THE PAGAN WAY
http://yahoogroups.com/group/the_pagan_way
-------------------------------------------

JCT: I'd hoped pagans would prove better than this:

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:10:49 +0000
>From: amberadept@... ("Rev. Sir Raymond E. Nieman D.D. HKOS")
>Subject: Message not approved: TURMEL: Censorship battles:
>To: TURMEL@...
Post rejected. See accompanying email for details.
=====

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:58:51 -0400
>From: amberadept@... (Amber Adept)
>Subject: Reason for post rejection.
>To: TURMEL@...

AA: Ok, I personally rejected your three other posts because
they were not relevant to anything being discussed within
the group and I had no idea what in the 7 hells you were
talking about. Insulting my staff and I isn't going to fly
with me either.I'll address your concerns one by one so,
perhaps you'll get the point.

JCT: I have no doubt you'll be able to offer the loftiest
reasons for your readers not getting the info.

AA: Your posts are rejected because of inappropriate or
incomprehensible content. I have a thing, call me funny that
way, about people actually making sense on my lists.

JCT: Incomprehensible to whom? Oh, to you? What if you're
the slowest one in the group? And, to those people who have
comprehended my writings in the past, you now appear to be
an uncomprehending person who is in control of the debate.
And who wants to have their debate limited to the
capabilities of the slowest in the group?
Imagine, finding incomprehensible my posts on medpot or
usury. Maybe you should go out and get a science degree like
me and then maybe things would be more comprehensible to
you. Then again, if you couldn't follow this so far, I doubt
you could pass any engineering course.

> 1) Richard Lake, CraftyBitch and their his gang of
> saboteurs may have joined the group to complain to the
> moderators hoping they'll fall for it an become their
> censors; many do.

AA:I don't know these people, never chatted or had any
contact with them and wouldn't have listened if I did.

JCT: Of course I didn't expect you to know the culprits who
did it on other lists. I only named them to assure you this
kind of stuff happens. So why do you have to know who they
are to appreciate what they did?

AA: I give everybody here lots of rope. They're free to pull
themselves up with it or hang themselves. That choice is
theirs. I do not, nor does my staff, participate in any way
with trans-group feuds. Many people here, should you
actually get to the point of dropping the chip on your
shoulder, will attest to that. Everybody gets a fresh start
here. If they screw up, they screw up. It's on their own
heads.

JCT: You didn't give me much rope before you judged what you
had no background about incomprehensible.

> 2) moderators may not see the relevance that the inviting
> member did,

AA: I'm the one who invited you. Nobody else has the option.
I'm also the one who rejected your posts. As for the content
of said posts, if I read it and don't have clue one what
you're talking about, I reject it. Off topic is one thing.
Off planet is another.

JCT: I only talk about promotion of legal cannabis and the
abolition of interest, two important world-changing issues.
Why is discussion of either off planet? Just because you
can't stay with the crowd on this planet.

AA: As I'm the list OWNER, my staff has nothing to do with
this save asking me to read said posts.

> 2) the better ones as their members for guidance because

AA: I don't run a Democracy here. I am the final arbiter in
all such matters. I rejected your posts for a valid reason.
They were incomprehensible.

JCT: Because you can't see, no one else can see too?

AA: As for this one, it's flat out insulting. I don't
tolerate that either, I'm afraid.

JCT: Again, just because some don't have the education to
stay with me doesn't mean you should be censoring what your
brighter members can follow. I know it must be painful for
someone with an ego like you who thinks you're bright enough
to judge for everyone else to now find out that you're a few
watts short of a bulb when you run up against someone like
me with not only a superior education but also a superior
intellect. Your inability to stay with me sadly identifies
you as an inferior intellect. But is it fair to assume the
rest of your members are as uncomprehending as you?

> I've been invited to...

AA: Ok, obviously you've had this conversation for those
people as well.

JCT: That was the purpose of the post on censorship that you
censored, so you'd know the dangers.

AA: An intro is fine, however, and I'm going to go back to
my own archives and show you each post I rejected,
especially given that length doesn't seem to be a problem
here.

