JCT: I've added Nigeria to the other 53 nations at my page
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/urlsnat.htm with as many
LETS time-trading systems around the world as I could find.
Daniel Delarasse passes on new in France about the latest
developement in Nigeria:

>From: clindoeil-international@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 04:52:07 EST
>From: archissi24@...
>Subject: Des LETS au Nigeria a LAGOS (english text to translate)

Brief Presentation

ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM (ILASA LETS)
LETS is exchange made possible without using cash.

Presented to:
STICHTING STROHALM
Oudegracht 42, 3511 AR Utrecht, The Netherlands
Tel. (+31)-(0)35-2314314, Fax:(+31)-(0)35 -2343986

WHAT IS LETS?
ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM (ILASA LETS) is an
international non-profit making/non-governmental
organization, which brings together, people within a
specified local community for the purpose of exchange of
goods, services and skills without the use of cash.

LETS is another alternative economic exchange that can be
used to fight against poverty because the system creates
resources that can be used to satisfy wants of its members.

At LETS, we believe that everyone has one thing or the
other to share with others. Be it skills, materials, goods
or services, everyday, everyone needs something and has
something to offer. Also, whether you are rich or poor in
terms of the Naira (our federal currency), LETS gives all
its members an opportunity to trade with others without
using cash and enhance even distribution of wealth or
resources.

LETS is also a source for acquiring new cycle of friends.
This is because people from all walks of life can become
LETS members. Plumbers, Doctors, Teachers, Engineers etc.
can be found at LETS and each can arrange trading with
others depending on what they have to offer and what they
want.

The primary focus of LETS is to contribute to the fight
against poverty and to enhance satisfaction of wants of its
members through exchange without cash and to collectively
contribute to the development of a strong local economy.

LETS to some people looks like the old barter system. It is
true that the system works in a similar way to barter,
except that trading can be with any other member of the
scheme: you can `buy" a service off one member and even up
the account by `selling" to another.

For we Africans, the most suitable exchange system is that
which evenly distribute wealth and allow everyone to acquire
skills, goods and services...without using cash. In fact,
for a country like Nigeria where the rate of poverty is
still high, LETS can be used to raise a standard against
poverty and conquer it if applied very well.

All over the world, exchange among LETS members is measured
using a unit of exchange. Members of a particular LETS
association decide on what can be used as their unit of
exchange. We the people of ILASA LETS have chosen "Green
Naira" which is equivalent to One Naira (N1) as our standard
unit of exchange.

JCT: How many Naira an hour will you pay your neighbor?

HISTORY OF ILASA LETS

The name "ILASA LETS" came into existence in November 2002
after the present coordinator of this scheme called
together a group of friends and told them of a research he
had just concluded on community development projects. These
groups of friends were formerly members of Fortune Club, a
social club that was also formed by the present Chairman /
Coordinator of ILASA LETS, Mr. Olaniyi Emmanuel Oladipupo in
December 1999.

JCT: LETS only need one inspired person to take off.

Niyi, as this visionary Co-ordinator would like to be called
told his friends who were ten in numbers that he had a
vision about transforming the Fortune Club into a community
development scheme so as to contribute to the socio-economic
developments of our local communities and country at large
and to join in the battle against poverty.

After holding a referendum on whether to scrap the Fortune
Club and transform it into a LETS association or not, it was
surprising that almost all the members of the then Fortune
Club voted unanimously in favour of the establishment of a
Local Exchange Trading System in the Ilasamaja area. This
referendum was preceded by series of meetings where LETS
benefits were considerably discussed.

The name "ILASA" was derived from "ILASAMAJA", one of the
communities represented under the Oshodi / Isolo Local
Government area of Lagos State, Nigeria. At the end of the
said referendum, all our current members agreed to call our
LETS group: "ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM (ILASA
LETS)".

JCT: I'll always call it a System of Traqding Employment
Locally, a Local Employment-Trading System. Exchange Trading
both mean the same thing.

Since the creation of ILASA LETS in the year 2002, we have
recorded a good degree of effective exchange without using
cash. One of the effective exchange we have carried out
since the commencement of our operations is that of one of
our members (a computer operator) who got his television set
repaired by another member (a qualified technician) in
exchange for giving the technician a two weeks training on
computer appreciation.

OUR VISION
From an African perspective, the victories we want to have
on behalf of our members and our local people is against
poverty. We at ILASA LETS is concerned about the plight of
our local people as far as their quality of lives is
concerned. Therefore, we are willing to inject the LETS
initiative into our local community by providing another
economic alternative that will enrich the lives of the
majority.

Since human wants are always on the increase whereas the
corresponding resources presently available to satisfy these
wants are scarce, we want to introduce a landmark economic
alternative like LETS in order to further enhance
availability of resources within a specified community and
as such contribute our own weaponry to the battle against
poverty. Even distribution of wealth among the local people
is also one of our goals.

OUR STATEMENT OF PURPOSE
"ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM (ILASA LETS)" is a non-
profit making / non-governmental organization whose primary
focus is to contribute its own weaponry to the battle
against poverty. Categorically, we were established to
encourage fight against poverty, the development of a strong
local economy, strong local community that is based on
trust, making resources available within a particular local
community and creating an avenue for making new cycle of
friends".

OUR KEY OBJECTIVES
1) To effectively carry out exchange of goods by putting in
place, a system of pre-collection and stockage of offers.

2) To intensify flow of exchange of skills by the
development of a popular professional / vocational training
centres in favour of women and youths.

3) To amplify our social impact by developing partnerships
with experienced public administrators, local and
international Non-Governmental Organisations that has to do
with poverty alleviation & community development, village /
community and urban organizations, active structures in
training, micro finance operators...etc.

4) To set up LETS in major communities within the Federal
Republic of Nigeria by the year 2010.

5) To re-in force our expertise and enrich our vision by
forming partnerships with other LETS associations around the
world, by sharing their experiences and ideas.

6) To hold public seminars and social activities from time
to time with a view to attracting new members into ILASA
LETS and further make public, the benefits of LETS to our
local people.

7) To create a trading atmosphere based on trust and where
people within a particular local community can come together
in love and even make new cycle of friends.

8) To attend LETS seminars holding around the world and
other community / social development-oriented seminars &
workshops holding locally and internationally in order to
share ideas and experiences and further enrich our
knowledge.

OUR EXCHANGE DOMAINS
Domains of exchange at ILASA LETS are not restricted to a
particular thing or material. Everything can be exchanged at
ILASA LETS: services, food items, vests, vehicles, ideas,
secrets, professional training, repairs, equipments, houses,
hobbies, administrative assistance, computer training and
just anything.

Exchange of skills, goods and services is often carried out
during our regular monthly meetings, which is always lively.

We publish monthly "Yellow Pages" ahead of our meetings and
we ensure that each member have a copy at least three days
before our meeting. Compilations of offers by our members
precede the distribution of the Yellow Pages. Our Yellow
Pages is divided into:

a) The Directory: a list of current members and their
contact details.
b) The Skill List: an index list of skills, goods & services
offer by the members.

During our meetings, each member, having look at different
offers by other members come together and make trade
agreements without using cash. It is not necessary that a
member do a direct swap with another. This shows the only
difference between this system and barter. A member may
offer something to a particular member and earn another
thing from a different member entirely. Also, it is not
necessary that one earns the exact value of what his offer,
everything is done with trust.

Since we started our operations in November 2002, ILASA LETS
has recorded a remarkable success in the services part of
our exchange domains. Below is a mathematical representation
of exchange carried out between November 2002 and January
2003:

Skills: 64%

Services: 16%

It is worthy to state here that our local people warmly
embrace this system with love. It is more likely that we
will have more members at our next monthly meeting and more
exchange without cash will be carried out.

OUR MEMBERSHIP COMPOSITION
At present, we are made up of thirteen (13) members, the
management inclusive. An Accountant, a Marketing Consultant,
Technicians, Computer Professionals and a Cabinet / Interior
Decorator are part of our current members. We hope that our
membership base will be larger than this by the end of the
year 2003.

JCT: All I want to know is if you have a room for rent at 5
Hours per night so you can join the International
LETS Accommodations Network.

THE MANAGEMENT
A Board of Trustees runs the affairs of ILASA LETS. The
Board consists of dedicated men and women who are willing to
work hand in hand to ensure that our set goals and
objectives are realized within the budgeted timeframe. The
entire members of ILASA LETS democratically elected them
because we run our affairs in a democratic form. The
following persons are included in our Board of Trustees and
their respective positions held defined:

BOARD OF TRUSTEES
No.  Name Position
1. OLANIYI EMMANUEL OLADIPUPO
CHAIRMAN & PROJECT CO-ORDINATOR
2. TOKUNBOH OLANIPEKUN
PERSONAL ASSISTANT TO THE CHAIRMAN
3. JIDE TORIOLA
GENERAL SECRETARY
4. OLANIYI TAIWO
PUBLIC RELATIONS OFFICER
5. BUKOLA TAIWO
WAREHOUSE  KEEPER
6. MUSILUI OLAITAN
ACCOUNTS / RECORDS OFFICER

OUR PARTNERS
At present, ILASA LETS have no partnership agreements with
any organization. Although few local organizations have
signified interest to become our partners, arrangements is
still underway to arrive at a reasonable end. A meeting with
some public administrators is being proposed in the nearest
future so as to enlarge our popularity base.

The reinforcement of our proper capacity calls for strategic
partnership with pioneers of clear LETS concepts around the
world such as: STICHTING STROHALM, ENGLISH LETS, AMERICAN
TIME DOLLAR...etc

OUR SOURCES OF FINANCE
Our main sources of finance are:
- Monthly contributions of N500 - our local currency
(equivalent to US$4) by members.
- Voluntary contributions by volunteers.
- Sales of registration forms and tickets

We are working towards acquiring other sources of finance,
which is necessary in order for us to be able to fully
realize our set objectives within our budgeted timeframe and
offset our administrative expenses.

OUR SHORT TERM CHALLENGES / FUTURE PLANS
- To establish necessary popularity for LETS by the quality
of our services and with the contribution of the mass media:
radio, TV, Newspapers...etc
- To acquire minimum office requirements: computers,
printers, photocopiers, scanners, telephone, Internet
connections...etc at our headquarters at No. 6, Fayemi
Street, Ilasamaja, Lagos - Nigeria.
- To acquire general logistic materials like: vehicles,
training materials, public address systems...etc
- To develop and equip a popular professional / vocational
training center in favour of women and youths for a positive
impact on our local community.
- To set up and equip a "Stock warehouse" to cater for pre-
collection and stockage of goods

CONCLUSION
We are happy to say that ILASA LETS was established at the
right time our local people needs another alternative
economic approach that will encourage the fight against
poverty and improve the quality of their lives.

Since we are a young and inexperienced institution, we want
to use this opportunity to seek partnership relations with
STICHTING STROHALM by sharing your experiences and ideas
with us and by giving us more accurate guidelines through
which we can achieve our set objectives and get placed at
the top.

We highly hope that your proposed LETS helpdesk for
developing countries like ours will also be another source
of development for us.

We must not fail to thank you for the hands of love you
extended to us. The whole members of ILASA LETS salute you.

For further information about us, please don't hesitate to
contact us through our contact information stated below:

ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM (ILASA LETS)
No. 6 Fayemi Street (Off Berliet B/Stpop), Ilasamaja
Lagos - Nigeria
Tel.: (+234) 01 480 6371
Mobile: (+234) 080 3700 4356
Email: ilasalets@...

Contact person: OLANIYI EMMANUEL OLADIPUPO
Or
OLANIYI TAIWO (P.R.O. - ILASA LETS)
TAIWO STANDARD FURNITURE
62, Ajose Street (Off Berliert B/Stop)
Ilasamaja, Lagos - Nigeria.
Tel. (Mobile): (+234) 080 3337 9652
Email: taiwostandard@...
Kindest regards,
OLANIYI E. OLADIPUPO
(Chairman / Project Co-ordinator - ILASA LETS)

retrouvez tous les textes sur:
http://www.appropriate-economics.org/africa/lagos_lets_constitution.htm
ILASA LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM

JCT: Good luck. Print Notes. Put the Time Value on the notes
too.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 519-756-1325 USENET: can.politics

COMMUNICATIONS DISRUPTIONS
--------------------------

JCT: Just when I appealed for support in trying to create a
new Ontario party, someone at my ISP switched my email ID
from turmel@... to turmel@... and so none
of my messages to many groups were recognized. At the very
same time, I started getting rejections for cross-posting to
too many groups. Going directly to Yahoo didn't help since
they have a limit on the number of groups. So I have to drop
your group. Make sure to send a thank-you message to
support@yahoogroups.com

The posts that have been missed are can be found at:

Need Hat-Trick candidates for Prov. Party
bc726@...     Sat  9/13/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1943

Freedom, Marijuana, Libertarian Party Events
turmel@...     Sat  9/13/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1944

Turmel: #2 Alias lists don't work
turmel@...     Sat  9/13/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1945

BC declares Prohibition "unknown to law"
turmel@...     Mon  9/15/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1946

Instructions for Hat-Trick candidates
bc726@...     Wed  9/17/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1947

Election in Brant & First Debate
bc726@...     Sat  9/20/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1948

Casino drew poker lover into election, Brantford Expositor
bc726@...     Tue  9/23/2003
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/1949

JCT: Of course, it's all about UNILETS and victimless crime,
and, what can I say but that it's about another loser Turmel
move even if my ISP screwing up my communications was a
factor.

You can use Google groups USENET search for "turmel" sorted
on date or the specific groups: can.politics or
alt.fan.john-turmel and at several yahoogroups including
http://yahoogroups.com/group/letssc gets LETS Social Credit
http://yahoogroups.com/group/medpot gets cannabis medpot
http://yahoogroups.com/group/abolitionist-on LETS & medpot
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel2step gets Poker
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel that gets all

If you don't belong to one of these groups, this is the last
you'll be hearing about UNILETS and medpot elections from
John Turmel. Yahoo has ruled there are too many groups. So
be it.


ONTARIO COURT OF APPEAL DECISION?
---------------------------------

JCT: On Tue Sep 23 2003, Brian McAllister wrote in a post
called "A decision Friday"

Notice: To be posted on the Court's website at 10:00 a.m. on
Friday, September 26, 2003, decisions in Hitzig et al. v.
Her Majesty the Queen, Parker v. Her Majesty the Queen,
Parker et al. v. Her Majesty the Queen, R. v. Turmel, and R.
v. J.P.

On July 29, 30 and 31, a panel of the Court of Appeal for
Ontario, composed of Justices Doherty, Goudge and Simmons,
heard these seven appeals from decisions of judges of the
Superior Court of Justice, in relation to the constitutional
validity of the Government of Canada's scheme for
establishing medical exemptions from the prohibition on the
possession, and in some cases, production, of marihuana
contained in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. The
panel will release its judgments in these appeals on Friday,
September 26, 2003.

JCT: Talk about a wonderful break. One week before my
provincial election and I might win a writ of prohibition
forcing all marijuana charges to be dropped in Canada. I
figured it should help somewhat But then, on Tue Sep 23
2003, Brian_McAllister said:

OCA decision delayed, was announced Fri. Sept. 26!
I saw the announcement this morning, but when I returned to
the website to link to it, the announcement was gone. I'm
not sure what to make of that. I would also say that I
expect the court's decisions will not be clear. I suspect
that they will decide that the government failed to properly
address the constitutional problem by July 31, 2001 (so
therefore there was a period of invalidity). However, I also
expect that they will craft the decision in such a way that
allows the prohibition to be reinstated without the passing
of new legislation - and that perhaps the prohibition was
effective once again as of July 8, 2003 (ie. the date the
government started - allegedly - distributing pot).
Brian McAllister

JCT: Finally, on Wed Sep 24 2003 Marc Emery wrote:

Was informed by Alan Young that the release of the decision
has been delayed by 5 - 10 days.

JCT: What's going on? Did someone tell the court to delay
their decision until after the election? Let another 75
epileptics die? Or until the govrernment brings in the new
prohibition while Marc Emery keeps everyone distracted
partying over the short-lived win?

Regardless, as soon as information comes down, I'll report.
If I don't win everything, then the battle goes to the
Supreme Court of Canada. If I do, you may hear about it.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 519-756-1325 USENET: can.politics

JCT: Marc Emery will be at Cannabian Day in front of Osgoode
Hall in Toronto on Saturday August 30 2003 between 1pm and
5pm looking for support in founding his not-yet-registered
pro-Marijuana Party of Ontario.

John Turmel will be there doing the same thing for my not-
yet-registered pro-marijuana and pro-LETS-interest-free-
banking Abolitionist Party of Ontario. I want to be
the province's Premier Engineer and it's as simple as
fielding 61 candidates who each need 100 signatures, one
day's canvassing, and $200 to run. Only one day's canvassing
gets a person registered, I've done it a couple of dozen
times.

So I challenge Marc Emery to political debate on the pros
and cons of cannabis supporters helping register his one-
issue party to tackle the marijuana prohibition or my multi-
issue party to do that and take on some other bad
prohibitions against victimless consentual crimes that need
abolishing too. As a former Libertarian, Emery surely can't
disagree with that. Emery wants people to support his
Marijuana anti-prohibition party and I want them to support
my Abolitionist Party to do that and more.

I say any party aiming to be serious needs an economic
program and an Ontario LETS interest-free timedollar banking
software that can lend to everyone including government and
utilities is a winner in any debate.

So, as Premier, I'd say: Here are your interest-free bank
accounts from the provincial Sugar Daddy bank and don't
bother my police unless someone's complaining so they have
maximum time to spend on policing our ecosystem. After I'm
free from the growth of debt and free from unreasonable
personal prohibitions, I can retire and get back to touring
the great poker casinos of the world.

But before any such debate, I'm going to be venting my
spleen at the Court of Appeal delay of a month while people
have been dying who could have been saved. Isn't it handy
that my political opponent chose to make his statements
right outside Osgoode Hall where I had made mine on the
inside. Har har har har.

It will take more than an hour to read the 22 pages of Court
of Appeal transcript before the Court of Appeal building
where it had been heard once before. The transcripts cannot
have done justice to the voice modulations and body language
I have learned to use to stress many low-volumed points.

And then I'm going to take some time to chastise the Court
of Appeal for the 300 epileptics they're responsible for
letting die during their month-long deliberations. When I
shake my fist at the courthouse, it'll be right courthouse!

It's kind of amazing that the start of my new election race
starts at the scene of my last court battles: Osgoode Hall.
What a start point for my upcoming hat-trick of elections.
#55, 56, 57.

And I'm running for Premier to make sure we get better brand
of justice from the courts than this emergency has been
accorded.

This is 1 full hour of presentation to the Court of Appeal
to be recorded. Word for word. Then I'm going to give them
heck for the last hour and explain the victims I've met
leading up to it all. Not only Terrance Parker and Marc
Paquette but dozens of other victims. Thousands actually.

So that's my presentation. I'm going to get myself worked up
by my plea and then I'm going to thunder at them for not
moving their asses while people are dying.

But of course, then I'll have to deal with "Dare-be-busted-
with-a-gram" Emery and "Dare-be-busted-with-3-Keys" Turmel
in the same political arena. He has a lot of explaining to
do.

He and his crew have committed many cardinal undemocratic
sins which have been completely detailed on the net. Time
for Marc Emery to face The Medpot Engineer.

Marc Emery, editor of Cannabis Culture, the man who founded
the Marijuana Party of Canada and gave us never-elected
leader-for-life Marc-Boris St-Maurice is coming to help
found a Marijuana Party of Ontario and give us, no doubt,
another never-elected leader-for-life for our anti-
prohibition supporters. I'm there to offer an alternative.

There are many ways to play politics fairly but no parties
practice it yet. They're all controlled from the top. No one
can ever get rid of Marc Emery's boy in charge of the
Marijuana Party of Canada if he won't accept to leave,
that's how they've got it set up at Elections Canada. Some
parties avoid that by having pre-signed resignations letters
triggered by electoral defeat but the crooked parties never
do. Marc-Boris St-Maurice is the never-elected leader-for-
life and there's nothing anyone can do about it. He didn't
think he could beat me at the 2002 leadership convention so
he called off the vote.

Listeners may hear what was argued in the highest Ontario
court behind us with the aid of the sound system or they
have to count on my stentorian voice. But the only pro-
marijuana political leader with a science degree, the only
political leader taking that fight to the highest courts, is
me. And it's going to take my kind of engineering
superiority to defeat the upcoming debate over re-
installation of prohibition.

I hold Emery responsible for many bad things:

1) Not publishing Parker winning the Pitt decision;
2) Not publishing Young helped the Crown set it aside.
3) Not publishing Paquette winning exemption extensions;
4) Deleting the leadership poll on the eve of the convention;
5) Censoring party communications;
6) Installing the never-elected leader-for-life.

But suppressing the Pitt victory is what let Alan Young
betrayal remain hidden. For a whole month before Pitt was
set aside, Cannabis Culture could have been flaunting it as
every epileptic in Canada is urged to get a doctor's
prescription and flaunt the results.

But no. Emery spiked the story on the Pitt decision. His
dirty deed. The country didn't find out the first judge said
the MMAR had not complied. They had to wait for the straw
man victory by Lederman that could eventually turn against
us.

Everyone understands how the situation would have been
different had Alan Young represented to Justice Chapnik that
the Pitt decision meant she had to declare the MMAR failed
to save the law. The law could have been dead April 17 2002.

Instead, he helped the Crown get the Pitt decision set
aside and the declaration it's dead had to wait a year. Why
Emery supported Young on Pitt has to be answered. I hold
Emery as responsible for not publishing the Pitt
decision as Young helping the Crown set it aside.

They're all guilty of genociding every Canadian epileptic
who died since then. Just like these low-tech judges that
I'll be chastising for their scientific ignorance. They're
not good enough for our high-tech world and people have a
right to say so. If they can't think fast while people are
dying, they can't think fast enough for the job if I'm
Premier of Ontario in the next two months. The long-shot,
sure but a shot nevertheless.

So I'll be at Cannabian Day ranting at Osgoode Hall and
maybe tearing a few feathers off Marc Emery's hide. I really
don't see how he'll be able to answer for all his dirty
deeds but his judgment day has come to Ontario.




  TONIGHT'S INDICTMENT.
Appeal Court takes time while 300 epileptic die

JCT: Sadly, as I tried to warn, Doherty Doherty Goudge
Simmons delay of a month in ruling that all Canadian
epileptics need their cannabis right now to stave off 10
dead epileptics a day, that's 300 epileptic lives lost that
could have been saved. The Equation of Responsibility
generating the K-slab of lost souls is 10t where t is in
days. 30 days times 10 dead epileptics = 300.

  JCT: For info on how K-slabs work, see:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/scc3.htm and it's all
explained in my "crucial information poetry" at my home
page. If you haven't hummed your way through it yet, that's
a dereliction you should enjoy correcting:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombank.htm

ACTIONS OF BANKING SYSTEMS ENGINEER
As Banking Systems Engineer, I claimed authority,
And swore to fix the banking system expeditiously.
A hundred times I sought injunctions, six right to the top,
In each I sought the order that the interest they stop....

"Mort" is the section of the mortgage which eliminates,
And causes "death" by poverty which seals so many fates.
The Section 318 says proofs of genocides derive:
"Inflicting on the group conditions where all can't survive."

And finally the Science warns "The deadline's getting near.
This is a case of life and death that you should really fear."
I argued that foreclosures kept our life support less strong.
They had the power to put right the program that's gone wrong.
The statements sent to me by banks and credit cards provide,
For interest and service fees both listed side by side.
We could restrict the program to collect the service charge,
Enough the pay the bankers for the service they discharge.
So with those laws, I asked the courts to overrule the Act,
"Abolish interest and make the service charges fact."

EQUATION OF RESPONSIBILITY
I pointed out they had the might to instantaneously,
Effect repair on our industrial capacity.
It's just like a conveyer belt with people in a line,
Who fall into abyss of Luciferian design.
If you could press a button and cut power to the beast,
The belt would have momentum but you'd lose the very least.
With the production maximized of butter, not of guns,
We still could not get there in time for all the weakest ones.
So there would be a finite loss of souls until the day,
When all may access credit and for life support may pay.
But if you'd waited for a while before you used your might,
You'd lose some extra souls for failing to so expedite.
And if you had refused to press the button to this day,
It would, on you, the blame for every fallen soul we'd lay.
With simple mathematics we can count the number who,
Have perished by inaction of the men with power few.
The number of souls perishing, all due to the delay,
Is equal to the number who do perish on that day.
With 40,000 children dying every single day,
Responsibility belongs to those who had the say.
Since all the judges had the power to compel the banks,
To fix the killer program so they don't deserve our thanks.
The number they must answer for which day to day does climb,
Is equal to the number who have perished since that time.


JCT: But in http://yahoogroups.com/group/medpot/message/955
on July 30th, in the Big Five Appeal transcript, I explained
in my favorite parts to Ontario Court of Appeal Justices
Doberty, Gould and Simmons in the Lederman appeal how they
had the power to save 10 epileptics day, 4 for sure. And
people have since died due to the delay in their decision
that the prohibition remains invalid.

The same integral of lost souls generating a K-slab of
responsibility to those who could have pressed the "stop"
button on the killer prohibition run amok. Of course, the
world-wide K-slab losses for delaying cannabis to epileptics
is more than 200 times greater par day, over 2000 per day,
the lost souls due to the delay world-wide is still three
quarters of a million per year for nothing. Still, it's
nothing compared to the judges who could have abolished
interest rates 24 years ago each time I asked who have far
larger K-slabs of lost souls who could have been saved than
these medpot-delaying wielders of public-power.

Those are big numbers to lay on 3 2nd-level referees. Call
their K-slab 2000t where "t" is the number of days of delay.
Compared to the "abolish interest rate" delayers at
100,000t, seems like penny-ante genocide.

But I still love to muse about all those angry souls coming
out to greet them at Heaven's Gate to kick a few judicial
asses before they get in.

So the month delay while Justices Doherty Gould and Simmons
deliberate on abolishing the prohibition on epileptic
medicine has cost the world Canada 300 and the world 200 x
300 = 60,000 souls who could have all survived had the
process of abolition accelerated a month ago.

Anyway, I get the impression the decision will come after
the new prohibitions have been re-imposed. I get the
impression that it's going to take some political noise to
thwart that and it looks like I'm going to have to get into
politics over the next year in a big way. Three major
elections coming up to permit organisation leading up to the
Federal Election.

That's what I meant by a hat-trick. It's not many who have
ever been declared candidates in 3 elections and here's a
chance for plenty of people to run in all three.

So I expect to be doing the appeal pleas and then debating
Emery if he's up to it.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

JCT: I'm organizing an Abolitionist Party of Ontario to
contest the upcoming general elections and resolving these
issues are my four main goals.

So I hope to be running for Premier of Ontario within the
month and you know there's LETS component in our provincial
platform. Politics can be a heck of a game even if played in
minor arenas. But the Internet's changed the odds in many
novel ways and founding a party that could form the next
government is far more easily done than many figure.

Call it the politics of gambling but I invite you to keep
track at http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel or the USENET
newsgroups.

I post everything to alt.fan.john-turmel and cross-posted
LETS stories to can.politics,sci.econ,sci.engr,
alt.politics.greens,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.conspiracy

My ISP only permits me 7 USENET groups so I have to drop the
alt.politics.greens,alt.politics.usa.misc groups. If you
want to follow the upcoming political races by Canada's
Great Canadian Gambler for Premier of Ontario and then Prime
Minister of Canada (2nd time), you can pick them up at these
7 USENET newsgroups:

alt.fan.john-turmel, (got everything including poker)
can.politics, (got everything but poker)
alt.gambling,
alt.drugs,
sci.econ,
sci.engr,
alt.conspiracy.

Anyone who wants the political feed in their mailbox will
have to join my http://http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

>Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:29:05 -0500
>From: seeshell@... (Chris Kenny)
>Subject: RE: Could you help us choose a LETS community for
our new home?
>To: TURMEL@... (John Turmel)

CK: Hello John -- Based on new information --- it seems that
I should alter my query somewhat, to read:

?? Where in your opinion are particular communities, around
the world, which meet pretty well the search criteria
mentioned in my last message -- and which IN ADDITION might
be auspicious choices of a lifetime effort on my part to
help slowly BUILD a successful local currency experiment
there ???

JCT: The only search criteria is people with insufficient
money to trade their time. And that's everywhere.

CK: NOTE: I am interested in combining a local "currency"
system with a vast expansion of the local "library" system,
beyond books, to include ALL types of community-owned as
well as privately-owned goods and services, for sharing in
all conceivable manners (renting, leasing, loaning,
exchanging, etc.).

JCT: So the bigger, the better. And yet, now that you can
simply start up your own Personal Internet LETS bank
account, you can trade with the whole world anyway. But
still, the larger the original network of goods and
services, the more you can pay with time and the less you
have to pay with federal cash.

CK: This would require a pre-existing unusual cultural
attitude, unlike anything that I have found present in the
USA (a country which is tragically [in my opinion] devoted
to dual/contradictory brainwashing of its young --- both
towards the values recited "on Sunday morning", and towards
the exact opposite for the rest of the week --- with
"success" in BOTH as "measurements", of the innate value of
an individual.  Both sets of values are, in my opinion --
off the mark --- certainly in interpretation as "measuring
tools".)

JCT: Getting out of Gulag Amerika isn't such a bad idea.
Though I'm sure Gulag Earth isn't far behind in the
planning.

CK: I am looking for a local culture therefore which is not
mass schizophrenic --- in which the systems described above
might fit like a glove --- and ENABLE a behavior which is
already deeply rooted in spirit.

JCT: I think the biggest LETS is in Australia with several
thousand members. But I think the country with the greatest
LETS effect may be Argentina. They have several dozen
different valid currencies so I'd bet things are improving
there fast. Which would account for no new about riots and
also no news about why.

Thanks for your last minute help if you can give it -- Patty
and I have only a couple of more days in which to book a
flight to some good choice somewhere. We will choose
Vancouver Island unless otherwise directed (not knowing any
better), and would appreciate suggested "contact people"
there (or ANYWHERE) to confer with, about my interests.

JCT: Salt Spring Island probably has the best West Coast set
up for a local currency system though they've built in a
self-destruct mechanism by giving their currency an expiry
date which should hurt them pretty bad real soon.

CD: Best to you, and in thanks for all of your diligent
thought and work (as described on the web -- my only source
of information.) Chris Kenny USA 212/ 740-1131

JCT: It's too bad that the US Timedollar systems remain 1-
velocity machines. Until they go high-tech and use paper
tokens, they'll always, unfortunately, be small, backward
and struggling. Of course, I can't tell them this as my
posts are censored at their yahoogroup. Of course, most
members don't know that their reading is censored of
important material so they can't be blamed. But as I keep
pointing out, moles seem to rise to the top of all
organisations to defeat the purpose of those organisations.
My urging them to switch to high-velocity currency never got
through. That's why there's no powerful Timedollar system in
the States and why you may have to leave. Sad, eh?

Finally, your best bet in America might just be moving to an
Indian reserve:

>Subject: [apfn-1] Digest Number 860
>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:29:48 -0000
>From: "******" <tigerslilly7@...>
>Subject: WAMPUM ... America's First Currency

Wampum, ke`kwuk, squau-tho-won; all are Algonquian words for
shell beads or string of shell beads. Wampumpeage is a
Narragansett word for "white beads strung". Throughout
northeastern America, wampum was used for jewelry, gifts,
communication, historical record of important events,
religious ceremonies, and trade. It was the earliest form of
currency known in North America. Its value was derived from
the difficulty involved in producing the cylindrical bead
from both Quahog and Whelk, and the scarcity of suitable
shells. White beads were made from Whelk, purple-blackish
from Quahog.

The beads were produced from the inner spiral of the shells.
The spiral or columna must be thick enough to withstand
grinding, shaping and drilling. The shells were collected
along the coastal shores during the summer, and worked in
the winter months. The inner spirals were cut into cylinders
measuring 1/4 inch long by 1/8 inch diameter. Each bead was
then smoothed through grinding, polished, drilled, and
finally strung on hemp fibers or sinew. It was difficult,
tedious, and time consuming work. The proportionate scarcity
of the Quahog beads doubled their value to that of white
wampum.

Though wampum is most often associated with the Iroquois,
and there are claims that the Iroquois were the first
producers of wampum beads, it is more likely that the
Iroquois were introduced to wampum by trade. The Iroquois
lived in the interior, whereas sea shells could be found
only in the coastal regions. The Narragansetts were most
probably the first producers of wampum, with other coastal
Algonquians, including the Delaware, following shortly
thereafter.

Wampum was a firmly established base of currency by the time
of increased European colonial settlements in the 17th
century. Though it did have a monetary value, its sole
purpose for the colonials, it was by no means limited to an
economic role. As stated above, wampum was used for a
multitude of purposes, not least of which was the binding
truth to words "written" in wampum. So respected and
important was it that an accompanying belt of wampum gave
great solemnity to messages, speeches, and agreements. A
message delivered via a wampum belt is said to have been
greater than a thousand words, and it was accepted as truth.
It was the seal, the proof of covenants made. The oldest
extant wampum belt is the Huron belt given to the Jesuits to
commemorate the first mission house built in Huronia.
Offered and accepted in 1638, the Huron belt is currently
housed in the Vatican.

