Hi,

Are you going to have this course? I have tried to ask this by e-mail, but I
have not got any replies. I need details in order to create travel plans,
thanks.

-Sami-

--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com, Heimo Laukkanen <huima@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> sorry for spammin this list again, but wanted to tell everyone that
> Joseph Pelrine is coming to Helsinki. But instead of 6th of April as we
> originally thought, the public course will be held on April 5th! Price is
> - for very limited time, untill 23.3.2011 - only 600 euros, and after that
> 750 euros.
>
> If you liked Joseph's talk at Scan Agile 2011 "Turning up the heat -
> techniques for self-organizing teams", then now it is your chance to
> get a full day course on the same subject with more time to get into
> exercises and get more into practical details.
>
> Send me an email if you want to register to the course.
>
> -huima
>

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 1:44 PM, zumartic <sami.kangas@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Are you going to have this course? I have tried to ask this by e-mail, but
> I have not got any replies. I need details in order to create travel plans,
> thanks.
>
Hi,

yes the course is on.

I haven't received any emails from you before this.

Will forward you more info to your email.

-huima


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all,

After skipping the March dinner because of Scan Agile and Turku Agile
Day, it's now time to meet again! This time we'll discuss the agile
dinners themselves, i.e.
- How could we improve the dinners in the future? (Or are you happy
with them just the way they are?)
- What topics would you like to discuss?
- Do you think we could pick a better venue?
- etc.

When and where:
Restaurant Baker's, Tuesday 5.4. @ 18:00-21:00 (as usual)

The registration is now open:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/af/Agile+Dinner+Helsinki+20110405

BR,
Mika

Hello!

Just a friendly reminder that there's an Agile Dinner tomorrow in Tampere
starting at 18:00. The place is Oluthuone Esplanadi, as usual.

Register at
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=9798050


Antti

--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com, Artem Marchenko <artem.marchenko@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> It's time for the next Agile Dinner in Tampere. Me and Antti Tarvainen
> arrange it on Thursday, March 31.
> Exact place is to be booked still, but it will be somewhere in Tampere
> downtown.
> We will discuss some tips on how a Product Owner could help his team to be
> successful *and* happy. Bring your own questions, problems and solutions. We
> will definitely have time to hear and discuss them.
>
> Please, register yourself in advance at
> http://confluence.agilefinland.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=9798050
> Registration is not mandatory, but it helps us to make sure we book big
> enough or small enough place.
>
> Best regards,
> Artem.
>
> --
> Artem Marchenko
> http://agilesoftwaredevelopment.com
> http://twitter.com/AgileArtem
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Vasco,
We discussed this in our agile dinner today in tampere. I "volunteered" to
discuss this more with you :-). I am not entirely sure how this would be
different from a standard agile dinner event, but hopefully will be clear once I
have a chat with you..
talk to you tomorrow

- kaustabh
--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com, cc cc <duarte_vasco@...> wrote:
>
> Not that much.
>
>
> What we need help with is to contact the local Agilists and set-up a local ALE
Vision event. Everyone involved (including me and others) will then help to
actually facilitate those events. We'll ask Agile Finland to sponsor those ALE
Vision sessions.
>
>
> So in practice what we would need is for local responsibles to:
> - contact others in the local community that would like to participate in the
ALE Vision work. Get the local people motivated and thinking about ALE
>
> - help select a venue to get everybody interested together
>
> What we can provide (not all confirmed):
> - facilitator support and/or man-power for the actual sessions
> - venue sponsoring from Agile Finland (not confirmed - can some one from the
board confirm?)
>
>
> How does that sound? BTW: we can also change this view, it is really up to us
how we want to collect the Finnish contribution to the ALE Vision session that
will be held in XP2011
>
> More information on the whole ALE Vision process and ALE network:
> You can read the original kick-off blog post from Jurgen here:
> http://www.noop.nl/2011/03/how-to-move-europe.html
>
> You can read Jurgen's ideas about the XP2011 pan-european event:
> http://www.noop.nl/2011/03/ale-gathering-at-xp2011.html
>
> You can read more about ALE in the linkedin group:
> http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Agile-Lean-Europe-ALE-3786271
>
> VMAD11
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jarkko Laine <jarkko@...>
> To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Re: Agile Dinner in Tampere on March 31, 2011.
Product Owner "do"s and "don't"s
>
> On 24.3.2011, at 9.29, cc cc wrote:
>
> > That would be great Jarkko!
> >
> > Do you feel like taking on the responsibility of organizing the Tampere
sessions? If so let me know and I can help you get started.
>
> I'm not sure I can commit to that since I seem to be missing even most of the
agile dinners here. I can certainly try to team up with other people and help as
much as I can.
>
> That said, from the practical standpoint, how would this differ from the
existing Agile dinners/meetups? Aside from having a semi-official status.
>
> //jarkko
>
> --
> Jarkko Laine
> http://jlaine.net
> http://notkea.fi
> http://odesign.fi
>
> Check out my latest book, Unobtrusive Prototype, fresh off the Peepcode oven:
> http://peepcode.com/products/unobtrusive-prototype-js
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi all,

You can check the latest news in the Agile Finland wiki page dedicated to this:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiMeeting20110329

Get activated and participate in the event. This is your chance of influencing a
major European initiative! ;)

Vasco.

