This has been rumbling on for a few years now.  It might be of interest to
members.

http://anthologyoi.com/blogish/beyond-the-socialist-dream-a-money-less-society-p\
art-i.html#comments

Cheers,

Bob
***

OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB on
Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I wonder?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html

cheers

Robin

Hi Robin

Either I am a total klutz or Revleft is the most annoying site I have ever
entered.  Four times, I have logged in, recieved a welcome notice, typed up a
post and then been thrown out with the post lost.

Given up!

This has happened before as well.  Do you have any experience of anything like
it?

Cheers

Richard

- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@...> wrote:
>
> OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB on
Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I wonder?
>
> http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
>
> cheers
>
> Robin
>

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Robin
>
> Either I am a total klutz or Revleft is the most annoying site I have ever
entered.  Four times, I have logged in, recieved a welcome notice, typed up a
post and then been thrown out with the post lost.
>
> Given up!
>
> This has happened before as well.  Do you have any experience of anything like
it?
>
> Cheers
>
> Richard
>




Hi Richard

Not quite sure what yer on about, mate.  Your post has been posted and
attracting notice.  Where are others in the SPGB, though?

Cheers

Robin



> - In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@> wrote:
> >
> > OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB
on Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I wonder?
> >
> > http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Robin
> >
>

On 10 July 2011 19:14, robbo203 <robbo203@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB
> on Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I
> wonder?
>
> http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
>


Interestingly, a contributor to Revleft came to the meeting at Head Office
yesterday and expressed an interest in joining the Party.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael Albert has just posted a number of replies to "anarchist critics of
parecon" on his site here. In this one he tries to deal with some of the isssues
raised in our debate with him:

http://www.zcommunications.org/answering-anarchist-critics-part-3-by-michael-alb\
ert

As expected, his defence of the continuation of money, prices, remuneration, etc
is no different from what it always been but his attack on the principle "from
each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" is pitiful.

And he doesn't deal with the pressures in his blueprint on people working in
workplaces with below average productivity to work harder to achieve the agreed
surplus/cost ratio, measured in money, for the economy or industry.

Adam

http://www.zcommunications.org/venezuelas-path-by-michael-albert

--

Marcos


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just attempted to join Revleft to weigh in on this issue and was told my email
address had been banned!

To my knowledge I have never registered there before in my life.

Maybe it's a conspiracy... :)

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robin
> >
> > Either I am a total klutz or Revleft is the most annoying site I have ever
entered.  Four times, I have logged in, recieved a welcome notice, typed up a
post and then been thrown out with the post lost.
> >
> > Given up!
> >
> > This has happened before as well.  Do you have any experience of anything
like it?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
>
>
>
> Hi Richard
>
> Not quite sure what yer on about, mate.  Your post has been posted and
attracting notice.  Where are others in the SPGB, though?
>
> Cheers
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> > - In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@> wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB
on Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I wonder?
> > >
> > > http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > Robin
> > >
> >
>

Cheers Robin,

Yep, one out of four got through.

In the meantime, for everyone else, there's an interesting and surprisingly
restrained discussion going on there about what they consider to be our politics
which needs someone far more familiar with leftist rhetoric than I am to carry
it forward (and a greater capacity to spot quotes from M&E).


Every time I go on this site I come away feeling that I've led a very sheltered
life, politically.  The worst I've had to deal with is the occasional ranting
racist or nationalist.  This afternoonm, I wandered into one of their forums to
find a bunch of seriously deranged psycopaths practically dripping with saliva
as they discussed the "revolutionary will of the people" and how it must be
allowed to tear the capitalist class to bits...  I'd put it down to teenage
hormones, but some of these guys are clearly middle-aged.  Give me evangelicals
anyday. At least they are merely psychotic.

My respect to those of you who regularly dive in there and debate with these
guys.


Cheers

Dick
--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robin
> >
> > Either I am a total klutz or Revleft is the most annoying site I have ever
entered.  Four times, I have logged in, recieved a welcome notice, typed up a
post and then been thrown out with the post lost.
> >
> > Given up!
> >
> > This has happened before as well.  Do you have any experience of anything
like it?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
>
>
>
> Hi Richard
>
> Not quite sure what yer on about, mate.  Your post has been posted and
attracting notice.  Where are others in the SPGB, though?
>
> Cheers
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> > - In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@> wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the SPGB
on Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I wonder?
> > >
> > > http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > Robin
> > >
> >
>

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@...> wrote:
>
> Cheers Robin,
>
> Yep, one out of four got through.
>
> In the meantime, for everyone else, there's an interesting and surprisingly
restrained discussion going on there about what they consider to be our politics
which needs someone far more familiar with leftist rhetoric than I am to carry
it forward (and a greater capacity to spot quotes from M&E).
>
>

Hi Richard

Which discussion thread is that?  In the meanwhile I see Cockshott has reared up
again in defence of Soviet "socialism" and labour time vouchers.  You might want
to join in on that discussion too  He asserts that the "higher" stage of
communism still entails labour vouchers and Marx never really had in mind free
access  when he talked of this stage in the Critique of the Gotha Programme...

See here
http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-and-its-t157035/index.html?p=2170974#post217\
0974

cheers

Robin

Hi Robin.

Its in the Politics forum.  The thread is called something like "why the
bouregoise fear violence on the streets"

There is a guy who has just declared he is autistic who wants to do Che Guevara
impressions up in the mountains and conduct a guerrilla war against the American
capitalist class.  Violence appears to be the only road to socialism.  He's very
keen on Ho Chi Minh. He's been arguing the case with his mum apparently (but
doesn't seem to have convinced her yet.)

You just couldn't make it up.

OK so we need to put this in context.  However, he seems to have encouraged a
few more psychopaths out of the woodwork who don't have the same excuses.

"Bread for every household! A gun for every toddler!"  You get the drift.

There are lunatics everwhere!