With the influx of more Europeans in the 17th century,
notably the Dutch and English, metal tools became widely
available to Indians in the east. Among these tools were
slender metal drills which greatly facilitated the
production of wampum. These new tools enabled the Indians to
produce uniform beads more quickly and with greater ease.
Applying basic economic principles to wampum as a
commodity/currency in the 17th century, it might be assumed
that wampum decreased in value as its production was sped
up. On the contrary, its value remained stable. Again
applying the basic economic rule of supply and demand,
though the Europeans brought tools that helped to increase
wampum production, they also balanced their contribution
with an increased demand for the shell beads.

Wampum remained the standard legal tender of both Indians
and New England colonists until nearly the end of the 17th
century. It was, in the words of New England economic
historian William Weeden, "the magnet which drew the beaver
out of the interior forests." Though the New Englanders
prized it solely for its economic value, the Algonquians and
Iroquois continued to utilize wampum for ornamentation,
communication, ceremonial use, and as a reminder of the
solemnity of agreements.

For communication purposes, wampum remained the "bead" of
choice. Runners carried wampum belts from one village to
another bringing news. The recipients of these messages knew
as the runner approached whether or not he brought tidings
of great joy, or that he was the bearer of bad news. A belt
primarily worked in white beads was a good sign. A belt with
a predominance of purple was cause for fear and
apprehension. It may mean war, disaster, or a death
announcement.

Ornamentation uses of wampum included bracelets, anklets,
necklaces, belts, straps, and headbands. Decorative items of
wampum were signs of wealth. One who wore several adorning
items of wampum was a well off, or respected person. Sachems
would have need of much wampum, as they had need of many
other valuable possessions. An expectation of a New England
sachem was that he be a generous gift giver. A gift of any
of these was much appreciated, deserving of a fine return
(the term "Indian giver" arose from the Indian custom to
expect a gift in return for a gift). A woman would often
have wampum earrings, perhaps a sash, and anklets. Delaware
women frequently wore belts and headbands of woven strands
of wampum, while the Iroquois and Mohicans, men and women,
favored several single strand wampum necklaces.

As the New England colonists adopted wampum as their
standard currency, incidents of fraud (wampum counterfeit)
increased. Both Indian and Englishman were known to pass off
inferior or fraudulent wampum to unsuspecting colonials. In
time, regulation and a standardized measure of wampum
strands was implemented. A fathom (6 feet) was the most
usual measurement and instantly denoted a specific monetary
value measured against English shillings, pence, pounds, and
so forth. The fact that legislation was introduced,
regulations regarding wampum manufacture were set down,
penalties for counterfeit or inferior quality wampum trading
were harsh, and in some colonies the rejection of dark
wampum for only white (though its value was greater, it was
easier to counterfeit by way of dye), all illustrate how
dependent the colonists and Indians were on these shell
beads.

There was some fluctuation in wampum's value, as is always
the case with currency, but by and large, it remained
uniformly acceptable and desirable to nearly the end of the
17th century in the colonies and into the 18th century along
the frontiers. Its worth, however, was tenable. Wampum was
only good as long as the Indians prized it. If or when that
was no longer the case, an economic crash could occur
throughout the English colonies that would have had serious
consequences in New England, and subsequently, in the mother
country as well. It was this realization, along with the
declining demand for fur, that moved the New Englanders to
gradually phase out wampum as a currency standard. With
silver from the West Indies beginning to circulate in North
America, wampum was slowly being replaced by that
universally valued commodity, metal coinage.

The Mohicans and Mohawk both operated as brokers in the
wampum exchange throughout the 17th century. It was a
lucrative venture to all involved, a point that is
highlighted by Mohawk frustration at their inability to
access the wampum producing coastal tribes during the
Mohican/Dutch alliance. It was important enough to be the
object of diplomacy and compromise during the treaty
discussions in which the Dutch mediated. (The Dutch even
tried their hand at producing wampum beads, but the Indians
would not accept it, thereby making it useless.) The
resulting agreement upheld the Mohicans possession of their
Hudson Valley lands and rights to the fur trade, while the
Mohawk were to be permitted to cross these lands to access
the wampum makers. Both tribes traded wampum to others in
the west and north, and were major suppliers to the Seneca.

By the mid 18th century, during the French and Indian War,
the use of wampum as currency had declined so much that the
Indians themselves were rejecting it as payment. They too
wanted silver in exchange for their furs and services, and
would often turn to the Dutch settlements, rather than the
English, for their trading ventures.

Wampum remained long in use for ornamentation purposes,
though even in this area it began to decline. More and more
trade items were being adapted to suit the styles and
traditions of Indian people in the east. Wampum belts,
however, as proof of good will and binding agreements,
continued. Some Indian people still possess the belts their
ancestors wove to record and commemorate events and
covenants of earlier days. With great respect, these belts
are kept by the people. Wampum belts that serve as solemn
reminders of past agreements are still extant. The most
famous of these is the Iroquois Covenant belt, given in 1794
to the Iroquois Confederacy by the United States government
to mark the great covenant between the two nations.

It is interesting, if not ironic, to note that wampum
remains valuable even today. A single wampum bead made from
Quahog or Whelk, manufactured in New England coastal areas
can cost up to $10! Overseas wampum is less expensive, but
still demands a good price. Wampum, the first currency of
the new world, has survived as a desired item long enough to
be considered a classic.

Next in the History Series Pages: THE DELICATE ART OF
SCALPING Looking for related books? Visit our MOHICAN PRESS
BOOK SHOPPE
For a glimpse into frontier life: 1750's TRADE GOODS
Take a look at our QUAHOG WAMPUM JEWELRY.

JCT: All you have to do is go somewhere and start a paper
TimeWampum system and all the weaknesses built into the US
Timedollar system will disappear.

I have come to the conclusion that many people who have
gravitated to the top of many LETS systems are there to make
sure they go nowhere. I've seen the US Timedollar system
remain backwards and low-velocity for almost 20 years.
Consider that my posts urging them to go with high-tech
paper have been systematically censored for years and it's
hard not to think that those in charge have a malevolent
intent. Why they never gravitate to the stronger high-
velocity system can't be accidental and when the people
keeping the US Timedollar system backwards also censor
information on how to soup up their engine, you have to
consider the word "sabotage."

There's the chance that the UK Timedollar systems may
eventually overcome whatever bad influence the US people
have on them because of the many LETS in the UK which
continue to generate discussion about them joining up. This
should help LETS get on the Time Standard of Money and the
Timedollars get high-velocity currency at some point. I
hope.

So I can't really advise you to move anywhere. But I would
advise you to make a list of all your friends and businesses
who might be interested in joining your own home-town
timecurrency system. Keep in mind that they have their lists
too. You might be surprised what kind of a list of goods and
services a dozen people in a room might add to the list.

There's really nowhere to run to. Either Earth gets a
UNILETS to pay to save itself or it suffers extinction. To
rise up again as a sentient life form and see if it can
develop into a civilization that can beat its usurious
chains.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

>Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 16:36:35 +0000
>From: bookonunlucky13@... (bookonunlucky13)
>Subject: [turmel2step] Unlucky 13?
>To: turmel2step@yahoogroups.com

BOOK ON UNLUCKY 13 QUESTIONNAIRE

I am currently researching and writing a book on the number
13, which will include a section on 13 and games of chance.
If you have time, I would love to hear your opinions and
perspective on 13. Please feel free to copy the questions
below and email your reply to Bookonunlucky13@.... Write
as much or as little as you like. There are no right or
wrong answers.

JCT: A professional is supposed to ignore the date of the
game.

Your answers may be used in my book on 13; your reply grants
me permission to quote from or draw on your answers without
compensation. I will, of course, keep your identity/contact
information, etc., completely confidential.

Please feel free to forward this questionnaire to anyone you
know who may find it of interest. My goal is to write the
best book possible-- which means a book that accurately
reflects the full spectrum of people's opinions and beliefs
about 13. So the more people who respond the questionnaire,
the better. Thank you very much for your help.

Sincerely,

Nathaniel Lachenmeyer
Bookonunlucky13@...

QUESTIONS:

First, general background:

1. How old are you?

JCT: 52.

2. Where are you from?

JCT: Ontario French Canadian.

3. What is your level of education?

JCT: Bachelor of Engineering (electrical); 4 years post
graduate research as Teaching Assistant of Mathematics of
Gambling.

4. What is your occupation?

JCT: Political-Legal-Economic Combat Engineer financed by
professional poker as the TajProfessor.

Now, the important stuff:

5. Is 13 an unlucky number?

JCT: If it were, casino statistics would show it and they
don't.

6. Why or why not?

JCT: I really can't believe it matters. I have a close ally
who absolutely believes the number 13 has special powers
over other numbers. Sure, there should be 13 months because
there are 13 lunar cycles and why they only have 12 is more
a function of the 4 seasons being harder to divide into 13
for the common folk.

7. Have you had any personal experience with 13?

JCT: I took the biggest bath of my Blackjack card-counting
career at the Frontier Hotel back in 1974-5 on a Friday
13th. I just refused to let myself be superstitious and it
just kept getting worse and worse. But then it was a
profession where the number of hours was the only
determinant of my eventual win. Now, I'd call it a quits and
go do something else on a Friday the Thirteenth a lot
quicker.

8. If so, what?

JCT: Other than that, I've noticed no anomalies about 13 and
I'm sure the Roulette Wheel records would back me up.

9. How have your experiences influenced how you view 13?

JCT: I try to ignore it but one can't help wondering if
there are hexes in the paranormal we can't see. Messages
from TV broadcasters appear in my home without my seeing any
links. Who knows if souls in the Fifth Dimension can watch
us in the Fourth as Fourthers can watch those in the Third.
Darn, it needs explaining. Ignoring time as the other
dimension for a moment, draw a figure of a man on paper, in
2 dimensions. For your Three Dimension personage to enter
his Two Dimensional world, poke your finger through the
page. What does he see? From his dimension, looking at you,
all he sees is a flesh colored line where your body
intersects his dimension. Since he can't see out of his
plane.
So, souls could be watching our 3-dimensional bodies, or our
Fourth Dimensional activity through Time from their higher
dimensional viewpoint.
The only question is whether those souls can exert any
pressure on the Father to influence things in our world or
is it a fair game that they get to all bet on?

Odds are 2:1 that Earth pollutes itself beyond saving before
the UNILETS comes online to pay the unemployed to clean it
up, switch from petrochemicals to hemp and save ourselves.

Two times, the planet dies and only once does it survive to
become Eden. That's the Big Question that the Gaia of souls
could be betting on if the Father does not allow
interference in the Third Dimensional Casino. But if
cheerleading in Heaven has some effect on luck, I don't see
why they'd waste it on the number 13.

10. Please list any examples you have come across of the way
people, businesses, and society at large have responded to
13 (e.g., no 13th floor in an apartment building). Be as
specific as you can.

JCT: Good point about the apartments. The superstition is
that prevalent. I've seen many buildings that do not have a
13th floor. But I've never noticed it otherwise.

11. What are some famous incidents/events involving unlucky
13?

JCT: 13 lunar cycles in 12 months has to a have an esoteric
reason. Otherwise, I've never noticed.

12. Where does the belief that 13 is unlucky come from?

JCT: I'd have thought from the Friday the Thirteenth
Massacre of the Templar Knights in France is the reputed
story for the Friday. How the 13 itself came about, no idea.
Hope you find it and let us know.

14. How prevalent is the belief that 13 is unlucky?

JCT: How can anyone not have heard the fear? But how many
times does it come to a person's attention other than when
they're buying lottery tickets and then, those who pick the
"unlucky" number that wins as regular as the others gets the
higher odds. Lucky 13!

15. Are there other unlucky numbers? If so, what are they?

JCT: Can't say I've noticed any but can say the casino
statistics have not. Or I'd know and be wearing 13s all over
my tie instead of my Royal Flush.

16. Are there lucky numbers? If so, what are they?

JCT: It depends if the House rakes Snake-Eyes or Box-Cars.

17. Would you describe yourself as a superstitious person?

JCT: I'd describe myself as a religious person who accepts
the probability that the souls in the Gaia have a front row
seat to any show in the Universe and only the ones with an
uncertainty of outcome can draw the attention of the
wagering souls in cyberspace.

Remember that old Star Trek show when they fell under the
control of a bunch of Gods. "I'll wager 10 credits on Kirk"
says one, "I'll wager 20 credits on the other," says
another.

Only uncertainty can be good entertainment for souls
watching whether our planet lives or dies. And every
civilization needs to use money to be one, and money is
easily corrupted from a service device to a slavery device
just by getting the suckers to sign promising to repay 11
when they only borrowed 10 in existence. All planets must
pass through their usury debt slaveries and shake them off
before the final cataclysm, since only high-tech
communications can break the chains, or make the "Don't
Pass" gamblers the winners of that bet.

So, on the assumption that some kind of God is watching me,
all I can do is my best to become a liberated Son of God
that we all should strive to be. I guess it's just my
continual quarter century of political-legal combat with the
overseer forces of government working for the rich that
makes me such a pessimist in my own way.

18. If so, what are some of your superstitions?

JCT: I got the UNILETS blueprint for financial liberation
from our debts, the answers to Christ's Lord's Prayer,
"forgive us our debts" on the UN Millennium Declaration.
It's up to the nations to adopt the Time Standard of Money
software and that's a political process. I only hope we're
not already past the environmental "point of no return" and
the crowds in Heaven have already been paid off and gone on
to watch another planet where the same game of survival from
the scourge of usury is being played. Switching from fossil
fuels to hemp bio-mass is then possible as well as
reductions from no more need for New Zealand carrots to
compete with Canadian carrots in the Canadian marketplace
and no more need for Canadian carrots to compete with New
Zealand tomatoes in New Zealand. All the wasted transport
costs saved.

19. Please feel free to add anything else you might like to
say on the subject of 13.

JCT: Dealing with superstition is an incredible experience
that few, other than gamblers, must face on a regular basis.
To know you've made the optimal "bear-off" at Backgammon but
still lose is nevertheless reassuring. Had to be bad luck.
To know Jesus Christ himself could not come on down from on
high and do a bear-off any better than you just did is as
reassuring. But to think that he'd roll some extra box-cars
to win every time would be a travesty.

That's why saying he was some kind of God with special
powers over humans makes his facing the ordeal of the cross
that much less epic. "What? Me worry? I've got super powers
and I can't be kept dead." But like a skilled Shaman priest
who can walk on hot coals to face his ordeal as the epitome
of Man, now that's the epic story I want to remember him
for. Not that they say he did great parlor tricks and
violated the laws of physics. Mind over matter by a human,
wow. By a Clark Kent with super powers, not such an epic
story.

Thank you! Nathaniel Lachenmeyer
Bookonunlucky13@...

JCT: Let me know when it comes out and where people can get
it and I'll let my readers know.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

JCT: I was on the "The Big Breakfast" show on the Edmonton
A-Channel TV's this morning for about 5 minutes. The host is
running for the "Honorary" mayor of nearby Strathcona so
they were going to key on why guys who can't win run and why
I've run so many times. I was going to have to turn it into
a message about the prostitute media corrupting the real
story of the medpot wars, and probably try to get a plug for
LETS interest-free currency in too.
There's so much government spin that the yellow journalists
from CanWest News (Shannon Kari) and Canadian Press (Rick
Oliveira) have been putting out that I wasn't sure how I'd
be able to cope in correcting their misrepresentations.
Still, I had my chance to try to cover as many bases as I
could while satisfying their requirement to have a good
laugh for being the biggest political loser in the world.
And it would help if I could mention I was one of the
world's top winners at the poker tables eve if I was one of
the top losers at the polls. And perhaps leave them with the
hint I'm not the fool everyone expected from a stupid
engineer.

I couldn't tape the TV show but I taped my words. The
moderator introduced me and asked about my elections.

Turmel: Eight municipal ones over 24 years and in total, 54
federal, provincial and municipal.

JCT: When he asked about how many I'd won:

Turmel: Well, I hold the Guinness World Record for the
number of losses too. No, I never won.

JCT: He asked what advice I could give him in his campaign:

Turmel: Well, I've always found that trying to do
spectacular moves helps. I started my first election in '79
to legalize gambling because I'm a professional poker
player, and so I started getting busted running games. In
'93, I ran the biggest casino ever busted in Canadian
history. 28 tables, 155 employees. Pretty big bust.

AC: Sure is.;

Turmel: And then my next policy, well, I wanted to legalize
gambling, prostitution and marijuana because those are
victimless crimes. Ah, last month, on the 14th of May, I was
on Parliament Hill with 7 pounds of marijuana and I got
arrested there. Did you hear about that?

AC: Yes.

JCT: He must have asked why.

Turmel: Well, the point is that the Parker decision in 2000
says the law died for the whole country if the Government
didn't fix medical access. Now courts have said that the
Government screwed up complying with the Court's ruling so
that the law against the possession of marijuana is dead. Of
course, some media, only 2 reporters ever come to the cases,
say that it's only for 30 grams and less; and they say that
it's not all Canada, just in Ontario; and they say it's only
for possession, not for trafficking and cultivation. But
it's Canada-wide, it's for all offences, and it's for any
amount, if you go read the Parker decision. So that's why I
went on Parliament Hill with 7 pounds, enough to get me a
life sentence, to smoke my joint. 3 Keys is the number to
get a life sentence.

AC: Where you thinking about it when you did it?

Turmel; Was I thinking about it? The point is, I wanted to
make the move and point to the people that there is no more
limit on the possession of marijuana. The reporters can say
"under 30 grams" until their faces turn blue but it's no
limit. And I'm just making the point by getting arrested
with 3000 grams as the media tell Canadians it's only for
under 30.

AC: ???
JCT: At this point, he must have asked about economics:

Turmel: Have you heard of the Calgary or Edmonton LETS time
barter systems? Have you heard of the Calgary or Edmonton
LETS? The time barter systems.

AC: No.

Turmel: Okay, basically, start your city up a "Barter
Dollar" system, like the Toronto Dollars, Ottawa Ecos, and
basically, people join up, broke people, they list their
skills and now that you've given them all a loan of $500
Greendollars out of your new interest-free poker-chip bank,

AC: So I'd print up my own money?

Turmel: Basically, it allows people to do trades amongst
each other when they used to be broke. And that is why they
call this an anti-poverty system. Do a search on the net for
"anti-poverty engineer" and I come up because I was invited
to the United Nations in the Millennium Year to do the
presentation on the world banking system of the future that
I've been talking about for the last 25 years in my
elections. On top of gambling, prostitution and dope, in my
first election, they asked me about unemployment and I
figured out: interest rates is the problem. We need an
interest-free bank software and I helped design the LETS
which has spread around the world. So yes, if you pick up
the LETS software on the Internet and run a Strathcona
Dollar system, like the island of.. um, in BC, they just
talked about this BC island that's printing their own money.
You can do the same and at least get all your unemployed
people helping each other so they don't need to bug the
government for help. Look, LETS interest-free is the
solution to your economic problems and legalising personal
freedoms is the solution to our social ones.

AC: Thank you, John Turmel.

Turmel: Well, good luck. And if you talk about "contra," you
guys in the media call it "contra," but you sign up a whole
bunch of little unemployed people to work with you, you're
going to have a startling effect if you stake it seriously.
Give it a thought.

JCT: So that was my 5 minutes. I'm pleased I got all to
expose all three of Shannon Kari's and Rick Oliveira's Big
Lies several times, got out the biggest gambling bust, the
biggest personal possession marijuana bust, and the biggest
LETS interest-free banking system in the world to go with my
Guinness Record. Have to be happy to have drilled them with
a ton of info so rapid-fire that the moderator couldn't get
two words in edge-wise.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:17:44 -0300
>From: josh.bruce@... (Josh Bruce)
>Subject: Questions regarding your policies
>To: TURMEL@...

JB: I am 20 years old. I have never voted. The first
election I have been eligable for was the New Brunswick
provincial election last week. I did not get to vote because
I recently moved, and did not get my address changed in
time. Also, I currently dont believe that there is anyone
worth voting for.

JCT: So you do your citizen's duty by going to the poll and
officially declining your vote. I do it. That way, you have
done your civic duty and did not vote for someone who was
not going to help you anyway. I think not voting is a lot
brighter than voting to see if you pick the guy who wins,
the reason most booboisie vote.

JB: In my search to choose a party, I would appreciate  it
if you could answer a few quick questions on your policy.

JCT: First of all, I would state that my programs for the
past 10 years are at my website:
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/abprogs.htm
They don't change with the wind as if something better is
going to happen by where' already pushing the optimum.

JB: 1. Where do you stand on Official Bilingualism?

JCT: I don't mind official Trilingualism if we can afford
it.

JB: Should employers be forced to turn down applicants who
are not bilingual?

JCT: If their job description says "must be able to
communicate with French tourists," or who serve the public
in a bilinguan capacity, sure. But total liberty means
liberty for employers too.

JB: 2. Where do you stand on Same-sex marriages.

JCT: I'm against all marriages. I cut out a press clipping
years ago about research showing that "love starts to die
one the chain that takes lawyers to break has been
installed. Far less reason to try hard to please when your
mate can't leave. I'm in favor of everyone having the same
rights whether they are married or not.

JB: Should a church be allowed to turn down a same-sex
couple who wants to get married in that church?

JCT: Sure. Just like a bar should be able to insist they
want to have smokers. Why would any couple want to remain
part of an association that does not approve of their
companionship? Find another group that wants to celebrate
with you, not a group who don't and won't.

JB: 3. Where do you stand on the current insurance problem?
How would your party relieve the staggering insurance rates
and fix the problem for good?

JCT: I love this problem because it demonstrates how much
smarter I am than all the other politicians who never found
the solution. From Abolitionist Party Programs at
abprogs.htm you can find:

4) NO-FAULT SELF-INSURANCE PROGRAM:

The Abolitionist Party SELF-INSURANCE PROGRAM is the same
software as the DIVIDEND PROGRAM. Instead of dividing up the
interest diverted from the banks, it would divide up losses
due to accidents just like the old "barn-raising" custom
where neighbours helped rebuild the barn of a fire victim.
Once members are financially connected on a LETS database,
self-insurance would be immediately possible. Starting
small, it would be trivial for members to register the value
of the "deductible" portion of their automobile insurance
and share the pro-rated burden of any individual victim.
With a large enough database of members, it would be
possible to self-insure the "collision"  portion.
With a very large database, it would even be possible to
self-insure housing! If there was a $200,000 fire with 10
million people on the LETS database, we would key in the
value of the fire with the name of the victim and let the
computer collect 2 cents each and deposit it into the
victim's account. Today, we pay premiums in case we burn.
This program would let us pay as we burn, not up front. If
there were no fires, the program would not be used and there
would be no premiums.

My self-insurance software proves the superior social
engineering of The Engineer more patently than any other
program.

JB: 4. Where do you stand on relations with the United
States?  Both diplomatic and economic.

JCT: I think the United States have to be condemned for
their War Crimes; I think their President has to be
impeached for lying to put US soldiers in the line of fire
to safeguard his daddy's oil leases; and I think that
switching to LETS time-based currency allies us with
Argentina and the soon-to-be-many other nations resorting to
timetrading rather than the no-trading the present banking
software permits them.

JB: Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from
you. Sincerely, Josh Bruce

JCT: Well Josh, you found a political party with programs
to help the poor. I hope it's proven a pleasant surprise in
giving you an glimpse of how the world of future will look.

I'm engineering a world I want to live in. No debt growth
with all payments going against the principle of the debt,
no prohibitions on adult liberties that do not harm others,
and that's pretty well it.

So I want the liberty to gamble with no restrictions, the
liberty to get intoxicated with no restrictions if I want
with what I want, the liberty to get laid with no
restrictions, and interest-free loans from government while
I train and prepare to try to pay them back.

That's all my Heaven needs to be. If anyone wants it more
complicated than that before we get down to fixing it,
they'll have to explain why we should delay.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 613-562-0669 USENET: can.politics

JCT: Isn't it amazing that Brian McAllister had to go out
and be the first to use his new-found barrister powers while
the rest of Canada's lawyers sit idle?

>Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:36:25 -0600
>From: jgillam@... (Jim Gillam)
>Subject: [MedPot-discuss] 'Parade' of pot cases kicked out

Tuesday, June 03, 2003
Windsor Star (CN ON)
http://www.canada.com/windsor/
by Craig Pearson

CP: 'Parade' of pot cases kicked out
90 minutes, 22 dismissals

JCT: I'd hoped getting arrested smoking a joint on
Parliament Hill in possession of a life-imprisoning 7 pounds
of grass would break through the media blockade to inform
Canadians that the law was declared invalid and people
convicted under the invalid law deserve an apology.
Of course, prosecutions under the law should be dismissed
but lawyers are in charge of that game and it seems they
prefer business as usual. Except in Windsor, so it seems.

CP: The string of wide grins leaving Ontario Court No. 10
Monday afternoon hinted at the historic event inside as
Justice Micheline Rawlins dismissed 22 consecutive cases of
marijuana possession.

JCT: If this doesn't break through the media blockade,
nothing will.

CP: It was the largest wholesale dismissal of unrelated
marijuana charges in the province since judges started
tossing out cases of possession under 30 grams.

JCT: Brian's been saying that it's the media's insistence
that it only works for under 30 grams. So I wonder if he
used it for anyone with over 30 grams? Or does that battle
still need to be won?

CP: Mondays are drug-offence days in Windsor remand court,
which hears pleas and sets trial dates. But because several
lawyers planned to argue that their clients' cases should be
dropped, which is normally beyond the purview of remand
court, Rawlins agreed to hear them. Defence lawyer Brian
McAllister -- who started the trend in January when he
convinced Ontario Court Justice Douglas Phillip to dismiss
marijuana-possession charges against his 17-year-old client
-- made the initial argument Monday on behalf of another
client. He argued that since Superior Court Justice Steven
Rogin two weeks ago upheld the lower court ruling,
possessing less than 30 grams of marijuana is no longer
illegal in Ontario.

JCT: I wonder if that's what Brian said or if the reporter
is putting lawying words in his mouth. As long as they keep
saying that the Parker court only declared marijuana off the
list of banned substances for cases under 30 grams, and
expect to appear back for cases over 30 grams, I'm not out
of the woods.

CP: The Crown tried to have the cases stayed until a new
marijuana law can be implemented in Ontario, but Rawlins
agreed that possession under 30 grams is no longer illegal.

JCT: Boy, either this reporter is a repeatedly lawying or
Brian let them have the impression that it only applied to
under 30 grams. Please don't tell me he's accepting that
it's off the list for under 30 and on the list for over or
the Windsor Kid's white hat is looking a lot blacker to
someone in my shoes.

CP: In about 90 minutes, Rawlins rushed through case after
case, repeatedly reading a statement which said that the
cases are "lacking an allegation of any offence known to
law." In some cases, the accused had their marijuana-
possession charges dismissed, but still face other types of
charges. Most simply walked free. "I've never seen a parade
of people walking out of court with such big smiles on their
faces like that before," said McAllister. "This is exactly
what should happen. There's no prohibition on simple
possession of marijuana in Ontario and therefore no
offence."

JCT: Sounds like he thinks the list shows marijuana deleted
sometimes and not deleted others. I guess my only recourse
will be to ask the court to show me the list with it off for
section 4 before I ask the court to show me the list with
it now on for section 5.
Strange how my case keeps the aim on goal. If I weren't
demanding that the substance be off the list so traffickers
and growers also go free, these proceedings would leave
everyone with the impression that a "sometimes-on sometimes-
off" document could be logical. But because I can't rest
without the prohibition applying to all of us, the fight
will go on no matter who agrees with the Windsor report that
it's only for under 30 grams.

CP: McAllister predicted marijuana-possession charges will
be dismissed en masse until a new law is enacted.

JCT: Sounds like Alan Young's one-year delay of the
declaration that the Parker decision had taken effect on
Aug. 1 2001 that Parker was asking for let them get their
legislation just under the wire. What would they have done
if the Young had not worked with the Government to get the
Pitt decision that the Government's MMAR had not complied
with the ruling of the court to get them that extra year?
People would have dared smoke it in the streets and they'd
have never turned the masses back. But Alan Young's
successfully ensuring that the Parker motion to invalidate
the law did not proceed gained the the Government the year
they needed to keep everyone scared.
And 30 pieces of silver isn't even worth that much these
days.

CP: "If a person is caught with, say, two joints, I don't
think it's fair to get a criminal record," said one smiling
man who walked free Monday.
Jim Leising, director of federal prosecutions in Ontario for
the Department of Justice, confirmed Monday's proceedings
were the first time marijuana-possession charges have been
dismissed in bulk and said his office is working quickly to
have a new drug law implemented.

JCT: Notice that that part's already been done. Just last
week though they're still trying to lull abolitionists with
the protests of the prohibitionists who won't let it
through. As I've said repeatedly, and now as it's finally
been exposed, it's there now so they can move fast to
recriminalize before the masses claim their rights in the
streets. As long as the resisters are always virtually alone
in their fight in the courts, it's easy. But masses, even
small masses, doing it down at police stations and at
legislatures, demonstrating the not-impairing effects of its
intoxication, can set course that no one will derail.
Imagine if we'd had a whole year that Alan Young cost us to
turn those consenting masses into the streets. If we had had
that year to find out the same thing they found out in
Holland and elsewhere, liberty could never be reversed. But
because of our Judas of the Judiciary, the Professeur
Saboteur, we've got the new law threatening us before we
even got to realize that we are now free.
If they put their prohibitionist chains back on us in
the next few months, it will totally be Alan Young's fault
for having gone to the Parker hearing in secret
collaboration with the Attorney General's lawyer, to "ensure
that Turmel's motion to invalidate the law would not
proceed." And the only way to do that was to get the Pitt
decision that said the Government had not complied and that
the law was now dead, set aside. By an equivalent-level
judge who didn't have jurisdiction. But he convinced her to
over-stretch her jurisdiction to take away our first
judicial opinion that the Government had failed to comply
with the law.
Oh right. Alan Young did get Justice Lederman 9 months later
to ruled that the Government had not complied with the law.
Thanks a lot for the deferred victory, Cannabis Culture's
hero.

CP: "What's been happening elsewhere is the charges have
either been adjourned or stayed,"he said. "This is the first
I've heard they're just dismissed outright.

JCT: The lawyers in Ottawa are still booking trials. I guess
they don't keep up on the latest case law like non-lawyers
do. Or it's just to profitable that they can't bare telling
their clients until they find out themselves.

JCT: I just found out that Marc Emery, Alan Young's major
supporter and major suppressor of important medpot news, has
now conceded publicly that John Turmel was right when I said
that prohibition died on Terry Parker Day almost two years
ago:

>Date: Mon Jun 02 2003 09:45 PM
>From: Marc Scott Emery   Prince of Pot
>Subject: Re: The end is near...

ME: If judges are really dismissing charges, then that is
BIG NEWS!

JCT: BIG NEWS is not something the Prince of Pot Rot has
covered too well recently. I have pointed out numerous
omissions that hurt sick and dying people, suppressing Terry
Parker's personally-won Pitt decision even though it made
the National Post was one big Judas move, but suppressing
Marc Paquette's personally-won exemption extensions, thus
letting over 600 exemptees who could not comply with the new
regulations to hit the wall with expiring exemptions and not
tell them those exemptions could be extended with a simple
family doctor's signature. I wonder if he's going to try to
bury this BIG NEWS too?

ME: The summer of legalization may be upon us! The new
RECRIM bill won't pass until November.

JCT: Oh, he now admits the law's been dead since some time
ago and that the new law is a recrim, not decrim, attempt.
That's what I've been saying for the past year since he
started his suppressions. Maybe he's not a narc mole, maybe
he's just a slow-learner.

ME: Can Parliament put the genie back in the bottle?! WE
have to make RECRIM die in Parliament and exercise our new
liberty with gusto (thanks, Mr. McAllister!).

JCT: But Chicken Balls is claiming, like the Government and
media, that it's only good in Ontario, not in his part of
the country. It's up to Ontarians to be daring, not up to
West Coast flock of chicken balls.

ME: I hope the mainstream media trumpets this decision!

JCT: I worry more about Cannabis Culture censoring another
important story again. One of his readers has caught on to
what I've been trying to explain to the slow-learners:

>From: Sonnenschein
>Subject: Re: The end is near...
>Date: Mon Jun 02 2003 10:50 PM

S: Marc, maybe we should just be quiet about this for
now.... Maybe its a good idea not to let anybody know its
legal till this recrim bill fails in parliament, because
thats how it looks right now (doomed to fail).. and if the
politicians get wind of the legality of pot in ontario,
that'll drive them to vote for the bill no matter how bad it
is..

