>From: ijccr@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:53:14 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: musing on the earth conversation

>>So we don't need to use gold or hours or energy or a
>>basket of global "commodities" as a stabilizing factor for
>>a community/complimentary currency system. We can just use
>>the very goods and services of the participants in the
>>system. I believe this would be very good way to build
>>such a system.

S: I'm latching on to this conversation at this point
because the description tunes in with something I noticed
about how people operate LETS systems...around here.

Somewhere along the way they tend to start separating the
commodities traded from the 'assigned value', and they
manifest this in their documentation.

So a column listing 'goods received' eventually becomes
detached on a report from a column listing 'point value'.
Pretty soon everyone starts obsessing on the numbers in the
value column. Wasn't LETS supposed to be about 'move
directly to Go. You don't need the $200'!?

When I did records for my group I bunched up the goods with
the numbers so they stayed together. I soon realised that
anyone would feel better looking at a list naming the good
things they'd received and and the services performed for
them than a list of numbers they OWED!!

I observe that no one in my LETS group seems to have a
problem with wanting to RETURN the energy received back to
the community- in fact we mentally torture ourselves with
guilt (typical gals!) when we haven't. Which leads me to
believe that we should always encourage new members first
off to acquire, acquire, acquire...
a) so that they get a buzz, and
b) it provides older members who they are acquiring from a
chance to 'give back'... and
c) the process one would expect, would encourage the next
new who will also find joining beneficial because of the
pattern of getting to receive first. (I have just noticed
this is much like the process known as Human Reproduction,
down through the generations!)

JCT: It does seem to stress a fundamental human
characteristic that Tom Kennedy had noted in his Grade 5
class use of LETS. Guilt for owing and wanting to pay it
back and get into the positive. That's why LETS that start
everyone with a certain standard amount, like Ithaca, do not
experience this kind of impediment.

S: funnily the polar opposite of
maketonsofmoneywhilereversingagingevenasyoulosewightand
developaabiggerfingerwhilstsendingthousandsofharassing
junkemails  FOR WHAT??!!!!

So, your list of what you acquire becomes a '+' list (a list
of 'plus' points demarking energy received) which is
conversely a measure of your 'debt' to society. This number
REDUCES as you 'pay back', which also FEELS GOOD to do.

JCT: That's another way to make LETS feel good.

S: Idyllic dreams: This system could equally be applied to
reckon up our debt to the generous planet, the sun, our
ancestors, our unknown allies, indigenous people if we are
the colonistas, the third world (if we are not them
ourselves), the third world ancestors, our worthy opponents,
etc. And all historically exploited people should
automatically become recipients first off!

Strangely this is the opposite of what LETS seems to
manifest in its method of documentation!

JCT: Don't forget, I didn't have anything to do with the
documentation and if people have been led to ride their
machines backwards, it does not detract from the system when
ridden right.

S: AND if people would turn it around like this it would
immediately come into congruency with federal 'tax' reward
systems at least here in Australia. So that when you GIVE
LOCALLY, you pay less tax federally.

What else? What do I need? What do I give? I have given
BIRTH, how much is that worth, mother sun?! All I need is
LOVE, poetry, intelligent conversation, a quest, humor,
food, a roof, beauty, a bicycle - only a car if people don't
live close to me... failing the internet, that is. And to
see the world thrive so all people may live in Peace-
without burning that dead stuff, soon, I hope. Sue
(great great niece of Sir Ernest Rutherford <^;)

>Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:55:37 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: [ijccr] Basket of Goodies

>Let me guess that the people having large, and growing,
>positive balances are the ones growing concerned, like,
>"Hey, I have given X thousands of loaves of bread over this
>counter, in return for all these LETS certificates.. now I
>am getting behind in paying for my employees and my wheat
>and electricity... hmmm who are the people who have all the
>negative balances?  Oh my gosh, they haven't been heard
>from in ages!"

Just taking a couple of your points (thanks, I'll add them
to my balance... hehe) A baker in a LETS system would not be
in this situation. If they were drawing their power and
grain from others in a LETS system, the thousands of loaves
of bread they gave out would certainly qualify them to
receive these necessities from those who are offering them.

If it was a hybrid situation they would not be so silly as
to give out thousands of loaves to LETSERS unless they were
able to balance the input. You always in LETS have
permission to refuse to trade. They might though be able to
balance the input by having someone on LETS fix their car,
or clean their house, or babysit, or give them hi tech goods
or any of a number of energy inputs which save them the
money so they can use it to buy what they have to.

JCT: But easiest of all is to charge part Green and the
other part cash to cover cash expenses.

S: We can complain all we like about the delusion of the
monetary system but let's face it, whoever performed the
sleight of hand was clever enough to think it up and
consistently convince people. To make LETS work people have
collectively to apply an equal amount or better of creative
power, flexibility, innovation, will and whatever else it
takes. (Not that I am convinced that LETS is the be all and
end all)

JCT: No, UNILETS is the be all and end all. The Local LETS
model has all sorts of problems that cannot exist once the
total database becomes accessible to all members.

S: If LETS people could smell the value of those tempting
loaves of bread then someone might eventually get smart and
think up away of including power sources and agricultural
sources into the system. But there doesn't have to be a
DIRECT LETS relationship between these various ingredients,
I remind you.

JCT: That's because the "L is for Local" crowd have striven
to keep it small and ineffectual. Okay, they didn't aim at
keeping it ineffectual but keeping it small did the same
thing.

>Let's face it, many of these people may be laboring under
>some handicaps, some mental attitudes, some addictions, or
>just rotten folks.  For whatever reason, the risk is ending
>up with people who are *not* efficient producers
>particularly for the more complicated or unpleasant tasks
>of production.

Todd, I have enjoyed the bluntness of your observations on
'addictiveness' in as Australia is rife with it but I beg to
differ here - there is not necessarily anything wrong with a
person with a handicap benifiting from a LETS system. Who
says we have to all give equally? My interest in Indigenous
systems and pre-industrialised forms of culture have
particularly made me aware that a society can function very
nicely with other paradigms - stronger members helping care
for weaker... middle-aged people can care for old, old for
young,.. who says we do not personally BENEFIT from
altruistic satisfaction of our potential to give to others?

JCT: I don't know how many times I have expressed my
approval for the Timedollar operators who give open credit
lines to little old people who will never be able to pay it
back. I don't know how many times I have repeated that they
are counting on the next generation to do the same for them
even if Todd doesn't trust the next generation enough.

S: AND look at how our entire society (ok I'm being
patriarchal-centric here!) has sustained itself simply by
refusing to value monetarily the caring, cleaning, teaching,
healing, shopping, cooking, maintaining and sustaining work
of 50% or more of the population. ALSO I am reading at the
moment of how 'white' has been consistently applied in the
US and Australia to 'whoever doesn't have to do the yukky
jobs'... White has automatic entitlements... in Australia
and US (and others) all sorts of 'non-white' people (which
changes according to this economic stuff) have been brought
in or rounded up to do lowly paid or even no pay work for
the entitled  and benefiting White people... that's what our
CURRENT economy rests on. So to say we can manage to 'carry'
a few 'non-productive' people is not a big ask.

JCT: Can't wait until all LETSers feel like Timedollarers
too.

S: A very interesting book is called 'Society as an Addict'
by a woman called something-Ann-Schaeffer (sorry, forgot
name- can find out) which compares the characteristics of a
Western Industrialised society with an individual addict -
and disovers they are the same... Selfishness, Consumerism,
Toxicity, Denial (as far as I can remember, you'd better
read it yourself!). She made a convincing case that people
born into these societies are ENCOURAGED from birth to
acquire addictive mind sets and behaviors... in an
individual, addictiveness can be can be intervened with so
maybe societally too...it will be just as hard work though.

JCT: Right. They've been conditioned to eschew personal
initiative and strive for consensus before doing anything
which permits a few nay-sayers to nullify their worth.
They've been brain-washed into such sick behavior.

S: Anyway, I've never noticed any real encumbrance weak or
handicaped people place on a LETS system apart from the way
I think about them... which challenges me to see if it's all
in my head...

JCT: Except for guys who worried about being repaid.

S: This message has had plenty to digest in it already but
in closing, I'll just say I find the whole telescoped
colonial occupation of Iraq to be a disturbing but an
intriguing look at the forces of subjection and colonisation
before our very eyes.

JCT: And some of us found out about the puppet's strings
before they got before our very eyes. But it is a heck of an
education watching the Amerikan booboisie's consent being
manufactured in real time. Any bets that in a few months,
they'll all believing that the Iranian Ayattolas did 9-11
like they make them believe Saddam did it too?

S: Right down to the Language which has been so OBVIOUSLY
gendered ie. "softening up", "thrusting", "probing",- cities
"fall" (like a 'fallen woman') - and the projected attitude
towards the population by the US is unashamedly 'they are
poor, helpeless victims, unable to help themselves, they
need our forceful, masculine,

JCT: Hey, some pretty heartless feminazis too. Madeleine
Albright who answered that half a million dead Iraqi
children wasn't too high a price to pay to ensure their
Kuwaiti Royals kept their stolen oil wells.

S: sometimes brutal help to give them a better life (which
they are incapable of doing for themselves)' 'and if that
means surrendering up their autonomy, their resources, their
freedoms for our benefit (o, yeh, THEIR benefit too)- well,
so be it'. How typical of a patriarchal gendered
(male/female) relationship is THAT!! Food for thought eh...
would you like some fishes with that? Sue  <^;O*

>Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:04:39 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: YES!

A sample from Buckminster Fuller's article (thanks for
posting the websites Mr Chance!)

Hey, when did he write this?   Sue
from: http://BFI.org/grunch_of_giants.htm

Spaceship Earth now has 150 admirals. The five admirals in
the staterooms immediately above the ship's fuel tanks claim
that they own the oil. The admirals with staterooms
surrounding the ship's kitchen, dining rooms, and food
refrigerators claim they own all the food. Those with a
stateroom next to a lifeboat claim that they own the
lifeboat, and so forth. They then have an onboard game
called balance of trade. Very shortly the majority of
admirals have a deficit balance. All the while the
starboard-side admirals are secretly planning to list the
boat to port far enough to drown the portside admirals,
while the portside admirals are secretly trying to list the
boat to starboard far enough to drown the starboard-side
admirals. Nobody is paying any attention to operating the
ship or steering it to some port. They run out of food and
fuel. They discover that they can no longer reach a port of
supply. Finis.

Humanity is now experiencing history's most difficult
evolutionary transformation. We are moving away from a
rooted life-style with a 95-percent rate of illiteracy. We
are almost unconsciously drifting away from self-identity
with our ages-long, physically-remote-from-one-another
existence as 150 separate, sovereign nations. Now the
uprooted humans of all nations are spontaneously deploying
into their physically integrated highways and airways and
satellite-relayed telephone speakways, into a big-city way-
stationed, world-around living system.

We may soon be atom-bombed into extinction by the preemptive
folly of the political puppet administrators fronting for
the exclusively-for-money-making, supranational
corporations' weaponry industry of the now hopelessly
bankrupt greatest-weapons-manufacturing nation (the U.S.A.).

If not bomb-terminated, we are on our ever swifter way to
becoming an omni-integrated, majorly literate, unified
Spaceship Earth society.

The new human networks' emergence represents the natural
evolutionary expansion into the just completed, thirty-
years-in - its-buildings world-embracing, physical
communications network. The new reorienting of human
networking constitutes the heart-and-mind-pumped flow of
life and intellect into the world arteries...

JCT: And all this insanity is the result of humanity trying
to pay back more monetary tokens than the banks printed and
loaned out in the first place. All the bad vibrations stem
from that one great instability, the greatest sin on earth,
usury, interest on sterile non-baby-producing money.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

1) Freed Schmitter: The Demise of the USEmpire
2) Paul McKeever: Freedom Party & Social Credit
3) Tom Kennedy: U R invited to a 'usuryfree' CLEAR Money
4) JimFor: Modern US Banking Question....

1) Freed Schmitter: The Demise of the USEmpire
----------------------------------------------

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:42:13 +0200
>From: typos@... (freed)
>Subject: [turmel] The Demise of the USEmpire
>To: turmel@yahoogroups.com

JCT: It was a beautiful spring day in whic to let George
Bush know that I thought he'd committed a crime. There were
anti-war demos all around the planet and one in Ottawa which
I attended.

FS: Dear John,
It took some perseverance to cope with the lenghty reports
on your fight for hemp, but here you are. Full of spirit,
and determined as ever. Slowly, the bigger picture is
visible. And we will be grateful for your pioneering work in
your two main areas: free natural medicine, and free money.

By the way, did you know about an attempt to outlaw natural
medicine via the European Parliament?
http://www.eu-referendum.org

JCT: Do you mean like they talked of banning garlic without
a prescription in Canada? What natural medicine are you
speaking of here?

FS: That is a nasty side of the (in other respects, e.g.
regarding Palestine and Iraq) probably, seemingly rather
progressive governing body of the emerging giant Europe.

But i like to draw attention to another point. Dear John, i
don't remember to have read anything on this, or have
overlooked it maybe. Are you familiar with the Islamic Gold
Dinar? It was introduced on a small scale in 2001 in the
United Arab Emirates. This year in Summer, Malaysia plans to
launch it on a big scale. The Gold Dinar and the Silver
Dirham are based on historic measures.

JCT: I have heard of the gold dinar but if you read my notes
from David Astle's Babylonian Woe at my home page, you'll
realize that there is nothing as silly as using a scarce
medium to print your currency on.

The Islamic Party of Great Britain showed the way for all
Islam back in 1999 when it supported and endorsed the LETS
as the ideal Islamic banking system. It doesn't need
anyone's gold or silver to get started like the other ones
do.

If Islam really wanted to give Ole Uncle Sam a kick in the
economic pants, all they'd have to do is start up their own,
not time bank currency but oil bank currency. Switch to
receipts for oil and the Amerikan dollar crumbles and
they'll be too broke to fight any wars though they'll
probably revert to stealing others' resources anyway. If
Argentinian farmers have found out that their IOUs for grain
usable down at the loading docks could bypass the banks, how
long to you think it will take for oil producers to bypass
the banks with oil IOUs. And if Amerika wants Iran's oil,
they'd better start accepting Iran's oil dollars.

FS: One of their uses will be to pay zikat, as i understand
a 2% solidarity tax that well-to-do muslims pay for the
support of poorer members of their community. This tax
should be usury-free, which is guaranteed here. See
http://www.islamicmint.com and its electronic twin
http://www.e-dinar.com

JCT: Taking from the rich to give to the poor is splashing
in the pool which does not solve the imbalance between the
money in the pool, the principal P, and the debt in the
pumphouse, the principle P + the interest I. P+I in the
pumphouse is the problem and no amount of juggling with P in
the pool is going to change the imbalance.

FS: There are over a billion muslims on Earth, which makes
it the biggest monotheistic religion. When they indeed
solidarize commonly and start to exchange on a big scale
dollars for this currency, then the USEmpire will crumble.
Without any loss of blood (directly), the megalomaniacs will
be brought down, and Argentinian situations could occur. Beg
they have the safebelt UNILETS and similar developed and in
place in time...

JCT: They can make the US Empire crumble without needing any
the gold and silver, only their oil and the LETS accounting
currency.

FS: A garganutan US state debt of 6.4 trillion dollars
complements 9 trillion dollars of income this year. A huge
chunk of this is generated by forcing all nations all over
the world to pay oil in dollars. For that, they need to have
dollars in their banks. That is, this was the idea until
recently. In November 2000, S'ddam H'ssein changed from the
petro-dollar to the petro-euro. See W. Clark's long
informative essay at
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

JCT: Wow, I didn't know. He struck at the Amerikan life-
line. No wonder they had to have him removed and had to
install the convicted embezzler Chalabi to help them steal
Iraq's oil.

FS: This did not make a lot of sense then other than pester
the enemy. Meanwhile, SH's move has paid Iraq some 30% extra
gain, the dollar lost almost a third against the euro in the
new Millennium. Last year, Iraq state assets of some 20
billion dollars were exchanged to euros as well. Iran is
preparing to do the same, as well as Venezuela. (According
to rumours, North-Korea has the same plans.)

JCT: The oppressor's only weakness is their currency. There
is no other way to resist than to dump US money and switch
to something else. But making that something else just
trades one set of shortage problems for another.

FS: An unexpected but very logical reason for the seemingly
senseless war on terrorism and the axis of evil - although
to be understood quite differently.

JCT: Right you are. I'd bet Chalabi gets them back on the US
dollar in no time flat.

FS: The free ride for the superpower is over. The rest of
the world will start to form alliances to create desirable
realities.

JCT: To create desirable IOU currencies to supplant the US
IOU.

FS: To give an example of such a cooperation: Venezuela
spends a part of their oil income to let Cuba produce
generic affordable AIDS medicine for Africa. I could not
verify the source of this newsbit, but i remember to have
read it somewhere. Wow, this is inspiring, isn't it?

JCT: Most everything I've heard about Castro is inspiring.
His universities sent a greater number of doctors to the the
Third World than the School of the Americas sent teachers of
torture techniquers. I love that joke. And they keep telling
us Castro's the bad guy.

FS: Eventually, the moneylenders see their hate and fear
empire threatened by an outpour of love and unity of a
growing number of planetary citizens. They have freed
themselves from brainwashing and torture, liberated from the
fools who think they rule(d) over the world.

JCT: Notice the quiet out Argentina when we were told they
on the verge of exploding a couple of years ago.

FS: And there is a shortcut to this. When we imagine
ourselves as one, then there is also a chenei, a b'sh, a
bin, a sadd, etc (alternative names to fool the spy engines)
part in y-ourselves. We do not have to sanction anything
these dictators did and do. Just connect in meditation or
thought the(ir) harmony aspects with y-our harmony aspects.
This generous act might benefit planet Earth in yet
unconceivable ways.
freed
Above mentioned links and more proposals at
http://www.planetwork.org

JCT: There's a wonderful world coming and only a world war
can stop it. Say, they do call this a world war against
terrorism. And they'll probably need Bush to lead the fight
the helm for the rest of his life. It just takes one
incident and they're under martial law and dictatorship. Sad
isn't it to see the bastion of democracy disappear so
quickly.
=====

2) Paul McKeever: Freedom Party & Social Credit
-----------------------------------------------

>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:00:25 -0400
>From: mckeever@... (Paul McKeever)
>Subject: Social Credit and federal Political Parties
>To: TURMEL@...

PM: Dear Mr. Turmel,
I am the leader of the Freedom Party of Canada, which was
founded in July of 2001 by myself and Freedom Party of
Ontario co-founder Robert Metz.

I was browsing some articles posted to USENET and came
across one detailing your experiences with various political
parties. I thought I'd drop you a note about Fp Canada.

My understanding - correct me if I am wrong - is that you
are in favour of debt-free money... that you are in favour
of a situation in which 100% of the dollars in Canada are
issued, debt free, by the government/bank of Canada.

JCT: No, I don't mind debt. Isaiah 55 said "You who are
hungry and have no money, come, buy and eat." He didn't say
come and have a freebie, he said come, buy. To buy without
money implies credit with the obligation to pay it. So I am
not against debt-credit, I am against the growth of it for
no logical reason, especially when the banking is paid for
now causes death by poverty of money.

PM: Freedom Party of Canada shares that view, and has a
policy to that effect. The implementation plans would
parallel those set out by Irving Fisher in his book "100%
Money": the deposits held by our Chartered banks would be
assumed by the Bank of Canada which, in turn, would issue
debt-free currency to replace the bank credit dollar for
dollar (no change in the number of dollars, just in the form
they take).

JCT: Okay, I'll admit that the debt-free issuance of money
would be an improvement over not doing it. My issue is
maximization of benefit and a 0% reserve LETS has fewer
headaches and estimations than a 100% model. And the 100%
model still permits interest on money (usury) to warp the
game. See; http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

PM: Banks would simultaneously, be prevented from lending-
out self-made debts (i.e., banks could no longer add dollars
to the money supply in the form of credit). This would be
accomplished with a 100% reserve requirement.

JCT: I agree your way is an improvement but I don't mind the
banks issuing new tokens in exactly the same way LETS do.
Banks now monetize our collateral just as LETS does. It's
not who is doing the monetizing but whether they are doing
it in a stable way. Any positive feedback, whether interest
or demurrage, causes imbalance that has to be later
corrected for. Only linear, non-exponential, zero-feedback
currency stays as simple as the neighborhood poker chips.

PM: Now, from what I can tell, you are of the view that
banks should be prohibited from charging interest on the
money they lend out, but perhaps I am not correct in my
understanding of your view. In a Canada where the only money
was currency (i.e., debt free dollars), would you be opposed
to a person lending his debt-free dollars to someone and
charging interest for the service?

JCT: Why would a person borrow at interest from someone else
when the bank can lend it to him at the same interest-free
rate as the bank got it from the Central bank and only
paying a service charge for the bankers, not the money's,
time? Just as in a LETS, no one needs to borrow from someone
else when everyone can open up their own personal online
LETS bank account, so no, I would not prohibit anyone from
trying to lend out their money at interest since I don't
expect anyone to prefer paying possibly-forever interest
over a one-time service charge for the same loan. LETS
systems do not need to prohibit lending at interest when no
one runs short of currency as needed.

PM: Or is it simply the case that, in the current system -
where banks are permitted to create the dollars they lend
out - the charging of interest tends to encourage the
creation of additional dollars? Interested in your views.

JCT: In the present system where they are permitted to
reclaim not only the principal they created but also the
interest they did not, it creates a death-gamble, a fight to
the death between borrowers that Keynes likened to musical
chairs. There is never enough for all to pay both P+I when
all were only issued P and so for some to pay their
interest, others must lose their principal.

PM: Regards, Paul McKeever Leader, Freedom Party of Canada
web: www.freedomparty.ca

JCT: Like your name. I named by Party the Abolitionist
because I accepted we were slaves to needing freedom and I
accept that your, excuse the expression which in no way
denigrates, old-fashioned Social Credit solution would work.
I'm a proud grandson of Quebec Social Credit which first
advocated the LETS interest-free design rather than the
"debt-free" issuance of money to pay off the imbalance.

Because it is the imbalance that the debt-free money helps
go to pay. The interest debt that no one has money for. If
the ratio of success is P/(P+I) and failure I/(P+I), then
you can either add enough debt-free money in the numerator
to balance the debt, one way, or you can eliminate the I
imbalance from the start, The Engineer's way.

My way is optimum because linear LETS can be run by a
computer with no estimation errors.

Sadly, I've met few old-time "debt-free" social credit money
advocates who jumped onto the "interest-free" LETS social
credit money bandwagon. Paul Hellyer never did and kept many
money reformers wasting their time for the past 10 years. I
hope you are different.

Just keep in mind that the LETS has been endorsed by
candidates not only from my former Abolitionist Party of
Canada but by the Green Party, Natural Law, Christian
Heritage, even Marxist-Leninist, even even an NDP and I
always though they were complete Socialist losers. They
always wanted to socialize every non-primary system possible
but never the primary credit system. They were always in
favor of leaving banking to the rich. Do we really need to
be trying to promote a less-efficient system when major
consensus has been reached on the optimal one.

Sure, I have never been elected in my 54 election campaigns
but I was invited to address the Millennium Assembly on a
world-wide UNILETS which was adopted and included in the
Millennium Declaration. Do we really need to be spending
time working on another model we'd like the UN to do when
there's already one on the UN agenda?

I invite you to do your homework on LETS and be ready when
all pro-LETS parties can soon come together in a party-
building consensus that can take Canada by surprise. I've
been working years on this consensus and some startling
developments are just around the corner.

Last point, large LETS groupings in Argentina are becoming
politically active. I've been trying to large politically
active groups to become LETS groupings. Either way, exist
within the solution and go for power, or go for power to
then live in the solution, it's happening and political
teachers of the interest-free way of life are sorely needed.

There is nothing so dangerous to them as personal
initiative. If it has genius behind it, it can do more than
can be done by the millions amongst whom they've sown
discord.

Any man who founds his own political party has personal
initiative. Jump on the genius bandwagon and you'll do more
than can be done by the millions....

Stay tuned and start teaching your supporters. The big day
is coming soon.
=====

3) Tom Kennedy: U R invited to a 'usuryfree' CLEAR Money
--------------------------------------------------------

JCT: One of Tom Kennedy's most informative posts for your
edification:

>Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:13:51 -0400
>From: tom@... ("Tommy-Usury: Free")
>Subject: U R invited to a 'usuryfree,' CLEAR Money

TK: Greetings TCN Readers and/or Otherwise:
After receiving feedback from some cyberspace associates who
double as 'usuryfree creatives,' I have revised the email
that I forwarded re: the basic introduction to the
'usuryfree,' CLEAR money proposal for we-the-people of
Canada and the CLEAR presentation scheduled for Wednesday,
April 16th in London, Ontario.

The revised email is posted below. Additionally, I have
attached a one page flyer with some basic information about
the CLEAR, 'usuryfree,' money proposal for we-the-people of
Canada. Please share this information with your cyberspace
friends and assocaites and with your family, friends,
neighbours and working colleagues and invite them to offer
some input and feedback. Enjoy this day!
---

The Cyberclass Network, P.O. Box 9333, Ottawa K1G 3V1
Greetings TCN Readers and/or Otherwise:

On the weekend of February 21st, 22nd, 23rd, & 24th, the
C.L.E.A.R. (Common Law Education And Rights) Initiative
hosted a gathering of a dedicated group of 'usuryfree
creatives' from all across Canada gathered in the Oakanogan
Valley, British Columbia to prepare a proposal for a
'usuryfree,' CLEAR money system.

JCT: Seems like starting at the bottom when UNILETS is ready
at the top.

TK: I was honoured to be invited to attend that historic
weekend event. Before the weekend and since that weekend
much effort and energy has been put into developing a
'usuryfree,' CLEAR money system that can be implemented in
this 21st Century for we-the-people of Canada. When
perfected this proposal could be adapted by politicians, as
the optimal economic strategy to solve the 'shortage of
funds' that afflicts every level of government, municipal,
provincial or federal. Then, as we-the-people of Canada
create abundance, prosperity, peace and plenty for everyone,
the rest of the world will beat a path to our door asking:
'What are you doing and how are you doing it?'

Though the final proposal is not yet perfected it is time to
share the details of the prototype with fellow-Canadians and
invite their input and feedback. In this regard, various
educators with the C.L.E.A.R. Initiative are hosting events
to present the 'usuryfree,' CLEAR money system to the 'Court
of Public Review' - that's we-the-people. Expect many future
events to be scheduled by CLEAR educators in the not-too-
distant future.

The Cyberclass Network is pleased to invite anybody in the
vicinity (within 300 miles) of London, Ontario to attend
this memorable event.

Rick Walker, an educator with the C.L.E.A.R. (Common Law
Education And Rights) Initiative will be hosting a
presentation on the 'usuryfree,' CLEAR Money Solution on
Wednesday, April 16th, 2003 at 7:00 PM. This CLEAR event
will be hosted at Stone Ridge, Best Western Hotel, on the
corner of #4 and #401 in London, Ontario. One of the
founders of the C.L.E.A.R. Initiative, Dave Lindsay, from
Kelowna, BC will also be present at this event.

This CLEAR presentation will demonstrate how we-the-people
are being robbed of an abundance of leisure time by our
current 'usury-based' monetary system. This presentation
will also show that we-the-people are the shareholders of
Canada and we can benefit from the improved levers of
technology by the dividend process as outlined by the
'usuryfree,' CLEAR money proposal. The dividend must be
connected to the ever-improving production of the robots.

In this proposal for an optimal CLEAR money system, the
robots of the future will produce the products/services with
supervision by the workers (we-the-people) and store the
record of this production in a central office. (- possibly a
National Credit Office {NCO} which could be compared to a
Casino Bank that stores the collateral of the players) This
new production becomes the collateral for the creation of
the new money to be distributed to we-the-people as
dividends.

Keep in mind that the dividend must be made up of new money
upon which robot production is based. Fair market earnings
will be paid to the workers who man the shift to supervise
the robots and the rest of the value of the production goes
to the dividend distribution centre -  the NCO office -
where it is divided up between every citizen of the country.
Each shift of workers competes to maximize production for
all we-the-people. The excess production after the payment
to the workers for their labour is where the dividend comes
from in this new proposal for a 'usuryfree,' CLEAR money
system.

JCT: The robot dividend well-explained.

TK: Indeed, this CLEAR presentation will focus on a viable
alternative to our 'usury' money system which is stealing
the wealth from we-the-people. Readers are invited to attend
this event to see and hear the problem of 'usury' defined
and the solution of 'usuryfree,' CLEAR money explained. And
bring your friends, neighbours and working colleagues.

Let's try to avoid the phrase 'debt money system' to
describe what enslaves us right now. Instead let's correctly
call it the 'usury money system.' By calling a 'debt money
system we focus the problem on 'debt'. The problem is NOT
'debt' - which is simply a legitimate IOU or a chip or a
token. The real problem is the 'usury' which is NOT created
BUT which must be paid on the 'debt' which can be, the IOU,
the chip, the token, the cheque, the computer blip, or the
piece of paper.

JCT: Glad to hear it. People must be disabused of the notion
that the problem social credit is a solution for is social
debt, when the problem social credit really is a solution
for is anti-social credit,

TK: In the casino bank, 'credit' money or 'debt' money is
the same - it's chips or tokens based on collateral or based
on IOU's for collateral. The real problem is the 'feedback'
in our current monetary system, caused by the design flaw of
'usury'

From an engineering point of view it is less than optimal to
spend time talking about the perceived problem of 'taxes.'
An engineer once told me that wasting time talking about
'taxes' while trying to solve the problem of 'usury' in our
money system is likened to 'splashing in the pool' instead
of focusing on the 'tap' - the source of money. It is the
'usury' component of our money system that is the problem!!

John C. 'The Engineer' Turmel has posted detailed diagrams
using a plumbing model to explain how money is created and
how 'usury' functions in our present, orthodox money system.
Details at http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

It is necessary to prove that money comes out of a 'tap'
since it is NOT coming out of the depositors' funds. John C.
'The Engineer' Turmel was the first engineer to prove this
with his 'bankmath' which he published in the early 1980's.
John also explains 'The Big Lie of Economics' (inflation) at
this URL: www.cyberclass.net/turmel/biglie.htm

Think about this fact in our current 'usury' money system.
If you subtract from our taxes paid to the government, all
of the money exacted by the banking syndicate for 'usury'
you will have a small portion of money left. This amount
left is what is used to pay for services. Indeed, it is a
small amount in comparison to what is stolen as 'taxes.'

The current 'depreciation of service energy' is cleverly
disguised in our 'usury' money system. The system pretends
that the tax is being used for services which we-the-people
would willingly pay for BUT the system is really designed to
steal our money under the guise of taxes and use the major
part of taxes to pay 'usury' on the debt. Indeed, it is
unfortunate that my fellow-Canadians think that their
'taxes' is being used to pay for services, when in fact, the
majority of 'taxes' is being used to pay debt service, which
ought to be correctly called 'usury.' Our current 'usury'
money system is 'counter productive' and discriminatory only
because of 'usury' NOT because of 'taxes.'

We-the-people should NOT be focusing our energy on the
'avoidance of taxes.' We-the-people do have the power and
we-the-people can empower any level of government to collect
the tax (or call it something else if you want) for the
services that we need to create a functioning society in
this 21st Century. There is really no need to condemn the
'tax' when it is being used to provide necessary services
for any community. If we don't want to call it 'tax' then we
can call it something else BUT as a necessary component
ofthis new CLEAR money system we do need to set up the
infrastructure so that basic services are covered for every
free will, full liability man, woman and child living in
Canada.

Instead, let's ONLY focus on the 'evasion of usury' - the
real problem. Understand that 'usury' is the ONLY illicit
component of the current 'usury' money system. In a perfect,
'usuryfree,' money system, there will be (a) depreciation of
matter/energy and (b) depreciation of service energy,  that
is commonly known as the services needed to run local
communities. The proposal for a 'usuryfree,' CLEAR money
system must address these issues as it seeks to perfect its
model to operate the infrastructure optimally.

King Henry was able to establish an (NCO) National Credit
Office in his tally program. He simply had the people match
up the 'usuryfree' tallies (pieces of wood) and that's the
amount of 'tax' that he took out of circulation at the end
of each year to cover the (a) and (b) depreciation as
mentioned above. If King Henry could do it without computer
technology we can do it optimally in this 21st century given
the ease of modern technology.

The Argentine farmers are demonstrating a distinct level of
ingenuity in 2003, as they are experiencing that there is NO
money. They are now issuing IOU's and spending them to pay
off debt. Because their IOU's are created without interest
or usury they have a high velocity - which means the people
in the community spend them fast - because there is no
motivation to hoard them. Therefore, there is a general
cancellation of debt in Argentina due to an abundance of
'usuryfree' community currency. Very soon the whole world
will be accepting 'usuryfree' IOU's. More details about how
the Argentines are leading the way with their movement to
create and spend their own 'usuryfree' community currency
called 'creditos' at the Argentina Cyberclassroom:
www.cyberclass.net/argentina.htm

Indeed, it is time for we-the-people to join together and
move ahead with a solution to abolish the 'usury' money
system in Canada. Participation and feedback is invited as
we seek to perfect this CLEAR model for a 'usuryfree' money
system.

There will be a video and an accompanying workbook published
in the not-too-distant future to explain the 'usuryfree,'
CLEAR money solution. Should you wish to be informed when
this CLEAR video and accompanying workbook will be available
please forward an email to: tom@... or visit the
CLEAR Cyberclassroom: www.cyberclass.net/clear.htm
Enjoy this day! Working with you for 'peace and plenty' by
2020 and 'becoming usuryfree in 2003' I AM

Tommy-Usury: Free otherwise known as 'Tom-Joseph: Kennedy'
www.cyberclass.net

PS: Any 'universally redeemable' token is just like a
national LETSystem. It seems to me that it makes sense to
advocate that we-the-people who are learning about the
'usuryfree,' CLEAR money system for the whole country ought
to immediately work to create local LETSystems in our
respective communities. As part of the evolutionary process,
we can encourage individuals to create their financial
liberty by creating their own 'usuryfree' currency.

Of course, our long term goal will be to unite all of these
LETSystems under one umbrella at some future date. In this
regard, I am inviting anyone who is prepared to launch a
local LETSystem to contact Tommy-Usury: Free
<tom@...> who is currently working with a
software engineer to adapt the 'usuryfree' LETS software to
permit we-the-people to trade our UFOH's (UsuryFree Online
Hours) as we exchange our goods and/or services in our daily
living experiences. Watch for future postings at
www.thirdmarket.net In the meantime, we are posting
background details at the Third Market Cyberclassroom:
www.cyberclass.net/thirdmarket.htm
----

Notable Quotes:
"Every loan is pregnant with usury... and usury is the
genetic seed of servitude" Dr. Edward Ayoub
"None of us are FREE of usury until all of us are FREE of
usury." Tommy-Usury: Free

St Ambrose understood the implications of 'usury' when he
wrote: "From him demand usury, whom you desire to harm. From
him exact usury, whom it would not be a crime to kill. Where
there is a right of war, there also is a right of usury."

'Why should we-the-people continue to use their (the
bankers') money and continue paying them a FEE (usury) when
we can now create and spend our own 'usuryfree' time
currency for FREE?' Tommy-Usury: Free

JCT: Great article Tom, worthy of being spread to all the
lists.
=====

4) JimFor: Modern US Banking Question....
-----------------------------------------
>From: John Turmel (bc726@...)
>Subject: TURMEL: Modern US Banking Question....
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.john-turmel, can.politics, sci.econ,
sci.engr, alt.politics.greens, alt.politics.usa.misc,
alt.conspiracy
>Date: 2002-07-31 20:14:06 PST

JimFor (jimfor@...) writes:
> If  US banks lend money to large corporations  in a "less
> than honest"  fashion by setting up those loans to look
> like legitimate profitable transactions when in fact these
> transactions are actually huge loans and these
> corporations are in such poor shape they can never pay off
> those loans and will default on the loans and the banks
> will have to write off the loans, whose money is being
> lent out? And can I get the same banking privileges?

JCT: Banks lend out new money, new poker chips, not
depositors savings.
See http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm to see an
engineering model of the flows from the tap to the drain (of
liquidity) with plumbing and electrical circuits.

And you need to know a banker authorized to turn on the tap
for you to get those same banking privileges of loans of
newmoney you never have to pay back.

But look at the bright side. When they declare bankruptcy in
their mortgage, they money they lost was used by others in
the same death-gamble bind to pay off their debts. Like the
gamblerMahonry who deposited loans to fictitious accounts
and then blew the money in Vegas. No depositor lost any
funds. It was all newly created loans. And others used that
newly created money to survive their mort-gage death-
gambles.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:11:11 -0400
>From: dlj@... (David Lloyd-Jones)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Debate vs Bernard "The Banker" Lietaer
>To: TURMEL@... (John Turmel)

John Turmel wrote:
>Community Currency backed by Energy

DLJ: John, This is silly at the level of basic epistemology.
A currency needs a backing like a wallaby needs a pram.

JCT: Alert to all gamblers. Who wants to go play at David
Lloyd Jones' casino where he thinks the chips need a backing
like a wallaby needs a pram. Har har har har. Trade me your
car for something that says "worth nothing?"

Normally I'd cull my archives to see if DLJ and I have
tangled before at the sci.econ USENET newsgroup where I and
my LETS software have ruled the banking systems engineering
topic unchallenged for the past dozen years, but this is so
inane that I'll just point out that Jones is a regular
contributor to sci.econ. Imagine

DLJ: Why aren't cabbages backed by gold in the Reichsbank?

JCT: Because they're backed by vegetable value inherent in
the substance. What a foolish question from an esteemed
economist.

DLJ: Because they circulate in the market on their own as
people judge their value case by case. Same thing for
dollars or Reichsmarken. -dlj.

JCT: And the fact they build in an instability to cause
changes in the value of the unit of measure doesn't seem to
faze our expert in "rubber ruler" measurement. As I've
always pointed out, there's nothing so stupid as trying to
measure something with a variable, a rubber ruler, and
knowing the value of a stable cabbage in my neighbor's
judgment is a derivative simpler than trying to know the
value of a dollar or reichmarken in their eyes. Another
pretty dense contribution from an "elastic currency"
advocate.

>From: ijccr@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:32:48 EDT
>From: Peacebewyu@...
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Debate vs Bernard "The Banker" Lietaer
in Germany July?

JF: Turmel, Why are you so mean spirited and disrespectful?

JCT: Because the non-suspect moneylender agent has twigged
my Judas Goat antenna.

I'm the consulting engineer who put my stamp of approval on
Michael Linton's 1/s LETS software and financed its software
development for freeware distribution to the world.

I've done the only advanced engineering mathematics analysis
of the banking system in the world which has occasioned my
entry into the Guinness Book of Records for its promotion
leading to my invitation to make a presentation on a UNILETS
to the Millennium Assembly which was accepted and reflected
in the Millennium Declaration Resolution C6 to Government to
restructure the global financial architecture with an
alternative time-based currency.

And he's never bothered to stay abreast of most recent
technology.

Is this professionalism? Is this a man looking for the best
solution? the optimum solution? the winning solution?

And he's being lionized by the "community currency" and
mainstream media for his work in banking systems
engineering?

It's just like Canada's foremost anti-prohibition lawyer,
Alan Young, was shown working with the government to
maintain prohibition for another year and half successfully,
and just like I've found a whole nest of rats at the top of
the whole pro-medpot hierarchy of organizations successfully
leading any legitimate supporters astray, including the four
top pro-medpot magazines.

And just like the 50 Years is Enough group at 50years.org
have suppressed every mention of the LETS anti-poverty
system as they lead the anti-poverty demonstrators to
violent protest-obstruction rather than peaceful protest-
instruction, my picketing trade-mark. To see how they worked
suppressing the UNILETS idea from the anti-bank movement,
see http://yahoogroups.com/group/a16-accommodations

So I'd expect that the whole "community currency" movement
to be loaded with Judas Goats at the top like the marijuana
movement.

I've been fighting the Terry Cottams of the LETS world for
two decades. The ones who infiltrated the systems and made
sure they didn't really go wild like they did for a while
before sabotage in Argentina. The guys sent in to apply the
brakes, to get them to drive in reverse.

How many times have I derided the demurrage crowd for
wanting to introduce an destabled exponential feedback when
they can't even cope with what could be a stable linear no-
feedback mode of the poker chip model? Sabopterus

How many times have I derided those who insist on high
accounting costs by not using handy tradable tokens?
Saboteurs.

How many times have I derided those who insist on no large
corporations? They don't want Coca Cola accepting timemoney?
Saboteurs.

Jon Chance, Cal Schindel, Tom Greco, and others who propose
anything to keep your minds off going with the UNILETS
that's already on the UN agenda. Saboteurs. I've watched
them talk every other crooked direction but straight to
linearity. That's why engineers build straight buildings and
these guys are staying with the crooked banks.

JF: What good does it do?

JCT: Go see the archives at my distribution only medpot
list, not the medpot-discuss list, at do a search for "what
good" that my brutalizing Alan Young's reputation for his
treason on the net divided up the medpot movement into two
camps. Those supporting Alan Young's stated goal to "ensure
that Turmel's motion to invalidate the law (Prohibition)
does not proceed," and those supporting that it proceed
which it is.

They kept screaming Turmel's splitting up the movement. We
must work together. And I responded then as I respond now, I
want to know who the saboteurs are because I don't want to
work with them. I want the Schindels, Grecos, Lietaers of
the money reform world shunned as the bankers agents they
appear to be. And it's going to take one song and dance by
any of them to get out of my indictment. When the UNILETS is
inevitably installed, they're not getting any invitations
the the UN Party.

JF: Do you really think you are going to advance your agenda
in this way?

JCT: By busting up their cozy little conference of his
"community currency" cohorts? You bet. I'm going to do a
lecture tour of Europe the month leading up to the
conference so whether I'm banned or not, the battle will be
engaged. My last tour which can be read at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/lp.htm started with two
speaking engagements and ended up in 22 over 40 days,
organized as I travelled and non-efficiently criss-crossing
the continent. I have no doubt I'll be able to pack at least
one UNILETS presentation per day hoping people attend the
main conference to find out why none of these esteemed money
reform advocates has never in 3 years endorsed the UNILETS.