Cheers

Dick

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@> wrote:
> >
> > Cheers Robin,
> >
> > Yep, one out of four got through.
> >
> > In the meantime, for everyone else, there's an interesting and surprisingly
restrained discussion going on there about what they consider to be our politics
which needs someone far more familiar with leftist rhetoric than I am to carry
it forward (and a greater capacity to spot quotes from M&E).
> >
> >
>
> Hi Richard
>
> Which discussion thread is that?  In the meanwhile I see Cockshott has reared
up again in defence of Soviet "socialism" and labour time vouchers.  You might
want to join in on that discussion too  He asserts that the "higher" stage of
communism still entails labour vouchers and Marx never really had in mind free
access  when he talked of this stage in the Critique of the Gotha Programme...
>
> See here
http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-and-its-t157035/index.html?p=2170974#post217\
0974
>
> cheers
>
> Robin
>

>> You might want to join in on that discussion too  He asserts that the
"higher" stage of communism still entails labour vouchers and Marx never really
had in mind free access  when he talked of this stage in the Critique of the
Gotha Programme...
>
> See here
http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-and-its-t157035/index.html?p=2170974#post217\
0974
>
> cheers
>
> Robin
>


Groan!  Not sure I'm up to that kind of debate.  It needs someone who is much
more consistently well read in Marx and left politics than I am.  I'd have to
spend too much time frantically reading to keep up.  I'll take a look though.

Cheers

Hi Richard and Robbo

I am having a rest from Revleft at the moment, I think you have to pick your
debates, although there is the problem with pseudo vanguardist intellectuals
attempting to bully ordinary workers but they are full of hot air mostly.

I had a quick look at the lower phase of communism  thread; if it is of any use
Robbo there is a unedited cut and paste of quotes of what people thought the
higher phase was before cockshit was in diapers;




1844 Letter from Engels to Marx in Paris


The Teutons are all still very muddled about the practicability of communism; to
dispose of this absurdity I intend to write a short pamphlet showing that
communism has already been put into practice and describing in popular terms how
this is at present being done in England and America. [12] The thing will take
me three days or so, and should prove very enlightening for these fellows. I've
already observed this when talking to people here.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/letters/44_10_01.htm#n12

Eg.


Frederick Engels  Description of Recently Founded Communist Colonies Still in
Existence; Written: in mid-October 1844




Amongst these people no one is obliged to work against his will, and no one
seeks work in vain. They have no poor-houses and infirmaries, having not a
single person poor and destitute, nor any abandoned widows and orphans; all
their needs are met and they need fear no want. In their ten towns there is not
a single gendarme or police officer, no judge, lawyer or soldier, no prison or
penitentiary; and yet there is proper order in all their affairs. The laws of
the land are not for them and as far as they are concerned could just as well be
abolished and nobody would notice any difference for they are the most peaceable
citizens and have never yielded a single criminal for the prisons. They enjoy,
as we said, the most absolute community of goods and have no trade and no money
among themselves.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/10/15.htm




And from Lenin;
V. I. Lenin, From the Destruction of the Old Social System, To the Creation of
the New



Communist labour in the narrower and stricter sense of the term is labour
performed gratis for the benefit of society, labour performed not as a definite
duty, not for the purpose of obtaining a right to certain products, not
according to previously established and legally fixed quotas, but voluntary
labour, irrespective of quotas;

  it is labour performed without expectation of reward, without reward as a
condition, labour performed because it has become a habit to work for the common
good, and because of a conscious realisation (that has become a habit) of the
necessity of working for the common good—labour as the requirement of a healthy
organism.

It must be clear to everybody that we, i.e., our society, our social system, are
still a very long way from the application of this form of labour on a broad,
really mass scale.


But the very fact that this question has been raised, and raised both by the
whole of the advanced proletariat (the Communist Party and the trade unions) and
by the state authorities, is a step in this direction.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/apr/11.htm

Trotsky;

Leon Trotsky, The Revolution Betrayed,  Chapter 3, Socialism and the State



The material premise of communism should be so high a development of the
economic powers of man that productive labor, having ceased to be a burden, will
not require any goad, and the distribution of life's goods, existing in
continual abundance, will not demand – as it does not now in any well-off family
or "decent" boarding-house – any control except that of education, habit and
social opinion. Speaking frankly, I think it would be pretty dull-witted to
consider such a really modest perspective "utopian."


http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/ch03.htm

Trotsky's Terrorism and Communism




The Mensheviks are against this. This is quite comprehensible, because in
reality they are against the dictatorship of the proletariat. It is to this, in
the long run, that the whole question is reduced. The Kautskians are against the
dictatorship of the proletariat, and are thereby against all its consequences.

Both economic and political compulsion are only forms of the expression of the
dictatorship of the working class in two closely connected regions. True,
Abramovich demonstrated to us most learnedly that under Socialism there will be
no compulsion, that the principle of compulsion contradicts Socialism, that
under Socialism we shall be moved by the feeling of duty, the habit of working,
the attractiveness of labor, etc., etc. This is unquestionable.

Only this unquestionable truth must be a little extended. In point of fact,
under Socialism there will not exist the apparatus of compulsion itself, namely,
the State: for it will have melted away entirely into a producing and consuming
commune. None the less, the road to Socialism lies through a period of the
highest possible intensification of the principle of the State. And you and I
are just passing through that period. Just as a lamp, before going out, shoots
up in a brilliant flame, so the State, before disappearing, assumes the form of
the dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the most ruthless form of State,
which embraces the life of the citizens authoritatively in every direction. Now
just that insignificant little fact – that historical step of the State
dictatorship – Abramovich, and in his person the whole of Menshevism, did not
notice; and consequently, he has fallen over it.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1920/terrcomm/ch08.htm





Kuatsky;

Karl Kautsky The Labour Revolution
III. The Economic Revolution X. MONEY


Besides this rigid allocation of an equal measure of the necessaries and
enjoyments of life to each individual, another form of Socialism without money
is conceivable, the Leninite interpretation of what Marx described as the second
phase of communism: each to produce of his own accord as much as he can, the
productivity of labour being so high and the quantity and variety of products so
immense that everyone may be trusted to take what he needs. For this purpose
money would not be needed.

