to protect both me and
> the highest bidder we will meet at a bank confrence
> room and the highest bidder should have a historian
> and a engineer with him/her so the documents can be
> looked at for proof of age and technology then
> transfer funds.
>
> (These documents are perfectly legal and are not from
> the government) for questions please e-mail
> collector1956@...
> ---------------------------
>
> http://www.tje.net/para/documents/howard_menger.htm
> ----------------------
> http://www.strodes.ac.uk/menger.htm
>
> A trip to the Moon was part of the account, and he has
> photographs allegedly taken on the trip. The book also
> describes the construction of free energy devices.
>
> He also has a picture in the book of a machine, or
> part of one, which strangely is not mentioned in the
> text. Tony Wedd attempted to make this machine using
> the picture in conjunction with information from
> thought communication, but was not successful.
>
> Menger is currently engaged in building a craft which
> he believes will fly.
>
> Menger and his wife appeared recently in the TV
> programme Farewell Good Brothers. Contrary to previous
> reports, Menger still holds to his story, though is
> obviously confused as to why the bases he saw on the
> Moon have never been confirmed by astronauts.
> --------------------------
> http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/home.html
>
> http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/articles.html
>
> This is what Menger has to say:
>
> This may be of special interest: On ABC's "20/20" TV
> show Aug. 2, crop-field designs that appeared over
> night were shown. The configurations were so
> interesting and unique that my wife, Connie, said
> jokingly, "It looks like the diagram of a condenser
> and/or propulsion system."
>
> I laughed until I saw the last crop circle design -
> concentric circles with three equidistant intersecting
> lines. This is a diagram I used to build a unique
> power supply in 1951. This power supply generated a
> high frequency pulsating voltage I used to power my
> experimental Electro Craft X-1 in 1951.
>
> When operating, this craft silently rose above the
> ground, apparently being able to cancel out the
> effects of gravity.
>
> Incidently, proceeds from our book, "The High Bridge
> Incident", (and movie rights) will be used to perfect
> this and other alien-inspired technologies.
> -----------------------------------
> http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss950320.htm
> Menger and wife Connie are on the net again as you can
> see in the various links about the Howard Menger
> story;
>
> Veteran contactee Howard Menger, whose ufological
> exploits go all the way back to the 1950s, is still
> lecturing, writing books, and trying to get his
> (supposed) anti-gravity saucer models off the ground.
>
> He has a model about 3 feet in diameter that goes up
> briefly, and he would now like to build a 10-foot
> diameter radio controlled model, which would cost many
> thousands of dollars.
>
> Or, the ultimate would be a 40-foot version that would
> have the power source as well as the human pilot
> actually on board.
>
> Meanwhile, the latest book by Howard and his wife
> Connie is called "Threads of Light to You", which
> "opens your eyes to endless knowledge, for ever
> learning, but never knowing all". The book, available
> this coming May will be mailed with an audio tape by
> his daughter Heidi Evans, and will cost $25 postpaid.
> More on all this later. ...
> -----------------------------
> http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/80/mkleg.html
>
> Originally the novelty of the contact was enough to
> capture the interest of its audience. Problems arose
> in such contacts: the choice of the contactee and the
> aliens' chary attitude to giving quality gifts
> commensurate with their benevolent talk.
>
> After a number of embarrassing incidents like the
> Adamski photos and Howard Menger's recantation, the
> fate of contactees was declining audiences. The advent
> of abductions represented a fortuitous turn of
> dramaturgy. Abductions brought aliens and humans
> together, and then overlaid an element of conflict and
> power.
>
> It excused the lack of contact and gifts and, by
> diminishing their friendliness, permitted a larger
> measure of inscrutability in their acts.
> ---------------------------
> > Go to:-
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > John Collins, author of:-
> > "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> > URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
> >
> >  -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. ZERO. Rates as low as 0
> percent Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers,
> Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and
> get the credit you deserve. Apply now. Get your NextCard Visa at
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/NextcardCreative3 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Anna,

I can't vouch for the authenticity of the perpetual motion machine plans.
  The auction is certainly there on eBay, but you had better hurry.  Only
four more days, and those plans will go to the highest bidder.  Someone
actually has placed a bid at $5 million -- but that guy has only three
feedback reports, one of which is a complaint that he did not pay for an
item on which he won the bid.

It is intstructive to look at the record of the person offering these
extraordinary plans.  Most of what he has bid on is Zorro DVDs and stereo
speakers.  But he was also a bidder on a 20 hp Briggs & Stratton engine,
and a hovercraft powered by a 1600 cc VW engine.  You have to wonder why
a guy with plans for a perpetual motion engine small enough to fit into a
car, and plans also for a saucer-shaped aircraft, has any interest in a
B&S engine or a VW-powered hovercraft.

And you have to wonder about a guy who wants to sell those plans (if not
to a general-public buyer) to an "arrow space company".

Having given this a good deal of thought, lasting at least one
microsecond, I think I am not going to bid.  That leaves the field more
open for those who are better than me at recognizing a good deal, a way
to change the world and to bring us into friendly relations with our
space alien visitors.

