The 'definitive' word on the sub-species of the Fragrant Orchid, G. conopsea
would seem to be that they are not sufficiently different to be classified
as seperate species. Delforge, in The Collins guide to the Orchids of
Britain and Europe, splits nearly everything but he leaves G. conopsea
intact.

Genetic and floral divergence among sympatric populations of Gymnadenia
conopsea SL (orchideaceae) with different flowering phenology
Soliva M, Widmer A
INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF PLANT SCIENCES 160: (5) 897-905 SEP 1999

Abstract:
Gymnadenia conopsea s.l. is a common orchid in central Europe, where early-
and late-flowering populations can be distinguished. The early-flowering
form is recognized as subspecies conopsea and the late-flowering form as
subspecies densiflora. The two subspecies can occur in sympatry, but their
flowering periods are separated. We investigated whether early- and
late-flowering subspecies are genetically differentiated, whether they
diverged once or repeatedly, and we tried to identify potential evolutionary
forces involved in the divergence of the two subspecies. We used genetic
markers to estimate genetic divergence within and among populations of
early- and late-flowering G. conopsea, and to reconstruct their evolutionary
history. In addition, we assessed morphological variation between
subspecies. Allozyme variation indicated that subspecies conopsea was
significantly more variable than ssp. densiflora a and that gene flow among
populations of ssp. conopsea was higher than among populations of ssp,
densiflora. Gene flow between subspecies was low, indicating that the
difference in flowering phenology represented an effective barrier to gene
flow. A neighbor-joining tree based on allozyme frequencies indicated that
early- and late- flowering populations did not diverge repeatedly in
sympatry. Levels of cpDNA variation were generally low, even between G.
conopsea s.l. and Gymnadenia odoratissima, chosen as an outgroup. Four cpDNA
haplotypes were found, which differed only in the number of microsatellite
repeats. Their distribution among subspecies of G. conopsea s.l. and G.
odoratissima indicates that microsatellite haplotypes have evolved
repeatedly, and their occurrence in different taxa thus represents a
homoplasy. Floral characters were variable within and among populations and
subspecies but did not consistently separate early- from late-flowering
populations. A weak separation between subspecies was found in vegetative
characters that presumably reflected habitat and competitive differences
experienced by early- and late-flowering populations.

----- Original Message -----
From: John Stevens
To: UKBotany
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:59 PM
Subject: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid

Hi!

I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps of
Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.

Any thoughts please folks?

Regards

John


P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
no good reason?


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The Hog's Fennel moth is Fisher's Estuarine Moth which is currently known
only from Essex I think - I guess its been looked for at Faversham but if
you do come across any caterpillars on the plant then get them checked out!

Andy Musgrove
e-mail: andy.musgrove@...

----- Original Message -----
From: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
To: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 2:52 PM
Subject: [UKBotany] Digest Number 7