We have not yet progressed so far as this. At present we are unable to divine
whether we shall ever reach this state. But that Socialism with which we are
alone concerned to-day, whose features we can discern with some precision from
the indications that already exist, will unfortunately not have this enviable
freedom and abundance at its disposal, and will therefore not be able to do
without money.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1924/labour/ch03_j.htm#sb


Hyndman;

Henry Mayers Hyndman The Record of an Adventurous Life
Chapter XV Start of Social Democracy


"A much more serious objection to Kropotkin and other Anarchists is their wholly
unscrupulous habit of reiterating statements that have been repeatedly proved to
be incorrect, and even outrageous, by the men and women to whom they are
attributed. Time after time I have told Kropotkin, time after time has he read
it in print, that Social-Democrats work for the complete overthrow of the wages
system. He has admitted this to be so. But a month or so afterwards the same old
oft-refuted misrepresentation appears in the same old authoritative fashion, as
if no refutation of the calumny, that we wish to maintain wage-slavery, had ever
been made."



http://www.marxists.org/archive/hyndman/1911/adventure/chap15.html


Peter Kropotkin 1920
The Wage System

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1920/wage.htm


And even uncle Joe before he became a revisionist.

J. V. Stalin  ANARCHISM or SOCIALISM? 1906



Future society will be socialist society. This means also that, with the
abolition of exploitation commodity production and buying and selling will also
be abolished and, therefore, there will be no room for buyers and sellers of
labour power, for employers and employed -- there will be only free workers.
Future society will be socialist society. This means, lastly, that in that
society the abolition of wage-labour will be accompanied by the complete
abolition of the private ownership of the instruments and means of production;
there will be neither poor proletarians nor rich capitalists -- there will be
only workers who collectively own all the land and minerals, all the forests,
all the factories and mills, all the railways, etc.


As you see, the main purpose of production in the future will be to satisfy the
needs of society and not to produce goods for sale in order to increase the
profits of the capitalists. Where there will be no room for commodity
production, struggle for profits, etc.

It is also clear that future production will be socialistically organised,
highly developed production, which will take into account the needs of society
and will produce as much as society needs. Here there will be no room whether
for scattered production, competition, crises, or unemployment.
Where there are no classes, where there are neither rich nor poor, there is no
need for a state, there is no
page 337

need either for political power, which oppresses the poor and protects the rich.
Consequently, in socialist society there will be no need for the existence of
political power.


That is why Karl Marx said as far back as 1846:


"The working class in the course of its development Will substitute for the old
bourgeois society an association which will exclude classes and their
antagonism, and there will be no more political power properly so-called . . . "
(see The Poverty of Philosophy).[89]

That is why Engels said in 1884:

"The state, then, has not existed from all eternity. There have been societies
that did without it, that had no conception of the state and state power. At a
certain stage of economic development, which was necessarily bound up with the
cleavage of society into classes, the state became a necessity. . . . We are now
rapidly approaching a stage in the development of production at which the
existence of these classes not only will have ceased to be a necessity, but will
become a positive hindrance to production. They will fall as inevitably as they
arose at an earlier stage. Along with them the state will inevitably fall. The
society that will organise production on the basis of a free and equal
association of the producers will put the whole machinery of state where it will
then belong: into the Museum of Antiquities, by the side of the spinning wheel
and the bronze axe"

  (see The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State).[

At the same time, it is self-evident that for the purpose of administering
public affairs there will have to be in socialist society, in addition to local
offices which

page 338

will collect all sorts of information, a central statistical bureau, which will
collect information about the needs of the whole of society, and then distribute
the various kinds of work among the working people accordingly. It will also be
necessary to hold conferences, and particularly congresses, the decisions of
which will certainly be binding upon the comrades in the minority until the next
congress is held.


Lastly, it is obvious that free and comradely labour should result in an equally
comradely, and complete, satisfaction of all needs in the future socialist
society This means that if future society demands from each of its members as
much labour as he can perform, it, in its turn, must provide each member with
all the products he needs. From each according to his ability, to each according
to his needs! -- such is the basis upon which the future collectivist system
must be created. It goes without saying that in the first stage of socialism,
when elements who have not yet grown accustomed to work are being drawn into the
new way of life, when the productive forces also will not yet have been
sufficiently developed and there will still be "dirty" and "clean" work to do,
the application of the principle: "to each according to his needs," will
undoubtelly be greatly hindered and, as a consequence, society will be obliged
temporarily to take some other path, a middle path. But it is also clear that
when future society runs into its groove, when the survivals of capitalism will
have been eradicated, the only principle that will conform to socialist society
will be the one pointed out above.
That is why Marx said in 1875:
page 339

"In a higher phase of communist (i.e., socialist) society, after the enslaving
subordination of the individual to the division of labour, and therewith also
the antithesis between mental and physical labour, has vanished; after labour
has become not only a means of livelihood but life's prime want; after the
productive forces have also increased with the all-round development of the
individual . . . only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois law be crossed in
iis entirety and society inscribe on its banners: "From each according to his
ability, to each according to his needs'" (see Critique of the Gotha
Programme).[91].


Such, in general, is the picture of future socialist society according to the
theory of Marx.

This is all very well. But is the achievement of socialism conceivable? Can we
assume that man will rid himself of his "savage habits"?

Or again: if everybody receives according to his needs, can we assume that the
level of the productive forces of socialist society will be adequate for this?
Socialist society presupposes an adequate development of productive forces and
socialist consciousness among men, their socialist enlightenment. At the present
time the development of productive forces is hindered by the existence of
capitalist property, but if we bear in mind that this capitalist property will
not exist in future society, it is self-evident that the productive forces will
increase tenfold. Nor must it be forgotten that in future society the hundreds
of thousands of present-day parasites, and also the unemployed, will set to work
and augment the ranks of the working people; and this will greatly stimulate the
development of the

page 340

productive forces. As regards men's "savage" sentiments and opinions, these are
not as eternal as some people imagine; there was a time, under primitive
communism, when man did not recognise private property; there came a time, the
time of individualistic production, when private property dominated the hearts
and minds of men; a new time is coming, the time of socialist production -- will
it be surprising if the hearts and minds of men become imbued with socialist
strivings? Does not being determine the "sentiments" and opinions of men?


http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/AS07.html#c3



--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@...> wrote:
>
> >> You might want to join in on that discussion too  He asserts that the
"higher" stage of communism still entails labour vouchers and Marx never really
had in mind free access  when he talked of this stage in the Critique of the
Gotha Programme...
> >
> > See here
http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialism-and-its-t157035/index.html?p=2170974#post217\
0974
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Robin
> >
>
>
> Groan!  Not sure I'm up to that kind of debate.  It needs someone who is much
more consistently well read in Marx and left politics than I am.  I'd have to
spend too much time frantically reading to keep up.  I'll take a look though.
>
> Cheers
>

I read that stuff and genuinely wonder what we, as a Party, gain from engaging
in discussion of that sort? The people on those forums are either entrenched in
their own Party's line and / or views or just downright nuts from what I can
gather. The average working person reading such conversations would recoil in
horror, bewilderment and derision and rightly so. Am I alone in thinking most of
that 'discussion' as puerile and pointless?