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:21:05 -0400
>From: Cleafloo@... ("Leafloor, Christopher")
>Subject: RE: Turmel: Factum emailled?
>To: TURMEL@...
>Cc: cmichael@... ("Michaelson, Croft"),

AA: Ok, the above was rejected because it appears to be an
email to someone named John and has no relevance to any of
the topics on this list.

JCT: Okay this was about the government creating efiles for
themselves and the courts but not for laymen like us suing
them. I let them know I wanted the legal system officially
changed. Of course, if you'd read any older archives or
waited for more developments in this case, you might have
grasped the relevance but with censorship, neither you nor
your readers will ever find out the link. But I'd guess
working to fix the legal system within the medpot fight
would be of no interest to you. But why do you assume it has
to be of no interest to everyone else on your list? The
government said that it was refusing to give the public
something that it could give the public and I've declared
that I, John C. Public, want it and I'm going to go after
it. What's so hard to understand? I think everyone will
benefit if I get it. And of course, when I do make my motion
to have it, you'll hear about it and you'll then know what's
at stake. But the people on your group whose info you
censored won't know.

>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:28:54 -0400
>From: rdpriest@... (Richard Priestman)
>Subject: a visit to Kingston
>To: TURMEL@... (John C Turmel)
>Cc: matovic@... (Darko Matovic)

AA: This was another personal email and I saw no reason to
approve it. Again, it had no relevance to my list and
appeared to be a personal email.

JCT: The title informs you that it is an announcement of a
speaking engagement for those of your members in that area
who might like to to come. Was that incomprehensible to you
too? Are invitations to talks not allowed?

AA: The rest appeared to be either interviews or court pleas
or whatever.

JCT: That's right. 1) You censored a debate between a medpot
advocate and two police officers. And of course, 2) the
fight to legalize medpot in the Quebec courts was also
censored. If The_Pagan_Way is not interest in social
reforms, it doesn't sound like a philosophy that can
survive.

AA: They were rejected because they had no relevance to any
topic currently being discussed.

JCT: I did not know we were not allowed to start new topics.
Why don't you announce that only topics you have already
raised will be open and warn us that trying to speak of
anything else on your list is verboten.

AA: You're into, had I recognized it at such, I would have
let through. However, having read the first two and then
getting that, I simply rejected it in hopes that you would
email me privately and explain the for the others.

JCT: Oh, censorship comes to you that casually, does it? I'm
not sure what the third one that should have gotten through
was but it does highlight how an itchy censor's finger can
make mistakes.

I hope you're not representative of your pagan religion. You
sure play fast and loose with freedom of speech. Oh that's
right, the speech has to he on what you say it's got to be
on. I always hoped pagans had better ethics. And you're the
owner! Wow.

Maybe what we heard about pagans throughout history is true.
Yet, "I just deleted you to make you come speak to me" is
the most original reason for censorship I've encountered.
And you're an Internet representative of the kind of
treatment we can receive from pagans. I think that attitude
brings your religion into disrepute.

AA: Look, here's the thing... My list is not for you to
promote your personal agenda.

JCT: Why not? Is it to promote yours? Whose? And it's my
public agenda. These are two very public issues you have
censored discussion of. Are you really saying that pagans
have no interest in the outcomes of my two issues?

AA: Had you read the invitation, or the group rules, you'd
know that.

JCT: So announce, This is not for your agenda, it's for
mine" in your group's home page now that you've come forward
so forcefully.

AA: I also don't need, want, or desire to know every list
your on, have been banned from, and whatever else was in the
20 pages I just deleted.

Now, if you an event going on that you want to advertise,
fine, one ad is acceptable. That's the sum of the tolerance
that I have here. At over 100 posts a day, I can't afford
any more than that. 90% of the people who leave, leave
because of volume. I am not adding to that for someone's
personal fight to use pot or whatever else you're fighting
for.

JCT: Oh, like all people are always making so many such
announcements that you'll be swamped? Be realistic. There
aren't too many other political engineers on the Internet
that I know of.

