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Transitioning into Agile: QA's Role   Message List  
Reply Message #13114 of 21015 |
RE: [agile-testing] Transitioning into Agile: QA's Role

Hi, Michael W:

>I've got a bit of a quandry. I'm an Agile/Xp enthusiast moving in to a
coaching role. One of the issues I keep running up against when working
with teams is how QA can handle the transition.

One important step is to stop thinking about testers as "QA" -- unless the A
stands for "assistance" or even "analysis", but not "assurance". We're
testers. Management (in one sense) and the whole team (in another) provides
the "assurance" bit, but since we don't have control over schedule, budget,
staffing, project scope, contractual obligations, customer relations, etc.,
etc., we can't assure anything. We should be here to help--not to slow the
project down, but to aid in the discovery of things that will threaten
value.

I shiver when I hear the words "up-front" -- which are forever linked to
"big design" in my head. I also shiver when I hear "acceptance criteria"
mentioned, since the question of /whose/ acceptance is often begged, and
acceptance /for what/ is also unclear. "Acceptance criteria" for me has a
strong whiff of "negotiated contracts" and "following a plan", where the
essence of agile to me has always been "customer collaboration" and
"responding to change".

So one big role for testers--maybe the biggest, in my view--is to promote
the discovery of things that have not been anticipated by the contract and
the plan, and that may require change and collaboration to sort out. That's
an ongoing process. Discovery can't be scheduled. Investigation can, to
some degree, but it doesn't stop just because the end of the iteration has
been reached. It doesn't stop until the product is shipped.

One of the biggest issues I see with transitioning to agile is that the
development teams have historically seen testing as task set ("write down
this and this and this and this; confirm this and this and this and this"),
and not a mind set ("/is there a problem here?/"). The testers themselves
are often locked on to this notion more than anyone. Most of the /tasks/
can be done by practically anyone on the team. Confirmation is relatively
straightforward. If there aren't enough testers to do X, Y, and Z, someone
else will have to do them, or you'll have to get more people to do them, or
you'll have to wait. The latter two are probably less acceptable than the
first, so the mindset that has to get fixed here is that only the testers do
this kind of testing. (That was a factor how XP got started, if I
understand the history correctly; Programmers and Customers would take more,
much more, responsibility for this kind of confirmatory testing, more easily
done by machines that are directed by skilled programmers who get the
benefit of immediate feedback into the bargain.)

Investigation is different. Investigation involves probing the product to
reveal /new/ information; asking and answering questions about known
unknowns, and moving them into the space of the known; and recognizing
hitherto unknown unknowns, and moving them into the space of known unknowns.
Consider it as the antidote to "Mission Accomplished"-style thinking.

Note, by the way, that not all traditional testers are going to be able to
do this kind of work, since traditional testing and early thinking about
agile testing bludgeoned many testers into believing that confirmation was
all there was to it.

One last thing: when we call it "manual testing", note that the only thing
manual about it is the input mechanism. James Bach uses the term "sapient
testing" (See http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/99; the discussion that
follows in the comments is important too.) I don't like the term much but I
can't find a better word for it. Sapient testing is what humans think and
do, and is fundamentally and by definition not automatable. Sapient
processes can be aided by tools, but not replaced by them.

And, uh, one MORE last thing: have a look at the recent discussions on
"test-first development" (different from the TDD sense) in the
software-testing mailing list for some insight into the "acceptance
criteria" problem.

---Michael B.

________________________________

From: agile-testing@yahoogroups.com [mailto:agile-testing@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Wilson, Michael
Sent: February 4, 2008 11:55 AM
To: agile-testing@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [agile-testing] Transitioning into Agile: QA's Role




There's an abundance of literature and (dare I say it) Agile doctrine on
their role once a team is running all nice and agilifically. But repeatedly
during discussions hallway and formal QA people are left with this feeling
that we're patting them on the head and asking them to do the double work of
their manual testing while adding up-front acceptance criteria and test
formulation to their role.

QA already gets pulled too thin and watching them sigh in justifiable
resignation that their workload's going to increase is a bit disheartening.

I'd be interested in thoughts on easing the pain here.