Kent



>    Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:11:32 -0700
>    From: "Anna" <pantheon@...>
> Subject: Fw: Perpetual Motion machine plans for sale  at E-Bay
>
> This mail comes from John Collins, author of:-
> "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
> Anna
>
>
>
>
> Subject: PM sale
>
>
> > Does anyone know anything about this? I can't believe its genuine,
> but this guy claims to be selling plans for a perpetual motion
> machine
> designed back in the 50's. Claims its genuine. Its up for auction
> and,
> apparently, my informant tells me he'se spoken to the guy and he
> seems
> genuine.
>
> >The guy has a starting price of 5 million in $100
> increments, so far it shows 5 million plus $100 so
> someone bid on it.
>
> The storyline sounds like the Howard Menger case as he
> had a PPM that I have the plans for around here
> courtesy of Don Kelly of the Space Energy Association
> in Florida.
>
> Menger was here in Dallas a few years ago.  He is the
> guy who claims to have been contacted by UFOnauts,
> said he got a phone call that has buzzing and clicking
> that put him in some kind of trance...once he hung up
> the phone, he moved like a robot, constructed a nail
> with wire wrapped around it, connected to a battery,
> put an aluminum pie tin on top, zapped the nail and
> the pan was thrown to the ceiling.  Hysteresis.
>
> I'll see if I can locate the plans for this magnetic
> PPM device as it sounds very similar to timeline and
> claim.
>
> http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
>
> this is what the seller says:
>
> This is the one and only authentic blue prints dated
> 1955- 1966 they have not been shown since 1967. The
> documents and blue prints are made for or taken from a
> saucer shaped aircraft for technology of a perpetual
> motion engine.
>
> These documents consists of blue prints for perpetual
> motion engine small enough to fit in a car and blue
> prints for a saucer shaped air craft. This also has
> fact and experiment sheets all dated back in the 50's
> and 60's.
>
> This was tested and flown back in the 60's. Now before
> I sell these to a car company. I am offering it to the
> public market for collectors, oil companies, car
> companies, arrow space technology and anyone of
> interests.
>
> I know this sounds unreal so to protect both me and
> the highest bidder we will meet at a bank confrence
> room and the highest bidder should have a historian
> and a engineer with him/her so the documents can be
> looked at for proof of age and technology then
> transfer funds.
>
> (These documents are perfectly legal and are not from
> the government) for questions please e-mail
> collector1956@...
> ---------------------------
>
> http://www.tje.net/para/documents/howard_menger.htm
> ----------------------
> http://www.strodes.ac.uk/menger.htm
>
> A trip to the Moon was part of the account, and he has
> photographs allegedly taken on the trip. The book also
> describes the construction of free energy devices.
>
> He also has a picture in the book of a machine, or
> part of one, which strangely is not mentioned in the
> text. Tony Wedd attempted to make this machine using
> the picture in conjunction with information from
> thought communication, but was not successful.
>
> Menger is currently engaged in building a craft which
> he believes will fly.
>
> Menger and his wife appeared recently in the TV
> programme Farewell Good Brothers. Contrary to previous
> reports, Menger still holds to his story, though is
> obviously confused as to why the bases he saw on the
> Moon have never been confirmed by astronauts.
> --------------------------
> http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/home.html
>
> http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/articles.html
>
> This is what Menger has to say:
>
> This may be of special interest: On ABC's "20/20" TV
> show Aug. 2, crop-field designs that appeared over
> night were shown. The configurations were so
> interesting and unique that my wife, Connie, said
> jokingly, "It looks like the diagram of a condenser
> and/or propulsion system."
>
> I laughed until I saw the last crop circle design -
> concentric circles with three equidistant intersecting
> lines. This is a diagram I used to build a unique
> power supply in 1951. This power supply generated a
> high frequency pulsating voltage I used to power my
> experimental Electro Craft X-1 in 1951.
>
> When operating, this craft silently rose above the
> ground, apparently being able to cancel out the
> effects of gravity.
>
> Incidently, proceeds from our book, "The High Bridge
> Incident", (and movie rights) will be used to perfect
> this and other alien-inspired technologies.
> -----------------------------------
> http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss950320.htm
> Menger and wife Connie are on the net again as you can
> see in the various links about the Howard Menger
> story;
>
> Veteran contactee Howard Menger, whose ufological
> exploits go all the way back to the 1950s, is still
> lecturing, writing books, and trying to get his
> (supposed) anti-gravity saucer models off the ground.
>
> He has a model about 3 feet in diameter that goes up
> briefly, and he would now like to build a 10-foot
> diameter radio controlled model, which would cost many
> thousands of dollars.
>
> Or, the ultimate would be a 40-foot version that would
> have the power source as well as the human pilot
> actually on board.
>
> Meanwhile, the latest book by Howard and his wife
> Connie is called "Threads of Light to You", which
> "opens your eyes to endless knowledge, for ever
> learning, but never knowing all". The book, available
> this coming May will be mailed with an audio tape by
> his daughter Heidi Evans, and will cost $25 postpaid.
> More on all this later. ...
> -----------------------------
> http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/80/mkleg.html
>
> Originally the novelty of the contact was enough to
> capture the interest of its audience. Problems arose
> in such contacts: the choice of the contactee and the
> aliens' chary attitude to giving quality gifts
> commensurate with their benevolent talk.
>
> After a number of embarrassing incidents like the
> Adamski photos and Howard Menger's recantation, the
> fate of contactees was declining audiences. The advent
> of abductions represented a fortuitous turn of
> dramaturgy. Abductions brought aliens and humans
> together, and then overlaid an element of conflict and
> power.
>
> It excused the lack of contact and gifts and, by
> diminishing their friendliness, permitted a larger
> measure of inscrutability in their acts.
> ---------------------------
> > Go to:-
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > John Collins, author of:-
> > "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> > URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
> >
> >  -------------------------------------------------------------

________________________________________________________________
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Hello Kent,
You are so nice.
I have no intention to bid on this item either. I think it
is a well planned fraud.   From any fantastic designs to the practical model
there  is sea and abyss  that  one  must  either fly or swim through.
Would this be a Tesla design, I would be more inclined to believe that it
may actually work.
I don't think it would be an eternal machine, just from the Big Bang forward
and back
to the Big Unbang, like the heart of a clock till the final collapse.
What do you think?
Anna
.

"Fame may be fleeting but obscurity is forever."


----- Original Message -----
From: Kent LL Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
To: <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TeslaTurbine] Digest Number 84