AA: I have no problem if you choose to post about things
that are on topic.

JCT: Yes, but if you don't see the relevance to the topic,
then it gets banned. And people don't get the background
with only some of the posts getting through. Half the show,
so to speak.

AA: I have no problem if you want to repost your
introduction, provided it's not inflammatory. What I do have
a problem with and, this is exactly WHY I moderate new
members, is people posting inflammatory statements because
they feel they've been wronged when, in fact, all I've done
is uphold the rules of this list.

JCT: No, I don't have time to repost things. If someone ever
asks, you can just explain to them what you didn't let
through. And it doesn't matter too much whether you censor
this too, your reasons are going to the other lists as an
example of the dangers of moderation out of control.

But sadly, if you're typical of the Pagan religion, no
thanks. If you don't see how fighting for God's Healthiest
Herb should be part of the Pagan religion, how fighting
against God's greatest bane, usury, the genocide of the poor
by removal of life-support tickets (money) should be part of
the Pagan religion, especially when the usury ban is part of
so many good ones like Bhuddism, Judaism, Christianity and
Islam, then your religion has no solutions and your attitude
demonstrates that you're not interested in new alternatives.
Ignorance is not knowing the truth and the stupidity to
wanting to stay that way.

AA: I neither know, nor care about any court battles
involving marijuana use, or what lists your on, or any of
the other people to discuss issues directly related to Pagan
lifestyle, our history, etc. We have quite a range of topics
and reading an email version of a court plea against the
Queen isn't part of that.

JCT: I didn't know the other pagans were not allowed to know
or care about any court battles involving marijuana use.
Sure, my posts on poverty and prohibition of the best
medicine marijuana, are not Pagan issues. Well, you just
keep censoring them so that any members who do go elsewhere
will know that you had to delete that post they read
elsewhere on Timedollars saving babies lives in El Paso
Texas. And they'll know you killed stories on the fight to
save their them and their children from the busts of
prohibition. They'll know every post you keep zapping.

AA:I barely allow cross posting, because of relevance.

JCT: I've heard the argument before. See the metatoes
moderator's line at the bottom that because it is highly
cross-posted, it must not be relevant to all the groups it
is cross-posted to. Ergo it must be spam. I don't agree. All
my groups are relevant in some way to a new debt-free
prohibition-free life-style under the new amalgamated
religion that's coming.

AA:We have too active a list to have people clutter up
bandwidth with such as what you've posted. If you want to
participate in this list, fine. Participate. If you want to
promote your personal agenda, whether I agree with it or
not, this is not the place for it.

JCT: Then tell us the agenda that you permit and explain why
medpot and usury aren't on the pagan agenda?

AA: My staff are incredibly tolerant with posts usually.

JCT: You haven't even allowed enough posts for anyone to
sense the beginning of the movie.

AA: More so than I am, to be frank. However, we will not,
nor do we have to, be insulted on our own groups.

JCT: This is my first post in response to your group. I've
never mentioned your group, yet. All those criticisms about
censorship you felt related to you were about other censors.
I did not mention the_pagan_way. But I'm glad you feel some
shame at what you've done to consider my criticisms an
"insult." You're not being insulted, you're being chastised
for playing fast and loose with your power.

AA: You are a guest here. You do not, nor does any member,
honour us with your presence. You also don't do us any
favors by simply being a member on my list. I have 1350+
people who understand this concept. You can either add one
to that number or leave the list.

JCT: You have members who accept that you control their
agenda? No other agendas allowed but yours? Where is that
advertised? Are you sure they know they can't serve their
own agendas here? Or have you just made that up for me?
Sadly, I don't obey your types that easily. I always make
you explain why the agenda you understand is the only one
allowed.

AA:Some people think that I'm required to tolerate abuse
just because I take time out of my schedule to run the lists
I run. They, and you, are. I don't need, want, or desire, to
take abuse and I will not have it on my list. PERIOD. You
have a complaint, you email me in private and we can discuss
it. You try to post it to get members to rally behind
whatever cause you happen to have, just or not, and I will
squash it.