JCT: Tada. The government's hidden agenda all along. But the
problem isn't that'll drive them to vote for the bill no
matter how bad it is because the politicians just got wind
of the legality of pot in ontario, it's that it will drive
them to vote for the bill because always they knew - since
I've been screaming "Terry Parker Day" in their faces since
Aug. 1 2001 - of the legality of pot in CANADA.
It's not a time to hush it so they may not find out what our
side just found out, it's time to blare it so they know we
know what everyone is going to find out.

S: I dunno,.. i'm fairly cynical about all of this...

JCT: You're not being cynical enough.

S: the politicians in ottawa clamour so much about teaching
good science in today's schools and they never use it when
making decisions, very sad state of affairs when elected
officials work on emotion

JCT: But we've discovered their hidden agenda, early. Maybe
there's still something that we can do to avert
recriminalization but keeping quiet hoping they don't know
they need their bill won't work for guys who already know
that they do.

>From: Orchidman
>Subject: Re: The end is near...
>Date: Tue Jun 03 2003 03:45 AM

O: Brian, You really are the star now. This news is
absouletly stupendous. If the police lay charges in the
future, does this lay them open to a lawsuit for false
arrest?

JCT: The better question for Brian is if everyone convicted
under this now-declared unconstitutional law deserves to
have their conviction expunged or if a conviction under an
unconstitutional law should remain on people's records.

O: I can just imagine the fun we are going to have on
Canabus Day, July 1st, here in Toronto. I think you should
load up Windsor with Americans from Detroit. The Windsor
casino never looked better.

JCT: It's supposed to impair your mental faculties but take
from the world's winningest poker players that it does not.
Though, as the cops love to say, it certainly does people
more dangerous. In my case, not to you but certainly to your
bankroll. My favorite put-down of Bill Gates-type rich dudes
who think their bankroll impresses is to inform them that
their bigger bankroll only means that it's going to take me
a while longer to break them. Who is going to keep
thinking their money is impressing me? And I'm a pauper. But
I can tailor my bankroll and play at low enough stakes for
an acceptable safety-factor and watch my bankroll double,
and double, and double, and double, until I'll break
anyone's bankroll.
There's that boastful Turmel again. Hey, it compensates for
my Guinness record that lets people call me the "World's
Biggest Loser."

O: I am concerned, though, on the implications of this
ruling on the rest of Canada. I know you disagree with me
when I say that this ruling (The Parker Ruling) is Canada
wide.

JCT: No kidding. Brian's doesn't think the reach of the
Ontario Court of Appeal in Parker, non-appealed to the
Supreme Court of Canada, now binds lower court judges in
other provinces. Well, when the Parker victory was declared
in the media in 2000, everyone said that it they did not
comply with the decision, it would strike down the law for
all of Canada. I'm sure I could even find tapes of Alan
Young saying the same thing even though he's now talking out
of the other side of his face.
But if Kid Windsor says the Parker decision doesn't apply
Canada-wide and all those people who said so before they
found out the Government would blow it were wrong, then I
certainly would like to hear why. Of course, just as I stand
unchallenged in my banking systems engineering suggestions,
I've stood unchallenged on why it's Canada wide. I've
explained many times why I think it's Canada-wide and though
I know of many who say it is not, I wasn't too worried
because none of them could explain why they disagreed with
me. So, though I'm saddened to think that Brian thinks
Parker is a lesser-than-national victory, I'm also content
to know he has never been able to say why. To contradict me,
anyway.

O: If it is not Canada wide, then how do we get it Canada
wide?

JCT: If a Province's highest court, non-appealed, isn't,
then we can't. You can't appeal into the Supreme Court of
Canada from a victorious acquittal. You can only go higher
from a conviction. So if the government doesn't appeal their
loss, then it used to be presumed that it was not overturned
and help for the whole country.
Another reason that helps. In many of my cases, I used case
law from the Court's of Appeal of other provinces that were
not appealed. They were the precedents ruling the judge. Sad
to think the theory of case law may not apply to marijuana
cases.

O: I know a few provinces have charges on hold based on
equality. This doesn't seem very strong to me. Does each
province have to fight charges through the system before the
law falls in the rest of Canada?

JCT: That would be awful stupid, wouldn't it? Which is the
reason that there's a Supreme Court of Canada if the Crown
wants to keep fighting in other jurisdictions. Had the Crown
appealed the Parker decision, sure, the Crown would then
argue in other provinces that it's being appealed. Just like
did in other provinces waiting for the Rogin decision.
Because, non-appealed, his decision would be binding on
lower courts. Since they have appealed, it's not binding
yet. But any privileges won in Ontario via the Parker
Ontario Court of Appeal decision have to be the same
privileges available to all other provinces.
So, no, the law doesn't make them do such a silly thing. And
I am right that it is Canada wide to avoid the same
problem you properly pointed out.

>From: Orchidman
>Subject: Re: The end is near...
>Date: Tue Jun 03 2003 04:48 PM

O: In stead of writing letters that just get thrown in the
garbage, make an appointment to go and visit your MP face to
face.

JCT: And if he won't take you seriously, tell him you're
going to vote for Marc-Boris St-Maurice's one-issue
Marijuana Party of Canada. That's should get him quaking in
his boots. It's actually a good idea whether you represent a
valid political threat or whether he finds opposition from a
party with a never-elected Leader-for-life and only one
issue so laughable he falls on the floor and hurts his
sides.

O: Every voter has their own MP and there are times when
they have office hours. I say if every marijuana smoker in
Canada, all the millions of us, went to see their MP there
would be no time for them to do anything else and after they
all had thousands of visits espousing the benefits of
marijuana, they might be influenced to vote in our favour.

JCT: But there's no reason to change their minds, just hire
more staff.

O: Or you might want to go in there disguised as a
prohibitionist. If every visitor promised to vote for them
and contribute $20 to their campaign fund if they vote
against the bill, they might take notice.

JCT: You're again joking about the most serious issue. It's
a deke. You're falling for a deke. Do you know what that
means. They need this new law and to keep you dulled, they have
their people to mount the opposition to it until the last
minute when it fades away and there is no real opposition
and it goes through with no fight. It's just as if you
tried to defend against me basketball. I'd come straight at
you, then make a deke to the right extending the ball as far
out in that direction as I could and when you moved with the
ball, even the man, I'd switch direction pulling the ball
back and going through no resistance to score.
All everyone hears is that the prohibitionists are all
working to oppose the bill that's going to give them what
they really want. It's an act to deke you out of opposing
the shot. Like getting Alan Young to help people in their
cases so he can sell them out at the last minute. Same
idea. They need the new prohibition. Sounding like they
don't want it is an act.
Wake up rubes, or they'll take away YOUR pot.

O: You could even come down hard on the devil weed and feed
their own ignorance. Every vote against the new law counts,
it doesn't matter how you get it.

JCT: Quit kidding yourself. You can't fool them when they're
busy fooling you. As FDR (US president Roosevelt) once said:
"Nothing in politics happens by accident. If it happens, you
can bet that it was planned that way."
The legislation to steal our 2-year-old medpot victory
before most even accepted that we had won did not happen by
accident. If the legislation to recriminalize has happened,
you can bet that it was planned that way."

O: If you tell them you will vote against them and work with
their opponents and contribute to their opponents if they
vote for the bill, they might take notice.

JCT: Yes, until you tell them it's for Marc-Boris St-Maurice
and his Rhino adviser Charlie Mackenzie and their one-issue
party and then he might take notice, but probably with a big
grin.
Of course, tell him your party is also going to create jobs
for everyone with Turmel's LETS Local Employment-Trading
Software, with or without marijuana legalization, then he'll
have a real reason to take notice because no one's laughing
at interest-free community currencies anymore, except for
Marc Emery of the BC Marijuana Party and his stooge Boris in
the federal party.

O: If there were 4 million visits, I think this could make
an impression.

JCT: You are right that all the medpot smokers would make a
potent political force. But that's the reason why the put
Emery and Boris in. To make sure people don't take a
political solution seriously. All your suggestions are
useful but not when your political champions are working for
the other side.

O: If every pot smoker invested 1 1/2 hours of time we could
win this battle.

JCT: No, as long as the political route is covered by narc
saboteurs, it's just talk that can be safely ignore.

O: There is nothing illegal or unusual about this method and
nobody can come up with any excuses. These people are
supposed to work for us. If all they ever get is a visit
from the priest, then how are they to know what we want.

JCT: Wasting their time will never work. Even if you have
the right. They're being paid to listen and throw you off.
They are the shield, the steel boot, that you can expend
your energies against but never win. Only real political
threat can move 150 Liberals who are funded by the
prohibitionist industries. You think a line-up at the door
can compete against funding from industry? Not a chance.

O: We have to train our MP's to work for us. Normal people
will not bother to visit their MP. They probably see only a
few people a week. Even a few dozen people could make quite
an impression.

JCT: Wish I could agree. But I doubt anything but the threat
from a bloc of voters can matter as much as funding.

O: If an MP feels that his voters want him to vote against
the bill, he will. We just have to get that message across
to them.

JCT: If an MP votes against the bill, the Prime Minister
doesn't sign his next nomination papers and he can't run as
a Liberal. Or get Liberal Party funding for his race. What
he feels a few voters want isn't even in consideration as
against leader's approbation and political funding. Not a
chance. And that's how the system works. That's how the men
who own the PM control the whole party. It's the way
Election Canada makes politics work in Canada. It's designed
that way.

>Subject: Why is the Media not saying its legal?
>Date: Tue Jun 03 2003 11:53 AM
>From: MPoA

MP: Why is the Media not saying that there is no marijuana
Laws?

JCT: When the only people the media controllers select to
interview are Alan Young and Alison Myrden, what do you
want, our best cards to come out? Why do you think they
stayed away from Turmel like the plague and concentrate on
anyone who would not mention the Rogin decision in every
breath? Why didn't Young and Myrden ever mention the subject
of today's great victory? The media isn't saying there is no
marijuana laws because their media moles aren't saying it.

MP: Is all the Media but Pot-TV bought, all of them? the
Radio, TV and Papers?

JCT: Marc Emery's Pot-TV is your paragon? Did they mention
Parker's Pitt victory? Did they mention the extension of
exemptions for 600 worried exemptees? And you consider
them the cream of the crop. So far, seems to be sour cream.

>From: hopefulcanadian
>Subject: Why is the Media not saying its legal?
>Date: Tue Jun 03 2003 12:23 PM

H: I have noticed that too. They are getting informed by the
cannabis community, but they are still choosing to ignore
it.

JCT: They are not being informed by the cannabis community
that they let speak on TV! Alan Young and Alison Myrden
never mentioned our big Rogin victory. Why should the
reporters who picked them to be our spokespeople?

H: I think they are afraid. That is what I picked up on from
the videographer last wednesday.

JCT: Please. Nothing in politics happens by accident. If the
media won't tell about our big cards, it's been planned that
way. Restricting interviews to the Youngs of the movement
was part of the plan. And sure, they're afraid of their
employers if they let out any truths that they weren't
supposed to.

H: We told her all about what is going on in Ontario, and we
gave her pot tv's address, we told her that this information
needed to be shared, and when the story aired, they left
most of the pot info out, and did not even give the info
out.

JCT: Giving them Pot-TV's address, the guys who never
covered Parker and Paquette may have worked against rather
than for your attempt to educate them.

H: You could tell by the anchors mannerisms, voice,
everything, that she did not approve of the story.... Not
very optimistic, but yet, I still think I can get through to
the videographer.

JCT: Sounds like professor Cammy at CFRA. He's completely
misinformed and is proud of it. It lets him worry
disapprovingly out loud without having to cite anything he
is worried about.

H: She was intrigued, and definately sees the story
potential here. She would be the first across Canada, to
blow it open. Peace and Love, Sarah

JCT: Imagine having trouble blowing open the story of the
law against possession of marijuana being dead. These noses
for news, even with their years in university studying
investigative journalism, still can't sniff out the biggest
cannabis story in the world. Could be not accidental.
They're part of the political process. Heck, they run it.
They decide who gets on political debates and who does not.
So you can bet that their lack of interest in breaking the
world's biggest drug story, that the whole law is gone in
the whole of Canada, has been planned that way.

>From: MPoA
>Date: Tue Jun 03 2003 12:48 PM
>Subject: Why is the Media not saying its legal?

MP It could be because the Media is biased, and not at all
impartial as they all "Claim" to be. If they were, we would
be hearing all over the place how Marijuana is an offence
unrecognized by law right now, that way the police
everywhere would know not to break the law and illegally
arrest someone. Yes, it looks like the Media is note being
what they claim to be...

JCT: Yes, they're in on the lawying to us too.

MP: They covered the end of ww1, ww2, etc, etc...

JCT: But not how and why they started. The point is that it
is the media's function to pass along government lies, look
like they believe it so we should too. Remember the CBC
anchor looking so convinced as he announced that the MMAR
had finally arrived to provide the first easier legal access
to medpot in the world. Years later, we learned it didn't
work. Didn't stop the cheerleading squad at the time. Watch
CNN and Fox news for the best examples, (they got a majority
of the American sheeple to believe that there were killing
Iraqis in revenge for 9-11. We know that secular Saddam
doesn't even like religious Osama "CIA Bin" Laden but
somehow, the US media got Americans to forget that.

And just imagine how the Government would have been in
disarray if Superior Court Justice Chapnik had been forced
to agree with Superior Court Justice Pitt that the
government had not complied with the Parker ruling last year
if Alan Young had not ensured the Parker motion to
invalidate the law would not proceed until Superior Court
Justice Rogin just finally ruled the same as Justice Pitt.

Alan Young bought the government the year they needed to get
the recriminalization legislation ready. Kid Windsor's
string of victories happened after they had tabled the new
prohibitions. He could have had that same string based on
the Pitt decision way back in April 2002 before they were
ready to table the new prohibitions.

So let's see if Alan's Young buying the Government that year
lets them get the new prohibition rushed in now in ways that
are planned that way but look like they happened by
accident. "Ooops, all those Liberals and Alliance MPs who
were so against the new bill decided to go along."

All in the name of protecting our children from the Reefer
Madness that a likely flood of Killer Weed will produce.

That's what's planned to happen not by accident.

Geez, I love tormenting Alan Young. Glad he lost his job.
Looks good on him. And best of all, I heard in the CBC
report that he's not even a lawyer anymore, the reason the
media keep saying Leora Shemesh argued the case and Young
only advises. Even though he keeps getting to stick his two
cents in.

Well, no more. I'm going to object to anyone who is not a
paid-up member of the bar or representing themselves
participating in our Lede

PS I could be back on UNILETS banking systems engineering
sooner than I'd hoped.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/05/29/2003053140

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: After having my motion to quash my marijuana possession
charge dismissed was a bummer. Good appeal coming up though.
But I looked back at my mail and found an encouraging note
that I never responded to. I do get friendly mail but
Rob posted it to USENET so I'll comment:

>From: Rob (robandstef2000@...)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Moles in the Medpot Movement?
>Newsgroups: alt.support.mult-sclerosis, york.general, york.announce
>Date: 2002-10-16 22:03:48 PST

R: John, I dont know if you read replys,

JCT: I try but unless they include the alt.fan.john-turmel
Usenet newsgroup, I sometimes miss a response.

R: but what you are doing is a good thing. And you are
certainly right in believing that you have moles within your
organisation. Its financially beneficial for it to be done,
so it is done.

JCT: That's my understanding too. Why wouldn't the guys with
all the money have moles everywhere. I would if I was them.
But it's a scary thought for most people to contemplate
because it demands resistance and most people would rather
fold.

R: Money and control. Thats what you are fighting, and being
somewhat paranoid about the matter isnt illogical. You
certainly have powerfull commercial interests whose goals
are diametrically opossed to yours. They have BILLIONS and
countless employee's and you are one man.

JCT: But I'm tinkering not with them but with their control
system, the LAW. How many people does it take to convince a
judge with the power to make things just to do it? Sure,
billions would help, heck, even hundreds. But the millions
amongst whom they've sown discord are lost to the war so if
one person is going to take on the fight, it may as well be
a fight that one person can win. That's why you don't see
working on molotov cocktails or tearing down fences at
demonstrations, but running for political power to do
justice or trying to convince judicial power to do justice.
Something one man can win at.

R: And one man, who does something besides sitting,
thinking, and bitching can accomplish pretty much whatever
he likes.

JCT: If he's right.

R: For as long as Ive seen your presence on the web I havent
thought you could succeed in seeing the laws in canada
enforced.

JCT: I'm disappointed in the functioning of the judicial
system too and think it might still take a political
solution to stop the genocide. Imagine all those judges who
had the power and did not stop the deaths. On the record.
With a K-slab responsibility of 10 Canadian, 2000 world-
wide, dead epileptics a day who will be saved once
prohibition of cannabis is abolished.

All these judges take refuge in their vague legal semantics.
I didn't act because it was supposed to be on blue paper and
not on white, that's the reason thousands of extra
epileptics died. And they think it's going to stand up in
our new millennium world? People died because the "i"s
weren't dotted, or the "t"s weren't crossed? Or that "they
say prohibition of less than 30 grams violates Parker's
right to life but not the prohibition of 31"?

So, though I keep bashing my head against the judicial wall,
I'm not optimistic I'll ever happen to get a judge with
brains or balls. And I'm not optimistic about the political
wall. They've got their narc Marijuana Party of Canada to
make sure medpot supporters don't help me politically and
you know it's run by the Young-Emery "keep-the-law" crowd
and they're never going to let it go Abolitionist.

So you're absolutely right in your estimate that the odds of
getting prohibition abolished while the government and
courts have so many ways to delay salvation are really high
against. Odds are we'll be prohibited from smoking marijuana
when the Bush World-Wide Patriot Act takes over Canada and
we never again enjoy this brief chance (today while the law
is dead) before they make it illegal all over again.

Still, the court did fall down on the job when they handed
down a decision that would make them erase all the
convictions! Of course, you'll never hear the medpot
champions who the media select to do the talking mention
it's now legal and convictions should be erased.

The good thing is that as we watch Alan Young on TV, Paul
Burstein, Marc Emery, Alison Myrden, we realize that by
their failure to play the strongest cards when they are on
the ice, their failure to shoot at the goal with the best
shots, that failure convicts them of the charges I make.

Alison Myrden will soon be speaking for the movement:

>From: "Alison Myrden" <myalison@...>
>Sent: May 26, 2003 9:07 AM
>Subject: [CCC] CBC's The Current: Tuesday May 27, 2003
>
> Was just talking to Rosie @ CBC and he said "The Current"
> will run his piece on Growers tomorrow morning.
> Over the next week or so CBC Radio's lineup "The House",
> "The Current", CBC Daily and Evening News and MANY others
> will run pieces from Growers to Medical Users and
> everything in between. WE will also be part of that.

JCT: Will she announce that the possession law is dead in
Canada or not? Judge the tree by the fruit. Every time they
talk about trying to beat the law, it reinforces the
implication that it is still alive, that it is not dead.
That's the evidence of sabotage. There's the evidence of
treason to the movement.

> Also, I was asked to CBC Studios (for Tuesday 1pm -3pmish)
> to speak about the New Decrim Law that will come down from
> Parliament. We are to go LIVE either in the CBC Studio
> with Nancy Wilson in Toronto, or via Satellite with
> Kathleen to Vancouver.

JCT: Nancy Wilson and Alison Myrden. There are two leading
contenders for the John Turmel Non-Fan Club. Nancy Wilson,
while with Global TV, once shot off her mouth about me and I
shut it up when she had to pay me $6000 in a slander suit.
In the mid 1980s when it was worth more.

It also accounts for the nasty reception I received when I
did my CBC interview a few elections ago and her buddy, a
lady host, asked if after my Guinness Record for losses
meant I had a tattoo somewhere that said "Loser." I didn't
know Nancy Wilson was the absent cohost and only found out
later to realize that it was a "Wilson" barb or I'd have
riposted: I beat Nancy Wilson out of Six Grand in a slander
suit for shooting off her mouth so who's the loser?

Ah well, I missed my chance then. Just got it now.

> I also have to go to TCC to pick
> up some Meds and will have a CBC Producer (toys in hand)
> come with me for this before going on Air.
> I have been asked to be a part of a Discovery Channel
> Documentary on Multiple Sclerosis in the near future.
> Those with MS please contact me...Deb you're on the
> list...;o)
> I also spoke to Bob Marshall at McLean's and they ARE
> going to do a story at some point.  They are SWAMPED with
> SARS and Mad Cow at the moment, but are trying to get to
> it soon....so hang in there folks.... LOTS coming - BE
> READY !!   Alison

JCT: All this air play and I bet Alison's going to steer the
country wrong. Not tell them that Lederman means the law is
dead for the merit reason just like Rogin means the law is
dead for the technical reason. Not announce the victory
which keeps the slaves docile while they reinstall the
prohibition chains. Thanks Alison, in advance, for selling
us out. And please, prove me wrong.

So back to Rob.

R: In fact, I was so sure the financial interests opposing
you, would succeed in imprisoning you, that I was just
waiting for the announcement.

JCT: And now I've given them a reason. But I've always
thought I'd be much more trouble to them fomenting righteous
revolution from behind the bars with no distractions. I'll
got wherever optimal strategy leads me.

R: I was sure they would have eliminated you by now. I was
wrong.

JCT: I started to feel safe once LETS had taken solid roots
around the world. No matter how small or big they are, they
are banks full of real money available to everyone interest-
free, not charity, at an instant's notice. During the G8 in
Koln with 5000 reporters in town making accommodations cost
over $200US per night, I paid for 4 nights with four IOUs
for a night's accommodations back home in Ottawa. That debt
is a piece of money promising an evening's accommodations in
Ottawa Canada and worth the same value to anyone in the
world. So once the LETS "good virus" had taken hold,
shooting me would only have brought attention to what I gave
my life for. Abolishing the Theft of interest from the poor
to the rich. Since I'm on the wrong side of the equation.
Though my gambling skills could have easily kept me on the
other.

Once I got invited to make the presentation on the banking
system of the new Millennium at the United Nations
Millennium Declaration, then I really started to feel safe.
If the forces that be are going to let me upgrade the
banking system software to work on a pure service charge
with the interest charge abolished, then the financial
framework is set to permit those industries threatened by
the legalisation of marijuana, the tree, not the flower,
will have no reason to fund the 150 Liberals and their ilk
to keep it illegal and I won't face life imprisonment for an
adult choice I wish to make no more.

So, fixing the financial system permits the abolition of the
prohibitions meant to bedevil the slaves. Freeing the slaves
makes the need to torment them so they're so busy worrying
about their bo-bos to worry about their chains come to an
end.

It's a nice world coming, with plenty to go around, and no
matter how bad it looks if the Bush dictatorship isn't
stopped by the Americans themselves, Lord knows Canada
can't, Big Money owns George and if they're going to let me
fix the banking system capable of switching Hell into
Heaven, they're not going to let George then turn the planet
into a nuclear wasteland.

With their control system over the debt slaves now
internetized, the people who own the world must realize that
the greatest threat to their yoke of oppression is the
Banking Systems Software Engineer. And not only am I not
shot after 24 years of war but they let me into the UN to
install the LETS design of the Debt Liberation system on the
Millennium Declaration. Sure, it could be a fluke that the
Engineer who is going to disarm them of their financial
power got a chance to declare his new blueprint on the soon-
to-be world's Guinness Record Most Important Document, one
up on the rights of the Magna Carta, and the NGOs got the
chance to endorse it, even if they still haven't yet set up
a working LETS among them. Yet. Just was reminded that that
was my ultimate goal at the UN, to have the NGOs run UNILETS
until the UN took over. Never got that far.

So I never thought that taking on the medpot liberation was
that much of a threat once I'd gotten past getting the debt
liberation on the UN agenda.

R: Thank heavens. Kudos big guy, and keep up the good fight.

JCT: Much appreciated, including for the danger I did feel
in earlier years. I'd read about monetary reformers getting
shot, some "accidented," others maybe "suicided." Lincoln
set up a national LETS interest-free Greenback dollar system
but was shot with interest soon creeping back into American
accounting. Kennedy too was going to pump new interest-free
Silverdollar notes into circulation and was shot. First
thing Johnson killed when he was president. Then he started
the Viet Nam war to increase the national debt.

But speaking of rats and moles in politics, I think the
greatest rats in the monetary reform movement were Ernest
Manning and his son Preston Manning. Having been taught by
Bible Bill Aberhart how a provincial LETS could solve all
their province's financial woes, Aberhart died and Ernest
took over to kill all real initiatives to install interest-
free provincial currency and was rewarded with a Senate
Seat, the only Social Crediter I know who was ever so
rewarded. And it wasn't for helping the movement.

Payback time. Exposure for all those who now understand how
debt growth enslaves, how usury causes poverty. Ernest
Manning was responsible for turning the Social Credit Party
of Alberta away from their stated goal after "clean-living,
football-hero Aberhart died. The rise of Social Credit among
the poor in Alberta during the Great Depression is one of
the most inspiring movement stories I've ever read. The
reason you can't find info on it any more.

Bible Bill was one of the first radio-preachers and he
preached Bible Monetary Reform. There's tons of good
teachings on debt and economics in the Bible and I've put
much to verse at
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombible.htm
People in the direst poverty have kitchen meetings learning
how they're being enslaved with the promise of a Provincial
LETS and a $25 a month dividend from the interest they'd
save to sweep the legislature in an explosive drive to
power. One of the greatest democratic victory against all
financial odds in world history. By the Great Bible Bill
Aberhart. Now that I think of it, my hero. Then Mohammed
Ali.

But Bible Bill blew it and I'll not be soft. When he
proposed his provincial LETS to help Albertans cope with
they Great Depression, the Feds took him to the Supreme
Court on the grounds the Bank Act says that only they could
issue the chips, and the provinces couldn't issue their own
bank chips even if the Feds weren't doing it right. I've got
a link to the pictures of the judges of the Supreme Court of
Canada at that time who declared Aberhart's provincial
currency unconstitutional and forced everyone to remain in
dire poverty while at the same time, the Supreme Court of
Austria had also ruled that the community currency used by
the town of Worgl to reach full employment had to stop and
everyone go back to being unemployed again. At least, the
Austrians had a taste of a no-usury money system before
their judicial judases put their debt chains back on. In
Alberta, the Supreme Court made sure they never even got to
take their debt chains off.

In both cases, the mayor of Worgl and the premier of Alberta
failed to find the run-around of their block.
Alberta had the eminent right to go to New York to sell a
$1,000,000 bond at 10% interest in exchange cash to pay
government workers. So did Worgl.
Alberta had the right to try to sell the bond at 5% interest
if they could get it.
Alberta could try to sell a smaller $100,000 bond at 5%. Or 2% if
they could get it for cash to pay for work.
Alberta could try to sell a $10 bond at 0% to pay for work.

This is exactly what the Argentinian Provinces did in the
mid 1980s and when they printed up small denomination bonds
and paid workers directly with them in exchange for work.
And everyone could pay their taxes with them so everyone
took them. That's how money should work.

So, there was a way around the Judicial Judases who kept
Albertans and Austrians in debt slavery, and both failed to
find it. Too bad. That's life. That's history. Real history.
The history that counts. They history that's been erased.

And final point on rats to a cause, some incredible turn-
arounds have occurred in the interest-free money reform
movement, guys who should know better harming the drive
towards freedom. Casting doubts on whether interest-free
systems can perform as well as the interest-bearing one.
(that keeps breaking down). Supposed anti-bank heroes
switching their tunes off-key at the last minute. Highly-
placed moles sacrificing their careers and reputations for
no reason.

When the Government pulled Alan Young into Parker hearing to
ensure that my motion to invalidate the law would not
proceed, he sacrificed his cover. But only because was that
close to winning. His Pitt decision was force on Justice
Chapnik which explains why Young twice tried to let me take
care of handling the Pitt decision. He wanted to have our
victory set aside without my being there and when I said no,
he was then introduced by the Crown to scuttle our case.
They only blow their covers when we're close. There's no
reason to expose themselves when we're not close.

So now, some of the bigger names in the local currency
movement, Bernard Lietaer, Tom Greco, Cal Schindel, guys I
thought were abolitionists do turn-arounds and get in the
way of the message of a global solution. For these guys to
publicly oppose the UNILETS that could save the world means
there are undercurrents evoked these moles into opposing the
answer, just like they evoked Young to sabotage Parker's
hearing when they needed him.

Incredible, isn't it? Guys who have never stood up to me
once in their lives all of a sudden becoming mouthy knowing
they are contradicting The Engineer and knowing what I've
done to contradictors of the banking systems engineering in the past. I
cannot imagine what's going on that would make
them throw away their covers and reputations. Hope it's
Jerusalem LETS making peace between Semites cousins. But
whatever it is, seeing these champions self-destruct
seems like some desperate gamble to halt something I'm not
even aware of yet.

I do know that the people who want to be able to trade their
credits globally are winning the day and building software
to organize themselves no matter what the doubters say or
do. Remember, the day the consciousness of the Internet
masses twigs to the fact that they can create their own
banks online and have their banks make them loans they can
pay back with no interest, there'll be a stampede to make
the Time Standard of Money Declaration of Acceptance, put up
their shingle of goods and services offered and wanted, and
in no time, 300 million banks online, each capable of
funding a whole village or just one person. The switch to
interest-free banking is going to happen in a surge.

So maybe all these so-called monetary reformers now coming
out against global timetrading is an indication that we're
near that seeming inflection curve in the an exponential
function and we could all be operating our own credit-cards
interest-free in only months.

Again, no one has ever challenged my publicly on a world-
wide timetrading network and to have well-known people
come out against it so that I can give their brains the
beatings of their lives has to have a reason. Other newbies
to the discussions are beating them up for me. And the
development of international timetrading protocols goes on.

R: Ethics over convenience. Morals over ease. Life over
slavery.  Death before fatigued capitulation. Semper fi.
keep up the good fight. Rob

JCT: I can play Semper Fideles on my accordion. Beautiful
tough song. And don't worry about keeping up the fight for
life, against genocides; same thing.
Invictus.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: Doing a short troll on the net for "UNILETS," I ran
across an article from an interview I did several months ago
by Alternatives Canada
<http://www.alternatives.ca/article138.html>

Monday December 2, 2002,
by: Ingrid HEIN

PHOTO : Dominic Morissettec

IH: Imagine if you could pay for goods and services with
time; an hour of babysitting could get you an hour of legal
advice, five hours of community work could get you a used
stove. Money would be almost redundent, leaving the IMF very
little power indeed.

JCT: Actually, 10 hours of babysitting would get you an hour
of legal advice if usual rates apply. Just because we use a
$12Hour as our money chip doesn't mean we all get paid $12
an Hour. The babysitter might charge half-an-Hour per hour
while the lawyer might charge 5 Hours per hour. Only in US
Timedollar systems do they try to get doctors to accept the
same pay as babysitters which does account for their having
few doctors or professionals other than those who think of
it more as charitable volunteering rather than profitable
timetrading.

One of the greatest weaknesses of the Timedollar system is
their forcing everyone to accept the same Hour per hour which
is the reason they don't use paper notes. They need central
control to make sure they can impose their structure on the
members. If systems use notes, people are free to do
whatever they feel is fair with no central control. The
centralized Timedollar model cannot be the eventual world
currency. They have to get over their desire for control and
leave people decide for themselves what another person's
time is worth.

IH: This might sound like a utopian dream, but dropping out
of the money economy - exchanging goods and services
directly without the medium of recognized currencies - is
becoming a real option in many areas around the world.

JCT: The utopian dream is becoming the ONLY option in some
places. Imagine being forced by poverty, and only when
you're poor enough, do you adopt the perfect system. If
you're not poor enough, you keep trying to stay with the
slavery system. Amusing, isn't it?

IH: Besides monetary benefits like avoiding the bank, barter
or "LETS" (Local Exchange Trading Service) systems also help
develop rewarding socio-economic relationships between
people, giving manual labor the same value as professional
services, by keeping track of hours, instead of dollars.

JCT: It's not giving manual labor the same value as
professional services, it's giving it the same respect. Sure
a plumber might only get 3 Hours per hour and a doctor 5 but
if that's what the fair market has decided, so be it.

IH: While LETS system were originally designed to work
locally, they are starting to reach a global scale. For
instance, before John Turmel made a trip to Europe, he
agreed on an exchange standard with his hosts; a night was
the equivalent of 5 hours work, or with a Canadian LETS
system, $50. He didn't have to do the work in Europe, he
could do it back home, in due time, whenever his services
were called upon. "You can't get cheaper or better
accommodation than that ! It was easy to find places to
stay, and much more personable," Turmel says.

JCT: Okay, I've heard the complaints on the International
Journal of Community Currency Research that using Hours to
count with is too hard to understand. And it seems no one
finds that laughable. I guess most of the experts find it
hard to understand too.

What's incredible is that the very first thing every single
LETS and Barter system does it connect whatever token-unit
they are going to create to the local hour of work. 12 Ecos,
Canadian Greendollars, all worth worth an Hour. $10 US
Greendollars, Berkshares, all worth an Hour. So the Ithaca
system simply agreed they would call their $10 Greendollars
per Hour note an Hour note. And some Canadians have agreed
to call their $12 Greendollar Hour note an Hour note too.

