... worthwhile ... Some background information: The manager has been laid off because for the last several projects we delivered too late, with too less...
Summary: Looking for other people's experience working with both programmer tests and also customer tests that are written before the programmer tests. How are...
... Purpose. Customer tests assure the customer that he got what he asked for, and that it didn't break later. Programmer tests assure the programmer that he...
Here's my experience, for what it's worth: On my XP projects, I or an analyst would take the first cut at writing the acceptance tests. We'd try to think...
1499
STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 25, 2002 6:21 am
... One thing I lack in this is a description of the context. What kind of application are we talking about? Are we talking about embedded software or a PC...
1500
Jamie.Hosley@...
Jun 25, 2002 6:23 am
I will be out of the office starting 06/24/2002 and will not return until 07/01/2002....
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Bret Pettichord
bret@...
Jun 25, 2002 4:49 pm
... Whenever i see "a perfect set of tests" my buzzer goes off. Testing, by its nature is fundamentally imperfect. There are always more good tests you could...
... The first version of the app is a timeclock application to keep track of my time and do billing kinds of things. It's organized as a client and a server...
... Let me give an example of what I've done. (More response later.) For a while, the program did not save state between sessions. Here's one of the two tests...
... Could you go into more detail about this? I got the impression from earlier text that the customer tests came first. This suggests they came after the...
... Yes. But we still know what perfect is, and shoot for it. ... Found, perhaps. But there is always [at least] one wrong line of code somewhere. That line of...
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Bret Pettichord
bret@...
Jun 26, 2002 5:17 am
... There was a recent bug in a NASA project that caused a spacecraft to crash. The problem was with the communication between two software components produced...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 5:32 am
All, I would even like to add that System level testing is not the last step of integration. You also have integration testing between applications. Think in...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 5:44 am
... Well, this is not the world as we know it Ron. If someone tells me what the bug is I can usually think of a test to trigger it as well. Usually all you...
... I'm not against system testing. I'm suggesting that, at least post-hoc, we can see a programmer test that can show the defect. Further, XP programmer tests...
... Yes. A not uncommon XP mistake is to fall in love with Mock Objects and test all your classes completely independently. Programmer tests that work like...
... That was my point. The context you snipped was a question about programmer tests vs system tests in XP. My point was that when a system-ish test fails, you...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 11:07 am
... But isn't that reasoning wrong? What is the origin of the defect, that should be the question. How do you avoid similar errors from appearing? How does...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 11:10 am
What do you mean with share tests? In what way? What are you assuming about the context. Same programming language, same development environment and test...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 11:27 am
... Writing a test to catch a bug found elsewhere is not what I call a learning experience. Nor does it improve any quality of software yet to be written. ... ...
... Rudeness objection. ... Imagine a system built with concentric rings of tests. Imagine that the rings are originally made up of all the tests that the...
... I mean that our department defines tests that your department agrees to make work before you ship your crap to us, and your department defines tests that...
... I listed a whole bunch, Stefan. Where were you? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com You don't need to see my identification. These aren't the ideas you're...
... Programmers should write the tests that show the defects that have been discovered elsewhere, to LEARN HOW TO WRITE THAT KIND OF TEST. ... Hell yes. There...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 12:57 pm
It's a different kind of managing than I am used to. Perhaps there are other ways of educating people. It looks too much like rubbing the nose in the mistakes...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 12:58 pm
I didn't see them. Could you repeat. My fingers were perhaps to trigger happy after I deleted emails to which I thought I had replied. Stefan...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 1:04 pm
Ok, I start to get it. ... We usually write a test plan with clear areas of responsibility. The problem with the plan is that it usually asks for more than...
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STEURS Stefan
stefan.steurs@...
Jun 26, 2002 1:09 pm
I hope you can add some years to your experience. Perhaps you can try orthogonal defect classification and root cause analysis. Fortunately I have another 25...
... It's not managing. It's individual discipline. ... How would you learn something that you weren't good at? I'd suggest practicing it. ... Because we are...