> From: Kent LL Aldershof <aldershof-msi@...>
>
>
> Well, Anna,
>
> I can't vouch for the authenticity of the perpetual motion machine plans.
> The auction is certainly there on eBay, but you had better hurry.  Only
> four more days, and those plans will go to the highest bidder.  Someone
> actually has placed a bid at $5 million -- but that guy has only three
> feedback reports, one of which is a complaint that he did not pay for an
> item on which he won the bid.
>
> It is intstructive to look at the record of the person offering these
> extraordinary plans.  Most of what he has bid on is Zorro DVDs and stereo
> speakers.  But he was also a bidder on a 20 hp Briggs & Stratton engine,
> and a hovercraft powered by a 1600 cc VW engine.  You have to wonder why
> a guy with plans for a perpetual motion engine small enough to fit into a
> car, and plans also for a saucer-shaped aircraft, has any interest in a
> B&S engine or a VW-powered hovercraft.
>
> And you have to wonder about a guy who wants to sell those plans (if not
> to a general-public buyer) to an "arrow space company".
>
> Having given this a good deal of thought, lasting at least one
> microsecond, I think I am not going to bid.  That leaves the field more
> open for those who are better than me at recognizing a good deal, a way
> to change the world and to bring us into friendly relations with our
> space alien visitors.
>
> Kent
>
>
>
> >    Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:11:32 -0700
> >    From: "Anna" <pantheon@...>
> > Subject: Fw: Perpetual Motion machine plans for sale  at E-Bay
> >
> > This mail comes from John Collins, author of:-
> > "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> > URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
> > Anna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: PM sale
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone know anything about this? I can't believe its genuine,
> > but this guy claims to be selling plans for a perpetual motion
> > machine
> > designed back in the 50's. Claims its genuine. Its up for auction
> > and,
> > apparently, my informant tells me he'se spoken to the guy and he
> > seems
> > genuine.
> >
> > >The guy has a starting price of 5 million in $100
> > increments, so far it shows 5 million plus $100 so
> > someone bid on it.
> >
> > The storyline sounds like the Howard Menger case as he
> > had a PPM that I have the plans for around here
> > courtesy of Don Kelly of the Space Energy Association
> > in Florida.
> >
> > Menger was here in Dallas a few years ago.  He is the
> > guy who claims to have been contacted by UFOnauts,
> > said he got a phone call that has buzzing and clicking
> > that put him in some kind of trance...once he hung up
> > the phone, he moved like a robot, constructed a nail
> > with wire wrapped around it, connected to a battery,
> > put an aluminum pie tin on top, zapped the nail and
> > the pan was thrown to the ceiling.  Hysteresis.
> >
> > I'll see if I can locate the plans for this magnetic
> > PPM device as it sounds very similar to timeline and
> > claim.
> >
> > http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
> >
> > this is what the seller says:
> >
> > This is the one and only authentic blue prints dated
> > 1955- 1966 they have not been shown since 1967. The
> > documents and blue prints are made for or taken from a
> > saucer shaped aircraft for technology of a perpetual
> > motion engine.
> >
> > These documents consists of blue prints for perpetual
> > motion engine small enough to fit in a car and blue
> > prints for a saucer shaped air craft. This also has
> > fact and experiment sheets all dated back in the 50's
> > and 60's.
> >
> > This was tested and flown back in the 60's. Now before
> > I sell these to a car company. I am offering it to the
> > public market for collectors, oil companies, car
> > companies, arrow space technology and anyone of
> > interests.
> >
> > I know this sounds unreal so to protect both me and
> > the highest bidder we will meet at a bank confrence
> > room and the highest bidder should have a historian
> > and a engineer with him/her so the documents can be
> > looked at for proof of age and technology then
> > transfer funds.
> >
> > (These documents are perfectly legal and are not from
> > the government) for questions please e-mail
> > collector1956@...
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > http://www.tje.net/para/documents/howard_menger.htm
> > ----------------------
> > http://www.strodes.ac.uk/menger.htm
> >
> > A trip to the Moon was part of the account, and he has
> > photographs allegedly taken on the trip. The book also
> > describes the construction of free energy devices.
> >
> > He also has a picture in the book of a machine, or
> > part of one, which strangely is not mentioned in the
> > text. Tony Wedd attempted to make this machine using
> > the picture in conjunction with information from
> > thought communication, but was not successful.
> >
> > Menger is currently engaged in building a craft which
> > he believes will fly.
> >
> > Menger and his wife appeared recently in the TV
> > programme Farewell Good Brothers. Contrary to previous
> > reports, Menger still holds to his story, though is
> > obviously confused as to why the bases he saw on the
> > Moon have never been confirmed by astronauts.
> > --------------------------
> > http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/home.html
> >
> > http://www.georgevantassel.com/HM/articles.html
> >
> > This is what Menger has to say:
> >
> > This may be of special interest: On ABC's "20/20" TV
> > show Aug. 2, crop-field designs that appeared over
> > night were shown. The configurations were so
> > interesting and unique that my wife, Connie, said
> > jokingly, "It looks like the diagram of a condenser
> > and/or propulsion system."
> >
> > I laughed until I saw the last crop circle design -
> > concentric circles with three equidistant intersecting
> > lines. This is a diagram I used to build a unique
> > power supply in 1951. This power supply generated a
> > high frequency pulsating voltage I used to power my
> > experimental Electro Craft X-1 in 1951.
> >
> > When operating, this craft silently rose above the
> > ground, apparently being able to cancel out the
> > effects of gravity.
> >
> > Incidently, proceeds from our book, "The High Bridge
> > Incident", (and movie rights) will be used to perfect
> > this and other alien-inspired technologies.
> > -----------------------------------
> > http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss950320.htm
> > Menger and wife Connie are on the net again as you can
> > see in the various links about the Howard Menger
> > story;
> >
> > Veteran contactee Howard Menger, whose ufological
> > exploits go all the way back to the 1950s, is still
> > lecturing, writing books, and trying to get his
> > (supposed) anti-gravity saucer models off the ground.
> >
> > He has a model about 3 feet in diameter that goes up
> > briefly, and he would now like to build a 10-foot
> > diameter radio controlled model, which would cost many
> > thousands of dollars.
> >
> > Or, the ultimate would be a 40-foot version that would
> > have the power source as well as the human pilot
> > actually on board.
> >
> > Meanwhile, the latest book by Howard and his wife
> > Connie is called "Threads of Light to You", which
> > "opens your eyes to endless knowledge, for ever
> > learning, but never knowing all". The book, available
> > this coming May will be mailed with an audio tape by
> > his daughter Heidi Evans, and will cost $25 postpaid.
> > More on all this later. ...
> > -----------------------------
> > http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/80/mkleg.html
> >
> > Originally the novelty of the contact was enough to
> > capture the interest of its audience. Problems arose
> > in such contacts: the choice of the contactee and the
> > aliens' chary attitude to giving quality gifts
> > commensurate with their benevolent talk.
> >
> > After a number of embarrassing incidents like the
> > Adamski photos and Howard Menger's recantation, the
> > fate of contactees was declining audiences. The advent
> > of abductions represented a fortuitous turn of
> > dramaturgy. Abductions brought aliens and humans
> > together, and then overlaid an element of conflict and
> > power.
> >
> > It excused the lack of contact and gifts and, by
> > diminishing their friendliness, permitted a larger
> > measure of inscrutability in their acts.
> > ---------------------------
> > > Go to:-
> > >
> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw- cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=257114519
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > John Collins, author of:-
> > > "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
> > > URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk
> > >
> > >  -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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>

"Jecel Assumpcao Jr." wrote:

>
> Hmmm.... I can't find the "ropes of air" citation right now, but this segment
> from the 1911 New York Herald Tribune article (available in lots of places,
> including Frank's Turbine page) shows he was not thinking about what he later
> described in his patents:
>
> "My flying machine will have neither wings nor propellers. You might see it
> on the ground and you would never guess that it was a flying machine. Yet it
> will be able to move at will through the air in any direction with perfect
> safety, higher speeds than have yet been reached, regardless of weather and
> oblivious of 'holes in the air' or downward currents. It will ascend in such
> currents if desired. It can remain absolutely stationary in the air even
> in a wind for great length of time. Its lifting power will not depend upon
> any such delicate devices as the bird has to employ, but upon positive
> mechanical action."
>
> "You will get stability through gyroscopes?" I asked.
>
> "Through gyroscopic action of my engine, assisted by some devices I am not
> yet prepared to talk about," he replied.

Mechanical oscillators (compressors) and disk generators would be my guess. I
think all the parts of
this puzzle are there, just no one has figured out how to combine them. There is
a lot of room for
speculation in this area.
I sratch around below for some of the possible combinations.

>
>
> "Powerful air currents that may be deflected at will, if produced by
> engines and compressors sufficiently light and powerful, might lift a heavy
> body off the ground and propel it through the air," I ventured, wondering
> if I had grasped the inventor's secret.
>
> Dr. Tesla smiled an inscrutable smile. "All I have to say on that point is
> that my airship will have neither gas bag, wings nor propellers," he said.
> "It is the child of my dreams, the product of years of intense and painful
> toil and research. I am not going to talk about it any further. But whatever
> my airship may be, here at least is an engine that will do things that no
> other engine ever has done, and that is something tangible."
>

> If you have two other disks on a different shaft, air
> > admitted by the compressor disk generator would cause them to rotate.
>
> This is possible, though it wouldn't rotate at the same speed as the first
> disks due to losses in both the compressor and the turbine (plus any tube
> connecting them).