>This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)

I'll bite.

I really dont understand all the fuzz about something that doesnt seem (yet) to
have a purpose or vision.
I wouldn't mind facilitating some AgileFinland related event in Oulu, but I
really at this point fail to see why I should.

instead of flames, I am hoping on finding an answer to this queston:

   == What is the problem that we are trying to solve by creating the ALE?


  -Daniel

________________________________________
From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com [agilefinland@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
Sent: 05 April 2011 12:29
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will be
organized in April

Hi all,

You can check the latest news in the Agile Finland wiki page dedicated to this:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiMeeting20110329

Get activated and participate in the event. This is your chance of influencing a
major European initiative! ;)

Vasco.

>   == What is the problem that we are trying to solve by creating the ALE?
 
Really good question, I hope we can get an answer :)-Roberto


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ALEnetwork does not solve any _existing_ problem.

It solves a problem we don't see yet.

The USA is a case in point, they have been able to fill up our book shelfs with
books, their cities with conferences and our collective culture of Agile is
US-centric.

Why? We know that there are at least as many Agile practitioners in Europe as
there are in the US.

Why don't we hear about cases, books, stories from Europe?
Why do we get the Gurus from the US only? Why don't we promote the people in
Europe that have a lot to contribute to Agile and the evolution of our Industry.

These are just a small set of questions that we can/may ask, and ALE can help
explore or even answer!

But ALE is above all a network of people. People that are interested in
cooperating and doing things together. So, the question is back to you: why
would you be interested in being part of a Europe-wide network of Agile
practitioners and thinkers?

If you can't answer that question, then you should not be involved. But if you
are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that question, then you
know what to do! ;)

Vasco.



--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wellner <daniel.wellner@...> wrote:
>
>
> >This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)
>
> I'll bite.
>
> I really dont understand all the fuzz about something that doesnt seem (yet)
to have a purpose or vision.
> I wouldn't mind facilitating some AgileFinland related event in Oulu, but I
really at this point fail to see why I should.
>
> instead of flames, I am hoping on finding an answer to this queston:
>
>   == What is the problem that we are trying to solve by creating the ALE?
>
>
>  -Daniel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com [agilefinland@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
> Sent: 05 April 2011 12:29
> To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will be
organized in April
>
> Hi all,
>
> You can check the latest news in the Agile Finland wiki page dedicated to
this:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiMeeting20110329
>
> Get activated and participate in the event. This is your chance of influencing
a major European initiative! ;)
>
> Vasco.
>

>The USA is a case in point, they have been able to fill up our book shelfs with
books, their cities with conferences and our collective culture of Agile is
US-centric.

Yet they have been able to do so without an Agile Lean America Initiative ;)

>Why don't we hear about cases, books, stories from Europe?

That of course all depends on the networks that you participate in, but a more
interesting question is, why is it relevant where the books,cases and stories
come from?
I do agree that for example culture and regional social aspects are very
relevant, but are for example stories from Finland and Greece more comparable
than Finland vs the USA?

Don't get me wrong. I am all for improving things, and I can see that an ALE
with a large bunch of active members could potentially achieve
interesting and valuable things that are beyond the possibilities of for example
AgileFinland. The whole discussion on ALE just seems to be so vague and mostly
hidden in offline discussions.

>If you can't answer that question, then you should not be involved. But if you
are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that question, then you
know what to do! ;)

Good selling point! :)

We do have an agile dinner in Oulu coming up (14.4). I could bring up the ALE
issue there, but I still find it hard to grasp what it is that we are supposed
to do(?)

  -Daniel

________________________________________
From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com [agilefinland@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
Sent: 05 April 2011 14:51
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [agilefinland] Re: Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April

ALEnetwork does not solve any _existing_ problem.

It solves a problem we don't see yet.

The USA is a case in point, they have been able to fill up our book shelfs with
books, their cities with conferences and our collective culture of Agile is
US-centric.

Why? We know that there are at least as many Agile practitioners in Europe as
there are in the US.

Why don't we hear about cases, books, stories from Europe?
Why do we get the Gurus from the US only? Why don't we promote the people in
Europe that have a lot to contribute to Agile and the evolution of our Industry.

These are just a small set of questions that we can/may ask, and ALE can help
explore or even answer!

But ALE is above all a network of people. People that are interested in
cooperating and doing things together. So, the question is back to you: why
would you be interested in being part of a Europe-wide network of Agile
practitioners and thinkers?

