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The DAMA crowd misses the point yet again   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #5982 of 8962 |
Re: [AM] The DAMA crowd misses the point yet again

On 06/05/2007, at 2:13 PM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Bad code is bad code. If you write bad code, the data definition
> will be spread all over,

All the code, good or bad, deals with the information. If you
change the shape a bit, you have to change all the code that
deals with that bit, and you have to be able to find that code.
Traditional data access techniques (SQL, etc) make that
harder than it should be, so the data management folk *have*
to be a bit defensive. The tools vendors leave them no choice.

And *that* is what I want to change.

> It's not appropriate, seems to me, to blame Agile for what happens
> if you
> write bad code and then refactor it.

I didn't blame Agile. I don't support people who blame Agile. But
I acknowledge the reasons they exist. Is that so hard to understand?

Clifford Heath.



Sun May 6, 2007 4:30 am

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Message #5982 of 8962 |
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Hello, Clifford. On Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 11:49:14 PM, you ... Bad code is bad code. If you write bad code, the data definition will be spread all over,...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
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May 6, 2007
4:14 am

... All the code, good or bad, deals with the information. If you change the shape a bit, you have to change all the code that deals with that bit, and you...
Clifford Heath
clifford_heath4
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May 6, 2007
4:30 am

... Perhaps the real problem is that the data management folks don't have the requisite skills to build their own tools? As I said early, one of the primary...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
1:05 pm

... Scott, even if that's true, the attitude isn't going to improve communication at all. Dave Rooney Mayford Technologies http://www.mayford.ca...
Dave Rooney
daverooneyca
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May 6, 2007
5:31 pm

... And continuing to ignore their behavior isn't going to help either. - Scott Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo!...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
5:56 pm

Doing the right amount of up front work precludes doing the costliest of refactoring. Doing enough quality modeling of the domain up front usually makes it ...
Jon Kern
jonkernpa
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May 6, 2007
2:15 pm

... A significant challenge that we face is the data folks are often running under different assumptions than we are. When you assume that it's difficult to...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
5:36 pm

Scott, Not being open to the techniques that would reduce the cost of change is just a symptom of the problem. I believe the root cause of the problem is the...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
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May 6, 2007
6:02 pm

... That could be. I wrote something along these very lines in my discussion of the "One Truth Above All Else" anti-pattern at ...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
6:17 pm

Scott: Once we get to the end of this story, I am going to agree with your comments about master data management (MDM) and the difficulty - or even wisdom - of...
bill.mccrosky
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May 7, 2007
5:39 pm

... <snip> ... Good point. ;-) ... That would be great if they would actually do that effectively. It rarely seems to be the case. ... That would be great...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 7, 2007
8:04 pm

... I don't think that I've ever heard this from the UI community. Can you point us to a reference? This sounds more to me like the "data is the center of the...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
12:56 pm

... I thought it was pretty self-evident. The user interfaces are sketched to provide the required context for a user to accomplish a given task, and to allow...
Clifford Heath
clifford_heath4
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May 6, 2007
1:48 pm

... The core issue is that this observation is exactly backwards. It is not the information model that pervades every part of the application, but rather...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
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May 6, 2007
2:27 pm

... Exactly. This is one of the fundamental challenges with working with data professionals. They have their data hammer and as a result everything looks...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 6, 2007
5:49 pm

... Both are partly true, unfortunately - which is why we need to be able to form information models that are more pliable. The static tabular structures that...
Clifford Heath
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May 6, 2007
11:25 pm

Clifford, I have found that if I do not challenge statements that imply phasism (intentionally or not), the non-agilists will interpret the statements with the...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
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May 7, 2007
12:07 am

... Too true unfortunately. I don't know how to overcome that objection really, except... part of the reason they've developed that dogma is that past change...
Clifford Heath
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May 7, 2007
1:35 am

... their ... of ... The way that you overcome that objection is that you make it very clear that: 1. There are options (i.e. test-first approaches, ...
Scott Ambler
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May 7, 2007
10:52 am

If you want some real concrete info to back you up, get the book “Agile & Iterative Development” A Manager’s Guide by Craig Larman. It’s a great read, ...
Tim Tuxworth
timtuxworth
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May 7, 2007
4:33 pm

indeed, that chapter has tons of evidence... when i reviewed Walker Royce jr's manuscript for his book on software project management, i admit to it being the...
Jon Kern
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May 8, 2007
3:31 am

In a message dated 5/6/2007 7:27:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sgordonphd@... writes: The core issue is that this observation is exactly backwards. It is...
PeteCRuth@...
petecruth
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May 6, 2007
3:21 pm

i would like to propose a distinction in dealing with data issues along the following lines: * New projects * Projects with existing XXGBs of data Also,...
Jon Kern
jonkernpa
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May 6, 2007
4:29 pm

... Yes, and that happens with a fair bit of frequency. Unfortunately the data guardians will often respond with ratcheting up their command-and-control...
Scott Ambler
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May 6, 2007
6:14 pm

... When planning an architecture I find volumetrics to be key information. They tell me where the performance problems will most likely be and I can then...
Hubert Matthews
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May 15, 2007
12:19 pm

... This may add absolutely no value, but I do just have to ask a simple question of people whose opinions I've come to respect: Why do those opposed to Agile...
Brian McLean
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May 5, 2007
2:16 pm

... <snip> ... I think that the Agile movement really upsets the traditional apple cart. Part of our message is that you need to be able to deliver working...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
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May 5, 2007
4:08 pm

... Because projects and even companies have been destroyed by behaviour that had been approved only because it was branded Agile. Because in some cases, those...
Clifford Heath
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May 6, 2007
1:50 am

Hello, Clifford. On Saturday, May 5, 2007, at 9:49:23 PM, you ... Please tell us the story of two or more companies destroyed by behavior branded Agile. Ron...
Ron Jeffries
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May 6, 2007
3:09 am

... I can give you one recent data point: a comparison of two "agile" teams working on the same overall project. I use quotation marks because one was more...
Hubert Matthews
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May 15, 2007
1:12 pm
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