  True it would turn at only half the speed of the same size compressor turbine.
Unless charged
particle acceleration took place in the tube. On the usaTesla list we have been
discussing the
possibility of accelerating charged particles by useing wiggler magnets and
attractive charge. But
this is beside my true point.

Not very thouroughly researched Hypothesis: If you have two gases of opposite
charge that converge at
one point, the charge of each of those gases will attract those gases at a
faster flow rate than two
uncharged gases. If these gases approach each other at a 90 degree angle force
will be directed at a
perpendicular to that angle provided the flows are of equal volume. The speed at
which the gases flow
through the tubes can be increased by wiggler magnets which force the gas to
flow in a sine pattern.
This allows the gas to move a longer distance in the same amount of time and
tube length.

Just in case the other Hypothesis is not possible try this one out: A single
positively charged gas
(H2) can be forced to accelerate through a tube by electromagnetic pulse. A
negative ground placed at
the end of the tube would cause the charged gas to be attracted. Arcs between
the ground and H2 would
cause ignition if air is supplied at this point.( I imagine a tube which has
charged H2 flowing in at
one end, toward the other end. The tube converges to speed up gas flow and
injected with oxygen as it
passes through a venturi nozzle. The venturi nozzle (about 200.00$ US. )
increases volume of the flow
40x. The nozzle diverges like a rocket engine. A conductive strip attached to
the negative ground
encircles the inside of the thruster nozzle. It is at this point the H2 and air
mix is ignited.

>
> I know H2 works as a metal at low temperatures, but I am not aware of how it
> behaves as a gas. Using a moving gas as a conductor is an interesting idea,
but
> probably isn't a design that is easy to get right.

H2 stores more electrical energy than any other material per weight.  This is
what occurs in a
capicator that uses distilled water as a dielectric. When the dielectric breaks
down the water
actually lumineces.

>
> Ok, so you have two gasses rushing separately towards the turbine disks. They
> are exchanging heat, causing the water vapor to speed up and the air/fuel
> mixture to slow down (PV/T is constant, so unless you are losing pressure you
> *are* losing volume). The total energy that reaches the disks is the same, but
> the temperature much lower. This sounds like a good plan.

Some volume is lost in the combustion gases,due to heat loss,  which is
reclaimed by the dobel
boiler,  a ceramic containment would insure most of the heat remained inside.

>
>
>
>
> Doesn't this heat exchange happen along all 440 feet of the tube?

Correct,  I envision a double spiral. The injection of steam would occur at the
end of the spirals at
the common nozzle. Combustion gases and steam (would hopefully) be about the
same temperature, when
entering the nozzle to the rotor section.

>
>
> You will consume a ton of water in just half an hour. Doesn't seem worth it
for
> an extra 16 pounds of thrust...

You may have identified a fatal flaw in my logic. Pardon me while I scratch for
a solution.  Hmmm,
since the force produced by particles is squared with acceleration maybe we
should shoot  for speed
over mass. Thats what I was going for in the charged particle example. (They
relate in my mind but I
have not given much detail.) From discussions on the usaTesla list it has been
determined charged
particles can be accelerated. This is accomplished in an electron flow laser.
Since electrons weigh
almost nothing very little force is generated. If a charge could be applied to
water particles the
greater mass and speed would generate greater thrust. Sort of an ion drive.
Members of another list
think it possible to ionize Nitrogen and accelerate it as well.



>
>
>
>
> The valvular conduit is a fantastic idea for pulsed combustion. It doesn't
work
> nearly as well for continuous combustion but it isn't really needed in this
> case. A cumbustion chamber for continuous burns is basically a "flamethrower
in
> a can" and the air naturally goes out the right end (sucking in more air from
> the other end) without much help. This isn't from personal experience,
> however...
>

I have been looking for an alternative idea along these lines. I think a
continuous flow is important
to proper turbine function,thats what I was going for with the steam injection
which is constant, and
damps the vibration of pulsed combustion.  I am unfamiliar with this type
combustion, but a
contiinuous steady heat would be easier to regulate, and in my opinion be more
efficient for heating
the Dobel boiler. Good idea here.

>
> > > [plans for the "dual vortex jet engine" (if you can figure it out from the
> name you are welcome to it :-)]

Sounds similar to what I sought to accomplish with my design. Though doubtful I
will ever have the
capital to work on such a project, I thought if would be interesting to design a
flying turbine. The
outer turbine would rotate around a smaller turbine. The outer tutbine would
counter rotate and
produce a large volume of air. The samller inner turbine would move a samller
volume of air at a
faster rate. This would in my opinion create conditions similar to those in a
tornado. A vortex below
the craft would be produced as the rapidly escaping gas passed through the air
mass below. I saw some
pictures of Schaubergers design that looked like a double vortex also.

>
> > You can publish to TeslaTurbine@onelis which is a general science list. Have
you considered
> > building a prototype combustion chamber?
>
> Er... isn't that the list where we are discussing this now? It is supposed to
> be only about Tesla Turbines. But I guess writing a page about it and posting
> just a link here wouldn't hurt.

Actually I started a Teslaturbine list before I knew about TheTeslaturbine list.
My list is fairly
quiet but is open for publishing any material that is of a scientific nature.  I
post a few articles
there from time to time, but get little response. I do post diagrams there from
time to time I do not
post on other lists for fear of annoying other list members. I also post what I
consider to be
interesting posts from other lists too, so feel free to do the same. Adress is
included at the top.
Paul

>

FM,
    Check this out.
Paul

altmann@... wrote:

> This week's headlines are:
>
> *** The topical quotations (00-02-16)
>
> *** Shell starts internal CO2 trading (00-02-16)
> *** "CO2 dumping" illegal? (00-02-16)
>
> *** dbb and Shell have developed prototype multi-fuel processor (00-02-16)
>
> *** California Fuel Cell Partnership adds new partners (00-02-16)
>
> *** USA: Blueprint for Hydrogen Fuel Infrastructure Development (00-02-16)
>
> *** Linde does not acquire Messer Griesheim, merges with AGA (00-02-16)
>
> *** Energy Summit at Hanover Fair 2000 (00-02-16)
>
> *** Molten Carbonate Fuel Cell to be installed in a Mercedes-Benz US factory
(00-02-16)
>
> *** Plug Power acquires fuel processor technology of Gastec (00-02-16)
>
> *** Hydrogen goes European: European Hydrogen Association founded (00-02-04)
>
> Interested? Then click here: http://www.HyWeb.de/gazette-e
>
> If you do not want to receive regular e-mails with the latest headlines
> of the HyWeb-Gazette, simply send this e-mail back with a short note, please.
>
> Please, pass this message on to other interested parties.
>
> HyWeb is a service of L-B-Systemtechnik GmbH (http://www.lbst.de),
> the Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Consultants since 1983.
>
> Best regards
>
> Matthias Altmann (webmaster@...)
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Matthias Altmann
> L-B-Systemtechnik GmbH
> Daimlerstr. 15
> D-85521 Ottobrunn
> Tel ++49/89/608110-38
> Fax ++49/89/6099731
> http://www.HyWeb.de
> http://www.lbst.de
> -----------------------------------------------

