Don't let it scare you -- It's really not that hard.  I suggest printing the steps so you can check them off as you go through them and it makes it easier to double-check.  That way you have the step in front of you and you can 'read along' as the stuff happens real time.

 

This seems to be one of those processes that is more complicated to put in words than it is to execute.  Once you get rolling, you will hopefully see that. 

 

-Jim

----- Original Message ----
From: Ben Martin <mushnikgravis@yahoo.com>
To: alan-if@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:17:58 AM
Subject: Re: [alan-if] Re: back again -and have question: IDE not building .ac3 file

Thanks, Jim ... NOw I have to figure out if I can do all those 12 or 13 steps that were outlined. The thought of it scares me.

-- Ben

Jim Gammon <musicman_5423@ yahoo.com> wrote:

IDE = Integrated Development Environment

 

I'm struggling to learn ALAN, too.  I use IDE to help me because af the "I" of IDE--it's all integrated:  debugging, editor, all of it.  I also like the tasks pane though I don't know if I fully understand it.  I'm not what you would classify as a programmer, so the integrated environment is really good because, if set up and working correctly, all the tools you will need are right there in IDE (i.e., you don't have to 'leave the room')

 

-Jim

----- Original Message ----
From: Ben <mushnikgravis@ yahoo.com>
To: alan-if@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 1:44:32 AM
Subject: [alan-if] Re: back again -and have question: IDE not building .ac3 file

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups .com, "stevgrif2002" <stephen.griffiths@ ...>
wrote:
>
> --- In alan-if@yahoogroups .com, Jim Gammon musicman_5423@ wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I'm new to ALAN and therefore IDE, but I echo ultra's issues -- all
> of them. When IDE doesn't even behave like the tutorial, I began
> thinking I had done something wrong in the setup.
> >
> > Martin, I end up going to the Windows compiler and compiling
> separately then the REFRESH works in IDE. However, my biggest
> disappointment is certainly the lack of error flagging.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: ultragrimsocialmen ultragrimsocialmen@
> > To: alan-if@yahoogroups .com
> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:56:28 AM
> > Subject: [alan-if] back again -and have question: IDE not building
> .ac3 file
> >
> > Hi all. I've been away for a while. I'm back in school for a second
> > degree - this time in .NET development and database administration,
so
> > I haven't had much time for hobby things.
> >
> > I think about Alan a lot actually, and last night decided to
reinstall
> > the IDE and get cranking again.
> >
> > (on winXP) I set the ide up with the preferences pointing the
compiler
> > alan.exe just as the animated tutorial shows.
> > \ALAN\AlanIDE\ alan.exe
> >
> > i also set up Gargoyle to be the interpreter
> > C:\Program Files\Gargoyle\ alan3.exe
> > (should I point to the alan3.exe or to gargoyle.exe ? )
> >
> > and set a pointer to the library
> > \ALAN\AlanIDE\ AlanLIB_v3
> >
> > both the library and the compiler are located inside the AlanIDE
folder.
> >
> > I built a simple one room game (like in the animation) but don't see
> > the .ac3 file. i've re-built, cleaned, build-all, refreshed, but
> > nothing happens. there's no .ac3 file inside the AlanIDE folder and
i
> > don't see one in the IDE navigator window.
> >
> > one other odd thing - i never saw the squiggly lines for errors in
my
> > game code - not even on the
> >
> > Start at 1
> > ~
> > (in my IDE, the "1" didn't have an error.)
> >
> > I'm sure somethings not set up correctly.
> >
> > any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Martin
> >
>
> I thought there were some simple notes on installing the AlanIDE in
> the archives of the mailing list but I can't find any with a quick
> search. So I've quickly installed the stuff on a Windows PC and taken
> some notes as I went.
>
>
> Notes
> -----
> The notes on the AlanIDE download page are pretty much sufficient
> without using the video demonstrations but there's a couple of tricky
> points to note
>
> First point to note: the AlanIDE requires the commandline ALan
> compiler. So don't configure it to use the alan.exe that comes in the
> 'Complete Installation with GUI' package available at the Alan
Homepages.
>
> Second Point: I don't think the commandline compiler works with
> AlanIDE if one or the other are in a folder with spaces in its name.
> So to be on the safe side, I installed all the Alan stuff in folders
> with spaceless names. (Not certain of this, but when I installed Alan
> under 'program files' it AlanIDE didn't compile but when I installed
> it under c:\alan, it did seem to work.)
>
>
> Step-by-Step instructions
> ------------ --------- ----
> Java
> ----
> Step 1. Download and install a Java 'virtual machine' program, if you
> haven't got one installed, from <http://java. com/download>. (Didn't do
> this coz my test pc already had Java but I think the Windows installer
> from Java.Com works okay. I could provide blow-by-blow notes on Java
> install if required.)
>
> Alan Downloads
> ------------ --
> Step 2. Download AlanIDE .zip file from AlanIDE webpage
> <http://www.alanif. se/alanide. html>
>
> Step 3. Download
> 1) Windows 'Complete Installation with GUI' and
> 2) 'Commandline compiler and interpreter' packages
> from Alan3 download page <http://www.alanif. se/downloadv3. html>
>
> Alan Installs
> ------------ -
> Step 4. Run the alan3_0alpha4. win32.x86. setup.exe setup program to
> install the GUI Compiler and Interpreter versions. BUT CHANGE THE
> DEFAULT installation location ("C:\Program Files\Alan V3 for Windows")
> to C:\Alan to get around the folder-names- with-spaces problem later.
>
> Step 5. Unzip Commandline
> http://www.alanif. se/downloadv3/ alan3_0alpha4. win32.x86. zip package
> into the folder the GUI versions were installed to (C:\Alan). THere
> are some files that in both the GUI and Commandline packages, so
> you'll be prompted to overwrite some files that already exist --
> there's no need to overwrite the files that are already in that folder
> so answer 'no' when prompted.
>
> Step 6. Unzip the ALanIDE zip package into the same Alan program
> files folder (C:\Alan). THis should create a subfolder c:\Alan\AlanIDE
>
> Step 7. Unzip the alanlib0_6_1dev. zip in the C:\Alan program folder
> into a new subfolder called 'lib'
>
> Configure ALanIDE
> ------------ -----
> Step 8. Run the AlanIDE.exe program (find it in C:\Alan\AlanIDE
> folder; create a desktop shortcut to make it easy to find next time)
>
> Step 9. Configure AlanIDE so it knows where the Alan software is:
> Menu item WIndow then PReferences
> Click Alan in left column and fill in the three file locations listed
> on the right
> Selected Compiler: C:\Alan\alan. exe
> Selected Interpreter: (not required, just double-click on gamefiles
> to play)
> Path to Standard Library: C:\Alan\lib
> Click OK button
>
> Create New Game
> ------------ ---
> Step 10. start a new Alan project
> Menu item File / New / Project
> pick a name (testproject) , click Next etc
> Right Click the newly created project in the 'Navigator' pane on the
> lefthandside, select New / Other / Alan Source File, click next, pick
> name (eg:mygame), etc
>
> Step 11. type in a simple game, eg:
> the A isa location
> end the a.
> Start At A.
>
> Step 12. Menu item File / Save (AlanIDE compiles a game from
> sourcecode when you save the source code)
> Game file (mygame.a3c) should be created in the
> c:\Alan\AlanIDE\ WorkSpace\ projectname folder
>
> Step 12. Right-click Projectname in Navigator, click 'Refresh',
> gamefile should appear in project. Double-click gamefile and WinArun
> should fire up so you can play the game.
>
> ------------ ---
> That process works for me, so hopefully it'll work for others too.
> Would be happy to hear how others got AlanIDE to work as well.
>
> regards,
> SteveG.
>

