Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
agilemodeling · Agile Modeling
  • Members Only
  • Post
  • Files
  • Photos
  • Links
  • Polls
  • Members
  • Calendar
  • Promote
  • Groups Labs (Beta)
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.
Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system.

Messages

   Messages Help
Message #
Search:
Advanced
The Risks of Traditional Modeling   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #6754 of 8924 |
Re: [OT] [AM] Engineering was: The Risks of Traditional Modeling --> formal debate?

Hello, Scott. On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 11:16:12 PM, you
wrote:

> Code may be a [complex, obscure, exact but overspecified] way to represent a
> design, but it cannot BE a design.

Au contraire. The program is a bunch of bits in silicon. The source
code is an abstract language specifying that sequence of bits, i.e.
specifying the program. The program is /exactly/ a design. It is
exactly /the/ design. It's the only design that says precisely what
we want the program to do.

Or not. I don't care. :)

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
The rules are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
Sun Nov 4, 2007 4:23 am

Show Message Option
ronaldejeffries
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Forward 		Message #6754 of 8924 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

what percentage of stakeholders speak UML? probably the same percentage that speak use cases or any other software-centric thing. what percentage of...
Jon Kern
jonkernpa
Offline Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
6:22 pm

Hello, Scott. On Thursday, November 1, 2007, at 11:16:12 PM, you ... Au contraire. The program is a bunch of bits in silicon. The source code is an abstract...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
4:24 am

i posted some additional thoughts on "What is Design" http://technicaldebt.com/archives/2007_11.html#000629 jon blog: http://technicaldebt.com...
Jon Kern
jonkernpa
Offline Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
7:23 pm

... Yes, I would usually represent all of the things I mentioned in diagrams. I tend to think along the lines of Kruchten's 4+1 views, though I rarely do...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Nov 2, 2007
8:28 pm

... Scott, In your analogy, the building is the equivalent of the software (a sequence of 0s and 1s that a specific type of computer can execute), whereas the...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Nov 2, 2007
10:13 pm

http://www.bleading-edge.com/Publications/C++Journal/Cpjour2.htm 'nuff said. - Jonathon ... From: Scott Preece <sepreece@...> To:...
Jonathon Golden
jgolden3
Offline Send Email 		Nov 2, 2007
11:29 pm

Hi, From the paper (which I enjoyed reading): "Ultimately, a software design must be *represented* in some programming language" [emphasis added]. Note that I...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Nov 3, 2007
1:48 am

"If we could give detailed blue prints of a building to an army of robots and come back later to find a completed building, would you now say that the blue...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Nov 3, 2007
2:20 am

Leaving aside my admitted pickiness about the use of the word design, my problem with the Reeves paper (and with what you say) is just that when I think o...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
2:52 pm

design is a multi-faceted thing... design is in the eye of the beholder code is reality design is intent sometimes the two are the same, often not jon blog:...
Jon Kern
jonkernpa
Offline Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
6:25 pm

"Stakeholders" covers a lot of ground. If the customer is a company to which you're an outside contracting company, there may well be IT stakeholders on the...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Nov 4, 2007
3:03 pm

... doesn't have all the answers. ... Just as no single process is a silver bullet, no hybrid process is either, even if designed up front for a specific...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
7:19 pm

Hi! Can't we all just get along :) sorry for opening a can of worms.... ... From: Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> To: agilemodeling@yahoogroups.com Sent:...
Mister Mr
mrrichmond2003
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
8:08 pm

... Mhh, I seriously thought we did... Cheers, Ilja...
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
8:32 pm

Mr, Does "just getting along" mean not disagreeing, not responding if you disagree, or not carefully thinking about what is being posted? I did not find...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
9:32 pm

... Steve, I'm not sure how this was intended, but on my side of the screen, this sounds quite disrespectful. In general I find that telling others what they...
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
10:05 pm

I interpret the response of "can't we all just get along" to be saying we can have a dialog if you agree with me, but if you do not agree, I do not care what...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 28, 2007
11:11 pm

... Yes, I would find that disrespectful, too. Still, the written word is so easy to misunderstand that I prefer to not jump to conclusions in those cases. A...
Ilja Preuss
ipreussde
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
6:46 am

While I generally agree with the notion that the people involved in the process should be the people responsible for defining it, there are a couple of details...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
12:07 am

I completely agree. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
12:35 am

Hello, Scott. On Sunday, October 28, 2007, at 8:07:23 PM, you ... Those needs and concerns do need to be addressed. But I don't see that people who don't...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
2:40 am

... Everyone involved, including stakeholders and management should have a vote with respect to how they actively participate in a process, but only a voice...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
3:12 am

Actually in large enterprises what I see is software lawyers dictating more and more of the process, in order for it to be compliant with all the regulations....
Holmes, Carson
cholmes@...
Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
3:14 am

Hello, Carson. On Sunday, October 28, 2007, at 11:13:56 PM, you ... I wonder why that would be. Publishing a piece of paper that says "everyone should work...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
3:48 am

(responding to Carson) ... Hah! So if 1 project has 1 set of minor non-conformances (or even fully conforms, at whatever cost to common sense) what makes them...
Paul Oldfield
pauloldfield1
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
10:17 am

I agree the appropriate process will save more money in development than the costs of process audits. Actually, it's ok to have non-conformances, captured in a...
Holmes, Carson
cholmes@...
Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
7:32 pm

What kind of company are we talking about here? I can see this problem arising in a very strictly regulated domain or government contracting. Any company who...
Steven Gordon
sfman2k
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
8:55 pm

... <snip> ... And there's certainly nothing wrong with having base processes to start from. As Scott P implies you don't need to reinvent the wheel for each...
Scott Ambler
scottwambler
Offline Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
11:39 am

Just as with code, the big wins in process design come from major changes rather than local optimizations. I think that's in line with what you suggest...
Scott Preece
sepreece
Online Now Send Email 		Oct 29, 2007
3:11 pm

Hello, Scott. On Monday, October 29, 2007, at 11:10:59 AM, you ... I'd like to challenge this. First, I'd like to challenge whether you really imagine that ...
Ron Jeffries
ronaldejeffries
Offline Send Email 		Nov 1, 2007
2:00 pm
 First  |  |  Next >  |  Last 
< Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
Message #
Search:
Advanced
Copyright © 2009 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help