How can it be much easier to value things with a $10 dollar
bill that gets you an hour of labor than a one Hour bill
that gets you $10 worth of labor? And why should it be so
much harder to value things in Hour notes (worth $10) than
in $10 notes (worth an Hour)? Can you see how silly it is to
prefer a unit of nothing, the dollar, compared to a fixed
unit of energy: manpower x time?

IH: Traditionally, the problem with barter is that exchanges
are not always possible between two people. The baker
doesn't need his house painted - but could use a seamstress.
The seamstress doesn't need any painting or baked goods, but
needs a plumber. LETS solves direct-exchange bartering
issues. Its uses an alternative time-based system as
currency, allowing each member of a community to trade goods
and services with any member they choose. Members are
debited and credited as they give and take goods and
services from one another, without ever having to "pay up".

JCT: With federal cash on a payment plan. You do have to pay
up with personal time on the whenever-you-can plan.

IH: Whether you're a plumber, a psychiatrist or a
babysitter, the "receiving" end of the barter simply agrees
on how many hours the service is worth.

JCT: That's better. If the doctor's service is worth 10
times more because that's what he can command and still keep
a full waiting room, then that's the worth the LETS records
was fairly arrived at.

IH: Real money does enter the system, in cases where
obtaining supplies, such as the paint needed to paint a
house.

JCT: Good. Glad it's pointed out that they can charge
federal to cover their federal costs and Green to cover
their profit margin.

IH: Worldwide alternatives

Started in Canada in 1984 by Vancouver-based Michael Linton,
LETS systems developed simultaneously around the world,
wherever a need for alternative economics presented itself.

JCT: No, it wasn't simultaneous. Michael did a lot of work
to spread the local LETSystems around the world and I did a
lot of talking on the hustings to promote the national and
UNILETS.

IH: Today, there are thousands of LETS communities worldwide
in almost every country, including Japan, Australia, the
U.S., and South Africa. There are systems in nearly every
province in Canada, and in many cases, several systems.

Turmel isn't the only one that wants to take LETS to the
world. While the original LETS idea is sustaining local
communities, cross-border barter is catching on. UNILETS
Online, an Internet-based LETS group, is seeing a lot of
success by posting services on its site, and keeping track
of hours through an online computer system. Anyone can log
on and exchange with another LETS group, and everything from
accommodation to legal advice to babysitting to hard goods
are available for barter.

In Victoria, B.C., "VicLETS" is also looking to expand
outside of its home community. Using a system of Green
Dollars, the 115 member group have spent $12,000 Green
dollars in exchanges in the last two years. They are
currently looking at how to interact with other LETS groups
using partial local currencies. "I think that layers and
levels are important," said "AdminisTrader" Kieth Moen. "If
a system remains local and relatively small, the economic
relationship maintains an emphasis on relationship, rather
than economic."

JCT: That could be a problem. I know that one of the
greatest fears of many is that connecting to the big Global
system might have them lose some of the conviviality
they've found in their new social circle of friends. When
LETS becomes more a support group than a funding system, its
growth slows down for this reason. Luckily, being able to
spend their credits out-of-town and being able to earn out-
of-town credits really has no bearing on their in-town
relationships though it's the dickens trying to get it
through their heads.

IH: In Alberta, the Calgary Dollars (C$) system is steadily
growing, with a high success rate locally. The system has
$25,000 in C$ in circulation over the past six years, and
has about 700 listings of things you can buy with Calgary
dollars. Everything from childcare, flute lessons,
translations and physiotherapy to bookkeeping, carpentry,
plumbing, and autobody work are payable in C$. Coordinator
Gerald Wheatley boasts, "There are five apartment buildings
that accept C$ as part of rent, our city accepts C$ for a
small number of transit tickets, and recreation center
tickets, and is promoting C$ to seniors city-wide."

JCT: I've been trying to get our Ottawa mayor, my political
opponent over many years, to do the same but good ideas
elsewhere don't necessarily translate into being worth
trying here where Bob's just recently successfully cut 40
million from the city's budget. When Bob can cut funding to
social services so easily, why bother using a new funding
source? All he has to do is plug his ears to the cries of
woe from those whose life-support tickets he took away?

IH: Quebec has seen more than a dozen barter systems in the
past few years. Montreal-based BECS (Banque d'echanges
communautaires de services) is one of the biggest. "It
doesn't replace the economy, rather, it stimulates it. Many
of the exchanges are end up being things that people
wouldn`t bother doing without the system. - Like repairing
my clothes !" BECS member Charles Jutknecht says. "When you
don`t have a lot of money, this is a great way to get things
done."

JCT: And there aren't enough people in Canada who don't have
a lot of money. Yet.

IH: LETS as a way of survival
The practical benefits of LETS are best seen in Argentina.
The country's economic crisis has led it to depend on them.
Called "Trueque Clubs" ("Exchange Clubs"), they have nearly
replaced the national money system.

JCT: We know they were attacked by fraud artists and I'd bet
that they've tightened up on the security of their tokens
but regardless, the federal banking system had collapsed.
There was no choice.

IH: With strict government limits on bank withdrawals in an
attempt to prevent the collapse of the financial system,
barter became the only way to survive. Turmel reports that
LETS systems in Argentina have grown exponentially, and are
a good example of how the system works.

JCT: The most wonderful example for the world that came out
of the recent Argentinian experience was finding out that
farmers' IOUs for grain were valid currency in the eyes of
multinational corporations. Trading grain directly for cars
and tractors got them more for their grain and it will only
be a matter of time until Canadian and American farmers wise
up to ask for the same privilege.

Actually, I'm amazed that the Canadian and American Farmers'
Associations haven't informed their members of what the
Argentinian farmers are getting and fighting to get it for
them too. Then again, as we've learned in our medpot fights,
the guys at top of these Associations have a high
probability of being establishment moles which would explain
why they haven't told their members how the Argentinians
farmers have escaped their captive markets and how we could
do it too.

Right? If you were The Banks, wouldn't you want to have
placed agents in the Farmers' Associations to make sure that
they don't find out and ask for the same thing the
Argentinian farmers have won? What other explanation can
there be for Argentinian farmers boasting about having cut
the middlemen out of the transaction and the leaders of the
farmers' associations here not picking up on it? Simple
incompetence or more devious sabotage?

Come on, farmers in Argentina who were on the verge of
bankruptcy just a few years ago are now laughing all the
way to their own "grain" banks where they print up their own
"grain" dollars that the large multi-national corporations
have been forced to accept? And the Canadian and American
farm leaders haven't noticed? By accident?

I've reported on court sabotage by Canada's to medpot
lawyer Alan Young, on political sabotage by the leader of
the never-elected Marijuana Party of Canada Marc-Boris St-
Maurice, on media sabotage by Canada's top medpot publisher
Marc Emery, support from US mole Richard Lake who sits on
the database of all medpot stories with their authors (for
easy tracking and identification), why would it be so
incredible to believe that Big Money hasn't plugged moles in
the farmer's associations to make sure that they don't find
out how to escape their debt bondage, and if they do, to
make sure any efforts to copy the Argentinians gets
derailed from the top?

IH: "In Argentina, the last estimate was eight million
members. It's that or starve." While LETS will probably
never replace our entire economic system, it could very well
become a popular secondary system.

JCT: When the main system collapses and LETS is the only
trading token left, it does replace the entire economic
system. The only thing lacking is the break of the main
system and enough starving people in the streets.

IH: If nothing else, it connects people, and makes giving
and taking a little more fun.

JCT: If nothing else? When the great collapse comes, knowing
who can fix your plumbing and being able to trade with him
is going to make all the difference in the world. And you'll
have the connections ready to go, rusty, unused perhaps so
far, but ready to take over the whole economic system when
called up to do so.

Still, seeing the big picture isn't easy. Of the hundreds,
perhaps thousands of LETSers who have heard of UNILETS, and
despite being endorsed by the 1350 Non-Governmental
Organizations at the United Millennium Forum, I believe I
have only heard four of us endorse it publicly. Me, Marc
Gauvin, Freed Schitter, and Wes Burt. It's almost as if
understanding the local model impairs the ability of the
others to understand the world-wide model or maybe we're
just gifted with a different kind of foresight.

So, seeing the Big Simple Easy Picture just isn't all that
simple and easy.

Yet, the Millennium Forum NGOs did. How to explain it?


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: Wow. You'll remember that "In the belly of the beast"
I mentioned:

JCT: Yesterday I explained that the prohibition law has been
dead since Aug. 1 2001  even though no one noticed or argued
it except me and my medpot guerrilla lawyers, Parker,
Paquette, Dupuis, and finally, Brian McAllister in Windsor
and then before judges in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

With all these judges saying that the prohibition of
marijuana was unconstitutional, I had to take a gamble to
prove it before the government could bring in new
legislation to recriminalize it.

Of course, we've all been waiting on the decision of Justice
Rogin on the Crown's appeal of the McAllister win in Windsor
but with the judge taking his sweet time to come to a
conclusion, I considered that it was a stall until the new
law could come in and then, whether yes, or no, with new
laws, our win would be worthless.

JCT: So on Wednesday May 14 I went up on Parliament Hill
with a life-time-in-jail supply of marijuana to smoke a
joint and proclaim the prohibition of laughing grass dead
before Justice Minister Cauchon could make it illegal again.
I was released on Thursday and penned by beef.

Then, on Friday, Justice Rogin handed down his decision
backing up my claim that prohibition on possession and
everything else died two years ago and they were going to
have to erase everyone's convictions including my upcoming
one.

It was the biggest gamble of my life and the very next day,
the Queen of Spades hits to back up my draw to the Royal
Flush.

>The Globe and Mail
>Sat May 17 2003 04:30 AM
>No laws ban possession of marijuana, court rules
>By COLIN FREEZE AND KIM LUNMAN

CF: Landmark Ontario decision goes beyond the
decriminalization proposed by Ottawa

TORONTO and OTTAWA -- Canada has no laws prohibiting
marijuana possession, an Ontario Superior Court judge said
yesterday in a ruling that will be binding on judges in the
province and may soon be picked up across the country. "For
today, and for the Victoria Day weekend, it's a very
pleasant state of affairs for recreational pot smokers,"
said criminal lawyer Paul Burstein, who helped argue the
case successfully.

JCT: But had Cauchon recriminalized it last Thursday, there
would have been no weekend pleasant state of affairs. And
the media keep pointing out that it was the US Drug Czar who
talked Cauchon out of recriminalizing. Thanks loads.

CF: It was the second time that a Windsor teenager who was
caught smoking pot while playing hooky in a park has been
found not to have broken any law because, the courts ruled,
there are effectively no longer any marijuana laws to break.

JCT: Music to my ears after raising the stakes.

CF: Mr. Justice Steven Rogin upheld yesterday a lower-court
decision, based on complex arguments, that has already had
far-reaching influence.

JCT: Nothing complex about it. They had to build a new law
with medical loopholes and when the old law fell, they blew
the new prohibition.

CF: The new ruling means that proposed federal legislation
to decriminalize possession of a small amount of marijuana
would actually "recriminalize" it, defence lawyers said
yesterday.

JCT: And there's been no law since Terry Parker Day, Aug. 1
2001. Almost 2 years that people have been suffering and
dying with no law to stop them from saving themselves. It's
truly the prisoners who hadn't checked and only found out
after 2 years that the lock on their cell didn't work.

CF: While the new law would impose fines for pot possession,
yesterday's ruling effectively eliminated any sanctions for
simple pot possession in Ontario, they said. The decision
"has effectively erased the criminal prohibition on
marijuana possession from the law books in Ontario," said
Brian McAllister, the lawyer for the accused teenager.

JCT: Actually, the Parker decision by the Ontario Court of
Appeal erased the criminal prohibition. Justice Rogin on
presided over the funeral, not the death by the Court of
Appeal.

CF: Courts in Nova Scotia and PEI have already put
prosecutions on hold pending yesterday's ruling, he said,
and lawyers in other provinces were similarly watching for
this decision.

JCT: Now judges are all going to jump on the bandwagon to
erase their workloads. But then arises the necessity for the
Government to apologize and erase everyone's convictions. No
one's talking about that. Yet.

CF: The initial ruling in favour of the Windsor teenager,
identified only as J. P., had a significant spillover effect
and the higher-court decision is expected to be even more
influential. The federal Department of Justice, which
appealed the initial ruling, is planning another appeal.

JCT: And my Charbonneau appeal is already there to make sure
there's no funny business.

CF: The government still plans to introduce its marijuana-
decriminalization legislation later this month. Most
Canadians are behind the idea, according to an Ipsos-Reid
poll released yesterday.

JCT: Not if it's going to violate the right to life, they
won't. And not without now proving the dangers while making
the same case to recriminalize alcohol and tobacco.

CF: It found that 55 per cent of Canadians did not believe
smoking marijuana should be a criminal offence, while 42 per
cent thought it should be.

JCT: That sounds crooked. Every poll I've heard recently is
4:1 in favor. They say it's 4:3. That's too off to be true.
They're lying.

CF: More telling, 63 per cent of respondents supported
Ottawa's plans to issue tickets and fines similar to traffic
violations to those caught with 15 grams or less of
marijuana, the poll found.

JCT: Do a search for "Turmel" and "Humphrey Appleby" to find
out how they can fix polls with leading questions and only
the published answer. 4:3 is too far off 4:1 to be honest.
And also keep in mind that polls of the hypnotized don't
mean anything anyway.

CF: Justice Minister Martin Cauchon has said he is seeking
the changes so that people who are caught with small amounts
will not clog up the court system, potentially receiving
criminal records.

JCT: But they're still going to be clogging the court system
with people trying to beat a rap that will kill their
chances for international travel. It's still a fine that
will cause you trouble in Amerika.

CF: For the moment, however, marijuana possession remains
the most frequently laid drug charge in Canada even though
courts are becoming increasingly resistant to hearing those
cases. Jim Leising of the federal Justice Department said in
an interview that he was "disappointed" by yesterday's
decision and will push to have the case heard quickly in the
Ontario Court of Appeal.

JCT: We know how quickly they don't go though they might
want to fly here. Still, I don't think they'll be able to
catch up with our Parker-Turmel-Paquette Charbonneau appeal
that simply awaits my Appeal Book and Factum. With the
Rogin decision backing us up, we just won.

CF: "We are are still of the opinion that the law against
marijuana is valid," he said. Mr. Leising said prosecutions
will continue, although some may be put on hold.

JCT: It's like saying "we retain the right to remain
unconvinced."

CF: But defence lawyers involved in J.P.'s case said
Ontarians facing possession charges should fight Crown
prosecutors' attempts to delay their cases until the law is
clarified. Ontarians who are charged with marijuana
possession after yesterday's ruling could consider suing
police for wrongful arrest, they said. "Anybody who's got a
charge before the court should definitely take advantage of
this," Mr. Burstein said.

JCT: They should have been doing it a lot longer ago since
I've been screaming it for almost 2 years. Why did it take
Rogin's opinion to convince Paul the law was dead and my
exhortations fell on his deaf ears?

CF: Multiple court battles to strike down the marijuana laws
are taking place, he said, leaving Ottawa besieged from many
directions. "The courts keep firing big shots into the sides
of the government's ship," Mr. Burstein said. "They're
sinking lower and lower. They are bailing it out with a
cup."

JCT: He makes it sound like there is still some fight left
in the corpse that I'm trying to end the funeral for. The
law died 2 years ago. There's no bailing going on, just a
refusal on all parts to accept the consequences.

CF: The Ipsos-Reid poll -- of 1001 people, conducted between
May 13 and May 15 -- found people still have some
reservations about decriminalization.

JCT: I have reservations about decriminalization so that's a
fixed question. I have no reservations about legalization.

CF: The poll results are considered to reflect accurately
the feelings of the entire country to within 3.1 percentage
points, 19 times out of 20.

JCT: Bull feathers. They reflect the manufactured consent
for the probable conclusion the train of questions was
designed to elicit. As Yes Minister's Sir Humphrey Appleby
so clearly pointed out.
theglobeandmail
<http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030517/UMARIM/\
National/Idx>
======

Marijuana possession law 'erased'
Sat May 17 2003 05:14 AM
Marijuana possession law 'erased'
Ellen van Wageningen
The Ottawa Citizen

EW: WINDSOR -- Possessing less than 30 grams of marijuana is
no longer against the law in Ontario, a Windsor judge says
in a ruling released yesterday that compounds the chaos over
Canada's pot laws. Superior Court Justice Steven Rogin's
decision has "effectively erased the criminal prohibition on
marijuana possession from the law books in Ontario," said
Brian McAllister, the Windsor lawyer who challenged the law
on behalf of a 17-year-old client.

JCT: Again, his decision has enforced the erasure two years
ago by the Court of Appeal. It's important that people not
think that it's the Rogin Superior Court decision that
invalidated the CDSA prohibition but that it was the Parker
Court of Appeal decision that slew the beast. Rogin's
decision is the eulogy at the funeral.

EW: Judge Rogin's decision is almost certainly to be
followed by judges of Ontario's lower court, where nearly
all marijuana possession cases are decided. "This decision
is also likely to have significant repercussions on the
viability of marijuana prosecutions across the country," Mr.
McAllister said.

Hundreds of marijuana possession cases in Ontario have been
put on hold pending Judge Rogin's ruling and the outcome of
other cases currently before the Supreme Court of Canada.
That shouldn't change until the Ontario Court of Appeal
reviews Judge Rogin's decision, said Jim Leising, the
Justice Department official responsible for drug
prosecutions in Ontario. "We certainly continue to maintain
that possession of marijuana is prohibited by the Controlled
Drugs and Substances Act, and we'll be moving quite quickly
to appeal this judgment," he said. Mr. McAllister said
police in Ontario should note Judge Rogin's judgment and
stop laying charges for marijuana possession.

JCT: Actually, they should stop laying all charges, not just
for possession. Oops. Too late to not charge me.

"Otherwise, the police will be arresting people for an
activity which is no longer outlawed," he said. Judge Rogin
upheld Ontario Court Justice Douglas Phillip's decision to
quash a charge against a Kingsville youth for possessing
less than 30 grams of marijuana because the law is no longer
valid.

The government needed to pass a new law prohibiting
marijuana possession after the current one was struck down
by the Ontario Court of Appeal two years ago, Judge Rogin
agreed.

JCT: So it's pretty clear. The law was slain by the Court of
Appeal and Justice Rogin is just admitting it.

EW: The appeal court ruled in favour of severe epileptic
Terry Parker, of Toronto, saying the law violated the
constitutional rights of sick people who used marijuana for
medical reasons. It gave the government until July 31, 2001,
to remedy the situation or the law would be invalid. The
government responded by passing the Marijuana Medical Access
Regulations, which were found to be unconstitutional by a
Toronto judge in another case involving Mr. Parker.

JCT: They always forget to mention the first Superior Court
judge, Justice Romain Pitt, who only needed to see that
Parker's situation had not been remedied with an expired
exemption and the OMA telling his doctor not sign. But he
was first and we're going to be consolidating the appeal
against Alan Young getting the Pitt decision set aside with
the Lederman appeal. Won't that put Alan in a horrible
predicament. Arguing the MMAR did not save the CDSA and then
explaining why he helped get the Pitt decision that the MMAR
did not save the CDSA set aside. 13 months ago on April 17.

EW: That judge said the problem is there is no legal supply
of marijuana for sick people.

JCT: And Pitt said the MMAR was no remedy for Parker.

EW: Meanwhile, the federal government is attempting to get
new legislation dealing with marijuana before Parliament by
the end of the month.

JCT: Now comes the biggest fight of them all, to get them to
explain the harms they didn't have to explain in 1923 when
they just slipped marijuana on the prohibited list.

EW: It is proposing to make possessing 15 grams or less of
marijuana a non-criminal offence for which people could be
fined as little as $100. The relaxing of the pot possession
laws would be accompanied by stiffer penalties for drug
traffickers and marijuana growers, as well as drug use
prevention, education and treatment strategies.

JCT: And it's touted like a liberal change when it's
reported that when they decriminalized in New Zealand so
people only faced fines and not jail, prosecutions tripled.
More jobs for judges, clerks, lawyers when cops can
lay more jobs because they're not ruining people's lives as
badly.

So ends Alan Young's equation of responsibility. We could
have had the same declaration 13 months ago on April 17 2002
and Alan Young conspired with the government to get this
declaration delayed that whole 13 months. In the extra 13
months that Young managed to delay it, almost 4000 extra
epileptics died who would have lived had it not been for his
helping the Crown to delay liberation until now.

Of course, he doesn't understand where I get my estimate of
the 4000 epileptics he helped die. But everyone with some
basic math skills knows the Wizard of Odds ain't wrong.

Now to get to work on the motion to have my life-sentence-
threatening charge thrown out next week. With the Rogin
decision now in hand, it will be a pleasure. Who knows, I
might be the very last Canadian ever busted for trafficking
in this now-legal substance on Parliament Hill.

Might be able to soon get back to work full time installing
my world-wide UNILETS anti-poverty system and abolishing the
interest rate that takes from the poor to give to the rich,
my number one major political reform program.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

It's weird by the National Capital Freenet hasn't been getting
my mail to me so if anyone has written, that expalins no
response.
I can still transmit though.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: Yesterday I explained that the prohibition law has been
dead since Aug. 1 2001  even though no one noticed or argued
it except me and my medpot guerrilla lawyers, Parker,
Paquette, Dupuis, and finally, Brian McAllister in Windsor
and then before judges in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.

With all these judges saying that the prohibition of
marijuana was unconstitutional, I had to take a gamble to
prove it before the government could bring in new
legislation to recriminalize it.

Of course, we've all been waiting on the decision of Justice
Rogin on the Crown's appeal of the McAllister win in Windsor
but with the judge taking his sweet time to come to a
conclusion, I considered that it was a stall until the new
law could come in and then, whether yes, or no, with new
laws, our win would be worthless.

Since Justice Minister Cauchon had announced he was going to
be presenting the new prohibitions to Parliament today,
Thursday, I had to make my move while the law was still
dead. So I rounded up 7 pounds, over 3 KGs, of marijuana
from the Canadian Marijuana Growers Association to ensure
that if they did dare charge me, I would be getting a
Superior Court process whose decision would be binding on
all other judges in Ontario. The draw-back is the life
sentence.

In the morning, I faxed a press release to a group of Crown
Attorneys announcing that I would be at the entrance of the
House of Commons on Parliament Hill for the opening of
Question Period smoking a joint and daring the government to
bust me based on their dead law.

Of course, I was worried about getting stopped before
reaching my spot where I expected the reporters to be but
when I arrived on the Hill, I found a half dozen reporters
who had come for the protest.

On the walk from the Centennial Flame up the Hill, I lit up
my joint and had a few puffs while they took pictures.
That's the picture you see of me on page 2 of today's
Toronto Star and Quebec's Le Soleil.

I then moseyed over to the bus stop outside the West Door of
the House of Commons where I had protested against interest
rates in the early 1980s every Thursday for 5 years and as
members arrived, I heckled stentorially "Do not Re-
criminalise Marijuana. The law is dead, do not recriminalize
it." I explained, loudly, shoutingly to the House, that the
government had failed to comply with the Parker Court ruling
and the law had died.

Then I started pulling out my 7 pounds of marijuana from my
duffel bag explaining that they were for the inspection of
the House members, the Prime Minister, the Supreme Court of
Canada, the Justice Minister, the Superior Court of Ontario
and the Ottawa police and the seventh I was keeping for now.
Notice the words "for inspection" that will be critical when
the issue of trafficking is discussed.

Then I packed them back but for the one I was going to leave
for the House and went to the front door of the House and
tried to get in to leave it "for their inspection" but the
security would have nothing of it. I asked if I could leave
it for the Speaker of the House but they said no. I asked
how I could leave it and they just shrugged.

So I put the pound down in the entryway and said I hoped
some MP would be daring enough to pick it up and bring it in
"for their inspection." As I then started to leave to go
over to the Prime Minister's Office in the East Wing,
security asked me not to move as they had called the RCMP. W

While I continued to explain my arguments for being there
with the pot, an old political opponent, now a Liberal MP
from Ottawa East, Eugene Bellemarre, got off the bus and was
entering. When he saw me, he came over to shake my hand. I
told him that he should not recriminalize marijuana because
it had died. And I'd be in big trouble if I was wrong. He
was a bit shocked at what I was doing and stuck around to
watch the conclusion.
Finally, the RCMP officers arrived and informed me that I
was under arrest for possession with the intent to traffic,
what I'd expected. The moment you are caught with more than
3Kg, it is assumed. But this time, even more cameras had
come out from Parliament to get the story. You can see the
picture of me getting arrested in today's Globe & Mail.

I was put in a cruiser and even more reporters started to
show up and try to shout questions through the glass but
couldn't be heard. I could only keep mouthing "medpot dot
net." And then I was driven away. Before exiting the
grounds, the lady officer read me my rights and then we
followed the lead car as I was driven to the RCMP detachment
at McArthur Rd. and the Vanier Parkway.

What's interesting is that right beside it is Louis'
Restaurant that won the "Best Pizza in Ottawa" award a few
years back whose owner, Mo, is a poker buddy. So I told the
officers that if they called Louis' Pizza and said they had
John Turmel in custody, Louis'd probably send over a couple
of pizzas for us. They didn't in case he was an accomplice
who might try to break me out. Too bad, they missed some
great pizza, the all-time best.

So they searched me, interviewed me, photographed and
fingerprinted me and ten did their reports, . I did have my
last joint hidden among some tissues and managed to keep it
but I had no way to light it. They don't allow smoking
anymore so who needs a light?

It's always reassuring to run into the older guys I'd known
when I was picketing Parliament in the early years since
most RCMP do get a stint there. The senior officer was no
exception so he had a great time telling the younger guy
about the candidate for Ottawa mayor busted for the biggest
gaming house raid in Canadian history in their car.

They then drove me down to the Ottawa Police to be kept
overnight until my hearing in the morning. This was the part
I dreaded. The Ottawa Police Station's holding cells have
steel cots, no mattress, no blanket, no pillow. A night on a
steel cot is a nightmare. I had tried to think ahead. I have
a travelling pillow shaped in a horseshoe to go around my
neck on buses and planes and I called it my neck-brace. It
really was going to help my neck stand the strain. They let
me keep it but when I got to the Ottawa cell block, the
young officer who frisked me said I was just trying to bring
in a pillow and took it away from me. Sad that his big
accomplishment for the day was making sure the old guy
didn't have a pillow.

While I was in the first holding cell, I decided I wasn't
going to tempt fate during a second search so I took out my
joint and ate it. It paid off. I had to suffer the indignity
of being strip searched and it would have been found if I
hadn't enjoyed 15 minutes earlier.

People don't realize that 600,000 Canadians have been put
through these kinds of degradation since Jean Chretien and
Pierre Trudeau first promised to legalize marijuana in the
early 1970s and then reneged. I like to see Jean Chretien
have his ass checked because he likes drinking beer. Another
degrading experience is having your cell monitored by camera
which is a real disincentive to having a crap.

And I'd arrived after the dinner period so I got nothing to
eat.

There is nothing more miserable than sleeping on steel. It's
cold so if I took off my jacket to act as a pillow, my back
got chills and if I wore the jacket, then the head had to
stay vertical with no side support. To try to turn on my
side meant that my head would tilt at a large angle and I'd
eventually get a terrible neck crick. Or I'd rest my head on
my arm and wake up later with a numb arm that had to go
through the needles of blood getting back into the arteries.
So it was a pretty miserable 15 hours capped by a breakfast
of two cold, damp toast and a glass of juice.

The occupants of the other cells were mostly loud-mouthed
drunks. Disgusting. And when you think that it's the drunks
in the Liberal Party who are going to make my drug of choice
illegal again, the hypocrisy sickens even more.

Then it was time to be taken down to the courthouse. This
time, rather than just be handcuffed, they put on leg chains
and then manacled me to three other guys. They have these
converted vans with a central partition and then another at
cross angles cutting it into four. They place four prisoners
per "cell" of about a space of 5 feet buy 3 feet, 16 in all.
It must be murderously hot in the summer.

When we reached the Ottawa courthouse, we were all put in a
big holding cell. There were actually 14 of us. One guy
older than me, another my age and the other dozen were all
kids under 30. Almost half of them were there for breaching
their previous probations. One guy for being caught with one
joint!

Remember how the RCMP officers debating me on the CFRA show
kept saying they needed the prohibition to protect the
youth. Well, here were almost all youth who are the end
victims of their game.

They also mentioned that they don't around busting marijuana
smokers but usually, only accompanying another charge. Here
I realized that the marijuana charge led to something else.
By having this lousy law on the books, it gives the police
another reason to be busting the kids on breaches of
probation. Imagine, going back to jail for being caught with
a joint. That's the reality of it that the police try to
white-wash with "it's an accessory charge." Not true. It
generates a lot of the breach charges. One joint can get
some people jailed.

I got to explain to the kids how everyone should have had
their criminal records erased when the unconstitutional law
died on July 31 2001. The Court did say it was
unconstitutional, and no one should be in jail for an
unconstitutional charge, but no one has yet bothered trying
to get them out.

When I explained that I had risked a life-sentence to get a
Superior Court Judge to order they empty the jails, they
became very friendly. One young tough said "you've got
balls." I could only joke "the biggest."

One by one, they were taken up to the courtroom for the
cases to be processed. Those who were being released went
into another holding cell upon return.

After a few hours, I was taken out with two others to go
talk with the duty counsel, a young woman named Morrison.
She explained that the Crown had already indicated that I
was going to be representing myself but informed me that I
was going to be kept in custody until my turn for a bail
hearing. She explained that they worried I might go to it
again.

Bad news. Nothing I can do. If the Crown wants to argue I
should be kept in jail, I have to stay in jail until the
hearing. It's totally at the discretion of the Crown but I
asked her to explain that this was a once-in-a-lifetime test
case, that they didn't chase and catch me, that I had chased
and caught them and it was silly to think I would breach my
probation and be in real trouble if I was released. Since I
now had my test case, I certainly was not going to do it
again.

I guess she must have made a pretty good case because when I
was then brought up into the courtroom, she informed me that
the Crown had agreed to let me be released on my own
recognizance with a few conditions. Phew. That was close. I
might have spent the whole weekend in the pen.


I did think the conditions were a mite unreasonable:
1) no use of substances on the list;
2) no association with anyone who uses marijuana.

1) I would have gladly accepted no use of "illegal
substances," so I could argue cannabis (in smaller
quantities) is not illegal and they would have to prove that
it still is. But with the condition against substances "on
the list" which included marijuana, whether it should be be
there or not, I will have to resist.

2) Considering that almost all my co-applicants use
marijuana, Terry, Marc, Johnny, this is a condition that
will have to be challenged at the next opportunity.

So I agreed to the conditions to make sure I got out but
fortunately, I've done motions to change bail conditions
before and I should have those issues broached by next week.

When I got out, I was real disappointed to realize that my
gamble had made the news all across the country, the CTV
national news, the national newspapers, but that my home
town papers had both killed it. Of course, the Sun and the
Citizen have been killing stories about for years but it's
still revealing how a story that they know made the national
outlets still gets killed in my home town. I guess they
don't want me getting any of the toker votes in my upcoming
election for mayor. They've always censored any moves that
would have brought me support like media in other towns do
not have to censor me.

Sad though to have the citizens of Ottawa so ill-served by
their own media about one of Ottawa's own politicians doing
something extraordinary. Well, as long as Ottawa's internet
readers know about the suppression, it can't be worse than
internet readership knowing how CNN suppressed much truth to
support the last US conquest to rival their victory of the
formidable armed forces of Grenada.

So the media stinks most everywhere that it counts. At least
it's good to know they do it.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: Yesterday was wild. Tons of media though I learned that
Ottawa mayoral candidate being busted on the hill didn't
make the Ottawa Citizen or Sun. Of course, they've been
censoring stories about me for years.

All worked out well. Full report soon.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: There's too much at stake to let the government
recriminalize without anyone knowing that the law had died
and there is only one way to test it before
recriminalization is put back in place tomorrow. I faxed
this off to the Crown Attorney's this morning:


To: Crown Attorneys:
Chris Leafloor, Vanita Goela, Croft Michaelson, Alan
Prefontaine, Catherine Lawrence, Sebastien Gagne, Sophie
Matte, Harvey Frankel, Lara Speirs

Wednesday May 14 2003

Dear Counsel for the Canadian Government:

I have sought since Aug. 1 2001 to have declared in force and
effect the ruling of invalidity of the prohibition of
marijuana by the Ontario Court of Appeal in Parker[2000].

Two Ontario Superior Court judges and many provincial judges
in Ontario, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick have since come
to the conclusion that the government's response failed to
comply with the court's ruling.

The law is unconstitutional. The law has always been
unconstitutional; since 1923. All people prosecuted under
this this unconstitutional law must be freed, pardoned, and
have their convictions expunged. Everyone has to start with
a clean slate even if the government succeeds in
recriminalizing marijuana.