JF: or are you just trying to gratify your own ego?

JCT: That is the standard next question from you guys. Sure,
being in the Anthology of Great Canadian Characters, the
Guinness Book of Records, Millennium Declaration author,
author of TajProfessor's Turmel2Step Poker Pot-Odds system,
and expecting a few Nobel Prizes for my LETS work, calling
Bernard a Bankster doesn't come close to gratifying my ego.

But while 100,000 people who could be saved by a UNILETS
account with which to purchase the over-abundant food
rotting in high-tech first-world fields continue to die
every single day, that may be a slightly larger concern than
just my ego. Wouldn't it be for you. A chance to save 100k a
day.

Did I fight to reprogram the killer computer for ego or to
save 100k a day? No one will ever know. Sure, knowing I
proposed the UNILETS will save the world from the looming
ecological catastrophe by liberating the optimal human power
on production and away from destruction is an ego booster.
But if you look at my early press clippings, I boasted I
knew I'd get mine for my LETS work with 3 Nobels back in
1980 or 1981.  Wow, I've had an ego for a quarter century,
even while everyone was laughing at Turmel and his interest-
free banking system. "Who'd lend money without getting
interest?" every dolt who had never considered that the
first printer, not saver, of it should.

So sure, I can boast about the successes of interest-free
1/s LETS currency models and Bernard can't boast about
anything, not even knowing what a 1/s currency model means.

JF: What the world needs is love, compassion and respect.

JCT: Love, compassion and respect for the moles who score on
our own team, who fumble the ball on purpose, not a chance.
I'm going to call Alan Young Judas to his face and to the
Court next time we meet and for the rest of his life.
There's no compassion, respect possible until he stops his
sabotage and asks forgiveness for what he did to Terry
Parker and the 3600 extra dead epileptics he caused by
delaying the legalisation of their medicine in secret
collusion with the government.

Same here. Actually, my Judas Goat antenna got pulsed,
rather than twigged, by our learned banker's eight bettable
errors in 13 lines. Here's a proponent saying saying our
system can't do the job while the engineer who did the
blueprint says it can. If a low-tech like him dare oppose a
high-tech like me, he deserves what he gets for not only
being wrong but leading some astray.

JF: An improved money system that reflects these qualities
will follow from the fulfillment of the more profound need
for improvement in the way human beings manifest these
qualities in general.

JCT: You can wait for your improved money system to follow
something. I want my ideal, perfect, no-make-better-ever,
money system switched on now. You're another D-student in my
math, aren't you. Admit it to everyone, you never made it
all the way through. You'd have loved to but you didn't get
it if you think improvement is what I've been talking about.

JF: As long as people express a vindictive heart as you do
on a frequent basis, babies will continue to starve no
matter how many brilliant engineers apply themselves to the
task of designing better money systems.

JCT: And as long as you and the Lietaers of the world advise
waiting for improvement rather than going for perfection,
they will not only continue to starve but never escape it. I
want the world to know you are impediments to saving our
planet by a funding system that can pay ourselves to save
ourselves.

JF: Because the PEOPLE won't follow.

JCT: I don't care about the manufactured consent of the
sheeple Bernard and his crowd have kept in disarray. I will
effect the upgrading of the world banking system to the
UNILETS software as relentlessly as Mr. Spock did the same
thing to save untold planets with the better software in
exactly the same way. Don't you see the parallels? How many
times did Spoke reprogram the killer computer and the whole
world then worked fine. I have understood from the start of
my "Abolish Interest Rates" Project that all I had to do was
reprogram the banks' killer computers and the whole world
financial system would then work fine. Too simple.

JF: It's not the brilliant ideas that are gonna inspire
people... after your famous 25 years of promoting your ideas
maybe you will soon begin to understand this.

JCT: I'm not trying to inspire people. 99.999% of the
world's population will get their interest-free bank
accounts and bank cards without having known I had been on
the project for 25 years. Suddenly, a truck drives up to the
starving child in the middle of some desert, says "put your
X here for your interest-free account," and the food and
clothing are coming on the next trucks for you to buy. Hope
you don't mind the surcharge for "rush delivery." I'm fixing
my world whether you like what I'm doing or not. I'm going
to fight until I'm liberated to use God's healthiest herb.
I'm going to fight until I'm liberated to do anything I want
(as long as it doesn't not impinge on others). And I don't
need no groups full of moles backing me up to do it.

There is nothing more dangerous to them than personal
initiative for if it has genius behind it, it can do more
than can be done by the millions amongst whom we've sown
discord. Those half a dozen medpotters supporting me in
public are helping do more than the half-a-dozen million
medpotters amongst whom the four major cannabis magazines
have sown discord.

Same with the writings of Greco, Chance, Schindel, Lietaer,
and anyone who will not admit the ideal nature of UNILETS.
As far as I'm concerned, UNILETS is too simple to understand
for resistance to be based on simple ignorance or stupidity.
Their resistance to UNILETS smacks of just more Judas Goats
leading the real supporters to ineffectiveness and disarray.

JF: Kindness will work better.

JCT: Not to moles and saboteurs who would keep us in debt
chains longer than I could get us out.

JF: It's gotta flow from the heart or we are going nowhere.

JCT: It flows from the heart. Anyone who does not support
UNILETS raises immediate suspicions of stupidity or worse
treachery. Sorry if the fact you don't get UNILETS puts you
in one of those categories. But step up to defend the bad
guys and you deserve to share their smear.

JF: Best wishes, Jeff Fairhall

JCT: Hoping you switch course real fast, I'm just too sick
of having moles and morons pop up in every reform movement
I've ever worked in. Luckily, I engineering on alone or with
help but it's not becoming the world's great moment of
truth.

Are you in favor of restructuring the global financial
architecture with an UNILETS interest-free time-based
currency as proposed in the Millennium Declaration C6?

Best wishes too if you answer right. If not, then battle is
joined.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>From: bernard lietaer <blietaer@...>
>Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 18:22:56 +0200
>Subject: [ijccr] Re: Are you on this list Bernard? - Fw:
Community Currency backed by Energy

BL: Dear Helen and Alf, This is indeed an intriguing idea,
but there are two limitations:

JCT: I've been talking about energy-backed currency for 25
years, whether E=m*c^2 or E=Pt, and he's just now become
intrigued. I guess he wasn't kidding when he told a
correspondent that he had never looked at my advanced
banking systems engineering analysis. Do former bankers find
flow-charts too hard?

He's just learning about what we've been discussing all
along. And he thinks there are limitations.

Assuming that the United Nations version of UNILETS
interest-free time-based (energy) currency from Resolution
C6 to governments in the Millennium Declaration were
instituted, let's delve into our timid banker's first foray
into banking systems engineering. Then again, he's never
supported the UNILETS in all these years and I must thank
Helen and Alf for drawing him out of his hole so we learn
where he stands.

BL: 1. Buying a solar pannel will require dollars or Euros
or some form of national currency.

JCT: In Argentina, I'd bet a farmer's community currency IOU
will buy those solar panels a lot faster than the national
Argentinian currency since it's currency that buys tractors
and cars from GM, Ford and Monsanto for everyone in the
nation who possesses it too. Banker's Error #1: Stable 1/s
currency proven superior to 1/(s-i) national model. Banker
picked the loser model.

BL: As far as I know, no community makes solar panels...

JCT: Someone does somewhere. Hope the confusion of Banker's
Error #2 has now been remedied. Solar panels are
manufactured in some community somewhere.

BL: So rather than a community project it would make more
sense to do this in the conventional economy rather than in
the complementary currency mechanism.

JCT: The Argentinians have come to trust their crop currency
economy over over the conventional money economy. Banker's
Error #3. It would make more sense to to this in the
complementary currency mechanism than the conventional
economy. Banker #3 has it directly backward and picked the
loser model again.

As for the superiority of conventional currency over UNILETS
energy notes, that's Banker's Error #4. Farmer's community
credit notes are working in Argentina while the conventional
economy sits broken. Banker picked the broken model again.

As for preferring a conventional interest-bearing currency
system over an interest-free community currency system,
that's Banker's Error #5. Banker picked the unstable model,
again.

BL: By the way, in Germany for example, there are
advantageous tax incentives created by the government so
that people invest in windmills2.

JCT: Interest-free financing is a highly superior form of
funding than tax incentives which involve taking from the
tax-payers. That's Banker's Error #6. Banker picked the less
efficient model, again.

And it means that he does not see the advantage of paying
government expenses with interest-free currency up front and
then taxing back at the end of the cycle versus the
presently stupid system he endorses of taxing up front and
budgeting out scarce funding. Banker's Error #7 Banker
picked the backward model. Again.

BL If someone is willing to lend someone national currency
at no interest to buy a solar panel, wouldn't it make more
sense that he or she puts that solar panel on their own
house or land rather than on someone else's?

JCT: So accepting an automated shortage of funds, who would
lend someone national currency which is kept in short supply
when they can keep it and profit for themselves? Always the
money-lender's sop to their own misgivings. Trying to live
within an artificial shortage of funds established by the
orthodox banking system is Banker's Error #8. Banker picked
the shylock model, again.

BL: Best, Bernard

JCT: Your best is a dud Bernard. Your best is a flaming
worst. Imagine, in only 13 lines, 8 challenges. Eight
stupendous inanities from a supposed money system
engineering specialist who is giving one of the talks at the
big "Community Currency Conference" in Germany this July!
Har har har har. I think I'll go too.

Imagine, they call this guy a "community currency" reformer.
Sounds like another Judas Goat to me. Sounds like Bernard is
to the LETS banking systems engineering world what Alan
Young is to the Cannabis Prohibition Abolition world. That's
not good news. Then again it is.

As the LETS consulting engineer, I delivered the UNILETS
community currency presentation to the United Nations for
good reason. Imagine had they invited Bernard!

So I challenge you, Bernard Lietar, former central banker,
to a debate on the above challenges to your misunderstanding
of banking systems engineering at the German LETS conference
this July.

And I bet you 100 Euros that I win each point on an audience
show of hands.

Invictus

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: It was a beautiful spring day in which to let George
Bush know that I thought he'd committed a crime. There were
anti-war demos all around the planet and one in Ottawa which
I attended.

It started on Parliament Hill, scene of my 5 years of
picketing Parliament over interest rates after picketing the
Bank of Canada every Thursday when they announced the new
death rate for the mort-gage death-gambles of Canadians.

As I approached the Centennial Flame, an older RCMP officer
came over to say hi since we hadn't seen each other in
almost 20 years. He'd dragged a younger officer along to
introduce him and I gave them a couple of my flyers with my
1982 IMF-World Bank arrest in Toronto, the Argentina
provincial bond currency story and a few other tid-bits.

There were about 1000 people comprising two city blocks of
marchers. I had prepared my signs that morning:

SIDE A:
War = Bloodshed
Banks finance
bloody war
Nuke the Banks.

SIDE B:
WANTED
Bush Outlaw Gang
for [picture of bombed child]
J.C. "The Sheriff" Turmel

I also found out today that the Butcher of Bagdad Jr., is
coming to Ottawa on May 5 so I can let him know how I want
him charged with crimes for what he ordered done without
sufficient reason.

There was a loony in the crowd who knew I was The Gambler
and when I mentioned to a few younger people that I had the
5 biggest medical marijuana cases going on in the country to
abolish prohibition that he started calling me a murderer
for advocating marijuana and gambling. That was too nutso
for even me to deal with so I told him to come back to
challenge me when he'd gotten himself an education after
they restart his remedial classes. I called him uninformed
and a dolt for being willing to give us those uninformed
opinions in public. He left the arena with his tail between
his legs.

But the kids all loved the legal marijauna crusade and one
guy introduced himself as having participated in the old
LeDain Commission hearings. When I asked him why it hadn't
been implemented, he had no answer. Then I told him of the
exciting time we'd have with Terry Parker, how the Court had
ruled it had to be fixed for him within a year, but how
they'd blown it a year later by leaving Parker unprotected.
Then getting Justice Pitt to extend Parker's protection
"until the Government has complied with the Court's ruling."

Then I explained how we gone back to declare the law dead on
the basis that Justice Pitt had said the government had not
complied with the court's ruling. He was as excited as he
should have been. Then I explained how the Crown introduced
Medpot Champion Lawyer Alan Young to tell the judge it
wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and have the Pitt
decision set aside and they did.

Of course, he was completely shocked. He knows Alan Young. I
could tell. So I continued and explained how Parker had
appealed for his protection to the Court of Appeal and how
the Crown had once again introduced Young to scuttle Terry's
case. Again, the guy looked in a shocked panic.

Finally, I told him how Terry had returned before Justice
McWatt and how the Crown had once again introduced the Alan
Young to get Parker application delayed once again. How Alan
Young had delayed the motion to invalidate the law from
April to September. Anyway, the man was speechless and I
could explain that I'd found moles like Young at the top of
the whole pro-medpot hierarchy, Marc Emery, Marc-Boris St-
Maurice, all Young allies and traitors to the movement. And
I told him to check http://www.medpot.net for the
verification.

Boy did I enjoy exposing Alan Young's betrayals to a former
fan. Imagine now that he's being built up by so many
magazines, Emery's Cannabis Culture, St-Maurice's Heads,
High Times, that there will be many many more people I'll be
able to completely discombobulate with the truth about their
hero's collusion with the Government attorneys to damage
Parker's case.

What fun. And the more they think he's a hero, the more
disappointed they'll be in him and his media flunkies when
they find out the truth. Seeing the shock on a former Young
fan's face really makes shivving his reputation in public an
enjoyable, even more enjoyable, pastime than gutting him on
the net. At least I get to see the incredulity and then
disgust in their eyes I can only imagine for readers on the
net.

Sorry for digressing to beating up Alan Young but it's just
so therapeutic to let it all out against someone who did you
wrong and never said they were sorry. Back to demo.

They had some speakers, some young speakers, denouncing the
war. After the speeches, I stayed by the Flame as the
marchers went by out the gate for their parade to the US
Embassy. They turned right down Wellington. So when the last
marcher had gone by, I continued up to Sparks and then deked
over to intercept them at Sparks and O'Connor. Found myself
a pretty comfortable group of newspaper boxes to sit on
twirling my placard as they went by. I think most people
enjoyed the "Nuke the Banks" after I'd quip "First good use
for nuclear weapons and I thought of it first."

When the bombed baby was facing the crowd, I asked for the
right to draft the indictment. I wanted the chance to
prosecute Bush. Someone pointed out I should include Blair
and I had to admit that the world gave Americans immunity
from the World Court so that Blair could be charged with war
crimes but not Bush. At least we can accuse him until he
feels bad about it. And a few years or decades down the
road, I'll still be demanding Bush be prosecuted. Pinochet
didn't get away with his government's killings, why should
Bush?

After they'd gone by, I walked back down Sparks to Elgin to
intercept them at Queen Street. I was starting to get to
know quite a few of the people going by. After they'd gone
by and were proceeding over the bridge in front of National
Defence, I ducked around via the Congress center to appear
up the stairs at the bridge just as they started to go by.
People must have been wondering how I kept popping up
without ever walking ahead of them. I use doubles?

After they'd gone by, I ducked down the stairs and cut under
the Congress center to intercept them on Waller Street.
Always lots of fun by now as the friendlies went by. Only 1
unfriendly in the whole crowd.

After they'd gone by veering over to Dalhousie, I cut up
through a little lane to get over to intercept them at their
turn at York toward the US Embassy.

Once they'd gone by, I joined the proceeding but cut off at
the next street to them intercept them just at the base of
the US embassy on Sussex and Clarence Street. After they'd
gone by, but then stopped in front of the embassy for
speechers, I mounted the side stairs and want around the
back so I could then get to the front for another pass when
the speeches were through.

And old Ottawa police officer came over to say hi. He hadn't
busted me in 20 years and it was nice to know that the raids
on Casino Turmel were highlights in their careers too.

Finally, the marchers started again, turning the corner at
St Patrick onto Mackenzie Ave. down to the Chateau Laurier.
This time I had to just walk fast to get ahead of the march
and found myself a high perch on Parliament's picket fence.
It had larger pylons every now and then and I'd guess I was
a good 10 feet above the crowd hanging on pretty
precariously and hoping no one had it in for me. No one did.
And finally, we ended up on Parliament Hill again. The bongo
and drum beaters were going strong and a dozen teens were
dancing to chanting "Saddam, Osama, Pinochet, all created by
the CIA." Made my heart all aflutter as I realized these
kids were more aware of the bad guys than their brain-dead
(conditions, hypnotized, etc.) parents.

Reminds me of Steven Seagal's greatest movie "Above the Law"
when he tells his old "company" buddy "You know as well as I
do that the bankers own the CIA." Wow. Loved his movies ever
since, even the less philosophical.

When there was a lull, I asked if I could do a little poetry
so they handed me the mike and I did my two favorites, the
Rich man and the Plates.

RICH MAN SAYS

"Because I have a million bucks, I sit upon my stern,
And leave my living tranquilly for other folks to earn,
For in some pro-creative way that isn't very clear,
A million bucks will breed a hundred thousand every year.
So as I have a healthy hate of economic strife,
I mean to stand aloof from it the balance of my life.
And yet, with sympathy, I see the grimy son of toil,
And heartily congratulate the tiller of the soil.
I like the miner in the mine, the sailor on the sea,
Because up to a hundred grand they sail and mine for me.
For me, their toil is taxed unto the annual extent,
According to the ancient law that gets me ten percent.
So get a million bucks, my friend, in any way you can,
And leave your future welfare to the noble Working Man.
He'll buy you suits of Harris tweed, an Airedale and a car,
Your golf clubs and your morning Times, your whiskey and cigar.
He'll cozily install you in a cottage by a stream,
With every modern comfort and a garden that's a dream.
Or if your tastes be urban, he'll provide you with a flat,
Secluded from the clamor of the proletariat.
With pictures, music, easy chairs, a table of good cheer,
A guy can manage nicely on a hundred grand a year.
And though around you painful signs of industry you view,
Why should you work when you can have your money work for you?
So I'll get down upon my knees and bless the Working Man,
Who offers me a life of ease through all my mortal span;
Whose loins are lean to make me fat, who slaves to keep me free,
Who dies before his prime to get me round the century.
Whose wife and children toil in turn until their strength is spent,
That I may live in idleness upon my ten percent.
And if at times they curse me, why should I feel any blame,
For in my place, I know that they would do the very same.
They talk of revolution on a Sunday afternoon,
But offer them a million bucks and see them change their tune.
So, I'll enjoy my dividends and live my life with zest,
And bless the mighty men who first invented interest."

I got a good round of applause so when I asked if they wanted another
one, it was cheered on.

HAVING THE PLATES IS BEST

When you were little, did you ever dream of printing cash?
Of filling up your wallet with some money in a flash?
Creating money accurately means TO HAVE THE PLATES,
The stamping of some paper into notes best demonstrates;
Or stamping metal into coins; or blips computerized,
Into your bank account deposits, checks now authorized.
So whether paper, metal, volts of electricity,
TO HAVE THE PLATES is printing money absolutely free.

Now if you printed to spend, the others would bewail,
They'd call it counterfeiting and send you off to jail.
But what if Crown would let you merely print it up to lend?
With only what you could collect in interest to spend?
If you could print and lend a thousand out at ten percent,
You'd make a hundred interest on printing that you lent.
But if you could print up and lend a million out you'd get,
An extra hundred thousand dollars for your fee on debt!

If Crown stops using its own money plates and comes to you,
A billion printed nets a hundred million revenue!!
With everybody being taxed to pay you interest,
Of all the scams in history, TO HAVE THE PLATES is best!!!
Though never spending, only lending, riches do await,
To all who with the plates become the loan-sharks to the state.
And though to join the few who thusly profit, one might dream,
Wake up to see we're all the victims of their greedy scheme.

While Crowns of old had ruled that "Treasury run money plates,"
Without the interest to middle-men at rip-off rates,
Today most governments to banking industry have lost,
Control of money plates so interest is now a cost.
To service debt in ninety nine, Canada's request,
Three hundred'n twenty billion dollars paid in interest.
We're taxed almost a thousand dollars each per month to pay,
For interest to holders of our plates they gave away!!!

We Abolitionists would get the plates back from the banks,
Have Treasury create the money for printing charge and thanks.
The interest we save could be split up I recommend,
For each to get a thousand dollars monthly dividend,
As if you owned a share in the incorporated state,
An income guaranteed for life, no question, no debate.
So would you agree control of money plates by private banks should
end,
With all that interest diverted to your monthly dividend?

JCT: The moment of truth. I knew from experience that the
average adult rarely answers but the average teen gets it
right away. I ended the question by lowering my head and
waiting to see if they would respond. I almost gushed when
there was huge roar "yes."

I ended, "That's the rip-off, that's what I want back. Thank
you."

So let's hope I struck them as so odd that they go home and
try to find out what I'm about on the net.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

1) Dr. Michael: needs room in Vancouver & Calgary
2) Norrah Wallachy: Where can I spent my lets money?
3) Marcel Dignard: Head they Win tail we lose
4) Forum Social Europeen de Florence (6/10 nov 2002)

1) Dr. Michael: needs room in Vancouver & Calgary
-----------------------------------------------------

JCT: I must apologize to Dr. Michael <peuckert> Homestead
who sent this message last month to my small UNILETS-info
group that I didn't notice until now.

>From: michaelpeuckert  <drmichaelshomestead@...>
>Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:40pm
>Subject: TRAVEL TO CANADA AND GERMANY

M: Hello
I will be travelling to Canada in late April, staying in
Vancouver and Calgary, for a few days, then on to Germany
for 3 weeks. I would like to stay using timecurrency.

JCT: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/urlsnat.htm have the
URLS in our NATion for Vancouver and Calgary. Some LETSers
from there may be tuned into one of my LETS lists and
contact you first, I hope.

M: I offer accommodation in Australia and would like to see
how it works.

JCT: That's the deal. All you have to do is start a web page
like my rudimentary web page where I post my LETS records
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/unilets.htm

On it, you can advertise the accommodation you wish to
offer, and anything else. And then, you can post your IOUs
to those people who have hosted you as I did. Or you can
actually sign over a note worth a night in your LETS they
can pass around. With your email address on the note, it's
just another valid for of registering your commitment to
return.

M: I would like to add that I am a member of several barter
systems in Australia including the local Tamborine Mountain
LETS where I have a credit in LETS units.

JCT: What a great reference.

M: The local currency is zamias equivalent to $1 Australian.
How do I convert these to timeshare?
Dr Michael

JCT: What is the "agreed-upon" number of Zamias for a basic
adult hour of unskilled work? In the States, it's $10
Greendollars. In the UK, it was #6 Greenpounds. In Germany,
it was 20 Greenmarks, in France, it was 60 Francs-verts, in
Canada, 12 Greendollars, etc. If the Australian dollar is
anywhere near the Canadian dollar, then I'd bet that $12
Greendollars per hour would be close to an ample wage there
too!

But with your own accommodations to offer, forget what you
have already earned in the past, your credit on what you can
deliver in the future is solid. So your credit can not only
be based on what you've scored in the past but also what you
offer in the future. Nice, eh?

PS: There was one lady who travelled and earned barter
credits for her accommodations by cooking specialized
national feasts. Can you barter the odd medical exam in your
travels?

Regardless, Dr. Michael's offer is now reaching most of the
influential LETS time-traders in the world. Can we not pull
together to cause the genesis of something beautiful?

Anyone know time-traders in Vancouver and Calgary, give them
a prod. We want to make this work for the Doctor and then
for the rest of us too. As quickly as possible.
=====

2) Norrah Wallachy: Where can I spent my lets money?
-----------------------------------------------------

>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 03:16:36 -0500
>From: norrahw@... (Norrah Wallachy)
>Subject: where can I spent my lets money?
Hello, we have had a couple of hundred dollars in lets money
since 1995 where can I spend them? be sure to visit
Scavenger's website at scavenger.fcpages.com

JCT: If you help Dr. Mike find himself a room in Vancouver
or Calgary, I'd bet you can spend them right away to stay at
Dr. Mike's place in Australia; and probably in any other
LETS Dr. Mike belongs to in Australia; and probably any
other LETS in Australia; and hopefully, by now, any other
LETS in the world that understands that your home-town LETS
can back your credits in the same way.
====

3) Marcel Dignard: Head they Win tail we lose
----------------------------------------------

>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 04:40:38 -0500
>From: beaucourt@... (Mary and Marcel)
>Subject: Head they Win tail we lose
MD: Hi, My name is Marcel Dignard. I enjoyed your article on
how interest rates are in direct correlation with inflation.

JCT: You've got that right. Raising interest rates does not
reduce inflation, it causes it.

MD: As usual, what we hear on the news is the exact opposite
of reality. People are fooled into the opposite through
context dropping. When government pours money into the
economy (they never have to pay principle or interests back
other than through taxes etc.) it creates inflation while
destroying private enterprises through destructive
competition.

JCT: Oops. This is not right. Inflation can't ever be too
much money in a world with inflation caused by seizure after
foreclosure due to not enough money. Can't have both Shift A
and Shift B inflation at the same time. See
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/biglie.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

MD: Interest rates fight inflation the same way nitrogen
mustard gas (chemotherapy) fights cancer - by killing the
body while enriching the doctor.

JCT: No, interest rates cause inflation so they fight
inflation the same way gasoline will douse a flame.

MD: From this, economists jump to the conclusion that higher
interest rates reduce inflation by reducing loans???

JCT: They certainly do believe that since inflation is Shift
A, "too much money", then raising interest rates will deter
people from increasing the monetary mass by borrowing more
into circulation. Once you accept that inflation we are
suffering is Shift B, then raising interest is understood to
be folly.

MD: The fact is that private loans and public loans are not
the same. Private loans and public loans both cause
inflation but by opposite means. Public loans are not repaid
by government while private loans are repaid by individuals.

JCT: In a world where there is always less money than there
is debt, either private loans or public loans would cause
inflation to go down in much the same way the issuance of
government bond money in Argentina in the mid-1980s worried
bankers about increasing interest rates from the already
1000% a year when in fact, the issuance brought inflation
down to 36% a year which can only occur in shift B inflation
situations. (enslavements)

MD: polarization

The secret weapon of the parasite class is their uncanny
ability to create polarization. Left wing and right wing
politics is an example of the two sides of the wooden
nickel. Polarization distracts from the law of causality.

Inflation is the result of polarization in debit or
polarization in credit of the unilateral trade instruments.
In other words, the total credit issued (bought) must equal
the total backed (sold). You see, in order to have zero
inflation we must have all unilateral instruments canceled
out to zero through trade. (a bilateral instrument is when
commodities are traded) Any imbalance on the plus or minus
side will have to be made up by those who trade.

JCT: Agreed that when ever receipt for collateral is backed
up by the stated collateral, no inflation can occur.

MD: If the amount of trade issued is greater than the amount
backed as it is with government "free money" we get a
polarization on the credit side (an unbacked unilateral
instrument is counterfeit money).

JCT: Nobody wants them to issue chips without the cashiers
first receiving the collateral.

MD: Government back little or none of the money issued when
buying. They hoard property and create destructive
competition. Through taxes and through having to compete
with less resources (because government had to issue money
by buying up property and services), the private sector has
to raise prices.

JCT: Sorry but the only reason the private sector has to
raise prices unjustly is because of their payment for
money's time. Since money does not work like the payment of
people's time in backing up the value of a good.

MD: If the amount issued is less than the amount backed, as
is the case with private loans, we end up with an
undervalued unilateral trade instrument. The individual has
to back his unilateral trade instrument plus the interest
accrued. Since the interest accrued was never issued, it
causes an imbalance on the debit side. An overbacked
unilateral instrument does the same damage to the economy as
counterfeit does. The individual has to back the money
issued plus the interest and passes the cost to the buyer
causing inflation.

JCT: Finally, yes, passing the interest cost to the consumer
generates the shift B inflation. Nothing else though. With
no interest, all receipts simple remain receipts for what
they say they are worth. Like poker chips.

MD: The game is called heads we win tails you lose. Both
types of polarization are grand larceny as one's property is
taken away by overvaluing and undervaluing the trade
instruments.

Another form of inflation that is created is through
products that are of poor quality. Shoddy workmanship and
lazy work also contribute to inflation as buyers get less
for their money. In a free- market such inflationary
tendencies tend to be negative.

JCT: It's not "another form of" imbalance. There are only
two forms of imbalance, Shift A due to too much money, and
shift B due to not enough money to pay the total debt.

MD: I am truly impressed with your LETS program and your
non-mystical approach in creating a non-polarized system of
exchange. It is not polarized as the total debits to credits
will ideally equal zero. Individuals using your system are
less likely to hoard "credit" as the credit will not have a
commodity value (in of themselves) leaving their accounts at
close to zero depending upon the profession i.e. turn over
rate between buying and selling.

JCT: Actually, the only reason people do hoard in a LETS is
to avoid the stigma of being in the negative. As Tom
Kennedy's LETS experiment with his Grade 5 class showed, no
one wanted to be the first spender on credit. All wanted to
earn first before spending. It's a honorable human trait.

Of course, once people have played musical chairs with money
out in the real world long enough, their hearts grow cold
and many want to get before giving, just to be sure they
don't get cheated.

MD: In today's system, people are brainwashed into thinking
that their bank notes are a commodity in of themselves so
they think usury fees are warranted. The systems oscillates
between extremes of communist government and fascist
capitalist government. As long as people ignore the cause of
strife (traders not issuing their own money) they will live
in poverty and war.

JCT: Actually, the greatest inducement to make people
believe they should pay interest on loans is the belief they
are getting some hard worker's savings. They'd want interest
on their hard-earned savings and expect everyone else would
want interest on theirs too. That's why it's so important to
keep people believing that banks lend out their depositors
funds like piggy banks and not the truth that banks lend out
and loanshark brand new money like casino banks.

MD: Once one makes the distinction between bilateral trade
instruments (gold, gold certificates, objects) and
unilateral trade instruments such as (fiat, social credit
etc.), they will see that usury is the limiting factor in
trade and industry today.

JCT: And the only way to make anti-social credit sociable
again is to abolish the interest that makes social credit so
anti-social.

MD: I learned the difference between fiat (unilateral trade
instrument) and counterfeit by reading Private Enterprise
Money by E.C. Riegle 1944. Although the book is a few years
old , the principles are as valid today as they were then.
He also made some very prophetic comments regarding
communism and fascism http://www.mind-trek.com/treatise/ecr-
pem/index.htm

JCT: But I'm pretty sure Reigel thought inflation was Shift
A so he could probably not have focused in the right
solution, the abolition of usury on loans.

MD: I used to be very confused about the meaning of money. I
was always under the impression that money had to be a
certificate or a receipt for an existing value or commodity
(bilateral trade instrument). Now, I realize that money is a
unilateral trade instrument that is issued upon buying and
backed at a latter time by selling. A unilateral trade
instrument can only be issued by the buyer/ producer so it
would be absurd to charge oneself interest.

JCT: Dr. Popp called money a "document," my favorite next to
receipt.

MD: The modern banking system is the same as the mystical
"higher power" nonsense of serfdom. It is in direct
opposition to any forms of democracy, freedom or free-
enterprise. In this case the individual unwittingly gives up
his power to trade. The banker is fooling people into
believing that the credit they are getting is a commodity.

Your LETS system is perfect in trading with money. I think
that the confusion between money/commodity and unilateral /
bilateral trade instruments might be a limiting factor in
getting more people involved in LETS.

JCT: It sure is hard to get people to understand it's as
trivial as poker chips when they give out PhDs for studies
in LETS doing it right! If you told any poker player that
someone had received a PhD for an essay on poker chips,
you'd get laughed out of the room.

MD: Do you have any articles that explains and defines money
in simple terms? People with MBA's do not even seem to know
what money is.

JCT: The bankmath has it all. Nothing simpler, nothing more
sophisticated anywhere in the world.

MD: On another subject, I live in a Co-operative in Toronto
(Scarborough) and would like to participate or start a LETS
program. I would also be interested in volunteering and/or
trading my services. Are you aware of any organizations in
Toronto that are like- minded who would be interested in
seeing my resume or who are interested in getting help
?Thank you for your time, Marcel

JCT: Look up the Toronto LETS.
Go buy some Toronto Dollars and go shopping in the St.
Lawrence Market.
Or just start your own internet UNILETS page like mine.
====

4) Forum Social Europeen de Florence (6/10 nov 2002)
-----------------------------------------------------

>Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:17:21 +0100
>From: seljeu@... (SELJEU)
>Subject: Les compte-rendus des ateliers Sel du FSE 2002
>To: informations-sel-jeu@...

FORUM SOCIAL EUROPEEN DE FLORENCE (6/10 nov 2002)

Compte-rendu des ateliers auxquels ont participi les membres
de SEL de France et de Sel'idaire .
Reports of workshops in which members of France LETS and
SEL'daire participated.

ATELIER (08/11/02 de 10h ` 13h): SYSTEMES D'ECHANGES LOCAL.
WORKSHOP (08/11/02 de 10h ` 13h): LOCAL EXCHANGE SYSTEMS.
(25 participants)

1/ Espagne: Spain
Juan et Christina appartiennent ` un LETS (c'est la
dinomination anglaise, qui est utilisie en Espagne) De la
rigion de Girone (Nord Catalogne). Il y a 3 LETS dans cette
rigion. Dans celui de la ville de Girone, il y a environ 50
membres. Ce LETS est en lien (local commun)avec un riseau
d'ichange de savoirs (plus ancien que le LETS et comprenant
environ 200 membres) et l'association Servas (riseau
international d'ichange d'hibergement). De ces 3 LETS, le
plus ancien a 5 ans, le plus ricent 1 an et demi. Il existe
d'autres LETS en diffirentes rigions d'Espagne (Madrid,
Bilbao, Barcelone, Iles Canaries); mais il existe peu de
liens entre eux ; cela commence ` se divelopper par le
riseau Internet.

Juan and Christine belong to a LETS (the English acronym
which is used in Spain) in the region of Girone (Catalonia
North). There are 3 LETS in the region. In the town of
Girone, there are about 50 members. This LETS is a link
(local common) with an exchange network of "savoirs" (know-
hows) (more ancient than the LETS and comprised of about 200
members) and the Servas Association (International
Accommodations Exchange network). Of these 3 other LETS, the
oldest is 5 years old, the most recent a year and a half.
There are other LETS in different regions of Spain (Madrid,
Bilbao, Barcelona, Canary Islands); but there are few links
between them; it's starting to develope due to the Internet.

2/ Angleterre: England

Peter North nous parle des LETS anglais mais aussi des Lets
en Hongrie et en Argentine. Les LETS existent depuis 10 ans
en Angleterre. En 1992, suite ` une crise financihre
majeure, il se crie 600 LETS. Mais aprhs une piriode de
dimarrage enthousiaste, on constate une retombie. Cas du
LETS de Manchester (ville de 2 millions d'habitants): A
partir d'un groupe de 40 personnes, on atteint 650 adhirents
en 2 ans. Ce LETS se diveloppe dans un milieu socioculturel
assez particulier (icologistes, pacifistes, quakers : une
culture de la marginaliti ). Mais il ne s'itend pas `
d'autres milieux de population, en particulier, pas dans les
quartiers pauvres oy rhgne peur et mifiance.

Peter North speaks to us of English LETS but also of LETS in
Hungary and Argentina. LETS have existed for 10 years in
England. In 1992, after a major financial crisis, 600 LETS
came into existence. But after an enthusiastic take-off,
there was a let-down. Case from Manchester LETS (city of 2
million): Starting with a group of 40 people, they reached
650 members in 2 years. This LETS developed in a quite
particular sociocultural milieu  (ecologists, pacifists,
quakers: a culture of marginality). But it didn't extend to
other sectors of the population, not in the poorer quarters
where rules fright and disdain.

Cause de la difficulti d'adhision des exclus: peur de perdre
les droits sociaux et dificit de capaciti d'offres au sein
du LETS. Apparaissent plus tard, des systhmes d'ichanges
basis sur le temps comme monnaie d'ichange. Ils sont en lien
avec les institutions et regoivent une participation
financihre de l'itat. Les LETS sont pluttt en perte de
vitesse alors que les banques du temps se diveloppent. On
dinombre aujourd'hui 96 LETS contre 450, il y a 2 ans. LETS
et Banque du temps tendent ` jtre en concurrence:
* les banques du temps sont plus en lien avec les rialitis
iconomiques des exclus
* Les LETS sont plus dans l'engagement politique
contestataire.

The cause of the membership difficulties for the excluded,
fear of losing the social support and a lack of offers
within the LETS. Showing up later were exchange systems
based on time as the unit of currency. They're linked to
social organizations and receive funding from the state. The
LETS are more or less losing steam while time-banks are
growing. There are now only 96 LETS today compared to 450
just 2 years ago. LETS and time-banks tend to compete:
* timebanks are more in tune with economic realities for the
excluded;
* LETS are more within a contesting political engagement.

3/ En Hongrie: Hungary:

Aprhs la piriode stalinienne, il existe, dans ce pays, un
grand disir de crier des espaces de confiance. Il existe
actuellement, 7 LETS, le premier ayant iti crie ` Budapest
essentiellement par des icologistes. Dans l'Est de la
Hongrie, dans un petit village au mode de vie trhs
ancestral, il s'est crier un LETS d'entre aide entre 17
familles : ils ne veulent pas s'agrandir de peur de perdre
la confiance ; les ichanges se font sans compter.

JCT: After the stalinist period, there exists in this
country a desire to create spaces of confidence. There now
exist 7 LETS, the first essentially created in Budapest by
ecologists. In Hungary, in a small town with old fashioned
life-style, an inter-aid LETS was created between 17
families: they don't want to grow fearing the loss of
confidence; the exchanges are done without accounting.

4/En Argentine: Argentina

Le cas de l'Argentine est ivoqui rapidement. La faillite
financihre brutale du systhme, a produit un afflux massif de
gens vers les Sels (800.000 personnes ?) La plupart d'entre
eux ichange ` l'aide d'une monnaie papier, les ichanges se
faisant essentiellement lors de marchis. Par la fabrication
de faux billets, il s'est produit une inflation qui a
produit la perte de confiance et entranni la faillite du
systhme.

The case of Argentina appeared quickly. The brutal failure
of the financial system produced a massive influx of people
into LETS (800,000 people?). Most of them exchange using
paper currency, most exchanges taking place at markets.
Because of counterfeiting, an inflation occurred that caused
a loss of confidence and ended in the failure of the system.

JCT: The system did not fail though some people have taken
temporary advantage of it. Have the accounts that say that
Mr. X who served Mr. Y for an Hour now disappeared. Will Mr.
X not get credit for his time when the big UNILETS absorbs
all the accounts from the smaller LETS?

JCT: Le systeme n'a pas failli meme si des gens ont pris
avantage temporaire du systeme. Est-ce-que les comptes qui
disent que M. X a servi M. Y pendant une heure sont
maintenant disparu? Est-ce-que M. X ne recevra pas ce credit
pour son temps lorsque le grand UNISEL absorbe tous les
comptes des plus petits SELs?

5/ En France:

Jean-Paul Dumas prisente les Sels de France et leur
association de liaison, SEL'idaire. Dix minutes itant
acordies seulement ` chaque intervenant, il est impossible
de faire une prisentation complhte des SEL et de SELidaire.
Il insiste donc sur la spicificiti des SELs frangais qui
font passer "le lien avant le bien", de SELidaire qui n'est
pas une fidiration mais un outil technique que se sont
donnis les SEL pour faciliter la riflexion, la circulation
de l'information et la capitalisation des expiriences, et
sur la fait que nul ne peut pritendre reprisenter les SEL et
parler en leur nom. Enfin Il prisente la dernihre idition du
SEL Mode d'Emploi et en distribue un exemplaire ` chacun des
participants ` cet atelier.

Jean-Paul Dumas presented the SELS of France and their
networking association SEL'idaire. With only 10 minutes per
speaker, it was impossible to do a complete presentation on
SELs and SEL'idaire. He therefore concentrated on the
motto of French LETS "The link before the good," on
SEL'idaire which is not a federation but a technical tool
the SELS created to facilitate deliberations, circulation of
information and the capitalization of experiences, and on
the fact that no one may claim to represent SELS and speak
in their name. Finally, he presented the latest edition of
the SEL User manual and distributed one to each participant
in the workshop.


6/En Italie :

les Banco del tempo. Les premihres apparaissent dans les
annies 1997. On peut distinguer deux tendances :
1/ volonti d'indipendance, d'autonomie ` la base : cette
tendance est la moins nombreuse mais elle tend ` mieux
perdurer.
2/ volonti de lien avec les institutions ; l'itat ayant
promulgui une loi, la loi 53, pour promouvoir et stimuler
les banques du temps. Cette tendance a connu un essor
important mais se trouve en perte de vitesse.

The Time Banks. The first appeared in 1997. We can
distinguish between two tendencies:
1/ the wish to be independent with autonomy as the basis:
fewer had this tendency but it tended to last longer;
2/ the wish to be linked to institutions: the state having
promulgated a law, Law 53, to promote and stimulate time-
banks. This tendency had an important lift but is losing
steam.

7/ Au Brisil: Brasil

Chico Whitaker nous parle du premier Sel crier ` Sao-Paulo
en 1999,sur le modhle argentin. Il est riche d'une centaine
de membres qui se retrouvent pour un marchi convivial (repas
pris en commun, musique...) une fois par semaine. Ce Sel est
animi par quelques personnes qui ont eu la volonti
d'implanter ce Sel dans un quartier pauvre; Une attention
particulihre est portie pour une solidariti avec les
chtmeurs.

JCT: Chico Whitaker tells us about the LETS created in Sao
Paulo in 1999 on the Argentine model. It has a hundred
members who meet for a convivial market (meal in common,
music..) once a week. This LETS was started by several
people who wanted to implant a LETS in a poor quarter:
special attention going to solidarity with the unemployed.

