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Reply | Forward Message #301 of 997 |
Hi,

After years of being frustrated by new grads' inability to build
product-quality software, I took a faculty position at the University
of Toronto last year to try to figure out what could be done about it.
I'm now convinced that if we want things to change, we have to think
about scaling *down* our tools and techniques to fit novices' heads.
In particular, any tool that can't be learned in a one-hour tutorial,
or that doesn't pay its way in the first assignment it's used on, will
be put in the same bin as UML and point-form requirements specs [1].

We're now using a fork of Trac called DrProject [2] to see how simple
developer-oriented groupware has to be to meet these conditions. Like
every other web-based project portal I know of [3], it doesn't provide
any integrated support for organizing and executing tests [4]. I'd like
to know what the participants in this list think can and should be
added. Should we hook into a continuous integration tool like
CruiseControl and just report results of builds and unit tests? Should
we integrate something like FitNesse, so that people can add and run
tests through the web? I already know that students will only use wiki
page templates for test plans if they're forced to (i.e., they'll only
do it when it's worth a grade, and will stop as soon as it isn't).

Here are a few constraints:

- Must be comprehensible to a second-year Computer Science major who's
running a C+ average after a one-hour tutorial.

- Must make students who are time-slicing assignments from four or five
courses more productive within one month of adoption (i.e., after five
to ten hours of use spread over two weeks).

- Must be platform-neutral (some courses uses Java, others use Python or
C, and of course there's the Windows/Linux/Mac issue).

- Must be useful in courses other than the one where it's taught (i.e.,
databases, compilers, graphics, etc.). This is actually our measure
of success: after introducing version control in second year, we see a
lot of students setting it up and using it in third- and fourth-year
courses without being told to.

- Must be (relatively) process neutral: I believe a good solution would
be as usable in RUP as in XP (just as version control and unit testing
are).

All comments welcome...

Thanks,
Greg Wilson
http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~gvwilson

[1] The one labeled "hoops they make us jump through for no good
reason".

[2] http://www.drproject.org

[3] http://pyre.third-bit.com/blog/archives/1487.html

[4] To clarify, I mean "support for testing the projects whose
development is being managed with DrProject", rather than
"support for testing DrProject itself".



Tue May 6, 2008 1:48 pm

gregory_v_wi...
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Forward
Message #301 of 997 |
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Hi, After years of being frustrated by new grads' inability to build product-quality software, I took a faculty position at the University of Toronto last year...
Greg Wilson
gregory_v_wi...
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May 6, 2008
1:48 pm

I'm not sure product-quality code should be the goal of an undergraduate education. We have a tradition of asking people to write programs so as to learn about...
Ward Cunningham
ward@...
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May 6, 2008
2:27 pm

Hi, Ward, I'm not clear what you mean by "the idea of product-quality seems to be very deep and distributed". Can you explain a bit more? Thanks, David...
David Peterson
dpeterson72
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May 6, 2008
2:33 pm

David -- I learned lots in school. Most of what we consider traditional computer science was still fresh then and it was fun to see order form over the obvious...
Ward Cunningham
ward@...
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May 9, 2008
3:26 pm

If you're looking at FitNesse, you might also look at Concordion ( http://www.concordion.org). It seems to meet most of your criteria except for being...
David Peterson
dpeterson72
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May 6, 2008
2:28 pm

Greg - Toronto? You've got a good software test community up there. If I recall correctly, Michael Bolton and Adam Goucher are up that way, yes? You could...
heusserm
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May 7, 2008
12:12 pm

Speaking for Greg (always a dangerous thing; but I'm pretty confident in the answers) ... He knows us both. :) (I worked with him for a number of years) ... ...
adam goucher
adam_goucher2
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May 7, 2008
1:25 pm

... I worked with Adam for several years; he's the one who suggested I ask the list :-) ... Our students all learn JUnit; I'm wondering what could be added to ...
Greg Wilson
gregory_v_wi...
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May 7, 2008
3:38 pm

... I have had zero success finding "one test tool to rule them all; one test tool to bind them." Worksoft Certify is a keyword driven test tool that will...
heusserm
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May 8, 2008
12:14 pm

... I'm not sure what I want --- I know that having nothing in a portal to help with QA is not helpful (kind of a tautology, that :-), and ... I didn't know...
Greg Wilson
gregory_v_wi...
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May 8, 2008
12:25 pm

Greg, I've already posted to this list asking about the new thoughtworks tool, which is called twist. http://studios.thoughtworks.com/twist It will be based...
erik petersen
wvole
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May 7, 2008
1:04 pm

... It looks interesting, but is it purely for GUI applications? Again, I'm wondering what should be integrated into a portal to help manage (track, execute,...
Greg Wilson
gregory_v_wi...
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May 7, 2008
3:47 pm
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