But the Court's have accepted that cannabis has saved Terry
Parker and Marylynne Chamney from epileptic seizures. My
affidavit contains the statistics of 3,600 yearly epileptic
deaths in Canada at 10-per-day and 720,000 world-wide at
2000-a-day. Legalization of cannabis would save them. Any
prohibitionary impediment kills.

With over 10,000 needless epileptic deaths since the Ontario
Court of Appeal suspended its declaration of invalidity for
one year and permitted the Government of Canada to
continue violating their right to life by prohibitionary
impediments to access for an extra year, Terrance Parker
exempted from that violation of life that continued for all
other Canadian epileptics, that genocide has now gone on for
three years. That's long enough. Ending the UN prohibitions
would have saved 2,000,000 world-wide. Suspending remedy on
the right to life was a fatally flawed decision that
certainly qualifies as a pretty spectacular loss of life
that could have been saved.

All you Counsels for the Attorney General know my argument -
that the failure of government to comply with the Court's
ruling for new legislation means the invalidity of the
prohibition of cannabis in the CDSA took effect on Aug. 1
2001 - has been vindicated by the many provincial court
judges who have now so ruled that prohibition died on Terry
Parker Day, Aug. 1 2001.

You also know that nowhere in the Parker decision is any 30
gram limit alluded to. Access to 30 grams for Parker is no
secure supply. With the political masters trying to
resurrect prohibition by calling "recriminalization" a
"decriminalization," someone must dare to expose that the
killer law is dead, that the funeral for it is almost over,
and that no one is going to bring back to life the genocide
of denying herbal medicine to the sick without someone who
will dare to go all the way to oppose. Someone must dare.

I dare. It helps that it's my engineering duty too.

Later this afternoon, I will pick up my store of 7 pounds of
marijuana and take it to Parliament Hill to openly smoke a
joint as MPs enter and dare the Government to prosecute me
under a now-dead law. Then I will be leaving a pound at the
door of Parliament for their inspection, leaving a second
pound at the Prime Minister's office. It could could help
him quit alcohol. Then I will go down to the Supreme Court
of Canada on Wellington Street to drop off a third pound.
Then across the street to drop off a fourth pound at your
Attorney General's Office. Then I'll be going down Elgin
Street to the Ontario Provincial Court House and drop off a
fifth pound. Then off down Elgin to the Ottawa Police
Station where I'll drop off my sixth pound. Of course, if I
get off Parliament Hill.

You are counsel who should know best the law and true
situation no matter what you are paid to argue. But you also
have a commitment to the citizen, me, to advise the
Attorneys General correctly.

I don't mind being charged and getting this before a judge.
Right now, quickly, before recriminalization. But I will
mind not being released on my own recognizance after being
charged. Err in daring to deprive me of my liberty based on
this invalidated law and you'll become part of an infamous
"ET AL" that I will be chasing through the bar associations,
courts of justice and Internet courts of public opinion for
the rest of your professional careers. Not if you be wrong
in just charging me and getting the issue settled quickly.

The Engineer wasn't invited to draft the United Nations
Millennium Declaration because I'm in the Guinness Book of
Records or the Great Canadian Character Anthology. It was
because I was right about the statistical genocide caused by
the usury banking system that an interest-free UNILETS
banking would correct; just as I am now right about the
statistical genocide caused by prohibition of cannabis that
can be corrected. As all the woes of the rum-running wars
ended with legalization, so too, the woes of the drug-
running wars will end with legalization.

Someone has got to put a stop to deaths due to drug wars
based on a now unconstitutional and dead law. Some must dare
to gamble on an issue of genocide. .

I will dare gamble that I am right. Do not dare gamble The
Engineer is wrong. Have someone fresh with high-school math
help you out.

Of course, The Gambler could be bluffing. So don't bust me
until I  open the bag.

John C. "The Engineer" Turmel, B. Eng.,
964 Bay Rd., L'Orignal, ON, K0B 1K0
Tel/fax: 613-562-0669
E: turmel@...

JCT: The only way you can help is to contact your nearest
CTV, CBC, GLOBAL, CanWest, National Post, Globe&Mail and ask
them what happened because, odds are, I won't be in a
position to give you a report tonight.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

First, I'd like to apologize to the membership of this group for the
following post.  I realize it's off topic but that really can't be
helped.  I will not, under any circumstances allow my group, my staff
or myself to be slandered in such a fashion by this person.  It's not
right and as a person who is persecuted daily for his religion, I've
decided that I am making a stand here.

First, let me say that I do run one of the largest Pagan general chat
groups on Yahoo, which, incidentally is what this is actually about.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with censorship.   My group has over
1400 members.  That is what this is about.  Merriam-Webster's
Dictionary defines censorship as "stopping the transmission or
publication of matter considered objectionable."  Obviously, this
means that anything Mr. Turmel had to say was not allowed on my group.

First, let me point out that Pagan Way is a group for those practicing
one of the Pagan Religions and those curious about it.  While the
issues he represents may well be important to Canada, only a very
small percentage of my membership is actually from there.  Most are
from either America or Europe.  Thus, there is little we could do to
support his causes, even were we so inclined.  However, that was not
the reason some of his posts were rejected.  Our primary problem is
bandwidth and volume.  We lose more members because of the large
number of posts, over 100 a day at present, than any other reason.
Our second largest reason, which is tied to the first, is the amount
of room our group takes up on individual mail servers.  Most have a 3
meg limit.  One of his posts is the equivalent of 4 or 5 of our
regular memberships.  This means that members boxes fill and they
start to bounce messages.  Thus, they leave.

Since he obviously posts ridiculously long posts that are topic
specific to Canadian political causes that do not involve Pagans
directly, my rejections were based on several factors.  One, his posts
had no relevance to Pagan lifestyle, religious beliefs, or the
politics of a majority of our membership.  Two, his posts were not
accompanied by any attempt to be part of the group.  They were simply
cross-posts that, in my view, seemed to have no relevance, and three,
they were excessively long thus causing both bandwidth and storage
problems.

However, not all my moderators felt the same and he did post 5 posts
to our group that got through.  Posts numbered #18351, #18477, #18492,
#18814 and #19017 did get through and are part of our archives.  The
only responses generated by my group to any of these were in the form
of private emails to me requesting that I do "something" because we
maxed out their storage again.  As losing 11 members is not worth the
hassle of having one member post ridiculously long and irreverent
posts, I rejected any further posts until I could try, somehow to
explain the situation to him.

His response was to post what I'm currently replying to all over the
Internet.  Very well, I have decided to hunt down each and every one
of these wherever they live and post my response.  I am not trying to
start a war, simply make sure that my side of this is also heard.  Mr.
Turmel is an emotionally disturbed individual who seems to have a
variety of personality disorders and needs some severe help.  I hope
someone reading this gets him that help before real harm is done.

Now, back to censorship.  I host 12 groups on Yahoo.  Pagan Way is the
main group.  I also host two different political groups that derive
their membership from Pagan Way.  He was offered the chance to join
and post his causes to those groups but refused.   At the end of his
post, he acknowledges that he knows of their existence but still sends
two flame posts through my group demanding that I allow them through
or be, as he eloquently put it in his email, "A chicken in shame...".

Since censorship means, "stopping the transmission or publication of
matter considered objectionable.", I'd like to know exactly how I did
that.  5 posts were allowed to be posted.  Anyone is welcomed to check
my archives and verify that.  I do have the right to keep my groups on
topic.  That comes with being a list owner.  He was offered a place
where his posts would be welcomed and yet he refused and, instead
flamed me on this group, numerous others and my own.  He, in fact,
flamed me twice on my group.  I do have the right to enforce the rules
of my list.  That also comes with being a list owner.  No flaming is a
general rule on most groups.  He demanded that I let my membership
know what was happening and I did comply with that request.

So, how am I guilty of running anything more than a topic oriented
list?   I should, in fact, be praised for creating other lists for
people who choose to debate politics and discuss other more specific
topics.  Running 12 lists is not an easy matter when none of them are
under 100 members.  I will add one more thing.  Approaching my staff
and asking that they post for him since, he is gagged until I get a
personal apology and a posted apology on each and every group that he
posted this nonsense on, was definitely a complete demonstration of
the class shown by this individual.  If he is, indeed an advocate for
anything, I would seriously suggest finding one more credible since,
to be frank, he shows the maturity of a 12 year old.  God knows what
damage he is doing or could do to, what I see, as legitimate causes in
Canada.

This man was not censored.  He was censured for acting like an idiot
and flaming the list owner in an attempt to intimidate his way past
me.  However, he picked the wrong Englishman to do that.  Pagans have
issues that literally involve life, death, and the welfare of our
children in the United States.  We can be attacked without legal
recourse.  We can have our kids taken from us because of our religious
beliefs.  We don't need to break any laws for this to happen and a
proven law breaker will often get more sympathy than we do.  I know.
It's happened to me.  I'm sorry that Mr. Turmel was unhappy with my
group but that gives him no excuse to post this all over the internet
in an attempt to cause me problems.  He needs to grow up and get a life.

I again apologize to the membership for this intrusion.  I felt I had
something that needed to be said and since he set the battlefield, not
me, I had no other choice but to respond in this fashion.  Pagans are
not evil people.  Nor are we any of the things many people have heard.
  Mostly, we want nothing more than to be left in peace.  However,
we're not punching bags either.  We are as human as you and deserve
the same rights as every other person here.

Sincerely;

Sir Raymond E. Nieman DD HKOS
Ordained Minister
Doctor of Divinity
Holy Knight in the Order of Saints
The Amber Adept

--- In UNILETS@yahoogroups.com, turmel@f... wrote:
> THE PAGAN WAY
> http://yahoogroups.com/group/the_pagan_way
> -------------------------------------------
>
> JCT: I'd hoped pagans would prove better than this:

Saint Jude, Patron of Lost Causes (saintjude2k@...) writes:
> turmel@... (johnturmel) wrote in message
news:<7f6df50c.030510
1826.3d9f544d@...>...
>
>> JCT: I have been cross-posting to these groups for years all articles
>> on LETS economic and monetary reform. So your system calls 5 groups
>> unreasonable and my ISP allows 7 and I think they're all relevant
>> to all 6 groups. So your equation denounces things that aren't
>> unreasonable.
>
>
>       Don't like equations?   Fine, here's a pure human opinion:
> John Turmel is a babbling idiot that reflexively dumps his garbage
> anywhere he wants to be heard.  Nobody likes John and nobody cares
> what he has to say.   His posts are a self-important waste of
> bandwidth, pseudo-intellectual mastarbation writ large on the
> electronic commons by a mental midget with delusions of grandeour.
> Go the fuck away, JT.   You don't seem to be wanted in alt.drugs, or
> probably anywhere else.   (Yes, I've actually asked in the groups he
> posts to.   Not a single soul has had even one word to say in his
> defense.   He is annoying, irrelivent, and a general waste of oxygen
> and electrons.)
>
Jct: I got a degree in electrical engineering and you're
still even with the monkeys.

and he lies too:

>Article #341184 (341198 is last):
>From: "white.lynx" <white.lynx@...>
>Newsgroups: alt.support.mult-sclerosis
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Censors at The_Pagan-Way, TOES, Richard Lake
>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:41:28 GMT

"Saint Jude, Patron of Lost Causes" wrote
>Does even one person think even one post of his was
>worth the bandwidth it took to transmit?

While I seldom read his posts, once in a while I do. I think
he has more a right to post them than anyone on the group
has to act as a censor. If you want a newsgroup without any
off-topic discussion, I suggest you start your own  His
topics touch on a topic of interest to numerous people in
the newsgroup. While it has an indirect connection to MS,
the issue of marijuana is relevant to the newsgroup in some
cases. Bandwidth and crossposting was more than issue in the
1980s.  Let it go! Larry
-------------------------------

>Article #341189 (341198 is last):
>From: "Bob Davidson" <phatbhat@...>
>Newsgroups: alt.support.mult-sclerosis
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: Censors at The_Pagan-Way, TOES, Richard Lake
>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 01:52:59 GMT

i follow his posts to the canadian medical marijuana assn.
and he is spending his time,money and efforts to help terry
parker and others who have found a problem with the medical
marijuana program in canada,, which is me, so this so called
garbage does concern me and i appreciate what he does for
the entire community of sick peoiple in canada,, i dont see
others doing much to assist me in this, i could care less if
he ever makes money, he should he works hard at this cause.

some of it sounds weird but anything concerning the medical
marijuana movement in canada is 100x more important than
chocolate. this is related to MS, well some of it,, i am not
into the banking stuff, i hate math.

but i read alot of his posts on his ongoing courtcase to
help anyone who has been screwed by health canada.


JCT: So beward foul-mouthed uneducated lying monkeys at a
keyboard.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
>From: mrbill19622002@... (Bill)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] my 2 cents

B: Erin's taking a rare break from the computer, allowing me
to add my thoughts to what is looking like an unecessary and
unfortunate eulogy for PEP. It is unfortunate to watch
someone devote so much of their heart and soul into a
project, only to have it sidelined by petty peripheral
arguments that, to the best of my knowledge, have done
nothing to further the anti-prohibitionist cause, only sap
and redirect energies that could have been so productive
otherwise.

JCT: Petty peripheral arguments between those posting
arguments to invalidate the law and Richard trying who
opposes them. For someone supposedly interested in ending
the law, I'd have thought someone would have asked Richard
to explain why he opposed Turmel's motion to end the law. He
used to tell us it was because Alan Young had condemned the
move. Now that Alan Young has had to beg the court to be
included in it, how does he explain his past reasons. And
how to you explain that you can stomach someone who opposes
invalidating prohibition to have a leading role in your
group?

B: I hope when Erin is able to recreate what she had tried
to accomplish here - and I have every bit of faith that she
will - that those who have participated in this list in an
honest and productive manner will join us in some actual
creative work.

JCT: You let it die hoping it will be recreated?

B: I know I'm looking forward to a forum where I can discuss
policies and philosophies with those who can keep on track,

JCT: Which you could not do here, you say? Why could you not
discuss policies and philosophies with members of Parents
Ending Prohibition, so much so, that you're looking forward
to a better class of correspondents?

B: and I will personally do everything I can to facilitate
her efforts. So to everyone who plans on helping to make a
real difference, it's been nice working with you.

JCT: So, does losing the ear of a bunch of chickens who
quietly see their association destroyed matter? Yes. When it
comes down to the crunch, those who couldn't pick between
"Turmel's motion to invalidate the prohibition" and
Richard's with to censor informaition about it, they most
often get in the way. Best to find out who the gutless ones
that can be manipulated by the opposition are right at the
start and say good riddance to getting them out of the game.
Is it better with Erin now on the sidelines, yes, if bowing
the Richard Lake shenanigans is her style of play.
-------------------------------

>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 04:06:24 +1000 (EST)
>From: sunset_and_spliff@... (Cheryl Sunset)
>Subject: Re: Taking a longer break
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

>Erin <hbmama1999@...> wrote:
>I've reached a difficult decision.

ahhhhhhh Erin... I've enjoyed being involved, albeit bold
and loud or silent and pensive. Sorry man, this IS fucked,
BUT totally understandable, if theres anything I can do,
email me whenever you want, or better still, have a break
theres a bed here in Ireland for you and your crew !! Take
care & PEACE..... Lots of Love from an Aussie buddy Cheryl

JCT: Yes, ending an association of these kinds of people
seems totally understantable. Actually, Bill explained that
it was understandable because he couldn't get an intelligent
conversation started with any of you any more. What's your
reason for understanding that it's better that your lines of
communication between group members be ended? Don't tell me
both you and Bill were waiting for someone else to start an
intelligent conversation and the group is going to die
because one of the two intelligent peeple in the group
didn't start a conversation.
=====

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: Re: Taking a longer break

Thanks for such a beautiful post and your support. You're
right... it's far more than just the obvious irritations and
humiliations on here. Sometimes ya just gotta know when to
fold the cards and walk away so you can survive to play
another day.

JCT: The question is why you have the right to kill it for
everyone else? Why, because you're tired of waiting for
discussion, should the group's deletion b eup to you? Do you
understand the power you are arrogating to yourself? "I have
decided to end the Parents Group," you say. Sad you were
flustered into doing something so autocratic just because
you can. Especially when you could just put it on "no
moderation" and let members who want to leave leave and
those who want to stay stay. Why do you have to kill the
party for everyone just because you want to go home. Is your
football and you're taking it home?

E: We're days away from the governor signing the bill here
(if he does!), and mostly, I need to focus my energy on that
this coming week. So I want this done with and not hanging
over my head after tonight. As you know, we moms don't have
the luxury of sitting around and typing hour after hour! LOL
I have to invest my time wisely, and this list is not a wise
investment right now. I know we'll talk more, so...tbc in
private! ;-) Erin

JCT: And there's no way you'll allow the group to continue
without you in charge, is what you're saying, right? If you
don't play, we don't play.

Margaret Jaques <Margiemix@...> wrote:
MJ: Erin, I stand by your decision completely and your
reasonings for it.

JCT: What a lot of support for the killing their baby.

MJ: I understand that "Turmoil" is not even a part of your
whole decision.

JCT: Actually, it's about Richard's insistence on banning
Turmel. And he's been such a wonderful brown-noser and
Turmel's taken his banning so boorishly, that it must be
really stressful having to comply with her friendly brown-
noser's need to ban the boor.

MJ: That your decision is solely based on this present time
in your life and your concerns at the moment.  Each concern
important and justified to you as a wife, parent and
activist for natural pharmacueticals.  (In that order
respectively.)

JCT: Killing the groups lines of communications is not your
decision, Erin. Do it and you'll regret it no matter what
these foul-thinking "friends" advise you to do.

MJ: Putting it all on the line, this group was started for
that very reason in which it is ending. The fact that we are
forced as parents to choose between our kids and the use of
a harmless plant.

JCT: It is not ending because parents are forced to choose,
it's ending because the guy trying to save the parents
from the choice is being banned by the guy who doesn't. The
group is dying because Richard Lake insists on making
trouble. And not because of your failure to attain your
goal. Though giving up does denote that failure, doesn't it?
Still, I don't think you have the groups goals in mind if
you disapprove of Turmoil's motion to invalidate the law.

MJ: "Sorry my odd leaved green and sticky buddy... but I
have to shelf ya for now." We all know the leaf isn't the
cause of family dysfunction, but the law that makes the leaf
a criminal. The law that makes inner cities dangerous and
breaks up familys. The law that has removed from us a
freedom we should all be able to pursue.  It limits our
medical choices and for many the quality of life.
The "law" is our shared enemy... NOT EACHOTHER!  Hugs to all
and hoping we meet again someday along our shared paths.
=Mix)

JCT: And you permitted the banning of the guy who is
fighting to invalidate the law by the guy opposing him. A
shame I hope I can have trail you for the rest of your
reformer's useless life. People don't get their big test in
public when they expect it and committing a strategic
mistake costs forever. Notice how Richard Lake officially
endorsing Professor Alan Young's "ensuring Turmel's motion
to invalidate the law does not proceed," indicts him
forever just as letting this group die because you didn't
disagree with him indicts you all too.

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: ParentsEndingProhibition Dies
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

What the hell is wrong with you??? I've seen zoo animals
with more humility and social graces! You really are a
cruel, heartless, sonuvabitch, and I'm glad to be rid of
you! Erin

JCT: Lady, you've acted gutless and I don't care how nice
you are if you don't condemn Richard Lake's banning me. You
let me back and then something happened to change your mind
and decide you have no alternative but kill the group. I'm
making sure you realize that if you kill a pro-marijuana
group because you don't support my motion to end prohibition
and you think there is no difference between Lake and me,
then you are being a hypocrite to your words "ending
prohibition." So you don't deserve my respect if you cave
in. And when you mentioned I was rough on you before, I'd
bet it was about the same kind of issue. Your not being able
to distinguish between the moles and the real reformers.
===

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:11:09 +0000
>From: mystery-magic@... (mysterymagic333)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Mr. Turmel
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

I have not been writing on this list for some time. I
realized when I did that my interests and feelings were
quite different from most the members.  As a result, I
decided to merely peek in from time to time to see how
things were going.  Most times I found the issues
interesting and informative...Never boring.

Now today I hear that Erin feels she has to close down the
site and I am very saddened.  I know Erin personally and she
is a loving, intelligent, caring, strong woman.  I know that
for her to reach this decision, it must have been extremely
difficult, and my heart goes out to her.

As for you, Mr. Turmel, you are nothing more than a horse's
patootie! (Don't know if that translates into Canadian but
I'll bet you can guess my meaning!)  You have insulted,
blamed and belittled Erin...an individual you obviously do
not know and for whom you have no appreciation.  You should
be ashamed, Sir!  You owe the lady a fervent apology.

JCT: And I feel the same way about a person who lets them do
what they just did to your lines of communication. You won't
be able to communicate with your group of friends any more
because Richard Lake did something to Erin between the time
everything was okay and the time the group had to die. I
have no respect for people like you mainly because you don't
even realize how weak a play you have made. I'm just glad
you're on the record of not defending your lines of
communications, even welcoming not being about to access
your whole groups of friends anymore.
===

>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:44:14 +0000
>From: t_bartlett@... ("Clarice T. Bartlett")
>Subject: medical approval..   8pg7z8m
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

Hey Bill, Long time no see, give your girl a huge from me
will ya??  take care &  PEACE Sunset (aka Cheryl)

JCT: Correspondence brought back to life by the group's
funeral.
===

>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 05:56:44 +1000 (EST)
>From: sunset_and_spliff@... (Cheryl Sunset)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: ParentsEndingProhibition Dies
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

CS: WTF??........... who the hell ARE you, or should I say
WHAT? An android with no emotions???

JCT: Yes. A cold hard exposer of weakness and cowardice, no
matter how nice the victim.

CS: Damn so far all the way through ST, (and I've been a
member there for ages) and the newer and sometimes wiser
PEP, I have soooooo refrained from saying anything to this
gentlemen who is the object of the subject (lol...that made
me laugh) matter below (and I use that term 'gentle' very,
extremely, utterly, conclusively, toooooootally.............
loosely) but.................. " Those who say do not
know.......... those who know do not say " And as far as I
can remember, after all I AM a stoner, I think I made that
up......... *stands up and takes a bow* But surely not,
cause I reckon every word, and opinioin has been written
and/or opined before. take care and INNER PEACE to ya Sunset
(aka Cheryl......... even answers to the pothead from
downunder)

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:16:06 +0000
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Till a little later....

Ok, folks... as of 6pm, the list will be history.
I just wanted to end with a tiny bit of dignity and grace,
so I'd  like to share some thoughts about tomorrow.

JCT: There's no dignity in cowardice, Erin. Nor in being
played for a fool.

E: In honor of Mother's Day, would you all please take just
a few moments to write a letter, expressing your feelings as
parents about the wod, to an elected official or a
newspaper?

JCT: I'm a politician fighting for medpot. A rarity. And you
want to write to a politician but reject any politician who
comes to you?

E: If you don't feel comfortable being this bold, then
perhaps just light a candle and remember the mothers who are
spending tomorrow behind bars and away from their kids, and
those whose kids have become collateral damage in this war.
I find those kinds of meditations to be very motivating when
I'm afraid or discouraged!  Perhaps you will too.

JCT: You might think writing letters with the herd is bold
but standing out in a crowd and doing your dyty is bold.

E: It's not going to change overnight, but the more people
like me, who are inspired to action through these message
boards, and come forward, the faster the changes will come!
You've all inspired me, and I've learned a lot by starting
this group. Thank you very much for sharing in my little
project :-)!
I'd like to say it's been a pleasure knowing all of you, but
this would clearly be untrue LOL.  Instead, I wish you all
great success in your efforts to end prohibition, and much
love in your lives! Onward.... Erin

JCT: Bunch of losers defeated by prohibitionist forces
deserve no respect at the funeral. Good riddance to a group
that won't fight for survival.

Parents ending prohibition by making sure Turmel's motion t0
end prohibition does not succeed! Har har har har.

Erin, you'll never live it down. And Richard's just been
exposed a lot more to kill your 34-person group.

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: [ParentsEndingProhibition] my 2 cents

LMAO  I love you guys! ;-)

JCT: Bye, losers.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
>From: mrbill19622002@... (Bill)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] my 2 cents

B: Erin's taking a rare break from the computer, allowing me
to add my thoughts to what is looking like an unecessary and
unfortunate eulogy for PEP. It is unfortunate to watch
someone devote so much of their heart and soul into a
project, only to have it sidelined by petty peripheral
arguments that, to the best of my knowledge, have done
nothing to further the anti-prohibitionist cause, only sap
and redirect energies that could have been so productive
otherwise.

JCT: Petty peripheral arguments between those posting
arguments to invalidate the law and Richard trying who
opposes them. For someone supposedly interested in ending
the law, I'd have thought someone would have asked Richard
to explain why he opposed Turmel's motion to end the law. He
used to tell us it was because Alan Young had condemned the
move. Now that Alan Young has had to beg the court to be
included in it, how does he explain his past reasons. And
how to you explain that you can stomach someone who opposes
invalidating prohibition to have a leading role in your
group?

B: I hope when Erin is able to recreate what she had tried
to accomplish here - and I have every bit of faith that she
will - that those who have participated in this list in an
honest and productive manner will join us in some actual
creative work.

JCT: You let it die hoping it will be recreated?

B: I know I'm looking forward to a forum where I can discuss
policies and philosophies with those who can keep on track,

JCT: Which you could not do here, you say? Why could you not
discuss policies and philosophies with members of Parents
Ending Prohibition, so much so, that you're looking forward
to a better class of correspondents?

B: and I will personally do everything I can to facilitate
her efforts. So to everyone who plans on helping to make a
real difference, it's been nice working with you.

JCT: So, does losing the ear of a bunch of chickens who
quietly see their association destroyed matter? Yes. When it
comes down to the crunch, those who couldn't pick between
"Turmel's motion to invalidate the prohibition" and
Richard's with to censor informaition about it, they most
often get in the way. Best to find out who the gutless ones
that can be manipulated by the opposition are right at the
start and say good riddance to getting them out of the game.
Is it better with Erin now on the sidelines, yes, if bowing
the Richard Lake shenanigans is her style of play.
-------------------------------

>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 04:06:24 +1000 (EST)
>From: sunset_and_spliff@... (Cheryl Sunset)
>Subject: Re: Taking a longer break
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

>Erin <hbmama1999@...> wrote:
>I've reached a difficult decision.

ahhhhhhh Erin... I've enjoyed being involved, albeit bold
and loud or silent and pensive. Sorry man, this IS fucked,
BUT totally understandable, if theres anything I can do,
email me whenever you want, or better still, have a break
theres a bed here in Ireland for you and your crew !! Take
care & PEACE..... Lots of Love from an Aussie buddy Cheryl

JCT: Yes, ending an association of these kinds of people
seems totally understantable. Actually, Bill explained that
it was understandable because he couldn't get an intelligent
conversation started with any of you any more. What's your
reason for understanding that it's better that your lines of
communication between group members be ended? Don't tell me
both you and Bill were waiting for someone else to start an
intelligent conversation and the group is going to die
because one of the two intelligent peeple in the group
didn't start a conversation.
=====

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: Re: Taking a longer break

Thanks for such a beautiful post and your support. You're
right... it's far more than just the obvious irritations and
humiliations on here. Sometimes ya just gotta know when to
fold the cards and walk away so you can survive to play
another day.

JCT: The question is why you have the right to kill it for
everyone else? Why, because you're tired of waiting for
discussion, should the group's deletion b eup to you? Do you
understand the power you are arrogating to yourself? "I have
decided to end the Parents Group," you say. Sad you were
flustered into doing something so autocratic just because
you can. Especially when you could just put it on "no
moderation" and let members who want to leave leave and
those who want to stay stay. Why do you have to kill the
party for everyone just because you want to go home. Is your
football and you're taking it home?

E: We're days away from the governor signing the bill here
(if he does!), and mostly, I need to focus my energy on that
this coming week. So I want this done with and not hanging
over my head after tonight. As you know, we moms don't have
the luxury of sitting around and typing hour after hour! LOL
I have to invest my time wisely, and this list is not a wise
investment right now. I know we'll talk more, so...tbc in
private! ;-) Erin

JCT: And there's no way you'll allow the group to continue
without you in charge, is what you're saying, right? If you
don't play, we don't play.

Margaret Jaques <Margiemix@...> wrote:
MJ: Erin, I stand by your decision completely and your
reasonings for it.

JCT: What a lot of support for the killing their baby.

MJ: I understand that "Turmoil" is not even a part of your
whole decision.

JCT: Actually, it's about Richard's insistence on banning
Turmel. And he's been such a wonderful brown-noser and
Turmel's taken his banning so boorishly, that it must be
really stressful having to comply with her friendly brown-
noser's need to ban the boor.

MJ: That your decision is solely based on this present time
in your life and your concerns at the moment.  Each concern
important and justified to you as a wife, parent and
activist for natural pharmacueticals.  (In that order
respectively.)

JCT: Killing the groups lines of communications is not your
decision, Erin. Do it and you'll regret it no matter what
these foul-thinking "friends" advise you to do.

MJ: Putting it all on the line, this group was started for
that very reason in which it is ending. The fact that we are
forced as parents to choose between our kids and the use of
a harmless plant.

JCT: It is not ending because parents are forced to choose,
it's ending because the guy trying to save the parents
from the choice is being banned by the guy who doesn't. The
group is dying because Richard Lake insists on making
trouble. And not because of your failure to attain your
goal. Though giving up does denote that failure, doesn't it?
Still, I don't think you have the groups goals in mind if
you disapprove of Turmoil's motion to invalidate the law.

MJ: "Sorry my odd leaved green and sticky buddy... but I
have to shelf ya for now." We all know the leaf isn't the
cause of family dysfunction, but the law that makes the leaf
a criminal. The law that makes inner cities dangerous and
breaks up familys. The law that has removed from us a
freedom we should all be able to pursue.  It limits our
medical choices and for many the quality of life.
The "law" is our shared enemy... NOT EACHOTHER!  Hugs to all
and hoping we meet again someday along our shared paths.
=Mix)

JCT: And you permitted the banning of the guy who is
fighting to invalidate the law by the guy opposing him. A
shame I hope I can have trail you for the rest of your
reformer's useless life. People don't get their big test in
public when they expect it and committing a strategic
mistake costs forever. Notice how Richard Lake officially
endorsing Professor Alan Young's "ensuring Turmel's motion
to invalidate the law does not proceed," indicts him
forever just as letting this group die because you didn't
disagree with him indicts you all too.

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: ParentsEndingProhibition Dies
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

What the hell is wrong with you??? I've seen zoo animals
with more humility and social graces! You really are a
cruel, heartless, sonuvabitch, and I'm glad to be rid of
you! Erin

JCT: Lady, you've acted gutless and I don't care how nice
you are if you don't condemn Richard Lake's banning me. You
let me back and then something happened to change your mind
and decide you have no alternative but kill the group. I'm
making sure you realize that if you kill a pro-marijuana
group because you don't support my motion to end prohibition
and you think there is no difference between Lake and me,
then you are being a hypocrite to your words "ending
prohibition." So you don't deserve my respect if you cave
in. And when you mentioned I was rough on you before, I'd
bet it was about the same kind of issue. Your not being able
to distinguish between the moles and the real reformers.
===

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:11:09 +0000
>From: mystery-magic@... (mysterymagic333)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Mr. Turmel
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

I have not been writing on this list for some time. I
realized when I did that my interests and feelings were
quite different from most the members.  As a result, I
decided to merely peek in from time to time to see how
things were going.  Most times I found the issues
interesting and informative...Never boring.

Now today I hear that Erin feels she has to close down the
site and I am very saddened.  I know Erin personally and she
is a loving, intelligent, caring, strong woman.  I know that
for her to reach this decision, it must have been extremely
difficult, and my heart goes out to her.

As for you, Mr. Turmel, you are nothing more than a horse's
patootie! (Don't know if that translates into Canadian but
I'll bet you can guess my meaning!)  You have insulted,
blamed and belittled Erin...an individual you obviously do
not know and for whom you have no appreciation.  You should
be ashamed, Sir!  You owe the lady a fervent apology.

JCT: And I feel the same way about a person who lets them do
what they just did to your lines of communication. You won't
be able to communicate with your group of friends any more
because Richard Lake did something to Erin between the time
everything was okay and the time the group had to die. I
have no respect for people like you mainly because you don't
even realize how weak a play you have made. I'm just glad
you're on the record of not defending your lines of
communications, even welcoming not being about to access
your whole groups of friends anymore.
===

>Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:44:14 +0000
>From: t_bartlett@... ("Clarice T. Bartlett")
>Subject: medical approval..   8pg7z8m
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

Hey Bill, Long time no see, give your girl a huge from me
will ya??  take care &  PEACE Sunset (aka Cheryl)

JCT: Correspondence brought back to life by the group's
funeral.
===

>Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 05:56:44 +1000 (EST)
>From: sunset_and_spliff@... (Cheryl Sunset)
>Subject: Re: TURMEL: ParentsEndingProhibition Dies
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

CS: WTF??........... who the hell ARE you, or should I say
WHAT? An android with no emotions???