Wow!!!
That sounds extremely complicated. I'm just struggling to learn Alan
right now, using the Beginner's Guide. Should I bother to do all this,
or should I just stick with the Alan GUI that I downloaded? What's the
advantage to following all of the directions above? And what does IDE
mean?
Thanks,

-- Ben

---

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

Looking at your email, I'm thinking the question is about ALAN IDE and what it gives you?  If so, what you get is all the tools you need accessed through one interface without having to open one, do your coding, save and close, then open your compiler, compile, look at the error statements, figure them out, reopen your code, rework it, etc...The IDE gives you the code, compilation and bugs all without having to leave the application.  Also, there are functions like *To Do* that I'm not sure what it is intended for, but is where I put ideas and where I want to go next with the story or code...

 

I'm really new to ALAN, so I don't know if I can answer your questions if that's not it.  IDE is well worth the download and setup time because of what it saves you in the long run with production time.

----- Original Message ----
From: Ben Martin <mushnikgravis@yahoo.com>
To: alan-if@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 6:59:55 PM
Subject: Re: [alan-if] Re: back again -and have question: IDE not building .ac3 file

HI Jim,

Since you were so kind as to reply to my email a couple of weeks ago, I'll address this question directly to you.

 

Right now I'm using the standard ALAN3 language set-up. Namely, I have folder in which I have ALAN3 and the compiler. The interpreter that came along with it is ARUN. My question is, simply (I hope) whether it's advantageous to me to go through all this downloading, etc. that seems to be involved. What advantages does it offer.

 

Depending on how you answer this question, of course, I'll have follow-ups. Sorry abou that.

 

-- Ben

Jim Gammon <musicman_5423@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Don't let it scare you -- It's really not that hard.  I suggest printing the steps so you can check them off as you go through them and it makes it easier to double-check.  That way you have the step in front of you and you can 'read along' as the stuff happens real time.

 

This seems to be one of those processes that is more complicated to put in words than it is to execute.  Once you get rolling, you will hopefully see that. 

 

-Jim

----- Original Message ----
From: Ben Martin <mushnikgravis@ yahoo.com>
To: alan-if@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:17:58 AM
Subject: Re: [alan-if] Re: back again -and have question: IDE not building .ac3 file

Thanks, Jim ... NOw I have to figure out if I can do all those 12 or 13 steps that were outlined. The thought of it scares me.

-- Ben

Jim Gammon <musicman_5423@ yahoo.com> wrote:

IDE = Integrated Development Environment

 

I'm struggling to learn ALAN, too.  I use IDE to help me because af the "I" of IDE--it's all integrated:  debugging, editor, all of it.  I also like the tasks pane though I don't know if I fully understand it.  I'm not what you would classify as a programmer, so the integrated environment is really good because, if set up and working correctly, all the tools you will need are right there in IDE (i.e., you don't have to 'leave the room')

 

-Jim

----- Original Message ----
From: Ben <mushnikgravis@ yahoo.com>
To: alan-if@yahoogroups .com
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 1:44:32 AM
Subject: [alan-if] Re: back again -and have question: IDE not building .ac3 file

