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  • Members: 295
  • Category: Development
  • Founded: Mar 22, 2005
  • Language: English
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Let's change hankintalaki   Message List  
Reply Message #605 of 1262 |
Neuvontamenettely needs promotion

I read the law text and my conclusion is the same as Petri's. The law itself is
not the problem, but how organizations interpret it. We are so used to fixed
price competitive bidding that changing the tradition is difficult even though
it is not beneficial to the buyer who makes the decision.

Most of all the agile community should focus on increasing the awareness.
Neuvontamenenettely needs promotion because it is not well known.

Remember that agile practices can be applied inside fixed price contracts. We
can have monthly deliveries, continuous integration and many others.
Specifications will change anyway and if the price is huge enough why shouldn't
the vendor do that.

The public buyers are afraid of vendors that will appeal to Markkinatuomioistuin
if they lose the bidding. To avoid delays they try to play by the book which
means waterfall. Having cases where agility is approved in Markkinatuomioistuin.
If and when we have them the cases should be made very public. Do we have cases
there already. If agility is not approved then we should change the law.

Pentti Virtanen,
Ph.D.
Tieturi
-------

My yahoo identity might look odd bacause it is from the previous century.




Tue Jun 2, 2009 5:15 pm

pentti538
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Message #605 of 1262 |
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Everyone, I've heard from many mouths that the Finnish hankintalaki prevents effective software development for public sector. Eduskunta is going to make...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
May 17, 2009
8:56 am

This is fabulous. I've also heard these kinds of things but it would be great to get a real understanding of what the law says regarding purchasing software...
Allan Halme
allanhalme Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
8:48 am

Siis onko kyse jostain sellaisesta, että hankintalaki olisi estämässä/haittaamassa esimerkiksi ketterien menetelmien käyttöä? Mitä on kuultu ja mistä?...
Lahti Jarmo
jlahti1953 Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
9:05 am

No sepä siinä just on -- on vain käytäväpuheita mulle kantautunut. Lähinnä että tarjouksissa pitää olla täydet speksit siitä mitä rakennetaan, eli...
Allan Halme
allanhalme Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
10:56 am

... After a quick review of the law, I really can't see how it does prevent Agile project purchases. I can see how it can be interpreted that way, though :). I...
Petri Heiramo
petriheiramo Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
10:04 am

... Many of the parts you quoted specifically say that the project must be exceptional for that quote to apply. I don't think we can assume that all software...
Pirkka Jokela
pijokela Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
7:16 pm

Thank you, everyone, for great replys so far. Is it the law or the interpretation that inhibits agile projects? I am not a lawyer so I cannot answer that. It...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
May 19, 2009
6:09 am

Have you considered organizing a workshop with limited and invited participants to discuss the actual experiences people doing this on both ends of the table...
Maaret Pyhäjärvi
mpyhajar Offline Send Email
May 19, 2009
9:05 am

... I'm up for joining one. Yours, Petri...
Petri Heiramo
petriheiramo Offline Send Email
May 20, 2009
8:35 am

Hi, ... The interpretation, I say. But I'm not a lawyer, either. ... In essence, that should be enough. ... There are other ways in which the same can be...
Petri Heiramo
petriheiramo Offline Send Email
May 19, 2009
9:22 am

Toiselta yahoogroups-listalta ehkä aihetta hieman liipaten: Lähettäjä: ambysoft@yahoogroups.com Puolesta Scott Ambler Lähetetty: 19. toukokuuta 2009 15:06...
Lahti Jarmo
jlahti1953 Offline Send Email
May 19, 2009
12:20 pm

... This link stopped working. Let's hope this does better: http://tinyurl.com/hankintalain-muutos2 Unfortunately the permalinks on eduskunta.fi don't seem to...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
May 18, 2009
10:05 am

Here's the summary of the discussion so far, as promised. I edited with a heavy hand so if you feel I misrepresent your opinions, please correct my words. ...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
May 24, 2009
3:27 pm

Thanks for a great summary of the thread so far. ... Maybe I wrote this, but now that I think about it, I don't think this is the right way forward. Allowing...
Pirkka Jokela
pijokela Offline Send Email
May 25, 2009
6:48 pm

... In my previous life I saw couple projects from the buyers side and to some extent don't agree that current law would prohibit buying agile, nor that the...
Heimo Laukkanen
huima@... Send Email
May 26, 2009
8:10 am

I read the law text and my conclusion is the same as Petri's. The law itself is not the problem, but how organizations interpret it. We are so used to fixed...
pentti538 Offline Send Email Jun 2, 2009
8:11 pm

Just correction to the word. It is negotiation procedure - Neuvottelumenettely. See the reference of the law we are talking about ...
pentti538 Offline Send Email Jun 4, 2009
3:31 am

Hi, I had yesterday a very interesting discussion on this very topic with a relative that is working in a buyer position in a governmental agency. There are...
Petri Heiramo
petriheiramo Offline Send Email
Jun 8, 2009
9:57 am

We are going to have a meeting concerning hankintalaki and public sector software projects on Thursday. If you want to make a difference, come join us. If you...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
Jun 23, 2009
5:11 am

... In more detail: classroom 36 on the third floor. Doors should be open. ... Antti...
Antti Tarvainen
tarvaina Offline Send Email
Jun 23, 2009
1:37 pm

... Agile acquisition meeting 25.6 Meeting minutes of the agile acquisition meeting 25.6.2009 16-19 in Tieturi HTC, Helsinki Written in Finnish as done during...
pentti538 Offline Send Email Jun 26, 2009
8:55 am

HI all, Is this related to hankintalaki :) (whatever that is) http://www.dataforeningen.no/english-version.134112.no.html Bas...
Bas Vodde
basvodde Offline Send Email
Jun 30, 2009
12:04 am

Hi Bas, ... Looks like it is :). Too bad the details are behind a purchasing page, so we can't really see what it is about. :/ I wonder if it would be possible...
Petri Heiramo
petriheiramo Offline Send Email
Jul 2, 2009
6:19 am

Hi all, regarding Norwegian PS2000 and Finnish hankintalaki, ... <http://www.dataforeningen.no/english-version.134112.no.html> ... if this is still relevant, I...
Timo Lukumaa
timolukumaa Offline Send Email
Sep 8, 2009
3:56 pm

Pentti, Pirkka, me, and others started a blog regarding the public sector software projects: http://julkiset-ohjelmistohankinnat.fi/ . Comments are very...
tarvaina Offline Send Email Sep 21, 2009
2:29 pm

... Now you can subscribe to the RSS feed from the blog page. Thanks to the people who reminded me to add the RSS links. Antti...
tarvaina Offline Send Email Sep 22, 2009
5:02 am
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