JCT: Yes. A cold hard exposer of weakness and cowardice, no
matter how nice the victim.

CS: Damn so far all the way through ST, (and I've been a
member there for ages) and the newer and sometimes wiser
PEP, I have soooooo refrained from saying anything to this
gentlemen who is the object of the subject (lol...that made
me laugh) matter below (and I use that term 'gentle' very,
extremely, utterly, conclusively, toooooootally.............
loosely) but.................. " Those who say do not
know.......... those who know do not say " And as far as I
can remember, after all I AM a stoner, I think I made that
up......... *stands up and takes a bow* But surely not,
cause I reckon every word, and opinioin has been written
and/or opined before. take care and INNER PEACE to ya Sunset
(aka Cheryl......... even answers to the pothead from
downunder)

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:16:06 +0000
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Till a little later....

Ok, folks... as of 6pm, the list will be history.
I just wanted to end with a tiny bit of dignity and grace,
so I'd  like to share some thoughts about tomorrow.

JCT: There's no dignity in cowardice, Erin. Nor in being
played for a fool.

E: In honor of Mother's Day, would you all please take just
a few moments to write a letter, expressing your feelings as
parents about the wod, to an elected official or a
newspaper?

JCT: I'm a politician fighting for medpot. A rarity. And you
want to write to a politician but reject any politician who
comes to you?

E: If you don't feel comfortable being this bold, then
perhaps just light a candle and remember the mothers who are
spending tomorrow behind bars and away from their kids, and
those whose kids have become collateral damage in this war.
I find those kinds of meditations to be very motivating when
I'm afraid or discouraged!  Perhaps you will too.

JCT: You might think writing letters with the herd is bold
but standing out in a crowd and doing your dyty is bold.

E: It's not going to change overnight, but the more people
like me, who are inspired to action through these message
boards, and come forward, the faster the changes will come!
You've all inspired me, and I've learned a lot by starting
this group. Thank you very much for sharing in my little
project :-)!
I'd like to say it's been a pleasure knowing all of you, but
this would clearly be untrue LOL.  Instead, I wish you all
great success in your efforts to end prohibition, and much
love in your lives! Onward.... Erin

JCT: Bunch of losers defeated by prohibitionist forces
deserve no respect at the funeral. Good riddance to a group
that won't fight for survival.

Parents ending prohibition by making sure Turmel's motion t0
end prohibition does not succeed! Har har har har.

Erin, you'll never live it down. And Richard's just been
exposed a lot more to kill your 34-person group.

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: [ParentsEndingProhibition] my 2 cents

LMAO  I love you guys! ;-)

JCT: Bye, losers.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

You'll remember in my last general post on censorship, I
had written

>JCT: Imagine, Richard Lake and his kennel crew got
"parentsendingprohibition" to ban my posts and I'm the only
politician that I know of arguing kids have a right to the
best relief sedation too. Listen in to my 2-hours on CFRA at
http://www.cfra.com tonight at 5pm to hear what you've
probably never heard argued before and then consider that
the moderator of parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
silenced me without telling his members what he did and
now they're missing it. Of course, that's the whole purpose
of Richard and his crew of complainers and it often works.
Especially when moderators censor and then are so ashamed
they have to continue to censor the discussion of their
censorship.

JCT: That elicited a response from the moderator:

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Hello again, Mr. Turmel
>To: parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
>Cc: rlake@..., TURMEL@...

JCT: In it, Erin mentioned:

E: On March 13, Richard Lake posted this to the PEP list,
"Oh, and finally, no need to worry about wearing out your
delete key! John Turmel is history on this list. If you
really like to read his stuff, sign up for his discussion
list, a yahoogroups list called medpot-discuss."

Basically, Richard approached me and offered to help with
PEP. I gratefully accepted, and turned over control of the
list to him. At the same time, I had written Mr. Turmel,
asking that he not post attacks on other reformers to my
list, but before he did so again, Richard banned him.

I was not comfortable with this, but Richard explained that
once the list is moved to the DrugSense servers, it would be
impossible for Mr. Turmel to post, anyway, as he's banned
from their servers. Over what was to be a few posts, I
wasn't about to argue.

JCT: So I was invited back and rejoined and resend my intro.

>Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 19:13:01 -0400 (EDT)
>From: TURMEL@... (John Turmel)
>Subject: TURMEL: Intro to "The Engineer"
>To: parentsendingprobition@yahoogroups.com

[... With special focus on parents giving their kids
marijuana muffins instead of Prozac and Ritalin, I refer you
to a CFRA radio debate between me and two RCMP who were
shocked at the thought of depriving youth of their Prozac
and Ritalin.
http://yahoogroups.com/group/medpot-discuss/messages/2221

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:24:58 +0000
>From: ParentsEndingProhibition-owner@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Welcome to the ParentsEndingProhibition group
>To: TURMEL@...

Welcome to Parents Ending Prohibition. This forum is open to
anyone with an opinion about whether or not pot prohibition
should continue in North America. My personal opinion is
that it's time for it to end, but I will try not to be so
arrogant as to believe I have all of the answers, or even
all of the questions. I ask that all members try to do the
same. That said, my emphasis here is to try to unite parents
to call for an end to prohibition. More than half of our
kids *will* experiment at some time, just as many of us did.
There are better ways to guide them toward becoming
responsible adults than by turning them into criminals and
incarcerating them. Let's explore some of them as well as
discuss how to safely, sanely, and effectively end
prohibition.

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 10:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: reply to your post
>To: TURMEL@...

E: Mr. Turmel, I do appreciate you keeping this off PEP.
Thank you. I don't know if you read posts from Stoner Times,
so I am forwarding my reply to your post on there, to you.
Can't you please just leave PEP and me out of it? From your
posts, I'd guess you have plenty of other ammunition ready
to lob in his direction, so please just end my involvement
here. Erin
Give me a break! I am no more convinced Richard has been
helping me, to somehow get at you, than I am that you're
purposely trying to sabotage reform!
You two snipe at each other like you have nothing better to
do. Well, I do. In the time it's taken to write these
emails, I could've written and submitted two lte's and baked
cookies with the kids! :-P

JCT: Yes, but I always snipe in public, Richard snipes
behind my back.

E: If anyone mistakenly sees anything I'm saying as trying
to take one side or the other in this debate, I apologize
for the misunderstanding. I want PEP to be open to anyone
who wants to post on-topic and who can do so civily. Period.
Erin

JCT: So what did I do wrong to be banned without any
discussion other than "Richard did it." Regardless, the
group was now back on my distribution list and I thought
everything was okay. Guess the backroom boys were at work:

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 18:56:04 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Taking a longer break
>To: parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com

Hi everyone. Sorry for the confusion lately. I've reached a
difficult decision. As of tomorrow, this list will be
deleted. It stopped being fun or informative awhile ago, and
that's why it was started. I can't do this anymore.

JCT: Notice that it has to be deleted right away.

E: I'm so tired of trying to figure out alliances and camps
and moles and spies! I'm so fed up with worrying about any
of this shit.

JCT: I guess a lot of pressure suddenly happened. Bet I get
equally blamed, just to be fair.

E: It's just not worth the time or effort to keep a PEP
forum going right now, and I honestly just don't plan on
posting for a long time. I appreciate the input from
everyone over the months! It's been wonderful to get to know
so many of you through this list. I'm sorry I can't keep it
going and bring new life to it right now. As I develop my
site, and I have a better focus, I'll consider starting a
new group. All of you will be the first ones invited, and at
that time I'll be able to devote much more of myself to it.
I'm very sorry for any of my recent comments which any
members found offensive. This certainly was never my
intention. I wish you all great success in your efforts to
end mj prohibition!
>p.s. Please save any archived messages or files that you
want before 6pm tomorrow. I'll have some saved to my hard
drive after that, but not all.

JCT: I had to comment:

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 02:24:13 +0000
>From: TURMEL@... ("John C. Turmel")
>Subject: [ParentsEndingProhibition] Re: Taking a longer break

JCT: There is no reason for you to kill the group because
you are busy. It's not as if there's a lot of traffic. Open
it up and we'll skip any spam.
I know you're discouraged over Richard Lake trying to censor
me, and me trying to get back in the group, NOT me censoring
Richard\Lake. If you kill the group, then he will have won
in killing my input to your members.
There is no reason to kill your group. Please don't.

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:40:06 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Re: [PEP] Re: Taking a longer break

No, Mr. Turmel... I am not "discouraged over Richard Lake
trying to censor" you. I'm discouraged because I'm sick and
tired of being put in the middle of this.

JCT: You're caught in the middle of Turmel wanting to post
articles in favor invalidating prohibition and Richard Lake
wanting to stop me. Being impartial over this issue is no
cause for pride.

E: When a stranger googles "Parents Ending Prohibition", I'd
rather they not get long, rambling emails about he said she
said.

JCT: I can understand how the story of the background hurts
and how you'd prefer to have the archives deleted but the
story of Richard's using you and then you pulling the plug
instead of letting it be free again will remain the story.
Forever.

E: I've tried to be fair.

JCT: Shame on you for being fair to the ones who want to
censor as the ones who want to post.

E: Even to you, the same man who refused to answer my tough
questions when I replied to your ridicule of me awhile back,
before you ever joined PEP.

JCT: I have no idea what you're talking about but you must
have given me something of substance to ridicule you with.

E: Still, if you chose to actually keep posts on topic and
not flame anyone, I felt that was reason enough to let you
stay. But here we are again... you couldn't resist the dig
at Richard, could you?

JCT: I couldn't resist exposing that Richard got control
over your group so he could ban me? You call that exposure a
dig. Sure, he should be ashamed but hiding shameful acts
does not construe improper digs. Your parents deserve to
know why their feed from me was cut without stated reason.

E: I have had it with message boards too!  Now I'm beginning
to understand why some people avoid them like the plague! So
you go ahead and attack....flame away, and try to get it all
out of your system for once, because it will all be deleted.

JCT: Your destroying your group to hide what Richard tricked
you into doing won't go away. Just your cowardice to stay
true. You did right in permitting my on-topic posts back and
now you're doing wrong in bending to Richard's back-room
pressures. And as I said, destroying your archives won't
help, the shameful stuff is already published everywhere

E: There are too many more important things I should be
doing with my time. This has become the cyber equivalent of
a soap opera, and accomplishes about as much in mj reform as
sitting on our asses and watching one!

JCT: The cyber-opera over me trying end prohibition and
Richard talking parents ending prohibition into banning me.
You permitted it and now want to duck the consequences?

E: So, please, Mr. Turmel...  spare me your "sympathy" over
what I have to endure from Richard! Erin

JCT: I only had sympathy for the pressure he's putting you
under to complete his censorship job by killing your group.
I don't have any sympathy for your weakness in allowing him
to wear you down into doing it.

So I had to make a quick response:

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:27:53 -0400 (EDT)
>From: TURMEL@...
>Subject: Re: [PEP] Re: Taking a longer break
>To: parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com

Jct: And what have had you to endure from me? All I ever did
wrong was post to the group. You permitted me to be banned.
So what did I do?

RICHARD LAKE responds:

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:08:38 -0400
>From: rlake@... (Richard Lake)
>Subject: On civil discussions,  PEP,
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

Erin and Friends,

RL: It is sad that you feel you must back away from Parents
Ending Prohibition's current email discussion list for a
while and regroup, Erin. But it is understandable.

JCT: Right Erin. He's sad that YOU feel that YOU should back
away. He calls destroying your list an understandable re-
grouping.

RL: Know that you have many friends who believe in the
vision you had, and I believe still have, when you wrote
your purpose to introduce this list:

"to unite parents to call for an end to prohibition. More
than half of our kids *will* experiment at some time, just
as many of us did. There are better ways to guide them
toward becoming responsible adults than by turning them into
criminals and incarcerating them."

JCT: Erin, why don't you ask Richard why he supported  Alan
Young who said "I went to Parker's hearing to ensure
Turmel's motion to invalidate the law would not proceed?" As
far as I'll tell, you supported them too if you kill this
list as they desire. You way you're a parent ending
prohibition but support guys who oppose my ending
prohibition. How do you explain that contradiction unless
you're a mole too. The only other possibility is friendly
dupe. But that's what Young said and now you know why
Richard opposes me. And you say you don't want to take sides
with those wanting to end the law and those opposing me.

RL:We know you have tried hard to be fair to all the list
members.

JCT: Yes, even the Judases to the cause like you, Richard
Lake. That's the indictment of Erin. She did not oppose you
as you opposed her groups aim to end prohibition. Here you
are overtly opposing invalidating the law and she doesn't
know who her friends are nor her enemies. Sorry, but she
deserves whatever emotion is generated by her failure to
recognise you for the government traitor that you are.

RL: However, not all are willing to engage in civil
discussions, to attempt to be on topic, to not engage in
personal attacks against other list members or reformers, to
not lower the standard of discussion to name calling, to not
make private email messages public. Just common sense
standards that weall should expect for civil discussions in
any discussion list or forum.

JCT: And of course, Richard is not willing to debate at all
when he can ban his opponent. Erin, go to the
http://yahoogroups.com/group/medpot-discuss/messages and
search for Richard Lake to see that he ran away from debate
there and is doing the only thing he can do over here,
censor it. And you let him. And kill it. And you let him.

RL: These goals or rules for civil discussion are expressed
in various ways by various listowners. I find how they are
expressed by Gary Storck, listmaster of the very large and
successful Drug Policy Forum of Wisconsin (as well as
webmaster for Is My Medicine Legal YET? http://www.immly.org
) list at http://www.drugsense.org/dpfwi/list_guidelines.htm
to be good common sense rules for civil discussion, as I am
sure most of us do:

JCT: Forget that he opposes invalidating prohibition and
reduce it all down to a question of Netiquette.
-----

Please stay on topic. Drug policy issues only. Post
privately when appropriate - keep the volume down. Always
ask yourself if this will benefit the list before posting a
message.
No personal attacks or put-downs. If you must correct the
rule should be criticize in private praise in public.

JCT: Don't traitors and saboteurs like this rule. No
criticisms allowed of Richard's traitorous opposition to
invalidating the law.

RL: No Personal Attacks On Drug Policy Reform Individuals Or
Organizations.

JCT: Ditto. No personal attacks on the traitors and
saboteurs. Who wrote these rules, the saboteurs?

RL: No soliciting of funds or advertising without the
permission of the list owner.
Do not post a private message from someone else to the list
without their express knowledge and approval.
Private e mail threats and harassment may be reviewed and
dealt with in serious situations.
When posting to the list, please post your message to the
list in text only, since file attachments and graphics
cannot be processed by this list's software and html-based
e-mail is sent with coding that may be distracting to many
subscribers that receive text-only e-mail service.
The consequences for violating these guidelines may range
from a simple private reminder, to censure or suspension or
removal from the list depending upon the severity of the
offense.

JCT: Sounds like a betrayer's paradise. No criticisms
allowed. Even of saboteurs who would kill the list.
-----

RL: Of course those who can not live by such simple rules
for civil discussions will scream censorship if they are
taken to task, or pretend not to understand by asking "So
what did I do?" as if they had not a clue.

JCT: So those are the rules we must all obey, directly from
the Newsgroup Fuhrer. These are the grounds for censorship
on the net. I guess that this should make Erin feel better.
Turmel broke a lot of Richard's rules so censoring me must
be okay.

RL; But we know that among those who join reform community
discussion lists folks who are unable, for whatever reasons,
to abide by common sense rules for civil discussions are a
very, very tiny handful. Erin, it is unfortunate that you
have had to experience this kind of a problem, but it
happens to listowners from time to time.

JCT: Moderators just keep facing problems like Turmel having
to be censored.

RL: Some will say that I personally have been no better,
responding to the name calling and outright lies. Of course
this is true, and I regret it. It is hard not to react when
you slandered, or even when you see so many other good
activists slandered. I apologize for when I have reacted in
anger, and ask you all to forgive me. I should never let any
one person who wishes to turn civil discussion into a free
for all get under my skin. I must learn to recognize that
lowering myself to their standards accomplishes nothing, and
is exactly what those who are unwilling to engage in civil
discussions wish for.

JCT: You ran away from discussion with Michael Muirhead and
he never made fun of you like I do. He just kept proving
your allegations false until you unsubscribed in a huff to
them keep your opposition behind the scenes.

RL: Erin, know that we support you in your decision to close
down the yahoogroups discussion now. It has served it's
purpose well and we have learned much, even if what we have
learned has not always been exactly what you had hoped for
at the start.

JCT: Of course they support you in closing down my lines of
communication to your group. That's was the intention
from the start. Do you think Richard and his kennel of
Bitchcrafts join these groups I post to to read the chit
chat? And they come to the conclusion that they'll ask the
moderator to ban me or let them be moderators so they can do
it for them?

RL:Your activism, Erin, has inspired us all!  Your stand in
Maryland for cannabis patients makes all of us who know
about it proud to say we know of you and your work!

JCT: All your activism will be permanently smeared and
you'll never be able to hold your head up high about it
again if you let Richard stress you into killing your group.
Sad but true. This is your real test, not your support in
the past. Just as Richard's real test came when he chose to
oppose my motion to end prohibition.

RL:We look forward to the rebirth of Parents Ending
Prohibition discussion list - and know that all who are
currently on the list, and all who have left because they
were not ready to handle less than civil discussions, will
be invited back to the new discussion list (without
thosepesky ads) and the new website.

JCT: And how about any who left because they don't like not
knowing what they didn't get to see because it was censored?

RL: In due time we are sure Parents Ending Prohibition will
take it's place among the great organizations of reform
which center their efforts towards supporting specific
communities, like the many state organizations, and groups
like Students for a Sensible Drug Policy
http://www.ssdp.orgTeachers Against Prohibition
http://www.teachersagainstprohibition.org/ LawEnforcement
Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc and others.

JCT: With traitor Richard Lake at the helm making sure to
oppose Turmel's motion to end prohibition does not succeed,
I doubt parents ending prohibition will get very far.

RL: Parents is your idea, Erin. Nobody can ever take that
away from you. We parents, who live in fear, because of the
harm of prohibition, need theorganization that has been, and
will continue to be, your vision.

JCT: It was a great idea. Parents demanding the right to
choose mari-muffins instead of Prozac and Ritalin for
their kids are the strongest advocates possible. Sad to see
such a group die just because Richard needs to have me
censored.

RL: Personally, Erin and friends, I must spend the next few
weeks with somewhat lowered activity, as my wife and I
support my son, a long time medical cannabis patient who
will next week undergo a serious operation, neurosurgery, in
the hope that it can prevent him from becoming paralyzed
from the waist down slowly over the next few years - but
with a smallchance that the operation may even result in him
becoming paralyzed now. It is truly frightening for his
parents and grandparents to think about -- such an active
and successful young man facing these prospects. But we live
in hope, and thank everyone who has sent their kind wishes.

JCT: Wow. He opposes my motion to invalidate the law with
his own child to suffer for his success. What a rat to have
for a father.

Richard Lake
p.s. Erin, please hang in there! I will give you a call as
soon as I am able. We do love you!

JCT: A brown-nosing rat too.

>Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
>From: nickdabear@... (Morgan DragonStar)
>Subject: So Long, and thanks for all the fish...
>To: ParentsEndingProhibition@yahoogroups.com

MD: As this list wraps up it's current incarnation, I just
wanted to tell everyone thanks. Almost everyone. Mr. Turmel,
I am another moderator on this list. I am not Richard Lake,
nor have we ever chatted, phoned, or as much as exchanged
emails. Bottom line, I wanted to ban you from the list back
when the concept was first giving Erin torment.

JCT: Thanks for admitting your instincts. The only torment I
ever gave Erin was posting my medpot articles. Then
again, what's so tormenting about that? Oh right. When
Richar started complaining, that's when my stuff became
tormenting for her.

MD: I believe you need mental health help.

JCT: One of us must.

MD: As for the rest of us, I'll miss you, and hope to see
you all again when this re-incarnates. Hugs and Clean Cool
Water, Morgan

JCT: Boy are you quick to plan the funeral. No chance you
want the group to survive, is there.

=====
MD: "Evil? No, it's only evil if I don't care.
Wait a minute...
I don't."
Cap

JCT: Thanks for admitting it. I don't think I could have
indicted you any better than your own words. You don't care
who's evil and who's not, do you? Says it all.

So goodbye to a good idea. A forum for parents ending
prohibition. And remember, everything was just fine only
yesterday until, mysteriously, Erin felt under a great deal
of pressure to kill her baby. Everyone expresses their
understanding at how her baby must be deleted, except me,
and since they've been brown-nosing for quite a while, and I
don't, I guess the association of concerned parents dies
with Erin's capitulation to the supporters of prohibition.

What a failing note to end parentsendingprohibition on.
Banning the true Abolitionist at the urgings of the secret
Prohibitionists. I only did a whole post on this because
it's so amazing and instructive as to how the government
moles do their dirty work to make sure the groups they work
with don't ever succeed at actually doing anything positive
but talk.

I'll count the death of parentsendingprohibition as a
victory of me even though he's never managed to beat by
debate, just by censorship.

And keep in mind, these kinds of moles working against the
real purposes of groups are everywhere. I've exposed the 50
Years is Enough crew in Washington who suppressed every
mention of the UNILETS interest-free banking system to the
anti-bank protesters, the Mobilisation for Justice group who
censor every post, even the Bernard Lietaers of the
community currency world, the invited speakers who have it
all wrong, just go to show how the innocent are being
misled. Lietaer is supposed to be a community currency
champion and his latest post advocates staying with the
government's interest-bearing money.

As Fletcher Prouty's book Secret Team points out, the
government has their Judas agents posted everywhere. Lietaer
never responded to my charges. How could he? But everyone at
the International Journal of Community Currencies (IJCCR)
don't care. That is what I indict them of. Not caring who is
right and only caring about being as fair to the moles as to
the patriots.

For anyone who'd like to see or grab the archives before
Erin destroys them, they're at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/parentsendingprohibition/messages


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

THE PAGAN WAY
http://yahoogroups.com/group/the_pagan_way
-------------------------------------------

JCT: I'd hoped pagans would prove better than this:

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:10:49 +0000
>From: amberadept@... ("Rev. Sir Raymond E. Nieman D.D. HKOS")
>Subject: Message not approved: TURMEL: Censorship battles:
>To: TURMEL@...
Post rejected.  See accompanying email for details.
=====

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 12:58:51 -0400
>From: amberadept@... (Amber Adept)
>Subject: Reason for post rejection.
>To: TURMEL@...

AA: Ok, I personally rejected your three other posts because
they were not relevant to anything being discussed within
the group and I had no idea what in the 7 hells you were
talking about. Insulting my staff and I isn't going to fly
with me either.I'll address your concerns one by one so,
perhaps you'll get the point.

JCT: I have no doubt you'll be able to offer the loftiest
reasons for your readers not getting the info.

AA: Your posts are rejected because of inappropriate or
incomprehensible content. I have a thing, call me funny that
way, about people actually making sense on my lists.

JCT: Incomprehensible to whom? Oh, to you? What if you're
the slowest one in the group? And, to those people who have
comprehended my writings in the past, you now appear to be
an uncomprehending person who is in control of the debate.
And who wants to have their debate limited to the
capabilities of the slowest in the group?
Imagine, finding incomprehensible my posts on medpot or
usury. Maybe you should go out and get a science degree like
me and then maybe things would be more comprehensible to
you. Then again, if you couldn't follow this so far, I doubt
you could pass any engineering course.

> 1) Richard Lake, CraftyBitch and their his gang of
> saboteurs may have joined the group to complain to the
> moderators hoping they'll fall for it an become their
> censors; many do.

AA:I don't know these people, never chatted or had any
contact with them and wouldn't have listened if I did.

JCT: Of course I didn't expect you to know the culprits who
did it on other lists. I only named them to assure you this
kind of stuff happens. So why do you have to know who they
are to appreciate what they did?

AA: I give everybody here lots of rope. They're free to pull
themselves up with it or hang themselves. That choice is
theirs. I do not, nor does my staff, participate in any way
with trans-group feuds. Many people here, should you
actually get to the point of dropping the chip on your
shoulder, will attest to that. Everybody gets a fresh start
here. If they screw up, they screw up.  It's on their own
heads.

JCT: You didn't give me much rope before you judged what you
had no background about incomprehensible.

> 2) moderators may not see the relevance that the inviting
> member did,

AA: I'm the one who invited you. Nobody else has the option.
I'm also the one who rejected your posts. As for the content
of said posts, if I read it and don't have clue one what
you're talking about, I reject it. Off topic is one thing.
Off planet is another.

JCT: I only talk about promotion of legal cannabis and the
abolition of interest, two important world-changing issues.
Why is discussion of either off planet? Just because you
can't stay with the crowd on this planet.

AA: As I'm the list OWNER, my staff has nothing to do with
this save asking me to read said posts.

> 2) the better ones as their members for guidance because

AA: I don't run a Democracy here. I am the final arbiter in
all such matters. I rejected your posts for a valid reason.
They were incomprehensible.

JCT: Because you can't see, no one else can see too?

AA: As for this one, it's flat out insulting. I don't
tolerate that either, I'm afraid.

JCT: Again, just because some don't have the education to
stay with me doesn't mean you should be censoring what your
brighter members can follow. I know it must be painful for
someone with an ego like you who thinks you're bright enough
to judge for everyone else to now find out that you're a few
watts short of a bulb when you run up against someone like
me with not only a superior education but also a superior
intellect. Your inability to stay with me sadly identifies
you as an inferior intellect. But is it fair to assume the
rest of your members are as uncomprehending as you?

> I've been invited to...

AA: Ok, obviously you've had this conversation for those
people as well.

JCT: That was the purpose of the post on censorship that you
censored, so you'd know the dangers.

AA: An intro is fine, however, and I'm going to go back to
my own archives and show you each post I rejected,
especially given that length doesn't seem to be a problem
here.

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:21:05 -0400
>From: Cleafloo@... ("Leafloor, Christopher")
>Subject: RE: Turmel: Factum emailled?
>To: TURMEL@...
>Cc: cmichael@... ("Michaelson, Croft"),

AA: Ok, the above was rejected because it appears to be an
email to someone named John and has no relevance to any of
the topics on this list.

JCT: Okay this was about the government creating efiles for
themselves and the courts but not for laymen like us suing
them. I let them know I wanted the legal system officially
changed. Of course, if you'd read any older archives or
waited for more developments in this case, you might have
grasped the relevance but with censorship, neither you nor
your readers will ever find out the link. But I'd guess
working to fix the legal system within the medpot fight
would be of no interest to you. But why do you assume it has
to be of no interest to everyone else on your list? The
government said that it was refusing to give the public
something that it could give the public and I've declared
that I, John C. Public, want it and I'm going to go after
it. What's so hard to understand? I think everyone will
benefit if I get it. And of course, when I do make my motion
to have it, you'll hear about it and you'll then know what's
at stake. But the people on your group whose info you
censored won't know.

>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:28:54 -0400
>From: rdpriest@... (Richard Priestman)
>Subject: a visit to Kingston
>To: TURMEL@... (John C Turmel)
>Cc: matovic@... (Darko Matovic)

AA: This was another personal email and I saw no reason to
approve it. Again, it had no relevance to my list and
appeared to be a personal email.

JCT: The title informs you that it is an announcement of a
speaking engagement for those of your members in that area
who might like to to come. Was that incomprehensible to you
too? Are invitations to talks not allowed?

AA: The rest appeared to be either interviews or court pleas
or whatever.

JCT: That's right. 1) You censored a debate between a medpot
advocate and two police officers. And of course, 2) the
fight to legalize medpot in the Quebec courts was also
censored. If The_Pagan_Way is not interest in social
reforms, it doesn't sound like a philosophy that can
survive.

AA: They were rejected because they had no relevance to any
topic currently being discussed.

JCT: I did not know we were not allowed to start new topics.
Why don't you announce that only topics you have already
raised will be open and warn us that trying to speak of
anything else on your list is verboten.

AA: You're into, had I recognized it at such, I would have
let through. However, having read the first two and then
getting that, I simply rejected it in hopes that you would
email me privately and explain the for the others.

JCT: Oh, censorship comes to you that casually, does it? I'm
not sure what the third one that should have gotten through
was but it does highlight how an itchy censor's finger can
make mistakes.

I hope you're not representative of your pagan religion. You
sure play fast and loose with freedom of speech. Oh that's
right, the speech has to he on what you say it's got to be
on. I always hoped pagans had better ethics. And you're the
owner! Wow.

Maybe what we heard about pagans throughout history is true.
Yet, "I just deleted you to make you come speak to me" is
the most original reason for censorship I've encountered.
And you're an Internet representative of the kind of
treatment we can receive from pagans. I think that attitude
brings your religion into disrepute.

AA: Look, here's the thing... My list is not for you to
promote your personal agenda.

JCT: Why not? Is it to promote yours? Whose? And it's my
public agenda. These are two very public issues you have
censored discussion of. Are you really saying that pagans
have no interest in the outcomes of my two issues?

AA: Had you read the invitation, or the group rules, you'd
know that.

JCT: So announce, This is not for your agenda, it's for
mine" in your group's home page now that you've come forward
so forcefully.

AA: I also don't need, want, or desire to know every list
your on, have been banned from, and whatever else was in the
20 pages I just deleted.

Now, if you an event going on that you want to advertise,
fine, one ad is acceptable. That's the sum of the tolerance
that I have here. At over 100 posts a day, I can't afford
any more than that. 90% of the people who leave, leave
because of volume. I am not adding to that for someone's
personal fight to use pot or whatever else you're fighting
for.

JCT: Oh, like all people are always making so many such
announcements that you'll be swamped? Be realistic. There
aren't too many other political engineers on the Internet
that I know of.

AA: I have no problem if you choose to post about things
that are on topic.

JCT: Yes, but if you don't see the relevance to the topic,
then it gets banned. And people don't get the background
with only some of the posts getting through. Half the show,
so to speak.

AA: I have no problem if you want to repost your
introduction, provided it's not inflammatory. What I do have
a problem with and, this is exactly WHY I moderate new
members, is people posting inflammatory statements because
they feel they've been wronged when, in fact, all I've done
is uphold the rules of this list.

JCT: No, I don't have time to repost things. If someone ever
asks, you can just explain to them what you didn't let
through. And it doesn't matter too much whether you censor
this too, your reasons are going to the other lists as an
example of the dangers of moderation out of control.

But sadly, if you're typical of the Pagan religion, no
thanks. If you don't see how fighting for God's Healthiest
Herb should be part of the Pagan religion, how fighting
against God's greatest bane, usury, the genocide of the poor
by removal of life-support tickets (money) should be part of
the Pagan religion, especially when the usury ban is part of
so many good ones like Bhuddism, Judaism, Christianity and
Islam, then your religion has no solutions and your attitude
demonstrates that you're not interested in new alternatives.
Ignorance is not knowing the truth and the stupidity to
wanting to stay that way.

AA: I neither know, nor care about any court battles
involving marijuana use, or what lists your on, or any of
the other people to discuss issues directly related to Pagan
lifestyle, our history, etc. We have quite a range of topics
and reading an email version of a court plea against the
Queen isn't part of that.

JCT: I didn't know the other pagans were not allowed to know
or care about any court battles involving marijuana use.
Sure, my posts on poverty and prohibition of the best
medicine marijuana, are not Pagan issues. Well, you just
keep censoring them so that any members who do go elsewhere
will know that you had to delete that post they read
elsewhere on Timedollars saving babies lives in El Paso
Texas. And they'll know you killed stories on the fight to
save their them and their children from the busts of
prohibition. They'll know every post you keep zapping.

AA:I barely allow cross posting, because of relevance.

JCT: I've heard the argument before. See the metatoes
moderator's line at the bottom that because it is highly
cross-posted, it must not be relevant to all the groups it
is cross-posted to. Ergo it must be spam. I don't agree. All
my groups are relevant in some way to a new debt-free
prohibition-free life-style under the new amalgamated
religion that's coming.

AA:We have too active a list to have people clutter up
bandwidth with such as what you've posted. If you want to
participate in this list, fine. Participate. If you want to
promote your personal agenda, whether I agree with it or
not, this is not the place for it.

JCT: Then tell us the agenda that you permit and explain why
medpot and usury aren't on the pagan agenda?

AA: My staff are incredibly tolerant with posts usually.

JCT: You haven't even allowed enough posts for anyone to
sense the beginning of the movie.

AA: More so than I am, to be frank. However, we will not,
nor do we have to, be insulted on our own groups.

JCT: This is my first post in response to your group. I've
never mentioned your group, yet. All those criticisms about
censorship you felt related to you were about other censors.
I did not mention the_pagan_way. But I'm glad you feel some
shame at what you've done to consider my criticisms an
"insult." You're not being insulted, you're being chastised
for playing fast and loose with your power.