>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 11 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Re: Childing pink
>            From: "Sarah Patton" <squirrel@...>
>       2. New file uploaded to UKBotany
>            From: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
>       3. Pagham Vegetated Shingle
>            From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
>       4. Fragrant Orchid
>            From: "John Stevens" <anax@...>
>       5. RE: Fragrant Orchid
>            From: "Jon" <insect@...>
>       6. Ferns in Cornwall
>            From: "Matt Stribley" <matt@...>
>       7. Re: Ferns in Cornwall
>            From: "Matt Stribley" <matt@...>
>       8. Peucedenum officianale
>            From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
>       9. Sea Hog's Fennel
>            From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
>      10. Re: Fragrant Orchid
>            From: "John Stevens" <anax@...>
>      11. Re: Sea Hog's Fennel
>            From: Vincent Smith <vince.smith@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:24:10 -0000
>    From: "Sarah Patton" <squirrel@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Childing pink
>
> Re: [UKBotany] Re: Childing pinkYes, indeed, they were thought to be
confined to West Sussex, but I'm very glad they are elsewhere. Shingle is
such a fragile habitat it's good to know that even small populations exist
elsewhere in case something terrible happens.
> Sarah
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Vincent Smith
>   To: UKBotany@egroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 11:01 AM
>   Subject: Re: [UKBotany] Re: Childing pink
>
>
>   on 3/12/00 8:37 am, Sarah Patton at squirrel@... wrote:
>
>
>     Th plants are well spread across the shingle right around that area -
it always seems ironic when something so rare is so prolific that you are
almost tripping over it!
>     Interestingly, there were still plants in flower very late in the
autumn - into October.
>     We have excellent vegetated shingle at Pagham and at least one guided
walk to look at it in the summer. Anyone wanting further details should
contact me at Pagham Harbour.
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Childing Pink has been found further West than Pagham Harbour (West
Sussex) on Hayling Island (Hampshire). In 1997 the Common Fiddleneck
(Amsinkia micrantha) an invader from North America was found for the first
time. During 1998 whilst this invasive species was being surveyed several
Childing Pink plants were found. I believe that before this it was thought
to be confined to West Sussex. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Vince.
>
>
>   --
>   Join the Cornish Wildlife Mailing List:
>   Send a blank e-mail to CornishWildlife-subscribe@egroups.com
>   or from the web page at http://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/cornwall
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         eGroups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: 3 Dec 2000 17:24:28 -0000
>    From: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
> Subject: New file uploaded to UKBotany
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the UKBotany
> group.
>
>   File        : /Wild Flower Images/Lucky.jpg
>   Uploaded by : bmlss@...
>   Description : What is this Flower?  (Sussex)  Difficulty Level:
Impossibly Difficult
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://www.egroups.com/files/UKBotany/Wild+Flower+Images/Lucky%2Ejpg
>
> To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
>
> http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
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>
> Regards,
>
> bmlss@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:37:24 -0500
>    From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
> Subject: Pagham Vegetated Shingle
>
> Hellon Sarah,
>
> What are the most noticeable wild plants on the vegetated shingle at
> Pagham?
>
> Is there a web site I can put a link to?
>
> The most noticeable at Shoreham beach are:
>
> Yellow-horned Poppy, Red Valerian, Dock, Sea Kale, Silver Ragwort, Tree
> Mallow, Viper's Bugloss, Spear-leaved Orache, Tamarisk, Opium Poppy, Sea
> Campion, Rock Samphire.
>
> Photographs at:
>
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/JASC3/SHINGLE_PLANTS.htm
>
> Shoreham beach incomplete list at:
>
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shingle.htm  (Shingle Plants)
>
> Excludes the Widewater Lagoon flood plain that has different flora:
> Stonecrops, Thrift.
>
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/brackish.htm  (Widewater)
>
> Childing Pink is a sand dune plant  (at Shoreham beach - is it the same at
> Pagham?), and the area left is not much bigger than a living room. Sand
> dune ecology applies with changes.  I have heard of the Hayling Island
> location as well.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy Horton.
> Adur Valley Nature Notes
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:59:17 -0000
>    From: "John Stevens" <anax@...>
> Subject: Fragrant Orchid
>
> Hi!
>
> I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
> yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps
of
> Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
> now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
> the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
> form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
> publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.
>
> Any thoughts please folks?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
>
> P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
> or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
> must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
> no good reason?
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:35 -0000
>    From: "Jon" <insect@...>
> Subject: RE: Fragrant Orchid
>
> It seems that Ettlinger himself is also confused. In the 'Notes' he has
them
> as sub-species whereas in the 'Illustrations' he lists them as separate
> species.
>
> Jon.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Stevens [mailto:anax@...]