8/ En Pologne: Poland

Les 2 polonais prisents nous explique que c'est un groupe de
la mouvance icologiste et anarchiste qui essaye de
divelopper des LETS dans la rigion de Cracovie (intervention
dans des meetings, articles dans des journaux). Le dimarrage
est difficile et peu de chtmeurs participent bien que le
chtmage soit important dans cette rigion.

The 2 Poles present explained that it was a group from the
ecological and anarchist movements who tried to develop LETS
in the region of Krakov (proposals in meetings, newspaper
articles). The take-off was difficult and few unemployed
participated even though unemployment was high in the
region.

9/ En Hollande: Holland

(Pays oy le chtmage officiel est de 3 % ) Il existe 80 Lets
dont celui d'Amsterdam avec 1200 adhirents. Ces LETS sont en
relation avec les institutions avec lesquels ils nigocient
des contrats au sujet des imptts et de l'aide social. Ils
dibattent de questions tels que :
-Comment ichanger avec les entreprises ?
-Comment avoir de la qualiti ?
* Que faire avec les "ichangeur" occasionnels,
accumulateurs, profiteurs ?

Country where official unemployment is 3%) There exist 80
LETS with that of Amsterdam having 1200 members. They are in
relation to institutions with which they negotiate contracts
with respect to taxes and social support. They debate
questions such as:
-How to exchange with businesses?
-How to obtain quality?
* What to do about traders who are "occasional,"
accumulators, profiteers?

ATELIER (du 09/10/02): Monnaies locales.
18 participants (Espagne, Italie, France, Pologne, Hollande,
Allemagne) Dans un premier moment, Marguerite Kennedy puis
Henck Von Arkel exposent la thiorie des systhmes dont ils
expliqueront la pratique dans la deuxihme partie de
l'atelier.

WORKSHOP (09/10/02): Local currencies
18 participants (Spain, Italy, France, Poland, Holland,
Germany) At the start, Margrit Kennedy then Henck Von Arkel
explain the theory of systems whose practice will be
explained in the second part of the workshop.

ATELIER (du 7/11/02 de 10h ` 13h ) : MONNAIES LOCALES COMME
INSTRUMENT ALTERNATIF DE L'ECONOMIE SOCIALE
voir compte rendu fait par Bruno Lombard:
http://www.mediasol.org/xarticle.php3?id_article=2596&page_au_long=1

WORKSHOP (7/11/02): Local currencies as an alternative
instrument of the social economy.

Ordre du jour: Order of the Day:
1/ Panorama des rencontres passies
2/ Futures rencontres
3/ Remarques et riflexions diverses
1/ Une rencontre s'est tenue en octobre 2001 ` Quibec avec
environ 400 participants. Elle a abouti ` la criation d'un
Comiti International de Solidariti des organisations de
liconomie sociale et solidaire. Une riunion est privue `
Dakar (Sinigal) du 14 au 20 /12 /2002.

1/ Panorama of past conferences
2/ Future conferences
3/ Diverse remarks and reflections

1/ A conference was held in October 2001 in Quebec with
about 400 participants. It ended up in the creation of an
International Solidarity Committee of organisations of the
social and solidarity economy. A reunion is expected at
Dakar (Senegal) from the 14 to 20 /12/ 2002

JCT: Boy, does this seem late for a report to be put out.

Question posie: comment s'organiser au niveau europien pour
avoir une meilleure lisibiliti dans ces rencontres mondiales
de l'iconomie sociale et solidaire? A ce propos, on insiste
sur la nicessiti de prisenter une " devanture " commune des
mouvements de l'ico soc et sol face aux grandes
institutions, en respectant la particulariti de chacun.

Question posed: How to organize at the European level to
have a better "reading" in these world meetings of the
social and solidarity economy? To this question, we insist
on presenting a common front with respect to the large
institutions, in respecting the particularity of each.

2/ Une riunion faisant suite ` celle de Quibec, se tiendra `
Majorque(Espagne) ` partir du 25 /03 /2003 durant 2 ` 3
jours; Cette riunion est ouverte ` tous les riseaux. Les
REAS espagnols sont invitant mais ne seront pas les
animateurs de ces rencontres; l'ordre du jour sera itabli
par les participants.

2/ A reunion subsequent to that in Quebec will be held in
Majorca (Spain) from 25/03/2003 over 2 to 3 days. This
reunion is open to all networks. The Spanish REAS are
invited but will not be the organizers of these meetings;
the agenda will be established by the participants.

JCT: So a few LETS developments going on around the world.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:12:21 -0400
>From: neil@... (Neil Watkins)
>Subject: [mgj-announce] CRITICAL MGJ meeting, TUESDAY, 4/8,
>To: mgj-announce@..., mgj-
discuss@...

JCT: Neil Watkins and Soren Ambrose are the two 50 Years is
Enough controllers who censored every word I've ever written
about LETS and UNILETS to the anti-bank movement. I've also
been sending my posts to the mgj listserv and Neil and his
crew of bank bellwethers killed everyone.

I published a complete set of detailed reports about their
promotion of violence by protesters and their suppression of
any banking systems engineering reform. See
http://yahoogroups.com/group/a16-accommodations/messages/1

And of course, here we still have our Judas Goats leading
the World-Bank-IMF protesters astray.

** Please circulate widely **
ANNOUNCEMENT -- FINAL MGJ MEETING BEFORE APRIL 13 ACTIONS!
TUESDAY, APRIL 8, 2003, 7:30 PM, Casa del Pueblo, 1459
Columbia Rd. NW COME OUT, PLUG IN, AND GET INVOLVED!

Aside from this weekend (April 12-13), the World Bank and
IMF will not be meeting here in DC for another year (In
Septemberm, they'll be in Dubai)! THIS coming weekend (April
12-13) IS MGJ'S LAST CHANCE TO SWING INTO ACTION ON THE
WB/IMF UNTIL NEXT APRIL! THIS WEDNESDAY IS OUR LAST MEETING
TO MAKE IT HAPPEN! We need you to come out and plug in to
make the weekend's actions a success.

We will be bottom-lining the World Bank/IMF rally during the
upcoming LASC mobilization, this coming April 13th. The LASC
is joining forces with community activists and with peace
activists to make the links between economic intervention
and militarization, and we need your help! Even if you
haven't been to MGJ meetings, consider coming to this
meeting we need people to plug in and help to make the April
13th actions a reality. We need people to help with puppets,
do comms and other exciting "day-of" tasks.

JCT: Here I am having my LETS anti-poverty software censored
by guys whose best props are "puppets?"

This action is directly following an ANSWER anti-war rally
on April 12, and we are calling on all MGJ members to
mobilize folks to make Sunday April 13 Latin America
Solidarity Action/ IMF/BANK rally a success.

More details on the weekend's activities at
www.lasolidarity.org

Send all agenda items for the meeting to Stasy McDougall at
<stasy@...>

JCT: This must be their new censor.

See you Tuesday night!
+++++++++++++++++++
Neil Watkins
World Bank Bonds Boycott
Center for Economic Justice
733 15th Street, NW, Suite 928
Washington, DC 20005
Tel: (202) 393-6665
Fax: (202) 393-1358
Web: www.worldbankboycott.org

JCT: That's their big revolutionary thrust. Boycott buying
bonds. A lot of poor people are going to love doing that.

Anyway, just pointing out once again how the guys leading
the anti-bank anti-poverty parade have censored every
word about the world's best banking system as recommended in
resolution C6 to government of the UN Millennium Declaration.

Just like Cannabis Culture Marc Emery, Heads' Boris St-
Maurice, and High Times Magazine are lionizing a crooked
Shyster-meister (Alan Young) passing himself off as a medpot
champion.

Rats, rats, rats leading righteous movements everywhere.
It's almost as if anyone at the top of a reform movement is
a rat. In banking and medpot anyway. Amazing isn't it?


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: My post on "Jr. GI Joe" Harper lusting for bloodshed
brought an automated response from his Alliance Party:

>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:40:39 -0500
>From: Reynolds.J@... ("Reynolds, John - M.P.")
>Subject: Reply to your e-mail on Iraq
>To: turmel@...

O T T A W A
Dear Sir or Madam:

Thank you for taking the time to write to me by e-mail on
such an important issue. This response explains the position
of our Leader and the Canadian Alliance.

The question of military involvement in any action is one of
the most serious that citizens and their elected
representatives can ever consider. In the final analysis,
disarming Iraq is necessary for the long-term security of
the world, to the collective interests of our historic
allies and therefore, manifestly, it is in the national
interest of this country.

JCT: So is disarming a dozen other tin-pot dictatorships who
bought their dirty weapons from the US. Why only Iraq? And
why not and not years ago? Why the sudden rush to kill
without UN backing, which I feel is a war crime which your
party is advocating joining.

Existing United Nations Security Council resolutions have
long provided for the use of force to disarm Iraq and
restore international peace and security to the area.

JCT: Again, why now and not 8 years ago?

Security Council resolution 678, adopted in 1990, authorized
the use of all necessary means, not only to implement
resolution 660 demanding Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait, but
also to implement all subsequent relevant resolutions and to
restore international peace and security to the area.

JCT: They stopped 11 years ago, why start up the bloodshed
again now? What did Saddam to do trigger the immediacy?

Resolution 687, which provided the ceasefire terms for Iraq
in 1991 - a ceasefire, not an armistice - affirmed
resolution 678. Resolution 1441 itself confirmed that Iraq
has been and remains in material breach of its obligations,
a point on which there is unanimous international agreement.

JCT: And no weapons of mass destruction have been found.

Iraq's past and continuing breaches of the ceasefire
obligations now negate the basis for the formal ceasefire.
Iraq has, by its conduct, demonstrated that it did not and
does not accept the terms of the ceasefire. Consequently,
authorization for the use of force in Security Council
resolution 678 has been reactivated.

JCT: That's all it takes for you to condone killing innocent
civilians in a country that poses no direct risk to us? Your
party stands for shedding innocent blood on that basis?

I would point out that this view of international law is not
new. In fact, our own Canadian deployment of troops to the
Persian Gulf in 1998 in Operation Desert Fox, strongly
supported at the time by the current Prime Minister, was
undertaken on the same legal basis. The Clinton
administration understood and argued, as the Bush
administration does now, that existing Security Council
resolutions clearly allow for the use of military force.

JCT: How easy it is for you to rationalize your desire to
join in the war crime? Have you ever seen combat? Have you
ever been shot at? Ever been punched in the nose? Or are you
just a bloodthirsty chickenhawk quarterbacking the war from
your armchair war and glued to your Boob tube?

As you may be aware, more and more Canadians are agreeing
that Canada should be supporting our historic allies in
enforcing U.N. Resolution 1441 to disarm Saddam Hussein.

JCT:  And more and more Americans believe Saddam was
responsible for 9-11, as I'm sure more and more Canadians
are coming to believe. It's so much comforting to think that
you have urgent reasons for killing all those innocent
children right now.

However, the Canadian Alliance position has always been
based on principles, not polls and I appreciate that you
also feel strongly about this matter based on your
principles.

JCT: And if these are your principles, I'm sad to say I
thought they died with Stalin. You should be ashamed to call
yourself a sentient human being.

Thank you again for making me aware of your opinion. You
have helped me to have a better understanding of how many
Canadians including many of my constituents' feel about this
serious situation. Sincerely, John Reynolds, Member of
Parliament West Vancouver - Sunshine Coast <<...OLE_Obj...>>

JCT: I think you're a bunch of immoral monsters who
cravenly ass-lick the highest bidder. Your rationalization
for the murder of children does you no honor. You dishonor
Canada's good name when, for your own personal gain, you
do not reproach your errant neighbor their crimes. You abet
those crimes.

Advocating genocide is a crime under section 318.2.b of the
Canada Criminal Code and maybe it's about time someone
charged you bloodlusting chickenhawks with advocating the
genocide of innocent Iraqi children? I wish I had the time.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: Actually, the last post about President Bush being
hooked on Halcion was the most terrifying thing I'd read in
a long time. It changed everything if George isn't there in
the head. I had thought he was a monster for thwarting the
global will and unleashing the bloodshed and then I realized
he couldn't have cared. He wasn't there in the brain.

Benjamin J. Stein, lawyer, writer and actor, wrote:
"... the news that President Bush has been taking powerful
benzodiazepine sedation in the form of the prescription drug
Halcion when he travels...

JCT: Or have one of Mama Turmel's mari-muffins or mari-
cookies. Mom has cancer and illegally eats a quarter mari-
muffin to help her get 10 Hours of great sleep. Her recipe
uses 4 grams of shake per muffin or cookie and she says a
quarter cookie is enough to gently knock her out for the
night with no side effects. So maybe someone should get a
mari-muffin to the president just as he's about to hit the
button and save him from his horrible addiction to such a
powerful drug.

I'm talking shake, the remaining herbal material after as
much of the THC resin has been shaken off to make the purer
hash product; the stuff you get buy from growers from under
$100 a pound, 20 cents a gram.

After all, marijuana is knows as the "gate" drug beyond
which few bother to venture. Of course, the spin artists
have, for the past 80 years, misdefined the drug as a "gate-
way" drug for those who do venture and try the harder drugs
but only in the sense that "they've been lying to us about
week, maybe they've been lying to us about heroine too."

Many have avowed that marijuana is the "gate" drug that
stops them from relapsing back to the hard stuff. I'd bet
that 20 cents worth of weak marijuana in a mari-cookie, even
a two-gram, maybe even a full four-gram mari-muffin, would
do the trick though Marc Paquette says a full 4-grammer
leaves him with a body-stone that takes away his pain like
the best opium. I've done a full muffin and it only put me
to sleep for 12 hours. That's no fun. But it would gently do
the trick to save George Bush from his Halcion addiction and
maybe he won't be such a bad old-boy once he straightens out
his act. He just seems more a guy who's comfortable with a
couple of beers at a football game than slaughtering
thousands in a war.

Well, I just noticed something in the post that's scarier
than Dubya being on Halcion:

Our Man in Nirvana
The New York Times
Wednesday, January 22, 1992
by Benjamin J. Stein
Bush takes a strong sedative. Too strong.

JCT: Arrrrg. 1992. Could be have been talking about George
Bush Senior, the first Bush Butcher of Bagdad? Not the
second Butcher of Bagdad?

So that means that George Bush wasn't stoned out of his head
when he ordered the slaughter of thousands of innocent
children and their parents. He was straight.

I preferred to think he was stoned. Now we're going to be
needing Crimes Against Humanity hearings after all. He can't
plead being stoned even if he may plead being drunk.

Is there anyone out there who knows whether it was the
father or the son who we're talking about here. George Sr. I
could more easily believe would slaughter innocents without
needing to be stoned.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: We're talking about the Judas Goat organisations
leading protesters into physical rebellion against the Bush
military dictatorship. Here are a few more stories that
should scare a few willies out of any Amerikans:

>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:17:15 -0800
>From: <avoice@...> [Pamela Gaston]
>Subject: OREGON BILL - LIFE IN PRISON FOR PROTESTING

PG: This has been their goal all along..... SB70 two years
ago sponsored by Traitor KEVIN MANNIX was an earlier version
- all their language changed to "terrorists" after the 911
event.... the rest was already being set in place by Oregons
TRAITORS in the legislature

JCT: Really good point. When you read these draconian laws
that are going to enslave you, keep in mind that someone in
your government had to craft those laws. Someone had to sit
down and deliberately strip Amerikans of their rights. And
what's scariest is that they've been thinking doing these
things about it all along.

PG: IT IS TIME FOR A NO CONFIDECE VOTE IN OREGON AGAINST
GOVERNOR KULONGONSKI, THE LEGISLATURE AND THE SUPREME
COURT....THEY ARE AN ENTRENCHED CRIMINAL OPERATION FOR
PROFIT - RACKETEERING AND VIOLATIONS OF THE PUBLIC TRUST,
TRESPASS TO OUR CCONSTITUTIONAL PROCESS AND DEPRIVING THE
PEOPLE OF OUR LAWFUL COURTS TO REDRESS THE GRIEVANCES THEY
CREATE........ THEN WE MOVE ON THE REST OF THE TRAITORS.....

WAKE UP PEOPLE - please go to
http://www.avoiceforchildren.com and read about the "lie
cheat and steal" DR-102 and Federal Investigations
Enhancement Act passed ALREADY into "law"......

STOP THE ROBOTS NOW !!!!!
pamela gaston

Oregon Bill Could Give LIFE In Prison To Peace Protestors
From Louanne M. From Tom Atlee
3-23-3

TA: Dear friends,
This is serious and urgent. There is a clear and present
danger to democracy in Oregon which could spread to other
states.

Senate Bill 742 proposed by Oregon State Senator Minnis (R-
Dist. 25 / Fairview)(Chair of the Senate Judiciary
Committee) creates the crime of "terrorism" -- punishable by
life imprisonment. Senator Minnis defines "terrorism" so
broadly that even being present at a demonstration that is
in any way "disruptive" could result in life imprisonment.

JCT: And if they turn you over to George Bush, he can
execute you for the same thing. In a sense, getting people
to fight the danger of life imprisonment is helping them
ignore the danger of capital punishment in secret.

TA: I have given the relevant sections of the bill below, as
well as the link to the whole bill. I have also provided
information from the American Civil Liberties Union
regarding this, including contact information for the
relevant Oregon State Senators. Ever since laws began to be
passed criminalizing "terrorism," I have been concerned that
its definition would be expanded to include anything that
authorities wished to suppress which could then be subject
to extreme punishment, laying the groundwork for serious
suppression. It seems that is now happening. It must be
energetically nipped in the bud if we are to prevent its
spread.

JCT: It is now happening! Now is the time to get alarmed.
Too bad they didn't see it happening before it started
happening but they were too busy.

TA: If this law passes in Oregon, it is highly likely that
other states will pass similar laws, especially in the
current political climate.

JCT: You bet. I'm sure the government have their people in
every state with the same draft laws ready to go to
"surprise" those citizens who will then be able to
officially say: that is happening now.

TA: I trust you will act if you feel so moved. Whether you
are an Oregon resident or not, you can express your dismay
to the Oregon State Senators listed below. If you are an
Oregon resident you can, in addition, attend a hearing
Monday morning Mar 24 in Salem, OR (specifics below).
Coheartedly, Tom
PS: The law also sets aside (in terrorism cases) two other
Oregon laws which prevent police from (a) spying on innocent
people and organizations and (b) apprehending people solely
for immigration violations.
Excerpts from the proposed law:

http://pub.das.state.or.us/LEG_BILLS/PDFs/SB742.pdf

72nd OREGON LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY--2003 Regular Session
Senate Bill 742 Sponsored by Senator MINNIS
SUMMARY: Creates crime of terrorism. Punishes by life
imprisonment.

SECTION 1.

(1) A person commits the crime of terrorism if the person
knowingly plans, participates in or carries out any act that
is intended, by at least one of its participants, to
disrupt: (a) The free and orderly assembly of the
inhabitants of the State of Oregon; (b) Commerce or the
transportation systems of the State of Oregon; or (c) The
educational or governmental institutions of the State of
Oregon or its inhabitants.

JCT: The new crime of "disruption."

(2) A person commits the crime of terrorism if the person
conspires to do any of the activities described in
subsection (1) of this section....

(4) (a) A person convicted of terrorism shall be punished by
imprisonment for life.
(b) When a person is convicted of terrorism under this
section, the court shall order that the person be confined
for a minimum of 25 years without possibility of parole,
release to post-prison supervision, release on work release
or any form of temporary leave or employment at a forest or
work camp....

JCT: This is what the Secret Team want for all of us
everywhere. Accept it. Prepare for it. It's coming to a
government near you.
=====

Subject: [piml] Oregon: Antiterror bill meets opposition at hearing
Date: 25 Mar 2003 15:13:54 -0800
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/104859720379330.xm\
l
HARRY ESTEVE

HE: SALEM -- A bill that would define violent protesters as
terrorists and subject them to possible life imprisonment
came under attack Monday at a packed and sometimes tense
legislative hearing. Antiwar activists and civil
libertarians showed up in force to criticize Senate Bill
742, which they said contains overly broad language and
gives police expanded powers to investigate people based on
ethnicity. "We are living in the McCarthy era all over
again," said Patty Caldwell, an antiwar activist from
Welches. "Then, you were called a communist. Now, you're
called a terrorist sympathizer."

JCT: Hooray. Fight your own slavery and forget the diversion
in Iraq. Beat your own chains and I'll feel a lot better
about life.

HE: The statements came during the bill's first hearing in
the Senate Judiciary Committee. Committee Chairman Sen. John
Minnis, R-Wood Village, author of the bill, threatened to
clear the hearing room after repeated bursts of applause for
speakers and interruptions shouted from the audience.
Minnis said he introduced the measure to put all crimes that
could be construed as terrorism into a single law with tough
punishment guidelines, and to require Oregon police agencies
to cooperate with federal investigations into terrorists.
But the wording of the bill left many concerned that it
could be applied to relatively minor acts of vandalism or
misbehavior during a demonstration. The bill applies to acts
of violence committed while someone is disrupting commerce,
transportation, schools or universities. Anyone convicted of
terrorism would get an automatic life sentence with a 25-
year minimum before being considered for parole. "Many of
the protesters arrested last week in Portland for
misdemeanor conduct may have qualified for prosecution"
under SB 742, said Susan Russell of the Oregon Criminal
Lawyers Association. Crimes, such as throwing a rock through
a window, or lighting flags on fire while demonstrating, do
not warrant potential life sentences, she said.

JCT: It would have gotten you killed in Stalin's Russia,
probably killed in Palestine and Afghanistan, and soon, in
good US of A too. Secret executions and 25-year sentences
for civil resistance.

HE: After the hearing, the judiciary committee's three
Democratic members spoke against the bill, all but killing
its chances of surviving intact. All Senate committees are
divided equally between Democrats and Republicans, and a
bill must get a majority of committee votes to move forward.
"This bill chips away at the very freedom we profess to
enjoy in the face of terrorism," said Sen.  Charlie Ringo,
D-Beaverton. "I would not want our servicemen in the Middle
East and elsewhere to return and find that the freedoms they
are risking their lives for overseas have been damaged while
entrusted to the care of the Oregon Senate."

JCT: But they tried. That's the point. They're ready to
strip people's rights without anyone knowing and this is
good news. But notice that the whole point of the Patriot
Act was that it was passed without anyone in Congress
reading it. Incredible that they admit it.

HE: Sen. Ted Ferrioli of John Day, one of three Republicans
on the committee, said Oregon law needs to be changed to
more clearly define acts of civil disobedience and acts of
terrorism.

JCT: I wonder why ordinary laws against assault, murder, and
destruction wouldn't keep working.

HE: But two other Democrats on the committee, Vicki Walker
of Eugene and Ginny Burdick of Portland, said they won't
support the bill.
Minnis said he will rewrite portions of the bill in an
attempt to address concerns about the broad language and
role Oregon police agencies would have in federal terror
investigations. No additional hearings have been scheduled
on the bill. "Unfortunately, there's a lot of hysteria
associated with some of the original language" of the bill,
he said. "I will bring something back and see if it works."
Harry Esteve: 503-221-8234; harryesteve@...

JCT: No shame. Minnis's bill is denounced as a plan to strip
them of their rights and he's coming back to try again. Did
nobody tell him he should be ashamed. Where's Michael Moore
when you need him.
====

>Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:05:19 -0500
>From: Edward Britton <tachyon@...>
>Subject: A History of Folly
by Adam Young

    "How do I respond when I see that in some Islamic
countries there is vitriolic hatred for America? I'll tell
you how I respond: I'm amazed. I just can't believe it,
because I know how good we are." --President George W. Bush

Before we celebrate the bombings of Afghanistan with hope of
their expansion to other countries, let's pause and take a
look back on the past fifty years of U.S. folly in the
Middle East.

JCT: I've skipped the nations Dubya hasn't yet said he wants
to war with

1949--Syria
1952--Egypt
1953--Iran
After the government announces plans to grant the Soviet
Union a territorial oil franchise in Northern Iran, modeled
on the British one in the south for the British-owned Anglo-
Iranian Oil Company, a local leader named Mohammed Mosaddeq
leads the successful popular movement to oppose the grant to
the Soviets and pushes further to nationalize all foreign
oil facilities. Mosaddeq's popularity and influence increase
to the degree that the shah appoints him prime minister.
Faced with economic and political turmoil, the shah attempts
to remove Mosaddeq but is met with mobs and mass public
demonstrations, causing the shah to flee the country. The
CIA then backs Mosaddeq's opponents, who then overthrow his
administration and sentence him to house arrest for the rest
of his life. The shah is restored and becomes America's best
friend and now controls the nationalized British oil
facilities as well. Eventually, opposition to the shah's
autocracy and U.S. political domination, as well as the
Savak--the U.S.-trained Iranian secret police--grows into a
nationalist revolution to oust the shah and the West, and in
1979, Iran too turns against the U.S.

1958--Iraq
In opposition to the British-client Iraqi regime, and in
opposition also to Nasser's growing influence in Iraq, the
bloodthirsty Colonel Kassem spearheads the American-
supported military coup to overthrow the Iraqi royal family.
The king and crown prince and most of the royal family are
executed, and the prime minister is murdered by a mob. Years
later, after Kassem has alienated all his allies except the
Soviet Union and is overthrown and executed in 1963, United
States support swings to a small group called the Ba'th
Socialist Party. After many twists and turns, coups and
elections, coups and revolutions, Saddam Hussein emerges as
president of Iraq in 1976 after leading the coup that, with
American insistence, installed that regime in 1968.

1958--Lebanon
After the Iraqi monarchy is overthrown, the president of
Lebanon requests U.S. military intervention to save his
tottering regime from insurrections of United Arab
Republican sympathizers. U.S. Marines arrive the next day in
Beirut. Lebanon enters into a thirty-five-year period of
instability and civil war.

1969--Libya
In 1959, oil is discovered, which transforms the country. To
elbow out the British, American support flows to a young
reformist colonel in the Libyan army, Muammar al-Khadafy,
who, once in power, turns against his U.S. sponsors, under
the pretext of Western exploitation of Arab oil. He
confiscates and nationalizes oil facilities and assets,
including those of the local Jewish and Italian communities.

JCT: Yeah for Moamar. Stiffed the American financiers and
kept his oil profits for his people.
Hey, you may ask, what's going on? Moamar Khadafy's supposed
to be the "mad dog" of the Middle East, as labelled by our
always-trustworthy Amerikan media and government. Well, just
like Fidel Castro was smeared with Amerikan lies and now we
find out he sent more doctors to the Third World than
Amerika send death-squad advisers. It seems that the
Amerikan lie machine has done the same kind of number of
Moamar in Libya.

You have to keep in mind that the American people are the
most successfully lied-to booboisie in the world. Here we
are in other countries watching them bomb the bejeezus out
of some already-well-bombed little place on the basis that
the US majority have been led to believe Saddam is
responsible for 9-11. They have to have some reason for
bombing Bagdhad so it must be that "Saddam did it."

Do you realize how amazing an accomplishment that is for the
whole world to be watching while the US media instill a lie
in their brains. Here we are laughing about it yet they fell
for it. And you know what, our governments and media do it
to us too!

We haven't been as completely exposed to the CNN lying
machine in other countries because we get other inputs. That
the majority of Amerikans have been blinkered to believe
such bald-faced disinformation proves the point.

How much confidence can anyone have in opinion polls done
with people who have been successfully lied to? Do their
opinions really matter anymore when they've been
successfully duped? Would 98% approval rating for the Bush
Bloodshed in response to Saddam's doing 9-11 make things
that much more convincing? Not when you know it was Saddam's
enemy, Osama, who did 9-11 as most Amerikans seem to have
forgotten.

So what's the truth about Moamar? About the same truth as
Fidel. Both do not steal. Both do not kill. The Amerikan
government loves to support thieves as its dictators.
Witness Amerika's love for the billionaire Somoza family
they helped own Nicaragua, Amerika's love for the
billionaire Papa Doc Duvalier they helped to own Haiti,
Amerika's love for the billionaire Marcos family that they
helped gain ownership of Philippines. Amerika's love for the
billionaire Shah they helped gain ownership of Iran. Amerika
loves doing business with thieving billionaire dictators
because billionaire birds of a feather flock together. And
they hate those they cannot corrupt.

Knowing the Amerikan propensity for smearing anyone who
tries to actually help their peoples, as have Castro and
Khadafy and most murdered Third World activists, I have to
wonder if we aren't going to soon find out that Saddam's
another sainted leader completely smeared by the Amerikan
lying machine.

After all, just in the last year have I started hearing that
the infamous "gassing the Kurds" he's regularly accused of
is just another false story when it was really gas from Iran
during their war that drifted over to the Kurds. If the
"gassing the Kurds" allegation is another total Amerikan
fabrication, I can't really say I'm aware of any really bad
Saddam may have done on the par of Duvalier, Somoza, Marcos
and the Shah.

The problem is that the Amerikan government has been caught
lying to its people by the rest of the world so often, and
well documented for decades in Noam Chomsky's books, that
only the rest of the world knows that the Amerikan people
are the most successfully-lied-to people on the planet.

That they were fooled by their totally Free Press when they
had the Internet to find out the truth is their indictment.
If the activists in the States can have found out the truth,
it was there for the sheeple to find out too but they were
too lazy to care before supporting the slaughter of other
human beings overseas.

Final embarrassing point about dictator Moamar. He wanted to
shut down the schools one day to make a political point and
the government wouldn't let him. Khadafy is a figurehead
leader, a guru who leads by example and not by force since
it seems he has little force. But then again, the Amerikan
media have told you nothing but the ancient lies, have they?

The worse Amerikan lie about Moamar was that he was
responsible for the disco bombing in Germany which Ronnie
Reagan used as the pretext to bomb Libya and kill Khadafy's
daughter. The truth that it was another Arab group finally
did make the back newspages but most of the Amerikan sheeple
still believe that he did the disco bombing as surely as
they believe that Saddam did the New York twin towers
bombing.

1980--Iraq
With the Islamic revolution in Iran, the U.S. tilts toward
Iraq and Saddam Hussein as its proxy against the Iranians.
Iraq and Hussein become America's front line in its attempt
to crush the Islamic revolution in Iran. Armed and financed
by Uncle Sam, Saddam invades Iran in 1980. The war would
last for eight years and kill nearly a million people. Iraq
is given advice and intelligence from the CIA and the
Pentagon, and U.S. and British administrations provide Iraq
with chemical and biological weapons-making knowledge and
materiel to use against the Iranians. We all know how this
turned out, but this time was different. The U.S. turned on
Saddam.

1986--Libya
In retaliation for the terrorist bombing of a Berlin
nightclub that killed a U.S. soldier, President Reagan bombs
Libya, causing 130 deaths, including civilians near the
French embassy. Khadafy's own residence is targeted, killing
his adopted infant daughter, in an attempt to assassinate
him. Libya is deliberately chosen as the target because it
lacks defenses against air bombing. A few months later, the
U.S. admits to arms-trading with Iran, a state that the U.S.
openly calls an instigator of "international terrorism," and
one that is an ally of Libya. Arab cynicism about U.S.
intentions and trustworthiness could only increase. The
bombing of Pan Am 103 is considered revenge for these
attacks on Libya.

JCT: Notice that the fact Khadafy didn't do the dirty deed
is not even corrected in a text trying to convey some truth!
The conditioning is hard to beat and goes far.

1991--Iraq & Kuwait
After the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, April Gillespie, informs
Saddam that the U.S. would have no opinion on Iraq's
occupation of its "nineteenth province," the U.S. seizes the
opportunity to justify its post-cold war internationalism by
dubbing Saddam the "new Hitler." After mass slaughter and
defeat, crippling sanctions and daily bombardment follow to
persuade the Iraqi people that perhaps they would be better
off without Saddam. Other observers, however, believe that
the sanctions exist to prop up the price of oil.

JCT: Imagine that. April Glaspie told Saddam that she the US
didn't care what he did about Kuwait and then did.

The Cycle Continues
The U.S. sends billions in financial and military aid to
Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan each year to prop up these
regimes against "fundamentalist" popular Islamic movements
(which are the only way dissent can be expressed in these
regimes, since Islam is the only thing these rulers can't
outlaw). The U.S. also gives political support to corrupt
and oppressive dictatorships, such as exist in Algeria and
Tunisia. Everywhere, the U.S. favors and aids the status quo
of political repression and dictatorship. This hypocrisy is
what fuels Arab and Muslim anger.

JCT: Okay, I just noted a few of the murderous dictatorship
the Amerikan government has supported with the American
people's tax dollars. But I'll have to agree that probably,
they have a hand in supporting repression and dictatorship
almost everywhere.

Foreign Affairs commentator Eric Margolis
<http://www.foreigncorrespondent.com/> noted recently the
continuing cycle of American political involvement in the
Middle East. He points out that in nearly every decade since
the mid-fifties, a president of the United States has faced
a challenge of a Muslim peril, an Arab or Muslim bogeyman
that is everywhere and nowhere -- Nasser, Khomeni, Khadafy,
Saddam, and, now, bin Laden. And every time, the results
have been the same: U.S. demonizes this single man, only to
watch him grow into a popular hero of the Arab masses -- the
Arabic or Islamic David that dares to stand up and confront
the U.S. oil dominion over the Arab world and the economic
and political distortion that the US leaves in its wake.

Now, the cycle is beginning again with Bill Clinton, George
W. Bush, and Osama bin Laden. And it has been reported that
in the Middle East over the past few years, Osama has become
the most common name for newborn boys.

JCT: And of course, what we're being told about their
leaders is not what they're being told about their leaders.

And now for the really ugly, scary, terrifying truth:

>Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:00:38 -0800
>From: "Joshua Tinnin" <krinklyfig@...>
>Subject: Our Man in Nirvana

JT: From a decade ago. This is the same Ben Stein of Win Ben
Stein's Money and who appeared as a teacher on Ferris
Bueller's Day Off, the one who is remembered as calling out
role and repeating, "Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?" He's
also in those Clear Eyes ads. Yes, he used to be a
speechwriter for Nixon, too. He's incredibly intelligent,
and is not really a neo-con at all. I don't agree with his
politics all the time, but the guy knows what he's talking
about generally. Now, think about the current president. Am
wondering... - jt
http://www.benzo.org.uk/stein.htm

Our Man in Nirvana
The New York Times
Wednesday, January 22, 1992
by Benjamin J. Stein

Bush takes a strong sedative. Too strong.

(Malibu, Calif.) In the first weeks of August 1974, when I
was a speechwriter for President Richard Nixon, I walked
into the office of the White House physician, next door to
the White House. As I asked for some allergy medicine, I
noticed a surgical-steel tray laden with filled syringes,
their needles dripping. Next to them was a vial of a potent
chlorpromazine tranquilizer.

I knew the corpsman who was loading the tray and I asked him
what it was all about. He said is was for someone "over
there," jerking his thumb toward the White House. He would
not tell me who was getting shots of tranquilizers in those
final days of the Administration. He said only that it was
"someone who needs to have his head clear, and won't."

This all comes to mind with the news that President Bush has
been taking powerful benzodiazepine sedation in the form of
the prescription drug Halcion when he travels. It was also
revealed over a year ago that the Secretary of State, James
A. Baker, had taken Halcion when he went to conferences
overseas.

These are scary tidings. Halcion is the most terrifying drug
I have ever used, and its effects are incalculably more
frightening when they are at work on the President. I have
been taking prescription tranquilizers since 1966. I have
used almost every kind imaginable: phenothiazines,
chlorpromazines and others I cannot recall.

But Halcion, a chemical first-cousin to the tranquilizer
Xanax, is in a class by itself for mind-altering side
effects. It is not a classic sedative, which basically just
slow things down. No, benzodiazepines are described by
Halcion's maker, the Upjohn Company, as "anxiolytics,"
meaning they literally cut the anxiety in your brain.

When Halcion hits you, it's as if an angel of the Lord
appears in your bedroom and tells you that nothing is
important, that everything you were worried about is
happening on Mars and that nirvana, Lethe and the warm arms
of mother are all waiting for you. People who have used
heroin tell me Halcion is better than heroin for making bad
thoughts simply disappear.

The flip side is that in my experience, as in the cases of
many men and women I talk with every day in a program that
helps people get off drugs, Halcion took up residence in my
head. It does not just do its magic and then disappear.
Without it, sleep is almost impossible. I felt depressed and
often suicidal for days after taking it and more or less
permanently depressed if I took it continuously.

It clouds judgment and forecloses careful analysis. It makes
the user alternately supremely confident and then panicky
with as unnameable dread. It causes intense, truly
terrifying forgetfulness, as well as a serene bliss about
that forgetfulness.

A friend of mine took a small dose of Halcion - less than
what the President is reported to take - and then carried a
gun through a metal detector at an airport. He had forgotten
not only that he had a gun with him but also that guns are
illegal at airports. Another friend, a lawyer, repeatedly
failed to show up at her own depositions when she had taken
Halcion the night before.

Halcion is serious medicine. When the President takes it,
it's not just a matter between a civil servant and his
physician. It's questionable whether the physician should
even prescribe it, considering that it is banned in England
and is the subject of major litigation and controversy over
its side-effects in the U.S. and around the world.

A President with a chemical between himself and reality is
the last thing America needs. It's the plot of a suspense
novel, not the stewardship that real life and real problems
need.
Wake up, Mr. President, we need you on the job. And if you
need the drug to sleep when you travel, maybe you should
just stay home.
- Benjamin J. Stein is a lawyer, writer and actor. -

JCT: Wow. but keep in mind that the "Halcion Kid" did tell
us on national TV that "Those who are not for us are against
us."

Anyone opposed to the Halcion Kid with respect to the
terrorist threat becomes the enemy combatant, at home or
abroad. Terrorism is the new threat to replace communism.
The war was never over Iraq, it's always been over the
corruption of America.

Worse of all, the Halcion Junkie is the Amerikan with his
finger on nuclear weapons button. How does that make you all
feel? Knowing he's angry at Canada for not joining in his
bloodfest war crimes, I feel sick and fearful too. Maybe I
need a sedative?


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: No-substance, all-style (most in his coif) Stephen
Harper wrote a large editorial piece in the Ottawa Citizen
urging Canada get in on the Massacre in Iraq too.

He argues the US-led slaughter of an flat-on-their-back
enemy is a slaughter that has the backing of the UN
resolution adopted in 1990. Couldn't get any more recent
resolutions to back up his blood lust?

He gives us a lawyer's view of why the bloodletting is
justified so there's no reason we can't get any blood on our
hands too. Gee. Canadian soldiers haven't killed anyone in
half a century and I guess he thinks it's about time they
started catching up with the American butchers. Again, when
I mean the American butchers, I mean the US Government and
their Torture-Teachers at the US Army School of the
Americas.

He finds the argument that more time UN weapons-inspections
is inadequate. Of course it would be inadequate to quench
our Junior GI Joe's thirst for innocent blood.

He says that Canada's withdrawing from the killing has
betrayed Canada's history and its values. Sure, we went
along with the helping the US slaughters in the past but
most of us have grown to regret them. Yet, here's a Canadian
quacking for a seat in the War Crimes docket. Keep in mind
that there are many of us who are going to want the leaders
of the coalition eventually tried for war crimes someday if
the world survives the Bush dictatorship.

He says the Liberals have left "standing for nothing" when
we could be standing for the slaughter of innocents like
George who this it feels fine to have the massacre started.

He says "we will be with our allies and our friends in the
United States and United Kingdom and around the world. Right
except that I'll be with allies and friends who oppose the
butchery and Stephen will be in War Crimes docket for having
advocated genocide on a helpless foe, the kind of wars
Stephen and George like best. Kick a beaten foe when they're
down. Stephen Harper's kind of battle.

So, I trolled the net looking for the article. The Citizen's
web site doesn't host it, figures. Their home page takes an
hour to load all the pictures to them find out that they
haven't coped with streaming their articles to their web
site. I can't tell you how many times I've looked online for
an article in the paper and it's not there. No wonder nobody
visits and rarely contributes.

But from the Calgary Herald:

>Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003
Lone hawk Harper can't win this war
Don Martin Calgary Herald  <dmartin@...>
Don Martin is the Herald's Ottawa bureau chief.

DM: In a Parliament filled with cooing Canadian doves, he
circles alone as the hawk.

JCT: The perfect GI Joe Jr. with the perfect coif. Actually,
after a year of trying to find an issue to hang his hat on,
sharing in the bloodlust is the best he's managed to be
associated with.

DM: Stephen Harper marks the first anniversary of his
Canadian Alliance leadership victory today as the only party
leader standing firmly on an American war footing.

JCT: The only depraved monster in the House. How fortunate
for us that the Alliance party can't go far with a moron
like leading the charge. Let him join the army if he wants
to taste blood. The American Army.

DM: With the Iraqi invasion beginning and public opinion set
to fluctuate wildly based on the success or stumbles of a
U.S.-led blitzkrieg to oust Saddam Hussein, Harper faces the
greatest risk of becoming Canadian collateral damage.

Tax cuts, the environment, immigration, health care -- stark
policy differences by the five official parties are, at
best, a blur on the public's radar screen between elections.

JCT: That's right. Hapless Harper has nothing to offer when
it comes to issues of substance. He needs a cheerleaders's
uniform to go with his stylish hairdo in rah rah rahing for
participating in Bush's war.

DM: But with the most divisive story of the decade unfolding
today, as our traditional allies rush to crush an Iraqi
regime under extreme military duress, Harper has taken a
defining pro-war position he admits runs counter to majority
public opinion.

JCT: I feel reassured, slightly. After all, public opinion
is what they want the questions in the polls to lead you to.
Do a search at any group that receives TURMEL messages and
do a search for Humphrey Appleby who explains polling
techniques very well.

DM: Harper believes Canada should march to war under
America's military shield. He insists Hussein must go before
Iraq will disarm.

JCT: I wish there was some way we could stick him in the
front trenches for a few hours and then check his shorts. Of
course, this war involves just dropping bombs on a helpless
enemy, a kind of war right up Stephen's alley.

DM: And he doesn't know whether to laugh or cry at the prime
minister's theory that keeping troops perched on the border
will force the Iraqi dictator into good behavior. On all of
the above positions, the Alliance sits isolated in the
Commons.