If you can't answer that question, then you should not be involved. But if you
are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that question, then you
know what to do! ;)

Vasco.

--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>,
Daniel Wellner <daniel.wellner@...> wrote:
>
>
> >This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)
>
> I'll bite.
>
> I really dont understand all the fuzz about something that doesnt seem (yet)
to have a purpose or vision.
> I wouldn't mind facilitating some AgileFinland related event in Oulu, but I
really at this point fail to see why I should.
>
> instead of flames, I am hoping on finding an answer to this queston:
>
> == What is the problem that we are trying to solve by creating the ALE?
>
>
> -Daniel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>
[agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
> Sent: 05 April 2011 12:29
> To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will be
organized in April
>
> Hi all,
>
> You can check the latest news in the Agile Finland wiki page dedicated to
this:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiMeeting20110329
>
> Get activated and participate in the event. This is your chance of influencing
a major European initiative! ;)
>
> Vasco.
>

Hi all,

yesterday Joseph Pelrine held his Coaching self-organising
teams-course in Helsinki at Affecto Finland's premises. We had a blast
as a group - learning and talking intensively the whole day. I'm happy
that so many people were interested in the course and extremely happy
that we got such a good group of people together for this course via
this group and through other connections in Agile Finland community.
People brought great deal of experience and expertise with them to the
course - and we had really good discussions with all the participants.

This was my second time sitting in the CSOT-course -- and even though
many of the things were familiar already, going through them again
with good instructor and diverse group of people enhanced my own
learning experience and brought much more depth into my understanding.
I do have to say that this course is and was the best course I've been
on, related to agile software development and agile techniques -
especially as tools and theories presented during the course are not
limited to just that, but have wider applicability and value when used
in life in general.  Therefore I'd be interested to see Joseph again
in Helsinki - and seeing new people come to the course and get new
ideas from it!

I'll be writing sooner or later blog post or two about my thoughts and
understanding on some points on the course, so that those of you who
haven't seen Joseph's InfoQ talk, Scan Agile talk or have not been on
the course - can get also better idea on what the content will be and
how it could be beneficial to you too. I'll just need to reflect all
the discussions and my thoughts for some time, before I start to write
down anything about it.

After the course some of us joined Agile Dinner organized by Mika
Viljanen at Baker's - and had additional interesting discussions with
new people. It was also my first time at Agile Dinner, and I have to
kick myself for not coming to those events earlier! It was great to
see people from different companies come together and share ideas -
and talking freely over beer and burger... How often do you get a
chance to talk with such a diverse group of intelligent people outside
your own work environment? I'll try to join in more in the future -
and do want to say my thanks to Mika for taking his time organizing
those dinners and allowing us to crash in on the event!

So thanks again to everyone!

Ps. If you were listening to Joseph's course in Scan Agile and would
be interested to kept in the loop if/or when we will organize next
public course, please do email me - and I will inform / ping you when
we start to scout suitable dates again, so that we can find dates that
work for most people.

-huima

That's exactly what people said about Gutenberg's invention at first. And look
where that it got us! ;)

Let us know what you guys talk about in the dinner.



>If you can't answer that question, then you should not be involved. But if you
are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that question, then you
know what to do! ;)


Good selling point! :)

We do have an agile dinner in Oulu coming up (14.4). I could bring up the ALE
issue there, but I still find it hard to grasp what it is that we are supposed
to do(?)

-Daniel

________________________________________
From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com [agilefinland@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
Sent: 05 April 2011 14:51
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [agilefinland] Re: Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April

ALEnetwork does not solve any _existing_ problem.

It solves a problem we don't see yet.

The USA is a case in point, they have been able to fill up our book shelfs with
books, their cities with conferences and our collective culture of Agile is
US-centric.

Why? We know that there are at least as many Agile practitioners in Europe as
there are in the US.

Why don't we hear about cases, books, stories from Europe?
Why do we get the Gurus from the US only? Why don't we promote the people in
Europe that have a lot to contribute to Agile and the evolution of our Industry.

These are just a small set of questions that we can/may ask, and ALE can help
explore or even answer!

But ALE is above all a network of people. People that are interested in
cooperating and doing things together. So, the question is back to you: why
would you be interested in being part of a Europe-wide network of Agile
practitioners and thinkers?

If you can't answer that question, then you should not be involved. But if you
are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that question, then you
know what to do! ;)

Vasco.