> Sent: 03 December 2000 18:59
> To: UKBotany
> Subject: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
> yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps
of
> Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
> now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
> the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
> form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
> publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.
>
> Any thoughts please folks?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
>
> P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
> or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
> must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
> no good reason?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:31:05 -0000
>    From: "Matt Stribley" <matt@...>
> Subject: Ferns in Cornwall
>
> Hi,
> I have uploaded some photos of ferns I took on Saturday here in Cornwall.
Included are filmy ferns and polypodies. I hope you enjoy.
> Matt Stribley
> Truro, Cornwall
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:34:10 -0000
>    From: "Matt Stribley" <matt@...>
> Subject: Re: Ferns in Cornwall
>
> Sorry forgot the link!
> http://www.stribley.redhotant.co.uk/ferns/
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Matt Stribley
>   To: UKBotany@egroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 12:31 AM
>   Subject: [UKBotany] Ferns in Cornwall
>
>
>   Hi,
>   I have uploaded some photos of ferns I took on Saturday here in
Cornwall. Included are filmy ferns and polypodies. I hope you enjoy.
>   Matt Stribley
>   Truro, Cornwall
>
>         eGroups Sponsor
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:01:45 -0500
>    From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
> Subject: Peucedenum officianale
>
> Hello,
>
> Peucedenum officianale
>
> A local example of the pressures imposed by housing development. A public
> inquiry is now considering an application for a large housing development
> immediately to the north of Faversham, Kent. The area to be developed is
> grazing marsh and water meadows and sustains a population of  Peucedenum
> officianale (Hog's Fennel), an extremely rare umbellifer found only in a
> handfull of other locations in England.
>
> Information received from Stephen Wood.
>
> Peucedenum officianale seems to only to be found in two locations in
> Britain and this is one of them.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy Horton
> Manager
> UK Environment and Planning Smart Group
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/UK_Environment-Planning
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:21:25 -0500
>    From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
> Subject: Sea Hog's Fennel
>
> Hello,
>
> Peucedenum officianale
>
> The only place in Sussex where the Sea Hog's Fennel has ever been found is
> Shoreham. The plant has been extinct for centuries, not necessarily from
> housing development but more likely from inundations of the sea.
>
> It may have been called Hog's Fennel.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy Horton.
> Adur Valley Nature Notes
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm
>
> including the Shoreham-by-Sea
> http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Shoreham.html
>  web pages.
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:22:45 -0000
>    From: "John Stevens" <anax@...>
> Subject: Re: Fragrant Orchid
>
> Ah, true but in the "Illustrations" he says that the ssps have "been
accepted
> as full species" since the publication of his "Notes".   This was actually
what
> prompted my posting.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon" <insect@...>
> To: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
> Sent: 03 December 2000 19:24
> Subject: RE: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid
>
>
> > It seems that Ettlinger himself is also confused. In the 'Notes' he has
them
> > as sub-species whereas in the 'Illustrations' he lists them as separate
> > species.
> >
> > Jon.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Stevens [mailto:anax@...]
> > Sent: 03 December 2000 18:59
> > To: UKBotany
> > Subject: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid
> >
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
> > yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps
of
> > Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
> > now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
> > the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the
nominate
> > form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
> > publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate
species.
> >
> > Any thoughts please folks?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
> > or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
> > must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
> > no good reason?
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:30:36 +0000
>    From: Vincent Smith <vince.smith@...>
> Subject: Re: Sea Hog's Fennel
>
> on 4/12/00 11:21 am, Andy Horton at bmlss@... wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Peucedenum officianale
>
> The only place in Sussex where the Sea Hog's Fennel has ever been found is
> Shoreham. The plant has been extinct for centuries, not necessarily from
> housing development but more likely from inundations of the sea.
>
> It may have been called Hog's Fennel.
>
> Hi,
>
> I've only ever heard of sites in Essex,Suffolk and Kent so that bit of
> information is particularly interesting. The plant was extensively used by
> herbalists so perhaps this could have been another reason for it
vanishing.
> Hog's fennel is also the sole food plant for a particular species of moth
> larvae - can't remember which at the moment. So if the plant disappears so
> does the moth,
>
> Cheers,
>
> Vince.
>
>
> --
> Join the Cornish Wildlife Mailing List:
> Send a blank e-mail to CornishWildlife-subscribe@egroups.com
> or from the web page at http://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/cornwall
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>

