Hi Hubert,

Welcome to the group.

If there is sufficient interest from Bangalore would you be able to do a
training here?

So far we have been meeting only in Bangalore. We want to extend it to
other cities but it will take some time.

Regards
Manoj

Good afternoon all,

I've just joined this group because I intend do some work in the Agile
field with people and companies in India. I have been in touch with
Ajay Danait and we are exploring possibilities for me to visit one of
your meetings and talk with you about Scrum and other agile practices.
I am a certified scrum master (practitioner) and certified scrum
trainer. In May I will be working in Hyderabad with a company called
Cordys, to provide scrum training. I'm also thinking about running
such a training in Pune, if there is enough interest. Let me know if
anybody would be interested in a 2 day training course, which would
result in an official Certified Scrum MAster title for the attendees.
You can reach me at hubert@....

Kind regards,

Hubert

Hi,

ASCI (Agile Software Community of India http://www.agileindia.org) will
be hosting monthly talks in Bangalore. The speakers will be Bangalore
based agile practitioners and any visitors that we may be able to sign
up (have been hearing that Mary and Tom Poppendieck are visiting town
shortly).

The inagural talk is by Ajay Danait. Ajay works for Valtech India.

Topic: Database Refactoring
Time: 7:00 PM
Duration: 1 hour
Venue: ThoughtWorks Technologies India Pvt Ltd, Diamond District,
Airport Road, Bangalore

Post back if you have any questions.

Ajay can be reached at ajaydanait@...

Regards
Manoj

Hi Friends,

  The Conference Photo Album is pulished on the website ->
http://www.agileindia.org/webalbum/index.html

   This is announced in the News section on the Home Page
http://www.agileindia.org

Regards,
Bhavin

Henry,

Why do you need a tool? What benefits do you expect from the tool? Can
you throw some light?

As for Mr.Beck's comment, the flexibility of using story cards is not
available with any of the tools - including wiki, excel. Somehow a
record in the tool seems to provide some permanancy to a story/task
where none exist. I have seen stories that are very long when people
use tools. Over time we might try to rely on the recorded story rather
than conversation.
That said, some of our teams use both a tool and cards, and some are
comfortable using only the software. Because of the ISO 9001
certification requirements recording is a must for traceability. I did
not compare performance of these teams, so I can't make any objective
comment.

Thanks and Regards
KD
--
Dakshinamurthy Karra (http://xperiencingagility.blogspot.com)

yes, wikis work well as well.  they are flexible enough for you to
structure them how you want; the only problem is that it is a bit
harder to search for, filter and sort data.  that's why i would
recommend a tool like jira, etc. instead.
cheers,
owen.


On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 18:22:30 +0530, Ranjan D Sakalley
<ranjan@...> wrote:
>
> wiki?
>
>  ________________________________
>  From: Owen Rogers [mailto:exortech@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:19 PM
> To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [agileindia] Is any tool for writing and organizing stories?
>
>
> hi henry,
> i've used a variety of tools for doing this:
> - xplanner: http://www.xplanner.org/
> - xp story studio: http://www.xpstorystudio.com/
>
> and other in-house tools for this. they each have their strengths and
> limitations.  however in terms of flexibility and visibility, nothing
> beats using cards.  we use cards and story walls on pretty much all of
> our projects.  if you spend some time wandering around the
> thoughtworks office you can, at a glance, take in the status and
> progress for each project.  the story wall is also owned by the team;
> they can easily tweak it at any time that they come up with an idea
> for improving it.
>
> personally i would always recommend trying out the story wall first.
> if you are on a distributed project and need to have story progress
> remotely visible then take a look at one of these tools (we also use
> jira for this).
>
> cheers,
> owen.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:57:22 -0000, Henry <henry.jacob@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  Is there any tool for writing and organizing stories?
> >
> >  There is a note by Kent in XPE 2nd edition, says that many attempts
> >  to work with stories, etc, in electronic form has failed.
> >  Any comment?
> >
> >  Henry
> >  www.henryjacob.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > agileindia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> --
> Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
> CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com
>
>
>
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--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

I strongly go for a wiki, the ability of a wiki to behave like a stack
of cards is great and very flexible.
We use it extensively such that each user story is a wiki page, but
like owen suggests there has to be "PEN ON PAPER" representation of
the story to be available for use when we need without depending on a
wiki.