JCT: Right. I'd want Jean Chretien to bring them home and
send a real message to the Bush dictatorship.

DM: The Liberals, with few MP exceptions, are firmly united
behind Jean Chretien's no-way policy on assisting the
invasion. Paul Martin, the next prime minister, refuses to
allow any daylight between his view and the government's
military neutrality.

JCT: The only problem is that you can never trust
politicians at their word. It never takes much to make a
politician change the mind. Integrity isn't usually part of
the equation, financial support for re-election usually is.

DM: The New Democrats, Bloc Quebecois and, with some
caveats, the Conservatives endorse the stay-at-home stance,
arguing only that all Canada's ships and military personnel
be swept from the Persian Gulf theatre of war lest they
inadvertently assist the Iraq attack.

JCT: Hooray. A whole country of peaceniks with only a few
deviants in the Alliance led by the Junior GI. Quick,
someone give him some fatigues and a potato peeler to give
him an idea of his true worth to the war movement. I'm sure
even Steven would be satisfied handling the kitchen duties
despite wanting to get in on the killing.

DM: Frankly, given the two extreme war scenarios, the odds
favour Chretien scoring a political victory without firing a
single shot.

JCT: True. In an effort to do anything different, Hapless
Harper's blown his wad on sounding as bloodthirsty as our
despot to the south.

DM: In the event of a quick and clean triumph causing
minimal civilian casualties, it's unlikely a victorious U.S.
would hold a serious trading grudge against its northern
pacifist as it tries to whip the economy back into shape to
prevent another one-term George Bush wonder. Thus, Chretien
wins.

JCT: Even less likely if we join economic forces with those
nations that did not go to war, France, Germany, and join
the boycott of US trade and goods that must inevitably
develop as the Bush occupation of Iraq turns into another
such sparkling American victory as the Triumph in Mogadishu.
Once they hit the Bagdhad streets, that is. Jet fighters
help much in urban warfare.

DM: If the war is ugly and long, flashing real-life reruns of
the Black Hawk Down horror movie into living rooms as troops
duke it out on the doorsteps of Bagdhad, Chretien's
neutrality will also look mighty appealing.

JCT: Right you are. My thoughts exactly. This could turn out
better than Belfast. There was no oil in Somalia so losing
American soldiers served no purpose. There is oil in Iraq so
the fodder won't matter to Bush's oil industry buddies.

DM: "A lot of public reaction will depend on how the war
goes," Harper acknowledged in an interview this week. "I'm
not convinced the war will be as bloody and destructive as
some suggest. I could be wrong. Maybe we'll have some
explaining to do, maybe we won't."

JCT: What he means is that he's not convinced the news
reports will be as bloody and destructive as some suggest.
They killed a hundred thousand last massacre and I don't
even remember seeing any corpses. All they keep showing us
is the flying bombs landing and blowing up buildings but
they never show us the blood, gore, human limbs all around,
to give the people at home a real feel for the righteous
victory. It's pretty amazing that the viewers insist on
seeing blood at WWF wrestling which they know is phony and
here's a chance to see some real blood from real people
blown to pieces and they don't demand to see it. War is the
ultimate "reality TV," better than the morbid fascinating of
an accident. You know people are dying, you imagine them
losing arms, legs, eyes, lives, and we don't get to see! We
want blood. Show the blood. Give the people their money's
worth. After all, most news reports have detailed all the
wonderful weapons now available. Why won't they show the
blood and give the people the morbid thrill they're
applauding for? Because it'll make them sick.

Let's put Harper in an Iraqi hospital with a few blown up
babies to explain why it was important that this be done in
2003 when it wasn't important 3 years ago. What changed?

DM: The best scenario to save the Alliance from needing an
explanation is the worst case for Canada. For Harper to
justify a Canadian military role, the economic penalty for
our refusal to play U.S. war games would have to be very
steep, manifested through clogged border crossings,
backlashes against Canadian tourists and trade disputes.
Sadly, that all may yet come to pass.

JCT: So if the Americans want to do economic war because we
wouldn't join them in the dropping bombs on helpless people,
that's the justification for Harper's stand. It's not. It's
cowardice facing a bully. And we can bet that people like
Harper who cravenly back bullies usually don't have the
balls to stand up to bullies themselves. I can't help it but
I'll always think of Stephen, backed up by Bush, with his
pants down and bent over. With Bush backing him up.

DM: Finding himself in war-torn isolation on the debate was
not what Harper had foreseen until this week. Harper had
predicted Canada would ultimately bite the bullet and side
with the Americans, with or without the United Nations'
blessing. "It will not join as a leader, but unnoticed at
the back of the parade," he said in January.

JCT: He calls joining the parade "leadership." Hapless
Harper's kind of leadership from the back of the bully.

DM: Guilty as charged, grins Harper, arguing he couldn't
fathom a prime minister he describes as "gutless,
embarrassing and cowardly" actually taking an unequivocal
stand on the war. "I'm always surprised when the prime
minister appears to take a position on anything."

JCT: Gee, that's what I was thinking of Hap Harper: gutless,
embarrassing, cowardly. I also added fawning, craven, brown-
nosing ass-licker.

DM: And so, Harper enters his second year as Alliance leader
playing solo on the war drums and hoping the noise doesn't
scare off Ontario voters he'll need to grow in electoral
strength.

JCT: What luck that the Alliance should be burdened with
such an ineffectual twit as leader. They should be about as
effective as they were with Preston Manning "go-nowhere"
vision for Canada. Ah well, what to expect than that a party
founded by an intellectual weakling should be now led by
another.

DM: Despite polls which are stubbornly resistant to any
improvement for Harper, it must be said the Calgary MP has
done well, quietly working to pay off the party's debt and
nurturing the grassroots for an election expected in 2004.

JCT: But having no other effect nationally. Being a good
fundraiser in the background just doesn't strike me as the
greatest of claims to fame.

DM: That's when he'll face his mother of all battles with
the daunting challenge of taking out a new prime minister
named Paul Martin, who now surfaces only periodically as a
backbencher -- to Harper's extreme frustration.

JCT: It doesn't matter who the next Liberal leader is with a
lightweight like Hapless Harper at the helm of the
opposition whose 1-trick pony-show is to bay for blood with
the American pack of bullies.

DM: "As leader of the Opposition, I have to go after the
prime minister. I don't have a special pedestal to go after
a guy I can't see or hear," he shrugs. "Paul Martin is a
formidable guy. But his record will be as a Liberal leader."

JCT: And even if the Prime Minister is right, this
opposition leader's intent is to oppose, even if wrong. the
government that is right.

DM: Unfortunately, in a perverted way, Stephen Harper
probably shares Saddam Hussein's plight. He'll never see the
enemy until it's too late. And he's fighting a war he cannot
win.

JCT: That's the ultimate definition of a loser. Then again,
with nothing else to commend him to the voters, at least
he'll get the votes of the odd red-neck sharing his blood-
lust. As I said before, Stephen, you're of age. Go join up
and good riddance to you. Go find yourself some bombs to
play with. Who needs Canada's own Junior GI Joe?


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:51:18 -0800
>From: krinklyfig@... (Joshua Tinnin)
>Subject: Re: [CPOP] TURMEL: #3 Judas Goat Professors
>To: themillionmarijuanamarch@yahoogroups.com,
cp3@yahoogroups.com, StonerTimes@yahoogroups.com

JT: I'm done with this conversation. It doesn't matter to
you one bit if I am who I say I am, you will insist that I
am a spy or mole, which you do to anyone who disagrees with
you.

JCT: A spy is a mole so don't say I gave you only the choice
of being indicted as a spy or a mole. I indicted you as a
spy or a moron. I accept that you can he an honest dupe but
when you refuse to face my real words, I then have to
wonder. I know it hurts to admit you're wrong but you're a
moron as long as you are wrong and do not admit it for the
benefit of other readers.

JT: I have been at the receiving end of abuses of authority,
and it is completely against every fiber in my being to be
associated with those who would have done me harm, denying
my right to medical marijuana as a cancer patient 12 years
ago, and much more. Fuck you. - jt

JCT: And now I've been linked to those denying you your
right to protest? I take it all back. You and the Afghanis
and the Palestinians go blockade those intersections with
your vehicles and your bodies and I predict that like the
Afghanis, and the Palestinians, you'll face exactly the same
kind of justice in the end.

Oh, and by the way, I've spent the last two years of my life
in judicial combat with the government over getting you your
medical marijuana so don't mix up your friends with your
enemies.

Now for the benefit of the rest of us, just posted on the
very same day I suggested learning more about the Patriot
Acts would be of use, here is an in-depth analysis arrived
in my box within hours. You're going to get a similar
version of this in your country unless the AmeriCans manage
to get it repealed so you may as well know how quickly and
easily it is for you to lose all your rights in an instant:

>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 22:58:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: dendecannabist@... (DdC)
>Subject: [A Marijuana Smoker's Lounge 2] Patriot Act II

TOTAL POLICE STATE TAKEOVER
The Secret Patriot Act II Destroys What Is Left of American
Liberty

A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act
2003, Also Known as Patriot Act II
By Alex Jones  http://www.infowars.com , February 10, 2003

AJ: Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times
that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first
Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27,
2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil
libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the
political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the
New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by
saying that President Bush was "seizing dictatorial control.
On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-
partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full
text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The
classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed
source inside the Federal government. The document consisted
of a 33-page section by section analysis of the accompanying
87-page bill.

JCT: Ron Paul is one of the few AmeriCan politicians who
always seems to be fighting the good fight. I don't remember
him ever puking me out like most of all the other reformers
do.

AJ: The bill itself is stamped "Confidential - Not for
Distribution." Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was
stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in
the legislation. The Justice Department Office of
Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly
transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the
House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the
United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of
federal law enforcement agencies. It is important to note
that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first
Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was
tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions
of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot
Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that
led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

JCT: Incredible, isn't it? Incredible that all those
political representatives should vote away their civil
rights in a stampede of vengeance to get Saddam. Sorry, then
it was Osama and somehow, it switched to Osama's enemy,
Saddam. Always said Osama was working with Bush and Bush
using Saddam's enemy to commit the atrocity that lets Bush
go after Saddam is a joke worthy of the annals of history.

Amazingly, there are reports that up to 50% of Americans
believe that Saddam did 9-11. One has to wonder how that
belief could come about in a free and democratic society
when Internet readers know it can't be true. Then again, the
majority aren't Internet readers, they're the "illiterati"
being brainwashed by their boob-tubes who can be led to
believe a patently false premise.

Noam Chomsky calls it Manufacturing Consent, one of the
greatest movies and books on propaganda ever done. All
without Noam appreciating how debt slavery by interest rates
generates it all. He's great at detailing how the "elites"
oppress the majority to steal their resources but can't
tackle the why in a world where there's plenty go go around.
Only people who understand "poverty with abundance" know how
that works. Only people who understand how interest rates
create an impossible artificial shortage know how that
works. Monetary technicians, rarely linguist philosophers,
no matter how great they are in detailing the obvious.

AJ: There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at
concerning this new legislation:

1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and
Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this
legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China
than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney
publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first
Patriot Act, insuring that no one was allowed to read it and
publicly threatening member on Congress that if they didn't
vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next
terrorist attack, is by the White House's own definition
terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully
passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is
clearly an impeachable offence.

JCT: Incredible, isn't it. As he said, what we'd have
expected from Stalinist Russia, not Bushist Amerika.

AJ: 2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers
that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas
the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth
and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and
the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire
Federal government as well as many areas of state government
under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the
Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military
command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also
known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the
definition of dictatorship.I challenge all Americans to
study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the
Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of
Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do
with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab
with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It
strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants
the government and its private agents total immunity.

JCT: And all it takes is for the CIA to plant one bomb or
for George Bush to call off the Air Force protection just
once again for it all to turn into a monster worst than
Stalin could have dreamed of. Luckily, there may for awhile
still be a bastion of freedom to your North transmitting
denouncement of the despot.

AJ: Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the
draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical
legislation:

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush
administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all
American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of
Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the
new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is
"any action that endangers human life that is a violation of
any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second
Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same
act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the
incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act
isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of
terrorism is needed.  Under Section 501 a US citizen
engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street
and thrown into a van never to be seen again.

JCT: Do Naomi Klein and the kids beating down the fences
at anti-bank globalisation protests fit the new definition
of "enemy combatant" with the accusation of "any action that
endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or
State law?" They say they caused $17 million in damage at
the Battle in Seattle but I only saw one Starbucks window
busted. The damages started at the $10000 for the window and
now include the $16,990,000 for police protection being also
called damages.

Still, that's what they're facing. Under Section 501 a US
citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the
street and thrown into a van never to be seen again, just
like the movies of Stalinist Russia. Of course, my thesis is
that it's the same Masters' Intelligence Agency who ran
Stalinist Russia who are running George Bush so you'd expect
the same tactics now as then.

AJ: The Justice Department states that they can do this
because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they
were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA
Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State
law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist
designation.

JCT: So Josh, has your presence at these public protests
already put you in the "enemy combatant" terrorist
designation yet? Are you going to keep trying now?

AJ: SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a
criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen
to release any information concerning the incarceration or
whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law
enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they
have arrested and they never have to release the names.

JCT: Wow, I never heard of Stalin doing that. Then again,
they didn't have an internet then. Incredible this police
state they are building for Amerikans incredible?

AJ: SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database)
set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and
radically expand the database to include anyone associated
with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in
crimes or having supported any group designated as
"terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA
database for anyone on probation or who has been on
probation for any crime, and orders State governments to
collect the DNA for the Federal government.

JCT: Run by John Poindexter, the notoriously crooked MIA
agent for decades, convicted for lying to Congress, being
put in charge of the Stalinist Secret Information Police!

AJ: SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging
in spying operations against the American people and would
place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against
Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

JCT: Just like Amerika insisted that only Amerikans be
exempted from the jurisdiction of the World Court and our
representatives accepted that. George Bush already has
immunity when comes time for his trial on Crimes Against
Humanity. But I don't think Tony Blair gets immunity or any
of the other national leaders for their war of aggression on
a prostrate disarmed nation that was no direct threat to any
of them. But George Bush gets to beat the charge! And Tony
Blair accepted the rules that the Amerikans can beat the
genocide charges but he and the other leaders of the
Aggressor Nations won't be able to duck. At least, everyone
will be saying the Amerikan Fuhrer made me do it, though the
last time "the Fuhrer made me do it" was pleaded at
Nuremberg, it didn't win the day. At least we won't be
executing Tony Blair once capital punishment is outlawed
world-wide before his trial.

AJ: SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as
foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the
"enemy combatant" designation.

JCT: Josh, for impeding and urging the impeding of the war
effort, you are now designated a foreign power and stripped
of all your rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.
Feeling any iller now? Are you happy having your picture
taken at the demonstrations to impede the Amerikan War
effort?

AJ: SECTION 102 states clearly that any information
gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are
illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence
activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering
illegal.

JCT: Gotcha Josh. You have been gathering resistance
information and you stand convicted before the Patriot Act.

AJ: SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime
martial law powers domestically and internationally without
Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

JCT: George, all alone, gets to call martial law any time he
feels like it and there's nothing anyone can do about it any
more.

AJ: SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness.
It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA
court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber
system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted
under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states
that government agents must be given immunity for carrying
out searches with no prior court approval. This section
throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable
searches and seizures.

JCT: Adios muchachos to your privacy rights.

AJ: SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue
contempt charges against any individual or corporation who
refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections
annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

JCT: This one I couldn't care less about. It's a totally
valueless right in a high-tech world. It was based on a
presumption of ignorance on the part of the defendant when
there was no right to counsel. I'd give up this right in an
instant. If there's an arson and I'm the only guy in
vicinity with matches and an empty gas tank, I think I owe
society an explanation without further proof. But the
inanities of the US Justice system whose major claim to
jokester fame is the barring of some true evidence from
those who will decide are not to be laughed at now.

AJ: SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in
the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the
five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first
Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "this is the
New America. Get used to it. This is forever."

JCT: The first Act was for only 5 years so no one objected
at the time and within another year, it's going to be
forever.

AJ: SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy
combatant" designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power
of "surveillance without a court order."

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs
warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-
style sweep described in press reports about the Total
Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the
focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that
directed against more conventional types of crime."

JCT: Dragnets forcing many to prove their innocence. Just
like the days of Stalin's "show me your papers."

AJ: *Note: Over and over again, in subsection after
subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new
Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international
terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of
course the government has already announced in Section 802
of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered
domestic terrorism.

JCT: And it can all be unleashed with one "from Saddam"
firecracker anywhere in the States.

AJ: SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the
entire spectrum of public and private sector information
from bank records to educational and medical records. This
is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total
Information Awareness Network to take break down any and all
walls of privacy. The government states that they must look
at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might
have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see,
you are guilty until proven innocent.

JCT: First of all, right to privacy is another right I'll
give up without a fight. I do nothing wrong and do not need
nor expect privacy. Let them check all they want. So that's
an other stupid useless right I'll chuck with no regrets.
Though "guilty until proven innocent" is a different matter.

AJ: SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners'
and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See
how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he
had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide
when their arms and legs had been cut off.

JCT: The abuse is wrong, the examinations whenever the
authorities see fit I can live with.

AJ: SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag
orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over
the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or
organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So
now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

JCT: Now they're going to be able to make being a guerrilla
lawyer a crime too.

AJ: SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower
protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their
activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological
materials.

JCT: Wow, that's in a "protection of the homeland" bill!
Less protection of the homeland! Keep in mind that in
politics, what's really going on is usually the most
hypocritical thing you can imagine. When US President Ronald
Reagan was accusing the Sandinistas of drug-running to
finance their defence against his Contra aggressors, what
would be the most hypocritical thing possible be? That it
was the Contras who were smuggling the dope to finance their
attacks on the Sandinistas who had liberated themselves from
the US-installed Somosa dictatorship. And Amerika kept
attacking them with the message that they'd continue until
the Sandinistas were replaced and they did until they were.

AJ: SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all
their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating
them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very
useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating
Haliburton.

JCT: Of course.

AJ: SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected
terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other
unlawful activities." It will share the information with
state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

JCT: This is no problem in a just world.

AJ: SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in
the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses,
especially big businesses that spy on their customers for
Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It
goes on to say that these are all preventative measures -
has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for
the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the
American people and to share information with foreign
governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process
and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to
extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also
allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of
foreign countries.

JCT: That's what they did with that Arab-Canadian engineer
who was passing through a US airport. Send him back to his
country where they wanted to kill him. I'm not sure if he's
been killed yet but at least we all know that it was the
Americans who handed a Canadian over to non-Canadians who
would do him harm.

AJ: SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to
Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement
to show that the individual even had the intent to aid
terrorists.

JCT: No criminal intent and you can be executed. Sounds as
dangerous as your worst movie nightmare.

AJ: SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass
destruction to include any activity that affects interstate
or foreign commerce.

JCT: Wow. Affect interstate commerce by blocking a road and
stand accused of using a weapon of mass destruction.

AJ: SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other
criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

JCT: Wow. Though being an open-information politician and
having nothing at all that I'm ashamed of to hide, I've
never had to use encryption.

AJ: SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically,
slavery) for a whole host of crimes. SECTION 410 creates no
statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist
actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now
considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

JCT: Hey, that's not so bad. Like the Rothschilds chortled
in the last century about the advantages of debt slavery
over real slavery, after all their work and
life-savings have been sucked out of the debt slaves,
there's no need to even take care of the slaves when they
get old like they would have under the old chattel slavery
system they all loved so much. If George is thinking of re-
instituting chattel slavery, at least they're not going to
kill all of us "useless eaters." Never thought I'd hear
myself saying that their plans for enslaving us are better
news than I was expecting.

AJ: SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death.
Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act
and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act
can result in the death penalty.

JCT: So Josh, any thoughts of moving to Canada while you
still can? And if you don't get out in time, don't you feel
reassured knowing that a shit-disturber like me is going to
asking asking about you once your transmission has been shut
down?

AJ: SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing.
This section states that any type of financial activity
connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and
$10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone
engaging in terrorist activities. There are many other
sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The
American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the
first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police
state legislation in modern world history. Usually, corrupt
governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on
paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression
covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless
searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list. You
can understand why President Bush, Dick Cheney and Dennis
Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from
Congress, but the American people as well.

JCT: Marijuana-smoking Amerika has already had a taste of
the "take your homes" police. Now they're about to
experience the deluxe version.

AJ: Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public
Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my
radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting
for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this
new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful
comment about how the Federal government was crafting this
so that they could go after the American people in general.
He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing
patriots and Christians and "those who carry around pocket
Constitutions."  I have produced two documentary films and
written a book about what really happened on September 11th.
The bottom line is this: the military-industrial complex
carried the attacks out as a pretext for control. Anyone who
doubts this just hasn't looked at the mountains of hard
evidence.

Of course, the current group of white collar criminals in
the White House might not care that we're finding out the
details of their next phase. Because, after all, when
smallpox gets released, or more buildings start blowing up,
the President can stand up there at his lectern suppressing
a smirk, squeeze out a tear or two, and tell us that "See I
was right. I had to take away your rights to keep you safe.
And now it's your fault that all of these children are
dead." From that point on, anyone who criticizes tyranny
will be shouted down by the paid talking head government
mouthpieces in the mainstream media. You have to admit, it's
a beautiful script. Unfortunately, it's being played out in
the real world. If we don't get the word out that government
is using terror to control our lives while doing nothing to
stop the terrorists, we will deserve what we get - tyranny.
But our children won't deserve it.
http://www.infowars.com/print_patriotact2_analysis.htm

JCT: So, bright boys, the whole point of all this is that
you must defocus your attention from protesting the war on
Iraq to protesting the war on your civil rights. There
should be millions in the streets protesting the Patriot
Acts, not our boys fighting Saddam. Which is how the paid
media will be portraying it, right?

And last point in all this Josh, when you've finally been
ensconced in your toilet-less cell and your sores and
infections are starting to bother you, you'll remember that
the General of the debt slaves in revolt over their
financial chains gave you one weird piece of information
that is going to save your life. The Healer from Within.

Kidney Milk will disinfect your wounds and make you strong.
Laugh now but I think it's something those of you facing
these onerous charges will probably soon be very happy I
taught you about.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:32:56 -0800
>From: krinklyfig@... (Joshua Tinnin)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Judas Goat Professors for Peace?
>To: cp3@yahoogroups.com, StonerTimes@yahoogroups.com,
>themillionmarijuanamarch@yahoogroups.com

JT: Civil disobedience now qualifies as "war measures?"

JCT: In times of war, civil disobedience is called sabotage.
What would you call it. And find me one government that
would stand for civil disobedience in time of war. Why does
everyone think George keeps calling his Slaughter on Iraq a
"war?" It's not really about Iraq, it's about seizing
control at home with Iraq as the War that enables it all.


JT: Anyway, I suppose you and I will just have to agree to
disagree. I never said the Patriot Act(s) are not of any
concern (and I have read BOTH in their entirety several
times, thank you), but I contend that it should not be used
to scare people into silence.

JCT: Cheap shot. I specifically said that the only thing
that you may disturb is their silence and I specifically
compared complaining to my representatives as opposed to
interfering with the war effort like these Judas Goat profs
are leading the sheeple to the slaughterhouse.

JT: Do what you have to do, but don't tell people that they
are going to be executed when that is not going to happen.

JCT: Joshua Tinnin says so and if they start, Joshua
Tinnin's going to do... what about it? The point is that
secret executions are not legal in Amerika and until your
Patriot Acts are abrogated, repealed and annuled, you are a
dictatorship whether it looks like the ones of yore or not.
I'm sure there were those who also said "that's not going to
happen" when Stalin took over. "Too many of us to kill." All
the standard sops to facing reality. The tactics the
Washington 50 Years Is Enough Organization have trained the
kids to do, attack fences, block intersections, are all
treason in times of war.

JT: Yes, I know the lessons of history, but it hasn't quite
gotten to the point where we are under a Stalinist rule.

JCT: Your government now has the right to execute you in
secret that they never had before. That's not enough of a
warning sign for you? When will it have "gotten to the
point?" And when it does, then what can you do? You have to
face that you're there now even though you still retain some
power to protest. The grand-daddy of reform protesters would
never be telling you to stop, I'm only warning you not to
blow your freedom and power in futile gestures like impeding
the war effort by blocking intersections.

JT: If there is a Red Alert anytime in the near (or far)
future, however, due to a terrorist attack or otherwise,
then I would advise *everyone* to stay inside!

JCT: And if the White House was capable of calling off the
Air Force Protection so the planes could get through to hit
New York, you don't think Washington can't order the CIA to
log a few "From Saddam" grenades to make you now stay in
your homes. I'm only saying that if the Nutty Professors
ever did convince a large enough group to impede the war
effort, it would hasten the slide to despotic rule.

JT: I am serious about that. No protesters, nobody should be
outside if that happens.

JCT: Josh needs another bomb or two before he heeds that
advice. I'm telling you in Amerika that as long as you are
now ruled by your Patriot Act, nobody should "get in the
way." I don't say "don't be in the streets," since I won't
be stopped, but I do say that your attitudes and latitudes
must change. No more pushing a cop, no more threatening a
cop, no more masks (could be Saddam hiding under it), a lot
more "no mores" but not yet all.

As a protest-instructor with an alternative to offer that
I'd like my protesters to adopt, I've never been viewed as a
threat like the protest-obstructers with no solutions are.
My goal is to lobby, their goal is to tear down a fence.
Cops don't mind you lobbying, especially for interest-free
mortgages for them too, but they do mind you tearing down
something that it's their job to prevent. See the
difference? Anyway, when the Big Pretext finally blows
somewhere, then Josh will remain safe indoors and I'll be
the only protester on the sidewalks of the streets and then
we'll see who will be judge the coward.

JT: If it does, then it might get to that point, but,
honestly, we aren't there, yet.

JCT: I say you're past the point of no return. Come on, your
Supreme Court stole the election for Bush. When it got
tight, instead of calling for the finest scrutiny, they
called the none!

George has slaughtered thousands of innocent people in
Afghanistan. And now, he's going after Iraqis again. I can
understand Iraq. They're so beaten down and flat on their
back that this campaign will be up there with the other
grand military campaigns like the War on Grenada.

JT: Yes, you could be right about them not laying the
charges just yet.

JCT: They're sand-bagging them, leading them into a trap.
When George finally declares martial law, don't you think
they know who they're going to be arresting in the first
days already? Heck, they may even pretend that the
protesters are having an effect to lure more into
indicting and identifying themselves in the streets.

JT: But I wish people in the USSR had fought a bit harder
for their own freedoms before Stalin had the chance to
destroy them.

JCT: Josh, you've failed to effect any real change with all
your efforts because you never aimed at the machine that
was financing your slavery, the banking system. What would
you have had them do that you ever did to change anything.
And this is no criticism, it takes a certain kind of genius
to understand how the money system hypnotizes mankind into
trying to pay back 11 tokens when the banks only printed and
issued 10 where the only way to win is to beat your fellow
borrower out of some of his and let him suffer foreclosure.
A musical chairs game to see who gets foreclosed on. But
with the UNILETS on the UN agenda to solve it world-wide,
things aren't all that bad.

JT: In the meantime, I don't advocate anyone do anything but
that which they feel they should do.

JCT: And I say that doing what these nutty professors
suggest is treason that can get you killed. I do advocate
that no one do anything that can be construed later as
treason against the war effort. Standing on a sidewalk with
a protest sign is the only kind of treason that won't get
you killed, hopefully.

JT: I was not arrested in the demonstrations yesterday, and,
honestly, I can't afford to put myself in that position
right now at all, so I was not practicing civil
disobedience.

JCT: And if those who were arrested now don't get out of
jail on bail because you're now at war, how has that helped
the peace effort? Now that the war is on, the streets are
not the place to be. The sidewalks are.

JT: It's an individual choice, and I'd never tell someone
they should get arrested for anything. I never advocated
people get arrested or practice civil disobedience at all.

JCT: But the nutty professors did suggest committing
sabotage in time of war, treason. I pointed it out. And here
you admit that you're scared of your circumstances like
you've never been scared before and yet you have told people
not to worry!

JT: I simply questioned your position on it, and from that
you inferred all sorts of wild stuff about me.

JCT: No, I inferred what would be said about you once a
bunch of people who ignored my warning because of your post
get run over at an intersection by tanks rushing supplies to
our boys in the field. Sure, you could apologize and say you
were not some government agent provocateur pushing peace-
niks to interfering in any way with men with guns in time of
war but you were only a dolt for not seeing the danger. The
medpot movement is filled with moles and morons. Same here
if you persist denying the danger of impeding the Amerikan
war effort.

JT: "Me and my vehicles?" I have no idea what this is
supposed to mean...

JCT: It means that they're going to not only crush your
vehicle blockade but they might crush you too. Crushing
seems to be the way for peace-nik protest martyrs to go.

JT: a provocateur? Wow, if only I were that important. I'm
just a working-class guy with an opinion, and am not
affiliated with any group.

JCT: Which means that when the CIA offered you an extra $100
a week for the rest of your life when you finished school if
you'd stay on the hidden pay-roll until you, an ordinary
guy, are called on but not before, sleepers, you said no?
I've explained over and over that people paid by secret
intelligence agencies with unlimited budgets are placed
everywhere to do the dirty deed when the MIA (Masters
Intelligence Agency) orders it.

JT: I share these opinions, as do you. But you try to paint
anyone who disagrees with you as some sort of government
agent or spy.

JCT: I never said you were a agent provocateur mole, I
always leave open the possibility you're a moron being
duped.

JT: Seriously, John, that's the furthest thing from the
truth.

JCT: Which, being the mole or being the moron?

JT: You know my name, and you could even look up my address
on the 'net if you wished. I'll even introduce you to my
family if you want, who live primarily in New Mexico (my
parents' families - I am not married, nor do I have
children). I have nothing to hide, and am not advocating
anything. - jt

JCT: And none of this matters if you're being paid your $100
a week to urge people to ignore the dangers in the streets
and just go ahead and give George the pretext he needs to
declare martial law.

If I could offer any suggestion, I'd say that the time for
"Direct Action" in the streets is over. It's time for
peaceful walking on the sidewalks. Anything that can be
construed as more than information imparting, anything that
has any connotation of violence in impeding the war effort,
can be tried as treason. And why risk a charge of treason
for a gain of nothing like blocking intersections gains
nothing of use.

Now's the time to talk your head off to your neighbors, your
friends, your representatives, media, everyone, while you
still can but getting yourself thrown in jail and executed
for nothing useful is folly.

Amerika is no longer the America we used to know and love.
Amerika is now a rogue nation committing illegal aggressions
on its neighbors knowing no one's ever going to ever get
another chance to complain anyway.

Have they no shame? Why should they when they can't be
stopped? They own the world and all its resources.

So talk, walk, but don't balk at moving when they tell you
to. "I lost my keys" is too stupid an epitaph to end up with.

Take it from a real Professor, the TajProfessor, that the
smart bet is to stay in the game and not join the nutty
professors in their foolish escapades. Have you understood
that someone of them censored every word about the LETS
anti-poverty system from their other members? Can you
appreciate the implications of that? I can.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:57:15 -0800
>From: krinklyfig@... (Joshua Tinnin)
>Subject: [millionmarijuanamarch] Re: TURMEL: Professors for
>To: cp3@yahoogroups.com, StonerTimes@yahoogroups.com,
>themillionmarijuanamarch@yahoogroups.com

JT: Hey, John,

I suggest that you take a look at the news. Hundreds of
thousands of protesters are practicing civil disobedience.

JCT: With charges under the new Patriot I and II Acts. Do
you know how the punishments and rights have changed?

JT: They aren't executing them. The jails can't hold all of
them.

JCT: That's what they told Stalin. He proved them wrong.

JT: They are basically giving people a ticket and letting
them go, as there is no place to put them all.

JCT: And most judges are basically doing the same thing for
jailable marijuana offences. Right? No worry? Ask my brother
who's still facing a year and a half.

JCT: This is not treason, John, and trying to scare people
into thinking they will be executed for practicing non-
violent disobedience is shameful.

JCT: Okay, call impeding the national security war effort,
stopping those supplies from getting to "our boys" whatever
you want but don't tell me you're not facing capital
punishment if charged under Patriot Acts as a saboteur or
friend of Saddam. But in Amerika, the secret services are
already building their "Naomi Klein" files on activists for
future use now that the war has been declared and their
actions are now treason in war-time. Do you realize that the
definition of treason has now changed in Amerika? That the
threshold for being charged has changed and the punishments
too and the rights of the accused too? Legislation all
passed while you slept by your representatives.

Have you realized that people can now be executed without
anyone non-establishment finding out? And yet, most of the
booboisie hypnotized by their media news have no idea of the
truth and are no threat. These kind of reactionary
revolutions always kill all the intellectuals. Those who
know what happened. That's us who read the Internet truth,
not the illiterati at the boob-tube.

I'd bet you haven't even read the Patriot Act? I'd love Cen
to go post it here and scare your willies. But get this
right, you poor no-rights Amerikan, now that the war is on,
everything you do to obstruct it will later be used against
you. "Oh, they haven't come after us yet," isn't what I'd
call reassuring. Stalin took his time for the first few
years too. And I think George is scarier than Stalin.

JT: You're not even in this country, you're in Canada.

JCT: Your only real hope in the States right now is that we
in still-free Canada, bless Jean Chretien's heart - I never
thought I hear me say it - continue to legally be able to
hit the streets and protest but when Canada imposes our own
Patriot Acts as War Measures, you're not going to see me
anywhere with a picket sign by off the streets, at a
respectful distance, where they'll legally let me.

JT: I'm glad you weren't around to advise Gandhi when he
stood up to the British.

JCT: He never advocated standing up to the Britishand impede
their war effort. He advocated more a strategy of sitting
down. Imagine what would have happened if he had decided to
start blocking roads and bridges. Imagine doing what these
Judas goat professors suggest be done in Palestine! Those
tactics are great in times of peace but not in times where
the new Patriot Acts lets the government execute you in
secret for treasonous love for Saddam."

JT: You're a coward, and one trying to advise more cowardice
from another country. - jt

JCT: Take it from the grand-daddy of globalization
protesters who was protesting our enslavement all alone
before you were even aware of the danger, see my arrest
at the World Bank -IMF at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/imf82.htm in 1982 before
there were any others. Consider that what you call
cowardice, I call prudence. He who protests and runs away
lives to protest another day.

I've been arrested for protesting more times than you can
imagine. I'm known as Canada's 'interest-rate protestor"
"Bank of Canada picketer," "bank-basher," "bank-fighter
extraordinaire," and you think that when I point out that
the rules of protest have changed in ways to make protesting
dangerous to your health under Patriot Courrs of Injustice,
makes me a coward, that statement makes you a fool. It's not
cowardice that makes the most daring powerful protester
you'll ever meet bow to circumstances, the rules of the game
have changed. Protesting in Amerika is now as illegally
dangerous as protesting in Palestine or Afghanistan even if
they haven't started laying the charges yet.

This coward is not going to be put out of action for
blocking an intersection. This coward is only going to put
out of action for blocking something with my voice, not by
body.

The game has changed. When Canada gets our Patriot War
Measures Act, you won't see me in the streets aiming at
nothing victories. You'll hear me in my M.P.s email, in
public gatherings, anywhere legal.

Of course, I believe that the slavery system by the banking
system is complete and they can institute total world
control in an instant all along. Understand. I don't
understand why they left some people free. Until now,
anyway. Are they ready to permit a whole liberation or are
they ready to impose a whole slavery? Sure looks like a
police state coming in the greatest democracies before the
sleeping even know it.

But while speech is still free, there's the fighting chance.
But getting you and your vehicles towed sounds like bunch of
moles building up their Naomi Klein dossiers before martial
law is finally ordered. Then, Josh, where you gonna hide?
Unless you're an agent provocateur whose job it is to
reassure the readers there really is so little danger for
you as an American that a Canadian like me shouldn't be
urging caution as to the more foolhardy and eventually-
useless forms of protest.

And impeding the war has to be about the looniest idea any
group of professors could have come up with. Come on, if
these guys aren't some kind of CIA-KGB-MI5-MOSSAD-IRAQ-
INTELLIGENCE scam urging "now-capital-crime" obstructions of
the war effort, what else are they?

Keep in mind that I believe that all secret intelligence
agencies are part of the overall secret MIA. Masters
Intelligence Agency of those men who own us debt slaves for
which we toil, those who reap the crops we have sown. The
Masters' Intelligence Agency subsumes all national agencies,
obviously. And the traces of its international machinations
are everywhere to see if you look for it.

The guys who own everything on the planet so so many own
nothing pay to know everything everywhere . It would be
stupid not to use the money you can create to prostitute
everyone. And they try and the succeed.

I'm just hoping that they're scared enough of ecological
catastrophe now looming to let the slaves free to save
ourselves our Earthship. Which explains why I was left alive
and permitted to infect their international banking software
with my Heavenly LETS financial virus. Or they couldn't
stop it. Yet, they could have. Still could. With martial
law.

So http://groups.yahoo.com/group/professors_for_peace is
where the guys who've censored every word about the LETS
anti-poverty mechanism that has brought to peace to Arabs
and Jews in Jerusalem hang out. Tell me how much interest in
peace these guys have to suppress every mention of the
success of LETS in ending poverty by economic cooperation
between former enemies.

I just find it an interesting juxtaposition of causes
approaching solution. Cannabis legalisation will provide
the biomass to replace fossil fuels, LETS will provide the
honest accounting of it all, and gambling and prostitution
legalisation lets me retire into a fun retirement and old-
age.

And hey, Josh says that the Patriot Acts should be of no
real concern to the committed reformer. These Judas Goat
Professors for Perdition say it takes war measures to stop
the war. It takes peace measures. Don't let them fool you
into ending up with "executed in a righteous cause" on your
tombstones.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:00:32 -0500 (EST)
>From: Censorthis1@...
>Subject: [MedPot-discuss] professors for peace call for
>Professors for Peace http://www.action-tank.org/pfp/

PROFESSORS FOR PEACE CALL FOR GENERAL STRIKE
BOYCOTT US PRODUCTS- SHUTDOWN TRANSPORTATION-ECONOMY!

JCT: Before we go into what these so-called "Professors for
Peace" are really about, they are not about economic reform.
They have suppressed all my posts about the LETS interest-
free timecurrency systems sweeping the world from their
yahoogroups.com and no matter how many good people are being
touted in the organization, if there are moles and traitors
at the top, just like in the medpot movement, then all that
effort turns into a complete waste and loss.

Why would the moderators of the so-called Professor for
Peace group silently suppress every mention of the anti-
poverty LETS that I keep sending them. You can bet that most
of the learned professors would be shocked at finding out
the censorship wielded in their names. Still, the point is
that these are protest-obstructors with no lasting solution
to offer and with a guaranteed censorship to ensure no
lasting solution will ever make it to their pages.

As long as it's fighting to end as symptom, they'll be
there, leading the way demanding peace. But when it comes to
engineering peace, not just talk, the gas-bags have no
solution other than that everything will work out if we all
lover one another. Love will lift our chains. Why worry
about the nuts and bolts of financial slavery when we can be
worrying about our own real life's chains' nuts and bolts? x

POP: "I'm so honored to be here," he said. "I'm so honored
to be alive at such a miraculous time in history. I'm so
moved by what's going on in our world today." "We, the world
community, are WAGING peace. It is difficult, hard work. It
is constant and WE MUST NOT LET UP." Dr. Robert Muller,
former assistant secretary general of the United Nations "A
time has come when silence is betrayal. That time is now."
Martin Luther King Jr.

Professors for Peace call for General Strike!

JCT: Oh, a loud "ouch" is their solution to the world's
problems. Let's all take a day off work and shout "ouch."
"Do something." That's progress?

POP: When the U.S. government announces the commencement of
the war against Iraq, go on strike. Take your car and park
in the nearest major intersection. Block our freeways,
bridges and subway entrances. Close down our cities. If you
have no car, find a group of like-minded people and lie down
in an intersection. No more business as usual. Close down
our cities and stop the war machine!

JCT: He doesn't mention that you go to jail as a supporter
of Saddam Hussein, lose your civil rights and can be
executed by Dubya for your treason. Sure, suckers, have fun
facing George's new Patriot II Act's "sabotage" charges in
court. And keep in mind, when they floated the trial balloon
recently about the whether it's permissible to torture if
it's important enough, it means they're already doing it and
preparing the way to legitimize it. Carol Brouillet's, one
of the people most likely to end up charged with impeding
the war, might learn the hard way she should have fought the
system that was financing it all before they got her behind
bars.

Notice that this is the same "bring your gas-masks and
combat-boots" pitch as the "50Years.org" 50 Years is Enough"
organisation kept urging Globalisation protesters. Yet they
were those who suppressed every mention of LETS anti-poverty
banking systems engineering as they lead the anti-bank
movement. Judas goats leading the protestors astray.

POP: Nonviolent civil disobedience is an American tradition
150 years old. First coined by Henry David Thoreau, adopted
by Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, it has been
credited for the success of Gandhi's independence movement,
the U.S. civil rights movement, and the South African
campaign against apartheid.

JCT: Nonviolent civil disobedience impeding the war is not
such a great idea. Now that it is officially on, especially
once the first American blood is shed, I can't imagine Carol
finding herself a very friendly jury anywhere. Those tactics
are great in times of peace but not in times where the new
Patriot Acts lets the government execute you in secret for
it. By the way, has anyone seen or heard from Carol
recently?

POP: There is nothing to be afraid of. Towing your car might
cost between $85 and $110, but with the streets totally
jammed they can't tow us. This war will cost you much more
than $110. And what's more valuable, your car or human
lives? Put your body on the street. Call out to all those
who are against this war to join you. Let those who support
this war see our power.

JCT: Nothing to be afraid of? Towing your car is the least
of your worries. It's having you towed with your car you
should be thinking of. It's too late now in the States for
this. You are now at war. You are now talking treason.