--- In agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>,
Daniel Wellner <daniel.wellner@...> wrote:
>
>
> >This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)
>
> I'll bite.
>
> I really dont understand all the fuzz about something that doesnt seem (yet)
to have a purpose or vision.
> I wouldn't mind facilitating some AgileFinland related event in Oulu, but I
really at this point fail to see why I should.
>
> instead of flames, I am hoping on finding an answer to this queston:
>
> == What is the problem that we are trying to solve by creating the ALE?
>
>
> -Daniel
>
> ________________________________________
> From: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>
[agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of duarte_vasco [duarte_vasco@...]
> Sent: 05 April 2011 12:29
> To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com<mailto:agilefinland%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will be
organized in April
>
> Hi all,
>
> You can check the latest news in the Agile Finland wiki page dedicated to
this:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiMeeting20110329
>
> Get activated and participate in the event. This is your chance of influencing
a major European initiative! ;)
>
> Vasco.
>





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:29 , duarte_vasco wrote:

> This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)


That's a means to some end (I hope). What's the goal?

That question is why we need this community sessions in different cities.
We all have an _individual_ goal for what we want (or not) out of ALE Network.
If this is to be an initiative that takes roots we must find out what is the
common goal (or not, anything is possible).


If there are enough people that want to have a common goal, that goal will
emerge. Not everything starts out with a concrete, clear, defined goal.


What we want/need is that people that are interested in participating and
benefiting from a European network of Agilists come together. Talk about what
they think this could/should/must be and something will emerge.


The constrains are simple:

- Agile

- Europe
- Software industry
- Open Space session to gather a set of ideas, and perhaps start converging
towards something that is meaningful for us.



________________________________
From: James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...>
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April


On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:29 , duarte_vasco wrote:

> This is your chance of influencing a major European initiative! ;)


That's a means to some end (I hope). What's the goal?


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 7, 2011, at 3:50 , cc cc wrote:

> If there are enough people that want to have a common goal, that goal will
emerge. Not everything starts out with a concrete, clear, defined goal.



For someone to take the energy to initiate such a mail, they must have a vision.
Otherwise every day I'd just choose 332 random people and send them a mail
saying: "Become part of a new great movement!" and then sit back and smirk: The
goal will emerge.

In some sense, we're talking about building a community here. I think we can
dare say that Agile Finland is a community. I think I also know some things
about intentionally building community, and one of the reasons I'm jumping in
here is that given my current understanding, I don't see anything that will
provide the strange attractors for self-organization to take place here. But
maybe I just misunderstand. If your mail reflects the sum total of thought
behind this well, then, indeed my puzzlement was well-placed.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim,


Thanks for your input. Are you implicitly offering to help, 'cause I'm more than
willing to accept that offer.

I don't know how to build communities, therefore I would like to chat and learn
some of the things you refer to.


humbly,
Vasco.



________________________________
From: James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...>
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 7, 2011 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April


On Apr 7, 2011, at 3:50 , cc cc wrote:

> If there are enough people that want to have a common goal, that goal will
emerge. Not everything starts out with a concrete, clear, defined goal.



For someone to take the energy to initiate such a mail, they must have a vision.
Otherwise every day I'd just choose 332 random people and send them a mail
saying: "Become part of a new great movement!" and then sit back and smirk: The
goal will emerge.

In some sense, we're talking about building a community here. I think we can
dare say that Agile Finland is a community. I think I also know some things
about intentionally building community, and one of the reasons I'm jumping in
here is that given my current understanding, I don't see anything that will
provide the strange attractors for self-organization to take place here. But
maybe I just misunderstand. If your mail reflects the sum total of thought
behind this well, then, indeed my puzzlement was well-placed.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 7 April 2011 17:05, James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...> wrote:
>
> For someone to take the energy to initiate such a mail, they must have a
vision.
> Otherwise every day I'd just choose 332 random people and send them a mail
> saying: "Become part of a new great movement!" and then sit back and smirk:
> The goal will emerge.

But we are not random people, we are people with certain
beliefs/thoughts/affections regarding Agile. So I really don't buy
that analogy just yet ;-)

> In some sense, we're talking about building a community here. I think we can
> dare say that Agile Finland is a community. I think I also know some things
> about intentionally building community, and one of the reasons I'm jumping in
> here is that given my current understanding, I don't see anything that will
> provide the strange attractors for self-organization to take place here. But
> maybe I just misunderstand. If your mail reflects the sum total of thought
behind
> this well, then, indeed my puzzlement was well-placed.

I too don't see any explicit value (except that I get to meet lots of
cool people which is good thing for a newbie) that can be materialized
immediately but I want to see whether there will be any implicit value
through the process of trying to build this community. Whether it
works out or not is not important at this point in my opinion. But,
the whole ALE network idea has already gained quite much momentum, so
people do see (maybe intuitively) that there might be something worth
of their time :-)

--
"Progress doesn't come from early risers — progress is made by lazy
men looking for easier ways to do things." - Robert. A. Heinlein
[ http://www.agilefinland.com - http://www.scan-agile.org ]
[ http://www.jussimononen.org - http://www.twitter.com/agilepoodle ]

On Apr 8, 2011, at 7:44 , cc cc wrote:

> Thanks for your input. Are you implicitly offering to he



I might be willing to help if I knew what I was helping. The question would be:
help do *what*?