Hello
I am curious regarding the distribution of this herbal plant of the carrot
family; my book says coastal Europe and Britain except north and east of the
latter; is it considered rare ?. I have found it at Widewater Lagoon,
Lancing.
--
http://www.rayhamblett.cwc.net/Widewater/wiwater_1.htm#Samphire


ray

on 4/12/00 11:21 am, Andy Horton at bmlss@... wrote:

Hello,

Peucedenum officianale

The only place in Sussex where the Sea Hog's Fennel has ever been found is
Shoreham. The plant has been extinct for centuries, not necessarily from
housing development but more likely from inundations of the sea.

It may have been called Hog's Fennel.

Hi,

I've only ever heard of sites in Essex,Suffolk and Kent so that bit of
information is particularly interesting. The plant was extensively used by
herbalists so perhaps this could have been another reason for it vanishing.
Hog's fennel is also the sole food plant for a particular species of moth
larvae - can't remember which at the moment. So if the plant disappears so
does the moth,

Cheers,

Vince.


--
Join the Cornish Wildlife Mailing List:
Send a blank e-mail to CornishWildlife-subscribe@egroups.com
or from the web page at http://www.wildlifetrust.org.uk/cornwall

Ah, true but in the "Illustrations" he says that the ssps have "been accepted
as full species" since the publication of his "Notes".   This was actually what
prompted my posting.

Thanks

John


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon" <insect@...>
To: <UKBotany@egroups.com>
Sent: 03 December 2000 19:24
Subject: RE: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid


> It seems that Ettlinger himself is also confused. In the 'Notes' he has them
> as sub-species whereas in the 'Illustrations' he lists them as separate
> species.
>
> Jon.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Stevens [mailto:anax@...]
> Sent: 03 December 2000 18:59
> To: UKBotany
> Subject: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
> yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps of
> Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
> now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
> the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
> form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
> publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.
>
> Any thoughts please folks?
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
>
> P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
> or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
> must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
> no good reason?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

Hello,

Peucedenum officianale

The only place in Sussex where the Sea Hog's Fennel has ever been found is
Shoreham. The plant has been extinct for centuries, not necessarily from
housing development but more likely from inundations of the sea.

It may have been called Hog's Fennel.

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

including the Shoreham-by-Sea
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Shoreham.html
  web pages.

Hello,

Peucedenum officianale

A local example of the pressures imposed by housing development. A public
inquiry is now considering an application for a large housing development
immediately to the north of Faversham, Kent. The area to be developed is
grazing marsh and water meadows and sustains a population of  Peucedenum
officianale (Hog's Fennel), an extremely rare umbellifer found only in a
handfull of other locations in England.

Information received from Stephen Wood.

Peucedenum officianale seems to only to be found in two locations in
Britain and this is one of them.

Cheers

Andy Horton
Manager
UK Environment and Planning Smart Group
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/UK_Environment-Planning

----- Original Message -----

From: Matt Stribley

To: UKBotany@egroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 12:31 AM

Subject: [UKBotany] Ferns in Cornwall

Hi,

I have uploaded some photos of ferns I took on Saturday here in Cornwall. Included are filmy ferns and polypodies. I hope you enjoy.

Matt Stribley

Truro, Cornwall

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com

It seems that Ettlinger himself is also confused. In the 'Notes' he has them
as sub-species whereas in the 'Illustrations' he lists them as separate
species.

Jon.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stevens [mailto:anax@...]
Sent: 03 December 2000 18:59
To: UKBotany
Subject: [UKBotany] Fragrant Orchid


Hi!

I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps of
Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.

Any thoughts please folks?

Regards

John


P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
no good reason?



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hi!

I wonder if any members of this group can advise me whether there is
yet an "official" position on the specific status of the forms/vars/ssps of
Fragrant Orchid Gymnadenia conopsea? I ask because I various authors
now seem to differ widely (no surprise there then?) on the treatment of
the species. The historical view has been that G.conopsea is the nominate
form and that densiflora and borealis are ssps but the recent, excellent
publication by D.M.Turner Ettlinger treats them as three separate species.

Any thoughts please folks?

Regards

John


P.S. What's wrong with this group? It has been in existence for a month
or  more and I have only seen pleasant, helpful messages so far - there
must be someone out there who wants to be gratuitously offensive for
no good reason?

Hellon Sarah,

What are the most noticeable wild plants on the vegetated shingle at
Pagham?

Is there a web site I can put a link to?

The most noticeable at Shoreham beach are:

Yellow-horned Poppy, Red Valerian, Dock, Sea Kale, Silver Ragwort, Tree
Mallow, Viper's Bugloss, Spear-leaved Orache, Tamarisk, Opium Poppy, Sea
Campion, Rock Samphire.

Photographs at:

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/JASC3/SHINGLE_PLANTS.htm

Shoreham beach incomplete list at:

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shingle.htm  (Shingle Plants)

Excludes the Widewater Lagoon flood plain that has different flora:
Stonecrops, Thrift.