The President has the right to execute you to stop you doing
sabotaging his efforts in times of national emergency like
wars. And boy, do you Americans deserve getting what your
government has taught so many other dictatorships to do to
their people all over the world, many must be thinking.

POP: Your excuses? You can't find your keys (give them to a
friend, or hide them in your socks). You're "looking for a
mechanic." You felt dizzy, were about to black out, or were
afraid you were having a heart attack. You need your
"medication" and demand to be taken to the hospital. Pretend
to faint.

JCT: Imagine telling the judge who is about to pronounce
your death sentence that you did it because you couldn't
find your keyes. Will the judge really believe that you just
"gave them to your friend," sitting with you in docket not
knowing what this is all about. He doesn't even drive but
they don't give no-rights saboteurs lawyers.

POP: Tell the police you saw a wounded child or someone
being beaten. Tell them you had to stop because the cars in
front of you were stopped. Tell them you are afraid.

JCT: Sure, I'd love the hear the hanging judge's verdict
with your plea.

POP You won't need excuses anyway. There will be thousands
of us, all over our cities. 200,000 or a million, we'll
outmatch the jailcells and police 100 to 1. Where will they
tow 15,000 cars? They won't even be able to reach us because
the cities will be gridlocked. We may live in a digital
world, but everyone still drives on the ground. Shut down
the cities! Vote with your feet!

JCT: I guess he hasn't heard that FEMA, the Federal
Emergency Management Authority where George gets to run the
world once he owns it, has long-agi built civilian
internment camps all over states. You think they're going to
run out of cells? You think all cells are going to have
toilet facilities?

POP: When the war starts, we must act immediately.

JCT: When the war starts, acting becomes treason punishable
by death in secret courts. Now continue:

POP: Modern wars last weeks, not years. One day's bombing
kills untold numbers of people. Ending the war in Vietnam
took years of protest, but it also took years to unfold its
mass destruction.

JCT: No matter when it ends, the jail sentences incurred in
them don't end when peace is declared.

POP: From everything the news media tells us, this war will
be different. The Germans invented the concept of
Blitzkrieg, "lightning war," and today's American technology
has perfected it. The U.S. government is counting on your
apathy. They are counting on the "Desert Storm" effect:
before the Gulf war in 1991, the majority of people in this
country were opposed to military intervention, but once the
war began Americans rallied around their president.

JCT: But once your rights are gone after the first day, why
are so sure that they'll come back after a short war. Isn't
George going to go after Libya next?

POP: We need to do the opposite. Respond immediately and
loudly. Hit the streets. Show the world what "freedom,"
"democracy," and "justice" really mean.

JCT: Too late, too wrong. Anything you now do to object to
the war is treason and your own Patriot Act gives your
Fuhrer the power to kill you for it.

POP: The corporations, big oil and the religious right have
hijacked this country and they have hijacked our language.
Take them back. Take back "the moral high ground,"
"compassion" and "truth." Take back "America," and "God."

JCT: No, you idiots hi-jacked the movement when you did not
let the solution to poverty be told to your professors. You
led them down the protest-obstruction trail to treason and
withheld the peaceful software solution. Now it's too late.

POP: If the war doesn't stop, start blockades every day at
rush hour, 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Make the business world listen.
Call in sick. Slow down at work.

JCT: Bet you many people will die as they try to prevent the
army from protectin the nation from Saddam and his Saddam
lovers behind the blockades. At least, that's how the media
will protray it.

POP: Stop shopping for anything but bare necessities. Tear
off the top left corner of every dollar bill. Wear black
armbands. Tie up the phone lines, keep your computer modems
on all day. Paralyze the internet.

JCT: Anything but start your LETS timebarter club. Anything
but follow the example of the Jerusalem LETS of Aras and
Jews in forging peace through economic cooperation in a LETS
timetrading circle. Anything but the true way out. Which is
why I can safely say that the Professors for Peace are led
by Judases to the Peace movement and their urgings to
treason by obstruction are not only irresponsible, I say
they are another way of idenfifying the radicals before Bush
opens his internment camps.

POP: "A time has come when silence is betrayal. That time is
now." Martin Luther King Jr.

JCT: I'd have prefered your betrayal by silence than your
betrayal by advocating treason in war-time.

POP: Professors for Peace http://www.action-tank.org/pfp/

JCT: Professors for Peace, my ass. Bellwether's for the
bankers war is more the word.

Of course, I'm talking about the moles and CIA agents in
those movements, not the good-hearted professors being
duped, not the honest anti-bank globalisation protesters
being duped, not the honest medpotters, I'm talking about
the guys involved in suppressing the real solution to our
woes (interest-free LETS timemoney and liberty in sex,
gambling, drugs and rock&roll).

Sad to say, they have larger transmitters than I do and even
if the professors and protestors find out, they're more
likely to say, better protest to no avail, than no protest
at all.

Anyway, my advice to bloodshed-resisters in the US is to not
impede the war effort and risk charges and execution. Talk
your heads off but do not obstruct any more. It could get
you killed these days. Even talking about it might now be
enough to jeopardize the national security of the war
effort. That game is over in the nations now at war. Anyone
advocating otherwise is trying to get you into a real lot of
trouble.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>> You know, Bush and Saddam sound like promos for WWF wrestling.
>> I'd love to see them both in a ring. But the build-up is pure
>> WWR.
>> Bush: Your day is coming, Saddam. Nowhere to hide.
>> (Of course, it's not Saddam that George is going to bomb
>> but that isn't mentioned.)
>> Saddam: The Great Satan will be crushed if you come to the East.
>> etc. etc. etc.
>> Doonesbury said they reminded him of dogs fighting. But I'd bet
>> if he thought about it, WWF wrestling is the better analogy.
>> Especially when the blood turns out to be real.
>
>John,
>You are the first person besides myself that I know of who has compared this
>war on terrorism to the WWF..  our referencs are only slightly different:
>the point I have made is that Osama vs Bush is truly like a WWF match because
>I believe Osama is a part of the act, a knowing participant in a sham, just
>like Bush.  its just a big show, and it really seems like the players are
>just acting out their parts..  I also wonder whether Saddam isnt a paid
>performer.  If they don't bring his head home on a pole for all to see, i
>will be convenced he too is just an actor in a staged drama.
>JF

Hey, Saddam and Papa Bush were allies against Iran.
Who thinks it ended or who thinks it's sheepdipping.
As for the digression from money reform, it's sad tgo
say but it all comes down to financial slavery at the
base of all slavery and discusssions of the s,lavemasters
may seem offbase but they're everywhere and what you
learn about how they operate "over there" can help you
over here.

EG: Over at my medpot-discuss group, there's one fellow
who posts 90% off-cannabis but 10% of the other stuff
tgurns out to ssavable.

Please bear with me. If the global dictatorship is
taking hold, we'll lose our rights to communicate
and who'll care I tried to bring those considerations
to be added to people who have studied these here.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: After being inundated with War stories, I must comment
before the bloodshed starts on the word war. People love to
euphamize the slaughter of innocents into such a simple
word. But every time you hear some reporter crying for war,
remember he's baying for bloodshed by innocents.

Of course, once the shooting starts and someone shoots back,
then America will complete its descent into dictatorship.
I'm sure that people in the Third World living under
dictatorship supported by the American Government are going
to love the thought that the American people are finally
going to get a taste of the same kind of deadly government
forces oppressing them that the Americans have developed in
the Third World for use at home.

For example, a US activist I met at many conferences is
Carol Brouiilet. She was pro-LETS though it wasn't as much a
priority to her as it was to me. So she didn't give money
reform her best shot when she was unthreatened and now,
she's spending all her time trying to avoid the police state
they are now building for her. I wish I could chortle
"serves her right for not working for the solution to
poverty first," but it's no laughing matter because Canada
and the rest of the free world won't be far behind.

Once Bush starts the bloodletting and anyone retaliates,
then he has all he needs to call his Red Alert and call off
America's famed Bill of Rights. Is it any wonder he wants to
start the killing as fast as possible. Once it's off,
there's no stopping it.

How Bush converted from chasing Bin Laden to chasing Saddam
and threatening to kill innocent Iraqis like he's
slaughtered thousands of innocent Afghanis, (notice they're
not publishing any numbers in the US no matter how proud of
the pile of corpses they've created they are) and how no
once seems to have noticed the shift in targets is the great
story of the blinkering of the American eyes to the horrors
of their government.

Well, they're soon going to get a taste of their government
that other countries have learned to expect. A government of
murderers who have slaughtered all around the planet.

I can only say that I assume that there are animals baying
for blood in most newspapers like we have in our Ottawa
Citizen. A few years ago, Conrad Black brought on a writer,
David Warren, who is such a vicious war-monger, I haven't
been able to stomach reading any of his articles through.
This man represents Conrad's lust for blood like no one else
at the paper and he has a prime spot on the editorial page
as the Citizen tirelessly promotes war. Oops. Bloodshed.

War is too nice a word. I'm never going to use it again.
"BLOODSHED" is the real meaning of "WAR." Let's use the word
in our thoughts. Bush wants the killing to start soon. Tony
Blair, the effete British pansy, will be cheerleader
providing shame for the British citizens. Bush has gotten
the Spaniard and Portuguese presidents to opt for bloodshed.
But that's it.

My question is why no one is calling this war of aggression
a war crime pursuant to the Nuremberg laws. Bush and Blair
are plotting war of aggression on innocents. If I lived in
the States or Jean Chretien were going on along with the
plans to join in the bloodletting, I'd have the government
in court so fast their heads would spin. Is there no
guerrilla lawyer in the States who can cause the government
any judicial trouble before Bush gets more innocent blood on
his hands? Probably not, the world's toughest lives in
Canada.

Anyway, I can only suggest that we note those writers
promoting bloodshed. As far as I'm concerned, when the first
Canadian body bag comes back from Afghanistan, I'll say we
got what we deserved since Jean Chretien is the first PM
since WW2 to send Canadians soldiers to kill people in
Afghanistan than as other premiers have always sent our
soldiers to keep peace.

Do you realize the watershed step taken when Chretien
permitted Canadians to kill Afghans too? We've all read the
articles crediting Canadian soldiers with participating with
the Yankees in killing Afghans. Every time I hear of
Canadians in battle, I remember, they're there in a foreign
country killing men and women and children with Bush's
butchers and it's nothing that makes me proud.

Anyway, the onset of bloodshed should effectively end the US
democracy once and for all and if that's the only revenge
that the Third World enjoys, it's won't be enough but it
will help. I must admit despite the danger to my security, I
can't help chortling at the thought of all those American
activists who got in my way of fixing the money system that
funds war and aggression and are now, like Carol, struggling
to stop the dictatorship that is enveloping tbem. They're
going to get exactly what they deserve even if those of us
who did fight the good fight have to pay the same price with
them and the sheeple who didn't even know there was a good
fight going on.

The only thing that does cheer me up is the world-wide
public response that may have some kind of effect. But once
the blood starts to flow, then there will be no turning
back. A National Security Police State will be installed
wherever the CIA decides to lob a grenade with a "from
Saddam" card attached.

I, from now on, will not use the word "war" again.
"Bloodshed" is the goal. Bloodshed is the term that should
be used.

Here's hoping the international media is of a strength to
stop the madness but I'm not betting on it.

Oh, and by the way, if the US manages to bribe enough
nations at the UN to endorse the bloodletting, then they'll
be able to say the slaughter is acceptable. Disgusting,
isn't it?

You know, Bush and Saddam sound like promos for WWF wrestling.
I'd love to see them both in a ring. But the build-up is pure
WWR.
Bush: Your day is coming, Saddam. Nowhere to hide.
(Of course, it's not Saddam that George is going to bomb
but that isn't mentioned.)
Saddam: The Great Satan will be crushed if you come to the East.
etc. etc. etc.
Doonesbury said they reminded him of dogs fighting. But I'd bet
if he thought about it, WWF wrestling is the better analogy.
Especially when the blood turns out to be real.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:40:08 -0800
>From: megao@... (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures)
>Subject: Kidney milk
>To: canadianmedicalmarijaunaassociation@...
Uric acid is an antioxidant. I did not see that specific
info in the last post on this subject. To get max uric acid
output try consuming sardines or brewers yeast....MFJ

JCT: Uggh. Maybe if I get cancer but until the, I'll stick
with as much wonder water as I can.

>From: cp3@yahoogroups.com [CPOP]
>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:42:36 -0600
>From: "magnetic_field" <magnetic_field@...>
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Piss on Cameroon's Kidney Milk Ban

Very interesting email. I have always heard that urine is
remarked sterile. Maybe this is due to the 98.6 temperature
of the human body (on average).

JCT: I doubt 98.5 is enough to kill most microbes. Probably
that it comes from a completely sterile bloodstream.

>From: cp3@yahoogroups.com [CPOP]
>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:47:44 -0800
>From: <avoice@...>

AV: I have seen documentaries on African tribes that use Yak
urine to bathe their infants...

JCT: Funny coincidence. Pauline's mother Beryl had once told
her that as a babe in England, she had caught her mother who
was baby-sitting Pauline using her urine-only soiled diaper
to wash the babe all over. Which shocked her. But it does
prove that the knowledge existed in England in olden days
and has been erased.

AV: they have nasty flies and disease and they say this
urine bath saves their infants lives, as an
antibacterial... this tribe also eats Yak meat and milk and
butter, and they probably use it in other ways too... very
interesting....

JCT: Must explain why cow urine is so highly touted. Jesus
was said to be a master at healing with cow urine. Must have
something to do with the 4 stomach, or just wonder water
from herbivores? As a matter of fact, I recently read that
they are marketing fresh cow-urine in India and I would love
to have such marketing started in Canada. I'd have a bottle
every morning if it's better than my own.

AV: I was also told years ago by a midwife that a LEMON is
absolute birth control, and that it prevents sexually
transmitted diseases and aids... yet this whole industry
that thrives on people taking hormones and related disease
created by it, the pharmaceutical profits... think of all
the illnesses, over population, disease for the poor if they
knew a lemon would work for birth control... we need this
studied and disclosed fully...

Like cannabis, no state has any authority to tell people
what plants they can grow or how they can self medicate.

JCT: Except a slavery state system.

AV: Think of it - this is Cameroon that the article says
they are going to make it "against the law" to self medicate
with urine.... Africa was where the above story was reported
where it saves the peoples lives and has for CENTURIES...
but now the state robots come in and are going to
criminalize everybody... sounds familiar...

JCT: So they not only took away cheap herbal medicine by
banning cannabis but they're also going to try to take away
free biological medicine by banning urine drinking. Are they
going to attach pee-bags to everyone and everyone is going
to have turn in their full sacs every day before getting
another empty one? Or does the Health Minister own shares in
the pee-bag company?

AV: They intentionally keep us from knowing about these
natural remedies, and it is about time for this information
to be openly reported on... we all know now about the media
being the voice for the corporate machine.....

JCT: And if you try to deal with the "why" instead of just
the "how" of the "what" "where" and "when," you'll realize
that it always supports the trend of governments tormenting
the debt slaves to keep them too occupied with their bobos
to tackle the international bankers paying the governments
to do it to them. Jesus beat up the international bankers,
not the gamblers, hookers, dope-smokers, thieves, murderers.
The bankers who commit genocide on the poor by deprivation
of life-support tickets. Poverty by shortage of money kills.
Genovide again.

AV: Everyone sees the hypocracy now that the pharmaceutical
companies and the FDA sell poision in the corporate interest
- both the chemical poision and the "cures"..... another
FRAUD industry like all the other agencies, with only money
for a standard, not human rigths or compassion at all....

they are not there to protect anybody, only make money for
the system and control the world.

JCT: And the only way to break their control is to escape
their debt system and breaking the yoke of oppression by
joining an interest-free system and watching the chains
wither away.

AV: We have to tell them to go to hell when "they" say we
cant live our lives as we choose and harm no one.....  time
to get REAL... pamela gaston

JCT: Telling government to go to hell only gets you to go to
jail. You must tell your government what you want it to do
which is why government agents work in all such reform
organizations to make sure they don't ever ask for anything
that would actually work. Again, my experiences in the
marijuana reform movement has exposed so many narc agents in
so many different fields, it's staggering. The country's top
medpot lawyer, Alan Young, a traitor-saboteur. The country's
top cannabis magazine publisher, Marc Emery, with full
support for Young in his magazine while suppressing mention
of our victories that would help exemptees, the country
federal Marijuana Party of Canada leader, another of their
narc cabal. It's amazing. Just read the archives of my
reports at http://yahoogroups.com/group/medpot/messages

So you not only have to tell government as a group what you
want it to do but you have to beat off the plants and moles
that any good government would have inserted in every
possible opposition organisation to get out the right
message. That's why I've been so successful at gambling,
banking and cannabis reform. I have never needed the
approbation of the group to slow me down in actually working
to engineer the change. I just broke the gambling laws until
they got tired of busting me at such high court costs. I
just broke the Interest Law and repudiated my debt service
and they got tired of trying to collect at such high court
costs. And I'll break the Cannabis law until they get tired
of busting me too at such high court costs.

>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:09:01 -0500 (EST)
>From: jgail@... (redcard)
>Subject: Re: [thegreatestdebates] TURMEL: Piss on

doesnt compute for me but if you like it why not.
keeps the trees and fire hydrants or the animals. jim

>From: thegreatestdebates@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:59:16 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Bs-n-More-Bs" <cherrygod@...>
>Subject: Re: [thegreatestdebates] TURMEL: Piss on

oh that's just gross... now I'm glad I put that guy on
ignore a while back.. LOL

JCT: Okay. Stay ignorant. Please, no one tell him/her about
Kidney Milk being best and may he/she be the last to learn.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: Okay, I've never pointed out in court that I believe
I'm healthy for two reasons:
1) consuming cannabis; 2) drinking my urine.

Of the two medical marvels, I rate urine therapy superior.
And just as the slavemasters have banned cannabis so the
debt slaves don't have any cheap herbal medicine and so
continue to be beset with their drunken poverty-stricken
woes, and just as the slavemasters have dissed Vitamin B17
so the debt slaves don't have any cheap cancer cures, so
too, you would expect them to ban urine therapy it it's any
good so the debt slaves don't have any free medicine and
cancer cure!

Ottawa Citizen
March 16 2003
Cameroon bans urine drinking after best-seller touts
benefits

JCT: Ever since Conrad Black took over the Citizen years
back, they dropped the attribution of the source of the
article. So in the Citizen, you can rarely know where the
information is coming from. Reuters? AP? CNN? What? I guess
they like taking credit for having a Citizen reporter in
Cameroon. But the story in the Citizen was so short, I did a
search on the net for it and found the whole thing and found
it:

From: Habshi (habshi@...)
Subject: Naturopathy
Newsgroups: sci.med,soc.culture.indian, soc.culture.pakistan,
soc.culture.usa,
Date: 2003-03-16 03:50:12 PST

The sensible thing to do is to find out the trace elements
which might be beneficial. Maybe the Prophet was right about
the camel stuff and Muslims need to change their diet.

The Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk
Cameroon threatens to jail urine drinkers
By Jane Flanagan

JCT: Nice to know who wrote the article. It wasn't a Citizen
writer. It was a Telegraph writer. I think lack of such
attribution is bad journalism. Anyone disagree?

JF: Johannesburg - A dramatic surge in the popularity of
"urine therapy" in Cameroon has prompted the government to
ban its consumption and threaten persistent offenders with
jail. The health minister acted last week after a book about
"urinotherapy", published in Switzerland, entered the best-
seller list in Cameroon, prompting enthusiastic
experimentation by readers. One newspaper hailed
urinotherapy as a universal cure-all which could tackle
scores of afflictions, including cancer, snakebites and
infertility. Testimonials to the benefits of urine
consumption dominated radio phone-ins and the letters pages
of newspapers.

"I had haemorrhoids for five years and nothing gave me
relief. But six months ago, I started drinking half a glass
of my urine every morning and I am practically healed," a
shopkeeper from the capital Yaounde wrote to Le Messager
newspaper. A magistrate claimed: "For several years I
haven't had a hair on my head, but since I started drinking
my urine it's started growing again - it's extraordinary."

JCT: I've been drinking my urine for 5 years and it was only
when I started massaging urine directly into my scalp that I
started regrowing new hairs from the rejuvenated follicles.
What's interesting is that all the new hairs are in the
color of my youth, brown-blond, instead of the completely
white I've been for the last 10 years.

JF: Omer Otabela telephoned a radio station with the story
of his 80-year-old grandmother. "When she was bitten by a
snake in the fields, she drank her own urine. This slowed
down the progress of the venom to her heart until she got to
hospital," he declared.

JCT: When my best girl-friend Pauline Morrissette got food
poisoning after dining out with co-workers, she went home,
drank two glasses of urine and was up and about later that
evening. When she got to work the next day, the other two
co-workers were still ailing.

JF: Urinotherapy is practically as old as man himself. About
95 per cent of urine is water, 2.5 per cent is urea and 2.5
per cent is a mix of minerals, salt, hormones and enzymes.
Some practitioners believe that when rubbed on the skin or
drunk, it can purify blood and tissues, and provide
nutrients.

JCT: I wish she'd explained where where the mix of minerals,
salts, hormones, enzymes comes from! People have been
conditioned to get puked out at the thought of urine but
just like milk is a mix of minerals, salts, hormones,
enzymes, taken by the mammaries
from the blood, so too, urine is a mix of minerals, salts,
hormones, enzymes, antibiotics, disinfectants, taken by the
kidneys from the blood. The amneotic fluid we're all created
in is basically the same wonderful stuff.

What's incredible and makes one believe in wise God is that
this is Kidney milk, taken directly from the bloodstream!
And the kidneys don't grab the shit going by the recycle out
the front end, they only grab the best medicinal components
going by that were just recently produced by your own bone
marrow to respond to whatever particular disease is ailing
you at the time. I've you've got a cold sore, the kidney
isn't going to grabbing the medications out of the blood to
help hemmorhoids. Kidney Milk is tailor-made medicine of
exactly the right medications you need for what's ailing you
now. What incredible "sustainable bio-engineering."

JF: DHEA, a hormone found in large quantities in urine, is
also believed to have anti-ageing, anti-cancer and anti-
obesity properties.

JCT: Boy can I vouch the the anti-ageing and anti-obesity
properties. Within 3 months of my starting to drink my own
vitamin-laden kidney milk, my hunger was greatly reduced and
I dropped 35 pounds in 3 months without even trying. This
included a 3-week binge at the Taj Mahal with free
banquetting every night which would usually fatten me up by
about 10 pounds but this time didn't add a pound though it
did halt my drop for those three weeks. But having a super-
power-packed dose of nutrients that are already tailor-made
for the physiological problems cuts the body's demand for
them and cuts the hunger pangs during weight loss as well.

JF: The Chinese have treated themselves with urine both
externally and internally for centuries; a more recent
advocate, the British actress Sarah Miles swears by its
health-enhancing properties.

JCT: Coming right out of the tap, kidney milk is odorless
and often tasteless. But its medicinal components soon start
converting into ammonia compounds which have an incredible
cleansing and rejuvenating effect on the outside skin.
Pauline's often prone to doing rash moves but a few years
ago, she had some sort of gum disease and the dentist was
suggesting removing all her teeth. She grabbed some 30-day
stuff and swished away, eventually burning off the skin in
her mouth, silly girl, but she saved her teeth.

My most notable Urine Miracle was curing an infected nerve
that two dentists had said needed a root canal operation for
which there was no cure. After 3 weeks of 2 Tylenols every
12 hours for 3 weeks and with the operation only 4 days
away, I started swishing for two straight days while I
worked at my computer and by the end of the second day,
urine's medications passed through gums to disinfect the
nerve and I didn't need the Tylenols anymore. My impossible-
to-cure root-canal nerve infection has been cured for the
past 4 years though I still make sure to floss and swish to
keep it clean.

I vouch for other curings of cuts, scrapes, but the very
best effect over all these years is that urine contains a
"base" or "anti-acid" that neutralises acid indigestion. I
used to go through a pack a Rolaids a week, year after year,
and drinking my own urine has eliminated any but the rarest
need. If I feel such acid indigestion coming on, a quick
glass of kidney joy juice and the heat is gone. Only if it
persists do I ever need to rely on Rolaids. Down from 100
packs a year to a couple!

JF: During the First World War, doctors dosed patients with
urine to ward off gangrene.

JCT: My mother has been on disability suffering Raynaud's
disease for 30 years. It's a problem with circulation to
the extremities and ends up with the extremities getting
gangrene and having to be cut away. But going to warmer
climes, avoiding stress, etc, has lengthened an original
prognosis of "death by 1976" to "still alive today." But in
October of 2002, mom was diagnosed with cancer and was going
to have to stay in Canada to have 33 daily radiation
treatments so inevitably, the cold got to her extremities
and her feet and toes erupted in huge boils and it was
turning black between the toes. The expected gangrene? I was
shocked. So I insisted she bathe her foot in her oldest
urine and within a week, the boils and gangrene were gone
with only one sore left on a toe to drain the pus. Within a
month, the skin was baby-pink and there was nothing but a
little scar on the toe. And she was able to walk to her
radiation treatments instead of me having to carry her
around with amputated feet. Another Kidney Milk miracle that
can be attested to by the Turmel family.

JF: Morarji Desai, the Indian prime minister from 1977 to
1979 who lived to the age of 99, drank a pint of his own
urine every day.

JCT: What a great man. I heard about urine therapy first
from him in the newspaper articles laughing at the old guy
in India who told the world he drank a glass of his own
urine every day. Took guts to stand up to an ignorant world
and tell the the truth. It's the reason I included a
cryptic reference to him in my LETS poem to the Queen.
From http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pomlizas.htm

Dec. 11, 1996
            LOYAL ENGINEER'S 1997 PETITION OF RIGHT TO
                  HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

The day I got my 1997 Guinness Book,
Of Worldly Records, for my name, Turmel, I had to look.
I noted on same page, Elizabeth, Your Majesty,
Holds record among ruling Queens for Your longevity.
Perhaps P.M. of India, Morarji "wise" Desai,
Who holds a record on next page for age at work most high,
Imparted to Your Majesty the secret of his youth,
A secret I have verified as nature's greatest truth.

JCT: So now you know what I was talking about. Maybe the
people who are living the longest are doing so because we
have the knowledge of the Healer From Within that we're too
prudish to bring up in discussion. Fortunately, I'm brutish
and all my friends find out real quick how to get strong
too. And I berate the slower ones who are too scared to
taste their own kidney milk. They always thought it had been
mixed in with the caca.

And Morarji Desai also made the Guinness Book in the same
Royalty and Government page as me and the Queen for his
attaining leadership at the most advanced age, her for being
Queen the longest, and me for contesting the most elections.

JF: No independent research has been carried out into urine
drinking.

JCT: No independent research has been carried out into
cannabis consumption either. Is that because they're both no
good or because someone hid both good stuffs from the
slaves?

JF: But kidney specialists warn that consuming large volumes
may cause a build-up of toxic waste similar to that seen in
patients who suffer kidney failure.

JCT: And we've been warned that consuming large volumes of
cannabis "may cause athlete's foot" because the specialists
can't say that consuming cannabis "does not cause athlete's
foot." The use of the word "may" implies odds,
probabilities, statistics that many people believe are used
to lie with. To people not versed in odds, that is. I've
never heard of anyone ever suffering from consumption of
their own kidney milk no matter if we can't prove that
drinking urine does NOT cause athlete's foot.

JF: "Given the risks of toxicity associated with ingesting
urine," wrote Urbain Olanguena Awono, Cameroon's health
minister, "the health ministry advises against the
consumption of urine and invites those who promote the
practice to cease doing so or risk prosecution."

JCT: Imagine, Cameroon's Minister of Health is a medical
imbecile. He has not checked to find out that urine coming
out of the tap is a "sterile" "antibiotic" "disinfectant."
But then again, I'd bet the Cameroon Health Minister is not
a medical doctor and may plead the same incompetence that is
being pleaded by Canada's Health Ministers, Allan Rock,
former shyster for the pharmaceutical companies, and Anne
McLellan who I doubt holds any medical credentials either.

JF: Last night The Sunday Telegraph contacted Dr Christian
Tal Schaller, whose book, Amaroli 2, started the health
craze in Cameroon, to inform him of the ban. "What a crazy
thing to do," Dr Schaller said from his home in France. "I
have had hundreds of letters from followers in Cameroon
whose lives have been changed by urine therapy. I will
contact the government to explain what this therapy can do."
24 February 2003[Health]: A wee drop of amber nectar

JCT: Keep us informed. But I've added another program to my
Abolitionist Party Platform to the good ones like abolition
of prohibition on gambling, sex, marihuana, and now,
abolition of prohibition on urine therapy.
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/abprogs.htm

What originally got my attention was 1996 article about the
first "Urine Therapy Conference" in India where they were
touting a 73% cancer cure rate. That's when I started to
take it seriously and did some research. I leave you with a
few more choice words on the subject but I'm a believer.

Getting http://netmar.com/users/ovigher/story92.htm
Freshly squeezed urine good for you.
Source: Reuter
      GOA, India, -- More than 600 scientists, representing
17 nations, gathered for the first World Conference on Auto-
Urine Therapy held in western India.
      They presented research evidence that human urine can
have healing powers and be very efficient against cancer,
hepatitis B, influenza, diabetis, and even AIDS.
      "Yes, urine can cure cancer," vice general manager of
the Long Life Biomedical Co Ltd Dr. Ming Chen Liau said.
      Many of the atendees to the conference drink their own
urine, and use it for body massages. Dr. Shigeyuri Arai of
Japan, has studied 1,752 people who practiced urine therapy.
60 percent of his patients reported that their symptoms have
disappeared, and as much as 73 percent in the case of cancer
patients. "Many patients on auto-urine therapy recovered
from serious illness," he said.
      Dr. Ryoichi Nakao, chairman of Japan's Miracle Cup of
Life Institute, said about 200,000 Japanese and as much as 5
million Germans gargled their own urine.
      Several doctors claimed that urine therapy can ease the
painful symptoms associated with AIDS.
      Some doctors remain skeptical of the therapy, however,
they all agree more research has to be done.

"Urine Therapy Devotees Flock to India"
Reuters (02/23/96);  Graves, Nelson
      Hundreds of doctors and scientists from 17 countries
are attending the first World Conference on Auto-Urine
Therapy, a controversial treatment for many diseases
including AIDS. The three-day meeting, being held in the
western Indian state of Goa, brings together proponents of
the 5,000-year-old therapy, which involves drinking one's
own urine.  Former Indian Prime Minister Moraji Desai, who
died at 99 last year, surprised the world when he revealed
that he drank his own urine every day.  Some doctors say
urine contains hormones, enzymes, vitamins, and minerals
that can cure diseases, and lessen AIDS patients' symptoms.
But many mainstream doctors say that while small doses of
urine are not        harmful, they offer no therapeutic
benefit.

Getting http://www.transort.com/~kids/bcr.html
BETTER CHOICES RESEARCH
Truth though the heavens fall - Herbert Shelton
Auto-Urine Therapy
Briton J.W. Armstrong, Dr. G.K. Thakkar, Dr. Ming Chen Liau,
Dr. Shigeyuri Arai, Morarji Desai, Dr. Ryoichi Nakao
Chinese Scientist Backs Urine Cancer Cure Claim
      "Dr. Ming Chen Liau, presented his research findings
at... the first World Conference on Auto-urine Therapy in
[Panjim, Goa]. Ming said the chemical protein
antineoplaston, found in human urine, inhibits the growth of
malignant cancer cells.
      The scientist said his research showed in 47 percent of
cases antineoplaston arrested cancer, while there was a
partial response in 13 percent.
      Dr. Shigeyuri Arai... studied 1,752 people who
practised urine therapy and suffered ailments ranging from
diabetes to cancer. He found that 60 percent of the patients
said their symptoms had disappeared following the treatment.
The share rose to 73 percent in the case of cancer patients.
By Nelson Graves, Reuters. Reported in India-West, March 8,
1996
========

JCT: Finally, a few more choice words to fill up my usual
30k limit:

SILVERCORD Est.since
Urine - The Holy Water by Harald W. Tietze
      Forgetting the slang, urine has been called many things
including, 'Holy Water', 'The Nectar Medicine', 'A Very
Special Juice', 'Your own Perfect Medicine', 'and The Golden
Fountain'; largely given these rather tall titles because of
its unsurpassed healing powers. In fact, author Harald W.
Tietze tells us, you will not find a more customised
medicine and universal cure than your own urine.
      And Tietze is not alone with his theory; together with
600 scientists, doctors and therapists he attended a world
conference on 'Auto-Urine Therapy', in February, at
Panjim,(capital of Goa) India. Add these to the estimated 5
million plus Germans practising it daily, the ground-swell
of Europeans who are readily joining the throngs, and Asians
whose urine is being collected and processed by
pharmaceutical companies to create Urea in skin cream and
other by-products for modern drugs, and you begin to take
notice and start to contemplate the benefits.
      With minerals, amino acids, enzymes, hormones and more
customised antidotes which are up-to-date with our bodies
immediate needs, urine is equivalent (and better than )2,500
pharmacological ingredients contained in disease fighting
drugs. The only thing wrong with urine is that it is
available to every body on this planet and it is free. How
distasteful?
      In Urine the Holy Water Tietze traces back the history
of urine therapy through the Bible, Indian, Chinese,
Russian, Eskimo, Celtic, Egyptian, Hungarian, Aborigine and
Maori cultures, and as a ready-made medicine during the
world wars.
      He further goes on to dispel the fear we have in
accessing what will save our lives and create longevity by
explaining what urine really is, and not what we have
wrongly imagined it to be; some putrid body by-product.
      Although, in the minds-eye we do not replace this with
an image of some palatable and refreshing drink that whets
the appetite, his convincing argument that urine is a
sterile cleanser and healer does make you ponder if it is
any different to eating eggs from the hen, milk from the cow
(our own breast milk is made from the same stuff as urine,
only its mostly white) or the gelatin from cows hooves.
      As well as drinking, other internal uses for urine
outlined in this book include drops under the tongue,
douching, enemas, gargling, homoeopathic preparations,
injections, sniffing and rinsing. External applications
include baths, hipbath, footbath, steam bath, eye bath, eye
drops, massage, scalp/hair massage, herbal tea blends and
compresses.
      Outlined in the text are treatments for acne, ageing,
Aids, allergies, Anaemia, Appendicitis, Arteriosclerosis,
Arthritis, Asthma, backache, bladder infections, blood
pressure, blood clot, boils, bowel problems, Bronchitis,
Bulimia, burns, Candidiasis, cataracts, Chilblains, Chronic
Fatigue Syndrome, colds and flu, Colic, Conjunctivitis,
Constipation, cramps, cysts, Dandruff, deafness, dental
problems, depression, Dermatitis, Diabetes, digestive
problems, Dropsy, Eczema, Epilepsy, Glaucoma, fever, Gall
Bladder, Gonorrhoea, Gout, Haemorrhoids, hair loss, Hay
Fever, headache, Hepatitis, Herpes, Malaria, Measles,
menstruation/menopause, obesity, prostate, sexual potency,
Sinusitis, stress, T.B., warts, varicose veins and more.
Most importantly there are documented accounts of how
Australians have conquered their own cancers with Auto-Urine
Therapy, so its benefits should not be ignored.
      In fact, the author says, "Dont read this book if you
feel well and if you are slim with beautiful skin and if you
have no allergies, no depression, no asthma, no psoriasis
and if you never will get bitten by a poisonous snake or
spider".
      In earnest I search for my feelings on the topic with,
Its on-tap, perhaps we cannot ignore this most ancient and
universal healer. Beginning with external uses we can all
easily experiment...but no piddling in my pool - Ill take
care of that.
========

Getting http://www3.pair.com/jgurney/one/a/urine-
therapy.html
My Urine Therapy Home Page
Hello to everyone interested in urine therapy and other
alternative healing methods!
This is the homepage of Coen van der Kroon
This is also the urine therapy homepage
Under Construction
* URINE THERAPY
* AYURVEDA
* HEALTH
* ANCIENT GREEK MEDICINE
Who is Coen van der Kroon?
      I am a urine therapy and health consultant, living in
Amsterdam and author of a best selling book on urine
therapy. I am studying Ayurveda and other health promoting
systems. I am presently writing a second book on urine
therapy. My aim is to promote holistic health systems,
working with body, emotions, mind and spirit. Im my work
down-to-earth spirituality is a very important aspect. I am
a Libra with Leo ascendant.
My e-mail address is:  cvdk@...
NEW!
Read the following article:
[1]"Urine Therapy: The Simple Use Of Your Own Water Of Life"
[2]Urine Therapy
(Urin-Therapie, urinetherapie, orinoterapia)
Also called:
Amaroli
Shivambu Kalpa
The Water of Life
What is urine therapy? How does it work?
      Urine therapy means using (your own) urine externally
or internally as a way to promote or maintain your health.
The first question that probably comes to mind is whether
urine is not a toxic substance and how a toxic waste product
could ever be of any benefit for your health. Well, urine is
NOT a toxic waste product and this has been scientifically
proven. 95% of urine is water, 2.5% consists of urea and the
remaining 2.5% is a mixture of minerals, salt, hormones and
enzymes. Toxic substances are being removed from the body
through the liver and intestines, through the skin and
through the outbreath. The main function of the kidneys is
to keep the composition of the blood in optimal balance.
When there is to much water, the kidneys will remove it. But
that doesn't make water into a toxic waste product. Only the
substance urea can be poisonous when present in very large
amounts in the blood. However, this is irrelevant in the
practice of drinking urine, as urine is not immediately put
back in the bloodstream. In the small amounts urea gets back
into the body, it is purifying, clears up excess mucus and
has a number of specific, very useful effects. Moreover, it
has a wonderful healing and tonifying effect when applied to
the skin. You can find urea in many skin products as one of
the main components.
      Furthermore, urine is entirely sterile after secretion
and has an antiseptic effect. We are talking here about
urine from the point of view of somebody who follows a
reasonably healthy diet, and who does not use chemical drugs
or allopathic medicines. Urine therapy is a method based
upon the principle of 'natural cycles'. As long as we do not
interfere chemically with the body's natural cycle, the body
produces urine which is perfectly suitable for recycling. If
you ingest a great deal of chemical substances  and these
days all kinds of processed food contain chemicals  part of
this will end up in the urine, in which case the composition
of the urine changes. Normally, however, urine is a healthy
substance which contains healthy, harmless and nourishing
components. Some natural cycles take place more quickly than
others, but the cycle in general is the foundation of all
life. If we let nature run her course, there will be no
waste, and a disturbed equilibrium will always come back
into balance. Just as we are capable of disturbing a natural
equilibrium, we can also do our part in helping nature
recover her balance. In order to support such a recovering
of balance, we are equipped with a wonderful, natural 'house
pharmacy': our own urine provides us with a swift and safe
method for using the powers of the natural cycle. What
exactly are the effects of urine therapy?
      Briefly, if urine is ingested and/or rubbed into the
skin, it purifies blood and tissues, provides useful
nutrients and sends the body a signal about what is in or
out of balance. This last effect is called (oral) auto-
immunization. This brings us at a last important feature of
urine. Urine itself is, as said, not a toxic waste product.
It does contain however minute particles connected with
possible disease processes in the body. These minute
particles are mainly antibodies, which upon re-ingesting can
help the body to react on specific pathological situations.
Urine therapy has proven helpful in a great number of
various diseases, ranging from a simple cold and a
throatache, to tuberculosis and asthma, from minor skin
problems such as itching, to more serious skin diseases such
as eczema, psoriasis and even skin cancer.
More information on urine therapy in my book:
The Golden Fountain; The Complete Guide to Urine Therapy
INFORMATION ABOUT MY BOOK
In English:
The Golden Fountain; The Complete Guide To Urine Therapy
by Coen van der Kroon
Amethyst Books/Gateway Books
ISBN 0-944256-73-2

JCT: Incredible, isn't it. God provided a feedback to
recycle the best medicines our body can produce and our
rulers managed to hide from us knowledge that is millennia
old. It certainly seems another great indication of the
slavery control system used to oppress us.

But now the secret's out and soon, the Third World won't be
needing any pharmaceuticals, like we don't in my circles.

Wise up. Have a taste of Kidney Milk and then say a prayer
of grace to God for his wonderful engineering gift.

--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

1) Bernard Lietaer: WIR and INTEREST & more ???
2) Kathryn G: Auctioning going on in Oz-land
3) Paul Hesling: Question about LETS limits (francais)
4) [TimeBanksUK] An interesting web-site

1) WIR and INTEREST & more ???
------------------------------

JCT: Thanks Bernard for reminding me of Leonardo's message.
Sad to say about WIR but I didn't know:
>Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:52:07 +0100
>From: blietaer@... (bernard lietaer)
>Subject: Re: [ijccr] WIR and INTEREST & more ???
>To: dlwild@... Cc: ijccr@yahoogroups.com

BL: Dear Leonardo, You are right, they have started charging
interest a decade or so ago, much against the original
founder's explicit intent and policies.

JCT: Bad news. Introducing positive feedback in an control
system is called an "instability" so someone worked to
install an instability into the WIR system. Considering my
recent experiences with finding government moles in the
marijuana movement and finding banker moles in the anti-bank
protest movement (eg: 50 Years is Enough who suppressed
every mention of LETS as a solution to bank-generated
poverty). So it makes sense that if there were a large
interest-free model out there, the enslavers-that-be would
want to see it screwed-up.
I used to love referring to the WIR, for a while, the
world'd biggest interest-free system but that honor has been
Argentina's for the past couple of years.

BL: WIR isn't an ideal model in several respects, including
the interest issue. Another problem: it is in fact a
centrally controlled fiat currency. Its main claim to fame
is that it is the most mature of all  complementary systems
(more than 65 years), and by far the largest in terms of
number of participants and volume.

JCT: Not much of a claim to fame if they've just thrown an
instability into their accounting.

BL: In short, WIR has demonstrated that complementary
currencies can scale up if they are left to mature. But I
can't recommend it as a complementary currency design...
Best, Bernard

JCT: If chartered banks can issue valuable federal currency
based on people's collateral for interest, so too can
private WIR banks issue valuable presonal currency based on
people's collateral for interest too. The same debt slavery
will result and they'll end up spending more of their money
in legal collection proceedings than in trading.