That is my whole puzzlement with this line. It looks like a Lonely Hearts club
or something like that.

The world doesn't need another club; Agile is full enough of them already. As
the Product Owner in Scrum starts with a vision, this effort needs a mission and
a vision. Otherwise, we might as well just all get together and do online
gambling together.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, we'll contact you when we have that Vision then. The steps leading to XP2011
are exactly to explore what we want as a European-wide community. Maybe we want
something that can be achieved with a community with the specific
characteristics that we offer now, maybe we don't.


In any case we are not going to dictate what the community is (even in the
unlikely event that it would be possible), we will however try to create the
conditions for those that are interested to be able to shape that Vision.


Not all projects start with a Vision (besides creating a community, that could
also be considered a Vision).


Feel free to help us build that Vision with your insights and contribution. If
you are in Helsinki on April 20th you are most welcome to bring your energy and
ideas to our Vision Open Space:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiVisionOpenSpace

Turku will also hold an event, check out their progress here:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/Finnish+contribution+to+the+AL\
E+network+Vision

Go #ALENetwork!


Vasco.



________________________________
From: James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...>
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April


On Apr 8, 2011, at 7:44 , cc cc wrote:

> Thanks for your input. Are you implicitly offering to he



I might be willing to help if I knew what I was helping. The question would be:
help do *what*?

That is my whole puzzlement with this line. It looks like a Lonely Hearts club
or something like that.

The world doesn't need another club; Agile is full enough of them already. As
the Product Owner in Scrum starts with a vision, this effort needs a mission and
a vision. Otherwise, we might as well just all get together and do online
gambling together.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I normally tend to stay away from net discussions for some reason but have
to now comment.

I'm trying to say these as i have this strong gut feeling that there is a
good idea somewhere. I just feel strong confusion as i seem to be unable to
understand it. I guess i'm not the only one and understanding/clearing out
this confusion might lead to getting more people interested and gaining
momentum for the movement/community.

First i thought that i don't understand what is this thing as it seems to
have no form nor meaning, In a way it lacks any resemblance to structure at
least in any transparent way so the main idea is left to be assumed.

When someone nicely asked about this Vasco gave a nice piece of attracting
thought:
"So, the question is back to you: why would you be interested in being part
of a Europe-wide network of Agile practitioners and thinkers?"

but then continued:
"But if you are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that
question, then you know what to do! ;)"

At least i had no idea. I think most other people than me see that they are
already doing this through internet discussions and such, so it sounds like
something revolutionary is hinted but not told. And informally these social
networks very much exist already. Are you thinking of some radical new tool
or way to stimulate these networks?

Then Coplien chose to comment and expressed in words what i've constantly
somehow felt about this. What is the aim?   Why would this lead to any
different results than Agile Finland if there is no aim?

As the aim is hidden and not transparent i have to guess it: only thing i've
seen in these explanations is jealousy against USA having so much clout. so
it would be Europe vs USA. Tho i normally very much like this idea i tend to
think here it might be actually bit stupid. And i tend to think that no of
you speaking meant this. That's just how at least i hear it.

In addition i think that as long as it's not transparent there will be at
least as many versions of the aim as there are partakers in the community.
which will mean that it's very hard to prevent it from just evaporating out
of too much diversity etc.

I guess much of the possible momentum will be lost if there isn't a central
flag to rally around.

Verneri

PS: and i really hope this might lead into something good.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

One more thing. My point was that the community exists already informally,
so creating it seems strange vision.

  V

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:31 AM, cc cc <duarte_vasco@...> wrote:

>
>
> OK, we'll contact you when we have that Vision then. The steps leading to
> XP2011 are exactly to explore what we want as a European-wide community.
> Maybe we want something that can be achieved with a community with the
> specific characteristics that we offer now, maybe we don't.
>
> In any case we are not going to dictate what the community is (even in the
> unlikely event that it would be possible), we will however try to create the
> conditions for those that are interested to be able to shape that Vision.
>
> Not all projects start with a Vision (besides creating a community, that
> could also be considered a Vision).
>
> Feel free to help us build that Vision with your insights and contribution.
> If you are in Helsinki on April 20th you are most welcome to bring your
> energy and ideas to our Vision Open Space:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiVisionOpenSpace
>
> Turku will also hold an event, check out their progress here:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/Finnish+contribution+to+the+AL\
E+network+Vision
>
> Go #ALENetwork!
>
> Vasco.
>
> ________________________________
> From: James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...>
> To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 10:13 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution
> will be organized in April
>
> On Apr 8, 2011, at 7:44 , cc cc wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your input. Are you implicitly offering to he
>
> I might be willing to help if I knew what I was helping. The question would
> be: help do *what*?
>
> That is my whole puzzlement with this line. It looks like a Lonely Hearts
> club or something like that.
>
> The world doesn't need another club; Agile is full enough of them already.
> As the Product Owner in Scrum starts with a vision, this effort needs a
> mission and a vision. Otherwise, we might as well just all get together and
> do online gambling together.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Verneri


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good points Verneri.