But sharing and changing the stories and maintaing versions are a
breeze with a wiki.

Sarath.



Owen Rogers wrote:

>  hi henry, i've used a variety of tools for doing this: - xplanner:
>  http://www.xplanner.org/ - xp story studio:
>  http://www.xpstorystudio.com/
>
>  and other in-house tools for this. they each have their strengths
>  and limitations. however in terms of flexibility and visibility,
>  nothing beats using cards. we use cards and story walls on pretty
>  much all of our projects. if you spend some time wandering around
>  the thoughtworks office you can, at a glance, take in the status
>  and progress for each project. the story wall is also owned by the
>  team; they can easily tweak it at any time that they come up with
>  an idea for improving it.
>
>  personally i would always recommend trying out the story wall
>  first. if you are on a distributed project and need to have story
>  progress remotely visible then take a look at one of these tools
>  (we also use jira for this).
>
>  cheers, owen.
>
>
>
>  On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:57:22 -0000, Henry <henry.jacob@...>
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Is there any tool for writing and organizing stories?
> >
> > There is a note by Kent in XPE 2nd edition, says that many
> > attempts to work with stories, etc, in electronic form has
> > failed. Any comment?
> >
> > Henry www.henryjacob.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> > Service.
>
>
>  -- Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
>  CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com
>
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hi henry,
i've used a variety of tools for doing this:
- xplanner: http://www.xplanner.org/
- xp story studio: http://www.xpstorystudio.com/

and other in-house tools for this. they each have their strengths and
limitations.  however in terms of flexibility and visibility, nothing
beats using cards.  we use cards and story walls on pretty much all of
our projects.  if you spend some time wandering around the
thoughtworks office you can, at a glance, take in the status and
progress for each project.  the story wall is also owned by the team;
they can easily tweak it at any time that they come up with an idea
for improving it.

personally i would always recommend trying out the story wall first.
if you are on a distributed project and need to have story progress
remotely visible then take a look at one of these tools (we also use
jira for this).

cheers,
owen.



On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:57:22 -0000, Henry <henry.jacob@...> wrote:
>
>
>  Is there any tool for writing and organizing stories?
>
>  There is a note by Kent in XPE 2nd edition, says that many attempts
>  to work with stories, etc, in electronic form has failed.
>  Any comment?
>
>  Henry
>  www.henryjacob.com
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agileindia/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> agileindia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

Is there any tool for writing and organizing stories?

There is a note by Kent in XPE 2nd edition, says that many attempts
to work with stories, etc, in electronic form has failed.
Any comment?

Henry
www.henryjacob.com

personally, i have a little bit of trouble referring to microsoft as
"the enemy within".  agile is a public and open approach to software
development and companies should be welcome to explore it to see if it
works for them.  the fact that microsoft is supporting it in their
latest release of MSF just indicates to me that agile is entering the
mainstream.  it will only help spread interest in and acceptance of
agile methodologies.  now, from what i've read, MSF Agile isn't really
very agile (it's more of an Agile-RUP hybrid), but i don't expect
microsoft to really challenge the paradigm here in the way that XP
does.  they've always been more of a market follower than a market
leader.
cheers,
owen.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:31:02 -0000, Henry <henry.jacob@...> wrote:
>
>  Microsoft gets into Agile Bandwagon, by releasing their process
>  guidelines called Microsoft Solution Framework: Agile Software
>  Development (MSF: Agile)
>
>  http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/teamsystem/workshop/msfagile/default.asp
>  x
>
>  I don't know, how agile their `MSF Agile' is? but, they see some
>  money in the name `Agile'.
>
>  Henry
>  Solution Architect, IonIdea
>  Blog: www.henryjacob.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>  ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agileindia/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> agileindia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

Hi Friends,

   I have started uploading the presentations to the website.
The download links are present along with the talk description for
those  presentations that we have recieved so far.