LW>I went into www.wir.ch and saw that they charge interest
>(and pay interest) at the WIR Bank. It is also listed in
>your World LETS as ****:

>?SWITZERLAND [CH] (8)
>LETS Austria-Germany-Switzerland
http://www.talent.ch/adr/lets.htm
>Aarau E: renato@...
>Lausanne E zoutaboubi@...   T:41216165615
T:41216536372
>Luzerner Tauschnetz  http://www.tauschnetz.xodox.ch E:
tauschnetz@...
>TALENT-Experiment in der Schweiz http://www.talent.ch E:
incontact@...
>Winterthur
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4331/Va_Indx.html E:
>AndreasSommer@... E: richard.zuesli@...
>
>****WIR (83,000 members) http://www.wir.ch
>
>Zurich http://members.xoom.com/talent_zh/ E:
murmel@...
>Zurich: http://www.talent.ch/adr/letslist.htm

JCT: Right you are. They're just another usury charge bank
like any other federally-chartered model. With one possible
difference.

Do members have the right to create the money they'll need
to pay their interest? Then it becomes service charge. It's
only if the central authority retains the right to create
money that the mortgage deathgamble develops. And regardless
of what people think monetary reform involves, it boils down
to getting rid of the deathgamble between human borrowers.

>Does this mean that you consider it a LETS even though they
engage in
>the usury game? Or is there a catch of which I'm not aware
of in their
>case (like no Fractional Reserve Banking thus no Shift-B or
something
>along those lines?)

JCT: No, there's no catch. I wasn't aware until you made the
point and Bernard confirmed it. They are not a good model
because they are not a barter echanism. Their tokens will
inflate while a barter 1Hour bill never will. And I have
removed them from my world LETS list at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/urlsnat.htm

LW>Also, as part of another search I'm doing, your list of
LETS doesn't
>differentiate between LETS as thought out by Michael
Linton, the printed
>moneys of Argentina (of which I heard that there are about
twenty
>different currencies being issued), and other types of
(alternative,
>community, complementary) acc currencies.

JCT: It all depends on the currency system's Laplace
Transformation. As long it is 1/s, I don't care what other
people say it does nor how other people mis-operate their
tokens. I've published that casinos operate the perfect
model and any questions I can't answer can be answered at
your local club's token cashier. But if a token is worth
something and doesn't change, it is called an "integrator."
It integrates all inputs to your account and tells you what
they add up to. Isn't that what bank accounts do? Integrate
all the ins and outs, the positives and the negatives, into
one balance? That's why a system with Laplace Transform 1/s
is call the "integrator." The perfectly fair linear
accounting system LETS equation.

As long as no one gets something for nothing and no one gets
nothing for something, the 1/s integrator is an honest
scoring mechanism. Now hook up some positive feedback and
watch the inequity grow into the Hell on Earth we're
witnessing. But keep the positive feedback out of the system
and "money equals debt" means Heaven on Earth.

That's what  Christ's Parable of Talents was all about. He
said "the Kingdom of Heaven is like.." and he described a
world where the ruler is a loanshark. And Heaven is simply
the same Hellish place we're now in but with the
loansharking abolished.

LW> Since my intention is to make
>a listing by type and use, taking into consideration the
way each type
>of acc is being emitted (form of presentation), what its
functions are,
>and how do they go about the social agreement (central
issue, individual
>issue, limited edition, etc.), and since you've gone
through all the
>trouble of making your world listing of LETS (regardless of
type), I was
>wondering whether you had, somewhere on file, this info
already (or if
>anyone on IJCCR has it), so I don't engage in a search that
has already
>been carried out.

JCT: Any one person who can find me a room in their town can
be a 1-account LETS from that area in the omni-account
UNILETS world-wide system. I met one fellow from India who
agreed to provide accommodations and voila, a LETS
connection in that town whether it's 1000 members, 100
members, 10 or 1. So as long as they have a clue what time-
trading is all about, they're a good lead and I'll put them
on my list. Should you then want to visit their area, it's
then up to you to use that initial lead to find what you
want.

>In other words, does anyone have a listing of the various
types of acc
>currencies using the above-mentioned criteria? I know that
Thomas Greco
>in his book MONEY has a separation of cc by type (and I
think, form of
>issuance). Is there something _more_ that I could acquire?
>All the best,
>Leonardo Wild
>PS: Is there also any detailed info on the talent?

JCT: As long as your token is worth something that won't
change, then I don't care what you call your system, what
you base your tokens on, Hours, Wheat, Oil, etc., only that
the equation of your currency system 1/s guarantees that
each token remains backed up by what is pledged on the
warehouse receipt.
======

2) Kathryn G: Auctioning going on in Oz-land
--------------------------------------------

JCT: I think auctions are something that haven't been used
enough to promote LETS and I'm glad to see our enterprising
Aussie lass always on the go:

>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:24:13 +1000
>From: wow@... (Kathryn)
>Subject: [Logan-LETS]

Roll up! Roll up! Roll up!!!!
This is usually a popular event!. Bring your cheque books &
ID card! Earn Shells now & save for auction style bidding on
items at 100% Shells. Only current financial participants
may bid.

LETS Auction will be held on 13th April from 10.30 am
(I suggest you arrive 15 minutes earlier to get a good
seat.) at the Sunshine Coast Hand Craft Market "Gallery"
Seminar Room,110 Sugar Rd Mrchydore

Don't have a car, book a LETS driver, or ring another member
nearby & ask them if they are going & ask for a lift.

Auction starts: Small items10.30 am;=20
Lunch 12.30; BYO: plate food for share lunch;

Large Items auctioned after lunch
(I heard they have a refrigerator already & 2 ladies
bicycles, possibly a massage chair... its early days yet
sure to be more)

Come along! Party! Socialize! Network! Trade!  (Wear a name
tag with your name & Beaches LETS & ID) Meet Nambour &
possibly Maleny LETS members, maybe others)

Entry fee: free to donators of auction sale items: eg:
skills/services vouchers, plants, garage sale goods, arts &
crafts, toys, games, stationery, linen, white goods,
electrical items,  music, tapes, CDs, crockery, cutlery,
etc; 5 Shells fee for non-donators.

If you have items to donate
(Please attach a note to it with your name on it so you are
not charged entry fee on the day)
1. small items: leave at the Nambour LETS offfice only;
2. Large items dropoff  to Rays place 61 Urbachers Rd
Nambour, ring first 5476 2087=20 or ring Alen only if you
have no other way to get the items to them.=20
3. Please do not bring donation items on the day. Everything
will be catalogued in the three days before the auction.
Phone Alen 54417988 (w) 54416886 (h)
All proceeds go to the Nambour LETS office admin a/c.
Kathryn G wow@...
Beaches LETS ID #0050 Buderim 5445 2043 Bhrs
======

3) Paul Hesling: Question about LETS limits
--------------------------------------------

>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:19:26 -0000
>From: paulhesling@... ("Paul Hesling")
>Subject: A question about Lets
>To: turmel@...

PH: A potential problem with mutual credit is that
unscrupulous individuals could receive several goods and
services from others, run up excessive negative balances and
then disappear.

PH: Un probleme potentiel du credit mutuel est que des gens
pas scrupuleux peuvent obtenir des biens et services des
autres, depenser une balance negative excessive et s'enfuir.

JCT: Do we not use the system that could save us because
such lazy people might get a free ride or do we use it and
hope they're not too much of a drain to prevent us from
making it?

JCT: Est-ce qu'on decide de ne pas utiliser le systeme qui
pourrait nous sauver pour eviter que de tels gens laches
peuvent vivre gratis ou bien est-ce qu'on utilise le systeme
et qu'on espere qu'ils ne soient pas trop lourd pour nous
arreter de nous sauver.

PH: I am aware that Lets is supposed to be a transparent
system in that each person could (does?) review the account
history of another person to establish whether that person
was contributing or simply consuming. However, I would like
to know what steps (if any) can or are taken to limit,
reduce or remove this type of behaviour.

PH: Je sais qu'un SEL doit etre un systeme transparent etant
donne que chaque membre peut voir le compte d'une autre
personne pour etablir si cette person contribue ou si elle
prend tout le temps. Mais, he veux savoir qu'elles mesures
(si possibles) peuvent reduire ou eliminer ce mode d'agir.

JCT: No more is needed than public scrutiny. Who wants to be
known as the loser in the crowd?

JCT: Pas besoin plus que l'examination publique. Qui veut
etre reconnu le perdant dans la foule?

PH: It seems to me that if one or more people were able to
abuse the system by plundering it, then this will reduce
confidence in the system as a whole and reduce the growth
rate. In addition, if an online, global mutual credit system
were developed, how would the system ensure that
unscrupulous individuals could not run up a negative balance
with one account, then once that account was frozen set up
another and so on. An online mutual credit system could
easily be developed which could be used by anyone on the
planet, and I would have thought that there would be a great
value in that. But if the system can be abused then it will
be. Do you have any suggestions about how an online system
should be designed so that this type of abuse cannot take
place? I look forward to your response. Also, many thanks
for your website. I have found it very helpful. Regards Paul
Hesling

PH: On dirait que si une ou plus de personnes pourraient
voler du systeme, ca reduirait la confiance dans le systeme
et reduira l'accroissement. Et aussi, is en systeme de
credits mutuelles global serait develope, comment pourrait
le system assurer que les individus non-scrupuleux ne
puissent accumuler une balance negative dans un compte, et
lorsque ce compte est arrete, en commencer un autre compte,
et un autre. Un reseau de credit mutuel en ligne pourrait
facilement etre installe pour n'importe qui sur la planete,
et je pense qu'il y aurait beaucoup de bon dans ca. Mais is
le system peut etre abuse, ca le sera. Avez vous des
suggestions qui pourraient prevenir de tels abus dans un
systeme en ligne. Et merci pour votre site web. Je l'ai
trouve tres utile. Paul Hesling.

JCT: Such abuse cannot take place when there is only one big
UNILETS system and nowhere to hide.

JCT: Un tel abus ne peut pas s'occasioner lorsqu'il n'y a
qu'un grand reseau UNISEL et nulle place pour se cacher.

>Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
>From: pabloh123@... (pabloh)
>Subject: Four questions about Lets
>To: bc726@...

PH: Mr Turmel - I've been receiving your emails (from the
[letssc] group) for some while now. I have four questions
for you about lets that I would appreciate your answers to.

PH: M. Turmel, je recois vois couriels du groupe [letssc]
pour quelque temps. J'ai quattre questions a vous poser a
propos des SELs que j'aimerais connaitre les reponses.

PH: Question 1:
With a mutual credit system, how do you define the amount by
which an account within the system can go into minus
figures?
Avec un systeme de credit mutuel, comment definissons le
montant par lequel un compte peut aller dans le negatif?

JCT: What's the limit we should put on the account of an
infant needing many surgeries while there are lots of
doctors ready to care for him?

JCT: C'est quoi la limite qu'on devrait mettre sur le compte
d'un enfant qui a besoin de maintes chirurgies lorsqu'il y a
beaucoup de docteurs prets a lui soigner?

PH: Question 2:
Is there a mechanism in Lets to stop unscrupulous account
holders from simply running up a negative balance and then
leaving the system without contributing anything to it?
Y-a-t'il un mechanism pour arreter des membres de prendre et
de prendre et s'evader sans le retourner?

JCT: The only eventual mechanism that prevents such abuse is
the inevitable merging of all small LETS into one big
UNILETS. When Mr. Skip opens his UNILETS account, all small
LETS debts will find their way there.

JCT: Le seul mechanism pour prevenir de tel abus est le
melange inevitable de tous le petits SELs dans un grand
UNISEL. Quand M. L'Evadeur s'ouvre son compte UNISEL, toutes
ses petites dettes des petites SELs se trouveront la
eventuellement.

PH: Question 3:
What is the most effective way of introducing Lets into the
business community so that a wider range of goods and
services can be exchanged via the Lets system?
C'est quoi la meilleur maniere d'introduire le SEL dans la
communaute commerciale pourqu'il y ait un plus grand choix
de biens et services qui s'echangent via le systeme SEL?

JCT: Use colored paper notes denominated in both time and
the national currency, (eg: 1 Hour = $10US Dollars) so they
treat it like all the other paper in their till. And try to
get government, the power company, the bus company, the
telephone company, or the village General store to join,
even run it.

JCT: Utilisez des billets colores en papier denomines en
temps et aussi en argent national (eg: 1 Heure = $10US
dollars) pourqu'ils puissent les mettre comme tout les
autres morceaux de papier dans leurs caisses. Et essayer
d'enregistrer le gouvernement local, la compagnie de pouvoir
electrique, d'autobus, de telephone, ou meme le magazin
general du village qui pourrait meme le gerer.

PH: Question 4:
The idea of a demurrage charge (ie 1% per month) being
levied on Lets balances strikes me as an effective way to
increase the number and volume of exchanges within the
system. This has been suggested by Bernard Lietaer in his
book "The Future of Money" (he calls it ROCS). What is your
view about this and do you feel that levying the demurage
fee on both positive and negative balances has merit?

L'idee d'un frais de demurrage (eg: 1% par mois) etant
demande sur des balances SELs on l'air d'etre une maniere
effective a promouvoir le nombre de transactions et le
volume d'echanges dans le systeme. Ceci a ete suggere par
Bernard Lietaer dans son livre "Le futur de l'argent" (il
l'appele des ROCS). Que pensez-vous de cela et pensez-vous
que un frais de demurrage sur les balances positives et
negatives a de l'allure?

JCT: If you needed to stimulate transactions artificially
because of malfunctions somewhere in your system, sure,
demurrage work and only the savers got punished by having
their savings slowly disappear. With a well-functioning
system, there's no reason to punish savers nor promote
transactions. I'd like to pay for our banking system out of
taxation like a public non-profit utility.
Paul Hesling pabloh123@...

JCT: Si vous voulez stimuler les transactions
artificiellement a cause d'autres malfonctionnements, oui,
un frais de demurrage pourrait marcher et seulement les
epargneurs seraient punis en voyant leurs epargnes lentement
disparraitre. Avec un system qui fonctionne bien, il n'y a
pas de raison a punir les epargneurs ni promouvoir les
transactions. Je preconise payer pour notre system bancaire
avec un tax comme une utilite publique.
Paul Hesling pabloh123@...
=======

4) [TimeBanksUK] An interesting web-site
----------------------------------------

>Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 12:02:06 -0500 (EST)
>From: tbnk100@...
>Subject: Re: [TimeBanksUK] An interesting web-site
Hi Colin, People generally associate 'barter' with LETS --
that frightfully commercial system :-) with which TBUK
cannot bring itself to collaborate with despite Edgar's:

"I have suggested to LETS proponents that we work together
to encourage the development of dual pricing so that
producers and consumers could elect, for any transaction,
which currency they chose to use. But the more fundamental
point is clear: we will either be pitted against each other
as competitors or we will collaborate to find ways to build
community"
Edgar Cahn, President, Time Dollar Institute, Dec. 2000
Regards to TB, North & South
david g.

JCT: The only thing standing in the way of the compatibility
of LETS and Timedollars is tokens preventing the Timedollar
people from dictating the free-market's valuation of
people's time. Once Timedollars use tokens, they'll be
accepted by LETSers as readily as they are by everyone else
in the community.

Witness Ithaca Hours where people in other communities
accept Ithaca Hours simple because someone in their
community will honor it before going to Ithaca.

As long as Timedollars suffers at 1-velocity while tokens
speed along at 50 trades, 100 trades per accounting
transaction, it will be expensive and less optimal. With
fixed rates, it cannot benefit from the options available
through a fair market. But it will fly once they ditch their
central control and leave the time-market to itself. And
then, they'll be just like a LETS but with their numeraire,
the basis of the currency, time, being the ideal.

I can only say Ithaca Hours has proven to be the ideal
community operating system but for the fact that they only
issue 4 one-hour time tokens to each member, like everyone
starting out with $40. I guess they didn't expect to exert
much of an impact but they're starting to realize the
advantages of issuing community currency loans to charities
and I hope, government.

>Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 18:21 +0000
>From: venture.radical@... (Martin)
>Subject: Re: Re: [TimeBanksUK] An interesting web-site

M: Hi David,
I would be really intereted to learn why you believe that
TBUK is not happy to collaborate with LETS. I have always
seen LETS people as our natural allies. They were here long
before community time banks and have a lot to teach us.

JCT: A lot of failures for you to avoid. But the successes
have been pretty spectacular. Why do Canadian, American and
British farmers to convert their crops via financial
middlemen to get the money to buy their tractors when
Argentinian farmers have won the right to to pay with their
crops avoiding financial middlemen to buy their tractors and
getting a lot more for their money. Search for the Reuters /
Argentina article at any of my sites.

M: One other thing that Edgar also said years ago was that
why on earth do we want to concentrate on the small
differences between us when we have so much in common. If
TBUK as an organisation has expressed, even inadvertently,
any criticism of LETS then we would want to correct this
immediately. All ther best, Martin

JCT: Both LETS and Timedollars are stable receipts for
stable values. Both have Laplace Transform 1/s. The only
difference are how the tokens are used and what media for
tokens are used. The fact some do not optimize is a problem
that will eventually die away as optimal emerges and people
ditch their loser habits to permit exponential growth.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

1) [TimeBanksUK] http://www.Zero2Nineteen.co.uk,
2) Francois Rataj: Book: The French LETS saga
3) France: Erreur d'inflation
4) Mike Krolikowski: Argentina resorts to UNILETS
5) Joe Wooldridge: Disagreement with watch "death-gamble"


1) [TimeBanksUK] http://www.Zero2Nineteen.co.uk
-----------------------------------------------

JCT: This was the article that informed me of the the
SCHOOLETS - Time banks Project in the UK. I don't know who
wrote this article so I'll just call them 019:

019: Clocking on
30 January 2003
http://www.zero2nineteen.co.uk/articles/article.asp?liarticleid=
39438&liSectionID=29&liParentID=26

Encouraging disaffected young people to volunteer for
activities that help build communities has always been
difficult.

But those behind the growing number of "time banks" argue
that giving young people and other participants time credits
for the volunteering they do means there is an incentive to
get involved and that the activity can build self-esteem
among young people as well as bridging generations.

But there are still significant challenges to the
development of time banks in schools and communities, such
as lack of sustainable funding, the need for external
support and the small size of many projects. There has also
been confusion over the similar names of Time Banks UK, the
national network for time banks, and the separate
organisation TimeBank, which is a media campaign aimed at
encouraging volunteering.

Participants in a time bank "deposit" their time in the bank
by giving practical help and support to others and are able
to "withdraw" their time when they need something done for
themselves.

In some of the youth-oriented time banks participants can
get a refurbished computer after reaching a certain number
of time hours.

Unlike the Lets alternative currency system, in a time bank
everyone's time is worth the same and a broker links people
up and keeps records. The idea was pioneered in the 1980s in
the US, where there are now more than 250 time banks. From
the first UK pilot in 1998 there are now more than 50 in
operation or seeking funding. By September 2002 some 63,000
hours had been given and received by time bank participants
in the UK.

JCT: How sad. The only difference is something that they try
to control that they should not try to control because when
they finally revert to high-velocity time-paper notes, no
one can stop the doctor and the dentist from charging what
the fair market will bear and no will mind when there's no
interest making their debts grow.

019: Most are targeted at socially excluded groups and
research commissioned by the New Economics Foundation
suggests that time bank volunteers are far more likely to
come from low income households than traditional volunteers.

For example, the Time 2 Trade time bank in Sandwell, West
Midlands, is aimed at promoting health and well-being on
three deprived housing estates.

The time bank is led by a partnership between the local
council and primary care trust and funded by the health
action zone. It is building on local estates' tenants and
residents associations and aims to have a drop-in centre and
management committee on each estate.

The time bank has involved a youth group from the local
Baptist church, says time bank co-ordinator Daniel Grainger.
The youth group, which is mainly comprised of disaffected
young people, has been involved in delivering leaflets for
the time bank on the estates and clearing litter.

In return they have received access to computers at a local
IT provider, trips to a rock climbing centre and a disco
organised by another time bank participant.

Adrian Lowe, youth co-ordinator at the West Bromwich Baptist
Church, says that in the initial stages of the time bank the
organisation was patchy because part-time volunteers were
running it.

"When Daniel was appointed it improved a lot because now we
get regular letters telling us how many time credits we've
built up, as well as a manual explaining how it all works,"
he says.

It appeals to the young people, says Lowe, because they can
see the trade-off between community activity and personal
benefit. But building up the number of participants on the
estates will take time.

JCT: My best buddy, Pauline Morrissette, always kept
pointing out that all students fall in love with the idea of
being able to travel on their time-credits. And with the
many thousands of 1/s currency systems on the net, it makes
the lure even that much more attractive.

019: "It's a good idea but it needs to grow bigger to become
effective," says Lowe.

JCT: In the travel sphere, it's already international. I
used my LETS IOUs to travel all of Europe and I know anyone
else who is willing to eventually honor their public word
with work can do so too good heart.

019: Some time banks involving young people are based in
schools. In Tower Hamlets, east London Opt 4 IT covers three
secondary schools.

In this project teenagers give one-to-one tutoring to
younger pupils in subjects like numeracy and English during
lunch hours and after school. When the tutors have gained 30
hours of time credits they are entitled to a refurbished
computer. The scheme is now in its second year and involves
around 45 young people acting as tutors.

JCT: But why can't they also use their hours to travel
overseas where their other Hour systems are ready to
participate?

019: What makes this different to other peer tutoring
schemes is that the tutors are pupils who are under-
performing at school themselves because of personal problems
and often have high truancy rates.

"Just because they are disaffected does not mean they're not
bright enough to be tutors," says Chris Jones, director of
economic and community regeneration at the Community
Education Development Centre, an educational trust which is
helping run the project.

She says the tutors receive a boost to their self-esteem and
that initial research has suggested the time bank results in
lower truancy rates and improved behaviour among those
giving time.

The Tower Hamlets scheme is based on a Chicago project but
is less ambitious as the Chicago model includes activities
that involve parents as well as pupils. Jones says one of
the challenges such school-based time banks face is the need
to involve school staff.

"Teachers are hard-pressed but their involvement is needed
to make it work and it's dependent on the goodwill of
staff," she says.

Bridging generations in communities is one of the aims of
Stonehouse Fair Shares in rural Gloucestershire, one of
several time banks in the county. It is based around a
number of sheltered housing schemes for older people in the
town of Stonehouse.

Pupils from a local secondary school take part in communal
activities to help older residents, such as picking up
shopping or planting bulbs, says Julie Baxter, Gloucester
City time bank manager.

The young people taking part are non-GCSE pupils, some of
whom have behavioural problems. The scheme is part of the
school's citizenship curriculum and, in this scheme, the
pupils do not receive time credits in return for the work
they do.

Baxter says she hopes the pupils' experience will lead some
of them to take part in other time banks when they leave
school.

JCT: Believe me, if they can use their Hours earned all over
the world, there's no reason anyone would ever stop using
their Internet accounts. And let's all keep in mind, these
are kids who will be internet-wise.

019: "The contact between the generations is very important
as many of the older people have a negative view of the
young and some of the pupils have very limited contact with
older people," says Baxter.

The IPPR research group is launching a scheme of alternative
currencies in primary and secondary schools this summer, in
which six schools will experiment with Lets and six with
time banks.

Joe Hallgarten, a researcher at IPPR, says the time banks
will be broader than those piloted in Tower Hamlets and
Gloucestershire and that parental involvement will be sought
in some schools.

In recent years there has been some rivalry between Lets and
time banks, says Hallgarten, adding that the IPPR project
will seek to mix elements of the two approaches. "The Lets
schemes will employ a broker, which is a time bank idea, and
the time banks will have a directory of services offered,
which is usually only found in Lets schemes," he says.

JCT: How better to prove that they both do the same thing
and performance differences are purely a function of the
skill of the operators.

019: While there has been some success in developing time
banks that involve younger people it is still early days and
there are obstacles to be overcome before the concept can
truly take off.

JCT: Once the idea of "LETS Travel" hits the student chat
rooms, there'll be no stopping it.

Gill Seyfang, co-author of a report on time banks published
by radical think tank the New Economics Foundation,
identifies a number of major hurdles facing time banks.
These include ensuring that schemes reflect the local
context because she says that there is no one-size-fits-all
model.

JCT: Well, that's wrong. Everyone on one database is the
one-size-fits-all that with the highest engineering
efficiency,

019: Another key issue is recognising that time bank
participants often have large support needs and so the
staffing and other infrastructure must be properly
resourced.

A culture change is also often required, as it can be
difficult getting people to ask for services, Seyfang found,
and it can be hard getting people to understand the
difference between time banking and traditional
volunteering.

JCT: Time banks keep track of time you're owed, volunteering
means you're owed nothing. What's so hard?

019: Despite these challenges, NEF believes that a "tipping
point" could be reached sometime in the next decade that
would put time banks in a significant number of health
centres, schools and housing estates, totalling perhaps
10,000 to 15,000 time banks across the country.

JCT: As soon as computer-literate kids realize they can be
travelling the world being housed by other kids, the
difficulties of the adults in seeing the big picture won't
be a problem.

1 Gill Seyfang, Karen Smith, The Time of our Lives, New
Economics Foundation, 2002 www.neweconomics.org
===

2) Francois Rataj: Book: The French LETS saga
---------------------------------------------

>Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 09:41:00 +0100
>From: francois.rataj@... (Francois Rataj)
>Subject: Book: The French LETS saga
>To: TURMEL@...
Hello John, To introduce my book "The French LETS saga" I
built a site: http://lets.sel.free.fr
Please, could you disclose this address to all LETS groups?

JCT: With pleasure. Your book was lots of fun to read and I
recommend it. Do you take a portion in time-credits?

Pour pr=E9senter mon livre =AB The French LETS saga =BB j'ai
construit un site: http://lets.sel.free.fr
Merci de le faire conna=EEtre aupr=E8s de tous les adh=E9rents LETS.

JCT: Avec plaisir. Votre livre etait fun a lire et je peux
le recommander. Acceptes-tu une portion en credits-temps?
===

3) France: Erreur d'inflation
-----------------------------

From: http://webduweb.free.fr/argentin.htm
Le "patacon" est un papier cree par la Province de Buenos
Aires (la capitale) mais on l'utilise aussi comme de
l'argent, c'est une sorte d'argent cree par les provinces
pour payer leurs dettes. Le FMI est contre le patacon et
contre les 35 "papiers"(ou plus) de chaque provence car
c'est un moyen de "faire" de l'argent.... Mais lorque qu'on
"fabrique" de l'argent en meme temps on "fabrique" de
l'inflation.... L'eternel retour de la malediction
argentine...

The "Patacon" is a bond created by the Province of Buenos
Aires (the capital) but it's also used as money, it's a kind
of money created by the provinces to pay their debts. The
IMF is against the Patacon and against the 35 "bonds" (or
more) of each province because it's a way of "making"
money... But when we "fabricate' money, we "fabricate"
inflation at the same time... the eternal return of the
Argentine malediction...

JCT: It's obvious that this person believes that inflation
is Shift A, more money chasing the goods, rather than Shift
B, the same money chasing less goods after foreclosure. And
despite my article where it is reported that increasing local
currency reduced inflation in Argentina from 1000% to 36% a
year at http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/argentin.htm they
condemn rather than applaud all these thriving LETS monies.
===

4) Mike Krolikowski: Argentina resorts to UNILETS
-------------------------------------------------

>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:33:00 +0200
>From: kkk@... (kkk)
>Subject: Re: [FORUM ATTAC] TURMEL: #3 Argentina resorts to
>To: TURMEL@...
KKK: John Turmel
Your game with watches and buckets of water leaves me
somewhat disturbed. I am not a professional in finance,
banking or global speculation, however, as a victim of this
system I would like to make some remarks.
I don't understand why you call your explications a "game
theory" unless someone really plays it somewhere. As far as
I can see it is an analogie. The explications and
vulgarisations of "scientific" theories is full of analogies
and most of them have a real pedagogic value. Here I think
there is a serious error.

What do your watches and buckets of water really represent?
Since the United States quit the gold standard in 1972
(approximately) there is no longer any need for the watches.

JCT: No, there is a need for collateral when new tokens are
issued. The watches represent collateral behind the tokens.
This is elementary.

KKK: You are condescending about the tobin tax, assimilating
it to splashes. The original idea of Tobin was to calm
exactly these splashes. it would be more to the truth to to
be critical towards the speculators who are doing all the
splashing.

JCT: You missed my analogy. Everyone goes to the banker's
money pump and borrows 10 liters of new liquidity and every
promises to return 11 liters to the pump house. They all
enter the pool and my point is that no matter how Mr. Tobin
wants them to splash their funds in the pool, there will
never be enough liters for everyone to repay the pump house
both the principal and the interest when the pump house only
issued the principal. So the imbalance is in the pump house
and no amount of splashing funds in the pool affects the
problem in the pumphouse.

KKK: Whats more, they are their splashing from the side of
the pool without getting wet. they have splashed so well
that 98% of the water is now around the edge of the pool and
does not take part in the tangible economy that is going on
in the pool. Although it does have tangible effect on the
people who are trying to drink from the pool. I don't think
I have taken the analogy to far, on the other hand I don't
think you have taken it far enough. I liked your
explications about the Argentine system, but it is only one
of the many possibiliies of correctly managing the 2% left
in the pool. How do you propose to put some of the splashed
water back in the pool. The Tobin Tax is one proposition
amongst others. Mike Krolikowski

JCT: LETS money pumps save us going to the loanshark's
pumps.
===

5) Joe Wooldridge Disagreement with your watch poker game
representing "death-gamble"
---------------------------

>Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:40:26 -0800 (PST)
>From: joejmd@... (Joe Wooldridge)
>Subject: Disagreement with your watch poker game
representing "death-gamble"
>To: TURMEL@...

JW: Hi JCT, I've read through most of your essays and
debates on the current monetary system. I enjoyed reading
them and hopefully I have learned from them.

To start off, the idea that raising interest rates can
curb inflation might seem ok since less loans are
given with higher interest rates, meaning less money
created, but it seems to me impossible under the
current system to have "shift A" inflation (more
money) since all money is created as a loan and backed
by collateral. So in this I am in agreement with
you (correct me if I failed to understand something...)

I also agree that forclosure can cause inflation. If
someone takes a loan out, spends the credit into
circulation, but then the loan is not paid off... the
money spent into circulation is not paid (destroyed)
and the forclosure means that the collateral no longer
represents that money that is forever in circulation
(causing inflation). (Again feel free to correct me
if there is something not right.)

So while I think that "shift B" (same money chasing
less goods) is the cause of inflation, I am wondering
exactly how interest is causing forclosure.

JCT: Interest causes your bank account to hit zero before
your debt is paid which then triggers the courts to cause
foreclosure. If you had more guns than the sheriffs, sure,
we watch those TV fantasies where they can't foreclose. But
in reality, foreclosures happen to broke little people who
cannot fight back.

JW: I won't repost the game since I am sure you don't need
it for memory , but consider the following:

When the 9 winners paid back their Interest + principal,
they each gave the banker 11 chips. The banker destroys the
principal and keeps the interest. So now the banker has 9
chips, and the borrower has 1 chip(since 9 X 11 = 99). There
are still 10 chips in circulation but the borrower can only
possibly get 10 chips, not the 11 required.

JCT: Tada! You're only the second person I know to have
found that! The steady-state debt guys always repeat that
the banker spends the interest back so it just keeps going
on forever. I accept that the banker could keep spending
it back to keep it going and raised the question of what
happens when the banker uses his power to "not" spend it
back. And if it causes death, is using that power then
acceptable? But the point Joe has just stressed is that once
signed up to a death-gamble, there is no way out without
some forgiveness. That last piece of interest can never be
paid.

JW: The key difference between our models, is that yours
does not properly show how forclosure causes inflation, that
the money representing the collateral must somehow survive
while the collateral does not (shift b, money chasing less
goods).

So when Ed Flaherty said that when the bank spends money
back into circulation, it is interest/debt free he is
correct because it is inflationary money, no longer backed
by collateral no longer representing a debt. This is hardly
a good thing and it does not prove whatsover that the
current banking system is better than LETS, and as I showed
even with the banks 9 chips of inflationary money is not
enough to pay the 10th's Loan.

JCT: If you look at the plumbing in the advanced engineering
analysis at http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm
you'll see that I agree that the money paid in interest
remains alive in the reservoir rather than be extinguished
down the drain. But the more and the quicker the banker
spends that interest back into circulation, the more he can
attenuate the effects of the death-gamble. If he spends
much, he can cut down failures. If he spends little, he can
increase failures and foreclosure. Such power to manipulate
people's debts should not repose in private hands.

JW: On a further note, if you would like to talk further,
I would like to propose how I think "inactive money"
can also cause forclosure. Inactive money like the
deposits that sit in the bank. Remember that a Loan is
not lending depositors money, but is the creation of
new money. Joey

JCT: If you check my bank poetry, you'll notice that I did a
verse on the creation of money that you should approve of at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombank.htm
===

--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

www.ippr.org.uk/research/files/team23/project32/schooLets_outline.pdf

JCT: This is quite an eye-opener:

Institute for Public Policy Research
30-32 Southampton St London WC2E 7RA
tel 0207 470 6100 fax 0207 470 6111
j.hallgarten@... http://www.ippr.org

SCHOOLETS / Time Banks for Schools
building community currencies in schools

The Institute for Public Policy Research is Britain's
leading progressive think tank. Our objective is to develop
new routes to social justice through research and action
that influences policy and practice.

IPPR's education team has initiated SchooLets/Time Banks for
Schools, an action research project that aims to give
schools the encouragement, advice and support to start their
own community currencies (Local Exchange Trading Schemes and
Time Banks). The bulk of the funding has been secured for
the project. Additional funding is now being sought to pay
for the part time salary of a broker in each school.

Background

Locally denominated Community currencies have been in use
throughout the world for hundreds of years, complementing
mainstream currencies. In the last twenty years these
currencies have been "designed" to make them more robust and
sustainable. The currencies are used to measure the value of
transactions between a group of people who agree to exchange
goods and/or services, not as one-to-one bartering but with
this pooled system of credits and debits. Thus, they create
a local currency which can only be spent within this group.
On providing a service, traders earn local currency units
which are issued by other traders. These are then registered
as credits in a locally managed central account. Traders
then spend from their account with any other members of the
network. All credit and debit balances are interest-free.
Such currencies can build social capital and enable
marginalised and wealthier communities to identify and pool
local resources to meet local needs.

The two most commonly used systems are Local Exchange
Trading Systems (LETS) and Time Banks. The main differences
between LETS and Time Banks are summarised in the appendix.
There are over four hundred LETS in the UK, containing
between thirty and three hundred members. In the USA, some
LETS or "time money" systems have thousands of members. Time
Banks originated in the USA in the mid-80s. There are now
thirty five Time Banks in the UK, and 88,000 hours have been
traded.

The Project

With a few rare exceptions community currencies are, as yet,
untried in the school setting. This is surprising since, in
many ways, schools are ideal locations to initiate such
currencies. A school that successfully introduced a currency
could benefit from the following outcomes.

- Greater parental involvement in school life and children's
learning

The crucial role of parents as partners in their children's
learning is universally recognised. Positive engagement with
parents has also emerged as a key factor in school quality,
especially in schools in disadvantaged areas, where such
participation can act as a protective barrier against the
multiple factors that cause underachievement. The benefit of
the "parent effect" can impact on individual families as
well as the wider community. If more parents are using their
energy positively within the school setting, and children
see their parents as achievers, this should also lead to
greater parental involvement in the learning journey of
their own children.

This Government has launched several initiatives to improve
parental involvement in learning at the national level (for
instance the National Year of Reading), but has been less
successful at encouraging schools to engage with parents in
innovative, creative ways. Community currencies could
encourage parents (especially the "not yet reached") to
engage with schools in new ways, harnessing a full spectrum
of untapped skills and passions. Parents would not only be
volunteers, but shape school culture through such
involvement.

- School as a community hub

SchooLets could also provide schools with a mechanism to
reach out beyond their parents. Schools could use a currency
to become social capital banks, where families and the wider
community can invest, deposit and withdraw various forms of
support. Organisations and individuals from both private and
voluntary sectors could also be co-opted into such
currencies. There may also be opportunities for currencies
to be organised across neighbouring schools, thus fostering
co-operation and interdependence.

- Citizenship - serving the curriculum and developing
individuals

Citizenship is now part of the National Curriculum, and will
be statutory in secondary schools from September 2002. A
community currency could become an integral part of a
schools citizenship curriculum, encouraging active
citizenship, social and moral responsibility, and an
alternative form of "financial literacy". In secondary
schools, the involvement of pupils would be central. As well
as participating in trading their own skills and resources,
SchooLets should, as far as possible, be co-ordinated by
pupils. Community currencies would also engender an
atmosphere of collectivity, not individuality, which is
crucial to creating a "citizenship school".

Possible Scenarios

A pupil receives Time Credits for the hours he spends as a
learning mentor for a younger pupil. He uses the Credits to
pay for some sports coaching from another pupil. A parent
receives Time Credits for assisting with the school garden
one weekend. Her child uses Credits to pay for an after
school activity.

Another parent earns LETS through supporting children's ICT
learning. The parent spends the LETS to buy books from a
local shop that is participating in the LETS scheme. The
shop may spend the LETS on an advert in the school
newsletter (designed by the pupils). A teacher is looking
for a bicycle mechanic, and pays a parent in LETS, which he
has earned from running an after school activity.

The Proposal

IPPR is initiating community currencies in twelve schools,
all based in England. The project will be co-ordinated by
Joe Hallgarten, researcher at the IPPR, with the support of
others listed below. It will rely on the active
participation of a paid broker in every school. Each school
will set its own priorities for it currency, and determine
the boundaries of acceptable transactions and membership.

Schools in Liverpool and Leeds will be using the LETS model,
while schools in the South will use the Time Banks Model. It
is hoped that, through trialling both currencies and sharing
experiences and practice, by the end of the project a model
can be created that could be put into place independently by
any school.

The success of the project will be measured according to:
- the vibrancy of each currency, measured by number and
diversity of transactions and participants;
- the extent to which each currency has contributed to the
three themes of parental involvement, school as a community
hub, and citizenship education noted above (each school will
be evaluated on the objectives it sets for its currency);
- the sustainability of the currencies in the pilot schools
beyond the life of the project;
- the number of other schools who express an interest in
starting their own currency.

Progress Made

Stage One: Planning September 2001 - January 2002

During this early stage contact was made with many
interested schools, and views were sought from many leading
practitioners and policymakers. Research was gathered on
community currencies, and more generally on citizenship
education. A full proposal was also developed for further
fundraising and research.

Stage Two: Development January August 2002

This stage sought to market the idea to schools, through
individual meetings, training days and other publicity. We
discussed the project with representatives from over fifty
schools and held training days in Manchester and London for
over twenty schools. At this stage we also began to work in
partnership with Time Banks UK, who will work with IPPR to
support the Time Banks schools. Following further
discussion, the schools below have been chosen to
participate in the project. We also began to create
collaborative structures and resources for the project,
including an embryonic website. An evaluation structure is
currently being created. A full progress report is
available.

The Next Steps

Stage Three: Action September 2002 July 2004

Participating schools will introduce currencies during the
2002-2003 school year. This stage will include:
- the appointment and training of a broker for each school;
- networking opportunities for participating schools to
share experiences;
- differing levels of support from IPPR and Time Banks UK
for each school, including termly visits;
- ongoing internal and external evaluations (each currency
will be evaluated for at least bone full academic year);
- at least one external event to discuss the progress of
SchooLets;
- the creation and use of lesson plans and other resources
to integrate the understanding and use of community
currencies with a school's citizenship curriculum.

Stage Four: Rollout September 2004

The long term aim of the project will be to produce a
resource pack so that schools interested in setting up a
community currency could do so independently. Before this is
realisable, the project may need to work for longer with
participating schools, or be extended to a larger number of
pilot schools.

The Role of the Broker

The role of the Time Bank broker is to develop and manage
the currency by recruiting members, linking them up and
keeping the accounts using the TimeKeeper software. The role
of the LETS broker is to recruit users, identify and develop
their skills and needs, and to identify and promote trading
opportunities.

Brokers' tasks include:
- recruiting new participants to the currency;
- linking up individual requests and offers;
- setting up and keeping members time credit accounts using
the software (Time Banks only);
- organising group events including training and member
support groups;
- encouraging the involvement of users in the management and
development of the project through a Steering group;
- outreaching to groups, including local health and
community organisations so that they can get involved;
- promoting the time bank by getting publicity in the local
papers and radio(Time Banks only).

Many of these tasks can be delegated, especially to older
pupils, but the broker is responsible for overseeing the
currency. The project is fundraising to pay for the time of
a broker for one day per week. It is likely that a broker
will be chosen from existing staff in the school, for
instance paying for the additional time of a learning mentor
or support assistant. Resources are available for the broker
training, support and networking.

The Twelve Participating Schools
LETS SCHOOLS

Four schools are participating with the support of the
Dingle Granby and Toxteth Education Action Zone. The zone
will have one common LETS System, co-ordinated by the Zone
and called EAZLets (pronounced EasyLets).

Shorefields Community Comprehensive School in Liverpool is
an 11-18, mixed, multiracial, multi-faith Comprehensive
School, serving over 600 pupils. Fourteen per cent of pupils
speak English as an additional language. The largest ethnic
group in the school is Bangladeshi. Twenty-eight per cent of
the school population are pupils from ethnic minorities.
Seventy per cent of pupils are on free school meals. About
forty-nine per cent of pupils are provided with additional
support to help them with their learning difficulties. It is
the site of a City Learning Centre and has just been awarded
Specialist Status as a Technology College.

St Annes R C Primary School serves a diverse community, the
majority of whom live in council houses or rented
accommodation. 67% of pupils are eligible for Free School
Meals. The percentage of pupils (13.4 per cent) speaking
English as an additional language is higher than the city
average.

