Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
agile-testing · Agile Software Testing

Group Information

  • Members: 4025
  • Category: Testing
  • Founded: Nov 1, 2001
  • Language: English
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Real people. Real stories. See how Yahoo! Groups impacts members worldwide.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Assimilation Bias   Message List  
Reply Message #16540 of 20846 |
Re: [agile-testing] Re: Example 2: Understanding Reification Error can be helpful

Discussing the requirements and expectations with customers,
developers and other stakeholders is a testing activity, but surely
such discussion is not a test. Yet, such a discussion could potential
retrieve critical information about the product.

Thinking about how to create a test of some feature or component is a
testing activity, but surely thinking is not a test. I suppose
thinking is not likely to retrieve information about the product, but
it might reorganize information previously retrieved into a more
useful form.

In agile software development, for the acceptance criteria of each
iteration to be that exploratory testing reveals no defects is a
moving target that make iterative development much more difficult
without any benefit to the final delivery. Every defect that
exploratory testing finds should either indicate missing tests for the
agreed upon acceptance criteria of the iteration (in which case add
those tests) or missing requirements (in which case, add the
requirements to the backlog).

From this point of view exploratory testing does not discover defects
in a work in progress, it discovers discrepancies between where we
think the project is and where it really is. Those discrepancies are
then addressed as missing tests or missing requirements.

After we think the project is really completed, then those
discrepancies would be defects of the software, but not while we think
the software is a work in progress.

If you are attempting to do "agile testing" for a non-agile project,
then perhaps the traditional definitions hold.

Steve

On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Joao Rodrigues
<joao.rodrigues@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In agile-testing@yahoogroups.com, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
> ....
>
>> In the context of
>> software development, exploratory testing does not test software.
>
> It surely does. Exploratory testing is not an example, it is not a Test Case
> or a Test Idea per se, but it is part of testing activity, because it
> actually tests the software. It retrieves (or has the capability to
> retrieve) useful information about the product.
>
> You might think this is just an irrelevant language detail, but it is
> interesting to notice how developers tend to neglect details like this,
> while testers tend to overestimate the details. Often bugs are born on
> details...
>
> Joao Rodrigues
>



Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:23 pm

sfman2k
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Message #16540 of 20846 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

... It surely does. Exploratory testing is not an example, it is not a Test Case or a Test Idea per se, but it is part of testing activity, because it actually...
Joao Rodrigues
jonasfixe Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2009
6:38 pm

Discussing the requirements and expectations with customers, developers and other stakeholders is a testing activity, but surely such discussion is not a test....
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2009
7:46 pm

Steven, I'm getting the sense that you have a specific definition of both "testing" and "test", and that they differ from the ones Michael cited. Can you spell...
Jeff Fry
nothingbutjeff Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
1:20 am

I think I more or less agree with Michael about "testing" - it is a wide ranging activity that should be involved with every aspect of software development. I...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
3:59 am

... activity. It has well-defined steps that can be executed/followed and consistently result in success or failure no matter who or what is ...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
3:50 pm

... insists that exploratory testing is by some definition a "test". I believe that saying so creates unnecessary and potentially dangerous confusion in the...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2009
7:36 pm

Hello, Michael. On Monday, March 23, 2009, at 3:13:36 PM, you ... Nice ... ... Sounds like someone who doesn't really get what that bar does. That's OK, tho. ...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2009
8:49 pm

Agreeing that all of this (and more) constitutes testing does not necessarily mean that every thing done under the umbrella of testing is a test. In my...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 23, 2009
11:32 pm

I am glad we all have a common ground about what testing activity is about. I think that some of us are pushing into an abstraction direction, while others...
Joao Rodrigues
jonasfixe Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
10:55 am

... necessarily mean that every thing done under the umbrella of testing is a test. ... an example of a reification error. Yes. So why are you persisting in...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
3:24 pm

... Because, when asked when is a test not an example, the response was the equivalent of "when a test is testing", and then when that notion was challenged,...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
6:22 pm

I'm afraid this thread has gone to plaid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP6DXoNKITc --heusser...
heusserm Offline Send Email Mar 24, 2009
8:36 pm

... This is all my fault. I pointed out that the use of "example" in the discussion was a confusion of a label with its object. Since then there has been even...
Michael Kernaghan
fiscalspasm Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
9:12 pm

Hello, Steven. On Tuesday, March 24, 2009, at 12:42:23 PM, you ... Which assertion, by the way, requires mind-reading. It is, in addition, arguably rude to...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
10:54 pm

... addition, arguably rude to call someone else's phrasing an "error", when in fact it actually communicates fairly well. ... questions when someone uses an...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
1:30 pm

Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, March 25, 2009, at 9:27:16 AM, you ... I'd call it a test. ... Just fine, AFAICS. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com ...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
1:41 pm

Michael:> I quote: "But to call contractual obligations "tests" leaves us with a ... Ron:> I'd call it a test. Excellent. I had hoped you would answer that...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
5:55 pm

... Michael, Ron and I happen to disagree on this. I still believe that calling every interaction a tester has with the software a test muddles the ability of...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
7:52 pm

Hello, Steven. On Wednesday, March 25, 2009, at 2:29:19 PM, you ... I'm not clear on what you WOULD call them. I'd use the recently-invented concept of...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
8:00 pm

... recently-invented concept of adjectives if I needed to distinguish. For example, "exploratory test", "automated customer test", "automated programmer...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
8:47 pm

Hello, Michael. On Wednesday, March 25, 2009, at 4:45:07 PM, you ... Could do. But I really hold out little hope for redefining a bunch of terminology. People...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
9:12 pm

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ron Jeffries ... I also could do. Also, the use of test in test-driven design/development confuses many people. I never say...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 25, 2009
9:22 pm

Michael:>> ..."tests" /reveal information/, and completion criteria /identify ... Ron:> Could do. But I really hold out little hope for redefining a bunch of...
Michael Bolton
michael_a_bo... Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2009
4:44 pm

Hello, Michael. On Thursday, March 26, 2009, at 12:43:36 PM, you ... I try always to use terms that communicate effectively. As such I'm open to anything...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2009
4:57 pm

... In some of the circles I run in, we take the idea that you should do 100% TDD - that is - to predict /all/ tests up front, and if you didn't predict it,...
heusserm Offline Send Email Mar 26, 2009
12:12 pm

Hello, Matt. ... I take the statement above to be the one you are refuting. As such, if I understand you, you are coming out in favor of a reactive approach,...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries Offline Send Email
Mar 26, 2009
2:31 pm

... Ron, Three days ago, on this list, you referred to using the term reification error as something like "having lights and signals and red lasers coming out...
heusserm Offline Send Email Mar 26, 2009
5:54 pm

... -- All the best, Heba Hosny ... Never test the depth of a river with both feet...
Heba Hosny
heba_hosny Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
11:31 am

... If you can be certain that the weight you give to those measures matches the expectations of the people who will actually use your software - for certain -...
heusserm Offline Send Email Mar 24, 2009
2:20 pm

... Normalizing N metrics to a number between 0 and 1, multiplying them and then taking the Nth-root would be represent the information more appropriately than...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k Offline Send Email
Mar 24, 2009
3:49 pm
 First  |  |  Next > Last 
Advanced

Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines NEW - Help