Would it not be better to concentrate trying to spread the message, the positive
message of replacing capitalism with socialism as we understand it, rather than
wasting hours and hours arguing about the finer points of what Lenin had for
breakfast in 1926 or what Marx may or may not have written about the Gulf war
had he been alive? I think this only serves to alienate potential converts to
the socialist cause, the main reason for our Party's existence as I see it.

Or maybe that's just me........

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm guessing Lenin had a light breakfast in 1926. ;-)

Just joking. I do agree with the sentiments of your post.

cheers,
Darren O'Neil


--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, David Humphries <the3humphries@...> wrote:
>
> I read that stuff and genuinely wonder what we, as a Party, gain from engaging
in discussion of that sort? The people on those forums are either entrenched in
their own Party's line and / or views or just downright nuts from what I can
gather. The average working person reading such conversations would recoil in
horror, bewilderment and derision and rightly so. Am I alone in thinking most of
that 'discussion' as puerile and pointless?
>
> Would it not be better to concentrate trying to spread the message, the
positive message of replacing capitalism with socialism as we understand it,
rather than wasting hours and hours arguing about the finer points of what Lenin
had for breakfast in 1926 or what Marx may or may not have written about the
Gulf war had he been alive? I think this only serves to alienate potential
converts to the socialist cause, the main reason for our Party's existence as I
see it.
>
> Or maybe that's just me........
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I am glad that Marx and Engels were not left wingers,  proto-Leninist, or
  nationalists, they were socialist revolutionaries, but they have been
turned into  its opposites by the leftists, and a bunch of opportunists.  I
deal with leftist every day, it is my daily bread and butter and they will
repeat the same biblical phrases all the time, they will repeat the same
political distortions, and they will jump from one  political juncture into
another one, and they can not live without the concept of leadership,
without an icon, praying to the so called motherland, to nationalism, and
  heroes,  and calling the workers to suicide themselves defending their own
ruling class. It is a repeating cycle, or a tape recorder.

Their main concern is practice, practice, and practice, reforms, reforms and
reforms,  and they will ask to the workers to go to the streets to confront
the repressive forces of the state  in order to defend a tenant against the
eviction from a landlord, situation that can be handled by a  public
defender,  or that a right wing leader must be taking to court in order to
make justice, they do not even understand that the so called capitalist
justice it is only a myth

It is like a  fanatic obsession, they can not live without directing the
working class, similar to a foreman from a factory,  or being pushed by
somebody else. Any social situation will be called a revolution,  or
socialism, or communism, and the right wingers will take advantages of their
political ignorance in order to blame socialism ( or Marx and Engels )  of
the killing, and massacres made by capitalism,  When Stalin died someone
said that he has the proper replacement, and they asked who was, and he
said: "The foreman of my factory", probably that worker summarized the whole
intention of the leftists and the so called vanguard party to lead

They will take phrases of Marx and Engels out of context  and will apply
them  to any situation in the same way that a pastor use biblical passages
in order to convince their followers. The worst part is when they  try to
unify Lenin, Mao, Trotsky, Stalin, Guevara,  Castro, and new kid on the
block: Hugo Chavez with Marx and Engels which show that they do not have a
clue about the real meaning of socialism-communism, and that they are only
reading comics books.

Revleft  is not an exception to the rules, and they will attack, they will
  try to discredit and denigrate the World Socialist Movement and the
Socialist Party of Great Britain without reading and without going deeply
into its history,( like the right wingers that attack socialism-communism
without reading anything about communism )  they do that because the
WSM/SPGB has been a different movement, a different type of political
organisation for more than 100 years, and we have not  been part of any
killings, and we have not support any dictators ( right wing or left wing )
and since the very beginning we knew that Leninism and Bolshevism was a
dangerous trend within the working class movement, even more Lenin himself
did not have the courage to discredit the WSM in the same manner that he did
with Karl Kautsky and any of his opponents including Martov. I am subscribed
to more that 75 forums of leftists and basically they are all the same.

In most of those forums when they do not agree with your conceptions they
will try to reject your messages, or they will expel you, and then they go
to others forum requesting human rights ( a bourgeoisie conceptions )
requesting freedom of the press, freedom of expressions, and calling
fascists to every body, and they will write to your personal email insulting
you because you have  not agreed with the ideas of their leaders, icons, and
the chieftains of their political clubs, personally I prefer to stay in this
forum when we can learn something new, and it is more open to new ideas. I
do

On 11 July 2011 16:32, Richard <hud955@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Cheers Robin,
>
> Yep, one out of four got through.
>
> In the meantime, for everyone else, there's an interesting and surprisingly
> restrained discussion going on there about what they consider to be our
> politics which needs someone far more familiar with leftist rhetoric than I
> am to carry it forward (and a greater capacity to spot quotes from M&E).
>
> Every time I go on this site I come away feeling that I've led a very
> sheltered life, politically. The worst I've had to deal with is the
> occasional ranting racist or nationalist. This afternoonm, I wandered into
> one of their forums to find a bunch of seriously deranged psycopaths
> practically dripping with saliva as they discussed the "revolutionary will
> of the people" and how it must be allowed to tear the capitalist class to
> bits... I'd put it down to teenage hormones, but some of these guys are
> clearly middle-aged. Give me evangelicals anyday. At least they are merely
> psychotic.
>
> My respect to those of you who regularly dive in there and debate with
> these guys.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dick
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Robin
> > >
> > > Either I am a total klutz or Revleft is the most annoying site I have
> ever entered. Four times, I have logged in, recieved a welcome notice, typed
> up a post and then been thrown out with the post lost.
> > >
> > > Given up!
> > >
> > > This has happened before as well. Do you have any experience of
> anything like it?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Richard
> >
> > Not quite sure what yer on about, mate. Your post has been posted and
> attracting notice. Where are others in the SPGB, though?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Robin
> >
> >
> >
> > > - In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "robbo203" <robbo203@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OK, it seems like there is a bit of a controversy blowing up over the
> SPGB on Revleft but where is the SPGB to put in its tuppeny happence worth I
> wonder?
> > > >
> > > > http://www.revleft.com/vb/communist-parties-uki-t157631/index2.html
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > >
> > > > Robin
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>