Beaufort Park Primary School opened in September 1998
following the amalgamation of two schools and moved to new
premises in June 2000. There is a much lower than average
percentage of professional parents in the area, and a
significant number of pupils are from single parent
families. There are 192 pupils on roll. Seventy-one per cent
of pupils are eligible for free school meals, and turnover
is above average.

St Silas C of E Primary School is situated in Toxteth,
Liverpool and is similar in size to the average primary
school with 190 pupils on roll, 95 boys and 95 girls. Just
under 80 per cent of the pupils are eligible for free school
meals and this is well above the national average. Over 33
per cent of the pupils speak English as an additional
language

All the schools hope that the EAZLETS will enhance their
links with parents and with the local business community and
provide opportunities to build citizenship and initiative
amongst their pupil communities. The focus of the primary
schools is on parental engagement, whilst Shorefields aim to
integrate the project with their citizenship education
activities. The EAZ has good links with the business
community, and a number of businesses have already expressed
a willingness to engage with SchooLets.

Little London Community Primary School in Leeds is situated
in the eleventh most deprived ward in the country. It was
rebuilt in 1998 following an arson attack which completely
destroyed the old school. It serves 219 pupils with a
significant minority being from ethnic minority families. Of
those who attend the attainment level on entry is well below
average and the eligibility to free school meals is well
above average.

The school enjoys the support of the local community and has
high levels of staff retention. It aims to roll out the LETS
project to surrounding schools, especially in the local SRB
area, with whom it works closely. Little London has recently
secured the backing of Leeds-wide faith communities in a
pioneering project in which volunteers will visit parents
homes in order to complete minor repairs, decorations etc,
and who will identify the parents skills and needs, as a
prerequisite to the parents participation in the LETS
project.

TIME BANK SCHOOLS

All Saints Catholic School and Technology College in Barking
and Dagenham is an 11-18, mixed comprehensive school which
has enjoyed Technology College status since 1994. The school
actively promotes the need to care for and help others as a
key aspect of active citizenship. It aims to use Time Banks
to offer recognition and reward for students who take an
active role in the community, both within and beyond the
school.

The borough has formed a Time Bank steering group, including
a representative from the Council's Community Development
Team, Age Concern, Community Service Volunteers and the
Disablement Association of Barking and Dagenham. Much of the
discussion has focused around establishing a Time Bank
within a school, and the member agencies are fully
supportive of this and willing to participate. A Time Bank
would give school community enrichment activities a
structure within to operate, as well as a practical way of
measuring and monitoring the impact and success of school-
community activities.

Callington Community College in Cornwall is a mixed
comprehensive school for pupils aged 11 to 18. The school
has a very wide, rural catchment area. There are 1,105
pupils on roll, 174 in the Sixth Form. The school has
recently acquired Sports College Status. The school ethos is
centred on the desire to help and prepare each individual
student for the challenges of modern society. To achieve
this they are working towards four guiding principles:
lifelong learning; high levels of personal achievement;
respect; and community.

The school will initiate Time Banks through the Junior
College Support Team (JCST). Made up of 25 Year Eight
students, its aim is to provide voluntary community service
in the college and to support their juniors in Year Seven.
The mission for this group will be expanded to include
commitment to the Timebanks project so that their support
can also be drawn from the community outside the college.
Direct links will be made through the JCST between parents
and college for a wider support constituency. Support issues
include youth counselling, parental involvement in events,
fundraising and lifelong learning opportunities. The
Cornwall Centre for Volunteers will also be involved in the
project.

Citischool in Milton Keynes is a response by the Education
Business Partnership to the perceived needs of local
secondary schools and in particular, those of a challenging
group of Year 11 young people who have typically experienced
little success at school. It opened in September 2001 with
12 students, and will have 25 students for the next academic
year. It has no buildings of its own and with the whole of
Milton Keynes being regarded as a resource for the schools
activities it has been called "a school without walls". The
programme of study is based around work experience and the
acquiring of key skills. The involvement of local business
and commerce in curriculum delivery is extensive, which
means that a distinctive feature of the school is a reliance
on people other than qualified teachers in teaching and
motivating students.

A Time Banks at Citischool will be used to recognise and
reward the core and out of hours learning activities of the
pupils themselves, and to encourage the participation of
businesses and voluntary organisations in these students
learning experiences. The possibility of a group of students
acting as brokers, as a "young enterprise" will be explored.

Charles Dickens Primary School in Southwark serves 289
pupils, forty-three per cent of whom are entitled to free
school meals. English is an additional language for sixty-
four per cent of the pupils, approximately half of whom
require assistance to gain access to the curriculum.

With a culturally diverse parent population, in many cases
relocating in London, the schools parents have a variety of
skills which the school is not necessarily aware of. As the
school improves the school aims for parents to develop and
share their skills and feel they are active partners in the
enrichment of the school community.

Hargrave Park Primary School in North Islington serves a
multi-cultural community that includes a significant number
of refugees. English is a second language for half of the
children in the School, which has a total roll of 270. The
neighbourhood where the School is located is part of one of
the most deprived wards. It is the first School in the
country with a time bank, the Whittington Time Exchange,
developed by the Whittington Agenda 21 Group, a voluntary
organisation based at the School.

The Time Exchange was launched in January 2002. More than 30
members of the school community have exchanged over 200
hours. The Time Exchange is seen by both the school and the
Group as a vital tool to build community. The first stage
has concentrated in involving members of the School's
community. They now need additional funding to continue the
employment of a Time Broker responsible for servicing the
existing network and widening it to include members of other
communities in the neighbourhood.

Rydens School is a mixed 11 to 18 comprehensive school,
situated in Elmbridge in Surrey. There are 1250 students on
roll with 125 students in the sixth form. Although there is
a fairly large spread of social backgrounds, the catchment
area includes the particularly deprived area of North
Walton.

The school aims to place use the Time Bank as a key tool to
reach out to community organisations, and to ensure that
active citizenship is embedded in the curriculum. Thus the
main focus will be Rydens' students, although parents may be
incorporated at a later date. Discussions are taking place
with the EU-funded North Walton Partnership to secure their
active involvement in the Time Bank. It is also planned that
participation in the Time Bank can be validated through the
new Surrey Graduation Certificate (an I.B. style award). It
is hoped that a core group of Rydens 16-18 year old students
can take on as much of the brokering role as possible.

Varndean School in Brighton is a Technology College with a
comprehensive intake of 1199 students aged 11 to 16. The
proportion of students eligible for free school meals is
broadly average and students represent the full range of
socio-economic backgrounds. The proportion of students with
special educational needs, at 24 per cent, is above average.

The school is looking to Time Banks as a mechanism to reach
out to the community, and encourage active citizenship. As
well as encouraging students and parents to share their
skills within the school site, time credits will also be
used to reward other voluntary activities, especially
through the curriculum plus initiative. For instance,
students already e-mentor others from neighbouring primary
schools, and this will be extended next year to face to face
work in the schools. The school is enthusiastic that, at a
later stage, a single Time Bank is created for its feeder
primary schools and Varndean College, which sits on the same
campus.

Other Project Partners

Les Moore and other members of The LETSystem Trust are
working to support the LETS schools (Liverpool and Leeds).

Karen Smith from the New Economics Foundation is supporting
the Time Banks schools (London and the South).

Tony Breslin and others from the Citizenship Foundation have
agreed to co-ordinate the evaluation of the project, and to
publicise the project where appropriate.

Suzanne Hood from the Institute of Education has agreed to
be an external evaluator.

Outcomes and Dissemination

The final outcomes for the whole project will be:
- A project report and evaluation report outlining the
progress of the project in each individual school, and
summarising the progress of the project as a whole;
- A website to give publicly available information about the
project, and enable all schools to consider participating;
- A resource pack, available online and in hard copy,
enabling any school to set up a community currency
independently.

Dissemination will be carried out with the support of IPPRs
external affairs team.

Why IPPR?

IPPR has a strong track record of innovation in education
and training policy. It is well known for its work on the
University for Industry. Wasted Youth, a report on
reintegrating disaffected teenagers, has influenced
government policy. The education team has also published
Tomorrows Citizens, a critically acclaimed collection on
citizenship and education. Parents Exist OK! an analysis of
parent-school relationships has informed policy and
practice. Our 2001 publication Opportunity for Whom? Options
for the funding and structure of post-16 education set out
clear solutions to the problems and challenges facing the
post-16 sector. Our most recent report on the Future of the
Teaching Profession, due to be published in May 2002, has
already initiated creative thinking and informed debate.

IPPR acts as a forum for debate on a range of issues,
bringing together practitioners, key government advisors,
academics and other experts. We also, quite uniquely for a
thinktank, involve the public in almost every aspect of our
work through focus groups, citizens juries and opinion
polling. IPPRs Public Involvement Programme is at the
forefront of developing and promoting public involvement in
all aspects of public policy.

SchooLets/ TimeBanks for Schools will mark a new direction
in IPPRs activities, since they require grassroots
implementation, rather than research alone. The project
could therefore have a considerable influence over the
future direction of IPPR. If you are interested in
supporting or participating in the project, please contact
Joe Hallgarten, Senior Education Researcher, on 0207 470
0024 or at j.hallgarten@....

IPPR acknowledges the contributions made by CfBT Research
and Development and the Lloyds TSB Foundation towards the
funding of this project.

JCT: Great news. Pretty soon the kids will be able to
explain to the adults that there are no differences between
the LETS 1/s time currency and Time Banks 1/s currency
except for how they are used.

Let's hope they learn the value of high-velocity paper
tokens.

Let's hope they decide they want to spend their credits all
over the world in a UNILETS time-based currency system.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

1) Robin Schuett-Hames: USA PATRIOT act and LETSystem
2) Alex Rupp: Minneapolis Council LETS
3) Ishay (Israel): LETS anarchism?
4) Mario & Estelle Carota: Great Catholic Abolitionists
5) (Sue): The King is in his Counting House...

JCT: I have been so swamped with messages I'd like to reply
to while juggling pro-cannabis battles and a living that
I've accepted that the best way for me to proceed it so work
backwards chronologically. I assume people who wrote me a
year ago may have found their answers elsewhere so I'd be
getting to them last.

My standard format is everything in English. French I'll
translate into English. If anyone wants 3 Hours per hour for
translation of English into French or Spanish or Japanese,
it's open.

1) Robin Schuett-Hames: USA PATRIOT act and LETSystem
-----------------------------------------------------

>Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 18:08:46 -0800 (PST)
>From: Lafabulas@... (Robin Schuett-Hames)
Subject: [SantaCruzLETS] USA PATRIOT act and LETSystem

Were any of you aware of this clause of the USA
Patriot act and its implications???

Here's the attachment:

Hey all, i was just doing a bit of research on the USA
PATRIOT act and discovered this little provision in

Section 361 (Financial crimes enforcement network):

   "Assist Federal, State, local, and foreign law
enforcement and regulatory authorities in combating
the use of informal, nonbank networks and payment and
BARTER SYSTEM mechanisms that permit the transfer of
funds or the equivalent of funds without records and
without compliance with criminal and tax laws."

JCT: But the use of cash issue by banks "permit the transfer
of funds or the equivalent of funds without records and
without compliance with criminal and tax laws." The argument
to make LETS currency illegal is the same argument to make
paper currency illegal. It's a red herring that could win
the pot if no one's there to fight the point.

The problem is that it makes sending an IOU on the internet
something that needs to be combatted.

>Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 18:46:54 +0000
>From: yacinfo@... (ernie yacub)
>Subject: Re: [ijccr] USA Patriot Act and CCs

JCT: Local Employment Trading Systems are called CCs,
community currencies, most often by those who don't see the
big UNILETS CC coming in the sky.

EY: this should not be a problem for those cc systems that
comply - all the more reason to do it by the book - keep
records of all transactions that go through the system, tell
account holders to pay taxes where taxes are due. ernie

JCT: It's true that making everyone keep meticulous books
is a good defence except that it imposes users of CCs
accountability requirements that are not imposed on users of
the other CC, cash currency, that is just as usable to
defraud the tax man as IOUs can be. This does not challenge
the basis of the attack as unfair because it's not up to the
banks to police what people do with their tokens for the
federal tokens and it shouldn't be for the community ones
either. Saying "we can comply, more reason to comply," just
loads extra bvrden on the better system and this kind of
handicap need not be accepted if we tie ourselves to the
same demands of neutrality in commerce that the banks claim
with their tokens.

>Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 20:36:58 -0800
>From: tboyle@... (Todd Boyle)
>Subject: Re: [ijccr] USA Patriot Act and CCs
>To: Lafabulas@... (Robin Schuett-Hames), ijccr@yahoogroups.com

One could investigate this provision from a strictly
rational, legal viewpoint, and try to stay within the
provisions of the many laws today, governing the accepting
of deposits from the public, making payments, knowing your
customer, selling securities to the public, etc. etc. etc.

I'm tellin you it's going to be a lot easier if you stick
with accounts receivable from customers in the ordinary
conduct of a trade or business. That is a place where it's
just very difficult to legislate that ordinary businesses
are prohibited from factoring their receivables and so
forth. Or pledging them to creditors (again, where, their
liability arose in the course of buying inventory or
equipment or land etc. ) Signed promissory notes rock. Very
hard to legislate against those.

JCT: Right on. No need to buckle whether they demand extra
accounting from us or not.

One of the reasons for more and more laws against banking
and payments is because they are evil inherently.

JCT: Sorry, tokens are inherently nothing but IOUs. And
there's nothing inherently evil about an IOU. Interest on an
IOU is evil, sure, the Torah, Bible, Koran tell us so, but
IOUs themselves, the Torah, Bible and Koran say to pay IOUs,
and only rebel against the usury.

TB: They mask the source of payments. They break the trust
by breaking the business connection between all the peoples
of the planet. We want nonrepudiable settlement yes but not
to be walled into isolated cells (with only the prison
warden able to see the entire movement of goods and services
globally, over time.) Todd Boyle CPA  Kirkland WA 425-827-
3107 www.arapxml.net  AR/AP everywhere.

JCT: Okay, looks like the USA Patriot Act will let the
Amerikan diktatorship stomp on Community Currencies for
being unable to prevent the same funds transfers that
Federal Cash Currencies are unable to prevent either. But
the end run is:


2) Alex Rupp: Minneapolis Council LETS
--------------------------------------

>Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 17:30:31 -0600
>From: rupp0035@... ("n. alex rupp")
>Subject: Working toward a LETS network in Minneapolis
>To: TURMEL@...

AR: Dear Mr. Turmel,

I've read your many articles and threads about the LETS
system, and I want to help establish LETS banks across the
State of Minnesota. I've been asked to put together a packet
of information about this and to submit it to the
Minneapolis City council, who recently attained two green
party members. Can you give me any suggestions for this, or
do you have any promotional material that might help me?
You've made this argument to city governments in the past,
and I would really like to draw on your experience or that
of people you know.

JCT: Your best bet has to be to convince the American
Timedollar systems in Minnesota to participate.
Unfortunately, they've got a one-track mind when it comes to
controlling that everyone get paid the same 1 Hour for time,
the doctor as the babysitter.
They lose central control when they use paper currency
because they can't prevent the doctor from asking for 4
Hours per hour if he wants to reduce his waiting room line-
up. Or more. Whatever it takes to make his workload
acceptable. And if people think he's worth 6 Hours per hour,
then it's fair no matter what the central controllers wish
to prevent.
As all systems shackled by same-rate philosophers, they
don't grow fast. So you'll have to use a paper timecurrency
whether they want to join or not.

AR: Working toward a brighter America is my dream. It's
about time someone started fighting the good fight down here
in the States, and I think Minneapolis would print a
currency like Toronto did. Anything you can do to help would
be appreciated. Sincerely, Norman Rupp, Minneapolis

From: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pomlizas.htm

JCT: The Toronto community currency has weaknesses. The
tokens are only based on federal cash, not on wealth. Sure,
some casinos only take cash but I and UNILETS will accept
wealth and promised-time as wealth. And the tokens were
issued by a private corporation where issuance by an
authority empowered to accept those tokens in taxes makes
them automatically viable state-wide.

I've done my best to explain the whole process in poetry.
Hope it's not too off-the-wall for the right impact:
From: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pomlizas.htm

With Councils offered Green, there is no need for funds to hunt,
Laws passed allowing councils to accept Green tax up front.
Your subjects who have joined the barter LETS make accolade:
"The trade of goods and services more easily is made.
The program that is used to track our "trading work" accounts,
Is known around the world as LETS. To barter it amounts.

"Local Employment Trading System" is the name it got,
To run the banks' computers right, a way once vainly sought.
Time are the currency used in a LETS account,
Without the interest that forces growth of due amount.
A member who is spending may go negative at will,
A positive goes to the one who makes use of his skill.

MUNICIPAL LETS

A mayor faced with rising costs and shrinking revenues,
To study any proposition, he would not refuse.
"So many think the job of being mayor is such a snap,
But the decisions that I'm faced with are an ugly trap.
With tools, materials and trades that cover total range,
Yet one ingredient is lacking, money to exchange.

If snowstorm hits the city and there are no funds to pay,
What does my council have to do to clear the snow away?
We pledge a million dollar bond to banks to get the cash,
With which we pay the skillful men who clear snow in a flash.
The merchants gladly take the funds for soon they have to pay,
The taxes for the snow removal that was done that day.

But though a million principle was spent, we must request,
That citizens be taxed for principle and interest.
To budget who gets scarce resources isn't ever fun,
But interest on city's debt is always number one.
Whatever rate the bankers set is due amount I pay,
Unhappily, which projects live or die's my only say.

But if it's true Timedollars serve as well as Locals tell:
Why shouldn't government be one to try it out as well?
When another snowstorm hits without the funds to pay,
We'll test to see if LETS Timedollars are a better way.
This time we pledge the million bond to Treasury instead,
And see if use of Green will get us very much ahead.

The merchant should accept Timedollars as another way,
His taxes needed for the snow removal, he can pay.
Again we'll spend a million but the tax to be assessed,
Including only principle without the interest.
Before the budget allocations are completely spent,
Could LETS Timedollars help reverse project abandonment?

If council members for their tax took part of pay in Green,
We'd have some cash left over which is something rarely seen.
If civil service took some Green at least for taxes due,
The extra cash would guarantee that extra jobs ensue.
We'd offer Green to fix a pothole to a company,
Wishing to pay their tax with unemployed capacity.

With Green we'd pay for road repairs and all would gladly take,
Timedollars from the working men so payment all could make;
And we could build our hospitals and all would take as pay,
Timedollars to buy medicine and service they purvey.
Today, in our society, where money clearly lacks,
Who could refuse some paper anyone may use for tax?

Timedollar paychecks could be earned by all desiring work,
The opportunity to pull their weight so few would shirk.
With Green the unemployed around the world will save the day,
Without it they will idly sit and die their lives away.
And best of all we'd have the Green to save environment,
A way to pay to save our lives and make us affluent.

The only question left is how the tax should be assessed,
For goods and services? A simple formula to test.
For services, we'd levy tax at end of every year.
For assets, tax to pay depreciation. It's so clear.
The government that spent the most and had the highest tax,
Would be the government providing citizens the max.

I'll pay Your tax for army and police to handle strife;
I'll pay Your tax for doctors, nurses who protect my life;
I'll pay Your tax for all engaged repairing road and sewer;
I'll pay Your tax for social servants helping out the poor;
I'll even pay Your tax for bureaucrats with no regret;
But I'll resist Your tax for any interest on debt.

JCT: All they have to do is pay for things with small
denomination tax-credits while at the same time levying a
green-tax equivalent to have amount giving the tax-credits
value. Just like the Argentinian provinces did. Follow their
example exactly:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/argentin.htm

How they can be used? Let's say that all municipal employees
agreed to take LETS tax-credits rather than cash in their
paychecks for the amount they would have to pay in municipal
taxes at the end of the year. A municipal worker who pays
$1200 in municipal taxes a year could take $100 a month in
Green tax-credits. That liberates federal cash with which to
pay down debt.

The perfect model is the English Tally system where the king
paid for government expenses with an IOU (tally stick) which
people accepted as money because they could then pay their
taxes with them? And Argentinian provincial bonds. Same
idea. Any piece of paper with the mayor's or governor's
signature that can pay taxes will be viewed in the eyes of
the citizens as a valuable piece of money especially if it
was paid only for people's time at useful toil and not
money's time that did no toil. It doesn't need any federal
stamp on it to then be good in your bailiwick.

Make them acceptable for public transit like Calgary did.
Even lend them out to the citizenry like Ithaca Hours does.
As long as you add a Timetax to the Federal Tax roll for
every Timedollar you spend, both systems, federal cash
accounting and community cash accounting, work independently
of each other.

And make sure you link your token to the Time Standard of
Money for international trading with everyone else.

If an Argentinian farmer can force GM and Ford to take their
Grain IOUs for vehicles, why can't Minnesota's farmer and
cities force GM and Ford to take their grain and tax-credit
IOUs for vehicles too? It's started. It can't be stopped.
====

3) Ishay Israel: LETS anarchism?
--------------------------------

>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:25:57 +0200
>From: abrams@... (Ishay)
>Subject: [turmel] LETS anarchism?

I: I am sure everybody here, including me, looks forward to
the day LETS and similar systems dominate our planet.

JCT: I look forward to the day my one account works
everywhere. My vision of paradise is not having to search
through my wallet for the right currency when my paradise
calls for one that works everywhere.

I: We talk about how governments should and could
participate in such systems, by having their own accounts
or, more currently, accepting taxes in interest free social
credit.

JCT: Which is what Alex Rupp is aiming at in Minnesota.

I: However, recently an interesting point has rissen in a
discussion i was involved in, and this is that local
currency such as LETS is incompatible with central
government as we know it.

JCT: Just because it frees us from domination by centralist
forces does not mean we want it to be incompatible. I want
some kind of world-wide authority to regulate water, power,
telecommunications, for efficiency which does not impede
efficiency in local trading. So "incompatible" is only the
right word if you think of central government as "control."
It's true that UNILETS will make every person free with the
automated support of the world-wide society and with call on
the world-wide resources if efficiency so mandates. So
"equal" to central government, but not "incompatible."

I: Firstly, this is connected with the (understandable)
emphasis on personal freedom: in LETS no one can force you
to make a deal, to pay for something you do not feel you
need. So how does that fit in with paying taxes for
something you personally don't want?

JCT: First, let's get the system for paying taxes for
something we do want, ecological survival, first before
worrying about who pays taxes for things that only certain
people want. The whole world operates on the tax-backward
principle of collect money up front and budget what you can
do versus the tax-forward principle of spend all you need to
in new money and everyone chips in to send it back at the
end.

I: the principle of cost of service is especially
appropriate here and possibly could be extended beyond
management costs to paying for government services of any
kind.

JCT: Sure, I think that banking should be a public utility
whose computers and networks are government subsidized.
That's one tax I'll love to pay.

I: Of course, management costs are not a government service
and should not be which brings me to the second point:
governments tend to have laws for every matter including
finance, and an inherent will to govern (that's why they're
called governments, right?) so they will naturally try to
exercise themselves by using the force of law to take over
the management of local trade systems.

JCT: Just like taking over the banks at every poker game in
town has no effect at all if they keep banking them right,
it doesn't matter who runs the chips as long as they are run
right, great. Let government take over this one system. Run
the chips right. I don't want to have to make my own little
LETS. I want to chip in tax to pay for one big UNILETS.

I: Of course, i may be totally wrong on this prediction, But
then if LETS systems become universal and still free as they
are meant to be, wouldn't that mean a necessary change in
the structure and nature of government and if so, we can
expect considerable resistance to the expansion of LETS
systems? Ishay (Israel)

JCT: Yes, government will change when it is no longer a
question of budgeting scarce funds and becomes a question of
efficiently budgeting scarce resources without financial
impediments. Sure, government will go from a debtor to the
banks helping them pick our pockets to a Big Sugar Daddy
everyone will finally be happy to have around. From everyone
feeling government's worse than pick-pockets to everyone
thinking government's our greatest supporter. Quite a
paradigm shift for sure when "LETS systems become universal
and still free as they are meant to be."
=====

4) Mario & Estelle Carota: Great Catholic Abolitionists
-------------------------------------------------------

>Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:31:35 -0400
>From: mariocarota@... (Mario Carota)
>Subject: IMMORALITY OF CAPITALISM

DEAR FRIENDS,
GREETINGS FROM MALINALCO, MEXICO.
IF YOU FEEL SO INCLINED, PLEASE HELP US WITH OUR MISSION
ABOUT THE IMMORALITY OF CAPITALISM. IT NEEDS TO BE ANALYZED
FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE. WE ALSO TALK ABOUT
COOPERATIVISM AS AN ALTERNATIVE ECONOMIC SYSTEM.
YOU CAN FIND OUR WEB PAGE UNDER "CHRISTIAN ECONOMIC
NETWORKS." THANK YOU, ESTELLE AND MARIKO

JCT: I have read of Mario and Estelle Carota, two catholic
missionaries to the Mexico, and know no one who has advanced
the cause of abolishing usury to the Vatican as they have. I
hope they've put their hearings with Vatican officials on
the questions of money and usury on their site. I can only
welcome them to the internet and avow I know them as
tireless workers against usury in the Catholic Church when I
gave up on it almost 40 years ago.

I did a search and got

look.com for: christian economic networks Carota

--------------------
CHRISTIAN ECONOMIC NETWORKS
- ... Si le interesa invertir en la produccion de "UN ASUNTO
DE INTERES" por favor comuniquese con los Carota en
carota@... . ...
http://www.dsinet.com.mx/cen/p3.htm

Sleight Leadership Program
- Carota, E., & Carota, M. (1996). Christian Economic
Networks. Santa Cruz: Christian Economic Networks. Carter,
SL (1996). (Integrity). New York: BasicBooks. ...
http://www.albion.edu/campusprog/sleight-library.asp

Lack of Interest
- The history of usury is ably told by Estelle and Mario
Carota in their book, "Christian Economic Networks" and by
Margrit Kennedy in "Interest and Inflation ...
http://www.maineprogressive.org/101998/usury.htm

Lack of Interest
Lack of Interest Can Be Positive by Larry Dansinger
http://www.maineprogressive.org/101998/usury.htm


5) (Sue) The King is in his Counting House...
---------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 08:56:48 +0930
From: sunet@... (Sue)
Subject: [ijccr] The King is in his Counting House...

>One of the reasons for more and more laws against banking
>and payments is because they are evil inherently. They
>mask the source of payments. They break the trust by
>breaking the business connection between all the peoples of
>the planet. We want nonrepudiable settlement yes but
>not to be walled into isolated cells (with only the prison
>warden able to see the entire movement of goods and
>services globally, over time.)
>Todd Boyle CPA  Kirkland WA 425-827-3107
>www.arapxml.net  AR/AP everywhere.

S: Hi to all. I 'run' an Incorporated LETS Group in South
Australia- I'm Secretary on a comittee with a few less
active co-members. We have inherited a 'membership-low'
group with healthy accumulated and saved $$$ bank balance-
this reminds me of 'our' country Australia; low population,
much stored resource.

I bring up children which is an 'Undocumented Trade'. I
don't go out and transact all that much except at
Markets, falling back on personal family and neighbor
support and 'trade'. Hence I don't know how wieldy the
System really is- right now I mostly contribute
administrative activity and ideas.

But my purpose below is to present my observations that in a
lot of ways LETS is totally different from money. Many don't
perceive this. For instance 'Management committees' in LETS
often make strange and self-defeating decisions based on
"fear of admin account going into the Red".

JCT: We've already discussed how silly this is and it's just
another case of what I call "riding the system backwards."
The LETS bicycle is a fine machine but there's no accounting
for the drivers. Others insist on no paper notes and every
transaction accounted for to end up broke. Others insist on
the same rate for everyone. Others don't want big
businesses like Coca Cola accepting their IOUs! Really. So
saying LETS don't work because some fail is like saying
autos don't work because some have accidents or drive drunk
or stupid.

S: A non-LETS friend and I made a model- it turns out you
CAN'T legitimately run an 'Admin account'. 'Admin' is the
collective or committee (the 'clearing-house'), something
like a Government, which facilitates trading, doing this for
and on behalf of the entire group. The facilitation is
delivered by offering limitless numbers of positive and
negative trade points to each member. Whenever a person
joins (or stays in) the group, the system actually gets
richer, because now theoretically the same number of points
can be exchanged for more and more stuff (skills, time,
resources).

JCT: And when everyone is on the same UNILETS database, the
system is RICHEST with trading for the MOST stuff.

S: One COULD symbolise this by giving EVERY member bonus
points when a new member joins!

JCT: Edgar Cahn's USA Timedollars could handle it in a
pinch. They would just recognize the scoring of a new member
as worth an Hour of volunteer time to the community. And
they don't worry about who is going to make the Timedollar
good later, they bet that the next generation will take
their parents' IOUs.

S: [I really don't see how having massive numbers of points
'in circulation' represents 'inflation' as some claim-
points are just symbolic; the only resources available to
the group at any time is: the sum of what members are
offering to share; unless one is obsessed with people
'returning to zero'] [I suggest that the 'value of zero'
rises and falls with the social health of the group
anyway...and besides there is probably a Pyramid of Need-
see another post...]

JCT: Don't even bother using the word "inflation" in a time
currency where next year's HOUR buys you back the same 60
minutes as this year's hour sold for.

I: I digress. When someone does something from the position
of 'Admin', LETS people routinely forget that there accrues
a positive benefit which returns energy to the group as
whole.

JCT: Which is why Timedollars USA networks can simply not
worry about anything when they have a 100% functional
system account to absorb all inputs and outputs until the
next generation gets in.

S: For instance if someone creates a newsletter; more often
than not 'Admin' gives them *30 and this gets recorded as
'Admin, -30*'. Collectives then freak out, get paralyzed,
and deduct the *** one way or another from the whole group
(via levies or transaction 'fees' or carrying a 'debit').
However, strangely, no one seems to record the INCOMING
benefit to the group resulting from the management's actions
(presuming they are well considered to promote the Group's
goals.) After all, LETS groups  usually state their twin
aims as encouraging exchange, AND offering an ecologically
sound, low consumption, non profit, socially enriched
community. A correct formula would be based on the
observation that the group does not just receive ONE
newsletter (worth *30); but in rather, the "'no. of people
who receive newsletter' x *30" is the appropriate
calculation... thus with 30 members, that's 900 points of
value received by group, for *30 contributed! No deficit
whatsoever and no need for panic and 'deductions'.

Trained in and using money, people sort- of- remember that
in every exchange, one person makes $$$, while their co-
trader walks off with goods worth the same amount as a
resource. Yet we are all conditioned to concentrate on the
loss aspect! I would prefer that LETS transactions were
recorded horizontally, showing flow of giving and receiving
over time, not based on the usual borrowed $$$ accounting
programs(computer) which list transactions in a column
vertically- reminding me of the King stacking up his coins
in the Counting House. Another 'point' I offer is that
instead of 'accumulating a deficit in points' when we have
received (usually recorded as NEGATIVE on the receiver's
tally) we COULD represent the points, or list the valued
goods received, as a POSITIVE- ie a positive figure which
represents the sum of the person's outstanding pledge to
return energy to the Community when able. Meanwhile the
person who overall has given more than received could be
recorded as having a negative pledge.

JCT: No need to register debts to the family as positives to
make anyone feel good. Honesty in accounting hurts no one.
So don't worry.

Extrapolating from this, the First World bears a
considerable positive pledge to the Third World, and we ALL
own a positive pledge towards our Planet Earth.., I notice
that in Samoa, money is literally melting. Perhaps it could
be said to be melting as a result of global warming! SJB

JCT: Don't worry. Be happy. When you get your world-wide
anti-slavery UNILETS account to pay off your interest-
bearing debts with while converting to interest-free debt
where all payments go against principle to eventually pay
off debt.

And thanks for some refreshing experiences.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:54:51 +0100
>From: ullern2040@... (Kris Ullern Stenseth)
>Subject: Re: confronting tyranny - book-presentation
>To: TURMEL@...

KUS: Hey John Turmel,
Would b good 2 see - with the presentation of "Confronting
tyranny" by Mike Rowbotham - where & how to easily aquire a
copy, and/or how to contact the author / e-mail address.
Great idea, not?

JCT: If you check the book report I did on him at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/rowtexts.htm you'll notice
I did not give him a good grade. Other than to detail well
how the present system malfunctions, as do many other books,
especially those of Major Clifford Douglas and Louis Even of
Social Credit, he does not detail how the future system will
function well and even knocked a world-wide UNILETS.

KUS: I found your site & file while searching for exactly
what I'm calling for here. Although the presentation looks
great & helpful, I dearly would like to know how to get the
book from outside UK - or even outside Brett's Cottage,
Norwich, where the book is reputed 2 b available. See my
point? And by the way, could u pls mail me Mr. Rowbothams e-
mail address, so I could ask him directly? Tnx & Love OK

JCT: I did a search of my archives and this is the best I
could find:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712699910/qid=
1039877976/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/026-0187759-5176410
might have it. Or
Jon Carpenter Publishing - Charlbury,  Oxfordshire, England
ISBN 1 897766 40 8

It's great reading but infuriatingly wrong, blaming it on
the control of credit rather than the exponential growth of
the debt.

Calling the problem "debt money" when "credit money" is just
as bad if there's interest, he ignores that the problem is
"interest on debt." Just too many errors to recommend to any
serious student of banking systems engineering.

All of Louis Even's stuff is pure treasure. Not the latest
crew of moles who took over his movement but Louis Even
himself. The man whose brand of social credits were the
inspiration for the LETS and UNILETS interest-free currency
software.

And of course, I discovered Shift B inflation without which
it is impossible to understand how the deathgamble works.

But Rowbotham? Sad to say, didn't pass his banking systems
engineering test.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:54:44 -0500 (EST)
>From: Peacebewyu@... <Jeff Fairhall>
>Subject: Re: [ijccr] TURMEL: #2 Popp goes the Riegel
John, Just wanted to offer that I read the Dr. Popp book,
and find it to be an excellent arguement for the
introduction and use of interest-free money and and
condemnation of usury and unjust fiat money. Jeff Fairhall
===

>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:41:07 -0500 (EST)
>From: Peacebewyu@... <Jeff Fairhall>
>Subject: [ijccr] Maniac v Turmel
Dear Cal,
I have followed the recent, ah, discussions between you and
John Turmel. While I don't condone your questioning of John
Turmel's reputation, I do want to chime in with a word of
support for your contributions to the ijccr discussion
group. I am not a world class engineer, designer of the
absolute solution to all matters related to money, or a
global leader in the acc movement, but I do subscribe to
this list and am working in this field.
Not everyone on this list has read all of the available
material, and there will be new people coming into the
discussion along the way, as I have recently. I have not
explored every link you have provided, but have found some
of what I have looked at to be most helpful and informative.
In particular, the Dr. Popp book Money, Bona Fide or Non
Bona Fide, is excellent, and I appreciate very much that you
provided access to this document, which I have uploaded to
my own site, http://www.geocities.com/communitycurrency
A Better Money System
Perhaps a reader would need to sift through a little bit of
chaff to find the kernals of truth in your links, but I'm
grateful that you make the effort. I don't remember the bit
about cookies, but I believe that Mr Turmel, if he refreshed
his memory, would offer a less tentative affirmation of the
correctness of the Popp book.
Sincerely yours, Jeff Fairhall

JCT: It's not refresh my memory but check out his book. You
have some company in your questions. Marc Gauvin was what I
call an "instant" convertee. Marc had
been at Carleton in my bridge-playing days and I met him
again back in 1982 during the five years I was picketing the
Bank of Canada every Thursday when they set the new death-
gamble rate. By the next week, he'd joined us on the picket
line. Before the end of the year, he'd run for Mayor of
Ottawa on an interest-free money platform.

My only criticism of Marc is his use of intellectual tour de
force. You know he's going to land on the right answer but
some of his flights of esoteric rhetoric have even been hard
for me to stay with. I have no doubt that with Tom Kennedy
handling the chips in the cage and Marc handling the
philosophers unsure of how the chips can be so simple, there
is no need for me to participate for a while.

>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:01:12 +0100
>From: gauvin@... (Marc)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: #2 Popp goes the Riegel
Dear John,
The Popp link chapter 12 Inflation Deflation shows the level
of understanding. I believe that Popp is sincere in his
belief but just doesn't have the technique to be a true
visionary. In his mind, inflation remains a function of
units of money in circulation in excess of what is needed to
buy according to 'reasonable prices' which he doesn't
define.

JCT: So he's an Abolitionist who thinks inflation is Shift
B? Too bad. But when they accept Shift A, watch out.

MG: The question of inflation is so simple a child could
understand it. The flaw I have discovered in my attempts to
convince economists that John's model is correct and have
actually been able to correct in the more honest ones is the
following sleight of flawed thinking, it starts with this
truth:

>>Since anything of value can be used to generate money and
the world is full of an incalculable amount of wealth, then
there is never a shortage of money. <<

Although logically and theoratically true, at the time of
saying it they ignore the fact that there is a sequential
process for the creation of legal tender, money be it M1, M2
or Mn.  In another chapter of their learning they even
recognize the exact process as John and I and everyone does,
again taught seperately and independently of the rest of the
system.

That is why when you say that there is not enough money to
pay the debt, their subconscious bounces up with the rule
money is never short because there is an infinite amount of
wealth out there.

Because it is theoretically correct to say that there is as
much potential money as there is wealth, any money must
first be put into circulation in order for it to function as
a medium of exchange. In the mind of economists these two
concepts are never united. However, if you sequence events
correctly, you come to realize that there is always less
created/printed/issued money in circulation than there is
potential money in aggregate wealth waiting to be
printed/created/issued.

Thus, inflation is the play between the amount of money in
circulation (principal), the debt (always greater i.e.
principal + interest) and the wealth already accounted for
in previous wealth put up as collateral but not including
the vast remaining wealth in the world.  The economist is
not trained to integrate system components into a whole and
see how they operate as a single functionning system, thus
he is unable to know the difference between potential money
and issued money, yet he can learn how money is created and
never see what it is about the money created that
distinguishes it from the potential stuff.

Time for a joke:  What is the difference between an
economist and a parrot?
The parrot repeats things correctly.

JCT: It must be tough these days being an economist for the
orthodox money system that's breaking down with so many now
knowledgeable unorthodox money system devotees around.

Still, I don't have the time to join these discussions for
the next little while as there have been some huge Canadian
medpot decisions in the past month which makes all my
upcoming motions on my Number #2 political program,
prohibition of cannabis, possible coups de grace. I haven't
been posting those developments to my monetary reform
groups, other than to [turmel] which gets everything they
can be found at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/messages

So Marc, since you seem up to defending the cause while I
have to devote time elsewhere, I suggest you join the
International Journal of Community Currency yahoogroup and
then you'll be able to cover for me in dealing with
questions raised here directly. Send a blank email to
ijccr-subscribe@yahoogroups.com or visit and join at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/ijccr

I'm passing on your latest commentary on the Andrew Lowd
thesis to get things started.

>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:06:43 +0100
>From: gauvin@... (Marc)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Andrew Lowd's Economic Thesis
>To: turmel@yahoogroups.com

The problem with economists is that they re-define terms
without having fully understood the original meaning and/or
the scope of that meaning.

For example, the concept of job as in get a job or find
work, is only meaningful if you break up another perfectly
good concept into little pieces.  The other concept is
energy/time = work, if we accept this definition of work and
throw out the work = job concept, everything would be
clearer, we wouldn't be asking to be given a job we would be
sorting out what it is that is preventing us from expending
our Gaia given energy/time the way we see fit as per our
relationship with others. I threw out the job = work a long
time ago, and haven't missed it since.

The other concept that is absurd is the idea of excessive
interest.  There is no such thing as excessive interest
because interest is one thing and that thing is a
mathematical construct called a function.  It is absurd to
say that interest is excessive when all interest functions
approach infinity, and you can't get to the excessive part
without going through the acceptable part of the curve.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

http://www.andrewlowd.com/thesis/

JCT: Cal Schindel refers us to another large thesis
advancing his beliefs. I haven't the time to read the whole
thing but the chapter on interest positive feedback is the
crux. I've selected some passages:

AL: CHAPTER TWO
ECONOMIC THEORY OF MONEY

Just as pure copper was too soft for shields until it was
combined with tin to form the alloy bronze, so is it likely
that without alloying money with other substances, money
will not be practical to implement.

JCT: How about alloying money with paper which is practical
to implement? Actually, Most original LETS alloyed their
money with computer blips first. Always worth time.

AL: So what is money? It is simply the good whose intrinsic
value to its possessor is found in its ability to be
exchanged for other goods.

JCT: I don't like the use of the word "the good" whose
"intrinsic value" makes it exchangeable. Is an IOU for grain
at the King's storehouse a "good?" No. So though money may
be a "good of intrinsic value, money may also be a "promise"
of no intrinsic value that's just as good.

AL: Former Belgian Central Bank executive Bernard Lietaer
defines money as follows: "Money is an agreement, within a
community, to use something as a means of payment."7

JCT: It's a hard definition for a mere energy-based poker
chip.

AL: Lastly, any money system requires something to be a
medium of exchange. It can be shells, service credits, or
silk; cows, coins, or computer credit. The medium chosen
should merely be quantifiable and divisible into fine enough
elements to sustain all transactions between all
participating members of the community. If it cannot be used
for all transactions, a second currency will be necessary
for the unaddressed transactions. In either case, the choice
of the medium will have dramatic impact on the nature of
market interactions.

JCT: I don't understand why it can't be used for all
transaction of the members of the system? Who would deny
that the poker chip is worth what it says it's worth in the
cage. Who would refuse such a token?

AL: Heavy exchange media such as animals or metals encourage
local economies to become more self-sufficient than
lightweight ones, for which the expense involved in
transferring great value across long distance is much lower.
Each medium possesses its own specific features advantageous
to certain purposes and disadvantageous to others.

JCT: This is unnecessarily complicated for poker chips.

AL: Further, the choice of medium could serve to include or
exclude individuals from the market economy.

JCT: Yes, money could be used as a control system. The
question of why one would want to though...