First to de-mystify somethings that you alluded to:

1. The "Vision" exists but is not transparent.

-- This is not true, at least not for me. I have a Vision, but that is "my"
Vision, not the vision of our community. The aim of the event on April 20th is
to get the community together and discuss the multiple (perhaps conflicting,
perhaps complementary) Visions that we have as *individuals* and emerge
something that we believe in as a *community*. The constrains are clear: Open
Space, #ALEnetwork as the core/center of the discussion, Vision as the output.


2. This is about the USA vs Europe, jealousy even
-- Well, all I can say is that you see what you want to see ;) The idea is to
improve on what the USA have done. The USA-based Agile community is *very
active* and has many venues where they meet across internal borders. In Europe
we have been very *inward looking* and have not been able to create a community
that crosses the internal borders. What we aim to do is to reduce the barriers
inherent in those borders, not to be better/worst/equal to the USA, rather to
learn from what they have done and copy the things we believe would be good for
us. This is not about jealousy, this is about admiration for what the USA-based
community has been able to build. I think we can do better, and I believe that
crossing our physical and mental borders is *one* way to do it:
http://softwaredevelopmenttoday.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-would-european-agile-c\
omunity-look.html

3. No one knows what to do
-- This is easy: just show up with your ideas and thoughts about what a
Eurpean-wide Agile community should look like/do/etc. and actively shape that
Vision:
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiVisionOpenSpace

Now my argument:
In any endeavor there are a few Visionaries, that see beyond what is there and
the current realities and there are those that don't believe anything new is
needed and that whatever exists is good enough. My position is that Agile in
Europe is about to start evolving into something that is much larger than
independent, isolated communities. It is the cooperation and collaboration of
different people that will lead to the next-step evolution in our communities.
I'm looking for that next step, the evolution that will push my limits of
knowledge, increase my network and create something that links me to other
amazing people. I know that those people are out there and I know we can build
great things together.


The question for you is: Do you also want to build something together with other
amazing people? Something that will help you, help others, but certainly
*change* how you view Agile and our community? Action leads to change, and
change leads to evolution, but in the end it is your decision!


VMAD11




________________________________
From: Verneri Åberg <verneri.aberg@...>
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April

I normally tend to stay away from net discussions for some reason but have
to now comment.

I'm trying to say these as i have this strong gut feeling that there is a
good idea somewhere. I just feel strong confusion as i seem to be unable to
understand it. I guess i'm not the only one and understanding/clearing out
this confusion might lead to getting more people interested and gaining
momentum for the movement/community.

First i thought that i don't understand what is this thing as it seems to
have no form nor meaning, In a way it lacks any resemblance to structure at
least in any transparent way so the main idea is left to be assumed.

When someone nicely asked about this Vasco gave a nice piece of attracting
thought:
"So, the question is back to you: why would you be interested in being part
of a Europe-wide network of Agile practitioners and thinkers?"

but then continued:
"But if you are at least interested in exploring possible answers to that
question, then you know what to do! ;)"

At least i had no idea. I think most other people than me see that they are
already doing this through internet discussions and such, so it sounds like
something revolutionary is hinted but not told. And informally these social
networks very much exist already. Are you thinking of some radical new tool
or way to stimulate these networks?

Then Coplien chose to comment and expressed in words what i've constantly
somehow felt about this. What is the aim?   Why would this lead to any
different results than Agile Finland if there is no aim?

As the aim is hidden and not transparent i have to guess it: only thing i've
seen in these explanations is jealousy against USA having so much clout. so
it would be Europe vs USA. Tho i normally very much like this idea i tend to
think here it might be actually bit stupid. And i tend to think that no of
you speaking meant this. That's just how at least i hear it.

In addition i think that as long as it's not transparent there will be at
least as many versions of the aim as there are partakers in the community.
which will mean that it's very hard to prevent it from just evaporating out
of too much diversity etc.

I guess much of the possible momentum will be lost if there isn't a central
flag to rally around.

Verneri

PS: and i really hope this might lead into something good.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verneri: +1.


On Apr 8, 2011, at 9:37 , Verneri Åberg wrote:

> One more thing. My point was that the community exists already informally, so
creating it seems strange vision.


People who feel left out want to say they belong to something, and want to carry
a card or a label to validate that. Disenfranchisement is a powerful organizing
force in the absence of purpose or value.


On Apr 8, 2011, at 9:31 , Verneri Åberg wrote:

> As the aim is hidden and not transparent i have to guess it: only thing i've
seen in these explanations is jealousy against USA having so much clout. so it
would be Europe vs USA. Tho i normally very much like this idea i tend to think
here it might be actually bit stupid. And i tend to think that no of you
speaking meant this. That's just how at least i hear it.