Click on any talk on the program
page(http://www.agileindia.org/program.htm) to view an abstract and
download it if available.

Speakers, please rush in your presentations so that we can upload them
asap.

Regards,
Bhavin

Microsoft gets into Agile Bandwagon, by releasing their process
guidelines called Microsoft Solution Framework: Agile Software
Development (MSF: Agile)

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/teamsystem/workshop/msfagile/default.asp
x

I don't know, how agile their `MSF Agile' is? but, they see some
money in the name `Agile'.

Henry
Solution Architect, IonIdea
Blog: www.henryjacob.com

>  One of the things that bothers me about agile estimation is the use of
>  abstract story points. How does someone ties these points to something
>  "real" to make sure that over the course of time, the story points
>  remain at the same "level of difficulty"?
>
>  Is this an area of concern for agile practisioners? Has any attempt
>  been made in this area?

hi suresh,
good question.  mapping to story points to actual time is actually a
pretty simple task.
let's take a simple scenario and convert from story points to person days:
- assume that your team has completed 40 story points in the last iteration
- assume that your team has 4 full-time devs and that you use 2 week iterations
- this means that you have a capacity of 4*5*2=40 person days
- now you can just divide the capacity (40) by the # story points (40)
to determine the number of person days per story point -- which is 1
in this case.  IOW, one story point is approximately equivalent to one
person day.

you could easily do the same for person hours, pair hours or whatever
your desired unit of conversion is.

so the question is, why bother using story points in the first place?
why not just use real/ideal time.  there are quite a few reasons why
xp prefers using something more abstract like story points:
1) story points naturally encompass the uncertainty inherent in an
estimate.  instead of saying that this story is going to take 3 days,
i'm actually saying that it will take between 2 and 5 days.
2) it separates the notion of story size from how long it is going to
take.  how long it is going to take depends on a number of different
factors: who is working on it, unexpected problems, etc.  all of these
things are very hard to estimate and will vary from team to team,
project to project.  xp lets velocity take care of this variation.
3) story points tend to encourage pairing, pair rotation and team
accountability -- all important parts of an xp team.

this is just the start of a much longer discussion.  i recommend
exploring some books and papers on the subject (i'm working on my
own).  you might be interested to look through the drafts of mike
cohn's book on agile planning:
http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/agileplanning

hope this helps.
cheers,
owen.

--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

One of the things that bothers me about agile estimation is the use of
abstract story points. How does someone ties these points to something
"real" to make sure that over the course of time, the story points
remain at the same "level of difficulty"?

Is this an area of concern for agile practisioners? Has any attempt
been made in this area?

>  Thanks for your comments!
and thanks for yours :)

>  [ You have actually given me a good suggestion that I can try out with
>  respect to pair programming. I'll ensure that I try it out and then look
> for
>  impact that could have on my superiors.]

super :)

>  what questions are asked/answered during your standup?  do you follow
>  the rigid scrum approach of the three questions?
>
>  [ The questions that we normally answer during a stand-up meeting are -
>  * What did we achieve
>  * Are there any roadblocks in achieving a task
>  * Did we learn anything that could be useful for others in the team
>  * Are we going wrong anywhere and is there any scope for improvement or
>  better way of doing any particular activity
>  ]

sounds good.  i mainly ask because i've been having a number of
discussions recently around here about the effectiveness of standup
meetings.
>

>  how does tdd help you identify roadblocks "in terms of resources"?
>  i'm not sure i understand.
>
>  [ I mean the resources that we need to complete smooth testing and
>  acceptance (more in terms of what computing resources or environment do we
>  need to test the implementation) ]

ok.  how about acceptance testing (aka customer tests)?  i might pose
this question more broadly to the group.

