JCT: I have a recurring problem. People invited me to post
to other groups they belong to, I suppose hoping to promote
discussion with their friends there, and the question of
silencing me inevitable comes up for several reasons:

1) Richard Lake, CraftyBitch and their his gang of saboteurs
may have joined the group to complain to the moderators
hoping they'll fall for it an become their censors; many do.

2) moderators may not see the relevance that the inviting
member did, (perhaps people should ask their controller's
permission before inviting anyone else to join from now on)
and the moderators start censoring it as spam except that
news, by its nature, cannot be spam but as long as they
don't see relevance, then they decide for the group by their
refusal to allow the post.

So it's inevitable that censorship happens in two forms:

1) the weaker moderators just start deleting the posts
without telling their members what they did and then delete
the complaints so that their members don't find out either;

2) the better ones as their members for guidance because
they know they're treading on dangerous ground.
Unfortunately, it's the nice ethical ones who end up being
the recipients of my objections while the lesser ones escape
by suppressing all further input to the group.

I've been invited to:

Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 06:01:52 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the peoplewhocomplainalot group

Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 06:23:48 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the politicalevents group

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:52:35 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the The_Pagan_Way group

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:31:12 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the toesecon group

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:31:12 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the toesecon group

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:23:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Invitation to join the rrnd group

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:37:20 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the Isis-House group

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:26:43 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the USDemocrat2 group

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:19:27 -0400
Subject: John you are invited to join our celebration
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Debate_and_More/

JCT: I send out a standard introduction:

TURMEL: Intro to "The Engineer"

I'm in the Guinness Book of Records for running in
the most elections contested.
In the Great Canadian Character Anthology
Wrote Resolution C6 of the U.N. Millennium Declaration
Make my living as a Professional Poker Player known as
the TajProfessor for the 5 years I was at the Tah Mahal
in Atlantic City.

I write about my political battles to:
abolish gambling prohibition
abolish drug prohibition
abolish sex prohibition
abolish interest via service charge UNILETS banking system.

In 1993, I founded the anti-debt-slavery Abolitionist
Party of Canada which got me an invite to the Millennium
Assembly where my UNILETS interest-free time-based currency
resolution C6 to governments was adopted.

I preface messages with TURMEL to make my posts easy to
catch or duck.

USENET groups can.politics, alt.fan.john-turmel get all my
posts on all topics. http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel
does too.

I also post everything to the turmel@yahoogroups.com which
can be joined with a blank email sent to:
turmel-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Archives: http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/messages
Stay tuned

JCT: And then I add them to either pro-medpot or anti-
usury or both "groups" distribution lists for news of my
political, legal and economic anti-genocide battles with as
many funny punch lines as I can. How else to but with humour
to talk about poverty, dying people denied the best
medicine and Bush League wars.

What's interesting is that I sometimes find myself quietly
censored on lists that I've been posting to for a long time.
Some examples:

MEDPOT lists that no longer accept my medpot battles:
<marijuana@...>
<hempsa-news@yahoogroups.com>
<conservativesformarijuanalegalization@yahoogroups.com>
<forgodandcountry@yahoogroups.com>
<bitchpissandmoan@yahoogroups.com>
<freehempinak@yahoogroups.com>
<smartgroup2@yahoogroups.com>
<parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com>

Imagine, Richard Lake and his kennel crew got
"parentsendingprohibition" to ban my posts and I'm the only
politician that I know of arguing kids have a right to the
best relief sedation too. Listen in to my 2-hours on CFRA at
http://www.cfra.com tonight at 5pm to hear what you've
probably never heard argued before and then consider that
the moderator of parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
silenced me without telling his members what he did and
now they're missing it. Of course, that's the whole purpose
of Richard and his crew of complainers and it often works.
Especially when moderators censor and then are so ashamed
they have to continue to censor the discussion of their
censorship.