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups .com, "stevgrif2002" <stephen.griffiths@ ...>
wrote:
>
> --- In alan-if@yahoogroups .com, Jim Gammon musicman_5423@ wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I'm new to ALAN and therefore IDE, but I echo ultra's issues -- all
> of them. When IDE doesn't even behave like the tutorial, I began
> thinking I had done something wrong in the setup.
> >
> > Martin, I end up going to the Windows compiler and compiling
> separately then the REFRESH works in IDE. However, my biggest
> disappointment is certainly the lack of error flagging.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: ultragrimsocialmen ultragrimsocialmen@
> > To: alan-if@yahoogroups .com
> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 6:56:28 AM
> > Subject: [alan-if] back again -and have question: IDE not building
> .ac3 file
> >
> > Hi all. I've been away for a while. I'm back in school for a second
> > degree - this time in .NET development and database administration,
so
> > I haven't had much time for hobby things.
> >
> > I think about Alan a lot actually, and last night decided to
reinstall
> > the IDE and get cranking again.
> >
> > (on winXP) I set the ide up with the preferences pointing the
compiler
> > alan.exe just as the animated tutorial shows.
> > \ALAN\AlanIDE\ alan.exe
> >
> > i also set up Gargoyle to be the interpreter
> > C:\Program Files\Gargoyle\ alan3.exe
> > (should I point to the alan3.exe or to gargoyle.exe ? )
> >
> > and set a pointer to the library
> > \ALAN\AlanIDE\ AlanLIB_v3
> >
> > both the library and the compiler are located inside the AlanIDE
folder.
> >
> > I built a simple one room game (like in the animation) but don't see
> > the .ac3 file. i've re-built, cleaned, build-all, refreshed, but
> > nothing happens. there's no .ac3 file inside the AlanIDE folder and
i
> > don't see one in the IDE navigator window.
> >
> > one other odd thing - i never saw the squiggly lines for errors in
my
> > game code - not even on the
> >
> > Start at 1
> > ~
> > (in my IDE, the "1" didn't have an error.)
> >
> > I'm sure somethings not set up correctly.
> >
> > any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Martin
> >
>
> I thought there were some simple notes on installing the AlanIDE in
> the archives of the mailing list but I can't find any with a quick
> search. So I've quickly installed the stuff on a Windows PC and taken
> some notes as I went.
>
>
> Notes
> -----
> The notes on the AlanIDE download page are pretty much sufficient
> without using the video demonstrations but there's a couple of tricky
> points to note
>
> First point to note: the AlanIDE requires the commandline ALan
> compiler. So don't configure it to use the alan.exe that comes in the
> 'Complete Installation with GUI' package available at the Alan
Homepages.
>
> Second Point: I don't think the commandline compiler works with
> AlanIDE if one or the other are in a folder with spaces in its name.
> So to be on the safe side, I installed all the Alan stuff in folders
> with spaceless names. (Not certain of this, but when I installed Alan
> under 'program files' it AlanIDE didn't compile but when I installed
> it under c:\alan, it did seem to work.)
>
>
> Step-by-Step instructions
> ------------ --------- ----
> Java
> ----
> Step 1. Download and install a Java 'virtual machine' program, if you
> haven't got one installed, from <http://java. com/download>. (Didn't do
> this coz my test pc already had Java but I think the Windows installer
> from Java.Com works okay. I could provide blow-by-blow notes on Java
> install if required.)
>
> Alan Downloads
> ------------ --
> Step 2. Download AlanIDE .zip file from AlanIDE webpage
> <http://www.alanif. se/alanide. html>
>
> Step 3. Download
> 1) Windows 'Complete Installation with GUI' and
> 2) 'Commandline compiler and interpreter' packages
> from Alan3 download page <http://www.alanif. se/downloadv3. html>
>
> Alan Installs
> ------------ -
> Step 4. Run the alan3_0alpha4. win32.x86. setup.exe setup program to
> install the GUI Compiler and Interpreter versions. BUT CHANGE THE
> DEFAULT installation location ("C:\Program Files\Alan V3 for Windows")
> to C:\Alan to get around the folder-names- with-spaces problem later.
>
> Step 5. Unzip Commandline
> http://www.alanif. se/downloadv3/ alan3_0alpha4. win32.x86. zip package
> into the folder the GUI versions were installed to (C:\Alan). THere
> are some files that in both the GUI and Commandline packages, so
> you'll be prompted to overwrite some files that already exist --
> there's no need to overwrite the files that are already in that folder
> so answer 'no' when prompted.
>
> Step 6. Unzip the ALanIDE zip package into the same Alan program
> files folder (C:\Alan). THis should create a subfolder c:\Alan\AlanIDE
>
> Step 7. Unzip the alanlib0_6_1dev. zip in the C:\Alan program folder
> into a new subfolder called 'lib'
>
> Configure ALanIDE
> ------------ -----
> Step 8. Run the AlanIDE.exe program (find it in C:\Alan\AlanIDE
> folder; create a desktop shortcut to make it easy to find next time)
>
> Step 9. Configure AlanIDE so it knows where the Alan software is:
> Menu item WIndow then PReferences
> Click Alan in left column and fill in the three file locations listed
> on the right
> Selected Compiler: C:\Alan\alan. exe
> Selected Interpreter: (not required, just double-click on gamefiles
> to play)
> Path to Standard Library: C:\Alan\lib
> Click OK button
>
> Create New Game
> ------------ ---
> Step 10. start a new Alan project
> Menu item File / New / Project
> pick a name (testproject) , click Next etc
> Right Click the newly created project in the 'Navigator' pane on the
> lefthandside, select New / Other / Alan Source File, click next, pick
> name (eg:mygame), etc
>
> Step 11. type in a simple game, eg:
> the A isa location
> end the a.
> Start At A.
>
> Step 12. Menu item File / Save (AlanIDE compiles a game from
> sourcecode when you save the source code)
> Game file (mygame.a3c) should be created in the
> c:\Alan\AlanIDE\ WorkSpace\ projectname folder
>
> Step 12. Right-click Projectname in Navigator, click 'Refresh',
> gamefile should appear in project. Double-click gamefile and WinArun
> should fire up so you can play the game.
>
> ------------ ---
> That process works for me, so hopefully it'll work for others too.
> Would be happy to hear how others got AlanIDE to work as well.
>
> regards,
> SteveG.
>

Wow!!!
That sounds extremely complicated. I'm just struggling to learn Alan
right now, using the Beginner's Guide. Should I bother to do all this,
or should I just stick with the Alan GUI that I downloaded? What's the
advantage to following all of the directions above? And what does IDE
mean?
Thanks,

-- Ben

---

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

---

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---

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I almost typed "misery" clock. Anyway, here's a real mystery and I
hope someone out there in the ether can help me with it.

Following the instructions in the Beginner's Manual, I created the
TvTime Game. The game includes a clock that starts when I open the
tv schedule. Running the game using ARUN (the Interpreter that I got
when I originally downloaded the ALAN material) the clock works
perfectly. It changes the minute with every move I make.

However ...

Following the advice of some of you more advanced game creators, I
downloaded and installed Gargoyle. The game works well with that
interpreter -- much more visually appealing. But ... the clock no
longer works! It never advances past 3:15. I go here, I go there, I
check the clock ... it reads 3:15 no matter what.

So ... anyone have any ideas? Please don't say "I told you the
butter wouldn't suit the works."