No, it's actually manifest between Jurgen's posting and the early mails
introducing the concept on this mailing list.

The Patterns community tried to do something similar to what Jurgen aspires to
do here by creating a European Pattern Community in reaction to the
American-centric Hillside group. They failed in their outreach to the rest of
Europe (except a bit in the UK), and even to established pattern communities in
Denmark and elsewhere. Today, EuroPLoP is basically GermanPLoP (more precisely,
BayernPLoP), and there is at least a small degree of us-and-then between that
community and the world community.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 8, 2011, at 10:06 , cc cc wrote:

> -- This is not true, at least not for me. I have a Vision, but that is "my"
Vision, not the vision of our community. The aim of the event on April 20th is
to get the community together and discuss the multiple (perhaps conflicting,
perhaps complementary) Visions that we have as *individuals* and emerge
something that we believe in as a *community*. The constrains are clear: Open
Space, #ALEnetwork as the core/center of the discussion, Vision as the output.


Thanks, it's clearer now. Your vision is to have a vision.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

thanks for your comments Verneri. Something just clicked in my head.

For me the point of this effort is to make these implicit networks that you
described more explicit and therefore more approachable.

Like before (and outside the association but in Finland) Agile Finland I'm
sure there have been and are people that have formed networks around agile,
but Agile Finland is (for me) the intuitive forum to try to connect to
people in Finland outside my own organization.

And, because in my mind national borders have become increasingly
meaningless in our world, it is practical to experiment with another way of
networking than the national associations. The fact that we already have
connections and informal networks across borders hints that way too.

There are a number of ways the European network could provide me value in
practical sense -- we actually went around the table and talked about this
when planning the Helsinki ALE network vision preparation process.

- Antti



On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Verneri Åberg <verneri.aberg@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi
>
> One more thing. My point was that the community exists already informally,
> so creating it seems strange vision.
>
> V
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:31 AM, cc cc <duarte_vasco@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > OK, we'll contact you when we have that Vision then. The steps leading to
> > XP2011 are exactly to explore what we want as a European-wide community.
> > Maybe we want something that can be achieved with a community with the
> > specific characteristics that we offer now, maybe we don't.
> >
> > In any case we are not going to dictate what the community is (even in
> the
> > unlikely event that it would be possible), we will however try to create
> the
> > conditions for those that are interested to be able to shape that Vision.
> >
> > Not all projects start with a Vision (besides creating a community, that
> > could also be considered a Vision).
> >
> > Feel free to help us build that Vision with your insights and
> contribution.
> > If you are in Helsinki on April 20th you are most welcome to bring your
> > energy and ideas to our Vision Open Space:
> >
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiVisionOpenSpace
> >
> > Turku will also hold an event, check out their progress here:
> >
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/Finnish+contribution+to+the+AL\
E+network+Vision
> >
> > Go #ALENetwork!
> >
> > Vasco.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: James O. Coplien <jcoplien@...>
> > To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 10:13 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution
> > will be organized in April
> >
> > On Apr 8, 2011, at 7:44 , cc cc wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your input. Are you implicitly offering to he
> >
> > I might be willing to help if I knew what I was helping. The question
> would
> > be: help do *what*?
> >
> > That is my whole puzzlement with this line. It looks like a Lonely Hearts
> > club or something like that.
> >
> > The world doesn't need another club; Agile is full enough of them
> already.
> > As the Product Owner in Scrum starts with a vision, this effort needs a
> > mission and a vision. Otherwise, we might as well just all get together
> and
> > do online gambling together.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Verneri
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:06 AM, cc cc <duarte_vasco@...> wrote:

>
>
> Good points Verneri.
>
> First to de-mystify somethings that you alluded to:
>
> 1. The "Vision" exists but is not transparent.
>
> -- This is not true, at least not for me. I have a Vision, but that is "my"
> Vision, not the vision of our community. The aim of the event on April 20th
> is to get the community together and discuss the multiple (perhaps
> conflicting, perhaps complementary) Visions that we have as *individuals*
> and emerge something that we believe in as a *community*. The constrains are
> clear: Open Space, #ALEnetwork as the core/center of the discussion, Vision
> as the output.
>

my point is quoting what i just heard at the CSOT course tuesday that "if
you don't make things transparent everybody understands them differently"

>
> 2. This is about the USA vs Europe, jealousy even
> -- Well, all I can say is that you see what you want to see ;) The idea is
> to improve on what the USA have done. The USA-based Agile community is *very
> active* and has many venues where they meet across internal borders. In
> Europe we have been very *inward looking* and have not been able to create a
> community that crosses the internal borders. What we aim to do is to reduce
> the barriers inherent in those borders, not to be better/worst/equal to the
> USA, rather to learn from what they have done and copy the things we believe
> would be good for us. This is not about jealousy, this is about admiration
> for what the USA-based community has been able to build. I think we can do
> better, and I believe that crossing our physical and mental borders is *one*
> way to do it:
>
http://softwaredevelopmenttoday.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-would-european-agile-c\
omunity-look.html
>
> Ok here my point is that i feel this is not the purpose, but i'm unable to
deduce others as people are already communicating cross borders through the
net