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/brackish.htm  (Widewater)

Childing Pink is a sand dune plant  (at Shoreham beach - is it the same at
Pagham?), and the area left is not much bigger than a living room. Sand
dune ecology applies with changes.  I have heard of the Hayling Island
location as well.

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

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----- Original Message -----

From: Vincent Smith

To: UKBotany@egroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 11:01 AM

Subject: Re: [UKBotany] Re: Childing pink

on 3/12/00 8:37 am, Sarah Patton at squirrel@... wrote:

Th plants are well spread across the shingle right around that area - it always seems ironic when something so rare is so prolific that you are almost tripping over it!
Interestingly, there were still plants in flower very late in the autumn - into October.
We have excellent vegetated shingle at Pagham and at least one guided walk to look at it in the summer. Anyone wanting further details should contact me at Pagham Harbour.

Hi,

Childing Pink has been found further West than Pagham Harbour (West Sussex) on Hayling Island (Hampshire). In 1997 the Common Fiddleneck (Amsinkia micrantha) an invader from North America was found for the first time. During 1998 whilst this invasive species was being surveyed several Childing Pink plants were found. I believe that before this it was thought to be confined to West Sussex. Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Cheers,

Vince.

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Th plants are well spread across the shingle right around that area - it always seems ironic when something so rare is so prolific that you are almost tripping over it!
Interestingly, there were still plants in flower very late in the autumn - into October.
We have excellent vegetated shingle at Pagham and at least one guided walk to look at it in the summer. Anyone wanting further details should contact me at Pagham Harbour.

Hi,

Childing Pink has been found further West than Pagham Harbour (West Sussex) on Hayling Island (Hampshire). In 1997 the Common Fiddleneck (Amsinkia micrantha) an invader from North America was found for the first time. During 1998 whilst this invasive species was being surveyed several Childing Pink plants were found. I believe that before this it was thought to be confined to West Sussex. Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Cheers,

Vince.

----- Original Message -----

From: Sarah J. Longrigg

To: UKBotany@egroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 11:09 PM

Subject: Re: [UKBotany] Re: Childing pink

Thank you, Sarah and Andy.

 

The plants I found were on the east side of Pagham Harbour.

 

Sarah Longrigg

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hello Sarah,

Shoreham Beach

You would have walked past Widewater Lagoon, where the location of the
Stonecrops is now completely submerged in brackish water.

Widewater Lagoon is at:
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/brackish.htm

Beeding Hill page has a few wild flowers, not all of which I can identify
(one is unknown):

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/beeding.htm

Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

The Smart Groups  ADUR VALLEY EFORUM  is at:
  http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/adur

Hello,

Thanks for the recommendations.

There is a photograph of the Childing Pink at:

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/childing.htm

Petrorhagia  nanteuilii

I have not checked the correct spelling. It is the double flower-heads that
are fascinating. Other locations known to me are Pagham, West Sussex, and
Hayling Island. Very difficult to photgraph because the small flower sways
in the slightest wind. Also, it is tricky to get the exposure right,
possibly because of its colour, which is not quite right in the
photographs, fractionally too garish, a criticism that I would not like in
a book.

Of course, the recommended book should have the latest scientific names. I
suspect the above ones is the latest. I have a memory that said the generic
name began with K. This must been replaced for some reason.

Shingle Plants:
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shingle.htm  (this was typed
incorrectly in the previous message)


Childing is now Sussex people would say it. It never occurred to me to be
otherwise.

My books say:

Kebble (no name)
Collins (Childling)

so I did not get Childing from a book.

or did I get it from:

Flora of Shoreham-by-Sea?  No, it says Childling:  this is just a list.

Perhaps from  Sussex Plant Atlas, which says Childing, But I have only just
got this book (from a secondhand shop, with pages missing.)  All give the
latest Petrorhagia  nanteuilii scientific name.

Good point though. I have live with lots of common names, but need to have
the latest and correct scientific one.


Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

The Smart Groups  ADUR VALLEY EFORUM  is at:
  http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/adur

Hello Andy

Have you looked at Stace's New Flora of the British Isles, it has a key for
the eyebrights as well as the common hybrids that are found and as far as I
can remember the upto date names. I am presently doing a postgraduate degree
on British Euphrasia and have spend many happy hours staring at them trying
to identify them down to species level. I am still on the ever continuing
learning curve but do now understand why identifying them can be difficult
but not impossible! Good luck with them, at least you have a few months yet
before they reappear next year


Best wishes

Graham French


From: Andy Horton <bmlss@...>
Reply-To: UKBotany@egroups.com
To: UK Botany <UKBotany@egroups.com>
Subject: [UKBotany] Wild Flower Guides (Britain)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:51:08 -0500

Hello,

Can anybody recommend a practical identification guide to the wild flowers
of Britain? Trees need not be included and I do need to separate the
Eyebrights. I would expect Childing Pink, Petrorhagia  nanteuilii, to be
included but not necessarily Starry Clover, Trifolium stellatum.

I don't know much about plants, only what I see locally. I like to put the
correct name to a Stonecrop etc. Not fanatical, because of the possibility
of garden escapes, hybrids etc., I could never get as keen on Angiosperms
as the macro-life of the sea.

Shingle Plants:
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shyingle.htm


Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

The Smart Groups  ADUR VALLEY EFORUM  is at:
   http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/adur


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com




________________________________________________________________________________\
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At Pagham Harbour we have the largest colony of Childing Pink - it is
prolific on the shingle on both sides of the harbour entrance
(although, please note that the Church Norton spit has no access
during the summer because of the breeding birds there.) I became
aware of a name change about 2 years ago. Up until then, we certainly
called it ChildLing Pink but I was picked up on this by our
Scientific Steering Committee! I don't dabble with scientific names,
so won't attempt to say which of those is accurate! As to
pronunication, we say CHILDing (as in young child), but perhaps there
may be a regional variation on this.

Sarah Patton - Warden, Pagham Harbour LNR.

Wild Flower Key definitely goes at the top of my list too - this is the one
book that I will always carry in the field when doing any serious botanising.

Tina Teearu wrote:

> My favourite always has been, and still is, Francis Rose "The Wild Flower
> Key".

I was most interested by Andy Horton's references to this plant,
both in regards to flower books that include it and his reference to
its presence on the beach at Shoreham-by-Sea.

A couple of years ago I went to visit an aunt (uninterested in botany
or conservation) who lives on the coast a good few miles west of
Shoreham. We went for a walk on the beach and I noticed these strange
flowers (which I did not mention to my aunt!). I later identified
them as Child(l)ing pink, and I read somewhere, I forget where, that
the location where I found them was one of only two sites in Britain.
This gave me an interest in this plant.

What now baffles me is its accurate name. Andy Horton and BMLSS give
this as  "Childing Pink, Petrorhagia  nanteuilii". I have
consulted flower books I have in my possession and have come up with
an unbelievable number of variants as follows:

1955 M/F Childling Kohlrauschia prolifera
1965 KM -     P. nanteuilii / Kohlrauschia prolifera etc
1974 FFB Childling P. nanteulii / nanteullii
1978 F atlas -         P. prolifera
1981 Rose Childling  Kohlrauschia (P.) nanteulii
1983 GS Childling P. nanteuilii / nanteulii
1989 B/GW Childing P. nanteulii

Thus we have childling/childing and nanteulii/ nanteuilii/ nanteullii
Is it possible to know which of all these variants is correct? It
seems to me that typing errors have probably become accepted through
repetition. I assume that Kohlrauschia is an older name and that the
separation from K./P./ prolifera is rather recent? It is a separate
species in more recent sources.

Also, what is the correct pronunciation? child -(l)ing (as in young
child)  or chilled-(l)ing?

List of  books referred to above:
1955 - McClintock & Fitter - Collins pocket guide to wild flowers
1965 - Keeble Martin - Concise British flora in colour
1974 - Fitter/Fitter/Blamey - Wild flowers of Britain & Northern
Europe
1978 - Fitter - Atlas of wild flowers of Britain & Northern Europe
1981 - Rose - Wild flower key, British Isles & North West Europe
1983 - Garrard & Streeter - Wild Flowers of the British Isles
1989 - Blamey/Grey Wilson - Illustrated flora of Britain & Northern
Europe

Sarah Longrigg

My favourite always has been, and still is, Francis Rose "The Wild Flower
Key".  The Collins identification guide is similar, but I find the colours
in the pictures somewhat garish compared with real life and would always
recommend Rose as the first choice.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Horton [mailto:BMLSS@...]
Sent: 30 November 2000 20:51
To: UK Botany
Subject: [UKBotany] Wild Flower Guides (Britain)


Hello,

Can anybody recommend a practical identification guide to the wild flowers
of Britain? Trees need not be included and I do need to separate the
Eyebrights. I would expect Childing Pink, Petrorhagia  nanteuilii, to be
included but not necessarily Starry Clover, Trifolium stellatum.