>  >  4) I've always maintained that every member of the team is aware of
>  >  every other part of the project implementation but specializes in a
>  >  particular bit. This way, even though I'm not following Pair
>  >  Programming, I'm sufficiently covered and prepared for any possible
>  >  knowledge loss. The max team size I've tried this is with 10
>  >  programmers. I have my own doubts on it's efficiency beyond this
>  >  point!
>
>  we have something that we call the "bus factor".  basically, it is:
>  what would be the impact to the project if this person was run over by
>  a bus (which in bangalore is a real possibility).
>
>  [ I'm sorry I didn't understand this point. Appreciate if you can please
>  elaborate on how do we calculate the efficiency ]

xp tends to eschew specialists.  specialists represent a risk to your
project because if anything happens to them, it could affect your
release.  if a critical part of the sytem is known by only one person
then they have a high bus factor.  the best bet is to ensure that
knowledge is distributed broadly across the team and your most
experienced members are actively involved in spreading their knowledge
throughout the team.

>  [ Yes, I do follow certain other practices of XP like Release Planning,
>  Develop to agreed standards and occasionally refactoring (I should admit
>  that it's not done religiously).

this is a subject that has been of great interest to me recently.  you
may be interested in checking out the drafts for mike cohn's new book
on agile planning: http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/agileplanning/

cheers,
owen.
--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

Hey Owen,

Thanks for your comments!

Please see my responses embedded

Thanks,
G.Srivathsa
Consultant

Genisys Software
33-36 & 43-46
Export Promotion Industrial Park (EPIP)
Whitefield, Bangalore - 560 066, India.
Phone      : +91-80-2841 0297 Extn: 318
FAX         : +91-80-2841 2007
Web        : http://www.genuk.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Rogers [mailto:exortech@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:36 PM
To: agileindia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [agileindia] Implementing Agile/XP Techniques


* I've implemented some of the Agile techniques in my projects over a
>  year and have found great success.. J
>  I've said "Some" because I've still not been able to convince the
>  Resource planning team especially on the Pair Programming issue L

what would happen if you did not tell them that you were going to use
pairing?  what if you just allow developers to work together when they
feel the need?
measure the impact of this.  does this slow down the output of the
team?  or are they just as productive?  how does the team morale
change?  are team members more motivated and feel that they are
learning more through working together?
if this goes well, are there ways that you can think of that will give
team members the opportunity to work together even more frequently?
how about to rotate and work with different people more frequently?
what is the impact of this?
there are lots of ways to introduce pairing into a team.  if you take
baby steps and everything just works then you should not need to
justify the way of working.  it just works.

[ You have actually given me a good suggestion that I can try out with
respect to pair programming. I'll ensure that I try it out and then look for
impact that could have on my superiors.]

>  Explained below are some techniques that I follow religiously
>  (Believe me! I've found them practically helpful) :
>  1) 'Stand-up meetings' bring a lot of clarity within the programmers.
>  Especially for setting expectations and reducing surprises within the
>  project. This is because they precisely know what they should do for
>  the day.

what questions are asked/answered during your standup?  do you follow
the rigid scrum approach of the three questions?

[ The questions that we normally answer during a stand-up meeting are -
* What did we achieve
* Are there any roadblocks in achieving a task
* Did we learn anything that could be useful for others in the team
* Are we going wrong anywhere and is there any scope for improvement or
better way of doing any particular activity
]

* 2) Iterative and incremental development has helped me handle changes
>  to the requirements in a much efficient manner. My deliveries are set
>  for every 2 weeks and this has helped me in 2 ways. In managing
>  expectations of some "Difficult" customers and also having the
>  programmers "Embrace Changes" to the developed code. I love to use
>  the words "Embrace Change", thanks to Craig Larmen for inscribing
>  this into my mind during his recent talk in Bangalore.

embracing change is really a different mindset from traditional
approaches to management.  i've blogged a bit about this recently:
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech

>  3) Test Driven Development helps me set precise goals and identify
>  any possible roadblocks (in terms of resources) well in advance.

how does tdd help you identify roadblocks "in terms of resources"?
i'm not sure i understand.