There are a lot of parallels between the work of Schauberger and Tesla.  A
mysterious fire broke out in his lab and destroyed much of the information. When
he died his notes were confiscated and held for 40 years before being released
in
a blackened condition. Many though Tesla was poisoned, no doubt he was
discredited as a mad scientist. Schauberger also invented some flying disks. We
are currently in a discussion about this on TheTeslaTurbine list. Berkant
mentions some German work that was done along these lines and I believe he is
correct in his information. I saw pictures of one of Schaubergers disks.
Indications are both types of craft, Schaubergers and Tesla's use a double
vortex. The crafts are both saucer shaped, and according to some information I
received may have been developed by the military at area 51. One source
indicates
the crafts may be powered by a thermal tube (similar to Tesla's mechanical
oscillator) that also powered the buzz bomber. This tube operates according to
him by vibrating a plate at the end of the tube which compresses the air
generating heat. This is done pyromagnetically. Tesla's big book of patents
details a number of the devices.
Paul

Feb2464@... wrote:

> Paul and List,
> It is my contention after reading of Tesla that perhaps he was "silenced" by
> the US military under top security classification and  we have had Tesla
> saucers and of course extremely high performance aircraft and other
> technologies since his time as evinced by the Nazis in WWII having saucer
> shaped aircraft.
> Dig through the history books and you will find them.
> There is top secret technology which the layperson as well as professionals
> will not become aware of for some time-just the fact of Nano-technology and
> high tensile metals and plastics being discussed in the media is fodder for
> speculation of what the US military really has which may not be revealed for
> 30 to 50 years.
> For a plethora of eclectic developments including this type of subject matter
> as they are reported, check out http://www.wired.com then use your search
> engine to give yourself more indepth information where possible.
> ~Debbie
> >  Debbie,
> >      There is a usaTesla list and a TheTeslaTrubine@onelist.com .  if you
> are
> >  interested. Tesla's magnifying transmitter in my opinion was a method for
> >  production of charged particles. Tesla's inventions form a much larger
> whole
> >  when combined. In a sense we are like the blind men looking at different
> > parts
> >  of the same elephant. It is by discussion we can perceive the whole.  I
> can
> > find
> >  only scant reference to Tesla's flying disk but all the pieces are there,
> it
> >  just requires us to put them together.
> >  Paul
> >  Feb2464@... wrote:
> >
> >  > The above is a link to a site about Tesla coils,how to build, and
> includes
> > at
> >  > the very bottom a "Telsa Web Ring".
> >  > I am convinced that Tesla is the unsung hero of the electric age ignored
> > and
> >  > silenced due to man's greed and need for power. Key to technological
> >  > advancement will be the ability to harness "free" energy which exists in
> > and
> >  > around us without the need to carry bulky energy storage sources.
> >  > While my forte is not in the physical sciences, I have minimal
> > understanding
> >  > with access to information which leads me to think there are
> possibilities
> >  > hidden in the as yet undiscovered facts of the universe at the atomic and
> >  > subatomic levels which remain to be seen.
> >  > ~Debbie
> >  >
> >  > In a message dated 2/15/00 5:29:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> >  > jhandavis@... writes:
> >  >
> >
> >
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Ron,
     Keep the impute on Schauberger coming. I think the two designs are closely
related. I think you have uncovered an important link.
     I am no chemist either but I can give some H2 facts.  An incendiary bullet
was
fired into a tank filled with H2. No explosion. Why? The H2 escaping was so cold
it
caused the O2 to drop out of the air. H2 will not burn unless O2 content is
above
14%. The escaping gas literally froze the O2 when it came in contact with the
air.
We know that Tesla's mechanical oscillator could liquefy H2. Was he using liquid
H2
to separate the O2 from water vapor?
     As for vacuum: If you pull a hard vacuum on water it will freeze. But guess
what, the ice will continue to produce steam, it is literally boiling ice. Tesla
discovered that a vacuum applied at the condenser would cause water in the
boiler to
boil at ambient temperature. This was the secret of his energy wells.
      An interesting fact also. If you take a cylinder full of water with a
piston in
it and strike it with a hammer it will freeze. If you heat the piston and strike
it
the ice will separate into H and O and will explode. (Not a good experiment to
try.)  Tesla's mechanical oscillator might have been modified to do this.
        I read some place that Schauberger used crystals to produce piezo
electricity. I think Tesla used a disk generator. I am guessing that water vapor
subjected to  a high voltage electrical and magnetic field might produce the
plasma
you refer to below. This charged plasma could be accelerated to produce high
speed
particles. This fuel source could be replenished by atmospheric moisture as well
as
on board supply.
      Richard Hulls experiments on capacitor discharge also point to another
possibility. Molecular expansion of water. I am not sure what would happen to
liquid
H2 but I would guess the same thing to occur at a much lower voltage. This
material
would implode if allowed to release its charge. The byproduct of H2 O2
combustion
(water) also occupies a much smaller space than the two gases. Ignited in a
cylinder
they would first combust and expand driving the cylinder. They would then
contract,
pulling the cylinder, and possibly freezing the water vapor. The piston would
then
slam into the ice and if it where hot would cause combustion. (Imagine here a
long
tube that was closed at each end with a piston in between. Ignition would occur
alternately on each end but would be assisted by the vacuum produced on the
other
end. If the piston were magnetic and passed between coils around the tube,
current
would be produced.)
      So many different directions one could follow. I suggest we each take a
direction and compile our results.  I volunteer to do some experiments with
copper
disk generators and particle acceleration. My suspicions are that charged
particles
can be accelerated mechanically and electrically. I will do a bit more research
on
the area while I am finishing my turbine to rotate them.