I don't know much about plants, only what I see locally. I like to put the
correct name to a Stonecrop etc. Not fanatical, because of the possibility
of garden escapes, hybrids etc., I could never get as keen on Angiosperms
as the macro-life of the sea.

Shingle Plants:
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shyingle.htm


Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

The Smart Groups  ADUR VALLEY EFORUM  is at:
  http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/adur


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
UKBotany-unsubscribe@egroups.com

on 30/11/00 8:51 pm, Andy Horton at bmlss@... wrote:

Hello,

Can anybody recommend a practical identification guide to the wild flowers
of Britain? Trees need not be included and I do need to separate the
Eyebrights. I would expect Childing Pink, Petrorhagia  nanteuilii, to be
included but not necessarily Starry Clover, Trifolium stellatum.

Hi Andy,

The Wild Flower Key By Francis Rose.Published Frederick Warne.
ISBN 07233224196 is the one to get for British plant ID.It has keys to those
plants that aren't in flower which is very useful.
The Eyebrights (Euphrasia) require a specialist key.About 25 spp have been
recorded in the British Isles - Kew should be able to give you the name of
what you need,

Cheers,

Vince.


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Send a blank e-mail to CornishWildlife-subscribe@egroups.com
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Hello,

Can anybody recommend a practical identification guide to the wild flowers
of Britain? Trees need not be included and I do need to separate the
Eyebrights. I would expect Childing Pink, Petrorhagia  nanteuilii, to be
included but not necessarily Starry Clover, Trifolium stellatum.

I don't know much about plants, only what I see locally. I like to put the
correct name to a Stonecrop etc. Not fanatical, because of the possibility
of garden escapes, hybrids etc., I could never get as keen on Angiosperms
as the macro-life of the sea.

Shingle Plants:
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shyingle.htm


Cheers

Andy Horton.
Adur Valley Nature Notes
http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/Adur-6.htm

The Smart Groups  ADUR VALLEY EFORUM  is at:
  http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/adur

Welcome to UKBotany everyone - I'm very pleased by the number of
subscriptions I've had - clearly there was a big gap in the range of
egroups waiting to be filled.

I imagine things will be a little quiet postings-wise until the spring,
but to keep us ticking over (inspired by a thread on the UKMoths group)
I thought I'd kick off a discussion on plants that are flowering later
than they should be.

At Berrow Dunes, on the Somerset coast on 19 Nov, Sea Rocket was still
in flower (The Wild Flower Key gives Jun-Sep as the flowering period).

What things have other people seen in flower recently that should bee
well over by now?

Steve Preddy, UKBotany List Manager

Hello,

File Page for Wildlife Webmasters  (Europe only)

For National Wildlife Sites

This is the page to enter details of you wildlife web homepage, for
organisations and enthusiasts with helpful information filled pages on the
wildlife of the British Isles. Details of efora should also be entered in
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Post :UK_Environment-Planning@...
Post to Manager: UK_Environment-Planning-owner@...

Hello,

UK Environment & Planning
Eforum for discussion of general environmental topics, planning issues and
quality of life issues in the United Kingdom, including planning procedures
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The discussion excludes international environmental issues, because these
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The Document Vault will contain links to other efora on related subjects
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Andy Horton (Manager)

This is a Smart Groups eforum. I thought for an eforum that deals with
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The starting date envisaged for messages etc. is 1 December 2000.

This best way to join is to go the UK Environment & Planning Smart Group
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Cheers

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Hello,

For some shingle plants of the shore go to:

http://cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/BMLSS/shingle.htm

including a rare clover. The page contains links for more information and
pictures. Click on the underlined text.

Cheers

Andy Horton
British Marine Life Study Society
Mailto:bmlss@...
(EMail messages are not monitored by third parties.)
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Marine Wildlife of the North-east Atlantic Ocean Smart Group (commenced 1
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