MONEY REFORM lists that no longer accept my pro-LETS anti-
usury posts:

econ-lets@somewhere in the UK
ekonomi-syariah@yahoogroups.com,
islamic_banking@yahoogroups.com,

What's sad are the two Islamic Banking groups. I have
challenged that the LETS is a better Islamic banking model
than the Islamic banking model they are using, pointing out
that the Islamic Party of Great Britain has endorsed LETS as
the best form of interest-free Islamic banking. So what do
they do? Delve further into the better model? No, censor the
competition away. Just like top anti-globalization groups
are peopled by Judases to their movements, it looks that
the same kind of moles are in the Islamic Banking movement
too. People not interested in the best for their group.

And now on to my responses to the moderators who contacted
me about their problems:

<<TURMEL: Please... Why?

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:51:54 -0400 (EDT)
>From: LillianOwl@...
>Subject: Please....
>To: TURMEL@...

L: Hon, please... I have requested on the list that you post
these legal things in the files area, and then just
summarize or inform us on the list that you have posted the
file.

JCT: Why? Other than making me create a second document
announcing the first, and making me go to the files area to
specifically upload the first rather than just add your
messages address to my mailing list, which would make the
work-load too steep and I'd drop your group, how is having
my posts in the file section instead of the messages section
in any way an impediment to you and your readers?

L: Please don't post these to the main list anymore. I'm not
opposed to efforts to legalize medical use of marijuana --
in fact, I'm all for it! It's just kind of off-topic for the
list, and I would really appreciate it if you would put it
in the FILES section instead of the main list. BB,
LilCo-owner and Moderator Isis-House

JCT: Say the word that it's important that I do the extra
work because you have some kind of advantage in having my
posts in files rather than messages and I'll drop you from
my list with no problem. But please lets those of your
readers who were interested in what they've heard so far
from the only Guinness Record holder on your list that
they'll have to look elsewhere from my legal stuff.

But once you've been dropped from my list, I do bet you'll
miss out on my other angles yet. Had I only had the chance
to start perhaps with my Biblical poetic exegesis bringing
Bhuddism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam together, maybe
their goodness would have been a link to Isis-House. I'm
sorry that my concentration on medpot at this moment made me
appear a one-facet writer so you never had a taste of other
ideas that would have permitted you to tolerate more readily
my current dutiful devotion to medpot posts. It's not that
I prefer writing about legal medpot battles when I could be
writing about the Heaven on Earth that's being engineered.
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombible.htm

Look. I typed up 61 pages of a government Factum for the
information of your readers. And you also want me to write
up a special intro and make a special trip to your group to
file it? What if I had to that for all my groups? Sorry.
Can't be done.

But I see don't see the harm in my posts being complete
within the messages section as compared to being filed over
in files. Readers see the same titles in Message whether
there's the full messages attached or not. How does putting
it in files help you?

Censor me and you lose me, it's as simple as that.
And that's what it is if you do it without informing your
readers. So please, let them know the Turmel show's moving
and you'll get no more static out of me.
>>

> From: LillianOwl@...
> To: Isis-House@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Isis-House] TURMEL: Please... Why?

LO: I don't understand your hostility. I truly don't.

JCT: I am probably the most censored politician in the
world. They even had to tamper with resolution C6 to
governments in the UN Millennium Declaration. So it's tough
not to react vehemently when the end result will be
discontinuation of my input.

LO: I've been nothing but polite to you, and I'm not trying
to censor you, as I've already stated. As co-moderator / co-
owner, I'm just making reasonable requests in the hope of
saving bandwidth on the list.

JCT: I know and I do appreciate that you're not one of the
baddies. A member wrote that he felt that my max 30k posts
took up too much of his mailbox though even free Yahoo
mailboxes hold 4,000k. I just could not empathize with his
concern over 1/133rd of his space and the damage to his
digit by having to delete one or two posts a day. And
considering the megabyte media files that get moved around,
my little 30k contributions are a negligible incursion on
bandwidth.

LO: We ran out of room on other lists; I don't want to see
all the posting room eaten up. Your posts are extremely
long.

JCT: They are never more than 10 pages. What? No think
pieces allowed? Only chit-chat? And it is news, never
repetition.

LO: To me, your posts are unintelligible because I'm not a
lawyer. They make very little sense to me, and they seem off-
topic.