Thanks,

-- Ben

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <mushnikgravis@...> wrote:
>
> I almost typed "misery" clock. Anyway, here's a real mystery and I
> hope someone out there in the ether can help me with it.
>
> Following the instructions in the Beginner's Manual, I created the
> TvTime Game. The game includes a clock that starts when I open the
> tv schedule. Running the game using ARUN (the Interpreter that I
got
> when I originally downloaded the ALAN material) the clock works
> perfectly. It changes the minute with every move I make.
>
> However ...
>
> Following the advice of some of you more advanced game creators, I
> downloaded and installed Gargoyle. The game works well with that
> interpreter -- much more visually appealing. But ... the clock no
> longer works! It never advances past 3:15. I go here, I go there, I
> check the clock ... it reads 3:15 no matter what.

OK, cancel the previous message. The clock does work indeed. The
problem in the original logic -- that it only starts when the player
opens the schedule. A better plan would be to have it start at the
beginning of the game no matter what. That way, it would run even if
the player never read the schedule.

Sorry about the long 1st message.

-- Ben
>
> So ... anyone have any ideas? Please don't say "I told you the
> butter wouldn't suit the works."
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Ben
>

I suppose the plan is to ensure that the player reads the schedule before starting the countdown to playoff. Otherwise the player would not know that there is a limited time and may miss the game without knowing it.

/Thomas



On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:32 , Ben <mushnikgravis@...> sent:

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <mushnikgravis@...> wrote:
>
> I almost typed "misery" clock. Anyway, here's a real mystery and I
> hope someone out there in the ether can help me with it.
>
> Following the instructions in the Beginner's Manual, I created the
> TvTime Game. The game includes a clock that starts when I open the
> tv schedule. Running the game using ARUN (the Interpreter that I
got
> when I originally downloaded the ALAN material) the clock works
> perfectly. It changes the minute with every move I make.
>
> However ...
>
> Following the advice of some of you more advanced game creators, I
> downloaded and installed Gargoyle. The game works well with that
> interpreter -- much more visually appealing. But ... the clock no
> longer works! It never advances past 3:15. I go here, I go there, I
> check the clock ... it reads 3:15 no matter what.

OK, cancel the previous message. The clock does work indeed. The
problem in the original logic -- that it only starts when the player
opens the schedule. A better plan would be to have it start at the
beginning of the game no matter what. That way, it would run even if
the player never read the schedule.

Sorry about the long 1st message.

-- Ben
>
> So ... anyone have any ideas? Please don't say "I told you the
> butter wouldn't suit the works."
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Ben
>

I suppose the plan is to ensure that the player reads the schedule before starting the countdown to playoff. Otherwise the player would not know that there is a limited time and may miss the game without knowing it.

/Thomas



On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 04:32 , Ben <mushnikgravis@yahoo.com> sent:

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <mushnikgravis@...> wrote:
>
> I almost typed "misery" clock. Anyway, here's a real mystery and I
> hope someone out there in the ether can help me with it.
>
> Following the instructions in the Beginner's Manual, I created the
> TvTime Game. The game includes a clock that starts when I open the
> tv schedule. Running the game using ARUN (the Interpreter that I
got
> when I originally downloaded the ALAN material) the clock works
> perfectly. It changes the minute with every move I make.
>
> However ...
>
> Following the advice of some of you more advanced game creators, I
> downloaded and installed Gargoyle. The game works well with that
> interpreter -- much more visually appealing. But ... the clock no
> longer works! It never advances past 3:15. I go here, I go there, I
> check the clock ... it reads 3:15 no matter what.

OK, cancel the previous message. The clock does work indeed. The
problem in the original logic -- that it only starts when the player
opens the schedule. A better plan would be to have it start at the
beginning of the game no matter what. That way, it would run even if
the player never read the schedule.

Sorry about the long 1st message.

-- Ben
>
> So ... anyone have any ideas? Please don't say "I told you the
> butter wouldn't suit the works."
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Ben
>

#1   The Alan# Manual (prelim. version) is extremely difficult for
me, a raw beginner, to use -- most probably because it's a very
preliminary draft. Among other problems, the pages listed in the
Index do not match the actual pages. I've had to go back and re-
number the Index, bit by bit. I'm sure that will be fixed when the
updated versions come out.
      Also there are huge blank sections. I'm assuming that they
remain to be completed.
      Does anyone know when we can expect the revised version of the
Alan3 Manual?

#2   How do I go about programming HINTS in Alan 3. The default
program response says "Sorry, hints are not available for this
game." But if I want to put in hints, how do I go about it?

#3   How do I ask the player a question and then program a response
based on the answer. I know this happens automatically with verbs.
But how, for example, would I ask the player's age and then,
depending on the answer, respond with "Well, you should know
better," or "You're not quite old enough to do that." etc.
      I know this has to do with strings, but I can't figure out how
to go about it.

That's all for now. Many more to follow.

Thanks,
-- Ben

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <mushnikgravis@...> wrote:
>
> #1   The Alan# Manual (prelim. version) is extremely difficult for
> me, a raw beginner, to use -- most probably because it's a very
> preliminary draft. Among other problems, the pages listed in the
> Index do not match the actual pages. I've had to go back and re-
> number the Index, bit by bit. I'm sure that will be fixed when the
> updated versions come out.
>      Also there are huge blank sections. I'm assuming that they
> remain to be completed.
>      Does anyone know when we can expect the revised version of the
> Alan3 Manual?

No don't know, suspect will be quite a while though because Thomas is
very busy and I suspect the Alan3 language development still remains
the top priority. (I'm just guessing)
>
> #2   How do I go about programming HINTS in Alan 3. The default
> program response says "Sorry, hints are not available for this
> game." But if I want to put in hints, how do I go about it?

There's a hint verb defined in one of the standard library files: help.i

Edit that verb definition so the hint command displays the information
you want it to.

That, of course, can be rather tricky if you want to provide hints to
the player that change depending on what puzzles they've already
solved or what hints they've already been provided. These sort of
hints are called 'adaptive hints' in interactive fiction jargon.