AA: You are a guest here. You do not, nor does any member,
honour us with your presence. You also don't do us any
favors by simply being a member on my list. I have 1350+
people who understand this concept. You can either add one
to that number or leave the list.

JCT: You have members who accept that you control their
agenda? No other agendas allowed but yours? Where is that
advertised? Are you sure they know they can't serve their
own agendas here? Or have you just made that up for me?
Sadly, I don't obey your types that easily. I always make
you explain why the agenda you understand is the only one
allowed.

AA:Some people think that I'm required to tolerate abuse
just because I take time out of my schedule to run the lists
I run. They, and you, are. I don't need, want, or desire, to
take abuse and I will not have it on my list. PERIOD. You
have a complaint, you email me in private and we can discuss
it. You try to post it to get members to rally behind
whatever cause you happen to have, just or not, and I will
squash it.

JCT: Sorry, when you do shameful things, you have no
right to privacy. My only recourse is to publicize that the
Pagan Way is censorship by the owner who has mandated that
no one be able to discuss things you can't stay with. And it
pays off. See the later response from the
<parentsendingprohibition> moderator.

AA: My group is not a democracy and you were invited as a
courtesy. I thought, given your background, you could
contribute to this list. You have quite a list of
accomplishments and I applaud that. Being a poker player
myself, I'd almost like a chance to play you, actually. I'm
more known in Europe than here but I've won my share of pots
over the last 20 years or so.

JCT: And yet, you have taken the worst of courses and have
done shameful things that only asking for forgiveness can
erase. You'll never live this down, now that it's on the
net. Sticks and stones may break your bones but net words
sting forever.

AA: However, how you use what you have is entirely up to
you. You can use it to become respected or use it to become
just another idiot I banned because he has decided to test
my patience, resolve and see whether or not I am bluffing.
I assure you, sir, that I am not.

JCT: I don't care why you tell people you banned me. They'll
know it had to do with the issues of cannabis and usury not
being allowed. My two issues should be Pagan issues even if
you think not. I should be allowed to promote them as Pagan
issues even if you think not. You censored things that
should not have been and you deserve the shame you feel.

AA: Now, we're going to try this again.  If you want to
repost your intro, now that I know that's what it is and
participate in this list, fine.  No problem.  The condition
is that you participate in the discussions on the list or,
if you choose to start a topic, it not be a list of posts
that you've posted on all the other lists you belong to plus
your own   If these terms are unacceptable, then remove
yourself from the list and that's that. We have neither the
time nor inclination to keep rejecting posts because you
happen to be outraged at us for not approving posts that
have no relevance or no foundation in our group.

JCT: No, if you want your members to find out what they
didn't find out, just go to another list such as [turmel]
which has everything, pick it up and repost it yourself. You
erased it. You repost it. I only do it once.

AA: If you want to discuss your lawsuit, fine. Tell us what,
exactly, you're talking about first so we at least have a
reference.

JCT: Too bad you deleted the posts before you learned what
they were about. Especially when some members may have
understood before you did. Now your members can get all
future posts but will have to guess the background.

AA: We are an open forum as long as posts actually make
sense.

JCT: You don't have the right to demand that it make sense
to you. You can bet I won't send any advanced engineering
arguments.

AA: Yours didn't and so they were rejected. This one was
rejected because it was inflammatory and was intended to
rally support among our members.

JCT: Yes, my complaint about censorship was to rally support
among your members against your curtailment of free speech.
And you did not let it demonstrating the real danger of
censorship, that no one knows what's been cut, do they?

AA: Like I said, this is not a democracy.

JCT: Call it Pagan Democracy with a dash of censorship.

AA: One other thing, if you're going to respond to me or the
list with some nasty retort, save yourself the considerable
time and effort that you obviously spend on these and simply
remove yourself. I'll ban you immediately if you do. As I
said, neither I nor my staff has to take abuse and we don't.
I run  one of the largest Pagan lists in Yahoo.  I simply
don't need the grief.

JCT: I'll just send my criticisms and you decide what to
delete.

AA: This isn't a debate, BTW. This is simply a statement.
You have my terms and conditions. Either abide by them or
leave. Any action that's hostile will get you banned and I
hate doing that. It doesn't stop me but I do have a few
moments of regret.

JCT: Excuse me if I'm hostile to your censorship. Nothing I
can do about that. You'll just have to do what you think you
have to do. Of course, without letting any posts through
on what's going on.

AA: Rev. Sir Raymond E. Nieman DD HKOS

JCT: Rev? Where'd you learn your "do unto others...?"

AA: The Amber Adept
Owner - The Pagan Way and TPW Affiliated groups.
" Do not meddle in affairs of Dragons
for you are crunchy and good with ketchup"

JCT: What a sad ethos. You'll just have to do what you want
to do and then hide it from your members.
=====

JCT: I've already mentioned some censorship problems I've
had and here are some of the responses from some
moderators. See if their reasons sound right to you.

>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 03:26:55 +0000
>From: feetofclay@... (Snarky)
>Subject: Message not approved: TURMEL: #A CFRA MedPot
>To: TURMEL@...

S: This is a very important issue, I fully agree, but it is
off-topic in TPW. Even that could be permitted, but this is
lengthy, for a Yahoogroup that has already maxed out its
archive limit to the point where our moderators have to
delete selected posts and threads to keep more valuable
articles. This post would not be allowed to remain for more
than a day or two in any case...

JCT: Why don't you start The_Pagan_Way2 so you don't lose
your archives? It's an easy thing to switch.

S: Also, as I have already requested that you take the
medpot issue to either of the two groups which were created
for the express purpose of debating political and/or
controversial matters, I shall simply tell you, this time:
Take it to TPW_Politics or
The_Pagan_Way_Controversial_Topics_Forum (add -subscribe to
the usual Yahoo address, in order to join) -- and don't
worry, we won't delete any pending messages, as it is list
policy to only approve or reject them. TIA for your kind
cooperation. Sincerely, Rev. Clayton Edward McGill, ULC
Pope Snarky Goodfella of the undulating cable, JM, CK, POEE,
KOTHASK Moderator, TPW Psychic Gifts, TPW The Craft, The
Pagan Way Lite Elder, The Pagan Way Working Group, The Pagan
Way, The Pagan Way Controversial Topics Forum, TPW Politics,
TPW Pagan Dreams, TPW Debate, TPW Mods Forum

JCT: Didn't know there were other fora. I guess I'll have no
choice but to switch.

TOESECON: THE OTHER ECONOMIC SUMMIT
-------------------------------
http://yahoogroups.com/group/toesecon

>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 04:39:20 -0400 (EDT)
>From: TURMEL@...
>Subject: [turmel] Turmel: Submissions to toesecon list
>To: bwallace@... Cc: toesecon@yahoogroups.com

>>From: bwallace@... (bwallace_00720)
>>Hi John, Can you explain to me the relevance of the
messages submitted in your name to the topic of this list?
I'm afraid I don't get it. Regards,
Bob Wallace List Moderator

>JCT: I made my first presentation on LETS interest-free
community currencies to the 1997 Denver TOES, then the 1998
Birmingham TOES, then the 1999 Koln TOES, and after LETS was
adopted in the Millennium Declaration, a few TOESlist
democrats complained and my posts have been censored from
your group since then. Ask Trent Schroyer why he worked to
get my posts on the LETS anti-poverty system censored.
I also post on the second most important political issue
with respect to economics in the world today, legalizing
hemp bio-mass. Both the abolition of usury and the
legalisation of cannabis remain numbers 1 and 2 but those
posts have all been censored at toes.
Regardless, I keep sending my posts even though they are
being blocked by some moderators because they are relevant
and I want to be able to tell people someday when the LETS
anti-poverty system has saved the planet that those supposed
democrats for economic liberty censored every mention of the
two most important economic issues there are.
My posts are bang on topic for economics and I'm not going
to make the censor's responsibility any less. I want them to
have to hit the delete key every time to make sure you never
forget the evil I accuse you of doing.
I hope you agree they are relevant news.

JCT: So I think I explained to Bob how the two issues of
abolition of usury and prohibition on hemp are ECONOMIC.

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:28:35 +0000
>From: bwallace@... (Bob Wallace)
>Subject: Turmel, etc.
>To: metatoes@...

BW: I've been remiss. I discovered a few days ago that John
Turmel subscribes to 100 or so lists, to all of which he
posts the same messages. That does not fly here. When his
messages are blocked, he believes he is being censored.

JCT: Until he found out others have requested my feed, it
was okay. But now it doesn't fly here! What changed?

BW: That is true in the sense that only messages relevant to
the theme of this list may be posted here. This list is for
feedback about T.O.E.S., its mailing lists, <toeslist>,
<toesecon> and <metatoes>, as well as (why not?) its web
sites, www.ee.upenn.edu/~rabii/toes/ and www.toes-
usa.org/home.html
John, you may submit messages a relative to these subjects
and I may or may not let them be posted, depending on how
much of your bs I'm willing to deal with.

JCT: Remember, I've already explained how the only two
issues I write about to his group are economic and yet he
says relevance is not enough. And he knows I've been banned
form the toeslist group. I wonder which he'll censor first.

Finally, you'll remember I complained about being banned
from:

PARENTS ENDING PROHIBITION
http://yahoogroups.com/group/parentsendingprohibition
-----------------------------------------------------

>Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 06:44:03 -0700 (PDT)
>From: hbmama1999@... (Erin)
>Subject: Hello again, Mr. Turmel
>To: parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
>Cc: rlake@..., TURMEL@...

E: I cannot even begin to say how much I hate being in any
way involved in this battle! As the folks on my list know,
the statement made by Mr. Turmel, "consider that the
moderator of parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
silenced me without telling his members what he did and now
they're missing it." is not entirely true.

On March 13, Richard Lake posted this to the PEP list,
"Oh, and finally, no need to worry about wearing out your
delete key! John Turmel is history on this list. If you
really like to read his stuff, sign up for his discussion
list, a yahoogroups list called medpot-discuss."

Basically, Richard approached me and offered to help with
PEP. I gratefully accepted, and turned over control of the
list to him. At the same time, I had written Mr. Turmel,
asking that he not post attacks on other reformers to my
list, but before he did so again, Richard banned him.

I was not comfortable with this, but Richard explained that
once the list is moved to the DrugSense servers, it would be
impossible for Mr. Turmel to post, anyway, as he's banned
from their servers. Over what was to be a few posts, I
wasn't about to argue.

Buuuut, between Richard getting overloaded with other
projects, and my own ill health, combined with trying to
help get the med mj bill passed here, the list has not yet
moved. So, I will ask Richard to please remove the ban on
Mr. Turmel, until the list is moved.

Personally, I have no objection to Mr. Turmel's posts,
except when he's on the attack again. But I can also see
Richard's point of view. Many people have small limits on
the kb in their inboxes, and Mr. Turmel's posts can be
lengthy and sometimes off-topic. Still, I believe he
deserves another chance to keep his posts civil and on
topic.  I saw no reason to ban him at that particular
moment.

I have limited time, energy, and other resources.  Not only
am I raising and homeschooling five kids, I also have a
disease that knocks me on my butt fairly regularly.  My
efforts are, by necessity, small. While I'm interested in
what's happening elsewhere, I have to focus my energies on
helping other parents educate themselves about better ways
to keep their kids from problems associated with drug abuse.
Though I appreciate the efforts of Mr. Turmel to fight for
appropriate pain relief for children, and I support this,
it's beyond the scope of what I can invest myself in at this
moment.

All that said, I'll say once again.... I DON"T WANT TO BE
INVOLVED IN YOUR PERSONAL WAR!!!

You both have valid points, and you both tend to wander off
in obsessive states where your arguments become comical.
Outside of the entertainment value when PEP and I aren't
involved, I DON'T CARE!!!

JCT: Yes, but Richard Lake's purpose is to censor me. Mine
is not to censor him. I love making him back down from me.

E: Mr. Turmel, I will not personally censor you; however,
once the PEP list is moved, it will be out of my hands. I
will provide a link to your site from the PEP"Links" page,
though. Bottom line... I need all the help I can get to get
my org off the ground. Richard offered this help, and you
did not.

JCT: He offered his help in exchange for censorship over me
and banned me.

E: If you have any further questions or concerns, please
feel free to contact me, personally at hbmama1999@...
Erin, list-owner of Parents Ending Prohibition

JCT: So Craftybitch Cher got caught joining a list to
complain and now Richard Lake is caught taking over
moderation to ban me. As I explained, this Amerikan narc
mole has been harassing me to moderators for over a year.
With some, though not much, success. But I'm thankful that
this helps convince people that Richard Lake and his kennel
of bitches do the dirty deeds.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT:
WHO: John Turmel:
WHAT: Talk on UNILETS timecurrency
WHERE: 99 York Street Community Centre,Kingston
WHEN: Sunday May 11 from 1:30 to 4:00pm
WHY: Heaven is all payments knocking off debt principle

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 21:16:09 -0400
>From: rdpriest@... (Richard Priestman)
>Subject: Re: Turmel: Visit to Kingston
>To: TURMEL@... (John C Turmel)
>Cc: hcjenney@... (Hugh&Claire Jenney),
>matovic@... (Darko Matovic)

RP: 4/5/03 Hello John:
Very glad you could accept our invitation, and very
interesting that you made your first presentation on Global
LETS to the COMER conference back in 1985 at U of Waterloo.
Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that - what the
group was like, who was there, etc.

JCT: First, I'll mention that COMER stands for Committee on
Monetary and Economic Reform and was founded by Economics
Prof. John Hotson from Waterloo University. Surely, the
agenda must be in archives. There were quite a few people.
Tom Kennedy, Margaret Thoren, Prof. Blaine, a few other now
well-known monetary reform activists.

RP: Was that the first COMER conference?

JCT: I think there had been previous meetings. I don't
remember it being advertised as the first or founding
meeting.

RP: I tried to find your 1993 interview with Hotson, but the
"page was not available".

JCT: Too bad about the interview. It used to be run out of
the Vancouver LETS site. Hotson was the first Economics
Professor to ever give my interest-free banking model a fair
hearing.

RP: If you are agreeable I'll ask Darko if he could tape
your talk.

JCT: Please do. They made CDs for sale in  England and in
France. Be my guest. I videotape for my archives too.

RP: I learned that your bus will leave Ottawa at 10:45,
arriving 1:15 at Kingston bus station where I will meet you.

JCT: Fine.

RP: Our meeting starts at 1:30, we do a little housekeeping,
start the talk and discussion by 2:00 and finish around 3:30
when we break for coffee. Those who are available can go
with us for a bite to eat and then we'll return to the
terminal about 10 after 6.

JCT: Or later. I've got a month to return.

RP: The return ticket is $51.36 + GST if you buy it before
Sunday; about $25 more if you wait until Sunday morning. Our
treasurer, Hugh, hopes you will get your ticket before
Sunday.

JCT: Just went out and got it tonight. Besides, you might
need the $25 for more donuts since I'm relaying this to my
distribution list.

RP: I have attached some information about using the BoC to
finance municipal capital projects which may interest you.
Richard

JCT: Great. And provincial and federal. With citizens
allowed to have Bank of Canada interest-free accounts too.
Actually, if UNILETS gets installed first, no one will need
the national, provincial or lesser local accounts anymore.
Why get an account for only some people when you can have
an account that works for all?

And I'm definitely going to take some time to explain how
the prohibition of cannabis is another way of keeping the
debt slaves sick and hooked on expensive pharmaceuticals.
It's all in the same package of my revolution.

So:
See you Sunday. And I'd advise you guarantee first seating
to those who book them before opening up remaining seating
to the walk-ins.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 23:46:02 -0700 (US MST)
>From: "P. Dalton" <pdalton@...>
>Subject: Who Is Maitreya?

PD: WHO IS MAITREYA?
He has been expected for generations by all of the major
religions. Christians know Him as the Christ, and expect His
imminent return. Jews await Him as the Messiah; Hindus look
for the coming of Krishna; Buddhists expect Him as Maitreya
Buddha; and Muslims anticipate the Imam Mahdi or Messiah.

JCT: ?Why'd he have to wait until we had nuclear weapons and
on the very of ecological catastrophe. Surely there are some
civilizations on some planets somewhere where He doesn't cut
it so close.

PD: The names may be different, but many believe they all
refer to the same individual: the World Teacher, whose name
is Maitreya (My-'tray-ah). Preferring to be known simply as
the Teacher, Maitreya has not come as a religious leader, or
to found a new religion, but as a teacher and guide for
people of every religion and those of no religion.

JCT: He'd better be good in Economics and have his math
right. We can now check.

PD: At this time of great political, economic and social
crisis Maitreya will inspire humanity to see itself as one
family, and create a civilization based on sharing, economic
and social justice, and global cooperation.

JCT: What kind of a token system is the Maitreya going to
using? Will he allow loansharking like today?

PD: He will launch a call to action to save the millions of
people who starve to death every year in a world of plenty.

JCT: Oh yeah. The Owners' Media is going to give Him a
platform to call the millions who starve to death of poverty
in a world of abundance. ?And besides, what do you think the
starving can do to fix their situation? It's going to take
an interest-free credit card for the starving to get eating,
let alone reforming or revolting.

PD: Among Maitreya's recommendations will be a shift in
social priorities so that adequate food, housing, clothing,
education, and medical care become universal rights.

JCT: And when the economists as how he's going to pay for
it, will he be like very do-gooder who wants do right who
gets stumped by the "not-enough-funding" response from the
banks?

PD: Under Maitreya's inspiration, humanity itself will make
the required changes and create a saner and more just world
for all. http://www.aznewage.com/ascendedmasters.htm

JCT: So far, no one's identified the source of the insanity.
The instability.

PD: THE VIOLET CONSUMING FLAME.
Every human being uses energy and substance waking and
sleeping. Everyone is creating vibration and form through
the individual consciousness every instant. The Law of
energy acts whether the individual be ignorant or wise and
no one ever escapes.
The conscious use of the Violet Consuming Flame is the only
means Life has provided by which any human being can free
himself (or herself) from his own discord and imperfection.
This means to call to the "Mighty I AM Presence" to produce
the Violet Flame. and then visualize and feel the Flame
passing through the body and around it. This is the way the
individual becomes free from the limitations and in harmony
of Earth thus becomes the Ascended Master.

JCT: Tell the hungry Third-Worlder with a sick child that he
should concentrate on the above? I think he's preoccupied
with more worldly and less lofty pursuits.

PD: The Great Eternal Law is that every individual must
purify his (her) own creation by daily use of the Violet
Consuming Flame. It is not possible for anyone else to do it
for him. Since he created his imperfections, so must he
uncreate and purify them, until all in his being and world
manifests Perfection. Then he is free.

JCT: And I thought being free was when Christ's Lord's
Prayer is answered in the positive.

"Give us this day tomorrow's bread and forgive us our debts
as we forgive our debtors." Going by a church, I saw a
"Jesus died to save the sinners" and I'm sure it should
actually be "Jesus died to save the debtors." After all,
what delivers Heaven on Earth, forgiveness of sins or
forgiveness of debts? In Heaven, sins. On Earth, there's no
discussion.

PD: Seventeen hundred years ago, key elements of our most
sacred heritage were taken from the texts that define our
history. In 325 AD, the Emperor Constantine put together the
Council of Nicea. Essentially, he gathered together the
historical and religious texts of his time and told the
council that because so many of the texts were redundant,
many confusing and some so mystical they weren't understood
they were to come up with a condensed version.

JCT: True. It took the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Scrolls
in 1948 to find out from the Gospel of St. Thomas, 95, that
Christ has said "If you have money, do not lend it out at
interest. Better you should give it to someone who can't pay
you back." Now realize that this came to light centuries
after Mohammed had said the same thing. Any bets that the
denunciation of interest on money was one of the things that
they cut?

PD: Twenty-five biblical texts were thus taken out of our
references during that time an additional 20 supporting
documents, such as the book of the Secrets of Enoch, were
also removed.

JCT: I'd also point out the integrity of Thomas is backed up
by his using the New Testament definition of interest: "To
those who have abundance will more be given and from those
who have no abundance, even what they have will be taken
away." Thomas is one Gospel no one's tampered with and I'd
bet big on its integrity.

PD: The books that were left were rearranged and condensed,
and that's what we're working with today. I am constantly in
awe of how well we have done in our societies, family
relationships, and science and technology without really
knowing who we are, where we came from, why we're here and
what we can expect to happen. The indications of this are
that, at best, we were working with an incomplete
understanding of the forces of our world and our
relationship to those forces. The pieces that were taken out
were the ancient sciences of compassion, the highly-
sophisticated technology that we call prayer, and the role
of emotion and feeling in our bodies. Those were the texts
that were removed and those are the pieces that will now
complete the wisdom that we're developing in the West today.

JCT: Well, deleting Thomas 95 certainly deleted the key to
Heaven on Earth. But tampering with the Bible is still going
on today. It was just in the past century that they changed
the Lord's Prayer Christ suggested from the plea to the
Father for forgiveness of our debts to a false plea for the
forgiveness of our sins.

The point is that in Ezekiel 18:8:

EZEKIEL
Ezekiel in 22, verse 25's the test:
"If you lend money to the needy, charge no interest."

Ezekiel 3:18 adds responsibility,
God states his laws for life with his expected certainty:
"And when I tell the wicked man that "You will surely die,"
You will be held accountable if you don't warn the guy?
But if you speak up and he doesn't change his wicked way,
You will have saved yourself and he will be the one to pay."

In 18:5: "Suppose a man takes not much interest,
He takes no usury. He'll live! His actions I have blessed.
Suppose he has a son who takes excessive interest,
And lends at usury. He'll die! His actions I detest.
But if this son too has a son who doesn't do the same,
He does not take the pledge for loans, his greed he overcame.
He takes no usury nor interest that is too high,
He will not die for his father's sin, the soul that sins will die.
But if a wicked man turns from the sins he did commit,
He gives back what he took in pledge. His sins I will acquit.
Forgotten will be his offences when I come to judge,
Because of good things he does now, I will not hold a grudge.
But if a righteous man turns from my law to evil way,
None of his righteous deeds will count. He'll die! I do inveigh.
So cleanse yourselves of all your sins and cease to be such fools,
I take no pleasure in the death of men who break my rules."
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombible.htm

JCT: See the point. Confess, be forgiven once, and all your
sins will be forgotten. So wy would JC suggest we keep
praying for the forgiveness of sins we're guaranteed if we
go straight?

So if God can say he won't hold a grudge, who can object to
global amnesty even for bankers?

If some Great Teacher comes up to me and says he's the
Maitreya, I'll give him a little test:

1) If everybody borrows the Principle(P) => 10
2) And everybody owes the Principal(P) + Interest(I) => 11
3) So that P/(P+I) survive
4) And I/(P+I) fail and are foreclosed upon to lose their
pledged collateral,
5) At what I=? would forced Unemployment and inflation by
seizure of pledged collateral be zero?
Hint: Nehemiah 5:10

NEHEMIAH ABOLISHES INTEREST
In Nehemiah 5 we hear complaints by needy men,
Of the conditions that existed in the nation then.
Some said "We've had to mortgage all our vineyards and our fields,
To get grain during famine though they've had abundant yields."
Some others said "We've had to borrow money for the King,
Whose taxes on our fields and vineyards leave us not a thing."
Still others said "Their flesh and blood is of our family tree,
Yet our children suffer under yoke of slavery."
When Nehemiah heard them, anger great he could not mask,
The nobles and the rulers were the ones he took to task.
He called a great assembly where he chose to lay the blame,
On bankers, judges, politicians who had run the game:
"You are exacting usury of your own countrymen,
Unlike my men who freely lend to needy brethren.
What you are doing is not right, you must do as we do.
So "Stop exacting interest!" It is the Big Taboo.
Return their fields and vineyards and their houses and their grain,
And also all the usury, the whole illicit gain."
The nobles and the rulers said: "They will not have to pay.
We'll give them back all their possessions. We'll do what you say."
Prosperity resulted from his ban on interest,
"Remember me, O God, with favor" was his last request.
Watch out for many Bibles where the most important phrase,
Has been deleted from the text, the problem not to faze.
The message Nehemiah states is "Stop the interest,
And give them back what you have seized and it'll turn out best."
The newer versions of the Bible simply state "Atone,
And give them back their stuff." No talk of interest on loan.
Who chose to cut the answer out? Who played this evil role?
We know the ones who own the publishers have sole control.

Except that the very latest editions of the Bible have
deleted Nehemiah 5:10 from the bible so you'll need a Bible
at least 20 years old to get the uncensored answer.

So if he gets the right answer, does The Maitreya support
The Engineer's Resolution C6 to Governments in the U.N.
Millennium Declaration to restructure the global financial
architecture with a UNILETS interest-free alternative time-
based currency?

And he'd better know about cannabis and urine therapy.

And he better not object to my gambling at cards.

And he'd better not object to my chasing many women.

If he gets the correct answers to the same Heaven on Earth
world I'm engineering for myself, and others, then, even
I'll kneel to obey his Lordship's wisdom.

But if he's a mathematical klutz who is fooled by the usury
that Christ said makes them "forever hearing without hearing
and seeing without seeing or understsanding," then I won't.

If he thinks God somehow limits what we do with our free
time when we aren't hurting anyone, then he's not
worshipping the same God that I worship. The God of what can
be engineered. I see the Heaven on Earth I want as
realistic, mainly by first fixing the money system and
everything else follows economic security. No more
involuntary foreclosures. New financial rules under a new
UNILETS global financial architecture engineered by me or
anyone else near the bank's central computer. handy with a
disk-drive and the LETS upgraded banking software.

And keep in mind too, I, or my LETS interest-free banking
software, was the only person who attended all four
Millennium Assembly events, the Millennium Forum of 1350
Non-Governmental Organizations (including my Abolitionist
Party of Canada) that adopted Resolution C6 for interest-
free time-based currency, the Millennium Summit of Religious
leaders which I first tried to crash and then picketed their
buses between the Waldorf Astoria and the UN in an
unavoidably obvious way, then got a mention as the "lone
activist" protesting outside the Millennium Summit of 180
political leaders, the biggest such meeting in the world.
And the whole globalization movement took a break after
Seattle, the Philadelphia and Los Angeles conventions to
allow me to do a solo performance for the biggest
congregation of world leaders ever held. I was honored.
Might be another Guinness World Record. After demos of
hundred thousand, they all sit back and give me the UN
Millenium Political Summit, I grabbed shots at the Religious
Summit and the Forum, and finally, Darrell Vanslack heard a
presentation in Barry Ontario and had been invited to addres
the Student Millennium Forum for Canada and got the
Interest-Free UNILETS time-based adopted in their Students'
Declaration too.

But back to this religious Maitreya. I know that all the
saints of Bhuddism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam concur
on the abolition of interest on debts. We now have the
computer technology to see that common dream of debt
liberation realized. The new UNILETS software's ready and
the old ATMs are working fine. Your interest-free credit
line into Heaven on Earth awaits.

So the Forum of poor people groups and the Forum of students
endorsed the LETS interest-free timecurrency and the Summits
of Religious and Political leaders failed too. But that's a
whole intrigue in itself found at my homepage. And I'd bet
that when I go back to the UN to reconvene the Millennium
Assembly to undelete the words "UNILETS interest-free" from
Section 6, as I had written it, I'll make sure to ask that
an amendment be added to abolish the prohibition on
cannabis too. Sorry I was so busy fighting for abolition of
usury in 2000, I plumb forgot to fight for the abolition of
prohibition of Laughing Grass.

Let's hope there's something to his Teachings. But I
remember hearing about this guy a while back and he never
struck me as being up on how to engineer the end to poverty
without which Heaven on Earth cannot be. And poverty is
caused by asking for more than they printed and loaned out.
Interest. Any preachers who don't key on the root of all
evil, the yoke of oppression, the love of money, usury, ten
they're not aiming at the goal of ending debt slavery on
Earth. And we must ask what they are in it for if they don't
have the key to the Lord's Prayer.
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombible.htm
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombank.htm
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pomlizas.htm
and http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

So, learned correspondents, check this guy out and report
back if he's offering the same kind of Heaven on Earth I am
in the battle to engineer?

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 03:28:07 -0700
>From: kegan23@... (Kegan)
>Subject: Solo protest at Million march
>To: CanadianMedicalMarijaunaAssociation@...

Well, Christine and I were there. We got there about 11:45,
didn't see any signs or anything, didn't know what was
expected.

Christine smoked a joint in front of the flame (and
civilians) and we got her on videotape. She just got her
MMAR on May 1. So we represented too.

Last year we were there and it changed our lives. next year
we plan on helping with posters and just.... make sure that
it goes off big next year, we hope....

Sorry we never crossed paths. I was hoping to meet the
legendary John Turmel, and sell him a copy of our charity
book (the world's first children's book about medical
Marijuana, incidently) called Mommy's Funny Medicine.

Christine, and Mike Foster and I will be on CKCU in Ottawa
on May 7 to talk about the book, and the compassion
situation in Ottawa.

Copies of the book can be purchased at Crosstown Traffic for
$10 a copy. To receive orders by mail, send your address and
a money order for $10 US, or
$10CND+$3.50 shipping/handling (per copy) to:
                 Crosstown Traffic
                 593-C bank Street
                 Ottawa, ON
                 K1S 3T4

Proceeds of $5 per copy will be used to help establish a
location for The Capital Compassion Society, so that the
medical Cannabis users of the Ottawa area can have a clean,
reliable source of cannabis, and a safe environment in which
to acquire their medicine.

The authors can be contacted for interviews at 613-761-6504,
or kegan23@...

Marijauna prohibition is indefensible and inherently
illegitimate. It is in the same category as slavery

I wrote back:

Jct: Funny. I was there at High Noon with a big
Abolish Medpot Prohibition sign. Standing right at
Parliament's front door.

>Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 10:50:47 -0400
>From: kegan23@... (Kegan)
>Subject: RE: Solo protest at Million march
>To: TURMEL@...

Ah, see I had my wheelchair, and I would have had to go all
the way around, so I just peered around looking for a sign
or something... didn't see you. My bad.
The spirit was there tho, so it's cool...

JCT: It was a nice sunny day. Are you sure you didn't see a
guy with a white hard-hat in a suit with a picket sign. I
always thought I stood out like a sore thumb.

I actually started my march down in the Market area, then up
Wellington Street in front of the Chateau Laurier up to
Parliament Hill. I kept quipping: Save the kids from Prozac
and Ritalin, give them a marijuana muffin. The reaction from
most people was stunned or positive.

I spent some minutes at the Centennial flame, and then
ambled up to Parliament's front steps to show my sign for a
while until the High Noon carillon played. After a while, I
moseyed back the way I came and was glad I had the chance to
do some part.

Look, if the anti-bank globalization protest movement could
take a break so I could be the "lone activist" picketing the
Millennium Summit, I didn't mind thinking I standing there
right smack dab center of Parliament Hill all alone, even if
it was just yards away from where I'd been on Canada's
Centennial birthday, 1967, as part of Her Majesty Queen
Elizabeth II's Cameron Highlander Honor Guard.

Yeah, I wore a kilt. Who wants to make something of it?

Anyway, no kilt this time, just a grey-haired guy in a suit
protesting for pot, grousing for ganja, rebellious for
reefer, and in love with MaryJane.

Especially when I tell them how it would help their kids.

Which really infuriated the police officers on the CFRA
show. They need laws with meaningful consequences for guys
like me who'd countenance giving marijuana to kids. Their
kids are the generation exposed to Ritalin and Prozac and
they're worried about about exposing them to Heavenly Herb?
Laughing Grass?

If you were one of these kids, would you thank those parents
who kept you away from cannabis and on pharmaceuticals? I've
heard of kids who cry when forced to take their Ritalin.
And they have a right to hate those deadening drugs. I was
prescribed Prozac when I was a kid but mom was shocked by
the knock-out stone and stopped that. I'd have preferred a
mild marijuana muffin.

And I'd bet that if kids were permitted to make an informed
decision, they'd pick the herb. That's the police kept
insisting that conflicting messages to the kids had to stop.
Which means my message to the kids had to be stopped.

Calming the wildest kids with a full marijuana muffin has to
be the better way to go. Usually, he goes to school with a
half muffin under his belt but this morning, he kicked
little Suzy and kicked the cat down the stairs before
breakfast so maybe he needs a full muffin today.

These poor officers evinced complete shock at the thought
that once it's legal, pushers will invade the school-yard
with extra high-powered muffins. Actually, the problem is
that they visualise the same kind of pusher situation. Not
so. When it's legal, mommy will dose out the medpot muffins
as meticulously as aspirin or vitamin C. Sure, kids might
trade muffins if particular strains make them feel more
attentive or less, but the trafficking of a substance that
mom's doling out at home just won't arise. It's too silly to
actually countenance once legalization is fact.

But it's always a rush to be out there promoting a cause
close to my heart. Unfortunately, the unsafe engineering
design of the Health Canada pharmacy causes only a fraction
of the genocide that the unsafe engineering design of the
usury-based money-slavery system causes. I can't wait to get
focused back on the biggest killer on the planet, the killer
software in the banks' killer computers which can be
upgraded with the LETS software to deliver world free of
growing debts.