JCT: Sorry, when you do shameful things, you have no
right to privacy. My only recourse is to publicize that the
Pagan Way is censorship by the owner who has mandated that
no one be able to discuss things you can't stay with. And it
pays off. See the later response from the
<parentsendingprohibition> moderator.

AA: My group is not a democracy and you were invited as a
courtesy. I thought, given your background, you could
contribute to this list. You have quite a list of
accomplishments and I applaud that. Being a poker player
myself, I'd almost like a chance to play you, actually. I'm
more known in Europe than here but I've won my share of pots
over the last 20 years or so.

JCT: And yet, you have taken the worst of courses and have
done shameful things that only asking for forgiveness can
erase. You'll never live this down, now that it's on the
net. Sticks and stones may break your bones but net words
sting forever.

AA: However, how you use what you have is entirely up to
you. You can use it to become respected or use it to become
just another idiot I banned because he has decided to test
my patience, resolve and see whether or not I am bluffing.
I assure you, sir, that I am not.

JCT: I don't care why you tell people you banned me. They'll
know it had to do with the issues of cannabis and usury not
being allowed. My two issues should be Pagan issues even if
you think not. I should be allowed to promote them as Pagan
issues even if you think not. You censored things that
should not have been and you deserve the shame you feel.

AA: Now, we're going to try this again. If you want to
repost your intro, now that I know that's what it is and
participate in this list, fine. No problem. The condition
is that you participate in the discussions on the list or,
if you choose to start a topic, it not be a list of posts
that you've posted on all the other lists you belong to plus
your own If these terms are unacceptable, then remove
yourself from the list and that's that. We have neither the
time nor inclination to keep rejecting posts because you
happen to be outraged at us for not approving posts that
have no relevance or no foundation in our group.

JCT: No, if you want your members to find out what they
didn't find out, just go to another list such as [turmel]
which has everything, pick it up and repost it yourself. You
erased it. You repost it. I only do it once.

AA: If you want to discuss your lawsuit, fine. Tell us what,
exactly, you're talking about first so we at least have a
reference.

JCT: Too bad you deleted the posts before you learned what
they were about. Especially when some members may have
understood before you did. Now your members can get all
future posts but will have to guess the background.

AA: We are an open forum as long as posts actually make
sense.

JCT: You don't have the right to demand that it make sense
to you. You can bet I won't send any advanced engineering
arguments.

AA: Yours didn't and so they were rejected. This one was
rejected because it was inflammatory and was intended to
rally support among our members.

JCT: Yes, my complaint about censorship was to rally support
among your members against your curtailment of free speech.
And you did not let it demonstrating the real danger of
censorship, that no one knows what's been cut, do they?

AA: Like I said, this is not a democracy.

JCT: Call it Pagan Democracy with a dash of censorship.

AA: One other thing, if you're going to respond to me or the
list with some nasty retort, save yourself the considerable
time and effort that you obviously spend on these and simply
remove yourself. I'll ban you immediately if you do. As I
said, neither I nor my staff has to take abuse and we don't.
I run one of the largest Pagan lists in Yahoo. I simply
don't need the grief.

JCT: I'll just send my criticisms and you decide what to
delete.

AA: This isn't a debate, BTW. This is simply a statement.
You have my terms and conditions. Either abide by them or
leave. Any action that's hostile will get you banned and I
hate doing that. It doesn't stop me but I do have a few
moments of regret.

JCT: Excuse me if I'm hostile to your censorship. Nothing I
can do about that. You'll just have to do what you think you
have to do. Of course, without letting any posts through
on what's going on.

AA: Rev. Sir Raymond E. Nieman DD HKOS

JCT: Rev? Where'd you learn your "do unto others...?"

AA: The Amber Adept
Owner - The Pagan Way and TPW Affiliated groups.
" Do not meddle in affairs of Dragons
for you are crunchy and good with ketchup"

JCT: What a sad ethos. You'll just have to do what you want
to do and then hide it from your members.
=====

JCT: I've already mentioned some censorship problems I've
had and here are some of the responses from some
moderators. See if their reasons sound right to you.