I did some simple adaptive hints for my old Alan2 game 'Skipping
Breakfast' That was quite tricky. You can look at the source-code at
the IF Archive. It should be easier to write adaptive hints in Alan3
because there's more programming features available now (such as
arrays.) There's more elaborate examples in other languages such as
TADS also at the Archive which I found helpful all those years ago. I
think the TADS example was by Nate Cull. Take a look at
www.ifarchive.org  Not sure if there's other Alan source-code examples
with hints available.

Having said that, I think you should in the first instance,
incorporate one of the simpler hinting 'systems'.

The easiest (other than the default 'there's no hints in this game'
one!) is to provide a walk-through of the game when the player asks
for a hint. That approach is quite commonly used but can rather spoil
the game when the player sees more help than they want, of course.

Another approach is to provide a very broad-brush 'adaptive hint'
system, which depending on the game structure, could be based on where
the player is or perhaps what the the score is (if the game's puzzles
can only be solved linearly.)

eg:
verb hint
   does
     if hero at first-room then
       "There's nothing to do here except look around and
       then go north to explore the rest of the cave."
     elsif hero at cave-entrance then
       "Look out for the swinging stone here (just 'duck' to
       avoid.) And remember what the secret sign says."
     elsif hero at ...
etc

You can make the hints as elaborate as you want, with for example,
multiple hints for each room/puzzle,etc and then you have to keep
track of which hints have already been given to the player by tracking
with an attribute or something.
eg:
   if hintlevel of hero = 1 then
      "look around some more"
   elsif hintlevel of hero =2 then
      etc
   end if.
   increase hintlevel of hero.

Then when the player solves the puzzle or moves rooms or whatever is
relevant, set the hint-level back to 1.

Anyway, just some rough ideas. You need to do quite a lot of boring
programming work to make a good hint system. So I would suggest
keeping it very simple initially otherwise, you'll get too bogged down
in programming gizmos when you want to get a good interactive story
written. Hints could be something to come back to programming after
you're more fluent in the Alan programming language.



>
> #3   How do I ask the player a question and then program a response
> based on the answer. I know this happens automatically with verbs.
> But how, for example, would I ask the player's age and then,
> depending on the answer, respond with "Well, you should know
> better," or "You're not quite old enough to do that." etc.
>      I know this has to do with strings, but I can't figure out how
> to go about it.


To ask for an age, probably best to use an integer rather than a
string. I think you'd have to define a verb like 'age NN' and prompt
the player to enter the command in the right format because in Alan
you can't have program a command that is simply an integer.

eg:
syntax say_age = age (number)
   where number isa integer
     else "you must enter your age as a number, eg: 'age 11' or 'age 65'."

the firstplace isa location
description "Please provide your age in years in the format 'age 11'"
verb say_age does only
   if number < 20 then
     "You're too young to vote and too young to play this game"
     quit.
   else
     "Cool! Welcome to the game"
     locate hero at secondplace.
   end if.
end verb say_age.
end the firstplace.



>
> That's all for now. Many more to follow.
>
> Thanks,
> -- Ben
>

regards,
SteveG.

I was interested to see that some Alan mailing list mail is being
blocked by my Internet providers as 'spam'. I get the Alan mail from two
different 'ISP's, one of which blocked the latest question on the
mailing list and both of whom blocked my reply!
The only way I can see the messages is to visit the mailinglist's
website which is something I wouldn't normally think to do. So I hope
others are getting the mail delivered okay.

I'm also sending this email as a bit of a test to see if it's also
blocked in which case I'll bring the fault to the attention of the ISPs.
So sorry to bother you all if no-one else is having a problem.

Regards,
SteveG.

I was interested to see that some Alan mailing list mail is being
blocked by my Internet providers as 'spam'. I get the Alan mail from two
different 'ISP's, one of which blocked the latest question on the
mailing list and both of whom blocked my reply!
The only way I can see the messages is to visit the mailinglist's
website which is something I wouldn't normally think to do. So I hope
others are getting the mail delivered okay.

I'm also sending this email as a bit of a test to see if it's also
blocked in which case I'll bring the fault to the attention of the ISPs.
So sorry to bother you all if no-one else is having a problem.

Regards,
SteveG.

I was interested to see that some Alan mailing list mail is being
blocked by my Internet providers as 'spam'. I get the Alan mail from two
different 'ISP's, one of which blocked the latest question on the
mailing list and both of whom blocked my reply!
The only way I can see the messages is to visit the mailinglist's
website which is something I wouldn't normally think to do. So I hope
others are getting the mail delivered okay.

I'm also sending this email as a bit of a test to see if it's also
blocked in which case I'll bring the fault to the attention of the ISPs.
So sorry to bother you all if no-one else is having a problem.

Regards,
SteveG.

-- 

#1 The Alan# Manual (prelim. version) is extremely difficult for
me, a raw beginner, to use -- most probably because it's a very
preliminary draft. Among other problems, the pages listed in the
Index do not match the actual pages. I've had to go back and re-
number the Index, bit by bit. I'm sure that will be fixed when the
updated versions come out.
Also there are huge blank sections. I'm assuming that they
remain to be completed.
Does anyone know when we can expect the revised version of the
Alan3 Manual?

#2 How do I go about programming HINTS in Alan 3. The default
program response says "Sorry, hints are not available for this
game." But if I want to put in hints, how do I go about it?

#3 How do I ask the player a question and then program a response
based on the answer. I know this happens automatically with verbs.
But how, for example, would I ask the player's age and then,
depending on the answer, respond with "Well, you should know
better," or "You're not quite old enough to do that." etc.
I know this has to do with strings, but I can't figure out how
to go about it.

That's all for now. Many more to follow.

Thanks,
-- Ben

Hi Ben.  I can't answer about the manual.  I'll suggest an answer # 2 for now that should start you thinking, and perhaps # 3 later, depending on others' responses.


SYNONYMS
    clue = hint.

SYNTAX
    hint = hint.

VERB hint DOES
"Play your best!"
END VERB.

THE room Isa LOCATION
DESCRIPTION
"You are in a room with no doors or windows."

VERB hint DOES ONLY
"Try knocking the wall down."
END VERB.

