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Top-down User Stories   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #6133 of 6547 |
Re: [agile-usability] Top-down User Stories

First: Thanks to all the smart people getting back to Jana with thought provoking answers.

I'll chip in two-cents - and I'd like you to value my advice at exactly that.  Warning: I can't seem to answer questions with crisp advice - grab a cup of coffee before you start to read this.

product management should specify a "theme",

I'll refine that to say that product management should specify a desired outcome.  By outcome I mean what happens after the software ships.  How does the company benefit?  What customers and users are relevant to that business benefit?  What sort of solution does the product manager believe will achieve that outcome? 

I've recently been trying on for size the language used by a speaker from Frog who gave a keynote at IxDA 09 (I forget his name...).  He introduced the language output-outcome-impact

output: is what we build
outcome: is what happens in the world after we release our product
impact: is what happens later - often much later.

We don't want software (the output), rather we want the outcome - the profit, the increased customer satisfaction and retention, the expansion into new markets - all that stuff.  We're ideally driving towards some longer range impact aligned with our organization's vision - to become dominant in the marketplace, or (isn't it google that says) "do no harm."  If we released software that made a profit, but damaged our reputation in the industry, that would be a good short term outcome, but questionable long term impact.  I know a company that had made a choice to include more advertising on their site. It's had a good short term outcome (more revenue).  But, they're concerned that this move may damage their brand having questionable long term impact (their customers grumble about the ads).

Outcome and impact is where the business value lives.  If you don't know what your desired outcome and impact are, you don't know what your business value is.  Don't build software till you do - unless of course you're having fun at it... but then "fun" is your desired outcome.  ;-) 

The product owner and team prioritize work relative to that.

product owner should write User Stories for it,

That'll work so long as the product owner understands the desired outcome, gathers the information necessary write stories that could result in software to get that outcome, and engages in some form of evaluation of the software - ideally with users and others - that can help determine if we're likely to get that outcome.

In english now: work with a collaborative team of smart people.  Study the users.  Show prototypes and working software to users.  Watch them use it.  Continuously ask if we're likely to get that outcome when the software is released.  Release as soon as you can - because you never really know.  All software is a speculative until released - like a boat that's never been placed in the water - you'll know it floats when you actually launch it.  Sadly, I've  seen a lot of "concrete boats" being built.

developers should estimate them and eventually split them into tasks.

They need to understand the desired outcome as well - as well as have a pretty good "big picture" of the desired product in their head.  This let's them innovate - really think.  When they're allowed to think, they'll begin to move into this sweet spot of quickest to build and helps to secure desired outcomes.  They'll begin to be alert to stuff that wastes time - stuff that although they could build it, isn't in the best interest of organizations.

If you don't communicate the desired outcome and how you envision the product, the developers will still think - still invent - still come up with good ideas.  They just many not always be aligned with what you're trying to achieve.  If you're the product owner, and developers are coming up with what seem like irrelevant ideas, or pushing back against yours, don't argue with them - back up and make sure they understand the desired outcome, the users and customers, the product you're envisioning.  For teams I've worked with, it they still don't understand, I put them in a car (or in a plane) and go to the customer site to watch them work - to see the context.  They'll either understand, or be a little more cautious about being argumentative next time.

I don't have any particular concerns one way or the other about the separation of product manager and product owner.  Luke Hohman describes the scrum product owner role as a "product engineer" - a more tactical and technical role than the product manager normally fills.  I get nervous when the boundaries between any role are two stiff.  I picture my team and company as a bit of a soup.  (stay with me here.)  I can cut up a bunch of vegetables and toss them in a bowl - and the boundaries between the carrots and the potatoes are still pretty clear.  But, when I add water and heat - the soup begins to boil and the boundaries get a bit fuzzy.  The edges of the carrots get a bit blurry - and the soup tastes a lot better than the bowl of uncooked vegetables.  If your roles have stiff boundaries, you're doing it wrong (in my opinion.)

I like this strategy, but I have a nagging suspicion that this is not an Agile methodology. Shouldn't the User Stories be created in a bottom-up fashion in Agile?

If you mean by that that the team creates them: no.  I've seen some serious problems with the product owner and product manager not really understanding their own backlog.  Consequently they can't "steer" the project.  

The simple steps you describe will likely work fine - but the devil is in the subtlety of how you do it.  I imagine Tiger Woods explaining how to play golf:

1. place ball on tee
2. select golf club
3. hit ball into hole

It's simple see?   Anyone can do it.

Thanks for posting,

-Jeff
-----------------------------------------
Jeff Patton
+1 801.910.7908
skype; jeff_patton

On Mar 17, 2009, at 9:18 AM, Jana Jecmen wrote:


Hi All,
 
My company is developing the strategy for going Agile. Here is how we plan to maintain the Backlog:
  • product management should specify a "theme",
  • product owner should write User Stories for it,
  • developers should estimate them and eventually split them into tasks.
This strategy is believed to give us a framework to stay on track and to deliver what product management wants.
 
Did anybody apply a similar top-down approach in practice?
 
I like this strategy, but I have a nagging suspicion that this is not an Agile methodology. Shouldn't the User Stories be created in a bottom-up fashion in Agile?
 
I would appreciate your comments. Thanks,
 
Jana




Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:05 am

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Message #6133 of 6547 |
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Hi All, My company is developing the strategy for going Agile. Here is how we plan to maintain the Backlog: - product management should specify a "theme", -...
Jana Jecmen
jana.jecmen
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Mar 17, 2009
9:53 pm

Great question, Jana. I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions, but here's my take. This is not a bad way to start, and you can always do some of it, but...
William Pietri
william_pietri
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Mar 17, 2009
10:04 pm

... I'd think not. User stories have business value. Business people need to decide that. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by bottom-up, however. Ron...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
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Mar 17, 2009
10:26 pm

... What I'm guessing she means is a way where the whole team collaborates on deciding what to build, rather than it all flowing from on high. I definitely...
William Pietri
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Mar 18, 2009
6:52 am

... I take it that you mean "Top-down" in the sense that management is saying what needs to be done and this is being passed down to the team. This is a little...
Adam Sroka
adamjaph
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Mar 18, 2009
1:47 am

Hi Jana, I suggest asking the product manager to be the (chief) product owner. The individual currently assigned to the product owner role may work with the...
Roman Pichler
pichler_r
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Mar 18, 2009
2:45 pm

Jana, I concur with all of the others who have responded so far. It should work but it may not work. The key elements that are not well identified here are the...
Marjorie H Pries
marjoriepries
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Mar 18, 2009
3:46 pm

First: Thanks to all the smart people getting back to Jana with thought provoking answers. I'll chip in two-cents - and I'd like you to value my advice at ...
Jeff Patton
jeff621
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Mar 19, 2009
2:39 am

... -- ... * George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com Consultant...
George Dinwiddie
gdinwiddie
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Mar 19, 2009
11:25 am

Robert Fabricant was the speaker: http://library.ixda.org/node/3 ...Dan...
Dan Harrelson
dharrels
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Mar 23, 2009
9:14 am

Hi All, Thanks a lot for all the answers. They gave me a good insight. In particular I want to thank Jeff Patton for the extensive replay - I feel empowered to...
Jana Jecmen
jana.jecmen
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Mar 23, 2009
2:56 pm
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