JCT: And yet lots of non-lawyers love reading novels or
watching shows on TV about fictional law so here'sa chance
to read actual law going on. Surely the person who invited
me here is reading it and hoping to promote discussions
about it within this group. Why else would they invite me
but that they are looking for this topic?

LO: I think it's more than generous to offer you space in
the files section for these off-topic documents;
incidentally, the files section is not an unlimited space
either, as Will and I have found out to our great discomfort
in the past.

JCT: If I did that, then why post it in your files anyway?
Why not just mention that the article is at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/xxx instead of
http://yahoogroups.com/group/isis-house/files/message/xxx

The whole purpose it to get to your members' mailbox so they
don't have to go looking. If they're not interested, a
single digit delete and it's gone.

LO: This is not a political list. To my knowledge, it's not
populated with lawyers. It's a metaphysical list. As far as
people on this list craving your info, as far as I know, I
have been the only one to respond to them at all, at least
on-list.

JCT: Surely your understanding of the metaphysical world
will work better if your understanding of the real world is
right. And I'd bet the good souls in the Gaia are all
rooting for The Engineer to abolish the root of poverty so
their progeny don't have to go through the same debt slavery
most of them did. Very few "masters" who collected in with
the "slaves who paid" in Heaven.

LO: Extra work??? What extra work? I post things to the
files section all the time.

JCT: I publish to almost 100 lists with 1 press of the
"send" button. Would you have me visit each one to upload a
file and then publish a notice to those 100 lists? That's
what I mean by so much work if I could not just add your
group to my distribution list that I would have to drop
you.

LO: It's simply a matter of cut and paste. In fact, within
the functions of the files section, you have an automatic
option of having the list notified of the placement of the
new file, without any further effort from you.

JCT: It's still a hundred cuts and pastes.

LO: I was actually hoping that if you summarized your work,
I might understand it, and maybe other people here would,
too. So much for your theory that I am "censoring" you.

JCT: I'm pleased to note that you have no stopped any of my
later posts which is also why I don't mind taking the time
to answer our objections.

LO: I think this issue is extremely important. Which is why
I am willing to meet you halfway. But if you are unwilling
to work with the people who own and run this list, then by
all means, you are free to unsubscribe. Which means that
essentially you are censoring yourself, when you have been
offered an otherwise perfectly good forum.

JCT: Okay, so I'm asking to be treated a little special
since my stuff happens to be a little special. I hope you
can appreciate that I'm not forcing you to it my way because
I'm a boor but just that I really do not have the time to
do it your way, no matter how much better. I don't want to
drop your group and so I hope you judge my contributions
worth the aggravation of asking for special dispensation.

LO: Sorry you have misunderstood me so horribly. I hope you
reconsider. BB, Lil

JCT: If you're really worried about keeping your old
archives and not losing the old as the new comes in, just
start isis-house2 and move the membership list. Yahoo
permits it and then there is no worry about losing archives
nor of my using too much bandwidth.

Then I got some trouble at the debate_and_more group where
the moderator was upset at me for having drawn complainants.
Richard, are you and craftybitch Cher on this group? Whoever
you are, you sure got the moderator mad at me:

MY FIRST RESPONSE

>Okay. That's about enough. If you are not going to
>participate in the group, or engage in any of the debate
>brought about by your posts, please stop sending them. We
>do not appreciate spammers. kareen
>(moderator, Debate and More)

Jct: Lady, this is news. I have to type up 61 pages
of government factum, do another major factum, now work on
another Appeal Book and Factum and you tell me to hop to it
in responding to your comments. My responses often come
days, even weeks, later. But I'm sorry but I've now lost
interest in doing so. Go ahead and censor it if quick
response to you is a requirement but don't ask me to stop
sending. You decided for your whole group. Please. I don't
want to belong to a censored group anyway. So censor and
I'll be happy to be gone with my news you have labelled
spam.

MY SECOND RESPONSE

<<
#2 Stop the spam

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
>From: kareen_lambert@... (kareen lambert)
>Subject: Re: Stop the spam
>To: TURMEL@...

KL: One of the points of this group is that posts be
pertinent to those participating in the group. As a
moderator I have to field complaints from other group
members over posts that are cluttering up their in-boxes for
no apparent reason.