[ I mean the resources that we need to complete smooth testing and
acceptance (more in terms of what computing resources or environment do we
need to test the implementation) ]

>  4) I've always maintained that every member of the team is aware of
>  every other part of the project implementation but specializes in a
>  particular bit. This way, even though I'm not following Pair
>  Programming, I'm sufficiently covered and prepared for any possible
>  knowledge loss. The max team size I've tried this is with 10
>  programmers. I have my own doubts on it's efficiency beyond this
>  point!

we have something that we call the "bus factor".  basically, it is:
what would be the impact to the project if this person was run over by
a bus (which in bangalore is a real possibility).


[ I'm sorry I didn't understand this point. Appreciate if you can please
elaborate on how do we calculate the efficiency ]

>  5) Lastly but very importantly, I've seen that the sense
>  of "Collective Code Ownership" removes a great amount of pressure on
>  any particular programmer and at the same time resulted in more
>  commitment as a team. I understand this works better only when every
>  member of the team is responsible enough and complies to the thought,
>  which fortunately is the case in all my projects. This has brought
>  all of us closer to each other both personally and professionally!
>
>  The above techniques have not only increased my success rate in
>  managing critical projects but have helped all my people feel
>  comfortable and enjoy their work or should I say Game?

what about the other practices?  are you applying them as well?  if
not, are you aware of any impact of the practices that you are not
using?

[ Yes, I do follow certain other practices of XP like Release Planning,
Develop to agreed standards and occasionally refactoring (I should admit
that it's not done religiously).

I've not been able to fully identify the impact. Need to work on that.
Thanks for giving me pointers...]

cheers,
owen.
--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com



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>  Owen, I have been working on Java.
>  Joining in an opensource XP project would be the best way to learn for
>  me. It would be great if you guys can point me to it.

i'm not involved in any java open source projects; however, you can
find a list of such projects that thoughtworks is involved with here:
http://opensource.thoughtworks.com/projects/java.jsp
the majority of these are implemented using xp developer practices.
try starting by downloading and checking out the code for a project
that you think seems interesting.  if you see some opportunities for
improvement, try submitting a patch back to the project maintainers.
build things from there.  it can take some time to get accepted onto a
project, but you should be able to succeed with perseverance.

cheers,
owen.
--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

>  I've implemented some of the Agile techniques in my projects over a
>  year and have found great success.. J
>  I've said "Some" because I've still not been able to convince the
>  Resource planning team especially on the Pair Programming issue L

what would happen if you did not tell them that you were going to use
pairing?  what if you just allow developers to work together when they
feel the need?
measure the impact of this.  does this slow down the output of the
team?  or are they just as productive?  how does the team morale
change?  are team members more motivated and feel that they are
learning more through working together?
if this goes well, are there ways that you can think of that will give
team members the opportunity to work together even more frequently?
how about to rotate and work with different people more frequently?
what is the impact of this?
there are lots of ways to introduce pairing into a team.  if you take
baby steps and everything just works then you should not need to
justify the way of working.  it just works.

>  Explained below are some techniques that I follow religiously
>  (Believe me! I've found them practically helpful) :
>  1) 'Stand-up meetings' bring a lot of clarity within the programmers.
>  Especially for setting expectations and reducing surprises within the
>  project. This is because they precisely know what they should do for
>  the day.

what questions are asked/answered during your standup?  do you follow
the rigid scrum approach of the three questions?

>  2) Iterative and incremental development has helped me handle changes
>  to the requirements in a much efficient manner. My deliveries are set
>  for every 2 weeks and this has helped me in 2 ways. In managing
>  expectations of some "Difficult" customers and also having the
>  programmers "Embrace Changes" to the developed code. I love to use
>  the words "Embrace Change", thanks to Craig Larmen for inscribing
>  this into my mind during his recent talk in Bangalore.

embracing change is really a different mindset from traditional
approaches to management.  i've blogged a bit about this recently:
http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech

>  3) Test Driven Development helps me set precise goals and identify
>  any possible roadblocks (in terms of resources) well in advance.

how does tdd help you identify roadblocks "in terms of resources"?
i'm not sure i understand.