END THE room.

Regards,

-- Mike Arnaud

Ben wrote:

#1 The Alan# Manual (prelim. version) is extremely difficult for
me, a raw beginner, to use -- most probably because it's a very
preliminary draft. Among other problems, the pages listed in the
Index do not match the actual pages. I've had to go back and re-
number the Index, bit by bit. I'm sure that will be fixed when the
updated versions come out.
Also there are huge blank sections. I'm assuming that they
remain to be completed.
Does anyone know when we can expect the revised version of the
Alan3 Manual?

#2 How do I go about programming HINTS in Alan 3. The default
program response says "Sorry, hints are not available for this
game." But if I want to put in hints, how do I go about it?

#3 How do I ask the player a question and then program a response
based on the answer. I know this happens automatically with verbs.
But how, for example, would I ask the player's age and then,
depending on the answer, respond with "Well, you should know
better," or "You're not quite old enough to do that." etc.
I know this has to do with strings, but I can't figure out how
to go about it.

That's all for now. Many more to follow.

Thanks,
-- Ben

Ben wrote:
> [SNIP]
>  ... the "Beginner's Guide." I've finally worked my way
> through it.
>
>   I must tell you that there were several areas that caused particular
> problems ... especially that section dealing with importing the std.i
> files. Much anguish (and several emails w/ Thomas) later, I realized
> that it wasn't sufficient to import the std.i files ... one has to write
> something to the effect of "import mylib.std.i." And within the std.i
> file itself, one must code the folder as well as the program for each
> import.
> [SNIP]

While that method would work. It is far more work than you need to do. You
don't need to specify the folder name in the 'import' statements within
your source-code. The Alan compiler will find the files for you if you ask
it to.

By default, the Alan compiler looks in the current working folder for any
files mentioned in any import statements.

But if you wish for the compiler to search in other folders as well (which
you probaby will), you tell the compiler by specifying those folder names
in your compile command instead of in your sourcecode's import statements.
The Alan compiler will then search these folders for the files mentioned
in any import statements in your code.

For example if you've got the standard library files in C:\Alan\StdLib you
simply include a normal import 'std.i' line in your game's code and
compile your game with a commandline like this:
     alan  mygame   -include c:\Alan\StdLib

So the complete code for a miniature game using the standard library could
be just:

   -- My Mini Game by SteveG ----
   import 'std.i' .

   start at nowhere .
   ------------------------------


Note 1: If the folder where you've got the standard library has spaces in
its filename then put double-quotes around the name,eg:

    alan mygame -include "c:\Program Files\Alan\Library\"


Note 2: If you have more than one folder from which you wish the Alan
compiler to find files, then have multiple 'include' lines in your
compiler command.

     alan mygame  -include c:\Alan\MyStuff   -include c:\Alan\StdLib

Note 3: And if you have, for example, the original standard library files
in one folder and a few modified versions of those library files in
another, perhaps your own 'help.i' version for example, make sure to
'-include' that folder before the folder with the original version. The
compiler will then find your modified file first and import it into the
sourcecode being compiled. eg:

     alan mygame  -include c:\Alan\MyStuff\Lib   -include c:\Alan\StdLib


I hope that helps.

Regards,
SteveG.

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "stevgrif2002" <stephen.griffiths@...>
wrote:

>  These sort of
> hints are called 'adaptive hints' in interactive fiction jargon.
>
> I did some simple adaptive hints for my old Alan2 game 'Skipping
> Breakfast' That was quite tricky. You can look at the source-code at
> the IF Archive. It should be easier to write adaptive hints in Alan3
> because there's more programming features available now (such as
> arrays.) There's more elaborate examples in other languages such as
> TADS also at the Archive which I found helpful all those years ago.

just wondering... couldn't you provide the hero with some specific
item - a piece of sand, a lock of hair, a blue gem/red gem/green gem
etc after certain tasks are completed... or level the hero up each
time, then in the hint logic, just check for a certain item or put the
constraints on the current level?

by "level", I'm referring to the hero's level, not the hint level.


martin

>
> You can make the hints as elaborate as you want, with for example,
> multiple hints for each room/puzzle,etc and then you have to keep
> track of which hints have already been given to the player by tracking
> with an attribute or something.
> eg:
>   if hintlevel of hero = 1 then
>      "look around some more"
>   elsif hintlevel of hero =2 then
>      etc
>   end if.
>   increase hintlevel of hero.
>

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "ultragrimsocialmen"
<ultragrimsocialmen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "stevgrif2002" <stephen.griffiths@>
> wrote:
>
> >  These sort of
> > hints are called 'adaptive hints' in interactive fiction jargon.
> >
> > I did some simple adaptive hints for my old Alan2 game 'Skipping
> > Breakfast' That was quite tricky. You can look at the source-code at
> > the IF Archive. It should be easier to write adaptive hints in Alan3
> > because there's more programming features available now (such as
> > arrays.) There's more elaborate examples in other languages such as
> > TADS also at the Archive which I found helpful all those years ago.
>
> just wondering... couldn't you provide the hero with some specific
> item - a piece of sand, a lock of hair, a blue gem/red gem/green gem
> etc after certain tasks are completed


Yes you could. Only problem would be that the player could later do
something with those objects which are being used to indicate which
hints are no longer relevant -- eg: drop, eat or destroy them. So you
could get some funny effects later in the game such as hints for
puzzles long solved suddenly start being showed to the player again.
Which means you'd have to track in some other way whether the player
had once-upon-a-time possessed the indicator objects. So it would be
easier to just keep track of the solved puzzles in some more abstract
way which the player can't directly affect.

>... or level the hero up each
> time, then in the hint logic, just check for a certain item or put the
> constraints on the current level?
>
> by "level", I'm referring to the hero's level, not the hint level.


> martin
>

Yes. In a simple game where the puzzles can only be solved in a
certain order. A separate level attribute might not even be necessary
-- the game score might be all that's needed to be checked. In many
game designs though, many puzzles can be solved in many different
sequences so a linear indicator like incrementing the hero's 'level'
attribute or checking the overall game-score may not provide enough
information to ascertain which hints are relevant to the player.