JCT: This problem keeps cropping up. These people don't want
to read it and they don't want other people to read it and
they've asked you to censor everyone's information. Right.

Keep in mind, there are a crew of people who follow
everywhere I am invited to post to join and then complain.
Go take a quick look at the subscription dates of your
complainers and maybe you'll find that some are brand new.

Nevertheless, these people are asking you to censor what
the other members get to read. Anyone interested loses the
feed because others decided they didn't want them reading
what the objectors didn't want to read.

Please understand what kind of people these are. I wish
you'd publish their complaints for the whole group and let
them help you decide if the group needs their menus censored
by these people.

I think it's a pretty sick individual who needs to have
something he doesn't have to read censored so others can't
read it too. Then again, don't forget the people dogging me
everywhere I go.

KL: Your posts were brought to my attention three days ago,
and an attempt was made to engage you in honest debate. I
apologize if I have offended you, as it is not intended as a
personal attack, but the group seems largely uninterested in
reading through your posts, and you seemed uninterested in
debating them.

JCT: What if I took a break? Or I was too busy? Or I just
didn't want to engage in that topic? Where does it say I
have to respond and where is there a time limit?

The people who have put you in this position are sick.
Still, it's amazing how many moderators have fallen for it
and become the pawn of the censors without even letting
their groups know what they did.

KL: You stood out as fitting the bill for a typical spammer.
We get lots of them, and you're not the first person we've
had to ask to stop.

JCT: You label my news spam. I think you're wrong.

KL: I would rather discuss it openly with you than take the
action that *was* recommended, which was to simply block
you.

JCT: Of course they would recommend that. No one in your
group finds out that you censored their material. They just
think I disappeared without even realizing that the back-
room boys got you to do the dirty deed and then have to hide
it because you're probably an not an evil person into
censorship and so you know it's a dirty deed. But you want
to be nice to all these nice complainers.

They are not nice people. Anyone who impose their will on
others, in secret, is bad news. Let them beef in public.
They can't. They need to to their dirty work in the
background and they need to find a nice moderator who
assumes the complainers are nice people too. They are not.
They are the worst undemocratic people and the sooner you
fess up who they are to the group and what they made you do,
the better you'll feel.

KL: As of yet, from what I have been told (I was absent for
a while) you have yet to introduce yourself to the group, or
explain your purpose in sending these posts. I'm sure there
are many tha

JCT: I sent an introduction, told people what to expect,
that's why you should publish this and let the democrats in
the group support you in resisting the background censors
who follow me around.

Keep in mind, my LETS has saved thousands of children's
lives and my UNILETS will end poverty on the planet so you
can bet my opposition is rather sophisticated.

But I've caught them joining groups just to complain.
So always keep in mind they are not offending just me but
they are offending the other members of group by getting you
to censor their news by convincing you news can be spam.

And the quicker you let it through, the better you'll feel.
Especially when do my regular censorship report on group
moderators who fell for the background urgings to
censorship and had to hide it by censoring the complaints.

Finally consider the time they've made me waste trying to
keep a unique news feed alive to your members. I've been
invited to write to 5 groups in the last 2 weeks and you're
the second tonight to inform me of complaints. So keep in
mind that the person who invited me is getting shafted if
you censor my posts.
>>

JCT: It obviously didn't impress:

>From: kareen_lambert
>Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:30 am
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: #2 Stop the spam
>To: <Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com>

Okay, that does it......whoever it is in here who is 'the
man' attempting to 'keep down' this pro-pot propoganda,
show yourselves at once! Enough stalking this poor man
around the net! Sorry, I tend to not take the whole
conspiracy theory thing too seriously. Been at this a
little too long I guess. Oh well. kareen

JCT: You're lucky Richard that the lady doesn't believe that
you and the bitchcraft join groups to get me barred. Why
don't you speak up and take credit? Oops, as long as people
don't take your conspiracy theory seriously, it's easier to
get away with with future moderators.