>  4) I've always maintained that every member of the team is aware of
>  every other part of the project implementation but specializes in a
>  particular bit. This way, even though I'm not following Pair
>  Programming, I'm sufficiently covered and prepared for any possible
>  knowledge loss. The max team size I've tried this is with 10
>  programmers. I have my own doubts on it's efficiency beyond this
>  point!

we have something that we call the "bus factor".  basically, it is:
what would be the impact to the project if this person was run over by
a bus (which in bangalore is a real possibility).

>  5) Lastly but very importantly, I've seen that the sense
>  of "Collective Code Ownership" removes a great amount of pressure on
>  any particular programmer and at the same time resulted in more
>  commitment as a team. I understand this works better only when every
>  member of the team is responsible enough and complies to the thought,
>  which fortunately is the case in all my projects. This has brought
>  all of us closer to each other both personally and professionally!
>
>  The above techniques have not only increased my success rate in
>  managing critical projects but have helped all my people feel
>  comfortable and enjoy their work or should I say Game?

what about the other practices?  are you applying them as well?  if
not, are you aware of any impact of the practices that you are not
using?

cheers,
owen.
--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

Thanks Henry and Owen,

Your advice makes sense to me, I should be able to start off trying
them in small ways. During the conference, I am sure, I will get to
understand XP better and get more answers to my queries.

Owen, I have been working on Java.
Joining in an opensource XP project would be the best way to learn for
me. It would be great if you guys can point me to it.

Thanks,
Chirag

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:36:09 +0530, Owen Rogers <exortech@...> wrote:
>  >  I was wondering if any one of you had been in such a situation?
>  as consultants, we regularly go into organisations to help them
>  improve their development process.  whether we mention xp explicitly
>  or not, we generally get them to think about certain xp practices.
>  deciding where to start really depends on the context and it varies
>  from project to project.  i would recommend starting with the
>  practices where you can have the biggest impact, where you have the
>  greatest knowledge and control, and go from there.  add things on one
>  practice at a time.  but always try to assess the team's willingness
>  to accept these new ideas.  taking baby steps and celebrating small
>  successes is a great way to help win the team over.
>
>  >  Is it possible for me to apply the XP practices at work in my own
>  >  small ways without waiting for the whole team to agree with XP?
>  definitely!  assuming that you are a developer, start with those
>  developer practices that will provide the most value to you or will be
>  the easiest to adopt.  i generally recommend starting with unit
>  testing (as a stepping stone to TDD) or continuous integration as a
>  good first step.  getting something like cruisecontrol set up is
>  something that all development teams immediately see the value of.
>  once you've piqued their curiousity, try pointing them at other
>  practices.
>  if there is pushback w/in your organisation about accepting a new
>  methodology, you don't have to say that you are trying to adopt xp.
>  just say that you are trying out a few "best practices".  once again,
>  this is rarely controversial.  once you build on your successes, you
>  can always work on convincing your management that xp development
>  practices can be used within the context of a more heavyweight cmm/rup
>  process.
>
>  >  Are you guys involved in any XP based open source development in which
>  >  I can assist, according  to my capacity?
>  yes.  lots.  what platform/language are you using/familiar with?
>
>  >  What is your advice for a developer, who believes in XP, but is stuck
>  >  with a team following traditional processes?
>  see above.  :)
>
>  cheers,
>  owen.
>  --
>  Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
>  CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agileindia/
>
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> agileindia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Hi Team,

   Its 16th Feb today and the deadline for submission of talks was
15th Feb.

   I am going to close the talks submission tomorrow morning.
Please rush in the topics if any one of you or your friends are
planning to talk.

   For those who have already submitted the talks, we will inform them
when we finalize the program by 20th Feb.

   Sriram and Suresh, please let the group know what u guys have
planned.

Regards,
Bhavin

Hi All,

Couldn't resist myself from contributing to the interesting topic
being discussed here...

I'm a Project Manager at Genisys Software and an avid supporter for
Agile techniques.

