--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Lenny Flank <lflank@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/3/09, groucoeng <groucoeng@...> wrote:
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> > Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: why wsm has not grown? Lenny you must have missed
this posting.
>
>
> I didn't miss it -- my response got put in the holding tank by the moderator.

Hi Lenny
Ilook forward to tou original reply When it finds its way out of the tank.


>
>
>
> > > > > Your view of history is that
> > > > > it is one to one to one to one. . .etc.�


> > > > Nope.� Wrong.�
> > > >
> > > > Please don't presume to tell me what my view of
> > history is. Stick to, um, telling the working class what it
> > should be thinking and wanting.
>
> In case that was not clear, I am not a determinist. I am a HISTORICAL
materialist, not a PHILOSOPHICAL materialist.


I think you are replying to Byron here, not me
>
>
> > Im my veiw there are three material preconditions
> > nessasary to the achievement of socialism.

This is me

>
> A simple question for you, then----
>
> Can we, or can we not, have socialism (whether through election or through
revolution) without an organized working class?
>
> If we can, tell me HOW.
>
> If we can't, then how is "the existence of an organized working class" NOT a
material precondition for socialism, without which all of our efforts come to
nothing?
>
>
>
>
> > Could you please tell us what is "utopian" about a
> > classless society, an association of from each according to
> > ability, to each according to need and where the condition
> > for the free development of each is the condition for the
> > free development af all?
> >
>
>
> Nothing is utopian about any of that. Indeed, material historical conditions
are leading us precisely to that --- and even the corporados are being forced
into it, by hard cold economic reality. That is why the corporados are currently
doing more to construct an actual socialist system than the socialists are.
They have no choice.
>
> What IS utopian, though, is the romantic idea that we high priests of
socialism can bring it about, at any given time in history, just by preaching
about it hard enough.
>
> We haven't. We won't. We can't.
>
> The conditions for it aren't there yet. And until those conditions ARE there
(including such things as . . . oh . . . an organized working class), then all
our preaching is just pie in the sky puffery.
>

Reading the above begs the question. As a member of the working class who wants
to see an end to capitalism as soon as possible, could you give some idea on the
best way for us workers to organise to that end?

Fraternaly

Dan Lambert WSM SPGB