--

Marcos


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, David Humphries <the3humphries@...> wrote:
>
> I read that stuff and genuinely wonder what we, as a Party, gain from engaging
in discussion of that sort? The people on those forums are either entrenched in
their own Party's line and / or views or just downright nuts from what I can
gather. The average working person reading such conversations would recoil in
horror, bewilderment and derision and rightly so. Am I alone in thinking most of
that 'discussion' as puerile and pointless?
>
> Would it not be better to concentrate trying to spread the message, the
positive message of replacing capitalism with socialism as we understand it,
rather than wasting hours and hours arguing about the finer points of what Lenin
had for breakfast in 1926 or what Marx may or may not have written about the
Gulf war had he been alive? I think this only serves to alienate potential
converts to the socialist cause, the main reason for our Party's existence as I
see it.
>
> Or maybe that's just me........
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


Hi David & Marcos.

I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree with you.  I have been a fairly active
participant on Revleft for a few years now and I can't say my experience tallies
with your account.  Like Marcos,  I am a member of quite a number of forums -
though not quite as many as he is on! - and I would not hesitate to say that, of
all of them,  Revleft stands out as by far the most productive in terms of
positive responses generated. This, even by comparison with highly reputable
forums like Libcom.

Dave (Chesham) mentioned that a participannt on Revleft came to the SPGB HO a
few days ago and expressed an interest in joining. I think that speaks volumes. 
There are quite a few people there on our non market anti-statist wavelength, so
to speak.  Lasst year I started up a group - for "genuine free access communism"
- which now has 75 members making it the fouth largest grouping on the site. 
Which brings me to Marcos comment - Revleft is NOT a movement. It doesnt have a
point of view on the WSM.  It is simply a forum in which many different views
are expreseed,  including views sympathetic to the WWM

Yes, there are quite a few discussions on Revleft that seem puerile and
pointless or overly preoccupied with highly arcane and obscure topics.  But
Revleft is a huge site - certainly by comparison with the WSM forum.  It has
numerous forums and there have been occasions when the number of current active
users on some of its more populat forums - like politics or opposing idelogies -
have reached figures  of 40 or 50.  Which means that for the site as a whole
there might possibly  be 200 or 300 people active at any one time (there is also
a chat facility which I have used)

Given the sheer numbers of people involved this means there are huge number of
topics covered, many of which would unquestionably be of interest to people on
this forum.  I just dont think you have given it a fair crack at the whip,
David.  You have been put off by one or two discussions without appreciating
that there is much much more being discussed.


While I can appreciate that people might want to stay within the comfort zone of
the WSM forum but, to be honest I think this is a recipe for stagnation not
growth.  You need a certain fire in your belly to make progress and to make
impression and the evidence seems to be that a persistant and cumulative
approach reaps benefits.

The great advantage of Revlet is that it is a target group of people who see
themselves as vaguely socialist but often without any clear understanding  of
what this entails or party affiliation as such. Sure, there are a fair
sprinkling of Leninists Trots and even Stalinists but most dont seem to be of
these persuasions.

Passing up on the opportunity to talk to them seems like a wasted opportunity to
me

Cheers

Robin

Tomorrow (16th) and Sunday (17th)

2011 Tolpuddle Martyrs' Festival and Rally  (from 9.00am)

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22813561/
http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22814031/


Next Wednesday, 20th July

"Another look at Marxism" (Glasgow)  8.30pm

“The recent economic crisis has led to a renewal in interest in the
ideas of Karl Marx. His 'Das Kapital' has recently had an upsurge in
sales in Germany. There has been an increase in press coverage and a
new book entitled 'Why Marx Was Right' by T.Eagleton. We take another
look at the Marxian ideas of The Materialist Conception of History and
The Labour Theory of Value.”

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/24262451/


Next Friday (22nd) to Sunday (24th)

Summer School (Birmingham)

Although residential places are now closed, those who wish to attend
the talks and social events are welcome to do so.

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052261/
http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052791/
http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052815/


Monday, 25th July

Discussion on Poverty  (Manchester)  8.30pm

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22176561/


Saturday, 30th July

"What is Socialism and How to Get There?" (Norwich)   2.00pm

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16834361/


For all other events and branch meetings please visit:-

http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/calendar/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/lets-talk-utopia/

"...The reality is that we on the left don’t ‘talk utopia’ nearly enough.
We
  need the attraction of a possible future as well as a revulsion at the
actual present. If people are to make the sacrifices required by any
struggle for social justice, then they need a bold and compelling idea
of the world they’re fighting for..."

The whole article makes interesting reading since we in the WSM are often
accused of the crime of "utopianism"

alan johnstone

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hullo all,

Fircroft now have more rooms available for the Summer School (due to another
group cancelling their booking for the same weekend). So, if you want to book,
there's still time (although it would make things easier if you let me know by
Tuesday!). Send an e-mail to spgbschool@...

thanks,

Mike


--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Dave Chesham <whichfinder@...> wrote:
>
> Tomorrow (16th) and Sunday (17th)
>
> 2011 Tolpuddle Martyrs' Festival and Rally  (from 9.00am)
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22813561/
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22814031/
>
>
> Next Wednesday, 20th July
>
> "Another look at Marxism" (Glasgow)  8.30pm
>
> "The recent economic crisis has led to a renewal in interest in the
> ideas of Karl Marx. His 'Das Kapital' has recently had an upsurge in
> sales in Germany. There has been an increase in press coverage and a
> new book entitled 'Why Marx Was Right' by T.Eagleton. We take another
> look at the Marxian ideas of The Materialist Conception of History and
> The Labour Theory of Value."
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/24262451/
>
>
> Next Friday (22nd) to Sunday (24th)
>
> Summer School (Birmingham)
>
> Although residential places are now closed, those who wish to attend
> the talks and social events are welcome to do so.
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052261/
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052791/
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052815/
>
>
> Monday, 25th July
>
> Discussion on Poverty  (Manchester)  8.30pm
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22176561/
>
>
> Saturday, 30th July
>
> "What is Socialism and How to Get There?" (Norwich)   2.00pm
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16834361/
>
>
> For all other events and branch meetings please visit:-
>
> http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/calendar/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The e-mail address should be spgbschool@...