Sorry, kareen, but this is no bull. I'm a debt-slave
politician who is fighting for the debt slaves in ways that
are effective. Don't you think the masters aren't trying to
impede my progress? Even the UN had to tamper with the
Millennium Declaration to delete the word UNILETS before it
reached the world leaders who would have recognized the word
LETS from their own nations but who may not have recognized
"time-based currency" as such. I've been the victim of such
magnificent opposition from the highest sources that I can't
blame you for disbelieving that my claim to not being just
your ordinary character, even if I am in the Great Canadian
Character Anthology and Guinness Book of Records and gave
the UN Millennium speech on anti-poverty banking. Well,
maybe I can blame you for disbelieving. Those are pretty
non-standard credentials, aren't they? Well you can believe
that the opposition is out in full force because everyone of
my shots is always on goal.

And to save the day, defending:

>To: <Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Domenic" <dferrante@w...>
>Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:33 am
>Subject: Re: [Debate_and_More] Re: Stop the spam

Hello......I am new here, but a LONG time friend of Allan's,
and, yes, a liberal. My opinion is that if this group is
censored, I am out of here. This was the first post that I
looked at, and, it does NOT make a good impression on me, as
I don't stay at groups that are censored, and, in fact, have
outright left groups when members were censored.

I can't seem to find the original post to verify that this
is censorship. However, if I see someone getting lambasted
for NOT responding quick enough, this is NOT the group for
me, as I teach 4 days per week, one day at an inner city
Lutheran school and the other three at a private dance
studio, my house is on the market, I am trying to find a new
bigger house, I have three kids, ages 5, 10, and 14, I also
have a HUGE white Siberian Husky, I am attempting to also
locate a good facility to open my own dance studio (as I am
sick and tired of people telling me what to do when I really
DO know better)

I am vice president of the board of directors for The
Milwaukee Dance Connection, a professional contemporary
modern dance company, and I am VERY involved with both my
family and my in laws. One more thing, I will be gone for 7
days chaperoning my 4th grade son's field trip to
Williamsburg, VA.

So, are quick responses necessary to stay on this board or
not? If so, let me know now and I won't waste any more of
anyone else's time. Amie

P.S. The short answer is that censorship, in a forum that is
relatively "free" would be a bad thing. Too many
restrictions are being put on speech these days, and,
regardless of your political leanings, freedom of speech,
ala Tom Paine's Common Sense, is a cornerstone of the US,
my country.
===

>From: kareen_lambert
>Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:40 am
>Subject: Re: Stop the spam

hello amie, nice to hear from you.

No, this is not an attempt at censoring him. He's jumping to
conclusions, and no, speedy replies and constant
participation are not required. But, the group tends to look
poorly on spamming. Posting long articles when one has no
intention of debating them or participating in the group in
any manner takes up space. His posts had been responded to
in an attempt to strike up debate, and those responses had
been ignored, and as I said, he was looking like your basic
spammer. kareen

JCT: I'm happy to point out that kareen hasn't stopped any
of my posts but the fact I may not be able to respond to
discussion should not qualify my news as spam. News can
never be spam as long as it's related to the topic.
Especially in a group called debate_and_more.

MY THIRD RESPONSE:

Turmel: Visit to Kingston

>From: Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:51:56 -0000
>From: kareen_lambert
>Subject: Re: Turmel: Visit to Kingston

KL: so what are you doing, just sending us all of your
impertinent e-mails now too? is this some bizarre revenge?
At least the pro-pot stuff had debatable issues in it.
kareen

JCT: So the group have received two announcements of when
I'll be speaking on radio and live in Kingston. Is there any
problem with that?

Even though you aren't interested, are you proclaiming that
no one else has a right to be interested either?

Excuse me if this ain't philosophy. It's social engineering
news. If some people want to comment on what's "going on,"
fine. If not, fine. And if I only want to provide fodder for
discussion but no more, am I going to get a hassle every
time? Why don't you pretend I'm talking to the people who
invited me and others who may have become interested and
that I'm not saying anything of interest for you. No one
says you have to read all messages just because you're
the moderator. I moderate a dozen lists and I can't read
them all.

So another bunch of time wasted fighting off the complaints
to moderators by people who don't want others reading what
they don't want to read.

Final point, did you look to see if the complainants had
just recently joined. I'd love to catch them at it again.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669