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More considerations for not automating   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #82 of 18243 |
Some other reasons for low automation takeup.
1) The software is expensive, typically too expensive for a single project
to afford
2) It does take longer to automate. If the testing project timeframe is
tight, then automation can be eliminated immediately.
3 Automation paradox: Any rapid development may never be stable enough to
justify the time to automate it, until later releases. The cost of
automation and time required may prevent it being done in a later release,
especially if the life of the product being tested is uncertain.
4) Any automation is a complex mini-project that comes with a risk of
failure. If a test or project manager has to guarantee a tested product, it
is safer (and faster) to go the manual road.

One of the solutions is the one raised already by Erik Meade, "Add
an acceptance testing task to every story". Give a healthy estimate for it,
and argue that it is the only sensible way for a customer to ensure that
they can check that their app works over time, with the cost effectiveness
coming in the long term.
I would argue that the automation team needs to be a closely managed
sub-project, with staff dedicated just to the automation. with a good
people-person manager to liase with the customers. It is too easy for a
developer to decide that their priorities lie in polishing the automation
programming, rather than working on the real app, or for a tester to decide
that they will learn to program by overworking the automation.
cheers,
Erik

Software Testing Consultant
ANZ Banking Group
Australia


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Crispin [mailto:lisa.crispin@...]
> Sent: 09 November 2001 05:28
> To: agile-testing@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [agile-testing] Re: testing non-web GUI
>
>
> My experience is like Ron's in that many organizations I'm familiar
> with do not automate at all, or very little, possibly for
> load testing
> and nothing else. This includes organizations who say they are doing
> XP. Some potential reason:
>
> 1. A lot of testers do not have a programming backround so it can be
> difficult for them to learn how to create automated test scripts and
> they have a lot of fear about it.
> 2. Capture/playback tools alone don't help, see 1.
> 3. Lack of support from management and even from development: "just
> get the testing done so we can launch". This is worst when you have
> testing on the "back end".
> 4. Lack of understanding of the value of automating tests other than
> unit tests, even among developers on XP projects.
>
> Some things that can be done about it (although I admit to struggling
> in this area myself):
> 1. Put testers and developers on one team
> 2. Make the whole team responsible for executing and for automating
> acceptance tests
> 3. For each release, if you have any automated tests at all,
> document
> as best you can what value they added (time saved, bugs found)
> 4. The getting support from management and development one is hard,
> but find someone who sees the value of test automation and
> get them to
> help champion the cause
>
> Other suggestions? Because these are working some for me, but
> sometimes I get discouraged fighting the same battles all the time.
> -- Lisa
>
<snip>
> > I might mention that in the projects I visit, even the ones that
> have
> > large and presumably competent QA departments, few (usually zero)
> > tests are automated. That seems to be very much the wrong proportion
> > to me. What do folks here think?
> >
> > What is the cost of automating a test that doesn't need it? What is
> > the cost of NOT automating a test that DOES need it?
> >
> > Ron Jeffries
> > www.XProgramming.com
> > Life tough is. Then die you do. --Yoda (personal communication)
>



Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:32 am

PETERSEE@...
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Message #82 of 18243 |
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Some other reasons for low automation takeup. 1) The software is expensive, typically too expensive for a single project to afford 2) It does take longer to...
Petersen, Erik
PETERSEE@...
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Nov 14, 2001
5:32 am

... Since I have been causing gastric disturbances on at least two lists this week, I figure I am on a roll, so here goes: Writing testing code, and testing...
wecaputo@...
logosity
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Nov 14, 2001
6:07 am

... effort, ... steer their ... We gain a much higher quality product. I have done "XP" projects both ways, and the way Bill describes works a whole lot...
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
5:56 pm

... I'd agree on the principal. ... Why does one separate things out in separate teams? Know that is a universal question if there has ever been one. Size of...
STEURS Stefan
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Nov 14, 2001
7:15 am

... Separate teams are rarely if ever faster, and rarely more efficient than integrated teams made up of people of equivalent skills. Ron Jeffries ...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
9:50 am

... I'll answer these as if Erik thinks the questions are valid. I suspect he is just reporting reasons that people give, not reasons that he personally...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
9:18 am

... Give me an example of a tool that allows to write tests at the GUI interface level, that supports a wide variety of programming languages and 4th ...
STEURS Stefan
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Nov 14, 2001
12:52 pm

... I don't know of one. And we don't need all that to write effective ... Don't write many tests at the GUI level: keep the GUI very thin so that these can be...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
1:50 pm

... Right. Customers, in my model, must define tests. If tools are available, they can type them in. Most testing, in my experience, can be done with rather...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
1:52 pm

... I've never seen a case where doing good testing was harder than doing the programming that needed it. I've seen cases where people MADE it hard, and many...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
1:53 pm

... reason, then ... doing ... Short releases aren't any harder for test automation than longer ones, because there is less to test....
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
6:30 pm

... It certainly can be done incrementally. It can also be done simply. ... Untrue. The agile methods (and all the incremental methods) show that software...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
1:56 pm

... I'd be interested. I know a lot about automation, but would like to learn the XP perspective on it. Bret ...
Bret Pettichord
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Nov 14, 2001
4:37 pm

... Since I'm at an Immersion now, I've already raised the issue with the [other?] Powers. We'll see if we can figure out something that would be useful and...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
6:40 pm

... HEY! HEY! Let's not make generalizations about testers here! Many of us are out here automating, thank you very much! We are just continually looking...
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
6:32 pm

... I'm not generalizing about testers. I'm observing that there are lots of testers who think automation is really hard, and that therefore there might be a...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
7:02 pm

... Many ... looks ... lots ... about ... You are making me laugh so much I am starting to snort. My coworkers believe the bugs have put me around the bend....
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
7:13 pm

... Actually I was thinking of asking you to help teach it ... Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Accroches-toi a ton reve. --ELO...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
8:21 pm

... coworkers ... there ... get ... I would love to! -- Lisa...
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 15, 2001
6:23 pm

Small teams of a couple of persons rarely do very big projects of hundreths of manyears. They are rarely involved in safety or mission critical projects. When...
STEURS Stefan
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Nov 14, 2001
1:20 pm

... According to Jim Highsmith, something like 80% of all software projects are done with fewer than 20 people. ... No one suggested it was. ... Yes, you...
Ron Jeffries
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Nov 14, 2001
2:55 pm

... hundreths ... It's dangerous to make this kind of blanket statement. What are you basing this on? There are some giant companies, some in the telecom ...
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
6:24 pm

If you have appropriate lightweight test tools and framework, I think it is always feasible to automate testing at least the major functionality for any...
Lisa Crispin
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Nov 14, 2001
5:49 pm

... So? 80% of the work is done in 20% of the time but it still doesn't mean that if you cut your scope to 80% that you implement software 5 times as fast. ...
STEURS Stefan
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Nov 15, 2001
6:30 am

I'm trying to understand how. Making the transition isn't easy but I'm sure that we need more scalability in XP to make it more apt to deal with different...
STEURS Stefan
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Nov 15, 2001
6:39 am
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