So, in such non-linear game designs, for the purpose of offering
relevant hints to the player, it's best to track whether each puzzle
is solved individually. So, in general, you end up managing a matrix
of information -- a list of puzzles for which hints have been coded,
whether each puzzle has been solved (and therefore hints should no
longer be offered to the player), whether a puzzle is yet relevant to
the player (don't want to offer the player a hint for a situation in
the end-game when he's only at the opening scene!) and for each
relevant puzzle which hints have already been displayed (so if he asks
for another hint, give him one he hasn't seen already.)

There's a multitude of ways to track puzzles solved and hint
relevance. So what to implement and how to implement it requires some
strenous thought and design work by the game author. I like this old
'adhint' article from the IF Archive on adaptive hints by Dave Allen /
Stephen Granade (in an earlier email, I think I said the article might
be by Nate Cull which was wrong.) It provides an overview of the logic
for coding a general-purpose hint system along with sample code in the
TADS2 programming language. The article is just a few pages long and
worth a read for someone interested in coding fancy hints in any IF
language. On the other hand, the TADS code is rather hard to follow of
course (though the comments in the file are interesting and very
comprehensive.) Some time I'll code up an example in Alan3, if people
are interested.


http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/programming/tads2/examples/adhint.zip


> >
> > You can make the hints as elaborate as you want, with for example,
> > multiple hints for each room/puzzle,etc and then you have to keep
> > track of which hints have already been given to the player by tracking
> > with an attribute or something.
> > eg:
> >   if hintlevel of hero = 1 then
> >      "look around some more"
> >   elsif hintlevel of hero =2 then
> >      etc
> >   end if.
> >   increase hintlevel of hero.
> >
>

regards,
SteveG.

--- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "ultragrimsocialmen"
<ultragrimsocialmen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In alan-if@yahoogroups.com, "stevgrif2002" <stephen.griffiths@>
> wrote:
>
> > These sort of
> > hints are called 'adaptive hints' in interactive fiction jargon.
> >
> > I did some simple adaptive hints for my old Alan2 game 'Skipping
> > Breakfast' That was quite tricky. You can look at the source-code at
> > the IF Archive. It should be easier to write adaptive hints in Alan3
> > because there's more programming features available now (such as
> > arrays.) There's more elaborate examples in other languages such as
> > TADS also at the Archive which I found helpful all those years ago.
>
> just wondering... couldn't you provide the hero with some specific
> item - a piece of sand, a lock of hair, a blue gem/red gem/green gem
> etc after certain tasks are completed

Yes you could. Only problem would be that the player could later do
something with those objects which are being used to indicate which
hints are no longer relevant -- eg: drop, eat or destroy them. So you
could get some funny effects later in the game such as hints for
puzzles long solved suddenly start being showed to the player again.
Which means you'd have to track in some other way whether the player
had once-upon-a-time possessed the indicator objects. So it would be
easier to just keep track of the solved puzzles in some more abstract
way which the player can't directly affect.

>... or level the hero up each
> time, then in the hint logic, just check for a certain item or put the
> constraints on the current level?
>
> by "level", I'm referring to the hero's level, not the hint level.

> martin
>

Yes. In a simple game where the puzzles can only be solved in a
certain order. A separate level attribute might not even be necessary
-- the game score might be all that's needed to be checked. In many
game designs though, many puzzles can be solved in many different
sequences so a linear indicator like incrementing the hero's 'level'
attribute or checking the overall game-score may not provide enough
information to ascertain which hints are relevant to the player.

So, in such non-linear game designs, for the purpose of offering
relevant hints to the player, it's best to track whether each puzzle
is solved individually. So, in general, you end up managing a matrix
of information -- a list of puzzles for which hints have been coded,
whether each puzzle has been solved (and therefore hints should no
longer be offered to the player), whether a puzzle is yet relevant to
the player (don't want to offer the player a hint for a situation in
the end-game when he's only at the opening scene!) and for each
relevant puzzle which hints have already been displayed (so if he asks
for another hint, give him one he hasn't seen already.)

There's a multitude of ways to track puzzles solved and hint
relevance. So what to implement and how to implement it requires some
strenous thought and design work by the game author. I like this old
'adhint' article from the IF Archive on adaptive hints by Dave Allen /
Stephen Granade (in an earlier email, I think I said the article might
be by Nate Cull which was wrong.) It provides an overview of the logic
for coding a general-purpose hint system along with sample code in the
TADS2 programming language. The article is just a few pages long and
worth a read for someone interested in coding fancy hints in any IF
language. On the other hand, the TADS code is rather hard to follow of
course (though the comments in the file are interesting and very
comprehensive.) Some time I'll code up an example in Alan3, if people
are interested.

http://www.ifarchive.org/if-archive/programming/tads2/examples/adhint.zip

> >
> > You can make the hints as elaborate as you want, with for example,
> > multiple hints for each room/puzzle,etc and then you have to keep
> > track of which hints have already been given to the player by tracking
> > with an attribute or something.
> > eg:
> > if hintlevel of hero = 1 then
> > "look around some more"
> > elsif hintlevel of hero =2 then
> > etc
> > end if.
> > increase hintlevel of hero.
> >
>

regards,
SteveG.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

It's been nearly a year since the latest release. Is the Alan project
over with? Has interest in it faded away, both from authors and
developer?  Sad situation, this.

-- Mike

I also was thinking about alan these days... Is the project alive?

Regards,
Marcos

> over with? Has interest in it faded away, both from authors and
> developer?  Sad situation, this.
>
> -- Mike
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Persevera y perseverarás
http://cositos.com.ar

Thank you for thinking about Alan, and primarily
raising your voices to show your interest. I am still
alive and well ;-) However, with a new family member
(Julia, going on 2 years) and a company which we
rewamped recently (responsive.se, site in swedish, for
now), my time is limited. So, I have had to put Alan on
hold for a while, sorry about that. Perhaps a more
voiced interest from the user community, like the one
you now present, can help me find time...

Any particular interests?