I've implemented some of the Agile techniques in my projects over a
year and have found great success.. J
I've said "Some" because I've still not been able to convince the
Resource planning team especially on the Pair Programming issue L

Explained below are some techniques that I follow religiously
(Believe me! I've found them practically helpful) :
1) 'Stand-up meetings' bring a lot of clarity within the programmers.
Especially for setting expectations and reducing surprises within the
project. This is because they precisely know what they should do for
the day.
2) Iterative and incremental development has helped me handle changes
to the requirements in a much efficient manner. My deliveries are set
for every 2 weeks and this has helped me in 2 ways. In managing
expectations of some "Difficult" customers and also having the
programmers "Embrace Changes" to the developed code. I love to use
the words "Embrace Change", thanks to Craig Larmen for inscribing
this into my mind during his recent talk in Bangalore.
3) Test Driven Development helps me set precise goals and identify
any possible roadblocks (in terms of resources) well in advance.
4) I've always maintained that every member of the team is aware of
every other part of the project implementation but specializes in a
particular bit. This way, even though I'm not following Pair
Programming, I'm sufficiently covered and prepared for any possible
knowledge loss. The max team size I've tried this is with 10
programmers. I have my own doubts on it's efficiency beyond this
point!
5) Lastly but very importantly, I've seen that the sense
of "Collective Code Ownership" removes a great amount of pressure on
any particular programmer and at the same time resulted in more
commitment as a team. I understand this works better only when every
member of the team is responsible enough and complies to the thought,
which fortunately is the case in all my projects. This has brought
all of us closer to each other both personally and professionally!

The above techniques have not only increased my success rate in
managing critical projects but have helped all my people feel
comfortable and enjoy their work or should I say Game?

Thanks,
Srivathsa
Genisys Software

>  I was wondering if any one of you had been in such a situation?
as consultants, we regularly go into organisations to help them
improve their development process.  whether we mention xp explicitly
or not, we generally get them to think about certain xp practices.
deciding where to start really depends on the context and it varies
from project to project.  i would recommend starting with the
practices where you can have the biggest impact, where you have the
greatest knowledge and control, and go from there.  add things on one
practice at a time.  but always try to assess the team's willingness
to accept these new ideas.  taking baby steps and celebrating small
successes is a great way to help win the team over.

>  Is it possible for me to apply the XP practices at work in my own
>  small ways without waiting for the whole team to agree with XP?
definitely!  assuming that you are a developer, start with those
developer practices that will provide the most value to you or will be
the easiest to adopt.  i generally recommend starting with unit
testing (as a stepping stone to TDD) or continuous integration as a
good first step.  getting something like cruisecontrol set up is
something that all development teams immediately see the value of.
once you've piqued their curiousity, try pointing them at other
practices.
if there is pushback w/in your organisation about accepting a new
methodology, you don't have to say that you are trying to adopt xp.
just say that you are trying out a few "best practices".  once again,
this is rarely controversial.  once you build on your successes, you
can always work on convincing your management that xp development
practices can be used within the context of a more heavyweight cmm/rup
process.

>  Are you guys involved in any XP based open source development in which
>  I can assist, according  to my capacity?
yes.  lots.  what platform/language are you using/familiar with?

>  What is your advice for a developer, who believes in XP, but is stuck
>  with a team following traditional processes?
see above.  :)

cheers,
owen.
--
Owen Rogers | http://dotnetjunkies.com/weblog/exortech |
CruiseControl.NET - http://ccnet.thoughtworks.com

Chirag,

You are not alone, there quite lots of people get into this situation

In my view, Agile can be applied to any level and any filed, as long
as you address the XP values Communication, Feedback, Simplicity and
Courage.