--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <spgbschool@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hullo all,
>
> Fircroft now have more rooms available for the Summer School (due to another
group cancelling their booking for the same weekend). So, if you want to book,
there's still time (although it would make things easier if you let me know by
Tuesday!). Send an e-mail to spgbschool@...
>
> thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Dave Chesham <whichfinder@> wrote:
> >
> > Tomorrow (16th) and Sunday (17th)
> >
> > 2011 Tolpuddle Martyrs' Festival and Rally  (from 9.00am)
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22813561/
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22814031/
> >
> >
> > Next Wednesday, 20th July
> >
> > "Another look at Marxism" (Glasgow)  8.30pm
> >
> > "The recent economic crisis has led to a renewal in interest in the
> > ideas of Karl Marx. His 'Das Kapital' has recently had an upsurge in
> > sales in Germany. There has been an increase in press coverage and a
> > new book entitled 'Why Marx Was Right' by T.Eagleton. We take another
> > look at the Marxian ideas of The Materialist Conception of History and
> > The Labour Theory of Value."
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/24262451/
> >
> >
> > Next Friday (22nd) to Sunday (24th)
> >
> > Summer School (Birmingham)
> >
> > Although residential places are now closed, those who wish to attend
> > the talks and social events are welcome to do so.
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052261/
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052791/
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16052815/
> >
> >
> > Monday, 25th July
> >
> > Discussion on Poverty  (Manchester)  8.30pm
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/22176561/
> >
> >
> > Saturday, 30th July
> >
> > "What is Socialism and How to Get There?" (Norwich)   2.00pm
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/16834361/
> >
> >
> > For all other events and branch meetings please visit:-
> >
> > http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/calendar/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Dear all esp Alan,

1) It's tempting to write "Well ... look who came crawling back". The Left slag
us off so much for stepping beyond X+1, any attempt to recolonise land we've
been tilling for decades should be met with a swift kick in the unmentionables.

2) Communism is the negation of the negation - it is the actual movement that
abolishes the state of things. Negation of the negation is probably best
summarised by Marlon Brando's reply to 'what are you rebelling against?' 'What
have you got?' The negation is negation of ourselves as free men and women -
class society. Negation of the negation is rebellion against it, starting off
entirely within its terms e.g. unionism, or in previous eras, slave revolts, and
progressing to political movements. As I understand it, socialism - the stable
post-capitalist society - is then the transcendence in turn of this 'negation of
the negation' - a quantitative movement of opposition within capitalism when
sufficiently developed becomes qualitative, a demand for a different society.

But then, missing this point characterises the Left as an institution. Its ends
lie within the negation of the negation, not transcendence - they are about
fighting, not winning, the class war, and fetishise struggle for its own sake.
By keeping the debate within quantitative capitalist bounds, opposing capital to
the maximum while rejecting post-capitalist approaches, like a rugby scrum
advancing while keeping the ball in the scrum, they are the Puritans of
capitalism - the greatest quantitative opposition is generated to capitalist
rule while still being loyal to and not moving beyond its basic precepts,
describing qualitative thinking as Utopian.

When Marx spoke of this being communism, he meant that this was the *process* of
developing an opposition to capitalism, ranging from the crudest of communisms
to mature working class organisations that we are yet to see. He did not mean
that this, extended, in itself would be sufficient for a socialist society.

In other words, socialism as a mature society is the Left's blind spot
institutionally, due to their fetishisation of immediate struggle. When they
want to look at the revolution from the side of the post-capitalist society - 
Socialism - they will find not just us but many other non-Bolshevik
organisations have been doing this for over a century.

Regards,

Simon W.



Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:51:31 +0000
From: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Digest Number 5054



































World Socialist Movement Forum





       World Socialist Movement Forum


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                       1a.

    Utopia
   From:
       alan johnstone



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         1a.



         Utopia

     Posted by:      "alan johnstone"
       alanjjohnstone@...


           alanjjohnstone



       Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:14 am        (PDT)





       http://www.redpepper.org.uk/lets-talk-utopia/



"...The reality is that we on the left don’t ‘talk utopia’ nearly enough. We

  need the attraction of a possible future as well as a revulsion at the

actual present. If people are to make the sacrifices required by any

struggle for social justice, then they need a bold and compelling idea

of the world they’re fighting for..."



The whole article makes interesting reading since we in the WSM are often
accused of the crime of "utopianism"



alan johnstone



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Simon

Errr....

Ummm, yes, all of that!  Good man!

Putting this another way, perhaps: the left are so absorbed in their own
oppositional onanism that any thought of a classless society in which their
special identity evaporates is deeply disturbing to them.

The negation, in this sense, clearly doesn't want to be negated.

A clear case of interpenetration of errr....  well, maybe just interpenetration
in this instance.