/Thomas


----- Ursprungligt meddelande -----
Från: "Marcos D" <marcos_donnantuoni@...>
Till: <alan-if@yahoogroups.com>
Skickat: den 18 april 2007 21:21
Ämne: Re: [alan-if] Anything going on with Alan?


I also was thinking about alan these days... Is the
project alive?

Regards,
Marcos

> over with? Has interest in it faded away, both from
> authors and
> developer?  Sad situation, this.
>
> -- Mike
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Persevera y perseverarás
http://cositos.com.ar



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/765 -
Release Date: 2007-04-17 17:20

> Any particular interests?

I am interested in the development of the multi-language features of
Alan (conjugation managemente, prefix/postfix use, adjective
positioning, etc.) and of course more oriented to the spanish usage ;-)

I can help in these themes indirectly, providing examples of use...

Marcos

Thank you for thinking about Alan, and primarily
raising your voices to show your interest. I am still
alive and well ;-) However, with a new family member
(Julia, going on 2 years) and a company which we
rewamped recently (responsive.se, site in swedish, for
now), my time is limited. So, I have had to put Alan on
hold for a while, sorry about that. Perhaps a more
voiced interest from the user community, like the one
you now present, can help me find time...

Any particular interests?

/Thomas

----- Ursprungligt meddelande -----
Från: "Marcos D" <marcos_donnantuoni@yahoo.com.ar>
Till: <alan-if@yahoogroups.com>
Skickat: den 18 april 2007 21:21
Ämne: Re: [alan-if] Anything going on with Alan?

I also was thinking about alan these days... Is the
project alive?

Regards,
Marcos

> over with? Has interest in it faded away, both from
> authors and
> developer? Sad situation, this.
>
> -- Mike
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Persevera y perseverarás
http://cositos.com.ar

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/765 -
Release Date: 2007-04-17 17:20

Thomas

I've been trying to use alan-if with a group of young people in a
Pacific Island country for improving their language skills... both in
English and Bishlama... as well as introducing them to computing.

The addition of multimedia materials is very important for their use
as we are creating 'stories' related to their local environment and
want to include visuals, sounds, etc.

At the moment it is a toss-up whether we use alan-if with its rich
ability to keep track of things, scoring, etc., or use html. We can
then embed more media (particularly thumbnail images which can be
expanded in a separate target window) but lose the ease of use and
control of alan-if.

Thanks and best wishes with your personal life as well as alan-if.
     Lynn

>...
>Any particular interests?
>
>/Thomas
>...

--
     Lynn Zelmer          Fax: +61 7 4936 2393
     Box 1414, Rockhampton  QLD 4700 Australia
     http://www.zelmeroz.com

Saluton!

Von: Mike <poornamelessme@...>
> as well as builds for Pocket PC and Amiga. Although I also realize I'm
> probably the only person in the world who cares if a v.3 Amiga interpreter is
> made.

No, you aren't.

         Ad Astra!
         JuL

--
jurtax@...     / ,,Don't do it. Or Try. There is no Do.'' (me)
Jürgen "JuL" Lerch /

"Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ...
Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail

Hi Lynn!

Interesting concept! There has been some occasions on which I have heard about using Alan (and IF tools in general) in teaching. And it seems to be a good match. But I have no personal experience, so it would be interesting to hear about the methods and results.

Particularlly, I'd like to better understand your view of handling and managing multi-media in Alan. Are there features that you would like to see? Other media than pictures and sounds?

Regards,

        Thomas

19 apr 2007 kl. 03.02 skrev A C Lynn Zelmer:

Thomas

I've been trying to use alan-if with a group of young people in a
Pacific Island country for improving their language skills... both in
English and Bishlama... as well as introducing them to computing.

The addition of multimedia materials is very important for their use
as we are creating 'stories' related to their local environment and
want to include visuals, sounds, etc.

At the moment it is a toss-up whether we use alan-if with its rich
ability to keep track of things, scoring, etc., or use html. We can
then embed more media (particularly thumbnail images which can be
expanded in a separate target window) but lose the ease of use and
control of alan-if.

Thanks and best wishes with your personal life as well as alan-if.
Lynn

>...
>Any particular interests?
>
>/Thomas
>...

--
Lynn Zelmer Fax: +61 7 4936 2393
Box 1414, Rockhampton QLD 4700 Australia

http://www.zelmeroz.com

-- 

I wonder how hard it would be to implement this idea?

Chris


Jim Gammon wrote:
> Interest?  Yes.  I'd love to see a model-based architecture format so
> that I can 'draw' the map, identify the particulars involved in each
> 'room', translate the whole thing to code, and then fill in the
> details of text (descriptions, etc.) in the code.  This way, I can see
> what the beast looks like and it helps with continuity.
>
> I'm a visual learner.  I know exactly what I'm after when I'm staring
> at my map or drawing it, BUT after all the time to create  the map is
> used, it becomes hard for me to translate that into code.
>
> --Jim
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Thomas Nilsson <thomas@...>
> To: alan-if@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:44:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [alan-if] Anything going on with Alan?
>
> Thank you for thinking about Alan, and primarily
> raising your voices to show your interest. I am still
> alive and well ;-) However, with a new family member
> (Julia, going on 2 years) and a company which we
> rewamped recently (responsive. se, site in swedish, for
> now), my time is limited. So, I have had to put Alan on
> hold for a while, sorry about that. Perhaps a more
> voiced interest from the user community, like the one
> you now present, can help me find time...
>
> Any particular interests?
>
> /Thomas
>
> ----- Ursprungligt meddelande -----
> Från: "Marcos D" <marcos_donnantuoni@ yahoo.com. ar
> <mailto:marcos_donnantuoni%40yahoo.com.ar>>
> Till: <alan-if@yahoogroups .com <mailto:alan-if%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Skickat: den 18 april 2007 21:21
> Ämne: Re: [alan-if] Anything going on with Alan?
>
> I also was thinking about alan these days... Is the
> project alive?
>
> Regards,
> Marcos
>
> > over with? Has interest in it faded away, both from
> > authors and
> > developer? Sad situation, this.
> >
> > -- Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Persevera y perseverarás
> http://cositos. com.ar <http://cositos.com.ar/>
>
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>
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