>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:26:55 +0000
>From: feetofclay@... (Snarky)
>Subject: Message not approved: TURMEL: #A CFRA MedPot
>To: TURMEL@...

S: This is a very important issue, I fully agree, but it is
off-topic in TPW. Even that could be permitted, but this is
lengthy, for a Yahoogroup that has already maxed out its
archive limit to the point where our moderators have to
delete selected posts and threads to keep more valuable
articles. This post would not be allowed to remain for more
than a day or two in any case...

JCT: Why don't you start The_Pagan_Way2 so you don't lose
your archives? It's an easy thing to switch.

S: Also, as I have already requested that you take the
medpot issue to either of the two groups which were created
for the express purpose of debating political and/or
controversial matters, I shall simply tell you, this time:
Take it to TPW_Politics or
The_Pagan_Way_Controversial_Topics_Forum (add -subscribe to
the usual Yahoo address, in order to join) -- and don't
worry, we won't delete any pending messages, as it is list
policy to only approve or reject them. TIA for your kind
cooperation. Sincerely, Rev. Clayton Edward McGill, ULC
Pope Snarky Goodfella of the undulating cable, JM, CK, POEE,
KOTHASK Moderator, TPW Psychic Gifts, TPW The Craft, The
Pagan Way Lite Elder, The Pagan Way Working Group, The Pagan
Way, The Pagan Way Controversial Topics Forum, TPW Politics,
TPW Pagan Dreams, TPW Debate, TPW Mods Forum

JCT: Didn't know there were other fora. I guess I'll have no
choice but to switch.

TOESECON: THE OTHER ECONOMIC SUMMIT
-------------------------------
http://yahoogroups.com/group/toesecon

>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 04:39:20 -0400 (EDT)
>From: TURMEL@...
>Subject: [turmel] Turmel: Submissions to toesecon list
>To: bwallace@... Cc: toesecon@yahoogroups.com

>>From: bwallace@... (bwallace_00720)
>>Hi John, Can you explain to me the relevance of the
messages submitted in your name to the topic of this list?
I'm afraid I don't get it. Regards,
Bob Wallace List Moderator

>JCT: I made my first presentation on LETS interest-free
community currencies to the 1997 Denver TOES, then the 1998
Birmingham TOES, then the 1999 Koln TOES, and after LETS was
adopted in the Millennium Declaration, a few TOESlist
democrats complained and my posts have been censored from
your group since then. Ask Trent Schroyer why he worked to
get my posts on the LETS anti-poverty system censored.
I also post on the second most important political issue
with respect to economics in the world today, legalizing
hemp bio-mass. Both the abolition of usury and the
legalisation of cannabis remain numbers 1 and 2 but those
posts have all been censored at toes.
Regardless, I keep sending my posts even though they are
being blocked by some moderators because they are relevant
and I want to be able to tell people someday when the LETS
anti-poverty system has saved the planet that those supposed
democrats for economic liberty censored every mention of the
two most important economic issues there are.
My posts are bang on topic for economics and I'm not going
to make the censor's responsibility any less. I want them to
have to hit the delete key every time to make sure you never
forget the evil I accuse you of doing.
I hope you agree they are relevant news.

JCT: So I think I explained to Bob how the two issues of
abolition of usury and prohibition on hemp are ECONOMIC.

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:28:35 +0000
>From: bwallace@... (Bob Wallace)
>Subject: Turmel, etc.
>To: metatoes@...

BW: I've been remiss. I discovered a few days ago that John
Turmel subscribes to 100 or so lists, to all of which he
posts the same messages. That does not fly here. When his
messages are blocked, he believes he is being censored.

JCT: Until he found out others have requested my feed, it
was okay. But now it doesn't fly here! What changed?