Cheers

Richard

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, simon wigley <simonwigley@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear all esp Alan,
>
> 1) It's tempting to write "Well ... look who came crawling back". The Left
slag us off so much for stepping beyond X+1, any attempt to recolonise land
we've been tilling for decades should be met with a swift kick in the
unmentionables.
>
> 2) Communism is the negation of the negation - it is the actual movement that
abolishes the state of things. Negation of the negation is probably best
summarised by Marlon Brando's reply to 'what are you rebelling against?' 'What
have you got?' The negation is negation of ourselves as free men and women -
class society. Negation of the negation is rebellion against it, starting off
entirely within its terms e.g. unionism, or in previous eras, slave revolts, and
progressing to political movements. As I understand it, socialism - the stable
post-capitalist society - is then the transcendence in turn of this 'negation of
the negation' - a quantitative movement of opposition within capitalism when
sufficiently developed becomes qualitative, a demand for a different society.
>
> But then, missing this point characterises the Left as an institution. Its
ends lie within the negation of the negation, not transcendence - they are about
fighting, not winning, the class war, and fetishise struggle for its own sake.
By keeping the debate within quantitative capitalist bounds, opposing capital to
the maximum while rejecting post-capitalist approaches, like a rugby scrum
advancing while keeping the ball in the scrum, they are the Puritans of
capitalism - the greatest quantitative opposition is generated to capitalist
rule while still being loyal to and not moving beyond its basic precepts,
describing qualitative thinking as Utopian.
>
> When Marx spoke of this being communism, he meant that this was the *process*
of developing an opposition to capitalism, ranging from the crudest of
communisms to mature working class organisations that we are yet to see. He did
not mean that this, extended, in itself would be sufficient for a socialist
society.
>
> In other words, socialism as a mature society is the Left's blind spot
institutionally, due to their fetishisation of immediate struggle. When they
want to look at the revolution from the side of the post-capitalist society - 
Socialism - they will find not just us but many other non-Bolshevik
organisations have been doing this for over a century.
>
> Regards,
>
> Simon W.
>
>
>
> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:51:31 +0000
> From: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WSM_Forum] Digest Number 5054
>
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>     Messages In This Digest      (1
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>
>
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>
>                       1a.
>
>    Utopia
>   From:
>       alan johnstone
>
>
>
>           View All Topics | Create New Topic
>
>
>            Message
>
>
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>         1a.
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>
>
>         Utopia
>
>     Posted by:      "alan johnstone"
>       alanjjohnstone@...
>
>
>           alanjjohnstone
>
>
>
>       Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:14 am        (PDT)
>
>
>
>
>
>       http://www.redpepper.org.uk/lets-talk-utopia/
>
>
>
> "...The reality is that we on the left don't `talk utopia' nearly enough. We
>
>  need the attraction of a possible future as well as a revulsion at the
>
> actual present. If people are to make the sacrifices required by any
>
> struggle for social justice, then they need a bold and compelling idea
>
> of the world they're fighting for..."
>
>
>
> The whole article makes interesting reading since we in the WSM are often
accused of the crime of "utopianism"
>
>
>
> alan johnstone
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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At 03:11 AM 7/18/2011, you wrote:
>
>
><http://www.redpepper.org.uk/lets-talk-utopia/>http://www.redpepper.org.uk/lets\
-talk-utopia/
>
>"...The reality is that we on the left don’t
>‘talk utopia’ nearly enough. We
>need the attraction of a possible future as well as a revulsion at the
>actual present. If people are to make the sacrifices required by any
>struggle for social justice, then they need a bold and compelling idea
>of the world they’re fighting for..."
>
>The whole article makes interesting reading
>since we in the WSM are often accused of the crime of "utopianism"
>
>alan johnstone

Bonjour Alan,

Thanks.  It is an interesting article.  My
reaction to Utopia is a bit different than other
(comrade) posters.  I like to take utopia with a
bit of salt and a sniff of pepper.  Actually I
like to think of myself as working towards
utopia. I figure I can't do anything better with my life than that.

By coincidence, I have just had a visit from a
comrade who brought up her puzzlement at the SPGB
not distributing "Yes - Utopia!" by Ron Cook,
unhappily no longer alive.  She made the point
that it is a splendid book to introduce readers to socialist ideas.

Before Ron died I believe he had one thousand of
them printed. Does anyone know what happened to them?

I think "David Humphries" could well add that one
to his question in early June of what "Top five socialist books?" to read.

So why doesn't the SPGB carry it, or recommend
it?  Is it due to that silly exclusion clause
that if you are not a member we don't publish
your writings?  which excludes them from
distributing (as WSPUS did/does) Petr Kropotkin's "Mutual Aid".

Yours to incite a bit more World insight,     Trevor Goodger-Hill (non-WSM)

________________
you cannot hope to bribe or twist,
thank God! the British journalist.
But, seeing what the man will do
unbribed, there's no occasion to.

1885 - 1940     - Humbert Wolfe

Ironically enough on this issue we are probably closer the original Lenin that
the modern neo Leninists; as they are essentially economism-ists, who Lenin
criticised in `What is to be done'

Economism basically suggested that you just support the working class in their
trade union struggles and what not and that full socialist consciousness,
whatever that was, would just come along by itself later sort of thing.

He obviously bent the stick a bit too far for us by suggesting the need for a
professional workers party with a vanguardist intelligentsia as the only ones
that could understand things properly and to instruct the mass working class or
whatever.

We have actually been accused by economism-ists neo Leninist vanguardists on
Revleft for being vanguardist because we advocate `the ultimate aim of
socialism' and remorselessly banging on about theory.

Which is neo Leninists accusing us of retro Leninism.

However as struggling for socialism was not on the agenda in Russia then;
advocating just assisting the workers in trade union or economic struggles was
that much more acceptable.

The economists and Narodniks didn't consider putting an attractive `gloss on the
noose of capitalism' by advocating it, as a replacement of something worse and
less progressive ie Tsarist autocracy, a politically savvy recruitment winner
and a bit of a bummer.

Modern neo Leninist aren't that much different from Bernstein who said "the
ultimate aim of socialism means nothing to me".

I think there is a "reasonable" summary of economism below.


http://www.answers.com/topic/economism


The other trend that Lenin criticised, as the evil Liquidators, was entryism
into legal left wing-ish political parties as that was were the workers were at
etc.