Ron &/or Hettie Fuson wrote:

> From: Ron &/or Hettie Fuson <merrygo@...>
>
> Hello list members,
> I believe you men are on to something. It is found in several of Viktors books
> that he employed the "Trout Turbine", which made use of the same phenomenon
that
> fish use to sit still in a cold (and therefore energetic) swift moving stream.
He
> found that by pouring a large amount of hot water into the stream above the
fish,
> effectively heating the water flow by a mere few degrees, the fish would
thrash
> wildly but still not maintain the position  it had previously kept with
relative
> ease. The fish would flow down stream against its own wishes! He had
previously
> witnessed a related phenomenon with heavy logs in his amazing log flumes, the
> logs would actually travel up stream...that's right, up stream, how can this
be!
> When he asked his "superior" where he thought the water would be colder, above
or
> below a large stone in the flow of a stream, the "superior" replyed that it
would
> be colder above the stone because the friction of the water on the stone would
> heat the water below. Wrong answer...the water below the stone is measurably
> colder, because of the vortexian action caused by the water moving around the
> stone.
> When studying the makeup of a funnel cloud, or tornado, we find that hot,
moist
> air is travelling up the outside of the funnel and cold dry air is traveling
down
> the inside of the funnel. When the hot, moist (humid) ground air rotates (with
or
> against?) the cold high alt. air (largely H++?), hale balls of various sizes
are
> formed and thrown out when they reach sufficient size and mass. What about the
> cloud lightning at the top of the funnel?
> Mike found that ice formed on the spokes of the disks around the exhaust
outlet
> fo his turbine. Much like the thermal vortexes used by industry, whereby air
> under pressure is forced into a pipe at a right angle and to the outer edge,
> which causes the air to vortex. If we check the air temp exiting a center hole
at
> one end of the pipe, it's cold! If we check the air temp of the  air exiting a
> hole around the periphery of the other end of the pipe, it's hot! I would
think
> that the temperature at the outer periphery of the casing would be
considerably
> warmer than at the axis of the rotor.
> When the men at GEET ran the fuel line up the exhaust of thier IC engine,
> effectively vaporizing the fuel, then past the GASoline vapors through a
magnetic
> field and ran the engine on this plasma(?), some strange things took place.
The
> manifold developed a substantial charge (+ or -?), my vote says minus. The
> exhaust had ice forming on it!
> Viktor observed that, in spite of the fact that the North Pole, and
alternately
> the South Pole, gets months of long sunlit days, they are still the coldest
> climates on the planet. The sunlight at the poles is more intense but its
radiant
> heat less and at the equator the light and heat are more diffuse. There is,
> building toward the equator, more and more, humidity (or vaporized H2O)! I
> believe as we move closer to the of  the North Pole, its + charge would
attract
> O- and repel H++, and do the opposite at the South Pole. Hence the absence of
> percipitate found at the very poles of the earth?
>
> So, bare with me, I'm not a chemist, but I'd like to know what the charge (or
> potential) is from the hot to the cold side, of one of those thermal votexes,
is
> it measurable?. I'd like to know if the hot side has given up it's hydrogen+
> content, due to inertia, and the cold side adopted the H+.
> Is there an exchange of ions in a fast flowing icy cold stream, opposite the
flow
> of water?
> When we climb a high mountain the oxygen content becomes less, but does the
> content of hydrogen become more?
> At the poles, is the relative charge at each, upsetting the balance of H++ and
O-
> and is this why the precipitation is minimal, the sunlight intense and the
> temperatures cold? Both pure hydrogen and pure oxygen are extremely chilling.
> In effect, does the vortex have the same effect on H++ and O- as the magnetic
> North and South Poles and is this how Viktor got 50,000 volts out of his
> "Domestic Power Generator", using only a 1/4hp motor to run it?
>
> Now it gets interesting. If we consider that by vortexing air or water, the H
is
> effectively squeezed to the center and the O, because of its relative mass,
gets
> centrafuged to the perimeter by inertia, then this would account for a
potential,
> from center to perimeter.
> If we consider Mikes air pressure driven turbine, I would venture to guess
that
> the hydrogen content is greater at the exhaust than at the intake. Oxygen is
> effectively compressed by inertia and occupies the majority of the periphery
> because of the relative atomic mass. An abnormal imbalance of Hydrogen would
be
> "sucked" in at the nozzle to offset the - charge created by the O at the outer
> edge of the turbine disks. That hydrogen would, because of its relatively
light
> atomic mass, be pushed to the exhaust outlets
> If we developed a turbine  that spins like a top (with its axis virtical) and
> positioned the intake at the axis on the top side and the exhaust at the axis
on
> the bottom side, a virtual "ROPE OF AIR" (largely H++ on the top and O- on the
> bottom) would develope. The oxygen- would, because of its mass, be trapped
inside
> the housing and the H++ would be syphoned  in at the inlet because of its
+charge
> and exhausted at the outlet because of its light weight! The H++ would form a
> virtual funnel from the upper atmosphere to the intake of the turbine. As
> effectively as the H++ is being pulled to the intake of the turbine, the O-
> "trapped" in the casing because of inertia is drawn upward by the H++. At the
> outlet of the turbine (bottom) a funnel of O- would be made from the "Ground"
> charge (O-) to the H++ exhaust. The rush of O- along the bottom side of the
> casing would repel the turbine upward due to the O- charge trapped in the
casing.
>
> The first step would be to test this theory with sensative electrical
equipment
> and a properly configured turbine (belt driven at high speed from the shaft)
to
> check its validity. The second step to figure out the implossive action of
> Viktors "Trout Turbine", which he "started" using a 1/20 hp electric motor.
> My brain hurts now, so I better go!
> Ron
>
> Rayfayeb@... wrote:
>
> > From: Rayfayeb@...
> >
> > Paul Eitson,
> > Now you have my attention. Ropes of air!!! A little further down you said
> > that Schaubergers design looked like a double vortex. Do you mean two
> > vortexes next to each other?  Are powerful air currents vortexes from the
> > engine or two engines? Is that why Schaubergers design has two vortexes (2)
> > engines?
> > If that is true, what does air do when you spin it like a vortex? A jumbo
jet
> > forms vortexes from the wing tips. If one flys through it you will be turned
> > over and possibly lose control. Therefore we are getting large forces that
> > want to stay together for a short period of time, is that a rope of air? Is
> > Tesla making making powerful air currents (like a jet engine) or vortexes or
> > ropes of air (but that is something different than a jet engine). If that is
> > his secret, how does he make the vortex, does he use a jet engine?
> > Rather than determining how he made the vortex, how do you control vortexes
> > coming from this mechanical engine? If one thinks of this vortex as coming
> > from some type of engine can they be directed and would they give more lift
> > than the jet's thrust? Thrust and vortex are different. Seems to me that a
> > vortex grabs the surrounding air and pulls it in tighter and tighter so you
> > actually have something to hang on to like a rope of air. Is this it? Thrust
> > dissipates while vortex tightens.
> > Can you help here?
> > Ray
> >
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Comparison of lift surfaces.
    The rotor section of a helicopter (I have to guess on dimensions) is
roughly 20 feet long and 6 inches wide. Assuming that both sides of the
rotor are used in lift this is about 20 square feet of lift area.
Consider a turbine of 20 foot diameter consisting of 23 rotor sections
and two end plates with a total thickness of 4 inches that was only 2
foot wide. Outside diameter 20 feet, inside diameter 18 feet. (Median
diameter 19 feet) If you assume each space between the rotors to be a
lift section you would have a total of 24 spaces. Using the median
diameter you come up with a surface area of 2863 square feet , more than
100X the lift area of a helicopter.
     We also know the coanda effect results in lift if we place the rotor
section under an appropriately shaped cover. I might add several other
things will occur also. 1. A negative or low pressure area will occur
above the rotor section (provided it vents from only one side). 2. Air
from the rotor section will strike the cover and produce heat from
compression, resulting in a high pressure area under the rotor section.
3. If  the rotor speed is sufficient there is a possibility that
ionization will occur (Correct me if I am wrong on this point.) 3. If
ionization occurs it may be possible to direct the charged particles
resulting in a sort of ion drive.
       Assuming a rotational speed of 500 rpm the outside edge of the
disk (62.8 ft. circumference) would be moving at 31400 foot per minute,
or 356 mph. Air flow would be approximately 1/2 that speed or about 175
mph.
        Magnetically levitated  trains many tons in weight can be
propelled at speed of up to 200 mph, so this is not an unreasonable goal
to attain. I calculate the rotor section to consist of 72 cubic foot of
steel. Small in comparison to the weight of a train. If the rotor
section were attached to a circular track it should easily be able to
turn at 400 mph. Magnetically levitated frictional resistance should be
limited to drag, which in this case is the propelling force.  A
centrally located counter rotating engine of smaller mass and higher
speed would make the turbine gyroscopically stable. Addition of
horizontally mounted turbines would control tilt in the same manner a
helicopter's back propeller works, with the exception that a directed
flow from them would contribute to lift .