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Mon Feb 4, 2008 7:34 pm

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Message #13114 of 21015 |
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Hi Janet ... I would be interested in you outlining this framework, if possible? Aidy...
aidy lewis
aidy1us Offline Send Email
Feb 6, 2008
1:00 pm

... coaching role. One of the issues I keep running up against when working with teams is how QA can handle the transition. One important step is to stop...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
7:34 pm

... That is such a beautiful paragraph, I'm printing it out and putting it on the outside of my cube right now. Todd....
Bradley, Todd
todd404 Offline Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
8:18 pm

I agree 100% as well. I have been trying to eliminate QA from people's vocabulary altogether, but it is tougher than I thought it would be. Most time people...
Janet Gregory
janetgregoryca Offline Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
9:26 pm

It's a tough nut to crack everywhere, Janet. I've been trying to transition the vocabulary where I work for 6 years now. I was hired as the "QA Manager" but...
Bradley, Todd
todd404 Offline Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
10:22 pm

I've kind of given up the fight against "QA", it's just an acronym, I don't think it really means "quality assurance" anymore to most people, it means ...
Lisa Crispin
lisa_crispin... Offline Send Email
Feb 5, 2008
3:35 am

For me: QA = Quality Assurance = Bug prevention QC = Quality Control = Bug catching So in thoery, QA is the 'higher' goal But I agree, I see myself and my team...
Coyle, Jim
jim.coyle@... Send Email
Feb 6, 2008
8:03 pm

... I guess most college will teach student like this. However, like software design and coding, is it really good to separate QA and QC into 2 difference...
Carfield Yim
c8133594 Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
4:35 am

Hmm. Good question! For years the testing/QA 'movement' has pushed for separation of responsibility, taking a quality control stance (validate production...
John Overbaugh
john.overbaugh@... Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
3:52 pm

... If you are not getting involved in the planning game (i.e., discussing the requirements with developers and customers and estimating their complexity along...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
4:06 pm

... responsibility, taking a quality control stance (validate production quality in a process separate from the actual production process - independent ...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
6:20 pm

... It's important not to confuse "goal" with "role"....
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
5:15 am

... True... thanks a lot for reminding...
Carfield Yim
c8133594 Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
5:23 am

Too often I have heard "the quality of this application is bad, the testers they had for this must have been useless." The quality of an application is not...
Kristan Vingrys
kvingrys Offline Send Email
Feb 7, 2008
4:06 pm

Michael B.:>> One important step is to stop thinking about testers as "QA" ... Todd:>That is such a beautiful paragraph, I'm printing it out and putting it on...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Feb 5, 2008
3:53 pm

I have an automated test (junit / selenium-rc) which is driven entirely based upon what is in the database. It will happily execute 1 time in an run or 1000...
adam goucher
adam_goucher2 Offline Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
2:33 pm

Adam, what's the state which triggers the number of times to run? Is it a variable you decide, or is it based on something it finds in the db? ... -- John...
John Overbaugh
john.overbaugh@... Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
5:28 pm

We have a Watir suite that contains a couple of scripts that between them can do a few hundred different combinations of options. This takes a couple of hours...
Lisa Crispin
lisa_crispin... Offline Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
6:36 pm

It is entirely something I decide. The application just displays information found in the database so an exhaustive test isnt really necessary, but there is...
adam goucher
adam_goucher2 Offline Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
6:06 pm

I may well be missing something (like the randomness of data), but I'd strive to equivalence class the data and tune my query to pull from the equ class. For...
John Overbaugh
john.overbaugh@... Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
6:47 pm

I doubt any amount would increase the defect rate, which I expect to be around 0% in this particular chunk of code (unless the schema changes at which point we...
adam goucher
adam_goucher2 Offline Send Email
Feb 11, 2008
7:01 pm

Hello, Michael. On Monday, February 4, 2008, at 11:54:43 AM, you ... Where did you get the impression that QA has the sole responsibility for up front...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
7:36 pm

Hi Michael, For myself, there are a couple of lessons that teams often have to learn about the role of testers in general. A move to agile simply exposes ...
Bruce Rennie
bjrennie2000 Online Now Send Email
Feb 4, 2008
9:13 pm

Hello, Bruce. On Monday, February 4, 2008, at 4:12:24 PM, you ... Very. One of my favorite posts here in a long long time. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com ...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Feb 5, 2008
3:13 am

I've been following this whole thread and there is a lot of good stuff in the replies, I thought I would share another example of how we approached it at my...
Jake Delman
sl_jake_qa Offline Send Email
Feb 5, 2008
9:15 pm
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