AL: Money is issued by someone to acknowledge a transfer of
value from someone else, who uses it to obtain value from
someone else, and so forth until eventually it is presented
for redemption by its creator for something of value.

For mutual credit systems such as LETS, money is created
simultaneously as a debit for one person and a credit for
another at the time of a transaction.15 The money stock, if
measured as the number of credits available for redemption
within the system, grows every time someone with a debit
balance makes a purchase from someone with a credit balance
and shrinks every time someone with a credit balance
purchases from someone with a debit balance.

Whereas in a paper- or commodity-based currency, the payment
of all debts would not affect the size of the money stock
since the currency is not retired from circulation, in a
system where money is created from lines of credit, whether
limited by the central regulating authority of the monetary
system or by the other members of the system, the payment of
all debts could render the measured money stock as zero.

JCT: Andrew has focused on a point I strive to stress. A
LETS where the only way one member can get into the positive
is for another member to get into the negative is not as
efficient as a stimulus to trade as a LETS where some
entities can get way into the negative so that the majority
of the members can be in the positive.
Eg: The system opens a LETS store where goods may be
deposited and its account goes way negative balanced by the
accounts of members going positive.
Still, this is a psychological problem and a psychological
solution.

AL: Basing monetary velocity upon the sum of all extended
credit lines would presume that individuals on average plan
to fully use their credit on some occasions, and so this
measure too is troublesome, especially since some mutual
credit systems do not define bounds for individuals' credit.
If money is created for a one-time use and then redeemed,
and for future uses more money is created and then redeemed
by the issuer, velocity has no meaning: there is no factor
affecting the individual's choice to use this money as a
transaction medium instead of as a store of value or
interest-bearing investment.

JCT: Okay, nice conclusion. In a casino, it doesn't matter
if a table that will see $10,000 in betting volume over an
evening's game has $1000 in chips on the table that are all
used on average 10 times or whether everyone all started
with a total of $10,000 in chips with which to bet their
$10,000 in chips for a volume of 1. But as Andrew noted,
velocity has no meaning when each player has an infinite
reserve to count on. He can use all new chips or he can
reuse his old chips. Doesn't matter.

TB: One other element ought to be considered with regards to
why monetary velocity is a very troubling measure to apply
to alternative currencies competing with a dominant
currency. Hayek puts it best when he says:
In a multi-currency system there is no such thing as the
magnitude of the demand for money. There will be different
demands for the different kinds of currency; but since these
different currencies will not be perfect substitutes, these
distinct demands cannot be added up into a single sum.16

JCT: Okay, the big problem. UNILETS catering to a whole
world with totally stable HOUR as currency is a perfect
token and these distinct demands now can be added up.

AL:.. Hence two factors are necessary for money creation: a
buyer, who issues it, and a seller, who accepts it."

JCT: How about "a cashier who issues it and the depositor
who accepts it."

TB: If no person were to accept it, an issue would fail.

JCT: When the Argentinian farmers declared that their
personal IOUs for a tonne of wheat was worth a tonne of
wheat, it didn't need anyone else's input or willingness to
accept the token. Only an honest public evaluation of the
backing of the token was necessary.

TB: Acceptance is a primary element which deserves
consideration, as does the predictability of the money's
value.

JCT: Acceptance is not relevant when the token is a receipt
for collateral. What does the Argentinian farmer care if
someone won't take as valid his receipt for a tonne of
wheat? Most other do. And why would this one not?

TB: In fact, questions of acceptance may help explain
monetary velocity. Local currency may circulate faster than
federal currency not out of any altruistic love or value for
the community, but because individuals consider federal
currency better from an acceptance standpoint since it can
be used anywhere, so they use will their local currency
whenever possible, holding their federal currency for places
and times where local currency is not accepted.

JCT: Right. Proving the adage "bad currency drives out
the good" wrong when it's the good no-interest-currency
driving out bad interest-bearing currency.
Sure, it's not if your premise is that the money that
enslaves your neighbor to get you some usury is good and
money that does not increase by other's enslavement is bad.
But otherwise, that's what I call the Sparta effect. Using
local currency allows people to leave their federal money in
the bank paying off their interest-bearing debts.

AL: This would suggest that they give federal currency more
intrinsic value at the prevailing exchange rate. Gresham's
law that bad money drives out good money should not apply to
two fiat currencies, as the only reason that one money
should drive out another money is if that second money has a
greater use value elsewhere. Without a recoinage or trading
mechanism by which one can convert one money to another at
one rate and convert back at another rate, profiting off the
difference, Gresham's law is really non-applicable. Silver
quarters left circulation not because the zinc-filled
quarters were "bad money" but because, with 0.18 troy ounces
of silver each, silver quarters were worth more as silver
than as quarters even when silver traded at $2 per ounce.
All other things being equal, persons will prefer monies
with predictable value. Predictability has as its opponent
uncertainty, and uncertainty in contracts can lead to a
massive reduction in the level of economic activity. One
source of uncertainty comes if one does not know if others
are willing to accept it in exchange. If persons cannot be
reasonably certain as to the value of their money, they will
desire at all times to hedge against loss unless they are
extreme risk-takers.

JCT: "If persons reasonably certain as to the value of their
IOU for a Tonne of Wheat..." can't happen. "For their HOUR"
can't happen.

AL: As a result, they may choose to not engage in economic
activities that would previously have been marginally
profitable. Hedging against fluctuations in value can be
quite costly, both to a community's total economic output
and to individuals who miss opportunities to invest
prudently because of their hedging activities. Thus, given
the choice, such individuals will prefer a money of
predictable value.

JCT: Sure the present system costs efficiency.

AL: This is not to say that they will demand one of stable
value. Their choice of currency could be found to depreciate
by fifteen per cent per annum, but if it did so in a manner
around which they could plan their lives, such that they
could reflect that depreciation in their contracting for
future goods and services, it could be preferred to a
currency with little or no expected long-run depreciation
but large uncertain swings in value. It seems reasonable to
expect that, given a choice between a fully stable money and
one whose value depreciates in general accordance with a
known schedule, persons would prefer the former ceteris
paribus unless they expected to make additional profit by
exploiting a discrepancy in financial savvy between
themselves and others. Those who know themselves to be less
financially savvy would be all the more inclined to choose a
stable rather than merely predictable money for the same
reason.

Caution Against Misplaced Precision
We must be careful when judging from external appearances as
to which elements should be considered money, much like
Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart who said he could not
provide an exact definition for pornography but he knew it
when he saw it. The problem with any exact and precise
definition for a human creation is that human ingenuity has
a way of blurring the lines. For example, stored value cards
should not be judged money if they are not accepted for
services or goods from multiple independent individuals or
businesses. Thus the stored value cards being created by
banks for parents to give their children in order to
regulate their spending habits are money since they tend to
be accepted wherever credit cards are welcome. Prepaid phone
cards which permit a certain quantity of telephone service
or gift cards to a local video rental franchise are not
money since they are, like most gift certificates, accepted
by only the issuing company for services albeit perhaps
multiple transactions; they are merely IOUs marking that
future services have been contracted for and must merely be
fulfilled; all money transactions have previously taken
place and no more money will change hands, unlike the other
stored value cards earlier mentioned. Yet both can assume
the same appearance nowadays.

JCT: All it takes is Linton's Smartcard device to permit me
to transfer some of my phone credits to someone else and
it's then money because it can be transferred. Once it can
be transferable, it's money. Right?

AL: A Value Governor
To introduce economic efficiency into a monetary system, it
is common to have a central co-ordinator watching over the
production and distribution of the money, and working to
guarantee its value.

JCT: While the cashier in the cage has no interest in
watching over production at all and just distributes tokens
as fast as production of collateral dictates.

AL: Although some non-fungible monies, like cattle, may not
require or be best suited to such a co-ordinator but rather
have their values established in the middle of the exchange
process, an established and trustworthy organisation or
individual protecting the value of the money would reduce
greatly the cost of transacting by standardising one
element: the value of the exchange medium.18

JCT: There is no need to have any one individual "protecting
the value of the money. The farmer saying "Here's an IOU for
a tonne of wheat" is enough for me.

AL: That co-ordinator would be expected to receive an income
from his labours since he is, if properly performing his
duties, performing a service to all the community members.

JCT: Sure, someone needs to do the job and that person
should be paid with a service charge for their time, not
money being paid for its time and they get a cut.

AL: In ancient days, it was commonly the sovereign's or the
goldsmith's assumed responsibility; the measuring, valuing,
and stamping of gold or silver to certify its worth required
a massive capital investment in metalworking tools, and
therefore could not easily be done by all. Nowadays that
function is assumed by different persons in different
monies. The government guarantees federal currency and
MasterCard and Visa authorise credit card transactions;
stores require photo identification to accept cheques while
every member of a LETS has at least theoretical access to
the system of accounts by which they can make their
independent decisions whether to deal with other members or
not. In all these cases, however, it can be seen that it is
generally given to the issuer of the money to ensure its
value; differences arise because of the varying rules
governing who is permitted to issue money across systems and
who bears the risk in the event that the person receiving
the goods from the vendor does not make good on their
commitment to transfer value....

The one element preventing credit cards from being pure
money is the ability to carry a debt balance. In this
situation, credit cards are not used as transactions money
since intentionally deferring payment is not a necessary
function of, and even a hindrance to, exchange, for which
decision the credit card company rewards its users with
finance charges. Nonetheless, credit card companies have
been much more successful issuers of money than many
persons. Their alloying of a medium of exchange with a
program that is profitable for them works, and works quite
well.

JCT: Permit the credit card to carry a debit balance too
without any interest and you've described your UNILETS card.

AL:.. To maintain the stability of that currency's
value can require a great deal of effort in fighting off
inflationary tendencies...

JCT: For some, it seems hard to envision poker chips with
inflationary tendencies and yet for others, like me, it's
impossible to envision without stealing from the cage.

A currency board can be one way to establish a measure of
trust and value in a currency.

JCT: And reading a signed note saying "Worth 1 Tonne of
collateral" is another.

AL: The issuer guarantees to
exchange the currency which they are placing into
circulation at a fixed conversion ratio with another
currency on reserve whose value is supposed to be relatively
stable. Potential users of the issuer's currency can then
display confidence that if the currency's purchasing power
in the region of its acceptance is to fall, they can
exchange that currency without suffering a huge loss from
devaluation. This declaration of value can turn into a self-
fulfilling prophecy if the issuer maintains enough of the
reserve currency to meet all tests of confidence in the
system. It is not always undertaken, however, because the
restrictions on issuance can prevent issuers from monetising
debt and paying for expenses incurred through an inflation
tax.

JCT: Never thought poker chips could become so complicated.
Seems almost as hard to run as John Pozzi's Global Resources
Bank where everyone keeps concluding "sounds like a LETS but
hard to understand." I have to skip discussion about the
stability of a note "worth a tonne of grain."

AL: While Judaism and Christianity are opposed to usury,
Jewish and Christian scholars have defined usury as unlawful
interest, referencing certain prohibitions against specific
types of interest charges.30 By redefining usury as any
interest charge at all, modern writers do a grave disservice
to lenders, ignoring the risks they take and costs they
incur in lending their capital to others. Gesell for one
wrote a carefully constructed story in which it appears that
the charging of interest is villainous and exploitative; a
careful reading and thinking reveals several reasons why an
interest charge is not only reasonable, but necessary for
lending to occur.31

JCT: And even the fact millions of people starve to death
because usury is chosen rather than service charge, despite
those millions suffering death and poverty, Andrew concludes
it's reasonable and "necessary for lending to occur."
I guess he never caught the premise everyone owns their own
LETS account that will lend them their money so why would
anyone be looking to lend some from a usurer?

AL:L There are four main factors which explain why interest is
charged...

JCT: Of course, all the money-lenders' pretexts. We'll
ignore the billions of humans suffering from usury's
negative effects to consider all the great reasons to keep
them enslaved.

AL: Contract design and alternative opportunities for
investment ensure that interest is a necessary concept while
inflation and protection against default determine the level
of interest; their relevance is best presented in reverse
order.

If lenders were always fully assured of the complete return
of their money, one component of interest would drop out.
Called a risk premium, it is a calculation of the likeliness
that the borrower will default on his loan and fail to repay
the lender, either by purposely cheating the lender with no
intention of repayment or fiscal negligence, spending what
he cannot afford to repay. If a lender makes 105 loans of
$1,000 each, and only 100 borrowers repay him, he has lost
$5,000 and will not choose to remain in business long unless
he has a strong altruistic streak or is permitted to charge
interest. At five percent interest, he makes up for his
losses and breaks even, charging $50 per person for the
convenience of having additional money resources available
to them temporarily.32 The lender would probably rather not
have to charge that risk premium, preferring to lend solely
to persons who are guaranteed to repay, a fact which led one
man to quip that "Banks only lend you money when you don't
need it." Not possessing perfect awareness of who will repay
and who will not necessitates an interest charge. It is the
ease and availability of unsecured credit from credit card
companies which accounts for the high interest premiums they
charge.

The second component of interest is inflation. Local
currency activists' disgust with the inflation tax as a way
of monetising debt must be separated from their view of
charging interest. The first is a government action while
the second is a response to compensate for that inflation.
The two must be separately considered in their proper scopes
and proper places; to throw a fit at your mother for feeding
you cod liver oil after you caught cold from playing in the
rain would be to put the blame in the wrong place. If
inflation is at three percent a year and a lender charges
zero percent interest, he will automatically lose three
percent of the value of his money each year even if all his
borrowers are perfectly trustworthy. If he charges three
percent interest, he will appear to be making three percent
on his money but the real interest he receives after
considering actual inflation will be zero. Now if inflation
turns out to be higher than expected, he may have a negative
real rate of return even though he is charging a positive
nominal rate of interest. This happened in the 1970s when
inflation unexpectedly surged and lenders were locked into
contracts with low nominal rates of interest. This is a risk
that lenders must take unless they and the borrowers agree
to adjustable-rate loans. Just as we would not wish the
borrower to suffer by facing exorbitant rates of interest,
so too can we never ethically insist that the lender suffer
harm or loss when an alternative to compensate him justly
for his loss exists. Thus protection against expected
inflation must join protection against default in making up
the size of interest charged.

Interest is warranted conceptually by two items, the first
of which is the availability of unfunded alternatives. By
declaring a willingness to pay a positive return on an
investment, a borrower states that his project is worthy of
the allocation of scarce resources. Some local currency
activists bemoan the scarcity of federal currency, claiming
that more could and should be printed and easily
distributed, forgetting temporarily that such a unilateral
action on the part of the government would only result in
increased inflation, which would make the argument for
charging interest all the stronger. Further, though some
attempt to polarise the debate along wealth lines by
declaring that individuals with small real wealth deserve a
break from massive corporations with huge vaults bulging
with money, they ignore temporarily that banks, though
having lots of money, are accountable to every individual
depositor, many of whom may possess as little wealth as the
dispossessed examples who are supposed to be deserving of a
break, and cannot in good faith give out their money with
abandon. Unfortunately for them, there is only one way out
of this combination which, though it is growing more common
in the high tech industry, has yet to catch on in the
consumer loan business.

The potential solution is to consider contracts such as
Islamic banks use. Prohibited from charging interest (riba)
by divine command, they use a loan scheme based on the
Murabaha lending model. As one writer noted, "In practice
Morabaha financing is similar to normal cash flow based and
security collateralized financing."33 The lender provides
the buyer with a commodity, disclosing the cost he incurs
and adding a certain percentage or lump sum for profit on
top, resembling the concept of simple interest. However,
since the lender engages in trade, this is seen as a real
risk, making the additional mark-up legitimate under Islamic
law. Under Islamic law, capital is not regarded as costless
but neither is it given a prior claim on productivity by
means of interest. Profit-sharing (mudaraba) is another
common method wherein the borrower agrees to return the
borrowed principal and a pre-agreed proportional profit
share, though it is not fully resolved within the Islamic
community as to whether profit-sharing is the best resource-
allocating mechanism. Further, Islamic banks can purchase
properties and resell them later at a higher price through
deferred-payment sales (bai'muajjal), one way of handling
mortgages. Islamic law declares this not to be interest,
since it is a business transaction and not a financial one,
though this looks like an end-run around the question.34

JCT: If Islamic banks lend out their depositors' funds,
where does the original money come from? Islamic banks are
piggy bank models and not casino-style creationary models.
Islamic banks are splashing in the pool with the other fish
while the problem's at the pumphouse where they demand the
return of 11 gallons for every 10 gallons of liquidity
issued.

AL: Profit-sharing has also been observed in the high
technology sector...

JCT: And profit sharing's only more splashing in the pool.

Following the resolution of these questions, the
implementation of contracts with fixed mark-ups or profit-
sharing elements could assuage both the abolitionist's
demand for the death of interest and the businessman's need
to make a living.

JCT: There is no way to assuage the Abolitionist's demand
for an end to debt slavery other than complying.

AL: As a result of all this, we can safely say that interest is
not an essential element of money proper; it is at least
theoretically possible to conjecture a society without
inflation, with complete trustworthiness and altruism, and
equitable profit-sharing contracts. However, it is just as
theoretically possible to conjecture a successful economy
based purely on socialism; both work as long as no human
possesses impulses toward self-love and self-preservation,
the matched team of impulses which have defined humankind
from its start. Therefore, absent a redesign of the human
will or the adoption of profit-sharing contracts as standard
operating procedure in the Western world, interest is the
best solution to ensure allocation of money towards useful
and productive ends.

JCT: So according the Andrew Lowd's analysis, the best
solution is to continue subjecting borrowers to the
requirement they repay 11 when the bank-pump-house only
issued 10. Andrew completely missed the whole point about
usury... Of course, he defined usury as "unlawful" interest
rather than interest on sterile rather than fertile specie
as Grand-dad Adelard Turmel noted: "Money has no babies."

Of course, despite belonging to the ijccr group, he's read
Friedrich A. Hayek, Bernard Lietaer, Hayek, Lawrence Hall
Grinstead, Willis Wissler, Thomas H. Greco, Jr., E. C.
Riegel, Jane Jacobs, Frederick Nymeyer but never attempted
the advanced banking systems engineering analysis at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

So the world's only Professor of Banking Systems Engineering
has to grade Andrew Lowd's thesis an "F" since he didn't see
the solution to the debts of billions by perceiving the
cause.

And Cal Schindel's referral is another waste of time.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 11:28:58 +0100
>From: gauvin@... (marc)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Popp goes the Riegel

MG: Dear John,
This Popp and Riegel stuff is pages and pages of time
wasting when the starving kids need to eat.

JCT: Though my archives are in boxes, I believe Dr. Popp
wrote a beautiful book that inspired me in my early years
that had something to do with interest-free credit at God's
Cookie Jar or something like that, and to link him with
Riegel who thinks we can live with interest is too much an
insult to Abolitionists to let stand.

But I didn"t send it, Cal Schindel did to the ijccr
International Journal of Community Currency Research and I
had to point out what I thought was the trash from the good
stuff, that's all. Coming from a guy who had referred people
to Bill Ryan made me leerier than normal.

MG: False credibility creates the false impression,
that because the guy went to Princeton and if you read the
stuff and there is nothing for you at the end.  Then the
insiduous implicit high browing argument is that the reason
you found nothing in the argument is the very same reason
why you didn't go to Princeton and he did. Now, if it so
happens that you did go to Princeton and you also find
little value in the work, then telling the world that Popp
and Riegel are charlatans discredits you indirectly because
who wants to say they went to the same school as a bunch of
intellectually dishonest, irresponsible, time wasting
theorists that like hearing and reading their words more
than they like having discovered something useful.

JCT: Luckily, I'm better that Popp is good, Riegel is bad.
But suggesting people read the bad is a waste of time. I'll
glad you did and I didn't since I trust your judgment. But
what about the Popp site? Was he an Abolitionist?

MG: The net is designed for short, concise, powerful
messages that then may be followed by more elaborate stuff.
The net is getting smarter every day, let's go for it with
quick clean and sharp thinking and no more of this long
winded crap. Marc

JCT: Again, this is Cal Schindel's idea of what he thinks
the learned in the monetary reform movement should be
reading. Is Popp as bad as Riegel or was he good? I've no
time to check and now you have do the man right if he was an
early Abolitionist. At least, I bet this time won't be
wasted.

>Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:06:10 -0600
>From: maniac@... (Maniac)
>Subject: [ijccr] Message for John Turmel
>To: ijccr@yahoogroups.com (IJCCR)

CS: John, the reason I send links to material of interest to
members of the International Journal for Community Currency
Research mail list is because I have always assumed that
these 168 persons have good intelligence and ability to
reason and understand. I have grown accustomed to expect
discernment from this group.

JCT: Are you kidding? Most readers evince confusion and
admit to be students of money's engineering and they're
expected to know the good from the bad? Here you are still
offering something suggesting there can be better than zero
feedback. There can be better than the best by the engineer?

CS: The reason I send people to read statements made by
William Ryan is because he has been with the social credit
movement for a long time, and I believe Ryan sometimes has
valid things to say.

JCT: Ryan has not been with the Social Credit movement. Ryan
is derided in the Social Credit movement, both the English
and the French. Bill Ryan is the guy who said that
"Timedollars thus benignly encumber labor in a form of
cooperative slavery." If you do a search for "Bill Ryan" and
"Turmel" and "Social Credit" you'll come up with some of our
arguments and I've posted some at:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/ryan1.htm

CS: It is the same reason I sometimes refer people to things
you have on your site. The same reasoning applies when
sometimes I forward well written material that I do not
agree with.

JCT: Everything on my site is scientifically right. No
errors. Zero feedback is stablest. Biggest with everyone
together is best. What's hard?

JCT: But referring to someone who has some right and much
wrong induces error in the movement. Thanks for the chance
to err and for the chance for Marc to waste his time
checking out your suggestions.

CS: Just because something was written 50 years ago, that
fact alone does not render it invalid.

JCT: That's not the issue here. I know lots of good old
stuff and it's mostly the Social Credit and Technocracy
writings that pass muster. Few score an A but you've managed
to refer us to some "F"s.

CS: I expect intelligence and discernment.

JCT: Ditto. Why did you not discern that Popp offered zero
feedback leading to zero inflation to contend with and the
Riegel's model still had inflation?
The point is that when you get stuff on banking from Turmel,
you can bet on it being right or I'll say it's wrong. When
we get stuff from Cal, we can't bet. You send bad stuff too.
Thanks.

CS: Now, John, do you remember what Todd Boyle posted about
reputation brokerage? Those are lines of thought that apply
to community currency systems.

JCT: I've explained banking systems engineering with poker
chips, you explain to my cashier how Todd Boyle's
"reputation brokerage" is going to affect our tokens.

CS: If you checked your reputation, should there be a
reputation brokerage, I expect that you would discover a
close approximation to the percentage of votes you have won
in the 50 plus elections you have entered.

JCT: If you think that all those losses in stacked elections
to get my message about interest-free currencies out has a
bearing on the integrity of my reputation in banking systems
engineering, you should have told the UN before they invited
me to make the Keynote speech introducing the UNILETS time-
based currency resolution C6 to Governments into the
Millennium Declaration. Throw in my Guinness Record and
other saving reforms and I'm not too worried about no
respect from people who think losing stacked elections is a
mark against my reputation.

CS: John, I appreciate your libertarian attitude and agree
that people should have the freedom to self medicate, but
your presentations could use some polish.
Sincerely, Cal Schindel

JCT: My presentations are reports of combat. Sorry if you'd
prefer something better than reality.

My point is that if you keep referring us to monetary reform
bums like Riegel and Ryan, you'll soon get the reputation
you think my election losses have given me of
untrustworthiness. At this point, since you have not evinced
any understanding of true Shift B inflation going on, what
do you want me to say?

I've been friendly and courteous while you were learning but
now that you think you know and think you have some
reputation to refer us to things you think are important,
expect to get beat up if you want to refer us to bums now
that in you're in the big leagues.

There aren't many people in the world whose verdict of
"crap" I'd bet on sight unseen. That's why I'm calling him
on backing up any such allegations about Dr. Popp.

And if you can't find us writings that are correct, the
least you can do is point out to others who are less
knowledgable and just learning the mistakes.

You show us some intelligence and discernment from now on.
I'd appreciate you get some explanations out of Ryan to some
of points he could never answer in our debate. He'd mouth
off and then run away and never face the point. I admit it
was great fun slapping his brain around in front of a crowd
which is why I'm amazed that you could be impressed enough
with him to refer him to one of the most august forums on
interest-free currencies on the net.

Actually, your ignorance about certain effects about
interest indicates that you, like so many philophers, have
not deigned to actually play the mort-gage game that I've
described at my
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm so that you
may gain an understanding which, like John Von Neumann said,
"arises in a more elementary fashion in the theory of
games."

You must be wondering how I can be so certain you never
actual played the game, you just presumed you understood the
process from reading it and never actually benefited from
the input of the others in the game.

There is nothing more powerful than the mort-gage model to
grasp the consequences of the death-gamble. You cannot have
experienced it without having played the game. I can tell
by your weaknesses and errors.

Play the game, do your homework, and you'll never again
refer us to stuff you can't bet is right ever again.

And finally, Cal refered us to Andrew Lowd's thesis at
http://www.andrewlowd.com/thesis/ so I'll go give it a look
in my next post.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: Keep in mind that as far as we know, Cal Schindel
thinks inflation is Shift A, too much money, and evinces no
awareness of Shift B, too little collateral after
foreclosure.

>Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:00:46 -0600
>From: maniac@... (Maniac) [Cal Schindel]
>Subject: [ijccr] Riegel and Popp Books Digitized

CS: I have digitized the EC Riegel book: Flight From
Inflation, The Monetary Alternative (86 pages, with five
images; about 875kb):
http://www.micro-mania.net/maniac/Riegel/Riegel_Inflation.doc
Word Document; 35 pages. Reigle: The New Approach to Freedom
<http://www.micro-mania.net/maniac/Riegel/Riegel_Freedom.doc>
250 Kb Compare to the Dr Popp document 440 Kb; the three
items dovetail.
<http://www.micro-mania.net/maniac/Popp/Popp.doc>

JCT: I remember reading both Popp and Riegel. A very long
time ago. If I remember correctly, Popp was for interest-
free banking and Riegel didn't know about it at all.
Did Riegel evince any awareness of the one malfunctioning
positive feedback loop in the financial circuitry?
Did Popp as I think remember?

CS: I recommend the Star Downloader for anyone working with
a phone modem and getting files of one half megabyte or
larger. Star Downloader breaks the stream in four parts and
reassembles to where-ever you designate in your computer. It
typically saves 25% to 50% in downloading time.
<http://www.stardownloader.com>

JCT: Why are you referring people to these guys on
inflation. I've settled forever for anyone with any kind of
science background that it isn't Shift A, it's Shift B.
That's why the Bishop of Worcester wrote in his book Grace
and Mortgage that John K. Galbraith and all the world's
economists were wrong in thinking that interest fights
inflation when John The Engineer proved interest causes
inflation by Shift B foreclosure.

So Cal, what is Riegel teaching that needs to be considered
that I haven't settled?

Same for Popp. Nice to send us scurrying around the net to
verify stuff we know but sending us verify stuff that's
wrong is a disservice to the group.

So again, Cal, I put you on the spot. What does Riegel have
to say about inflation that you think is important to the
real world?

CS: These sites from Andrew Lowd
<http://www.andrewlowd.com/thesis> and Dave Corum should
also be of interest:
<http://www.worldslaves.citymax.com/page/page/201552.htm>

JCT: Haven't had time to go look. Do they agree with the
advanced engineering analysis presented at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm or are they
wrong?

Just tell us whether you're sending us there because you
agree they're right or you disagree they're wrong. If Popp
wrote the "Cookie" something, he's a good one. But again,
Riegel I remember as an "F" in my grading system.


--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

>Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:44:15 +0200
>From: abrams@... (Ishay)
>Subject: [turmel] LETS taxes

I've been reading a lot about the creditos and other forms
of community currency so succesful in argentina. My question
is this: does the IRS down there check on the trueque clubs
or in other words if you make a deal in creditos do you have
to pay income tax or VAT and if so can you pay these taxes
with creditos too? please note that i am not talking about
municipal taxes or government bonds but about taxes on trade
and employment in the framework of the trueque clubs.
Ishay
Israel

JCT: First point, even if they do not accept trueque dollars
in payment of taxes on increased trade, other benefits
overwhelm having to pay the increased taxes in cash anyway.

If you can pay all your taxes with your own personal
currency, then all your problems are solved.

If you can only pay your municipal taxes with credits for
your time at labor, it frees up more federal money to pay
federal taxes with.

But even if you can't pay any of your taxes with Greenmoney,
as is the case in Canada, there is still great benefit.

Take someone who lives paycheck to paycheck providing for
the family. Should they accept an extra $3,000 in Greenmoney
earnings and owe an extra $1,000 in federal money taxes, by
spending the $3,000 in Greenmoney rather than the $3,000 in
the federal cash account, they free up that $3,000 with
which to pay the extra $1,000 in tax and $2,000 with which
to pay down any interest-bearing debt.

Every time you replace using cash with a note for your
labor, you save interest. And the savings are huge.

LETS is not a tax-evasion system, it's a debt-service
evasions system.

So no federal governments accept personal time-credits. Yet.
Whichever does first, I'll feel like moving.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885

JCT: Justice Lederman handed down his decision on Jan 9
2003. The victory made all the news:

>From: http://www.globeandmail.com,
>Thursday, January 9, 2003

G&M:Ontario court strikes down Ottawa's medical pot rules
Canadian Press

Toronto - A group of seriously ill people has won the latest
battle in an ongoing war with Ottawa over a federal scheme
to permit the use of medical marijuana that the patients say
violates their constitutional rights. An Ontario judge
agreed Thursday that the federal government's Medical
Marijuana Access Regulations are unconstitutional because
they prevent more deserving people from exemption than they
permit. The ruling from Superior Court Justice Sidney
Lederman is binding on lower courts and will likely wreak
further havoc on the laws in Canada that make possession of
marijuana illegal, said lawyer Alan Young.

JCT: The MMAR was declared unconstitutional. No word on
whether the CDSA was too.

<cut from CP article>: "We sued the government, saying their
regulatory regime for medical people was unsound," Mr. Young
said. "The judge agreed, saying they have six months to
address it or they lose the law."<endofcut>

JCT: Looks like Alan got the government another 6 months to
try to correct their mistake when I wanted to argue they had
run out of time.

G&M: "It's another nail in the coffin, and this is a big
nail," an elated Mr. Young said after learning of the
ruling. "We feel it will be appealed, but it's the light at
the end of the tunnel... I can't really see the law
maintaining any operation after this year. It's sitting on a
really precarious foundation."

JCT: Which implies it's still alive, he hopes.

G&M: The regulations are supposed to give eligible people an
exemption from the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, the
law which makes possession of pot illegal for everyone else.
Instead, Mr. Young argued in September, the regulations are
so snarled in red tape that they discriminate against the
very people they're supposed to help: those who smoke pot to
ease the symptoms of their condition.

JCT: Yes, Young did argue that the MMAR was bad. But not
that the CDSA was bad.

G&M: Mr. Young said he fielded phone calls all afternoon
from supporters of his clients, seven people from across
Ontario who use pot to contend with a variety of ailments,
including multiple sclerosis and hepatitis C. "Everyone's
overjoyed; I'm getting calls from across the country from
this pot world," Mr. Young said. "They can't get out of bed
in the morning, but they can get this news very quickly."
Unless Ottawa appeals the ruling or comes up with a new
medical-marijuana regime within six months, that law will
fall, said Mr. Young, who's convinced the federal
government's reluctance to relax marijuana prohibition in
Canada is based on U.S. disapproval.

JCT: Unless they appeal within 6 months, the MMAR will fall?
Who cares if the MMAR falls. It's the CDSA that puts people
in jail. What did Young win in a declaration that the doors
in the dam don't work?

<cut from CP article>: "The law will be dead in Ontario," he
said. "There will be no further questions about that." There
were seven marijuana consumers included in Mr. Young's group
of applicants, along with a caregiver, the Toronto
Compassion Centre. Three other applicants are also
participating in the hearings. <endofcut>

JCT: That's Terry, Marc and me. With the challenge to the
CDSA. What law is Young talking about? The Judge said the
MMAR was unconstitutional. This Young calls victory? What
about our challenge to the CDSA itself?

G&M: "It reaches a point where the government will realize
it can't salvage the law, even if it realizes the Americans
will be unhappy," he said. "Their hands will become tied."
Department of Justice spokeswoman Dorette Pollard said
federal lawyers were perusing the judgment "as we speak" and
were expected to advise Health Minister Anne McLellan before
the end of the day on what steps to take. "They're reviewing
the decision, and will advise the minister accordingly," Ms.
Pollard said. They have 30 days to decide whether or not to
file an appeal, she added.

The ruling is the latest blow to Canada's marijuana laws,
which suffered a major setback earlier this month when a
judge threw out possession charges against a 16-year-old boy
in Windsor, Ont., on a technicality arising from the
regulations. In that case, the judge agreed with lawyer
Brian McAllister's arguments that flaws in the medical-
marijuana regime effectively negate the law's ability to
prohibit possession of five grams or less of marijuana. The
Department of Justice has already filed an appeal in that
case.

JCT: So a judge declared the CDSA dead on a technicality
while our judge didn't declare the CDSA dead on better than
that technicality? I can't wait to read what Lederman's
decision on Terry Parker's motion to declare the law dead
and too late to fix.

G&M: Mr. Young argued in court last year that the
regulations demand medical declarations that few doctors are
willing to provide given the legal consequences. They also
make it impossible for a doctor to recommend a dosage, since
the drug remains unregulated in Canada. Even those who do
win a legal exemption - more than 300 people in Canada are
currently permitted by Ottawa to smoke pot for medical
reasons - are forced to break the law, resorting to black-
market weed because the government is dragging its heels on
efforts to cultivate a pure supply for clinical trial.

There was no immediate word Thursday on whether the ruling
forces the government to make available the marijuana it
grew in a Manitoba mineshaft under a $5.7-million contract
for clinical trials. Ms. McLellan had refused to allow the
marijuana to be distributed because she says it simply isn't
pure enough.

JCT: Right. I wonder what the judge said about the wild
goose chase for the dope before the wrong court.
=========

Judge tells Feds to provide legal marijuana
The Ottawa Citizen
by Shannon Kari
Friday, January 10, 2003

SK: Poor marijuana access rules force sick to use drug
dealers, judge says

TORONTO -- The federal government's marijuana medical access
regulations were declared unconstitutional yesterday because
they force sick people to rely on "drug dealers" to supply
their medicine. Ontario Superior Court Justice Sidney
Lederman was asked to determine the constitutionality of the
regulations after seven chronically ill people and the
founder of a Toronto-based compassion club launched a
challenge last year arguing the 18-month-old regulations
were so cumbersome it was virtually impossible for people
with medical exemptions to obtain the drug.

JCT: So the MMAR was declared unconstitutional and that
making the CDSA unconstitutional didn't make the news.

SK: Judge Lederman said the federal government must find a
way to "provide for a legal source and supply" of marijuana
for medical purposes. Judge Lederman's ruling is yet another
legal blow to the federal government's marijuana policies.
Last week, a lower court judge in Windsor, Ont., found there
was no law banning possession of small amounts of marijuana
because the federal government failed to enact new
legislation as ordered by the Ontario Court of Appeal in
July 2000. The Justice Department is appealing that ruling.

JCT: It was the failure to enact access, not new legislation
that was the real killer.

SK: Judge Lederman suspended his decision from taking effect
for six months to give the government time to fix the
regulations. The veteran Superior Court judge said the
federal government has the right to enact regulations to
govern the distribution and use of marijuana for medical
purposes, even if some of the rules appear unfair. "The
principles of fundamental justice do not hold Parliament or
the government to a standard of perfection," Judge Lederman
wrote in his 38-page decision.

JCT: Without gotten my copy of his decision yet, I'll opine
that the government can be held to a standard of perfection
when a standard of perfection is possible. Excusing
preventable error because errors can exist is bad justice.

SK: But he suggested the current regulations fall far short
of perfection and referred to the "absurdity" of the current
scheme. "There is simply no way for individuals to obtain
marijuana seeds in Canada under existing laws, given the
(health) minister's inaction" on the regulations. "As a
result, the regulatory system set in place by the
regulations to allow people with a demonstrated medical need
to obtain marijuana simply cannot work without relying on
criminal conduct and lax law enforcement," Judge Lederman
wrote. "Laws which put seriously ill, vulnerable people in a
position where they have to deal with the criminal
underworld to obtain medicine they have been authorized to
take, violate the constitutional right to security of the
person... it does not lie in the government's mouth to ask
people to consort with criminals to access their
constitutional rights," the judge added.

JCT: He's handled how dealing with the underworld violates
their right to security, I wonder what he said about how
dealing with not getting their medicine at all violates
their right to life.

SK: Legal arguments in the Ontario case concluded nearly
three months ago. But the Justice Department said yesterday
it was not prepared to comment on the ruling. "Counsel are
carefully considering the reasons in the decision and will
advise the minister accordingly on the next step to take,"
said Dorette Pollard, a spokeswoman for the Justice
Department. Justice Minister Martin Cauchon earlier this
week repeated a pledge to bring in legislation to
decriminalize marijuana despite the concerns of Prime
Minister Jean Chretien.

A spokesman for Health Canada said the department was not
prepared to make any comment other than to say it will
"review" the ruling. The new medical marijuana regulations
came into effect in July 2001, nearly 12 months after the
Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that a blanket prohibition
against marijuana possession was unconstitutional. Paul
Burstein, a lawyer representing the people challenging the
medical regulations, said the federal government was warned
repeatedly that the regulations were unworkable. "They
rolled the dice. They should have to live with the
consequences," said Mr. Burstein.

JCT: And the consequences are that if the MMAR did not
remedy the unconstitutional defect for Terry Parker, then
the CDSA is unconstitutional too.
=======

>From: Orchidman (superposter)
>Date: 01/10/03 03:20 AM
>Re: Ontario Court Strikes Down Ottawa's Med-Pot Laws
The whole thing is very vague. A whole missing chunk is the
decision about Parker/Turmell that saught to declare the
entire law of no force and that was linked to this case. Not
a word said which seems strange to me. I also want to read
the judgement. I have learned to distrust anything I read in
the press since I have been coming here to these forums. It
seems like the press have a biased and hidden agenda.

JCT: How right. Lots about the challenge to the MMAR winning
but very vague with respect to the real important part about
whether the Parker/Turmel challenge to the CDSA wins.

Anyway, Alan Young thinks it's a win but he was aiming low.
I'll let you know if I think it's a win on the challenge to
the prohibition CDSA when Justice Lederman's reasons arrive
in the mail.

Finally, more credit to the "CDSA is dead because of MMAR
failure to satisfy Parker" arguments arise the next day.

Ottawa Citizen
Saturday Jan 11 2003
No law governing marijuana possession: judge
by Shannon Kari

Toronto man's drug case quashed by judge who used "common
sense"

TORONTO - A second Ontario Court judge has ruled that there
is no law prohibiting the possession of small amounts of
marijuana. Justice John Moore threw out marijuana possession
charges yesterday against Martin Barnes, a 40-year-old
Toronto man arrested last summer by police with the
equivalent of one joint, or about $5 worth of marijuana, in
his coat pocket. "Mr. Barnes was charged with an offence not
known to law," Judge Moore said as he quashed the charges...

In Windsor last week, Ontario Court Justice Douglas Phillips
ruled thtere was no law prohibiting the possession of less
than 30 grams of marijuana as a result of a July 2000 ruling
by the Ontario Court of Appeal. The high court found that
the blanket prohibition of marijuana possession was
unconstitutional. It gave the federal government one year to
bring in a new law that did not violate the Charter of
Rights or the ban on possession of small amounts of
marijuana would be invalid. Instead, the federal cabinet
enacted the Marijuana Medical Access Regulations, which set
out the guidelines to apply for a medical exemption to
possess or grow marijuana.

As well, Ontario Superior Court Justice Sidney Lederman
ruled this week that the medical regulations are
unconstitutional because they require sick people with
exemptions to go to drug dealers to acquire their medicine.
Justice Lederman suspended his ruling for 6 months to give
the federal government time to find a way to provide
marijuana to sick people or the medical regulations will
also be invalid.

JCT: The medical regulations being invalid is argument that
the CDSA is invalid. It's just that no one wants to go for
the whole enchilada.

The government's point now will be to make sure that hemp
does not become legal so that the competition from the hemp
plant does not arise. Which explains, now that the law is
dead, the next story:

Chretien's flip-flop: Let's move quickly to decriminalize
marijuana possession
Ottawa Citizen
Saturday Jan 11 2003
by Janice Tibbetts

After appearing hesitant before Christmas, Prime Minister
Jena Chretien is now ready to move quickly to decriminalize
possession of marijuana.

JCT: What they really mean is that after the courts have
found that the law is dead, he's moving fast to "RE-
criminalize marijuana.

"The PM is strong on this," said a spokesman from the Prime
Minister's Office. "The government is determined to address
this issue."

The spokesman, who did not want to be named, denied that Mr.
Chretien has changed his mind since an interview with Global
TV last month...

In an offensive move to show that Mr. Chretien and Justice
Minister Cauchon are in sync, the PMO supplied transcripts
yesterday of a justice committee hearing in 1980 when Mr.
Chretien, who was then Justice Minister, said that he
supported decriminalization of small amounts of marijiuana
so that young people "will not have a stigma for the rest of
their lives."

But he stressed at the time that he did not think the
government should legalize marijuana, so that people caught
with marijuana would receive no penalty at all. Despite Mr.
Chretien's stated intentions, marijuana possession has
remained a criminal offence.

JCT: Right. Judge them by what they do, not by what they
say. Jean Chretien has had 10 years as PM to follow up on
not giving young people criminal records and has deliver on
his promises when he had the power.

Now that the law is dead, perhaps we can get to using hemp
economically before they can re-criminalize it again. After
to the abolition of usury, the abolition of hemp prohibition
should prove our world's second biggest boon.



--
John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel, Author of the UNILETS
interest-free time-based currency United Nations C6 recommendation to
Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885