Paul.

PS. I do believe it possible to build a scale model, substituting an
electric motor as the drive mechanism although in a scale model it would
not be necessary to magnetically levitate the rotor, only to affix it to
the counter rotating section.

Below is some information on ionization. My comments are listed as Paul
notes.
Paul
Ionization :

Ionization is any process by which electrically neutral atoms or
molecules are converted to electrically charged atoms or
molecules (ions). Ionization is one of the principal ways that
radiation, such as charged particles and X rays, transfers
its energy to matter.

Ionization by collision occurs in gases at low pressures when an
electric current is passed through them.

Paul note: This supports my idea of charged turbines. Look at Tesla’s
patent #406,968.
I have modified this design to produce two oppositely charged turbines.


  If the electrons
constituting the current have sufficient energy (the ionization energy
is different for each substance), they force other
electrons out of the neutral gas molecules, producing ion pairs that
individually consist of the resultant positive ion and
detached negative electron. Negative ions are also formed as some of the
electrons attach themselves to neutral gas
molecules. Gases may also be ionized by intermolecular collisions at
high temperatures.

Paul note: Gases from a turbine of very large diameter would be ejected
at speeds up to 700 mph. If they strike a surface heat from compression
would result. If the surface were electrified I think Ionization would
occur.

Ionization, in general, occurs whenever sufficiently energetic charged
particles or radiant energy travel through gases,
liquids, or solids. Charged particles, such as alpha particles and
electrons from radioactive materials, cause extensive
ionization along their paths.

Paul note: One guy I know claims experimental aircraft emitt hard
radiation and are dangerous. Don’t know how realiable this info is but
no doubt if the government designed something they used radioactive
materials to increase ionization.



  Energetic neutral particles, such as neutrons and neutrinos, are more
penetrating and cause
almost no ionization. Pulses of radiant energy, such as X-ray and
gamma-ray photons, can eject electrons from atoms
by the photoelectric effect to cause ionization. The energetic electrons
resulting from the absorption of radiant energy
and the passage of charged particles in turn may cause further
ionization, called secondary ionization. A certain minimal
level of ionization is present in the Earth's atmosphere because of
continuous absorption of cosmic rays from space and
ultraviolet radiation from the Sun.

Paul note: Tesla did research on cosmic rays. His magnifing transmitter
is an offshoot.

Hi Paul,

This is a good example of how gravity works in relative density
displacemant, same thing happens in evaporation.  The tech name for this
action is "solvation".  Any time something is excited or charged it changes
the relative density, then gravity balances the scales of density.  Like in
Whirlpower tapping into gravity is key to Tesla's "wheel work of nature".

Sure wish you would build a whirlpool.  All evidence is one has never been
built by man before.  I bet Tesla would say, "what, never built before?
Then by golly let's build one!"

David


>From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
>Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
>To: Turbine List <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
>Subject: [TeslaTurbine] ionization
>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:17:29 -0600
>
>Below is some information on ionization. My comments are listed as Paul
>notes.
>Paul
>Ionization :
>
>Ionization is any process by which electrically neutral atoms or
>molecules are converted to electrically charged atoms or
>molecules (ions). Ionization is one of the principal ways that
>radiation, such as charged particles and X rays, transfers
>its energy to matter.
>
>Ionization by collision occurs in gases at low pressures when an
>electric current is passed through them.
>
>Paul note: This supports my idea of charged turbines. Look at Tesla’s
>patent #406,968.
>I have modified this design to produce two oppositely charged turbines.
>
>
>  If the electrons
>constituting the current have sufficient energy (the ionization energy
>is different for each substance), they force other
>electrons out of the neutral gas molecules, producing ion pairs that
>individually consist of the resultant positive ion and
>detached negative electron. Negative ions are also formed as some of the
>electrons attach themselves to neutral gas
>molecules. Gases may also be ionized by intermolecular collisions at
>high temperatures.
>
>Paul note: Gases from a turbine of very large diameter would be ejected
>at speeds up to 700 mph. If they strike a surface heat from compression
>would result. If the surface were electrified I think Ionization would
>occur.
>
>Ionization, in general, occurs whenever sufficiently energetic charged
>particles or radiant energy travel through gases,
>liquids, or solids. Charged particles, such as alpha particles and
>electrons from radioactive materials, cause extensive
>ionization along their paths.
>
>Paul note: One guy I know claims experimental aircraft emitt hard
>radiation and are dangerous. Don’t know how realiable this info is but
>no doubt if the government designed something they used radioactive
>materials to increase ionization.
>
>
>
>  Energetic neutral particles, such as neutrons and neutrinos, are more
>penetrating and cause
>almost no ionization. Pulses of radiant energy, such as X-ray and
>gamma-ray photons, can eject electrons from atoms
>by the photoelectric effect to cause ionization. The energetic electrons
>resulting from the absorption of radiant energy
>and the passage of charged particles in turn may cause further
>ionization, called secondary ionization. A certain minimal
>level of ionization is present in the Earth's atmosphere because of
>continuous absorption of cosmic rays from space and
>ultraviolet radiation from the Sun.
>
>Paul note: Tesla did research on cosmic rays. His magnifing transmitter
>is an offshoot.
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I am new to the list.
To what are you referring by Whirlpool?