> 3. No one knows what to do
> -- This is easy: just show up with your ideas and thoughts about what a
> Eurpean-wide Agile community should look like/do/etc. and actively shape
> that Vision:
>
http://confluence.agilefinland.com/display/ALEnet/ALEnetHelsinkiVisionOpenSpace
>
> Well i hope you'll have nice open space about this. Anyhow Coplien has a
point Self-Organization needs attractors.


> Now my argument:
> In any endeavor there are a few Visionaries, that see beyond what is there
> and the current realities and there are those that don't believe anything
> new is needed and that whatever exists is good enough. My position is that
> Agile in Europe is about to start evolving into something that is much
> larger than independent, isolated communities. It is the cooperation and
> collaboration of different people that will lead to the next-step evolution
> in our communities. I'm looking for that next step, the evolution that will
> push my limits of knowledge, increase my network and create something that
> links me to other amazing people. I know that those people are out there and
> I know we can build great things together.
>
Nice thing yes. But one of ideas of having visionaries is for them to act
ass attractors by providing new visions that promise something new and
exiting. Sometimes more practical ones sometimes more utopistic ones.
Visions/aims nevertheless.


>
> The question for you is: Do you also want to build something together with
> other amazing people? Something that will help you, help others, but
> certainly *change* how you view Agile and our community? Action leads to
> change, and change leads to evolution, but in the end it is your decision!
>
> You know this is like the normal populist political rhetoric do you want to
support good things? :)

V


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 8 April 2011 11:20, Verneri Åberg <verneri.aberg@...> wrote:

>
> my point is quoting what i just heard at the CSOT course tuesday that "if
> you don't make things transparent everybody understands them differently"
>
>
We don't have anything to be transparent about, as Coplien said the vision
is to create a vision. Then we make it transparent.


>  > Ok here my point is that i feel this is not the purpose, but i'm unable
> to
> deduce others as people are already communicating cross borders through the
> net
>

Just because people already communicate we shouldn't communicate more or
find new ways and networks to communicate with?


>  > You know this is like the normal populist political rhetoric do you want
> to
> support good things? :)
> __,_._,_
>

And it is working perfectly! Can you hear the buzz in here ;-)

--
"Progress doesn't come from early risers — progress is made by lazy men
looking for easier ways to do things." - Robert. A. Heinlein
[ http://www.agilefinland.com - http://www.scan-agile.org ]
[ http://www.jussimononen.org - http://www.twitter.com/agilepoodle ]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

This email argument just proves, how many different and interesting opinions
we have on ALE in general and on finnish contribution to it.
I think, asking facilitators for the clear vision explanations or further
actions is not too relevant,  as this is actually the aim of the open space
event -  to share opinions, figure out what our  vision and how do we
contribute on the international level.
Especially, as noone of you thinks it might NOT lead to something good.

-1 Verneri, unless you explain me what is the 'already existing community'
and what is wrong with making it better

K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 8, 2011, at 10:43 , Katja Zorina wrote:

> Especially, as noone of you thinks it might NOT lead to something good.

I gave one counter-example in Hillside Europe. I can give many more.


> -1 Verneri, unless you explain me what is the 'already existing community'
> and what is wrong with making it better


There is a pretty clear Finnish Agile community that's visible even from the
outside. I can't name three other countries where that is so.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katja, I would kiss you now if you were here! :)
Well put.


Jim, Verneri, others: You have made it clear that you have doubts about the
feasibility, necessity, etc. for ALEnetwork.

My question for you is: are you trying to contribute to create something better
than it would have been without your contribution?


At some point being negative about that is just that: being negative.


How about if we go "improv" on this? You are allowed to develop other people's
ideas, that's how we grow ideas and create something better. If you have
questions, ask. If you have ideas, propose. I'm sure you can (if you want)
contribute a lot to this experiment.


VMAD11



________________________________
From: Katja Zorina <katja.zorina@...>
To: agilefinland@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 8, 2011 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [agilefinland] Helsinki event for ALEnet Vision contribution will
be organized in April

Hi,

This email argument just proves, how many different and interesting opinions
we have on ALE in general and on finnish contribution to it.
I think, asking facilitators for the clear vision explanations or further
actions is not too relevant,  as this is actually the aim of the open space
event -  to share opinions, figure out what our  vision and how do we
contribute on the international level.
Especially, as noone of you thinks it might NOT lead to something good.

-1 Verneri, unless you explain me what is the 'already existing community'
and what is wrong with making it better

K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]