Communication
>Meet your manager/ team lead every morning, update him about the
issues, and what you are going to do

Feedback
>Start writing Unit Tests
>Don't postpone any domain issues, discuss with your manager/customer
>When ever you complete a task/interface ask your manager/customer to
verify

Simplicity
>Concentrate only on what need to be done for the task you are
currently working on. (There can be exceptions to this)

Courage
>Don't accept any estimation, unless you are comfortable in
completing that in given time

Also start promoting Agile in your team and organization

Henry
Solution Architect, IonIdea
Blog: www.lakesidelab.com
Mobile: 98860-95095


--- In agileindia@yahoogroups.com, "chiragsdoshi" <chirag.doshi@g...>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have been reading about the Agile and XP processes since a long
time
> now. Conceptually, I agree with all the practices, they all seem to
be
> them most natural thing to do, to me.
>
> I have tried out TDD in my own small programs. But since my
> organization does not practice Agile/XP ideas,  I have not been able
> to really experience an XP Project. I am still looking for an
> opportunity to get some hands on experience of working on a project
> with a team following XP.
>
> I was wondering if any one of you had been in such a situation?
> Is it possible for me to apply the XP practices at work in my own
> small ways without waiting for the whole team to agree with XP?
> Are you guys involved in any XP based open source development in
which
> I can assist, according  to my capacity?
> What is your advice for a developer, who believes in XP, but is
stuck
> with a team following traditional processes?
>
> Regards,
> Chirag

Hi all,

I have been reading about the Agile and XP processes since a long time
now. Conceptually, I agree with all the practices, they all seem to be
them most natural thing to do, to me.

I have tried out TDD in my own small programs. But since my
organization does not practice Agile/XP ideas,  I have not been able
to really experience an XP Project. I am still looking for an
opportunity to get some hands on experience of working on a project
with a team following XP.

I was wondering if any one of you had been in such a situation?
Is it possible for me to apply the XP practices at work in my own
small ways without waiting for the whole team to agree with XP?
Are you guys involved in any XP based open source development in which
I can assist, according  to my capacity?
What is your advice for a developer, who believes in XP, but is stuck
with a team following traditional processes?

Regards,
Chirag

Hi Friends,

   The Online Registrations for Agile India 2005 are open now.
You can Register as a Delegate at http://www.agileindia.org .
Spread the word among your friends.

Regards,
Bhavin

Hi all,

I have been reading about the Agile and XP processes since a long time
now. Conceptually, I agree with all the practices, they all seem to be
them most natural thing to do, to me.

I have tried out TDD in my own small programs. But since my
organization does not practice Agile/XP ideas,  I have not been able
to really experience an XP Project. I am still looking for an
opportunity to get some hands on experience of working on a project
with a team following XP.

I was wondering if any one of you had been in such a situation?
Is it possible for me to apply the XP practices at work in my own
small ways without waiting for the whole team to agree with XP?
Are you guys involved in any XP based open source development in which
I can assist, according  to my capacity?
What is your advice for a developer, who believes in XP, but is stuck
with a team following traditional processes?

Regards,
Chirag


On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:15:13 +0530, Manoj Bharadwaj
<mbharadwaj@...> wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  Yesterday, the organizing committee of Agile India 2005 had a meeting.
>  We were discussing topics/themes for various sessions and wanted to ask
>  the delegate community, who would be the ones responsible for making
>  this conference a success, their thoughts on the same. Please do post
>  your thoughts on how you want to benefit from attending the conference.
>  If you want to attend a talk on a specific Agile related topic please do
>  give us some details on that.
>
>  Do write to us if you have any other questions.
>
>  Regards
>  Manoj Bharadwaj
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>  ________________________________
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agileindia/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> agileindia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Hi Friends,

   The Online Registrations for Agile India 2005 will be open very
soon on http://www.agileindia.org.

   This is an advance notification. I will be sending another
notification when we go live.

Cheers,
Bhavin

Hi,

Yesterday, the organizing committee of Agile India 2005 had a meeting.
We were discussing topics/themes for various sessions and wanted to ask
the delegate community, who would be the ones responsible for making
this conference a success, their thoughts on the same. Please do post
your thoughts on how you want to benefit from attending the conference.
If you want to attend a talk on a specific Agile related topic please do
give us some details on that.

Do write to us if you have any other questions.

Regards
Manoj Bharadwaj