Regards
Forrest



On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:05:04 PST, you wrote:

>From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard@...>
>
>Hi Paul,
>
>This is a good example of how gravity works in relative density
>displacemant, same thing happens in evaporation.  The tech name for this
>action is "solvation".  Any time something is excited or charged it changes
>the relative density, then gravity balances the scales of density.  Like in
>Whirlpower tapping into gravity is key to Tesla's "wheel work of nature".
>
>Sure wish you would build a whirlpool.  All evidence is one has never been
>built by man before.  I bet Tesla would say, "what, never built before?
>Then by golly let's build one!"
>
>David
>
>
>>From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
>>Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
>>To: Turbine List <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
>>Subject: [TeslaTurbine] ionization
>>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:17:29 -0600
>>
>>Below is some information on ionization. My comments are listed as Paul
>>notes.
>>Paul
>>Ionization :
>>
>>Ionization is any process by which electrically neutral atoms or
>>molecules are converted to electrically charged atoms or
>>molecules (ions). Ionization is one of the principal ways that
>>radiation, such as charged particles and X rays, transfers
>>its energy to matter.
>>
>>Ionization by collision occurs in gases at low pressures when an
>>electric current is passed through them.
>>
>>Paul note: This supports my idea of charged turbines. Look at Tesla’s
>>patent #406,968.
>>I have modified this design to produce two oppositely charged turbines.
>>
>>
>>  If the electrons
>>constituting the current have sufficient energy (the ionization energy
>>is different for each substance), they force other
>>electrons out of the neutral gas molecules, producing ion pairs that
>>individually consist of the resultant positive ion and
>>detached negative electron. Negative ions are also formed as some of the
>>electrons attach themselves to neutral gas
>>molecules. Gases may also be ionized by intermolecular collisions at
>>high temperatures.
>>
>>Paul note: Gases from a turbine of very large diameter would be ejected
>>at speeds up to 700 mph. If they strike a surface heat from compression
>>would result. If the surface were electrified I think Ionization would
>>occur.
>>
>>Ionization, in general, occurs whenever sufficiently energetic charged
>>particles or radiant energy travel through gases,
>>liquids, or solids. Charged particles, such as alpha particles and
>>electrons from radioactive materials, cause extensive
>>ionization along their paths.
>>
>>Paul note: One guy I know claims experimental aircraft emitt hard
>>radiation and are dangerous. Don’t know how realiable this info is but
>>no doubt if the government designed something they used radioactive
>>materials to increase ionization.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Energetic neutral particles, such as neutrons and neutrinos, are more
>>penetrating and cause
>>almost no ionization. Pulses of radiant energy, such as X-ray and
>>gamma-ray photons, can eject electrons from atoms
>>by the photoelectric effect to cause ionization. The energetic electrons
>>resulting from the absorption of radiant energy
>>and the passage of charged particles in turn may cause further
>>ionization, called secondary ionization. A certain minimal
>>level of ionization is present in the Earth's atmosphere because of
>>continuous absorption of cosmic rays from space and
>>ultraviolet radiation from the Sun.
>>
>>Paul note: Tesla did research on cosmic rays. His magnifing transmitter
>>is an offshoot.
>>
>>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! ZERO! Rates as low as 0.0%
>Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
>no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit
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Hi Forest,

Whirlpool, meaning like a river eddy, very wide not very deep, hurricane
pattern, small vortex in the center.  Extensive research and now back up by
top vortex experts comfirms it.  Never built before by man.  Even author
Callum Coats, of "The Living Energies". who translated Viktor Schauberger's
works is in accord.  One of our team members has now gone to Australia to
have a meeting.  I was invited to go but can't afford to.

So we are on to something, big time.

Hope you will visit my website check it out, join my list, help us figure
this.  Tugging on Paul too!!! :)

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc


>From: Forrest Halford <forrest1911@...>
>Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
>To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [TeslaTurbine] ionization
>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:26:21 -0700
>
>From: Forrest Halford <forrest1911@...>
>
>I am new to the list.
>To what are you referring by Whirlpool?
>
>Regards
>Forrest
>
>
>
>On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:05:04 PST, you wrote:
>
> >From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard@...>
> >
> >Hi Paul,
> >
> >This is a good example of how gravity works in relative density
> >displacemant, same thing happens in evaporation.  The tech name for this
> >action is "solvation".  Any time something is excited or charged it
>changes
> >the relative density, then gravity balances the scales of density.  Like
>in
> >Whirlpower tapping into gravity is key to Tesla's "wheel work of nature".
> >
> >Sure wish you would build a whirlpool.  All evidence is one has never
>been
> >built by man before.  I bet Tesla would say, "what, never built before?
> >Then by golly let's build one!"
> >
> >David
> >
> >
> >>From: Paul Eitson <xyme2@...>
> >>Reply-To: TeslaTurbine@onelist.com
> >>To: Turbine List <TeslaTurbine@onelist.com>
> >>Subject: [TeslaTurbine] ionization
> >>Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:17:29 -0600
> >>
> >>Below is some information on ionization. My comments are listed as Paul
> >>notes.
> >>Paul
> >>Ionization :
> >>
> >>Ionization is any process by which electrically neutral atoms or
> >>molecules are converted to electrically charged atoms or
> >>molecules (ions). Ionization is one of the principal ways that
> >>radiation, such as charged particles and X rays, transfers
> >>its energy to matter.
> >>
> >>Ionization by collision occurs in gases at low pressures when an
> >>electric current is passed through them.
> >>
> >>Paul note: This supports my idea of charged turbines. Look at Teslaâ*™s
> >>patent #406,968.
> >>I have modified this design to produce two oppositely charged turbines.
> >>
> >>
> >>  If the electrons
> >>constituting the current have sufficient energy (the ionization energy
> >>is different for each substance), they force other
> >>electrons out of the neutral gas molecules, producing ion pairs that
> >>individually consist of the resultant positive ion and
> >>detached negative electron. Negative ions are also formed as some of the
> >>electrons attach themselves to neutral gas
> >>molecules. Gases may also be ionized by intermolecular collisions at
> >>high temperatures.
> >>
> >>Paul note: Gases from a turbine of very large diameter would be ejected
> >>at speeds up to 700 mph. If they strike a surface heat from compression
> >>would result. If the surface were electrified I think Ionization would
> >>occur.
> >>
> >>Ionization, in general, occurs whenever sufficiently energetic charged
> >>particles or radiant energy travel through gases,
> >>liquids, or solids. Charged particles, such as alpha particles and
> >>electrons from radioactive materials, cause extensive
> >>ionization along their paths.
> >>
> >>Paul note: One guy I know claims experimental aircraft emitt hard
> >>radiation and are dangerous. Donâ*™t know how realiable this info is but
> >>no doubt if the government designed something they used radioactive
> >>materials to increase ionization.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Energetic neutral particles, such as neutrons and neutrinos, are more
> >>penetrating and cause
> >>almost no ionization. Pulses of radiant energy, such as X-ray and
> >>gamma-ray photons, can eject electrons from atoms
> >>by the photoelectric effect to cause ionization. The energetic electrons
> >>resulting from the absorption of radiant energy
> >>and the passage of charged particles in turn may cause further
> >>ionization, called secondary ionization. A certain minimal
> >>level of ionization is present in the Earth's atmosphere because of
> >>continuous absorption of cosmic rays from space and
> >>ultraviolet radiation from the Sun.
> >>
> >>Paul note: Tesla did research on cosmic rays. His magnifing transmitter
> >>is an offshoot.
> >>
> >>
> >
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