BW: That is true in the sense that only messages relevant to
the theme of this list may be posted here. This list is for
feedback about T.O.E.S., its mailing lists, <toeslist>,
<toesecon> and <metatoes>, as well as (why not?) its web
sites, www.ee.upenn.edu/~rabii/toes/ and www.toes-
usa.org/home.html
John, you may submit messages a relative to these subjects
and I may or may not let them be posted, depending on how
much of your bs I'm willing to deal with.

JCT: Remember, I've already explained how the only two
issues I write about to his group are economic and yet he
says relevance is not enough. And he knows I've been banned
form the toeslist group. I wonder which he'll censor first.

Finally, you'll remember I complained about being banned
from:

PARENTS ENDING PROHIBITION
http://yahoogroups.com/group/parentsendingprohibition
-----------------------------------------------------

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Hello again, Mr. Turmel
>To: parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
>Cc: rlake@..., TURMEL@...

E: I cannot even begin to say how much I hate being in any
way involved in this battle! As the folks on my list know,
the statement made by Mr. Turmel, "consider that the
moderator of parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
silenced me without telling his members what he did and now
they're missing it." is not entirely true.

On March 13, Richard Lake posted this to the PEP list,
"Oh, and finally, no need to worry about wearing out your
delete key! John Turmel is history on this list. If you
really like to read his stuff, sign up for his discussion
list, a yahoogroups list called medpot-discuss."

Basically, Richard approached me and offered to help with
PEP. I gratefully accepted, and turned over control of the
list to him. At the same time, I had written Mr. Turmel,
asking that he not post attacks on other reformers to my
list, but before he did so again, Richard banned him.

I was not comfortable with this, but Richard explained that
once the list is moved to the DrugSense servers, it would be
impossible for Mr. Turmel to post, anyway, as he's banned
from their servers. Over what was to be a few posts, I
wasn't about to argue.

Buuuut, between Richard getting overloaded with other
projects, and my own ill health, combined with trying to
help get the med mj bill passed here, the list has not yet
moved. So, I will ask Richard to please remove the ban on
Mr. Turmel, until the list is moved.

Personally, I have no objection to Mr. Turmel's posts,
except when he's on the attack again. But I can also see
Richard's point of view. Many people have small limits on
the kb in their inboxes, and Mr. Turmel's posts can be
lengthy and sometimes off-topic. Still, I believe he
deserves another chance to keep his posts civil and on
topic. I saw no reason to ban him at that particular
moment.

I have limited time, energy, and other resources. Not only
am I raising and homeschooling five kids, I also have a
disease that knocks me on my butt fairly regularly. My
efforts are, by necessity, small. While I'm interested in
what's happening elsewhere, I have to focus my energies on
helping other parents educate themselves about better ways
to keep their kids from problems associated with drug abuse.
Though I appreciate the efforts of Mr. Turmel to fight for
appropriate pain relief for children, and I support this,
it's beyond the scope of what I can invest myself in at this
moment.

All that said, I'll say once again.... I DON"T WANT TO BE
INVOLVED IN YOUR PERSONAL WAR!!!

You both have valid points, and you both tend to wander off
in obsessive states where your arguments become comical.
Outside of the entertainment value when PEP and I aren't
involved, I DON'T CARE!!!

JCT: Yes, but Richard Lake's purpose is to censor me. Mine
is not to censor him. I love making him back down from me.

E: Mr. Turmel, I will not personally censor you; however,
once the PEP list is moved, it will be out of my hands. I
will provide a link to your site from the PEP"Links" page,
though. Bottom line... I need all the help I can get to get
my org off the ground. Richard offered this help, and you
did not.

JCT: He offered his help in exchange for censorship over me
and banned me.

E: If you have any further questions or concerns, please
feel free to contact me, personally at hbmama1999@...
Erin, list-owner of Parents Ending Prohibition

JCT: So Craftybitch Cher got caught joining a list to
complain and now Richard Lake is caught taking over
moderation to ban me. As I explained, this Amerikan narc
mole has been harassing me to moderators for over a year.
With some, though not much, success. But I'm thankful that
this helps convince people that Richard Lake and his kennel
of bitches do the dirty deeds.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669