And that ain't Hell no more.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

JCT: I have a recurring problem. People invited me to post
to other groups they belong to, I suppose hoping to promote
discussion with their friends there, and the question of
silencing me inevitable comes up for several reasons:

1) Richard Lake, CraftyBitch and their his gang of saboteurs
may have joined the group to complain to the moderators
hoping they'll fall for it an become their censors; many do.

2) moderators may not see the relevance that the inviting
member did, (perhaps people should ask their controller's
permission before inviting anyone else to join from now on)
and the moderators start censoring it as spam except that
news, by its nature, cannot be spam but as long as they
don't see relevance, then they decide for the group by their
refusal to allow the post.

So it's inevitable that censorship happens in two forms:

1) the weaker moderators just start deleting the posts
without telling their members what they did and then delete
the complaints so that their members don't find out either;

2) the better ones as their members for guidance because
they know they're treading on dangerous ground.
Unfortunately, it's the nice ethical ones who end up being
the recipients of my objections while the lesser ones escape
by suppressing all further input to the group.

I've been invited to:

Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 06:01:52 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the peoplewhocomplainalot group

Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 06:23:48 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the politicalevents group

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:52:35 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the The_Pagan_Way group

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:31:12 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the toesecon group

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:31:12 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the toesecon group

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:23:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Invitation to join the rrnd group

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:37:20 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the Isis-House group

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:26:43 +0000
Subject: Invitation to join the USDemocrat2 group

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:19:27 -0400
Subject: John you are invited to join our celebration
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Debate_and_More/

JCT: I send out a standard introduction:

TURMEL: Intro to "The Engineer"

I'm in the Guinness Book of Records for running in
the most elections contested.
In the Great Canadian Character Anthology
Wrote Resolution C6 of the U.N. Millennium Declaration
Make my living as a Professional Poker Player known as
the TajProfessor for the 5 years I was at the Tah Mahal
in Atlantic City.

I write about my political battles to:
abolish gambling prohibition
abolish drug prohibition
abolish sex prohibition
abolish interest via service charge UNILETS banking system.

In 1993, I founded the anti-debt-slavery Abolitionist
Party of Canada which got me an invite to the Millennium
Assembly where my UNILETS interest-free time-based currency
resolution C6 to governments was adopted.

I preface messages with TURMEL to make my posts easy to
catch or duck.

USENET groups can.politics, alt.fan.john-turmel get all my
posts on all topics. http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel
does too.

I also post everything to the turmel@yahoogroups.com which
can be joined with a blank email sent to:
turmel-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Archives: http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/messages
Stay tuned

JCT: And then I add them to either pro-medpot or anti-
usury or both "groups" distribution lists for news of my
political, legal and economic anti-genocide battles with as
many funny punch lines as I can. How else to but with humour
to talk about poverty, dying people denied the best
medicine and Bush League wars.

What's interesting is that I sometimes find myself quietly
censored on lists that I've been posting to for a long time.
Some examples:

MEDPOT lists that no longer accept my medpot battles:
<marijuana@...>
<hempsa-news@yahoogroups.com>
<conservativesformarijuanalegalization@yahoogroups.com>
<forgodandcountry@yahoogroups.com>
<bitchpissandmoan@yahoogroups.com>
<freehempinak@yahoogroups.com>
<smartgroup2@yahoogroups.com>
<parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com>

Imagine, Richard Lake and his kennel crew got
"parentsendingprohibition" to ban my posts and I'm the only
politician that I know of arguing kids have a right to the
best relief sedation too. Listen in to my 2-hours on CFRA at
http://www.cfra.com tonight at 5pm to hear what you've
probably never heard argued before and then consider that
the moderator of parentsendingprohibition@yahoogroups.com
silenced me without telling his members what he did and
now they're missing it. Of course, that's the whole purpose
of Richard and his crew of complainers and it often works.
Especially when moderators censor and then are so ashamed
they have to continue to censor the discussion of their
censorship.

MONEY REFORM lists that no longer accept my pro-LETS anti-
usury posts:

econ-lets@somewhere in the UK
ekonomi-syariah@yahoogroups.com,
islamic_banking@yahoogroups.com,

What's sad are the two Islamic Banking groups. I have
challenged that the LETS is a better Islamic banking model
than the Islamic banking model they are using, pointing out
that the Islamic Party of Great Britain has endorsed LETS as
the best form of interest-free Islamic banking. So what do
they do? Delve further into the better model? No, censor the
competition away. Just like top anti-globalization groups
are peopled by Judases to their movements, it looks that
the same kind of moles are in the Islamic Banking movement
too. People not interested in the best for their group.

And now on to my responses to the moderators who contacted
me about their problems:

<<TURMEL: Please... Why?

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:51:54 -0400 (EDT)
>From: LillianOwl@...
>Subject: Please....
>To: TURMEL@...

L: Hon, please... I have requested on the list that you post
these legal things in the files area, and then just
summarize or inform us on the list that you have posted the
file.

JCT: Why? Other than making me create a second document
announcing the first, and making me go to the files area to
specifically upload the first rather than just add your
messages address to my mailing list, which would make the
work-load too steep and I'd drop your group, how is having
my posts in the file section instead of the messages section
in any way an impediment to you and your readers?

L: Please don't post these to the main list anymore. I'm not
opposed to efforts to legalize medical use of marijuana --
in fact, I'm all for it! It's just kind of off-topic for the
list, and I would really appreciate it if you would put it
in the FILES section instead of the main list. BB,
LilCo-owner and Moderator Isis-House

JCT: Say the word that it's important that I do the extra
work because you have some kind of advantage in having my
posts in files rather than messages and I'll drop you from
my list with no problem. But please lets those of your
readers who were interested in what they've heard so far
from the only Guinness Record holder on your list that
they'll have to look elsewhere from my legal stuff.

But once you've been dropped from my list, I do bet you'll
miss out on my other angles yet. Had I only had the chance
to start perhaps with my Biblical poetic exegesis bringing
Bhuddism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam together, maybe
their goodness would have been a link to Isis-House. I'm
sorry that my concentration on medpot at this moment made me
appear a one-facet writer so you never had a taste of other
ideas that would have permitted you to tolerate more readily
my current dutiful devotion to medpot posts.  It's not that
I prefer writing about legal medpot battles when I could be
writing about the Heaven on Earth that's being engineered.
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/pombible.htm

Look. I typed up 61 pages of a government Factum for the
information of your readers. And you also want me to write
up a special intro and make a special trip to your group to
file it? What if I had to that for all my groups? Sorry.
Can't be done.

But I see don't see the harm in my posts being complete
within the messages section as compared to being filed over
in files. Readers see the same titles in Message whether
there's the full messages attached or not. How does putting
it in files help you?

Censor me and you lose me, it's as simple as that.
And that's what it is if you do it without informing your
readers. So please, let them know the Turmel show's moving
and you'll get no more static out of me.
>>

>  From: LillianOwl@...
>  To: Isis-House@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 11:48 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Isis-House] TURMEL: Please... Why?

LO: I don't understand your hostility. I truly don't.

JCT: I am probably the most censored politician in the
world. They even had to tamper with resolution C6 to
governments in the UN Millennium Declaration. So it's tough
not to react vehemently when the end result will be
discontinuation of my input.

LO: I've been nothing but polite to you, and I'm not trying
to censor you, as I've already stated. As co-moderator / co-
owner, I'm just making reasonable requests in the hope of
saving bandwidth on the list.

JCT: I know and I do appreciate that you're not one of the
baddies. A member wrote that he felt that my max 30k posts
took up too much of his mailbox though even free Yahoo
mailboxes hold 4,000k. I just could not empathize with his
concern over 1/133rd of his space and the damage to his
digit by having to delete one or two posts a day. And
considering the megabyte media files that get moved around,
my little 30k contributions are a negligible incursion on
bandwidth.

LO: We ran out of room on other lists; I don't want to see
all the posting room eaten up. Your posts are extremely
long.

JCT: They are never more than 10 pages. What? No think
pieces allowed? Only chit-chat? And it is news, never
repetition.

LO: To me, your posts are unintelligible because I'm not a
lawyer. They make very little sense to me, and they seem off-
topic.

JCT: And yet lots of non-lawyers love reading novels or
watching shows on TV about fictional law so here'sa chance
to read actual law going on. Surely the person who invited
me here is reading it and hoping to promote discussions
about it within this group. Why else would they invite me
but that they are looking for this topic?

LO: I think it's more than generous to offer you space in
the files section for these off-topic documents;
incidentally, the files section is not an unlimited space
either, as Will and I have found out to our great discomfort
in the past.

JCT: If I did that, then why post it in your files anyway?
Why not just mention that the article is at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/turmel/message/xxx instead of
http://yahoogroups.com/group/isis-house/files/message/xxx

The whole purpose it to get to your members' mailbox so they
don't have to go looking. If they're not interested, a
single digit delete and it's gone.

LO: This is not a political list. To my knowledge, it's not
populated with lawyers. It's a metaphysical list. As far as
people on this list craving your info, as far as I know, I
have been the only one to respond to them at all, at least
on-list.

JCT: Surely your understanding of the metaphysical world
will work better if your understanding of the real world is
right. And I'd bet the good souls in the Gaia are all
rooting for The Engineer to abolish the root of poverty so
their progeny don't have to go through the same debt slavery
most of them did. Very few "masters" who collected in with
the "slaves who paid" in Heaven.

LO: Extra work??? What extra work? I post things to the
files section all the time.

JCT: I publish to almost 100 lists with 1 press of the
"send" button. Would you have me visit each one to upload a
file and then publish a notice to those 100 lists? That's
what I mean by so much work if I could not just add your
group to my distribution list that I would have to drop
you.

LO: It's simply a matter of cut and paste. In fact, within
the functions of the files section, you have an automatic
option of having the list notified of the placement of the
new file, without any further effort from you.

JCT: It's still a hundred cuts and pastes.

LO: I was actually hoping that if you summarized your work,
I might understand it, and maybe other people here would,
too. So much for your theory that I am "censoring" you.

JCT: I'm pleased to note that you have no stopped any of my
later posts which is also why I don't mind taking the time
to answer our objections.

LO: I think this issue is extremely important. Which is why
I am willing to meet you halfway. But if you are unwilling
to work with the people who own and run this list, then by
all means, you are free to unsubscribe. Which means that
essentially you are censoring yourself, when you have been
offered an otherwise perfectly good forum.

JCT: Okay, so I'm asking to be treated a little special
since my stuff happens to be a little special. I hope you
can appreciate that I'm not forcing you to it my way because
I'm a boor but just that I really do not have the time to
do it your way, no matter how much better. I don't want to
drop your group and so I hope you judge my contributions
worth the aggravation of asking for special dispensation.

LO: Sorry you have misunderstood me so horribly. I hope you
reconsider. BB, Lil

JCT: If you're really worried about keeping your old
archives and not losing the old as the new comes in, just
start isis-house2 and move the membership list. Yahoo
permits it and then there is no worry about losing archives
nor of my using too much bandwidth.

Then I got some trouble at the debate_and_more group where
the moderator was upset at me for having drawn complainants.
Richard, are you and craftybitch Cher on this group? Whoever
you are, you sure got the moderator mad at me:

MY FIRST RESPONSE

>Okay. That's about enough. If you are not going to
>participate in the group, or engage in any of the debate
>brought about by your posts, please stop sending them. We
>do not appreciate spammers. kareen
>(moderator, Debate and More)

Jct: Lady, this is news. I have to type up 61 pages
of government factum, do another major factum, now work on
another Appeal Book and Factum and you tell me to hop to it
in responding to your comments. My responses often come
days, even weeks, later. But I'm sorry but I've now lost
interest in doing so. Go ahead and censor it if quick
response to you is a requirement but don't ask me to stop
sending. You decided for your whole group. Please. I don't
want to belong to a censored group anyway. So censor and
I'll be happy to be gone with my news you have labelled
spam.

MY SECOND RESPONSE

<<
#2 Stop the spam

>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
>From: kareen_lambert@... (kareen lambert)
>Subject: Re: Stop the spam
>To: TURMEL@...

KL: One of the points of this group is that posts be
pertinent to those participating in the group. As a
moderator I have to field complaints from other group
members over posts that are cluttering up their in-boxes for
no apparent reason.

JCT: This problem keeps cropping up. These people don't want
to read it and they don't want other people to read it and
they've asked you to censor everyone's information. Right.

Keep in mind, there are a crew of people who follow
everywhere I am invited to post to join and then complain.
Go take a quick look at the subscription dates of your
complainers and maybe you'll find that some are brand new.

Nevertheless, these people are asking you to censor what
the other members get to read. Anyone interested loses the
feed because others decided they didn't want them reading
what the objectors didn't want to read.

Please understand what kind of people these are. I wish
you'd publish their complaints for the whole group and let
them help you decide if the group needs their menus censored
by these people.

I think it's a pretty sick individual who needs to have
something he doesn't have to read censored so others can't
read it too. Then again, don't forget the people dogging me
everywhere I go.

KL: Your posts were brought to my attention three days ago,
and an attempt was made to engage you in honest debate. I
apologize if I have offended you, as it is not intended as a
personal attack, but the group seems largely uninterested in
reading through your posts, and you seemed uninterested in
debating them.

JCT: What if I took a break? Or I was too busy? Or I just
didn't want to engage in that topic? Where does it say I
have to respond and where is there a time limit?

The people who have put you in this position are sick.
Still, it's amazing how many moderators have fallen for it
and become the pawn of the censors without even letting
their groups know what they did.

KL: You stood out as fitting the bill for a typical spammer.
We get lots of them, and you're not the first person we've
had to ask to stop.

JCT: You label my news spam. I think you're wrong.

KL: I would rather discuss it openly with you than take the
action that *was* recommended, which was to simply block
you.

JCT: Of course they would recommend that. No one in your
group finds out that you censored their material. They just
think I disappeared without even realizing that the back-
room boys got you to do the dirty deed and then have to hide
it because you're probably an not an evil person into
censorship and so you know it's a dirty deed. But you want
to be nice to all these nice complainers.

They are not nice people. Anyone who impose their will on
others, in secret, is bad news. Let them beef in public.
They can't. They need to to their dirty work in the
background and they need to find a nice moderator who
assumes the complainers are nice people too. They are not.
They are the worst undemocratic people and the sooner you
fess up who they are to the group and what they made you do,
the better you'll feel.

KL: As of yet, from what I have been told (I was absent for
a while) you have yet to introduce yourself to the group, or
explain your purpose in sending these posts.  I'm sure there
are many tha

JCT: I sent an introduction, told people what to expect,
that's why you should publish this and let the democrats in
the group support you in resisting the background censors
who follow me around.

Keep in mind, my LETS has saved thousands of children's
lives and my UNILETS will end poverty on the planet so you
can bet my opposition is rather sophisticated.

But I've caught them joining groups just to complain.
So always keep in mind they are not offending just me but
they are offending the other members of group by getting you
to censor their news by convincing you news can be spam.

And the quicker you let it through, the better you'll feel.
Especially when do my regular censorship report on group
moderators who fell for the background urgings to
censorship and had to hide it by censoring the complaints.

Finally consider the time they've made me waste trying to
keep a unique news feed alive to your members. I've been
invited to write to 5 groups in the last 2 weeks and you're
the second tonight to inform me of complaints. So keep in
mind that the person who invited me is getting shafted if
you censor my posts.
>>

JCT: It obviously didn't impress:

>From:   kareen_lambert
>Date:  Wed Apr 30, 2003  12:30 am
>Subject:  Re: TURMEL: #2 Stop the spam
>To: <Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com>

Okay, that does it......whoever it is in here who is 'the
man'  attempting to 'keep down' this pro-pot propoganda,
show yourselves at once! Enough stalking this poor man
around the net! Sorry, I tend to not take the whole
conspiracy theory thing too seriously. Been at this a
little too long I guess. Oh well.  kareen

JCT: You're lucky Richard that the lady doesn't believe that
you and the bitchcraft join groups to get me barred. Why
don't you speak up and take credit? Oops, as long as people
don't take your conspiracy theory seriously, it's easier to
get away with with future moderators.

Sorry, kareen, but this is no bull. I'm a debt-slave
politician who is fighting for the debt slaves in ways that
are effective. Don't you think the masters aren't trying to
impede my progress? Even the UN had to tamper with the
Millennium Declaration to delete the word UNILETS before it
reached the world leaders who would have recognized the word
LETS from their own nations but who may not have recognized
"time-based currency" as such. I've been the victim of such
magnificent opposition from the highest sources that I can't
blame you for disbelieving that my claim to not being just
your ordinary character, even if I am in the Great Canadian
Character Anthology and Guinness Book of Records and gave
the UN Millennium speech on anti-poverty banking. Well,
maybe I can blame you for disbelieving. Those are pretty
non-standard credentials, aren't they? Well you can believe
that the opposition is out in full force because everyone of
my shots is always on goal.

And to save the day, defending:

>To: <Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com>
>From:  "Domenic" <dferrante@w...>
>Date:  Wed Apr 30, 2003  12:33 am
>Subject:  Re: [Debate_and_More] Re: Stop the spam

Hello......I am new here, but a LONG time friend of Allan's,
and, yes, a liberal. My opinion is that if this group is
censored, I am out of here. This was the first post that I
looked at, and, it does NOT make a good impression on me, as
I don't stay at groups that are censored, and, in fact, have
outright left groups when members were censored.

I can't seem to find the original post to verify that this
is censorship. However, if I see someone getting lambasted
for NOT responding quick enough, this is NOT the group for
me, as I teach 4 days per week, one day at an inner city
Lutheran school and the other three at a private dance
studio, my house is on the market, I am trying to find a new
bigger house, I have three kids, ages 5, 10, and 14, I also
have a HUGE white Siberian Husky, I am attempting to also
locate a good facility to open my own dance studio (as I am
sick and tired of people telling me what to do when I really
DO know better)

I am vice president of the board of directors for The
Milwaukee Dance Connection, a professional contemporary
modern dance company, and I am VERY involved with both my
family and my in laws. One more thing, I will be gone for 7
days chaperoning my 4th grade son's field trip to
Williamsburg, VA.

So, are quick responses necessary to stay on this board or
not? If so, let me know now and I won't waste any more of
anyone else's time. Amie

P.S. The short answer is that censorship, in a forum that is
relatively "free" would be a bad thing. Too many
restrictions are being put on speech these days, and,
regardless of your political leanings, freedom of speech,
ala Tom Paine's Common Sense, is a cornerstone of the US,
my country.
===

>From: kareen_lambert
>Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003  12:40 am
>Subject: Re: Stop the spam

hello amie, nice to hear from you.

No, this is not an attempt at censoring him. He's jumping to
conclusions, and no, speedy replies and constant
participation are not required. But, the group tends to look
poorly on spamming. Posting long articles when one has no
intention of debating them or participating in the group in
any manner takes up space. His posts  had been responded to
in an attempt to strike up debate, and those responses had
been ignored, and as I said, he was looking like your basic
spammer.  kareen

JCT: I'm happy to point out that kareen hasn't stopped any
of my posts but the fact I may not be able to respond to
discussion should not qualify my news as spam. News can
never be spam as long as it's related to the topic.
Especially in a group called debate_and_more.

MY THIRD RESPONSE:

Turmel: Visit to Kingston

>From: Debate_and_More@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 14:51:56 -0000
>From: kareen_lambert
>Subject: Re: Turmel: Visit to Kingston

KL: so what are you doing, just sending us all of your
impertinent e-mails now too? is this some bizarre revenge?
At least the pro-pot stuff had debatable issues in it.
kareen

JCT: So the group have received two announcements of when
I'll be speaking on radio and live in Kingston. Is there any
problem with that?

Even though you aren't interested, are you proclaiming that
no one else has a right to be interested either?

Excuse me if this ain't philosophy. It's social engineering
news. If some people want to comment on what's "going on,"
fine. If not, fine. And if I only want to provide fodder for
discussion but no more, am I going to get a hassle every
time? Why don't you pretend I'm talking to the people who
invited me and others who may have become interested and
that I'm not saying anything of interest for you. No one
says you have to read all messages just because you're
the moderator. I moderate a dozen lists and I can't read
them all.

So another bunch of time wasted fighting off the complaints
to moderators by people who don't want others reading what
they don't want to read.

Final point, did you look to see if the complainants had
just recently joined. I'd love to catch them at it again.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 18:28:54 -0400
>From: rdpriest@... (Richard Priestman)
>Subject: a visit to Kingston
>To: TURMEL@... (John C Turmel)
>Cc: matovic@... (Darko Matovic)

2//503
Mr. John Turmel
This letter is on behalf of the Kingston Chapter of the
Committee on Monetary and Economic Reform (COMER).

JCT: Interesting. I made my first presentation on Global
LETS to the COMER conference back in 1985 at U of Waterloo.
If you do a search on the net for Turmel and Hotson, you'll
find my interview with him back in 1993.

We meet at 99 York Street, an old house which is used as a
community centre. The meetings are very informal, running
from 1:30 to 4:00 on the second Sunday of the month. If you
would be interested, our next meeting will be held on May
11. We have very few funds, but we could off set your
travelling expenses from Ottawa. I look forward to hearing
from you. Richard Priestman President, COMER Kingston

JCT: I'd love to come. Say it's booked. All I'll need is a
bus ticket Ottawa-Kingston return.
Looking forward to meeting with monetary keeners.



--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-562-0669

>From: ijccr@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 01:53:14 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: musing on the earth conversation

>>So we don't need to use gold or hours or energy or a
>>basket of global "commodities" as a stabilizing factor for
>>a community/complimentary currency system. We can just use
>>the very goods and services of the participants in the
>>system. I believe this would be very good way to build
>>such a system.

S: I'm latching on to this conversation at this point
because the description tunes in with something I noticed
about how people operate LETS systems...around here.

Somewhere along the way they tend to start separating the
commodities traded from the 'assigned value', and they
manifest this in their documentation.

So a column listing 'goods received' eventually becomes
detached on a report from a column listing 'point value'.
Pretty soon everyone starts obsessing on the numbers in the
value column. Wasn't LETS supposed to be about 'move
directly to Go. You don't need the $200'!?

When I did records for my group I bunched up the goods with
the numbers so they stayed together. I soon realised that
anyone would feel better looking at a list naming the good
things they'd received and and the services performed for
them than a list of numbers they OWED!!

I observe that no one in my LETS group seems to have a
problem with wanting to RETURN the energy received back to
the community- in fact we mentally torture ourselves with
guilt (typical gals!) when we haven't. Which leads me to
believe that we should always encourage new members first
off to acquire, acquire, acquire...
a) so that they get a buzz, and
b) it provides older members who they are acquiring from a
chance to 'give back'... and
c) the process one would expect, would encourage the next
new who will also find joining beneficial because of the
pattern of getting to receive first. (I have just noticed
this is much like the process known as Human Reproduction,
down through the generations!)

JCT: It does seem to stress a fundamental human
characteristic that Tom Kennedy had noted in his Grade 5
class use of LETS. Guilt for owing and wanting to pay it
back and get into the positive. That's why LETS that start
everyone with a certain standard amount, like Ithaca, do not
experience this kind of impediment.

S: funnily the polar opposite of
maketonsofmoneywhilereversingagingevenasyoulosewightand
developaabiggerfingerwhilstsendingthousandsofharassing
junkemails  FOR WHAT??!!!!

So, your list of what you acquire becomes a '+' list (a list
of 'plus' points demarking energy received) which is
conversely a measure of your 'debt' to society. This number
REDUCES as you 'pay back', which also FEELS GOOD to do.

JCT: That's another way to make LETS feel good.

S: Idyllic dreams: This system could equally be applied to
reckon up our debt to the generous planet, the sun, our
ancestors, our unknown allies, indigenous people if we are
the colonistas, the third world (if we are not them
ourselves), the third world ancestors, our worthy opponents,
etc. And all historically exploited people should
automatically become recipients first off!

Strangely this is the opposite of what LETS seems to
manifest in its method of documentation!

JCT: Don't forget, I didn't have anything to do with the
documentation and if people have been led to ride their
machines backwards, it does not detract from the system when
ridden right.

S: AND if people would turn it around like this it would
immediately come into congruency with federal 'tax' reward
systems at least here in Australia. So that when you GIVE
LOCALLY, you pay less tax federally.

What else? What do I need? What do I give? I have given
BIRTH, how much is that worth, mother sun?! All I need is
LOVE, poetry, intelligent conversation, a quest, humor,
food, a roof, beauty, a bicycle - only a car if people don't
live close to me... failing the internet, that is. And to
see the world thrive so all people may live in Peace-
without burning that dead stuff, soon, I hope. Sue
(great great niece of Sir Ernest Rutherford <^;)

>Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:55:37 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: [ijccr] Basket of Goodies

>Let me guess that the people having large, and growing,
>positive balances are the ones growing concerned, like,
>"Hey, I have given X thousands of loaves of bread over this
>counter, in return for all these LETS certificates.. now I
>am getting behind in paying for my employees and my wheat
>and electricity... hmmm who are the people who have all the
>negative balances?  Oh my gosh, they haven't been heard
>from in ages!"

Just taking a couple of your points (thanks, I'll add them
to my balance... hehe) A baker in a LETS system would not be
in this situation. If they were drawing their power and
grain from others in a LETS system, the thousands of loaves
of bread they gave out would certainly qualify them to
receive these necessities from those who are offering them.

If it was a hybrid situation they would not be so silly as
to give out thousands of loaves to LETSERS unless they were
able to balance the input. You always in LETS have
permission to refuse to trade. They might though be able to
balance the input by having someone on LETS fix their car,
or clean their house, or babysit, or give them hi tech goods
or any of a number of energy inputs which save them the
money so they can use it to buy what they have to.

JCT: But easiest of all is to charge part Green and the
other part cash to cover cash expenses.

S: We can complain all we like about the delusion of the
monetary system but let's face it, whoever performed the
sleight of hand was clever enough to think it up and
consistently convince people. To make LETS work people have
collectively to apply an equal amount or better of creative
power, flexibility, innovation, will and whatever else it
takes. (Not that I am convinced that LETS is the be all and
end all)

JCT: No, UNILETS is the be all and end all. The Local LETS
model has all sorts of problems that cannot exist once the
total database becomes accessible to all members.

S: If LETS people could smell the value of those tempting
loaves of bread then someone might eventually get smart and
think up away of including power sources and agricultural
sources into the system. But there doesn't have to be a
DIRECT LETS relationship between these various ingredients,
I remind you.

JCT: That's because the "L is for Local" crowd have striven
to keep it small and ineffectual. Okay, they didn't aim at
keeping it ineffectual but keeping it small did the same
thing.

>Let's face it, many of these people may be laboring under
>some handicaps, some mental attitudes, some addictions, or
>just rotten folks.  For whatever reason, the risk is ending
>up with people who are *not* efficient producers
>particularly for the more complicated or unpleasant tasks
>of production.

Todd, I have enjoyed the bluntness of your observations on
'addictiveness' in as Australia is rife with it but I beg to
differ here - there is not necessarily anything wrong with a
person with a handicap benifiting from a LETS system. Who
says we have to all give equally? My interest in Indigenous
systems and pre-industrialised forms of culture have
particularly made me aware that a society can function very
nicely with other paradigms - stronger members helping care
for weaker... middle-aged people can care for old, old for
young,.. who says we do not personally BENEFIT from
altruistic satisfaction of our potential to give to others?

JCT: I don't know how many times I have expressed my
approval for the Timedollar operators who give open credit
lines to little old people who will never be able to pay it
back. I don't know how many times I have repeated that they
are counting on the next generation to do the same for them
even if Todd doesn't trust the next generation enough.

S: AND look at how our entire society (ok I'm being
patriarchal-centric here!) has sustained itself simply by
refusing to value monetarily the caring, cleaning, teaching,
healing, shopping, cooking, maintaining and sustaining work
of 50% or more of the population. ALSO I am reading at the
moment of how 'white' has been consistently applied in the
US and Australia to 'whoever doesn't have to do the yukky
jobs'... White has automatic entitlements... in Australia
and US (and others) all sorts of 'non-white' people (which
changes according to this economic stuff) have been brought
in or rounded up to do lowly paid or even no pay work for
the entitled  and benefiting White people... that's what our
CURRENT economy rests on. So to say we can manage to 'carry'
a few 'non-productive' people is not a big ask.

JCT: Can't wait until all LETSers feel like Timedollarers
too.

S: A very interesting book is called 'Society as an Addict'
by a woman called something-Ann-Schaeffer (sorry, forgot
name- can find out) which compares the characteristics of a
Western Industrialised society with an individual addict -
and disovers they are the same... Selfishness, Consumerism,
Toxicity, Denial (as far as I can remember, you'd better
read it yourself!). She made a convincing case that people
born into these societies are ENCOURAGED from birth to
acquire addictive mind sets and behaviors... in an
individual, addictiveness can be can be intervened with so
maybe societally too...it will be just as hard work though.

JCT: Right. They've been conditioned to eschew personal
initiative and strive for consensus before doing anything
which permits a few nay-sayers to nullify their worth.
They've been brain-washed into such sick behavior.

S: Anyway, I've never noticed any real encumbrance weak or
handicaped people place on a LETS system apart from the way
I think about them... which challenges me to see if it's all
in my head...

JCT: Except for guys who worried about being repaid.

S: This message has had plenty to digest in it already but
in closing, I'll just say I find the whole telescoped
colonial occupation of Iraq to be a disturbing but an
intriguing look at the forces of subjection and colonisation
before our very eyes.

JCT: And some of us found out about the puppet's strings
before they got before our very eyes. But it is a heck of an
education watching the Amerikan booboisie's consent being
manufactured in real time. Any bets that in a few months,
they'll all believing that the Iranian Ayattolas did 9-11
like they make them believe Saddam did it too?

S: Right down to the Language which has been so OBVIOUSLY
gendered ie. "softening up", "thrusting", "probing",- cities
"fall" (like a 'fallen woman') - and the projected attitude
towards the population by the US is unashamedly 'they are
poor, helpeless victims, unable to help themselves, they
need our forceful, masculine,

JCT: Hey, some pretty heartless feminazis too. Madeleine
Albright who answered that half a million dead Iraqi
children wasn't too high a price to pay to ensure their
Kuwaiti Royals kept their stolen oil wells.

S: sometimes brutal help to give them a better life (which
they are incapable of doing for themselves)' 'and if that
means surrendering up their autonomy, their resources, their
freedoms for our benefit (o, yeh, THEIR benefit too)- well,
so be it'. How typical of a patriarchal gendered
(male/female) relationship is THAT!! Food for thought eh...
would you like some fishes with that? Sue  <^;O*

>Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 02:04:39 +0930
>From: Sue <sunet@...>
>Subject: YES!

A sample from Buckminster Fuller's article (thanks for
posting the websites Mr Chance!)

Hey, when did he write this?   Sue
from: http://BFI.org/grunch_of_giants.htm

Spaceship Earth now has 150 admirals. The five admirals in
the staterooms immediately above the ship's fuel tanks claim
that they own the oil. The admirals with staterooms
surrounding the ship's kitchen, dining rooms, and food
refrigerators claim they own all the food. Those with a
stateroom next to a lifeboat claim that they own the
lifeboat, and so forth. They then have an onboard game
called balance of trade. Very shortly the majority of
admirals have a deficit balance. All the while the
starboard-side admirals are secretly planning to list the
boat to port far enough to drown the portside admirals,
while the portside admirals are secretly trying to list the
boat to starboard far enough to drown the starboard-side
admirals. Nobody is paying any attention to operating the
ship or steering it to some port. They run out of food and
fuel. They discover that they can no longer reach a port of
supply. Finis.

Humanity is now experiencing history's most difficult
evolutionary transformation. We are moving away from a
rooted life-style with a 95-percent rate of illiteracy. We
are almost unconsciously drifting away from self-identity
with our ages-long, physically-remote-from-one-another
existence as 150 separate, sovereign nations. Now the
uprooted humans of all nations are spontaneously deploying
into their physically integrated highways and airways and
satellite-relayed telephone speakways, into a big-city way-
stationed, world-around living system.

We may soon be atom-bombed into extinction by the preemptive
folly of the political puppet administrators fronting for
the exclusively-for-money-making, supranational
corporations' weaponry industry of the now hopelessly
bankrupt greatest-weapons-manufacturing nation (the U.S.A.).

If not bomb-terminated, we are on our ever swifter way to
becoming an omni-integrated, majorly literate, unified
Spaceship Earth society.

The new human networks' emergence represents the natural
evolutionary expansion into the just completed, thirty-
years-in - its-buildings world-embracing, physical
communications network. The new reorienting of human
networking constitutes the heart-and-mind-pumped flow of
life and intellect into the world arteries...

JCT: And all this insanity is the result of humanity trying
to pay back more monetary tokens than the banks printed and
loaned out in the first place. All the bad vibrations stem
from that one great instability, the greatest sin on earth,
usury, interest on sterile non-baby-producing money.


--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel / http://www.medpot.net 613-225-3885