--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <hud955@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon
>
> Errr....
>
> Ummm, yes, all of that!  Good man!
>
> Putting this another way, perhaps: the left are so absorbed in their own
oppositional onanism that any thought of a classless society in which their
special identity evaporates is deeply disturbing to them.
>
> The negation, in this sense, clearly doesn't want to be negated.
>
> A clear case of interpenetration of errr....  well, maybe just
interpenetration in this instance.
>
> Cheers
>
> Richard
>
> --- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, simon wigley <simonwigley@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear all esp Alan,
> >
> > 1) It's tempting to write "Well ... look who came crawling back". The Left
slag us off so much for stepping beyond X+1, any attempt to recolonise land
we've been tilling for decades should be met with a swift kick in the
unmentionables.
> >
> > 2) Communism is the negation of the negation - it is the actual movement
that abolishes the state of things. Negation of the negation is probably best
summarised by Marlon Brando's reply to 'what are you rebelling against?' 'What
have you got?' The negation is negation of ourselves as free men and women -
class society. Negation of the negation is rebellion against it, starting off
entirely within its terms e.g. unionism, or in previous eras, slave revolts, and
progressing to political movements. As I understand it, socialism - the stable
post-capitalist society - is then the transcendence in turn of this 'negation of
the negation' - a quantitative movement of opposition within capitalism when
sufficiently developed becomes qualitative, a demand for a different society.
> >
> > But then, missing this point characterises the Left as an institution. Its
ends lie within the negation of the negation, not transcendence - they are about
fighting, not winning, the class war, and fetishise struggle for its own sake.
By keeping the debate within quantitative capitalist bounds, opposing capital to
the maximum while rejecting post-capitalist approaches, like a rugby scrum
advancing while keeping the ball in the scrum, they are the Puritans of
capitalism - the greatest quantitative opposition is generated to capitalist
rule while still being loyal to and not moving beyond its basic precepts,
describing qualitative thinking as Utopian.
> >
> > When Marx spoke of this being communism, he meant that this was the
*process* of developing an opposition to capitalism, ranging from the crudest of
communisms to mature working class organisations that we are yet to see. He did
not mean that this, extended, in itself would be sufficient for a socialist
society.
> >
> > In other words, socialism as a mature society is the Left's blind spot
institutionally, due to their fetishisation of immediate struggle. When they
want to look at the revolution from the side of the post-capitalist society - 
Socialism - they will find not just us but many other non-Bolshevik
organisations have been doing this for over a century.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Simon W.
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:51:31 +0000
> > From: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [WSM_Forum] Digest Number 5054
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

i have raised the issue of the lack of promotion for members independently
published books before in the past and HO does hold a small stock of those. We
could do better.

Edinburgh branch when it holds a lit sales usually has Ron's book on the table
as well as others.

alan johnstone

--- On Tue, 19/7/11, Citizens of the World <iwi@...> wrote:

From: Citizens of the World <iwi@...>
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Utopia - a "top five" book
To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 19 July, 2011, 13:13
















 





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i wonder if someone can explain to me something concerning the present uproar
about the newspapers phone hacking.

 I have not heard one criticism of the mobile telephone industry that sold us
all these mobiles without any warning that there were security concerns about
others with the capability of accessing them. Nothing in the packaging or
instructions of any that i bought, or the companies i had contracts with for
coverage. If it was computers we would see and do see outrage that for instance
Google or whatever gets hacked and they take measures to tighten up their
security. What is the case with the phones? Why have we not had apologies from
them? Do they escape all responsibility? How easy is it today to hack into
phones? I have no idea, can someone tell me.

paranoid
alan johnstone

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Ron's book is always available at head office, surely? And I always make sure
there are copies available at the Birmingham summer school, which Ron also put a
lot of work into.

Mike



--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, alan johnstone <alanjjohnstone@...> wrote:
>
> i have raised the issue of the lack of promotion for members independently
published books before in the past and HO does hold a small stock of those. We
could do better.
>
> Edinburgh branch when it holds a lit sales usually has Ron's book on the table
as well as others.
>
> alan johnstone
>
> --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Citizens of the World <iwi@...> wrote:
>
> From: Citizens of the World <iwi@...>
> Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Utopia - a "top five" book
> To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 19 July, 2011, 13:13
>
>
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My proposal is now at the voting stage and doing surprisingly well.  Check it
out at: https://jolitics.com/p/post/1487/

--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Howes (vegan)" <robertcircle1@...> wrote:
>
> I have put the Socialist Party case on Jolitics.  Why not get in on the
discussion and voting.  You might pick up a few new members.  It is democratic
so get involved if you want to speak to the workers.
>
> https://jolitics.com/p/post/1487/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
> ***
>

I am sure it is still on the shelves, Mike, i never meant to say it wasn't but i
think it is a matter of little advertising or promotion. A one-off review in the
Socialist Standard seems to be the par for the course.

 And it is not simply a problem with just Ron's books, but stuff by Stan
Parker, Richard Montague, Ken Smith, Dave Perrin, Peter Newell, Pieter Lawrence
are not listed or available on our website or in the Standard. Yes some are now
dated and some possess perhaps their authors idiosyncrasies but that could be
qualified by ourselves.

I think we could put aside a budget to re-issue Dave's history of the SPGB since
i think many of our remaining copies in HO are damaged. Perhaps ask that he does
a new preface and the party does an introduction  and make it an official party
publication or E-book . We could take over responsibilty for the private
printing or publishing on the web of other members books if they agree which i
am sure most would. William Morris Society published a book on News from Nowhere
with chapter by Adam Buick that i think could stand alone. I am certain members
can add to the list.

We could have a recommended reading list (with appropriate disclaimers) for
those works by members or sympathisers, in fact we should not be too averse to
listing and publicising books by non-members that agree with the party case. My
first knowledge of Kropotkin's Mutual Aid came from the WSPUS Western Socialist
where it was sold by mail-order. 

alan johnstone

--- On Wed, 20/7/11, mikefosterbrum <brummikewfoster@...> wrote:

From: mikefosterbrum <brummikewfoster@...>
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Utopia - a "top five" book
To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 20 July, 2011, 7:22
















 











Hi,



Ron's book is always available at head office, surely? And I always make sure
there are copies available at the Birmingham summer school, which Ron also put a
lot of work into.



Mike



--- In WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com, alan johnstone <alanjjohnstone@...> wrote:

>

> i have raised the issue of the lack of promotion for members independently
published books before in the past and HO does hold a small stock of those. We
could do better.

>

> Edinburgh branch when it holds a lit sales usually has Ron's book on the table
as well as others.

>

> alan johnstone

>

> --- On Tue, 19/7/11, Citizens of the World <iwi@...> wrote:

>

> From: Citizens of the World <iwi@...>

> Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Utopia - a "top five" book

> To: WSM_Forum@yahoogroups.com

> Date: Tuesday, 19 July, 2011, 13:13

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